AlimProgram – ALIM Hangout with Ubaydullah Evans

This will go hand in hand at the Lehi

beautiful in the study, one Uber billahi min shahadi fusina Woman sejahtera Lena how many had to Hitler who for them within their home in New Zealand for the idea that was

in the allaahu nursery, but that was under Mohammed Abdullah Sulu from

A salaam aleikum. And I want to issue a warm welcome to everybody that is tuning in. And joining us for what I hope will be an edifying conversation this evening, I have the great honor of being in conversation this evening with someone that doesn't need an introduction to anyone who's familiar with our programming at Ireland, the American Learning Institute for Muslims.

Dr. Sherman Jackson,

a founder of Ireland over 20 years ago,

and still very active, with your organization still teaching, still very concerned about the literacy of Muslims in the US. And we know that this is a watershed moment, you know, he and I were speaking. And we said, you know, this is a watershed moment, a lot is happening in this moment. What do you think about hosting a conversation in which we could converse and also people that maybe have questions that they would like to pose to you would have an opportunity to ask their questions. And he graciously, you know, obliged, you know, so here we are. So I want to come down to Jackson. I think I'm saying I'm gonna have to live with but uh, Catherine, how are you? hamdulillah hamdulillah

Michelle is a lot different than when I call you in the wintertime. And you always joking with me saying, Let me cut my air conditioner down. Well, you know, I have to instead of joking with you today, I have to I have to submit an apology. Many people may hear in the background, my alarm, my smoke alarm beeping I changed all the batteries. But I don't know what what what the problem is. So the watch so I'm just going to apologize about that upfront.

I think it's one of the top of the steps that I can't get to and they're all in series so they just keep going on so I'm just going to apologize for that.

Enemy Hamdulillah you know, that happens in my place too. And it drives me nuts man. No, I'm immune to that. I'm just apologize for you guys.

So I want to go straight to it. Um,

you know, this, you know, we were speaking maybe a couple of days ago. And you said in some

inexplicable way, this event right, this police killing and the protests surrounding this event, the righteous indignation and the more outrage surrounding this event has kind of Americanized the Muslim community.

I would like you to explore that. I mean, what I know it was profound when I heard you say it I thought he's right.

Would you would you would you would you would you expound a bit.

Okay.

And Hamdani learners the no one has the filament when I study, whenever the language even puts in, women say Dr. Melina

Villa woman unitive. Allah had a shadow Allah Allah, Allah Allah, Allah, Allah. Muhammad

sallallahu alayhi wa sallam rubbish. Rashmi Saturday will certainly Emily Washington, Dr. Melissa Ali, will finish up the Nuptse. Alternatively, certainly when

we read the article, but

first of all, before I get into an answer to your question, I really want to send out my heartfelt condolences to the family of George Floyd. And I say that I think that you know, we have to, to think about what this kind of event means to family members, the most especially I'm thinking about his young daughters. These are girls who I think he has two daughters.

But for his family members in general,

they have to grow up in a society. I mean, that video of their father being murdered like that, in broad daylight, in front of crowds of people will be out there forever, and they won't have to live with the idea that I live in a country, my country where the people who are supposed to protect me, the people who are supposed to make me feel safe, actually did this to my father.

And there are people still in places high and low, who want to sort of diminish the whole

horrific nature of what happened or even seek to either exonerate or lighten the accountability of the people who are responsible for this. And they have to live in this as their country, facing that reality. So I pray that Allah will, will send His mercy upon them, that he will guide them to a relationship with Him, that will, will will will show them that there's that there's someone bigger than all of this, and that ultimately, this whole thing will be straightened out. Nobody's going to get away with anything.

I just want to put that out there. For me, I mean, I think

the second thing I want to I want to, I want to say is, is the following. I think that, you know, when I when I speak, in America today, one of the things that I want to make clear is that we have to, if I'm to be understood to me, and this conversation has been understood this debate,

I have to be recognized as a black American Muslim.

And by that I mean that those are two parts of me, that make me who I am. Sort of like Kimberly Crenshaw, speaks about the intersectionality, she talked about how,

you know, there have been many women who have been killed by police as well. And to focus only on the relationship between police and blacks, particularly black males, does not necessarily speak to her perspective, because she's a black female. And so her blackness and her femaleness has to be recognized simultaneously.

And what I'm saying is that, that my Muslim is, and my blackness has to be recognized simultaneously. Because if you're listening to me, just as a black, you won't appreciate what I have to say, as a Muslim. And if you listen to me, or listening to me only as a Muslim, you will understand that I have an attachment to a history in this country that is in part responsible for where I am, both positively and negatively. And that is

what I have sought to get a slam to speak effectively to.

I've been seeking to get Islam to speak to that history, who makes me who makes my environment who makes the reality that we live today, what it is. So I just want to make that that clear. So for example, you know, I think

I think protest is absolutely necessary. And I think that that the more pressure that can be brought to bear on the powers that be of the better. But when you ask me about something like looting, then I have to speak as a Muslim. And then I have to say that this is something that Prophet alayhi salat wa salam would not have approved. Now, if you just listen to me, you know, as a black American, you might think that while I'm being soft on the powers that be, I'm not at all, I'm simply stating what my position as a Muslim is. And quite frankly, I think that we as Muslims, especially in this moment, we have to be careful that we don't lose the Muslim side of who we are, that we get to we

get acclimated to speaking in a manner that we feel that we cannot fully express our Muslim pneus at the same time that we speak to issues of social justice, racism or what have you. No, absolutely. No, absolutely. I just wanted to follow up. And I wanted to say that, you know, I think sometimes when we speak as Muslim, teachers, preachers, public intellectuals, people can sometimes forget that we have a real connection to these issues. You know, I'm not talking about this in any theoretical way. Right. And

this is not for me and a distraction. These are concrete realities that I've dealt with myself, and that I feel for my children, you know, so just thinking about my own history, I don't have to stretch to understand fear that George Floyd must have felt because I've had similar experiences with law enforcement myself, you know, the first negative experience happening when maybe I was 11 or 12 years of age. So these are

beta unfulfilling man. From Chicago. Okay. All right. Well, so we know what we're talking about. No doubt about it. So you know, one of the things I want to add to what was just said, one of the things I want to add to what was just said, and this, I think, speaks to the conversation that we're having here, everybody has two sides of who they are. I mean, if you if you're an Arab Muslim, you're being an Arab as a part of who you are as being a Muslim. The same if you you know, your your, your your, your, your South Asian Muslim, I mean,

And this is part of what we have to negotiate as a community. I think that we have to do a better job of sort of reconnecting ourselves with a kind of pluralistic mentality that comes out of our Islamic tradition, so that we can actually begin to deal with each other in our fullness, without that threatening us in either aspect of who we are. Because that sense of being threatened by the fact that, you know, you know, this desi sister happens to be connected to this, and this black American brother has to be connected to that. And then we have to come into the shared space as Muslim. I mean, that generates these sort of underground cultural guerrilla wars, that leaves

everybody insecure. Absolutely. Right. I mean, rather than recognizing the fact that this is who we always, we've always been, and I think that, you know, I had a, I had a professor in college who was actually a non Muslim, and he would say, you know, that, that, that Islam was able to do something that the Christian West was not able to do, and that is that, you know, you have Hanafis, who on a religious basis, disagree with these manatees disagree with the chateaus disagree with his handlers, and yet they can all recognize each other as equally Orthodox and equally authoritative. They don't have to express their Islam in the exact same way. All right, they don't have to necessarily be

attached to the same issues in terms of their socio political priorities. All right. But what they are attached to as Muslims can always hold them together because as Muslim blacks as a black American Muslim, as a white American Muslim, as a basically Muslim, I'm always going to be trying to deal with those issues through the prism of Islam. Absolutely, no, absolutely. No. Well, well stated. So I mean, so what do you what do you what do you tell us about the Americanization? Is that what? Yeah, well, or did you want to go into something else? I'm sorry? No, no, this one, I want to, because all I meant by that is that is that in mind, over 40 years of being a Muslim, I have not

seen the Muslim community emote, in the way that I saw it emote over an issue that primarily affected

indigenous Americans. And I use that word indigenous, as problematic as it is, but black American Muslims in the manner that it has, and in such a way that pulled it in to a broader con conversation and a broader context. That speaks to the very heart of what defines America. And that is race. Yeah, that's right. Not class. All right. And not even primarily religion. I'm not saying I mean, isn't that important. But that's not the fault line in America, the fault line in America has always been race. And what I saw in the last couple of weeks, is Muslims really sort of emoting over identifying with sort of, in fact, seeing a stake, in a sense, in, you know, this whole racial fault

line in America, and not all of the responses have been ones that I would apply or, you know, but But again, the fact that the focal point was the fault line in America. That's what I meant, in terms of this issue, sort of American eyes in the Muslim community. Mr. And I know in the past you've written about, and you always, maybe now we won't have to as much. But in the past, you've always given disclaimers, I've heard you say on many occasions. I'm not saying this because I'm black. I'm saying this because I have a stake in the future of Islam in America. We need to centralize a we need to need to take an interest in solidifying our relationship with the black

American, the greater black American community history and tradition, because if anyone is going to be our band who has and the process they set was salam was given some insulation from the attacks of Quraysh Mecca because he had this affiliation, that he could not be discredited as a Hashimi. If anyone is going to be our bamboo Hashem in the United States, it's the black American community because of its indigeneity because of its unquestioned belongingness in the in the US

In this communal conversion to Islam,

I've always seen that message I've been with you many venues, it said people wrestle with it. Do you think now do you expect that message now to resonate differently? I don't know. I mean, you know what to be to be honest with you, um, you know, maybe I need to stop reading news reports, you know, stop watching the news and things like that. But, you know, you're inundated with so much. It's, you know, it's sort of hard, you know, to be to be clear about everything you're really thinking. I mean, I have not fully processed all of this to the point of any sort of absolute conclusion yet. But what I would say, is this, what I would hope what I would hope is that this issue, would would

drive home to the Muslim community at large, how critically important, this black American Muslim contingent is, this has become an issue that has reverberated throughout the world, not just in America. That's right, right, throughout the world. And what I'm saying is that to an extent, I mean, we we have I call it a miracle on other occasions, but we have the advantage of being very solidly in that into that community. All right. It's sort of like, you know, every time a major black American spokesperson speaks in the context of black American history, all right, they're very likely to mention Malcolm or to mentor Muhammad Ali. I mean, you so you can't do American history,

black American history without a Muslim contingent in there without Muslim representation in there. And that is huge. And I would hope that we would recognize the significance of that community, again, again, as a means of establishing our at homeless in America in such a way where we can pivot from where we are, all right, which is constantly trying to tell people who we aren't constantly, we're not terrorists. We're not this, we're not that pivot from that, to actually being able to educate America about what Islam is.

I would ask this, I mean, just in general, how many of us could go outside right now and ask the average person walking on the street?

What is Islam? What is Islam? What does Islam represent? What is the key concept of Islam? I mean, how many people were mentioned to hate

SubhanAllah.

Today, the point, all right, and so and so getting to the point where we can actually be self representative. And I think that that's part of the whole point of, you know, sort of a sort of Islamic phobic industry to keep Muslims on the defense, right, to the point where they spent all of their time. Okay, trying to watch other people's descriptions off of them, as opposed to try to promote their own understanding of who they are, of who their religion is. And in the process of that developing the language and the conceptual tools that will enable that religion to resonate in this atmosphere. Absolutely. Right.

about race in America, then you cannot establish any moral authority. That's right. You got about and that's why, you know, one of my feelings in this time is that this is really our moment. You know, if Muslims are obeyed, let me let me let me let me

know, I think but, but we have to understand that there's some liabilities out there as well. All right, because we look,

look

we were we're a bit behind the curve. We have not developed

the language I don't know there was I hesitate to say names because this is a very charged environment and you know, you don't want any more controversy.

Very, very, very moving speech yesterday made Anderson Cooper cry when he talked about the fact that you know, black Americans are community that have been in this country Vonda years, hated and despised and subjugated and marginalized and oppressed and yet through it all, they refuse to give up their love. All right, that's right. They don't hate these people. Now.

That's that's a Chris

Language, I'm not against that language. All right. But is that the language of Islam?

Okay, we don't develop a language of Islam, we ended up in trapped in somebody else's language, going with that language will take us all right, without realizing where that language may take us. No, I agree. And this is what I was.

What what keeps me from violating the boundaries of decency and morality, even in my attempt to address whatever I need to address, all right. It's not the fact that I love them. But the fact that I have Taqwa that I love Allah, that I'm conscious of my duty to Allah, and that no matter what they do, that will not dissuade me from recognizing the boundaries that Allah has set. I mean, I know this last last conversation, we had you were talking about the Aqeedah as kind of the insertion of a Muslim subjectivity. Yes, that that guides our engagement with the world. Yes. Striving to see that prison

in front of everything else that we see. Right. And we need to we need language. You know, I think one of the real I'd like to get your thoughts on this. But I think one of the real misfortunes about al Qaeda as a discourse is that our key they got frozen into debates about the SMI and the C fat between selfies and Ashanti's. And a lot of us when we think about Aqeedah, a lot of us don't think our key that has any practical utility, beyond debate and argumentation. But when we're dealing with issues like these, the insertion of that subjectivity, in terms of how we see the world is absolutely necessary. How do we get back to talk? I mean, you actually, you know, this is why I

think you're a good person to pose the question to, I think, in your book, Islam and the problem of black suffering, attempted to deploy the discourse of our key that and the language of al Qaeda to an issue that was pressing and relevant. What do you think we need to do in order to kind of give that effort a multiplier effect? Well, let me let me, let me be honest with you, I don't think we need to do what I did in that book. I mean, what I was doing in that book, I mean, that, that that's a part of it. That's a part of theology, because theology is part of how we describe God in a manner

that enables us to sort of talk about God with other people. All right, so we can we can talk about God through the intellectual constructs, all right, through which we understand him. All right, but I can't it to me and this is where the missing link is. And I, I realized that, you know, you know, it's so bad that even the word Aikido now scares people. Yeah. Because they think, well, here we go, again, you know, back to the races, let me give you a sense of what I'm talking about. To me, the important aspect of Aikido is not simply the conceptual aspect, the conceptual aspect is here.

And that's an important point of departure. But the aim of Arcada is to go from here to here, you can't see it, because my butt to the heart, that first of all, that those understandings become a fundamental part of who you are, they become a part of your instinctual self, not just your conceptual self, but your instinctual self. And let me give you an example that really said that 10 years ago, um, that really gave me a means that, you know, really think about this on a deeper level.

All of us, as a matter of aqidah will, will, will acknowledge that, as Muslims, we're supposed to rely upon Allah ultimately, but anybody disagree with that? No, no, I mean, and what he is one of the names of Allah, all right.

All of us know this conceptually.

All right, the question is, how do we go from here to here to here all right. So that it manifests itself in terms of how we respond instinctually to what places us in life and let me give you the example that this this was Brother shared with me.

And

now just give the example

and ride up to six I think it was, I will allemaal duty, was sentenced to death.

They don't need to get into the details.

And his jailer tells the story.

His jail it tells a story. He says,

As a jailer.

I've seen men age 30 years and one night.

Right? That they know they're going to the galleys.

They're going to die the next morning. And you see them at six o'clock in the evening, the night before you see them at 6am. The next morning, you don't even recognize them. They a 30 years I've seen this. But he said this guy,

man

went to sleep and snort. So bad I love comfortable. I'm comfortable. Allah, is my wife killed, not here. Here, here. I'm comfortable executing me in the morning. I'm asleep. You're not gonna hear here. All right. And this is not a platform. I'll do it in terms of his thought. I mean, I have my differences intellectually with him. But in terms of our key that this is what it's all about. Now, no, I agree wholeheartedly.

The issue of racism into this? That's right. Yeah, for sure. As Muslims, we need to understand that the argument of racism is essentially the satanic argument that it bleeds game for not bound to Adam, and the federal minimum. I'm better than him. Why? Because of some trait, that you have nothing to do with bringing into existence.

You created me from fine, You created him from clay. Right? What do you have to do with what Allah created you from? Absolutely nothing. Nothing. You take this as a basis for asserting your superiority over someone else.

Panic that is satanic. And that that's part of the actually that that we have to get here. And once we have that here, all right, then, then we will begin to see many of these issues face among us as a community talking about it alone. Well, I mean, that will make its contribution. I'm not sure it'll take us into the endzone. And by the way, I want to make one thing clear here what I'm sorry. But I mean, because you have to be clear about these things, because people take them in all kinds of directions that have nothing to do with me.

I'm not saying

that there's no such thing as hierarchy and no such thing as hierarchy in society.

Every community

and I don't mean religious community, in a community, you can be a community of engineers, you can be a community of basketball players. All right, you're gonna have to establish standards for what good engineering is, and what good basketball is. And those people who, who who mastered those, those standards more, all right, will be more highly esteemed in the community. Sure. All right. But those criteria are negotiated criteria on the basis of agreed upon standards, not something that I arbitrarily determined makes me better than you. Yeah, of course, it was what I'm saying. It makes sense for LeBron to make more money than some of these other players.

Okay, so we're not talking about the absolute Obliteration, you know, of all systems of being able to both measure and encourage excellence in society. All right. But that excellence cannot be based purely on arbitrary sort of character traits, that you have nothing to do with and that have not been sanctioned by Allah as a basis for any kind of hierarchy. You know, some, some of them will, first of all, you know, in this regard, they mentioned that the angels had an objection to bowing to add, but the objection? Let's see how many you've seen and see how we could do that. Do you? Are you going to, you know, create one that will make mischief and will shed blood? So it wasn't based on

anything arbitrary or external. Their concern was about the behavior, the character, the comportment of the human creature, was it was IBLEES that introduced this idea that no, no, it's this is it's this sort of externalities, that is giving that are that are the essential distinction between he and I. And so

Racism in many ways many people have mentioned is a che tonic Sana. It's a pseudonym shaytaan. It's a pseudonym shaitan. And it shouldn't be repudiated as such. Now, of course,

in that

vein, we are beginning to have many tense, unnecessarily tedious conversations about race within Muslim communities. And I'm receiving text messages, WhatsApp notifications, people apologizing for things that they've done regrettable things they've done with within black communities, or maybe some of their neutrality in the past. Maybe they've been racially agnostic.

I mean,

it's interesting, I would like to know what you think. I mean, I've, I've been confused, to say the least, about how to countenance this sea change in Muslim communities I've been witnessing. With regard to race. I don't want to denounce the efforts of my brothers and sisters as insincere. Because I actually don't feel that as you don't feel now I'm not gonna lie to you, man. A few times, I've seen pictures that people post pictures of people at rallies, holding signs, you know, protesting, picketing, and I literally had to take a seat, because it was so disorienting. I was thinking, Wait a minute, I know this guy. I know. Like, I never knew that. He was as interested, as

he appears to be now, you know, in these issues.

However, I don't want to do anything that would undermine the fraternity and sorority that exists between me and my brothers and my sisters. But some of it is hard to swallow, the change is so drastic, that has been difficult to absorb. Do you think,

pointed question, this moment, is positioning us to have an open, no holds barred conversation about race? Or is this something that the dominant culture has made? Okay. And it's now expedient it now has a kind of popular cultural currency to talk about racing this way. And so we are predictably and unsurprisingly engaging. I mean, what do you what do you feel man?

You know, you pose a number of questions sort of woven into all of that, and I'm trying to parse out what the what the what the central question is, and correct me if I'm mistaken, I mean, just to cut to the chase, and you're asking me, if I think that these outpourings of empathy and solidarity coming from, particularly quote unquote, immigrant Muslims is sincere. Is that Is that your question?

Well, not sincere, I think I think you will probably be regarded as sincere. Do you think it will last and that I'll be now ready? Isn't that isn't that isn't that? Isn't that partly a function of sincerity? Yeah, I agree. So you know, this fella,

you could take the question just like that. Okay. Look, look, what I think is this, and this is a this is a somewhat

a mildly complex issue. But I think that it's really important that we, you know, try to understand where we are. I think that this is a moment that whether and I'm talking about those of us in the black American community, whether we think that our brothers and sisters are sincere or not, we have to allow this moment maximum opportunity to lead what it can maximally lead to have right now,

even if we don't think that it's entirely sincere, okay. And this is again,

where we have to view this intersectionality intersection now.

Lonely or something like that.

But I say that as a Muslim, what do I mean by that?

In the Quran,

we have Allah telling the Prophet

when General her the Selmy, fudging the Halawa, what to work on Allah, Allah.

And now who has similar ideas?

And he's talking about the enemies of the Prophet. If they inclined towards peace, then you

Client there too as well and place your trust in Allah and then Allah says immediately what

what in Yuri do and you're

asked about Allah

Oh ALLAH the agenda be Nasri what will make me mean? Well I'll never been a Colombian law and doctor that Merkel other German men and after login Allah Allah they know home

this has been said about enemies. All right. So even if we are not entirely convinced, and I think that that are those in the immigrant community who have to be engaging of the fact that black American Muslims have plenty of a history that will that will reinforce their misgivings about whether or not this is sincere. All right. But having said that, we have to give this a chance to take us as far as it can take us as a community agree we'll see how sincere it was or not agree. No.

You're not out of the woods yet. Because here's where I think

that it gets even dicey.

Because

many black American Muslims, when they say that I'm not sure about how sincere This is.

They're not necessarily saying that I don't believe that.

These Muslims are sincere. Right. But what they know is this, and here's where I think that we have to recognize, you know, who we are as a Muslim community in America.

Black American Muslims

are perhaps

the only

and we'll use that word, indigenous American community

that has to negotiate a major part of its identity with an immigrant group.

That's right. Yeah. What is Islam has to be negotiated with our brothers and sisters who emigrated from quote, unquote, the Muslim world. And that you're that, of course, I'm using immigrant in the broad sense. Very broad.

Sure, right. But but but that has ought to be has to be negotiated. All right. All right. And so beyond the political realm, all right. And I think it bears saying that the, the, the political oppression, right? The Jim Crow, you know, the red line, the police brutality, all these things, immigrant Muslims have nothing to do with the political order, or the you know, the structural shape, that this thing took bait in establish Wall Street. Alright, which, which, which, in its in its in its capitalist, you know, quest, to, to control, the cost of labor has to keep certain people down and controlled. All right.

So that in the political realm, all right, you know, and that's where this whole thing with with with with George Floyd is right now. It's in the political realm. All right, here's the problem will be, even once all of that is resolved, assuming that's all resolved. Black American Muslims are saying that, yeah, but then tomorrow, the next day, our children have to go back to these Muslim schools, where they are put down for being black, out, we have to go in other places where we experience what feels like second class citizenship. This is not political, but this is part of the social reality that we share as Muslims, and that we have as Muslims, right. So even when all the

sort of the mega political issues in the broader society are addressed, some of these social issues, these micro social issues within Muslim communities are not addressed. All right. And therefore what happens is that, you know, even when those issues are successfully addressed, many black American Muslims don't feel that their lives have been really improved because of social issues that they're dealing with within Muslim communities have still not been addressed. No, absolutely not. And that's why you know, for me, you know, the issue has really been Are we capable of seeing each other in the fullness of our humanity? That's what you know, when we talk about, you know, what, a lot of black

have American muscles. And I can speak to this personally.

When you talk about the largest systemic issues, like you say those issues that exist in the political realm, yes, I'm affected by those just like every other black Americans affected by those. But when you talk about experiencing racism up close and personal, and an interpersonal manner, I've experienced much more of that at the hands of Muslims than I have at the hands of white Americans. And that might have a lot to do with my job where I work where I pray, the people that I'm in community with, but that's, that's a, that's a significant reality that I don't want to get lost in kind of these, these macro conversations about police brutality, bank, redlining, the MAL

distribution.

But I think that if we stay clear that as a Muslim community in America, we must address the broader political reality. All right, of course, no, of course, as a Muslim community, that's not saying everybody in the Muslim community has to do that, all right, well, not everybody has to do that in terms of, you know, you know, protesting, you know, activism, etcetera, etcetera, the many level on which that has to be that has to be addressed, but it has to be addressed. All right, also have to understand that that cannot take the place of addressing the social issues within the Muslim community.

Right. So, we have to recognize that as Muslims, we have two theaters, on which we have to operate in terms of trying to improve our collective existence, and just focusing on the broader political issues in American society at large is not going to do that.

No, I agree. So, in terms of doing that, right, that project, there's a lot of thoughts that are kind of swirling in the ether, about where we should start, what we should do, do you have an opinion about that? I mean, this is this is a relationship that needs to be repaired. And in my observation, we get locked into one of two tendencies, either this cathartic tendency, where people start venting their frustrations and talking about indignities and past slights, and they're very angry. And that produces a second tendency, which is this tendency of fragility, people say, I never did that. Are you saying I'm a bad person? I can say, I'm not a racist. I love Muhammad Ali. And,

you know, this is this, and this, and this, and this? How do we get past that? And have just, you know, do you have any suggestion about where the Muslim community can start having this internal dialogue that we know we need to? You know, I think that with that, that, that, and this is one, one aspect of Islam that we may have not

given the importance and priority that it deserves. And that is that there has always been a mimetic element in Islam. And that's, let me let me let me try, let me try and break that down. No words. Islam, on some level has always been transmitted, not simply by books, and teachers who convey conceptual knowledge, but by individuals and groups who model certain kinds of behaviors.

Right?

That modeling, that kind of behavior acquires a multiplier effect. All right. I mean, I'm sure you you've experienced many of us have us, you know, we go and we sit with with with with mache, and they model a certain something. All right, that almost by osmosis, all right, seeped into the being. All right. So part of it is that, especially those who see themselves

as being in a position, sort of to lead in some way or another, these efforts, we have to be models. All right, at least the commitment to allowing this to happen to the extent that it can happen. And exactly is that we have to relax all those preconditions.

Mm.

Right. We have to relax all those preconditions.

I would say, and by the way, I mean, you know,

this is going to be hard.

Because they're going to be disappointments.

Right. I'm going to be on both sides. All right. There are going to be black American Muslims who say you know, I trusted them and now I feel betrayed.

Are there gonna be immigrant Muslims who say, look, I extended my hand, and they did it.

All right,

you know, there's gonna be that.

By that, I mean, you know, we have to persevere, that's part of the whole meaning of suck. And, and it's not a matter of, you know, I don't like that. But that's who we are as Muslims, that's the kind of commitment that we have to have. All right, we have to be willing to commit to try to push our community forward to what it should be. And that means that we have to be willing to bear the sacrifice that goes along with that. Now, having said that, one of the things I want to be real careful about is that I think it's a mistake.

You know, to talk about this stuff, um, you know, sort of one size fits all prison.

Because

the East Coast, for example, say Philadelphia, where I come from, all right, um, the black American immigrant relationship is not quite the same as it is in the Midwest.

And that's not quite the same as it is where I am now on the West Coast.

Right. So I think everybody has to take their reality, that concrete reality, concrete reality, you know, as it's actually been,

actually been lived, I mean, take their community where they are, as it is, all right.

And try to figure out the best ways of moving forward. I think this is a very, I don't know why. But I don't know why we don't see this issue. And there is the resolution of this issue, as being one that will make us such a strong community about how us to put the best thing possible on the field here in America. That is an Islamic issue. Why we can't recognize that I'm not sure.

You, I think that that will go a long way in incentivizing us. Alright, to try to do something about this. Mr. Mill, I'm going to push you a little bit. With one of the questions from none. I'm gonna push a little bit, but one of the questions from the chat, we're actually two of the questions from the chat.

People are asking them and I also have

some ideas about both of these issues.

One is, how do we express solidarity with black American communities, when we see them engaged in clear wrongs, like looting, destruction of property, etc. And the other is from the other direction?

What do you say about the analogy between the looting and

the key talent fee, they asked you about the Nashville Nashville, shuffle haram. Ditalion fee, the verse just alone that

they asked you about fighting in the sacred month, and almost depend on what to Allah says keytab alone fee he could be fighting in a sacred month is an enormity. It's a sin. But then Allah says, right, but kufr

disbelief and dry expelling could from so don't answer will cook from be blocking the path of God, and this believing in God and then the mystical haram astrology, he meant expelling people from the haram. This is worse. And then he says, well, it fits into Qatar, that the Pfitzner is worse then the killing? What do you say to people who say, Well, this is a perfect analogy that yes, the looting is bad destruction of property is bad. But the systemic, pre mature exposure to death, that black people experienced in this country is much worse. So you're in no position to talk about looting or damage of property, don't rush to judgment, rush to justice.

Both of those positions, what do you think? Well, one saying but God, no one saying, you know, how do we express solidarity with black communities if we see them engaged and clear wrong? And the other saying

are we in a position to call this clear wrong?

Because Can you tell him see he could hear right fighting in it is any normative fighting in it is a major sin. But this is worse. The fitna that you have visited upon our people is one of some but what that what that went on and about what that verse is actually saying though, is that, you know, again, we have agreed upon so

Moral parameters. All right, you can't violate them in your way and say I can't mind. Look, here's the reality about this whole about about about this whole looting thing

to me and by the way, I mean, this is not something that necessarily you'll find a unanimously agreed upon view on but in my view looting is haram this is not this is not coincidental to the addressing of the the the wrong that is being being perpetrated. All right, this, this is not I mean, so I take a television. And that means what that white supremacy has has somehow receded.

I mean, so I engaged in what may devolve upon me with some individual benefit, all right, and that's supposed to somehow address the issue of, of white supremacy. Look, I get the whole idea of this being an expression of anger. And one of the reasons why that anger rises and rises and rises, and we see this in the Muslim community is that there's so much denial on the other side. And as that denial continues, people on the ground, all right, want to up and up and ratchet up the pressure to make you feel enough pain, so that you will be shaken out of your denial. All right, I understand that. I appreciate that. All right. But we are people, if we are going to Command what is good, and

to forbid what is evil, we have to command it through means that are good. And we have to forbid it through means that are good. That's right. This is who we are as a Muslim community. And I think that this presents us with another challenge. And that is that all too often, in America, we tend to associate power with violence.

Power is sometimes violence. But the question becomes, are there any non violent methods or means of power, sources of power?

And how do we then as a Muslim community, access those sources of power? Let me give you an example when I'm talking about many of us may remember this a few years ago.

There was a sitting United States Senator, and I think we're Minneapolis, Minnesota.

And he took some unseemly pictures of someone. And they make a long story short, they were able to channel resources to the end of getting him exempted from office. That power. It wasn't violence, but it was power. All right.

How do we begin to think about marshalling the resources that we have as a community, the connections that we have as a community, the insider status is that we have as a community, and parlaying that into a form of power. All right, that will enable us to pursue our political, our political

ends, all right, not necessarily to the modality of power, and by the way, to the modality of violence. And by the way, I'm not one

who

will who I mean, if we denied it categorically, we know we'd have to negate jihad. I'm not at that school. All right. What are these contexts? All right, I don't see looting as being incidental to the realization of a goal at stake.

way, I'm gonna be moderate for now in America. But I'm going to push a little bit here. I think you're absolutely right. And if someone is pressed to state a position, visa vie looting, then they can say, you know, my religion does not condone such expressions of protests, right? However, the fact that we're talking about let me let me let me let me get this straight. So anytime I want a new pair of Gucci's, I can start a riot and just say,

no, no, that's not what I'm talking about. Okay, but I'm saying what I'm saying is that, why if someone challenges and they say, why are we talking about

social justice visa vie looting meaning like this, the conversation should be about me

This, what? That's what, that's what the conversation is about. I mean, you brought what someone said

about looting, none other than No, I'm not talking about looting I'm telling

you to do. Okay. The issue is the issue is how we get to the core. All right, of this racial divide in America. And quite frankly, that's the issue. And quite frankly, um,

I think that one of the shifts that has to be made is from always seeing this as a black problem. All right, to getting more and more whites to see it as a fight problem.

Right?

How what, what would possess you

to keep your knee on a man's neck? To to, to literally just watch the life ooze out of him? All right, what possessed you to do that? And why don't you see that as a problem?

Why are not these oppressive systematic abuses seen as a problem? Yeah. Yeah. That's part of what the ship that's part of the ship that has to be made. Right? Because, again, and again, and again, this comes out to be a black problem, a black problem, a black problem. It's not a black problem. But what about the people are perpetuating this? They don't have any problems.

Subhanallah when conversation come around to that?

And I don't think that has been coincidental to that. Yeah. And I don't either. But I think this is where I think we as Muslims, we have a richer, religious, and spiritual vocabulary through which we can address that issue, meaning, what is amiss? What has been corrupted in your soul? That you can place your knee on a man's neck? Watch him asphyxiated. And do it with your hand casually tucked in your pocket? What like, don't you I mean, this is what we this is what we talk about. We talk about what the Cobham and the Sangha, the one who debases his soul is ultimately a loser, that your soul has been debased. And I think even now, as we pursue conversations about, you know, systemic

inequality, normalized oppression, etc, we have to be very careful not to appear people saying, Look, let us in let us have a place within your rendezvous and victory. Now we need to be saying,

there is something

a miss, there is something corrupt, that you've neglected within your own soul.

And for Rebecca for Tasha, you know, Musa is commanded to Satan for our own, I will guide you to your Lord, and you shall fear him. And then he tells you the home and repudiate your oppression of the children of Israel, but redeem yourself. It's not just a bank. I mean, look at me. I mean, I mean, I mean, hidden underneath every everything you just said, right there is the presumption that Muslims have enough confidence in their Deen in their religion, to articulate these kinds of things in a public forum,

to make that a part of what Islam calls to.

And that is not to be naive to say that, well, you know, we don't get into politics and all this stuff, we just deal with souls now, both have to be dealt with.

But ultimately, whatever political system you end up with, is going to be occupied by human beings. And if the souls of those human beings are corrupt, there's gonna be that corrupted played out in the system. No doubt about it, no doubt about so I want to move to the chat. There are some questions that you may not see me as I go off screen, but I'm gonna read some questions of some of the participants on the call. And just, you know, let you take their questions. Insha Allah, Allah, as someone said, Could it be that the social realities of the Muslim community are a reflection of an ignorance of religion? We have an assumption because someone is Muslim, certain religious

frameworks should be understood by them. But in reality, Islam needs to be learned and people need to be and this has to be recognized by us all. Islam has not learned through us

Moses, what do you think about that? But I agree, I agree.

I don't know 75 80% With a with that, and and the part where I don't agree is that tarbiyah is osmosis. In a sense, you don't have to do without, without models.

And so, and this is where I think we have to be a bit more courageous and recognizing the fact that much of what is being played out in our communities is the playing out of models. Yeah, that's it, no doubt about. So. I mean, we have an island program, and we're very much a part of the move to try to spread more religious literacy. All right. And that is a very critical ingredient in the health of the community. All right, but you can't, I mean, you know, you learn everything that you're supposed to learn here, and you see no one around you, especially elders, acting it out. All right, that conceptual knowledge is not likely to go very far at all.

No, I agree. I agree wholeheartedly, well, osmosis. And this is why the atmosphere that mess did set up, you know, for, you know, for black for women, you know, for for people who are not of their race or ethnicity or whatever. All right. That's why that stuff is so important. That osmosis seeps into the soul. That's a reality. Look, this is how sensitive our Prophet alayhi salam was reality of who we are, as human beings. Listen to what he said. Now, this is a man who came with an entire port, and this is a man who fought battles. This is a man who watched friends and balances die. All right. And part of the message that he went through all of that to convey included this.

If there are three of you,

no, two of you whisper SubhanAllah.

Hello.

There are three of you know, two of you whisper

All right. I mean, it is giving us He's giving us you know, clear instruction about about aspects of the human condition which ignore will produce their own toxins.

And this is part of what we have now and what we need people to model us away from those taxes.

Right? It's gonna be more difficult now. I mean, we don't you know, we're all in home, we don't get to see it.

Yeah, that's, that's true.

We don't have models. I mean, look, remember this, you know, if you go back to the old books, will you know, when they talk about, you know, you know, the prophet as example, that they speak up to acid bidden, having that taken the prophet as an OSA now as a teacher, per se here, but as an example, as a model to emulate? Absolutely. All right, absolutely. So that Osmosis is critical. The problem is that the models in many instances are wrong.

The models are perhaps arrogant, the models are perhaps ignorant, the models or perhaps bigoted, the models are perhaps insecure. Right? And all of that then is absorbed by what is being modeled.

No doubt about it. Another question here, because I know just putting a, just as an addendum to that, you know, in the past, you've talked about we don't say the Thai meme of Muhammad, we say the Sunnah. That's right, making sure that that that aspect of inspiration, and how we relate to the prophet at least that was him and my mace is, is recognized and preserved. And one of the things that we have to understand is that the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam is collectively preserved.

Right,

this collectively preserved, right through that process of my basis. And that's what we have to understand as a community. And I think that, you know,

nowadays, we are all educated, you want to be very, very, very autonomous individuals. And one of the things we have to you know, sort of ask ourselves as you know, how, how well does that position us to function as constituents as critical parts, as you know, you

You know, gears and nuts and bolts of a Muslim community?

That's right. Yeah.

That's right. Another question we have here is, how do we as black Muslims regain or preserve a sense of courageous hope for a better world, that kind of hope and trust in the promise and power of Allah that arrives hand in hand with the message of our beloved prophet, at least that was set up in the face of so much relentless violence? How do we protect our hearts against despair, when freedom fighters and liberation leaders implore us to reimagine our collective future is how we engage in that process as Muslims?

Well, look, I mean, again, I don't I don't have the Ipsy Dixit answer that, you know, that I see as solving this for everybody. Let me tell you one of the things that

buoys me and that is,

and that is, and that is Koran.

And it's very interesting. When you read the Quran, you know, and it's very interesting, you know, this Ramadan, you know, you know, it, you know, you know, you're praying, tada, we're at home now, right? So you can't, and, you know, you got to leave. So, you know, you're not like praying behind the Imam, and sort of drifting off, maybe in coming back, you need if I what I'm saying. So you're right there. So you know, this Ramadan was really a month of poor end. Okay. And one of the things that, you know, you can't have that where there's all these examples of the prophets, none of them had hunky dory times.

Right, they didn't have hunky dory times. And they were abused by their people. Right. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking about show aid. Oh, what did they say to this guy? Yeah, sure. Man, the folk Athena methacholine.

AKA fina diver. Well, a

lot of them neck. Well, man. He's

sure I understand all the stuff you're talking about. Right?

Nobody, no way. In fact, if a one for the group you belong to, all right, what was stolen you man? You owe me not nice.

All right. And then Allah talks about how he buoys these people and comes to the aid. And one of the things that we have to remember is that the aid of Allah does not always come out here. Oftentimes, it comes in gear.

All right, in other words, it gives me the ability, all right, it gives me the resilience, okay? To be able to take anything a human existence has to throw at me, including those things that I cannot change.

That's right, right. Without that, just pummeling me into submission to the point that I give up. And I think that here we might want to remember, we rocked my world. Remember that that's another satanic tree.

All right, because Adam disobeyed Allah to

Allah said, Don't eat this Allah Adam did what he did at Allah Azza to IBLEES do this emission was know about what's stuck. What's the difference between Adam and a bliss? Tober. Adam gave me Toba basically saying, Okay, I'm going to try okay to rise to the level that I'm supposed to rise to eat bliss gave up.

And that's what they say. Some of them are interested in say, the route of bliss is a blessing to give up. Yes, yes. We cannot give up. We don't have the right to give up. That's not who we are as Muslims.

That's not who we are as Muslims. And if anybody would have had the right to give up they don't but it would have been the prophets especially. So Allah when he was sent down. So what boys me is is the Quran and knowing something about the Sierra of our prophets of Allah was Allah you know to know that you know?

This this deen is supposed to give us the ability to deal with life as it is not as we would like it to be. And we always have to understand and this is this is where our mentalities can go second, without realizing Alright, as long as we are Muslims, we understand we all

ultimately not in charge.

We do not guarantee the outcome of our efforts

but precisely because we now okay, then Aloka bring that to Aloka bring that to success, just like that.

You know? It just came to me. I'll just share this with you.

I remember

hearing on NPR many years ago, there was a I was still in Philadelphia then there was a an interview with Dr. J. Julius Erving right. Who was the game above the rim before that guy came out Chicago. Yeah, you know, that just that guy came out that girl came out Chicago, and the interviewer asked him, she said,

um, Julius, when did you know that you could be great.

Alright, and this is 30. Some years ago, I still remember. I was five years old at the time.

He said, When I was a little boy, I had a brother

who died.

And he said, at that moment, I realized that just like the worst things in the world over which I have no control can happen to me.

Things in the world, of which I have no control can happen to me. So Pamela, wow, that's

a lot.

That's a real tarbiyah from Dr. Jane.

As

all of us want to give up some time, go given up. We don't have that right.

Myself, we have another this is just more of a comment. But I think it's worth indexing into the conversation. This is a quote that our sister SRR gave from Toni Morrison, she said, the function the very serious function of racism is distraction. It keeps you from doing your work, it keeps you explaining over and over again, conceal your reason for being someone says you have no language, and you spend 20 years proving that you do it. Someone says your head isn't shaped properly. So you have scientists working on the fact that it is someone says you have no art. So you dredge that up. Someone says you have no kingdoms. So you dress that up. None of this is necessary. There will

always be one more thing.

But this is this is this is precisely where we are as a Muslim community doubling, because that's what Islamophobia does to us. Yep, double. Oh, no, we, you know, we have 1001, that's donations about how we are not trying to resist any other than the other. All right.

And that 10 people outside my door that I go out right now and ask them about Islam? Well, no, whatever he does.

The same thing in the black community, just as Toni Morrison said, and what happens in that regard. When we explain that we do have art, we explain that we're not terrorists, that we explain that we believe in pluralism and all this kind of stuff. What happens? Ultimately, they remain the point of reference. Yep. You're buying into white supremacy.

In fact, in its most powerful form, and that is in its invisible form. That's why I've always said, K K K. Child's Play, and known as before, the media tried to turn white supremacy into kk k. So that we wouldn't really focus on the real white supremacy.

Right? Absolutely. I mean, by that, I mean, when the K K K shows up, right at your doorstep, what are you going to do? If you're, if you're a person with integrity and courage, you're going to fight against them?

Right? White supremacy gets you to fight against yourself. Oh, that's possible.

That's powerful. All right. And that's why many of us, we have to stop and think about what it is that motivates us. All right, to articulate what we articulate.

Because we can be consumed to the point that they again remain the point of reference.

No doubt about no matter what we say, All right, we're still doing their bit.

Do we have to we have to remove Nim as the center of our consciousness and replace it that comes in with Allah subhanahu wa. That's where it comes in. And by the way, I want to be clear about it that I'm not talking about. You know,

I'm not talking about my Judaism. I'm not talking about traditionalism. I'm talking about the fundamentals.

Allah, His messenger the last day. All right, and let me wave hard, no principles that we know from Corbin. In many ways you I mean, you're saying I, either, because because it contains this dimension of formal study. But you're really talking about Eman did let

faith? That's right. You know,

another question here says, sometimes we hear that the problem of the condition of the black community is not as much a function of systematic racism, but rather of faulty bat culture. How can we respond to that this kind of systemic versus behavioral, you know, the wounds of the black community are self inflicted versus that are real structural inequities, barriers, impediments? I find it troubling that only in the black community, do we end up with this street?

Either or it's like the that's the only place we end up with an either or not when discussing any issue?

I don't get that.

But But I think the question wants to know, what do you think about how can we how can we respond to that? Well, again, see, I think that, in a sense, it's dangerous to respond to that. All right.

Why should I have to respond to that? Okay, in order to have values of my own priorities of my own, within my own community, and want to pursue those, because that I say, That's right. All right. So, so I don't want to police my community, in their interest. I want to police my community, and my interest.

So responding to that, I think, is part of the trap. And as you said, we don't ask this about the white community.

We don't, what, what produces people who can keep their knee on a man's neck in broad daylight for eight minutes and 46 seconds? Why produces that? We don't ask that question.

What would produce a whole community who could go, I don't want to be political here. But it's a reality, who could go to church on Sunday, and come home and teach their children to be decent people, and then go right outside and look at whites only colored only signs all over the place? What kind of

questions I think, you know, this is a part of the hegemonic discourses that are out there. And I think that as Muslims, and by the way, you know, I'm a little passionate about these things. I'm just a passionate person in general. But you know, to me, it's really, really important that whatever, and anything that I've said has been critical, it's really important that that critique, always be for the purpose of being constructive. I do not want to destroy American society, no other white community.

I want to contribute positively to the collective existence of us, all right, as communities in America.

And

I see a responsibility

on my part, to really dig deep down and come to understand, what does Islam have to contribute to that.

And that means that there's a serious translation effort that has to take place, because we can't just take, you know, our tradition from 1000 years ago, and 8000 miles away and just plop it down on America. That's not gonna work. No, no, no, no. Do we translate that into meaningful discourse here in America?

Now, the question here is, what are some actions that we can begin in our own Muslim communities to be inclusive and united? How can we battle the division by race and nationality? And then another question, I think in a similar way, she said, right now we're kind of in the virtual mosque. You know, it's, it's easy for us to be united in the virtual space.

But when we go back to meeting and physical spaces, we will be divided in the same way that American communities across class across geographical location are divided. You know, I pray I live, you know, seek recreation in areas and other people in other areas. How can we how can we keep coming together in the way that we are together now, even after the stay at home orders are lifted? Well, I mean, again, I mean, I think part of that is asking the question, why, why have we come together now? Probably because most people think that we got a reason to come together. So that's going to keep us together as recognizing a reason to come together. And that reason should be what Muslims?

That's right. We have a mission we, we are the owner of Muhammad.

We we are the only thing standing between

the complete collapse of Islam. It's complete, interruption transgenerational, moving forward. That's right. So hello, whoa, well, will your grandchildren be Muslim?

Um, all of us?

Well, they'd be Muslim.

If that's not fun.

Well, so so so so. So the issue is, do we recognize?

Do we recognize a reason to come together? And can that reason be powerful enough, all in our own way? Because not all of us are going to come together? I mean, not every forum is healthy for me, or you, or the next person. All right, but contributing in your own way, all of us must be engaged. All right. And at some point, that engagement does need to meet some level of some childhood because we need to parlay that into as I said, you know, means of exerting pressure that enable us to move things to where from where they are too close to where we think they should be. All right. I want to say one last thing about, you know, what should we do? I, you know, I get a little bit

suspicious, when people ask me that,

because, you know, you know,

you know,

it's only certain things we ask people.

How do we do that? All right.

I think that

the solutions to what we are faced with most of them are not going to come from some lecture given by some Dr. Jackson or some anybody else, you know, in some Hall on some virtual space, the solutions to what we are to do are going to come in motion in motion. Right. Any military? General will tell you, all right, we all construct military plans. All right. None of them work.

That's right, the moment we get engaged, we have to adjust on the basis of that engagement. And that's what we as the Muslim community won't have to do as well. All right. But if if our Amen is there, in other words, I don't even have to be the best Muslim. No, ah, I want Allah to be pleased with me. And whatever limited capacity I can pursue that pleasure.

All right. And if on the level of

listen to that hadith of the sahabi, who pulled when the Prophet saw him coming anytime you saw him coming into the, into the gathering, he says it comes a person from from the people of Ghana. All right. They make a very long story short, because I know we're running out of time.

For a short

it turned out that he said, I don't stay up.

praying all night. I don't fast all the time. All right. I don't do these things. But I have no space in my heart in which envy or hazard for any Muslim has any place. No zin no animosity, no animosity, no goodwill, no hazard, no nothing toward any muscle.

Right. And on this, this, this,

this takes work.

Alright, right. But this is where our, our literacy and our instincts

will guide us as we get in motion.

All

right. And if we sit here, you know, looking for the solution that's going to convince everybody on this forum. Well, we will be here another 10 years. Just talking about.

Yep. You know, we have to get in motion, which, which raises another issue that I'm just going to mention, and I'm not going to talk about because, you know, requires a long conversation. You know, we talked about being a community, you know, communities include leaders and followers.

That's right. Are you really ready for community?

Everybody can be the leader.

Know,

this is this is the reality. This is reality. So I want to I want to stop there. I want to apologize. There were so many good questions in the chat. I want to apologize to people whose questions were not addressed. Maybe this will be some incentive for Dr. Jackson to come back and do it again, in Shala.

But I want to take this as an opportunity to invite people to our virtual program. This year, we're going to begin actually on June 20. And we're going to go all the way to September 3. We will be offering three classes per week. And we'll have a special panel on the very topic that a lot of the questions resolved, you know revolved around tonight, a race. You will also be able to study core subjects, such as comparative film, Hadith, Tafseer, Islamic intellectual history, diseases of the heart, scientism, the Illuma Deen women of Mecca and more. The confirmed teachers are shake it show them and it imagined

Dr. Mooney amfori Dr. Heidi robotic Dr. Oman to see Dr. Wayman, Anjem Dr. Jackson will stay the same on Saudi Dr. Jonathan brown.

You know, you the registration is up online, you know, I think this year will give us, you know, a special urgency, I don't think that we need to overreact to the present moment, making all of our conversations about that, because part of what we need to do is strengthen our connection with the foundations of our faith. And through those foundations, we can address these issues, and we can have more substantive conversations about these issues in which we're all drawn from a common basis of literacy about Islam. So I think, you know, I want to see,

you know, a very healthy enrollment this year, because I think we'll have a number of really, really good conversations. So that will be holding me come back on so I can see everybody.

Okay, I'd like to just make one little just closing statement, if I could, yes.

Yeah, I just, I just want to say that, you know, these are, these are, at the very least, interesting times.

And I think that, you know, it's important for us to come together and be indulging in how we

speak to and listen to each other. And so I just want to say that, you know, if there's anything that, that I have said that has

been construed to be an attack or an insult, or anyone, I apologize, we have some very difficult conversations to be had. And, you know, I hope that we'll be able to have them, and the spirit of brotherhood and sisterhood, understandings of the ultimate goal is not the triumph of any, any of us as individuals, but the triumph of that which binds us all together, and that as our collective existence as Muslims, and representatives of Islam in this country, which is

why it was my email, I want to say that to the same thing, you know, I was asking questions, you know, actually, you know, my background man is in journalism. So,

it kind of felt good to say.

We can do this anytime you want. I love to see somebody else in the hot seat, you know, but I was intentionally asking questions that I hoped were somewhat provocative, because I wanted to stimulate, you know, interesting exchange, but if even in answering those asking those questions, posing those questions, anyone was offended by anything. I do apologize. You know, there was one question in the chat about are we undermining fraternity by asking if our brother is sincere when he's, I was I was only getting two

The feeling that that I've been hearing from people and that's kind of my job as someone asking questions that wasn't implying anything of my own, and I hope that no one took any offense. So inshallah we'll end the conversation there. So hang on, I'll be on

the phone was salam ala l Mursaleen. With hamdu Lillahi Rabbil Alameen.

I'm gonna head over Lallemand Zachman Okay, so I'm

gonna get