Debate on Shism (2 of 4)

I now would like to ask Miranda Quran to respond for 10 minutes Smilla Rahmanir Rahim no one is forcing said Abdullah who say you need to believe in another Quran. I have said that we welcome we welcome anyone. Can someone live this please?

Just as

we welcome anyone who believes in authenticity of color whether it had been Sudoku or they had been said Abdullah Hussaini Marhaba. And we believe in the Quran together, but don't make those wide sweeping claims to all of the Allah ma the Shia. As for his overview of the facilitator, I'm sorry to say I wouldn't agree with everything that he had said. I know it was quite impressive. I know it was quite impressive. But the point is that those 100 pages that I showed you were all from Qi sources, there was the chapter on the Sunni sources was a separate chapter. That particular chapter was only from GE sources, I come to the issue of care. I come to the issue of care who was supposed

to have been cursed by Mimosa did I say was he the only person who have been cursed by him? I'm sorry, there is another person. His name is Zorana even Aryan and Zora even Aryan is one of the most prolific narrators of sheer Hadith Zora even Aryan

is recorded. He belongs to a very famous family of Kufa and he is recorded to have been one of the most prolific narrators from Imam Botha and Imam Saudi, and one of the most reliable narrators despite that in FTR Meriva regional which is with me if they are not even the region of Akashi, in that Book, Al Imam Assad it Rahim Allah says three times LA and Allah who's ora la and Allah who's ora la and Allah Allah may Allah because Allah may Allah because Allah Allah when Allah goes with Allah Solara yet all of you are still practicing those of you ayat of surah in your Salah in your soul in your Nikka you're making you're basing your feet on that same as you might observe Allah but

when it comes to sejati ministry No, I'm sorry so yeah, he was you know, cursed by the Imam I'm sorry I don't fall for that. That is not objective. You see that the yard is really a nation's you want to reject because he knows certain things on tarrif but when say a when when Zorana needs

to I have a number two is a Hadith I don't have a number two is a Hadith but a friend of Jesus called Mohammed even Muslim is claimed to have a 30,000 the Hadith or Yamapi and 16,000 a Hadith from him is an imam Saudi, and he is cursed by the Imam as well and you accept these narrations and you expect me to when it comes to sejati to saying that no, let's leave the Yari alone. He's sorry, I cannot go for that to come back. Okay. Now I don't have enough time. As you see time has been cut now. Said Abdullah Hussein. He says the she I do not have a book called aside.

Okay. It says we don't have a book

called Surya I would like to bring to his attention that in recent years. In recent years, a book has been published. A book has been published in Beirut called sahih al Caffee by Syed Mohammed Belkin Alba booty, now much more than two years ago, a friend of mine bought it from Beirut some five years ago.

Mohammed Al Baghdadi, in which he collected all of these, all of these, what shall I call it now? The Saudi spy tamale coffee. Now the vitamin coffee and coffee has been judged. The rewire tunnel coffee has been judged. It has been graded according to authenticity. But when did this grading of authenticity take place? I will tell you something about our coffee. It is only 1000 years after the journal when the grading of our coffee started taking place. So the author of our coffee himself in the beginning of his book, he mentions that there are Hadith which he is going to need in this book are going to be sahih Hadith. So therefore the Allah mother she has said to the problem, that they

could hammer them with academia, the early Allah regarded this book as Sofia, give the later alum, I don't think it is. And they applied a certain criterion whereby out of 16,121, a hadith, they say 5072 hours a year, that's a very small percentage out of 16,000, you know, 11,000 can go and then 134 Hassan 101,001 18 worth 302 coffee and 9485 I believe this year is mentioned by the use of an Barani and he's done it usable, but Ronnie has done this particular statistics which is given us here on the work of Mullah Mohammed darkened emergency in his shock. In his comment in Alkaff. He called me out. Every Hadith was judged by Him. Up to Safavi times, the owner of the car had no

coherent system of judging a hadith, who Laney had no system of judging a hadith the first person recorded to have introduced a system of methodologically separating what is authentic from what is not authentic inside revealed in eventos. Some says Allama use of emotiva and Haley he started a system this system was eventually applied by others. It was only then that she would find out oh, this is sorry, and that is life. But up to that point in time. Everything was regarded sorry as he states in his mocha Dima, I have an auto translation of all coffee with me

The author is an alum from India and he discusses he raises his point. He says How come Collini says he's sorry, and others have applied this system? He says it's a matter of istilah is merely a matter of technical terms, according to academia, all of it is upon Buddha Akkadian Well, there is difference in technical terms, I want to bring your attention. Sorry, my throat is dry.

Sorry about this wasting. But I think many of you will be will be aware of this book here. It's called the right path. The right path is a translation of El Mirage, and Mirage, or de sade, Abdul Hussain Sharafuddin, a scholar of this age, he didn't live back in those days, I'm quoting from page 480 of this book, and he tells us

four of the Summarized books was so excellently compiled, that they are treated by the sheer ease as authoritative texts on the fundamentals and observances of the faith and creed. The four books are al Caffee. Secondly, VB three ellipses, a list of SA four Mala.

These books are successive, successive meaning uninterrupted chains of narration, and the accuracy of the content is beyond doubt.

Here you have it, anyone can check the reference it is with me. I would love to go along with what's a double I in fact, I welcome statements of a person like him, who is prepared to attest to the authenticity of the Quran. But I would like a bit of objectivity and honesty, to say that Mirza Hola, Mirza Jose Nolita, Barsi, and Ali, even Ibrahim Al pumi. And all of us other people, we're not merely we're not merely to criticize them to declare them out of the fog of Islam for rejecting the authenticity of the Quran. To the to declare them out of the fold of Islam, declare Ali Ibrahim Al Kumi, without the aid of seal to prove that the Quran has been interpolated. Don't say you criticize

him say you declared him a cough. And so you reject on account of that 1/3 of the rebuttal cuff you prepared to reject it? Are we prepared to do that? Are we prepared to be objective enough to carry things to its logical conclusions and not play a game of sophistry of playing around with terms

to take things to the logical conclusions? They were a few other things that were mentioned. The issue of Do I have time?

I have four minutes the issue of a Hadith from the Sunni sources. They speak about it being different from what they were once upon a time. The issue a hadith quoted from Muslim Ahmed Abdullah Hassan says I want to inform the brothers and the sisters sitting here that unlike our GI brothers, we do not have a belief of a SMA we do not believe that the Sahaba or the Allahu Anhu Am I assume? We do not believe that they were free from error. Yes, Vichy I believe that the Imams are free from error. So when you have Jonathan Asad, he tells me that this particular area of the Quran which says that

a call a volume Allah interview ona Illa Raja matura was not like that either either. In addition to that those who understand Arabic can go along with me that will translate it for the rest. It says Ali Ibrahim This is not taken from sejati Mind you I just opened randomly. This is not taken from care. This is taken from the tafsir Valley Naval Academy I'm gonna waste some of my time and tell you something about this stuff. See a valued neighbor I'm welcoming the regional the narrator's of led by Mel who me are regarded as all of them authentic. This I can speak for you from a book called Mirage mo Fakhar by Abu Talib at Digital at Tabrizi, printed in 1991, where he gives a list of all

authentic and always all authentic, reliable narrators and he says any Narrator whose name appears in Alabama, I'm unconvinced of seer is reliable. I'm quoting from that particular Tafseer now I'm quoting that of Syria and says I live named Rahim and Mohammed Abdullah Ibrahim, Muhammad Hussain and Mohammed Messina and I'm married Mr. Juan Felipe Jamil Rocky and jurby Libya Xenial geography call Carla Abu Jaffa Ali Salam

Nasrallah, Ji Bella Isla, Allah Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam behavioral IoT haka. Gibreel brought this idea to Rasulullah Salam Salam like this not like it's in the Quran but like this What call a volley Munna Ali Ali Mohammed in in WA owner in La Jolla matura. You tell me if say it Abdullah Hussein is claim of these being merely differences in wording notable difference in text you tell me Is this the difference in text which is difference in meaning? This is interpolating the text of the Quran. Yeah, you are suitable if mounsey Lele can be Rebecca fee Ali Yin, and then it is said haka, wala. He knows a lot. Thus the ayah came down. This is not Tafseer This is 10 zeal in

another place. The robbery that the sooner they mom asks the Imam is the stuffs zero Tenzin and he tells him No, this is Tenzin. This is not Tafseer. So let me come to this last few points. I'm running up this issue, right I was speaking about Abdullah Mossad system or whether they were not part of the Quran, Abdullah hidden Mossad is a fallible man. He heard Rasulullah Salallahu Salam teaching them our weather thing. He thought this was a dua that was being taught by Rasulullah Salah Islam, he wasn't aware of this actually the Quran, the other ayah Surah to Lhasa was

The long you see the differences, the Fussel between the Sutras, the fact where the surah ends and where the next Surah starts. That was by the revelation of Bismillah. Allah Tala would reveal Bismillah and tell Rasulullah salaam that's where it goes. That's where it goes. And that's what this is how the sutras were separated from one another. So it might you must remember while Quran is being revealed is different from its complete set after revelation. And remember another thing we believe in something, I will not speak for our shear brothers, I will say we believe in something called the squatty lava. Therefore all of these Akbar which we have all of these about which appear

in our in our means abrogation of the idea is based upon only hit Allah Allah Tala says man and segment Latinos yeah not to behind him in her we have a belief of nurse is revealed and they will revealed revealed once upon a time and taken back by Allah Tala. Therefore some Sahabi might remember something he's not Muslim like a sheer Imam, he is hi mr. Swamy he can make a mistake he remember something which was once upon a time he had forgotten what exists that it was he was not aware of that it had been repealed. So we have a valid way of explaining this. The car do not have a valid way of explaining these particular Ahadi that come in here. So therefore we the hallucinogen

Mara code for 1400 years. Never one of our Allama had cited that this Quran is Mahara yet several Allah ma this era Oh, I wish I could give you the names of all of them would say that Abdullah Hussein requested from me if I can, could have time to do that because I was criticized for that. But no, I'm not producing these names I can produce. I'll give you give me a minute. All right, I'll just run through a few names.

JazakAllah

olive, Neva Lima Amin Yamato Allah, Muhammad Al Faisal Kashani Ahmed Mansour waterbar say Mohammed Belkin emergency Mohammed Nam Norman and MoveIT unlike what said Abdullah Hussein he says Mohammed bin Norma that MoveIT has two statements one in his book called masala saraiya where he states one thing and one in his book our Elon Makala where you state something else so I will count even minus said Abdullah can count him in Islam. I will Hassan Al Amin Sultan Al Quran Sonny Adnan Al Baqarah, usually Bharani unorthodoxy how people learn Hashem and who and made them with Bacani Mohammed miniapp Kobelco lady Mohammed masala, yes, Sheikh Mohammed Hassan Safar, they really can even give

money. So you Dildar Ali Al Hindi Mohamed El Kashani.

Okay, there were a few other points that I would read but time is up so I have a lot of subjects to cover. And I think the listeners out there are really being informed about the issue of tariffs of Quran the difference of opinion between Alesana and atashi.

Now, to the final 10 minutes I would be fair and give share Hussein if the final 10 minutes and then we will go on to the next topic after a five minute break. After a five minute break we will go on to the subject of the authority of Al Bayt in light of Quran and Sunnah. Final 10 minutes

Smilla Rahmanir Rahim for the information of our Leonard brother and the audience here I have to emphasize that the first person who actually introduced the system of valuation of Hadith in history of Islam, not only in our little bit school of thought,

was Mr. Masada.

When he was asked that we receive a lot of news, a lot of Hadith we hear that you say are the other Imams saying this and that how we can know that this is from you.

Including that hadith which has been narrated from that book, which we have written lots of book to reject that book. So I can't accept that one as a book of authentic book in my 100 bed school of thought if you want to give me reference from a book which I have written already books against it's it is not going to be acceptable. In my Masada Ali Salaam is the only one at the beginning who has introduced to us the system how to value her this. And that value is only valid in a Hallenbeck school of thought because our Sunni brothers they don't believe in that value. What is that value? That value is any Hadith ma Al Quran for Hulu, from our holofoil Quran Fatra who you hear a lot of

things from us. But immediately when you find it to be against Quran, throw it out, no matter who has narrated, if it is Aurora, if it is this one or that one, whoever is the narrator of that Hadees immediately when that is against the text of Quran, we all try and get out in any Hadith

narrated by whoever in history of Sunni or Shia who says that the Quran is distorted and made tarrif is against the test of Quran, no matter who is the Messiah, no matter who has said that Hadees it is rejected based on that particular criteria. That's one. Secondly, I am talking out of my intensive research

that within the Sunni world we have 40 people who believe. Listen to this very carefully.

Within this Sunni world we have 40 of the great all of us who believe in tarrif of Quran.

But we are people of investigation of the truth. We don't read this book when I quoted those Hadith says to him that there is more of as attain external or Azov was supposed to be there. I know this is not the opinion of my Sunni brothers

that's not that's why I don't say and I don't write templates and I don't distributed around the world say PC it's written in say Buhari, it's written in half is it the half is written in German suit, you see what the other one says are Abu Musa or hurry from from the first column the second Khalifa I don't highlight this I don't bring it because I know that is against the majority of the Sunni Blood Brothers belief and it is against the text of Quran so doesn't have no value even if it's written. So we expect the same to be dealt with our Hadith says, we tell you and we have okay now compared to 40, of the of the of the Allama of our Sunni brothers who narrated the distortion of

the Hadees three from Shia school of thought which of those three is the names that he can give, and he can't give me more than those two names. And also I challenge that all of those names that the brother mentioned is in my list, those are the names that was in my list as those people which I have got confirmation and I can produce for you the page of the books which they believe in the same Quran without external without bless so that's one and secondly

when we say that the coffee is authentic booking in shear world, we believe regarded and compared to the other books that we have this full book is more authentic, it's more authentic. But no one in history of animal bait school of thought has come to say that ossola coffee from A to Z it is acceptable. But contrary to that we have in Sunni world and I am challenging him and anyone else who can say no in say Buhari you don't accept it 100% You either you must change the name so he you say this is how do you sir Buhari? Very good. Alright then I'm not going to ask this question anymore. But if you call this book say hello Buhari brothers sisters here so here Buhari narrates from Qatar

that there was I attachment Quran and it's not dead. And that issue of NASA Carol Mansukh brothers that is not applicable here. Why? Because nasef and Mansu both of those two is has to be in Quran

we have this one ayah in Quran and here there is another ayah in Quran which is not set and that is Mansukh. And we don't have none of them. But this hadith has come in say Buhari. Now who believes in Talib of Quran me Are you? I don't say that, that you believe even if it is written in your most authentic book of you. That's why I'm saying you're pushing me to accept something which I don't believe. Accept me as your brother. I believe in the same Quran that you have.

Okay, the same Quran that you have, that's one

and then anywhere anytime, you are ready to make text fields to make text field of those people who believe in your books, including in PSA has certain including Omar Al Khattab who says if tonight Muslim Quran, anytime you are ready to make touch with them, we are going to make a tweet of those three or four guys who believe in type of Quran in our history. That is to and also let me remind you of something that we have made textfield of them and that is Sharif Morteza has actually is one of the almost who believe that whoever believes in Tel Aviv of Quran he is a confirmed coffee. That is not the believer majority of Shia Allah mas we don't do tech field. But if one day you make

Techfit of those people, when which in your book has told you and me and it's written in your book, that Quran is extra or more 200 Words or Less or whatever, then I will accept and I will also make that fit the other one is

any Hadith which is narrated from 100 beta a masala which he narrated one Hadith is not acceptable. I first compare it with Quran if it is true, then it will accept but still my questions is remained unanswered. Why I can't find this reference in that book.

Why I cannot find

the references written on this pamphlet and published by hundreds of 1000s across South Africa and around the world. In this book

If I find one, and that is out of context, while the whole chapter says we believe in the same Quran, out of context in this pamphlet, it has been selected. And this is the information that you get in the Masters, you don't have access to the other books. So brothers, that that story doesn't really work with that a little bit school of thought we don't believe in any other product.

And special request and special circumstances Dr. Kiran has requested more time on this topic. In order to be fair, if I give him five minutes, I'll have to give an additional five minutes to shake Hussaini under special request, because we have further several topics to cover which was agreed upon between the two parties and therefore I'm going to allow five minutes more to his Eminence Mallanna Kiran

it's Lindsay was beating around bushes. You know.

I've quoted from this book, a word from a Shia scholar who says he saw here if you believe is different, at least, except that Sunni Shia was called and said something different point. That's one point. Let me go on to the next point that the fear of Martha Martha has made that phenol mourtada lived in the fifth century he died 400 and some odd he made that fear of those orlimar from those days already yet after him they came scores of olam of this year who still maintain the same view Hershey mal Bharani came at least 600 years after say Mustafa say Matata make that fear but Hashem will Bharani is one of the highest regarded scholars of of the safari period will not back in

magic. Why can we not come to a simple point and that is whoever stated this must be a curfew

and apply the rules of comfort to him then. As for Okay, a comparison, St. Abdullah said Abdullah says that they will be prepared to make that fear if we make that fear of those people who have narrated these things I say I say that those of the Asuna who have narrated any of these above never made a claim that the Quran is Mahara. There is a difference between narrating something and stating something in the she is cool. They have narrated these above and I've read to you from the books that they stated and the Quran is Mahara. They stated they put it on ebay but I'm an AMI stated in the letter introduction of the Quran that there are many verses that are different. There's

different from Omar Abu hubub saying there was an idea that was repealed because that is I asked you is that against the Quran and Omar says now that was repealed? Or is that in conformity with Allah tell us was bases man and Suchman 18 Oh, Lucia naughty because you remain how Amelia is that against it always in conformity with you? On another point, Imam Jafar Asada, Guatemala toward the Shia, a particular principle says, said Abdullah Hussein, he he told him a principle. I remember him for a Saudi died before the year 200 before they hit one of those very long ago. How long did it take this year to apply this principle? How come so many years went by hundreds of years over 1000 years went

by when none of them could apply the simple principle and say that these are hard? Why do you still find ASIMO Barney and fatal Kashani and by the way, said Abdullah Hussein, he was wrong when he said the book was off by fatal Kashani. As I showed, it is unwritten on the book there's no Hadith catch any further question is one in the same person? That's a biographical point, by the way, but

let me go into another point. Now, I was saying that how come it took them so long to apply this principle? They learn the process of am Java Saudi, and yet when we come to the statements of the alumni find none of them applying the principle except for those few I'm sorry, when said Abdullah has any contests my list, I want to tell him I was only reading from the from the on the index of the book at the end. If you wanted I could read each and every quotation is not a matter of who's in my list, and who's in his list. It's a matter of what those people have stated, if you want the words, if my chairperson will have given me the time I would have coded to you or the words of that

translated to the words and you will know who is speaking the truth and who is camouflaging the truth here.

A last point.

We are in 1991 or 14. What was this now? We are now already 2000. But in 1991 l coffee was reprinted a coffee was reprinted with the tactic of a person called Lala material Muhammad Jawad al Fateh and Dr. The use of an Bukhari they printed this coffee it's brand new, I bought it when he was very, very new. And yeah, but volume one page 231 He calls a hadith what a Sufi Asana, sorry Asana each and every of all we each and every Nelida in the center is a fickle Ravi and I'm going to ask you again just see how long it took them to apply the criteria of Imam Saudi even year we couldn't apply it 1991 they still couldn't apply? Because it says that years I have the Quran and the IRP is

Walmart salami public, Amir Rasulullah Maulana you have

Walmart salami public Amira Zulu wala Nabi Mira, Saudi, Arabian Wallah Mohammed Delphine, I asked those who are who have in this in this gathering Do you know the what I read it to you well Marcin let me publican because Julio wala Nabi and eleider terminal cache tone of unity. This says here, if anyone wants to come close, you can see between brackets as it appears in the Walmart salami public university.

There

So one point this formal coffee, that's not the point that I want to make, I want to come to the footnote. And the footnote says, This is not too large it is item number 52. workers who were in nama who were fee payable at the earliest Vitaliy Musallam were who will be affected Darlene Bucha data, this is the payroll that I asked you does that do that? Do that as we'll have a different theory of the Quran then what we have this note was added now, in this century, which we are living, this wasn't added, then how long? How long before we started applying the criterion of Imam sodic How long

should you send it to respond and then we'll have a five minute break insha Allah as requested

Rahmani Raheem,

the brother had a very strange

statement

that whatever is come in the books of our Sunni brothers,

which some of the Hadith says that the chapter azab was not 73 But it was 200 Higher.

And the other

Hadith says that this waste was in Quran and it's not here for Ayesha and rate that we were used to read chapter azab, which was over 200 And now it's less that is not believing in tarrif. In Quran I mean Azov is 73. And then immediately you believe in most authentic book, which is Sangha, Bihari

Sahiba Buhari, from who from the first from second Khalifa

it's not tarrif

that is really something which no one can accept, anyone with a logical brain cannot accept that if you instead of 73 is in chapter Azov you put to unretire or you add chapter regimen Quran is not going to be tarrif, that is not going to be acceptable under any circumstances. That is one.

Secondly

still I am on my challenge, that if one day you come,

we can prove that this is tarrif. If Azov is 200, if it's tarrif, if reg is according in the Quran, it is tarrif. No one can deny that if one day you can come and make textfield of those people who has done any, we also will go into that. That is what Secondly, in history of Shia school of thought, at least we have one

in five century who has done so what in the world of Palestine, we don't have even that one. That's true. Now who is more strong, believing that in adultery for Quran

and I did not know that a brother is just reading the the index, you see, when I read for you from this books, this is the summary of reading at least 400 book, I go to that book, I page it and I find my reference, and then I will add one name here. For me to be able to add another name, I have to go to the other book, find this really, this this column, or this will have this or this professor talks about this idea or not, will believe in this or not for myself, because I am not a sheep.

I have to go to the source myself for myself to see. I'm not like the other people who just read this one and say she has a coffee because it's written on page 77 They have gotten Asakura

b i go to shotcrete. And open it I don't find a sari is not acceptable. So that's Adam.

And then I did not get any response concerning the Gnostic and monks who also if the brother believes that those are yours, which is in the books of our Sunni brothers and I can go ahead with the with the rest of them, there is about at least 350 Hadith, not one or two. And I've got all of them here written in a time is not allowing us for me to go I just read three or four for you. If

300 over 350 Hadith says in the most authentic books of our Sunni brothers can be just ignored. While I have written books against those people who says type of Quran while one book has been written by the books of our Sunni brothers by the lamas to prove that I am more stronger in that point that there is no tarrif now 14 Mufasa 1440 Mohawk this in the most authentic books of our Sunni brothers has been ignored only three people which we have written books against them has been taken into consideration sorry that is not going to be right manner. So this the unsaid still for this conflict, which is responsible for bringing differences between us is not there and also the

response for nasef and Mansukh that both of them has to be in Quran

because we have Nassif who made pneus of that Quran we can't remove them from Quran we have got a lot of verses in Quran which is not safe and there is a lot of verses which is Mansukh we can't remove them from Quran it's a it's a part of Quran and if this is one of them and Sookie ways the Nasik and it has to be added or has been removed. So brothers, I don't believe let me say I don't believe under any circumstances that the Sunni brothers has got another Quran because I can see when I go to Hajj they will give me the same Quran which I have and I am coming to my country and print the same Quran which I have been given. So why I must now waste my time and your time and plenty of

1000s of millions of people around the world to prove that you have another product please, that is completely illogical. Thank you. Well for the listeners You have been listening to both the scholars on the sub subject it needs great more depth in depth discussion. However, we do not have time for that you have been listening to the both opinions and you may draw your own conclusions from what you heard from the two scholars. We are going to break now for five minutes and when you come back, we'll be addressing the subject of authority of Al Bayt in the light of Quran and Sunnah.