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Firm Feminists Change Mind After Debate
Channel: Mohammed Hijab
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question I always asked that question.
I've come to realize I'm coming from observation, by the way.
I think the reason why there's so many women here,
simply because women are, by the looks of it from an analytical perspective, not as interested in debates as men.
Why do you think that's?
Why are we more interested in makeup than men?
statistics tell us this analytics tells us why women were interested in
romance. Why? Why are men more interested in fighting?
social construction, now boys is something that actually is, especially since some culture.
I think in some cultures, women don't have the women aren't necessarily more interested in makeup, and are. And I don't know about to own cultures where they are both part of debates, but I do think it's partially.
It's partially the fault of the society that they grew up in, where they were taught that
it's just a choice. If you're going with a liberal premise, then the fact that there are no equal opportunities isn't an
equal opportunity, you know, hey, this place is because
there's no door here that says no women.
So if that's the case, this is a natural reflection of who wants to be.
of a stigma or, like, maybe some people are uncomfortable with
about certain things, due to the way that the society has taught them. I think you know what, I'll be honest with you.
You go from the same country.
Can I can I get something? Allow me to speculate. I mean, I'm not really a
swarm, I get this wrong.
I feel like
it's a result of a feministic narrative, which you have learned? Yeah. So feminism is an ideology, which forces one to think about? Lack of equality in every single segment of society. So hey, speakers corner, a place where there's no discussion. There's no disagreement, that
there's equal opportunities. Yeah, there's no disagreement. And in terms of the population here, the demographic area, no one is saying, There's no one can argue that women are not allowed in or that they're not allowed equal opportunities. But even in a place like this, you come in and say, there's not as much treatment, and then it's the fault of this person or that person. I'm just saying that this is where it becomes ridiculous, in my opinion, why? Because the feminist economic
narrative when it gets to this level of insinuating that every every inequality between male and female is a result of social pressure or resolve the institution or result of men, even as males feel somehow maybe they're doing something that you know, allowing women to progress. When that happens, it becomes quite, quite ridiculous.
So here, I say sometimes we have to this is my position.
some fields in human society economy. Yeah. In any given society whereby
men dominate that profession, I was just reading on BBC, that women dominate midwifery.
This guy is on the BBC right now. This guy he came in. He wanted to be a midwife.
midwife is the guy who takes care of pregnant women, and then the delivery of the baby and then afterwards, yeah.
Women don't demand it and sometimes they reject it.
But otherwise the consumer hair which is a woman because only a woman can be pregnant and give birth, they don't want this. For the most part, they don't feel comfortable with this.
Now, the feminist movement has not said anything about
we want we want equality in midwifery. I've not heard that. But that's not really the result of either. I mean, the feminist party really
has the same
issues because they have like a lighter way to act. It's the same thing. You can't act to permit a movement to, to care about levy the child
Less isn't to do with intellectual equality than like as more to do with biology. And if a man was having like a testicular examination, he would probably also want someone who was others. No, thank you very much. That's That's good. I agree with that.
Not our line of academic
intellect and that our intellect base, just
yeah, I don't even mean, I don't think you've made a really, really good point. Yeah, both of you made really good points. And I agree with your points. Yeah, I want to say she was is this
thing about the feminist movement, a lot of feminists would actually argue that there should be absolute equality between men and women. What absolute absolute equality entails is literally every social, political, and economic factor is equalized to the nth degree, so everything is perfect. I say no, we should potentially have a general equality. Yeah, well, not an absolute equality, because when you start speaking about absolute equality, then these examples of males wanting to be examined by another male, male doctor, in particular, cancer, whatever it may be, or woman wanting to be examined by another woman, when it comes to getting a verse or midwifery, whatever those arguments
can't be made, but then you both can see, you can see the value of those arguments. In other words, a feminist premise is false.
It's true that a lot of feminists argue for absolute equality. But I think
that i think that's also like that used to be more in the olden like, in the 70s. That's what they wanted. But now to something I read recently, a very small book, it's a fabulous book, Clyde negozi.
She made a TED TED Talk speech, right. And it's called 14 points of Communist Manifesto, something like
Number one point that she made, was that you matter equally, no matter what, that's what she said, no matter what, no ifs, no buts. So in other words, the way I've interpreted her first point, and so called Terminus Manifesto, is to suggest that there should be an absolute equality. Now, if we enter, and this is not the 17th movement, or the second wave feminism, this is, you know, 21st century feminism, I'm saying that if we want to make those arguments that we've made today, we should, we should actually say we need to revise the feminist premise. Because every time now we ask questions, we have to pull on our feminist glasses. And ask the question before we do so what I'm
saying is that the glosses don't have a limit and just know how to have a skew.
In other words, they skew your thinking to a certain direction, they magnify certain things, which should not be magnified, and they reduce certain things which should not be reduced. So this is my point, my Poncho, I think that you're unauthorized, not saying that the feminist view is the mainstream one. Because actually, the 10 minutes movement is not really in the institutions. I mean, somehow they have the parliamentary, yeah, but the men and the most, the high classmen that needs to know, yeah, that have allowed them to be like,
they don't really have this. I mean, you can't really talk about equality, and and see what is biology, biology and biology
linked to the women and what is not and what is
taught to you, I I agree with you. In fact, there was a poll done in America
demographical perspective, where 85% of women, this is associated with the feminist movement. So from a demographic perspective, I don't think that people are feminist by logic, but the point of our institution has definitely changed its attention, obviously, from the 60s, the second wave feminism, Kennedy and Johnson, right.
In America, they actually put through law, equality legislation 1963, all the way through until Johnson's reign. It was a range of legislation that was before and continued to be put forward in this country 1998 Equality Act and other acts that are similar to this. So these things are influenced by that.
They're not and I think that there is a reason for it to be in place. Not a bad thing. Actually, that's a bad thing. why I'm saying is that when we thought insisting on equality on every big and small thing, we start to fall into problems. When we thought going into the nuances of society like things like midwifery Yeah.
You need to get over the bigger issues First, the like,
equality of pay and things that are still a huge problem before you think this is a problem. And yes, I think it is okay you need somehow you need to give
consisted up to those things that are happening the child like, Hey, where is the quality problem? Where's that problem in America? In Germany? In Germany? It has also, and how will you come to that conclusion? So, miracle actually forced a lot of companies in Germany to start hiring more women into a CEO positions. And it was not enforced enough. And so even by the end of the year, there were less women in the CEO position was then there by law should have been angry.
Well, why would I tell you is that there's an interesting book. There's two books that this guy has written, which I actually recommend, his name is Warren, Farrell, warfarin, something like this, I sometimes get confused between the ends and ends. He wrote one book called The Myth of male power. And he wrote another book about pain.
But he was really very strong in his analysis, I believe he was talking about the American context, but it's also the western context. What he said is that, basically the wage, the gender wage gap is a myth. I'll show you why he says that. He says that when we compare men and women's pay, we compare like for like, so for example, we literally look at every given sector.
We literally look at every given sector, for things like
we look at what an engineer woman is making compared to what engineer man is making. What engineer a doctor woman is making defense was up to man is being human. And we're looking at the means of those two things. mean wage for the man who wait. Again, for the male, it should be that should be.
Alright, so what he says is that though he says 11 reasons why actually, men don't make more than women. He says, one of them is the fact that men decides to continue in one occupation, whereas women taking maternity leave. In other words, the experience of a man is more than the experience of a woman, where the analysis is fair, is if qualifications and experience are the same. For example, if I have the same qualifications as you, and I get a job, and you don't get a job, I got the same experience as us. And that's a problem. That's when that's one thing. The other point is part time and full time occupations where women choose to go and part time more often than men.
A third thing is men decide to go to other countries and other localities, whereby there's more traveling because for some reason, men generally like to travel more for work, for men like to do or men have shown perspective, to be able to work in more dangerous environments, there's 11 of those, I'm not gonna go through them, but basically, he goes, and a lot of jobs, you don't necessarily enter a dangerous environment. So like, for construction workers, it's completely understandable. But you're a doctor, like you said, it's accepted. So we have to also apply them the other logic. Now, an interesting point to note is as follows. There's a difference. And this is a really powerful
point that he made, I want you to think about, he said, there's a difference between
net gross earnings and net spending capacity. Okay. Now, let me tell you what we mean, in most countries, and most civilizations, and especially now even in the West, even in the West,
after the second feminist, second wave feminist movement,
even after that we find that basically men
have to spend for their family. That's usually as a trend. Yeah, they have children. They're more expected. They're socialized to do that. Now, if that's the case, what what what Pharaoh was able to show him and he's endnotes of his book, The Myth of male power, is that when we compare male and female, male and female spending power, we notice that male spending power from he wrote his first book in 97, I think, and the second one he made in 2008, is the same book but this two additions. I think the first edition, you said that,
basically, a woman made on average had an average spending capacity of $10,000 not money that they make more money that they can spend a year per annum
men made 10,000 women made 14,000. In other words, woman, women have more net spending capacity than men, according to this study that he's put forward. Therefore, we have to be holistic in our economic analysis. I think that really the people that push forward this whole gender pay disparity thing, people who have a disfluency a real hard time understanding economics.
But if you if you like, look at the spending again, on another level of women by must get food for the household because they're expected to be cooks and things like that. Or they have somebody come from, you
know, come down unnecessarily. That's what Pharrell says, and this is the point we say that men have been the most cultured in society.
I've been socialized. And yeah, feeling that they have to pay for the fact that more and more women are also contributing to the household with Yeah, I'm saying that's still happening definitely in the Western world that's happening. Now, when we go east, that's happening less and less. This is where the problem is. A lot of people say that, well look at the other parts of the world, look, Africa, look at Asia, look at China, look at what all these places, we find that even higher despite
being realized this, actually those men that are going to work
almost entirely for the families, because in that respect.
So do you get what I mean?
You know, and most of I just wanna make this point. And most of the feminist analyses that I've come across, I've always seen and this is what Simone
Feminine Mystique, and all of these books that were which are seminal works, we're not talking about like
minor books or radical books, which are about mainstream feminist.
The majority of them which I've read, always make this comparison, which makes me quite angry. Actually, you know, what the comparison is the basic comparison between
women and slaves. And in fact, Simone de Beauvoir actually goes as far as to talk about black slaves, you know, black slaves in America.
Now, why does that make me upset because actually
demeaning and demoralizing.
First and foremost,
think about those black people, they were forced. And then they were when they were raped and things that don't happen to women on a regular basis. I'm sorry, they just don't worry, don't get whipped into ways that black people were whipped, don't get killed, they don't get separated families. Enjoy buffering child.
In that same way, that same way, but
the woman is separated from her child because she's engaged. She's a marriage. By the way, if you look at how one of her interviews online, in French bytes translated into English, yeah.
Interviewed, she says that
she's against marriage, she was never married before. She's actually she believes that she's got a chapter in a book called marriage. She talks about how marriage is an oppressive institution. And she's never been married, and she feels this liberating to never get married. This woman continued to get married. Anyway.
Last thing is
if there was gonna be any kind of analysis between
a slave and someone in the household, that would have to be the man, especially in the eastern world, let me explain myself. Let me explain. So we talked about myself.
If we if we now transport ourselves, when London speakers corner, we go into a transportation machine, we'll go into a plane, and we're going to go to I don't know, Kenya, or one of the African countries, Sub Saharan African countries, Kenya, let's go somewhere deeper Zimbabwe can
go to any of those countries, you will find the small Congo Congo is a good example. Especially in some areas.
Go to Congo, you'll find small men, small boys, actually.
The age of seven years old sign debt, well, the work well, you know,
three or something for those kids.
In the Congo, they have to stop mining. Yeah.
Those, those kids that's off mining at the age of seven, and continue doing so until they're 47. Were in Congo, I think the life expectancy is 50, or something one of the lowest in the world
that man is working on is like, think about it, to feed his family. That person has to go to different villages and fetch different places. Yeah. I don't consider that person depressing his wife.
The feminist narrative is telling me, no, that guy, he is a slave owner, and the woman in this house is a slave. I say if there's any slaves him.
They might have some privileges.
They have. They are the ones who receive the money. And they give it all to their family. Yeah. To the family about white privilege. I mean, what did he receive? Or what what can they expect the women to be with them?
Well, 1314 I mean, sorry, but not on the field.
Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. But what I'm saying is, first of all, yes, you're right. But let me be a devil's advocate for a bit. The woman is working in a household, she's safe for him. He's at a higher risk of death. He has a lower life expectancy. He has a higher risk of getting diseases. He has a higher risk of getting killed by one of the militias and in Congo.
So when they say the news, my friends
the way the wage gap Yeah, the wage gap. We have such a problem.
Burning woman. It's ridiculous to talk about that in the West. But it's even more ridiculous to talk about that in the east and African countries. Why? Because in those countries men have more money by virtue of the fact that they need to to feed their families. And they do that. Whenever you look at economic indicators, and you listen to feminists speak, on the face over if you're one dimensional, you will think why why disparity white Call it what inequality we live in what oppression we have. But when you think about why the question why the all important question, why you come to many different conclusions will show us. In fact, men have not been the oppressors.
And the gangsters under
you know that
they have been part of a system of socialization, which meant that they have now been also expected to act for their families. That's why they
hard for them to kind of say something.
By the way, sometimes what I thought so can I get a bit
more about that? Yeah, I
was gonna say is this.
I know it's difficult. What am I talking about? Let me tell you what
is difficult to break away from Waco, a post enlightenment, we can even call it a post colonial mentality. What do I mean by that? The ideas of the Western world are so ingrained into our psyche, that when we when we talk about morality,
feminism, racism, this, this this, some of it is completely right. We're completely against racism. We don't we believe in a gender inequality between men and women. Right? Yeah. But you have to stop being more critical. Yeah. I think I'll be honest with you, the Western world is arrogant now. Why? Because after the, the Cold War,
and you know more about this.
After the Cold War, after 91, let's say, from 91 onwards, yeah. There's a superpower in the world. There's a hit your hegemony, the American hegemony. Yeah.
That superpower has taken the ideas from the Enlightenment period and is now pumping them to the rest of the world.
First and foremost, I don't see why people should be arrogant about the fact that there's a superpower for the United States of America boy.
It's the shortest slip so far, youngest,
ever lived, empires that look at empires that have lived in the past?
Look at for example, the Mongols because the Ottoman Empire from 1453
a long time until 1920. It's just another Empire 25 years. And now America thinks he's got everything right. And the West thinks he's got everything right. All of his ideas are the ultimate truth. And all of the other ideas are not right. Yeah. What we have to do is we have to be more critical than that just because America is experiencing its turn as the world Empire. It doesn't mean to say that its ideologies, and the identities are popping from it. That much from it. The correct ideologies, we have to think people need to get what I mean.
Guess some ideologists coming from the Oxford and yeah,
studied feminism, you you got to realize that there's no only one way of feminism Yes, liberal feminism, there's a
I know you're
talking about what we're talking about. We were talking about just before, I think that you're right about the things.
The men are the ones who usually go to the tool, the most dangerous,
but somehow some feminist movements they are trying to deal with that. I mean to do and with those relationships. I know that the patriarchy whether it was a call for the contract is not always
good for them. For the men. Maybe that's
not good for them.
But why is it that you're not?
I mean, why is it that you're not comfortable talking about feminism?
They are trying to end up with those relations. I mean, they are in the same.
I mean, I like to join the feminism in that way. But tell you why. Because I don't agree with the narrative.
I think there's a massive conflation of women's rights. I'm 100% for that. women's rights. I'll talk about
women's rights include for you. I want to tell you something right. Feminism does not have the monopoly on women's rights. There is a monopoly
have different systems out there ideologies, all of which
are different systems.
You can't discount the fight for women's rights just because the feminism, it is a it isn't a perfect narrative, and it has a lot of problems, like you said, like discounting men's rights in that whole debate as well. And so yeah, I'm not saying I was wrong, by the way, I'm just saying that the parts I disagree with one, two, and three and I have outlined a key
point that you've made about patriarchy. I wanted to say, how do you define the word patriarchy? Because the thing is this.
If you go to the city has a central
goal, we go to the city. Yeah.
We meet one of the corporate bosses, we say to the corporate boss,
how many people are you managing?
How many people are you managing?
He says, Look at 2008 2007 I was managing four people, or three people now managing eight people. Would you agree that that's an increase in that manager's power?
Would you say that now he's managing more people, therefore his power is increased? Would you say? No, it's policy to say
that I'm saying if you go to a if you go to the if you go to now,
a corporation? Yeah. You go to one of the bosses, they'll
ask him, how many people will you manage? it? says in 2008, I was managing 4007, I was
17, I'm managing eight people. Would you naturally say therefore his influence has increased, his powers increase? And then his company grew? And, and one can argue okay?
If you say if you say no
power, that's just a
Now, if I say this,
a woman has two children 2008 2018. She has six children.
So you're saying no, but you see, why is there a difference?
No, I don't think you could compare those slides. A manager can tell people, his people what to do. And he doesn't have to train them. He doesn't have to little children want to do? Yes. But at the same time, she has to make sure that all of their needs are satisfied.
No, he doesn't have to, he doesn't have to make sure that they stay fed and cook for them in different roles like that different roles and responsibilities are different. The nature of the job is different. However, the idea of responsibility has stayed the same. If we go out to an old person's home
and asked the person who's working the manager, how many old people are you looking after, there's four people, I have responsibility over four people now is increased to eight people.
The same people, same thing. Now you can bring in the same kinds of responsibility, the responsibility relationship is not the same, because
somehow the workers feel that there is their responsibility to to make the this company grow up. And the mother is the one who cares about their children to grow up. That's
the other way around.
I mean, the mother is the one who cares about the children, and she's the one who tries to write them up in a way and the company, or the workers who want are the ones who want to know suggesting there's no differences in the nature of work. But I'm just saying the responsibility, if we're talking about
and increasing responsibility usually means an increase in power.
Yeah, any Christian responsibility usually means an increase in power or an increase in power usually means an increase in responsibility. Yes. I guess it means it depends how you look at both economic situations and increase in power. It means entails an increased responsibility. So if you give me any job in the world, ie any job, the president, President, okay, now, his responsibilities have become more when he became president. Okay.
So, what we're saying is this
Production apply. And the point is this guy. Here economies
take into consideration
the economy and
the power dynamic between the mother and the children
ceded to the parents to the children.
Most of you
would you agree with
us one on one?
I mean, there's definitely many influences. Definitely a politic. Yeah. Okay. These are points I wanted to make you guys now listen, I'm not saying I disagree with your points. In fact, I agree with the general equality premise. But I'm saying is that when we start to think about things carefully,
realize that there's more to this
black and white.
I mean, there are studies that have felt like, it's true that the feminist narrative is like,
it's just not a very good, like, they should look at the individual issues more than like, the overall issues, like just focus on like that. So you'll you'll see
that it's not a feminist cause but it's like, like a cause for rights in general. Yeah. So there was a study where they sent an application to the same job exactly the same. And everything, but the only difference was the name. So one would love to see the name when they did that study with, with the ethnic minority names. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, no, I know. My name is Mohammad. Yeah.
Maybe we should have a movement called the ethnic minority isn't Yeah.
this. Yeah. I must say that people.
If a woman was applying for a midwife, midwife, midwife, she would probably have positive discrimination. You'd probably be preferred.
It was like a doctor's position. But
like, they both got the job. But the suggested salary was love to see that the scope of that sociological experiment, because I haven't looked into it
into one thing that had an article that was related to Muslim women, Muslims and women, because there's two things which are stigmatized, you could say in a sense.
Oh, see this
discussion about both those controversial
they are the least likely to get a job
as a black Muslim.
Anyways, it's been a pleasure talking to you guys. Yeah, yeah, I think anyway, if you need anything