The Great Debate – Part 1

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Isam Rajab

Channel: Isam Rajab

Topics: Comparative Religion

Episode Notes

The Great Debate ‘The amazing dialogue between Ahlus Sunnah and the Mu’tazzilah from early Islamic History’

Part 1 of 2

by Shaykh Isam Rajab

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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In the last slot Samana Rasulullah, Alana Sanatana, Dharma dancer, I want to.

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First of all, I'd like to thank the brothers here,

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the doctor, director and the other brothers here for giving me this opportunity to address you to talk about this unique topic, which

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I don't think it has been

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dealt with before, or tackled and touched upon.

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At least in English, in Arabic er, it has been mentioned a couple of times, but in English, to my knowledge until now, it was not mentioned. And it's really important.

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This is one thing. The other thing I do apologize also for coming late, they say to come late, is better than not coming at all. I don't know if that applies in this case, or no, you are the judge. So the second law here for waiting for staying here.

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And

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the talk will be about the debate, the great debate. It actually marks one of the greatest debates that took place in history. And the debate itself as an art. Ibraheem alehissalaam is the professor and the founder of that art

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from the messengers, when he debated with a number of

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when he debated with his people.

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debate

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in Islam is a venue that you can take with conditions in certain ways.

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We can

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resort to the bait, in certain cases, when other

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conventional ways do not work. So Ibrahim Ali salam, he debated with his people, he debated with a number of

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we have the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam

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also debated with the Christians of Niger Ron

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and then the debate could be elevated to something else. If things did not work out, if the opponent did not agree or tried to avoid answering, then there is the ultimate challenge, which is mubadala.

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And it was mentioned in Surah, lm Ron

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where Allah subhanho wa Taala told the Prophet sallallahu wasallam, to invite his family and let his opponents also invite their families. And then they both invoke Allah subhanho wa Taala. To make the curse of Allah on the liar,

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that would be the ultimate challenge. Again, debate in itself.

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It is available, but the Muslim has to be careful whenever to use it.

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He has to be confident with himself. He has to know what he's talking about. Because Alonzo just says we'll have a sabini added in Allah, Allah basura team and Amanita Ronnie, so this is my way. I invite to the way of Allah, I teach

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upon knowledge, that's the that's the condition. That's the underlined word with knowledge, Allah basura you have to know knowledge is not only the information that you have, but knowledge is the way how to convey the message.

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One of the most important conditions, whenever there is a debate, or even a dialogue or a discussion, is your intention.

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What is your intention? Is it to show off to let the people know that you are the prominent scholar, the one who knows everything? And the one that can challenge anybody and nobody can challenge him? Is that your intention? Imam Shafi Rahim Allah used to say, I never debated with anyone except that I hope that Allah would make the truth appear on the tongue of that person with that person. This shows the pure intention that when he discussed when he debated people, his intention was to find the truth, reaching the truth where it is.

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So today, we have a very beautiful debate. One of the greatest debates,

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and this debate did happen. There is absolutely no doubt about it. between two people, one representative of analysts

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Elena glasses, the vinyasa? Muslim even my noon lk nanny from the tribe of Kiana.

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This Imam is from Mecca

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representing an Asana and then we have

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Bishop mrec. Representing

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I will be done the people of innovation, and in particular Mr. Tesla and Tesla is a given group of Muslims

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were founded by wassell vinata. Allah has done was to live in Africa used to be a student of hustle and bustle Rahim Allah.

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He was, at the beginning, very pious, listening to Al Hassan al Masri Rahim Allah until

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he started separating himself from Al Hassan anniversary, Rahim Allah and in one narration, it was a person who asked him to isolate himself and to stop coming to his circle. And that's from where they are called Alma Tesla.

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Yeah, Tesla is to abandon to leave.

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So that's Mr. Tesla.

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At the beginning there was was sort of an ATA, with his students being obeyed, and then later became Bishop mrec was the star of that division sect. Now mainly, they had a lot of deviant ideas. I'll not go through all their ideologies in either.

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They don't believe in either

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that there is a decree where Allah subhanaw taala

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predestined everything, they say, How come? Allah azza wa jal knew that someone will sin and he punishes him after he knows that he's going to sin. So anyways, they have some misguided ideas. The idea that we're talking about here is the Quran.

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What is the belief of Muslims when it comes to the Quran, the words of Allah subhanho wa Taala. That was a fitna at the time of the Imam Abdul Aziz. Allah

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is not the only one who was tested. Actually, he was out of the focus point at that time because he was in Mecca.

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The focus and the place of that fitna was in Iraq where a man, Rahim Allah was there. And the management Rahim Allah, he was persecuted because of that. And this, again, this reminds us of our responsibility. Maybe if Imam anglicism Yeshua Rahim, Allah did not choose to utter the words of truth. They did not choose to stand up to step up for his beliefs, maybe we would never have heard about him, or this debate would never have taken place. But it did. Why? Because it shows the responsibility.

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We've had allow mythical levena Aki Tavella to be known and nasty, well attack tuna. And remember when Allah took the covenant, from the people of book, to clarify,

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to clarify, to mention the information to convey the message to people

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and not to conceal it. That is the covenant that allows or just took from the people of knowledge. So it is in your hair and Allah. He heard about the news what's happening in Iraq. At the time of moon he was the Khalifa and Mahmoud Masha Allah,

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the halifa of the Muslims from year 198 until year 218 of Hydra.

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20 years

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30 years of rolling and mamoun he was the ruler of Muslims. He opened the door for

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translation for interpretation of other books, philosophers, thinkers, great thinkers, and that brought new ideas that was the source of the fitna. When people started speaking about the Quran, Al mamoun the Khalifa he adopted the opinion of the martela at his time that the Quran is created.

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And so now they say Allah Quran is the word of Allah subhanaw taala. And the word of Allah is not created, the speech of Allah subhanaw taala is not created. That's not the belief of Alma Tesla, and multizilla they say it is created

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or an is created. Now for people.

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They were confused. What What should they choose? Which way should they go? The way of our listener

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or the way of my Tesla. Now you would say it's obvious

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It should be the evolution at their time. It was not that obvious every time there is a new trend, something coming new. People like to follow it. And that's what was happening at that time. Because it sounds suspicious. Now if you are equipped

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and shielded with the book of Allah subhanaw taala with the knowledge from the book of Allah and the Sunnah of the prophet SAW Selim inshallah you are protected. But if you have some desires that you want to follow, if you have some ideas that you just like, then you will be under the exposure of this fitna. And that's what happened. When we talk, we are humans and we are created. So our speech is created. So why the Quran is different. That was the idea for the Martha's Zilla. These papers, we are writing with ink papers are created and the ink is created. So why this is different from the Quran. That's the Quran we have it, it's papers and ink. That's it. So it is created.

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Now, that might be true. But what is in there is the words of Allah subhanaw taala. And that's not created, who are Colombian law. Anyways, that was the beginning, alpha moon, and this is what happens when there is an official opinion when the state, the country adopts an opinion, and stops anybody else from believing and anybody else would be out law. If he decides to

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deviate from that opinion. That's what happened. Al Mahmoud, he decided

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and he thought the people that this is the correct opinion. He was thinking that this is

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the correct opinion. He is coming close to Allah subhanaw taala by believing in that, that the Quran is created. So he thought the people also nobody is allowed to say anything else.

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It's absolutely prohibited and that started the fitna. Most scholars including prominent scholars, like you're having named Rahim Allah, very famous scholar of Hadith, he gave him why he was excused you have in mind is a man in Georgia and

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in Hades terminology.

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Just like now, when you have credit score, and there is a reference for the credit bureau where they say you have good credit or you have bad credit, you cannot challenge that they are the reference. There were some scholars,

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they are references, good management and handle whenever he says about someone, he is kozub he is a liar. People will abandon him, nobody will take the Hadith from him. Same thing was you have in mind, you have in mind they brought in they told him what do you say about the Quran

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and he was looking, the gods were waiting, any different words he will be punished, he will be tortured. So he told them what they wanted to hear it is created.

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From that moment on mama drama Allah did not speak their mind. They were

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colleagues

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of mine told him I was cursed.

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I didn't choose to do that. Just like I might have been yesterday of the law on Homer. He spoke the word of Kufa.

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And the prophet SAW Selim told him if they repeated their torture, you repeat saying the word of God for as long as your heart is settled, is assured with the man. It doesn't harm you. So in our national drama lotto, they have in mind, Amar, he tasted the punishment, he was tortured, you did not SubhanAllah. So if I'm not going to handle it chose the difficult way. Now, again, now we are only reviewing and going back in retrospect to what happened. We did not live those moments. They are very difficult. Everybody would say, Oh, it's easy. I could also step up for my beliefs. Is it really the case? Are you able to do that when you are threatened, that you will lose your job, you

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will not have any source of income, you will be physically tortured punished. Would you be able still to say the word of truth? That is the question. So back to our Imam Abdul Aziz bin Yahya al Kimani Rahim Allah, He says, the news came to me from Iraq, what the halifa did, and I was very worried. I could not sleep the night. Why not because his son is sick, not because he lost his job. He said I wanted to make the correct truth of the Word of Allah subhanho wa Taala appears to everybody. I wanted to support the word of Allah subhanaw taala I did not know how I was worried. Then I decided to do something.

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And that's Subhan Allah how the people when they want to do something, they get creative, when they are determined to do something. Allah subhanaw taala gives them the way Look at the beautiful way

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What

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did he said, I told my son, I went with my son from Mecca to Iraq.

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I chose the largest gathering. Again, nowadays, when people claim that you are free to believe whatever you want, you are free to say whatever you want, even in free countries, even in America, even in UK, look what happened to WikiLeaks founder, why? You have certain limits in everything, there are limits. Once you go beyond these limits that they put, they will cut you off.

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They will stop you. So what do you have to do you have to try to reach the maximum number of people. What was the purpose of eyeglasses when your hair Amala? Only to make the truth apparent to everybody? That's all. That was his intention not to become famous. Not so he could take money from people. No, at his time, there were no media channels, there was no TV, no internet. So what do you do if you were in his shoes? This is the man he wants to be able to reach as much as possible of people to correct their beliefs to tell them that the correct belief in the Quran is what the prophet SAW Selim believed in is what the companions of the salon believed in. So he told his son,

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we will go to the biggest Masjid. And after the Jamaat, that's the largest gathering of Muslims every Juma after Friday, you on one side and I will be on another side. I will ask you loudly. What is the belief in the Quran? And you will answer it is the word of Allah not created. That's his plant. That's what he wanted to do.

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Again, he knew

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what the halifa decided. Once you do that, you are an outlaw, you are violating the law. Because it was a law that anybody who declares

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that he's against that opinion, he needs to be punished. So Abdulaziz, Allah willingly doing that paying money to do that for one purpose only

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to convey the message to deliver the Amana the trust that Alonzo jail entrusted him with. He's exposing himself to danger only because of that. That was his intention.

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So he came to nest it Rusafa

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in garden, in a region where the Amir, the deputy of the halifa was amor Masada.

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So he was attending the Friday

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and immediately after the Imam finished the prayer,

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Allah jumped and asked his son from the other side, my son, what do you say about the Quran, and his son said, it is the word of Allah not created.

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Allah says, The minute my son finished his sentence, people started running away from domestic. Just like now when you decide to do something against the law, people will run away from you. They don't want to get in trouble. Because they will not only catch him, they will catch everybody around him. Everybody contacted him, who are his sources, who funded him. So people he says people started running afraid that they will be punished, they did not do anything. But still that shows you the severity of the situation there. But also that shows you the greatness of this, remember him Allah, you are exposing yourself to danger for one purpose only. You knew that what they are doing is

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wrong. All what you have is your words. That's it your beliefs. And that's why the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said, he had the greatest level of jihad, to utter the word of truth before a tyrant King. So Allah was performing the greatest level of jihad, speaking the word of truth.

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Pamela says immediately I was captured by the gods of Amara when Masada deputy because he was attending the prayer. And he heard me he heard what I said. So the gods captured me. They brought me to him. So he asked me, are you crazy? Because he did not need anybody to tell him what eyeglasses said he heard him. So he asked him, Are you crazy? Is there something wrong with you? He said, No. He said, Why did you do that? He said, I wanted to utter the word of truth. It's an honor I have to convey. So he told him, then why didn't you do it in secret?

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Instead of violating the order of the Khalifa ameerul momineen. He said because I want to reach him. I want to reach the halifa He is the one who issued the order. He is the one who's making everybody forcing everybody to believe

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The Quran is created. It's not the word of Allah, I want to reach the halifa.

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So I'm going to Masada. He told him, if you read the halifa, is that really what you're going to do? Or you want to reach the halifa? So you would ask something else you would ask for money, or there is something that you want worldly cars. You said, No, that's the only thing that I want. So I'm gonna when Messiah told him, would you do that? Are you able to do that? He said, Yes, I am going to do that. That's what I want.

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I'm gonna miss I told him okay. He told the gods to take him Amrit Masada went to the palace of the Khalifa. And

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Allah says, I waited, I saw him entering, obviously he was outside. He kept there for he was there for a long time. And then he came out, and he said, ameerul momineen, Hafez, Allah agreed, he agreed to

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allow you to speak

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European. And there will be people also speaking their opinion. And if you appear to be wrong, you will be punished. He said, that's all what I want.

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He said, yes, it will be Monday. That was Friday. So it will be the next Monday.

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The great debate. So our Masada told him go back and we want someone to guarantee that you will come who will

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be your

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word or the guarantee that will deliver you to us? He said, I have nobody. I'm stranger. I'm from Mecca. Even if I have someone after what I did, nobody wants to be my friend. So I'm gonna say I told him Okay, I will leave some people with you. They will take care of you Monday, they will bring you to me. Monday came, they brought him farmer of Masada has asked him told him again. Are you determined to do what you are going to do? Because to him, he's looking at the man who's exposing himself to death. That's it. There is no joke. There is no joke, the halifa issued a decision that's a law, that it's about the religion, the belief, his job is to protect the religion. He believes

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that this is the religion of Allah subhanaw taala you are

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going against the halifa and going against the religion of Allah subhanaw taala. So you are facing death easily. So I'm gonna My son is telling me, are you still

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determined to do what you want to do? He said, Yes. He told them if you need something, if it's money that you need, I can help you. If there is someone did injustice to you tell me and I will look into the matter. He said, No, I don't want anything of that. The only thing I want is to reach the halifa. He told him, okay, let's go.

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They went to the halifa. Again, Allah says the same thing happened. On Friday. It's happening again, Monday, I waited outside, down inside, I went inside for a long time. And then I was allowed to come from one

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island to another, it from one room to another room until I reached the court where the halifa is sitting. And I was shocked.

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Because it was the first time I see the Khalifa. It was the first time I see that huge place. I was speechless. And I did not know what to say. And people started pushing me. I was taken by this chalk, and the halifa. Notice that so panela even at that time, even those qualified, who did some injustices, they were still great Muslims. Many times, we find some stories distorted in our Islamic history. And it's our job to verify what we are hearing of the news. Even al Mahmoud Bahama Allah, who supervised the torture of Mr. Mohammed Rahim Allah, who commanded the people to believe that the Quran is created. He had great justice. When he acted, he thought that he's defending the religion

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of Allah subhanaw taala. That's what he did. Many of those colorfabb they memorized the entire Quran. They knew a lot about they were taught by great scholars, they memorize the Hadith. They supervise jihad, many of them, so we have to keep that in context when you're talking about them. Anyways, the halifa notice that

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Ron, Allah is shocked. So he wanted him to be relaxed. So he started asking him, what's your name? He told him eyeglasses and he asked him where are you from? You told him from Mecca. We don't do you know the people of Mecca? He said yes, I almost not everybody except someone who is stranger or someone who is isolating himself from people. So

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Allah says the halifa started asking me about people from Bengal Hashem, the relatives of the Khalifa and the Khalifa is from Bangladesh and from the lineage from the line of Abdullah in advance for the lawn human. So, he said, he asked me about people that all of them I knew. And I told him about that he did not need to ask me, but he wanted me to be assured to be relaxed, so I could start speaking. And then he looked to the roof, and he told me Masada, don't you see the paint? It's falling apart.

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We should change it. So amaura when Masada says yes, may Allah cup the hand of the one who painted it, he did not do a good job

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of Nazism. Yamaha says, The minute I entered one of the people next to the Khalifa, one of the people next to the halifa. Left, the minute I entered, and he thought the halifa or commander of faithful Yamuna no mean it suffices you the face, look at this man from his face, you know that he is nothing.

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You don't even need to hear him. Why scholars talk about the description, the physical description of lessons from a lot. They say that he was not beautiful. He was not that good looking. But that does not matter. To me, I remembered that but he was not in a state that allowed him to talk about it until he was relaxed. When he started speaking, when the halifa notice that this man is able now to talk he gave him the floor. This shows the Justice just because you adopt one opinion that does not give you the right to abuse the others. Just because you believe that this opinion is correct. That does not make it correct. And that's why we have the debate because maybe you are wrong.

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Again, remember what I said anyways, so the halifa started, he told

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Nola

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What do you want? What's the matter? And he told him he told him the Quran is the word of Allah. It's not created.

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Moon says there were lots of people

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around the moon, there were lots of people.

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Most of the ministers many scholars that are on the same opinion of Mahmoud Rahim Allah, so all of them started shouting and speaking aloud, that Al Qur'an is created, just like everything else is created. So

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he told him,

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choose one person that I could talk to, and we could debate in front of you and you will be the judge. If his opinion is correct, I will follow it.

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So al mamoun Rahim Allah He elected Bishop and Medici bishop. Again, he was the head of the muqtada at that time, and many scholars considered him Catholic. They said that the evidence was established against Bishop lrec, but he still kept insisting on his deviant beliefs. Amanda datameer Rahim Allah He has an entire book called Aurora de la Vishal merisi.

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The refutation and the response to Vishal

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nama Dharma, one of the greatest scholars of Hadith. So, now Bishop

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is chosen to debate with Aziz bin Yahya Rahim Allah when the Khalifa mention the name of Michelle Murray's initial jumped. Again, he was always with the halifa and he has a status with the Khalifa unlike idolizes him, yeah, now he has the floor, he came and he jumped.

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He jumped, he put his knees over my thigh, almost I felt like it's broken. So I told him hold on a second, the Khalifa asked you to debate with me not to beat me up not to torture me. So the Khalifa told him stay away from him, leave the man alone.

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And now he told him start the debate.

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Allah told the Khalifa Amira nominee or commander faithful before we start, we have to know on what we are debating, what is the common ground and this is an important rule also whenever you debate someone, you have to agree on certain things. Otherwise, there will be no reference there will be nothing to refer to. You will talk about something and he will talk about something else. That's very important. That's why man Shafi himself, Rahim, Allah says, I debated with a scholar, and I overcame him.

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And I bear it with an idiot and he overcame me with a scholar, I had the upper hand with the idiot, he had the upper hand. Why? Because when you talk to people, they don't understand how can you win the argument. And that's why it's a waste of time. You only debate with people that you know that you have common ground, even if they don't

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Don't want to reach the truth at least you could make the truth appear if you are debating with them, but if people are talking about something else and you're talking about another thing, then you will not come to a common ground. So, I realized that we have to agree on certain things.

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What are we talking about? What is the reference here? You will be the judge. But how do we know that what we are saying is correct.

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Allah told him I will accept only the text only the text not even the interpretation of the text.

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No Suki tabula the text of the book of Allah or the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam,

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you bring an issue, you bring the evidence, the evidence is not what the ayah implies, what the Hadith means, what the Hadith says what the ISS that's what I will agree with. So my mom said, that's fine. And he told Michelle Medici you have to agree on that also, because what I'm saying is fine. Our reference is the book of Allah and the Sunnah of the prophet SAW Selim, and

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the halifa. This is what Allah commanded us.

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Or people of faith or believers, yeah, you have enamel, after Allah wa to rosulip

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obey Allah, obey the messenger, and the people of knowledge or your rulers, depending on the interpretation and naming thing then as item fishing, if you dispute in regards to something for a duel in a law, Horace, our reference is what? The Book of Allah and that's another process and that's what I agree with him on the book of Allah and the Sunnah of the prophet SAW Selim. And he said, a beautiful statement obliges me, I want you all to remember it. We're in NEMA. We're in NEMA.

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You had you with that we have karma with Tenzin, we can resort to the implication of words to the interpretation of words, after we agree on the revelation. How can you argue with someone on the meaning while he doesn't agree on the text itself? That gives us again the mental order always of things how you move from one level to another level Subhanallah this mmm lesson. Allah was really given great knowledge, not only the great knowledge, but the ability to convey that knowledge. Sometimes you have people they have the knowledge but they they cannot give it out. And some people allow so general bliss, their knowledge, although they have less knowledge than others, but they

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were given the ability to convey what they have.

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Others they have more but they are unable to deliver it. They think that everybody understand them, but they are not understanding them. So it differs. This is the blessing of Allah subhanaw taala. Again, who's greater in Ramallah or obliges Nia there is no argument, no dispute, everybody agrees. mahamantra molars greater and even in management Rahim Allah, his debate was only a couple of seconds.

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It happened later, with another head of an autism. Gonna be to add, we have Ahmed asuna and Desmond albida. It was only a couple of seconds. That's it, in front of Alaska.

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In front of Alaska,

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Alaska, he was more severe against Arizona than Alma moon.

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He was more severe. Why? Because he saw what happened earlier. In the time of his father and the time of his uncle. We have a moon, we have an AutoSum and we have a washer, three hola of vanilla bass, the fitna

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kept happening at their time until the time of Allah. Allah fifth, he decided to kill him and

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he decided to kill a mammal, the son of ilasik and Maddie. He says, My father every time there is someone who wants to be executed, he would bring us to witness that as if it is a show. So I remember a lady says the son of Alaska, he says, I remember one time a shave, he meant a mammogram, Allah. He came. And he said Salam aleikum. ameerul momineen saying Salaam to Allah. And Rafiq said bless Allah, Allah Allah. So Mr. Muhammad Rahim Allah said, ma Oksana mata bukata de Vaca amirul mumineen.

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Your mentor, he did not teach you the good manners. He's telling this the halifa while he was shackled, he was brought with his handcuffs with his shackles to his neck. So he told him Alonzo Jessie's way that you don't get to hear how you mean how to do her when you are saluted. When you will

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Given this alarm, you either give it back equally or better. You give it better or equal to it for how you react and even how to do you did not do either of those two options that allows or gave you another been able to add was witnessing that so he told the halifa This man is a speaker