On Bbc 1
Channel: Ahmed Deedat
File Size: 26.80MB
Episode Transcript ©
Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate and at times crude. We are considering building a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system. No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever.
I must be a God because I mean applies to so many people believing in him. But I don't read my Bible, because I don't think there's a lot of help in it really.
And I don't go to church unless I feel sad in which case I do. God's with us everywhere. When I look at the sky, look at that sky going on to infinity, something far beyond me or any human being. Yes, a lot of guys out there
doesn't the Bible that he knows all the stars by name has been to me a God's great power and great glory. And when I look at the small intricate things that nature speaks to me of how God has taken care of even the smallest manifestations of creation.
Good evening. Well always smooth manifestations of God's creation that the man on the film said, the purely products of chance is their own concept, have invented the idea of God. To put it another way, did God create man or man create God? It's a choice everybody's got to make this book, the probability of god that's just been published, makes the incredibly important assertion that modern thought is beginning to reveal the existence of a creator god. Its author, Hugh Montefiore the Bishop of Birmingham, is with us here tonight. And next to him. We have Paul Davis, who is the professor of theoretical physics at the University of Newcastle. And then on my left, I'm joined by
Professor Freddie air philosopher and logician and well known to all of us. And on my far left Professor Herman Bondi master of Churchill College, Cambridge, renowned scientist and president of the British Humanist Association.
We have with us as well, a very distinguished audience, I'm sure we'll be hearing from them later on in the program. It is a discussion on the nature and existence of God relevant today. We've already heard some of your comments which we recorded when we took a stroll outside St. Paul's Cathedral. To our surprise, we found most people rather interested in the idea of God.
Or to God, like
someone I can talk to when I pity on my agnostic.
The way he's normally portrayed is as an individual from the man's own image. I don't believe that.
I think it was not valid for a lot of people, especially for lonely people. And old people probably.
He's more reserved, when I'm on my own.
He's been, he's got a beard. And okay, back, back. I don't think he is a bad person, but it's just just the voice. I think is great. And it just helps you and then in the night, sometimes in the dark, you feel soundscape. But then when you think of God, you don't be scared anymore.
It's just a great man.
Say that's good like you somewhere.
I do believe there is something that that's
well not exactly makes decisions for us but knows more than we do.
Do you believe in the Gospel?
No, only actually from from the point of view that I do believe that there is a point beyond which people are unable to comprehend and when that point is arrived at then
They encapsulate the whole thing in the concept of a god. When I look at the suffering in this world, then I don't believe there's a God. There was a god, one cause of suffering that there isn't as well. Then again, I think of Ethiopia with a Live Aid concert, maybe there is still people together to get money to get the children, I think, yeah, there is not a big well, was our universe created by God or not? Humans? A curious book says yes, and takes a fresh look at natural theology, which, as far as I understand, it is the argument that says that you can perceive the existence of God directly from the evidence of nature. And that, of course, includes scientific evidence, human
to fury, couldn't it be argued that you are in fact, trespassing on other people's patch? Well, yes, you could argue anything, but I don't see why we shouldn't reflect on what the scientists have said, I think they will mix up science with the philosophy of science, that is its meaning and interpretation or anything, anyone can have a go at that. I certainly have and will continue to do. So. I don't want to prove from the natural sciences that God exists that that I don't think can be done. But I do think we can now see that there's a high probability that this world is not a random occurrence. And that seems to me to say a very great deal. Right. Herman Bondi, what do you actually
feel about that? Because Do you feel in any sense, it's a misuse of science? No, I wouldn't call it a misuse. And I was very much impressed by the book for erudition. And for its honesty, but I do think that the argument of this very good book leaves me stone cold, not because I'm short of or
not, because I'm short of wonder, I feel our universe is wonderful. And something to be awestruck by
what worries me is that this book will be taken by many people to prove Christianity, or at least to make it properly or to prove, or to make probable some other religion in which there is a revelation,
which makes people say, I know God's will. And that, to me, is a great source of evil. Now, what I must come back and say, that's all you can do from natural theology. It showed the hunger in men and women's hearts for God's personal self disclosure, which I believe that He has given us. And although terrible things have been done, in the name of religion, I will agree with you. I also think that the most wonderful things have been done. And I'm always interested in people like you only mentioned a terrible,
right? Earlier on Paul Davis, I described you as human curious scientific champion, and presumably, you've got a considerable amount of sympathy with you. Would you like to explain that a bit further?
Yes, perhaps I could summarize my own position, before I begin absolutely as being perhaps best described as and or struck agnostic, which is to say that, through my scientific investigations, I have become more and more impressed with the incredibly, stupendously intricate nature of the cosmos has become to understand the universe in greater and greater detail. So it seems more and more remarkable that things have been arranged such that in its broadest sense, the universe is self aware, that is that it permits the existence of intelligent observers, such as ourselves. And it seems to me that this is not something which is inevitable that the world could have been arranged
And that the fact that things have been arranged, so that we can exist and observe the world. And moreover, our existence seems to depend very delicately upon the organization of the cosmos and the nature of the laws of physics. The fact that that is so
seems to be a puzzle and a puzzle that deserves an explanation. In other words, I would like to know why the world is the way it is, I can't accept it as a brute fact, I would like some sort of explanation. Right.
I imagine that as far as you're concerned, we've been talking a whole lot of rubbish so far. I'd like to hear your view on the subject. I don't think we'll be talking rubbish, I think will be a lot of bad logic. That's not quite the same thing. What the last argument comes to is saying the world is arranged as it is, therefore, somebody arranged it. Now this is a very poor argument, because it could apply to however the web is arranged. All the cue you have said and all that I'm afraid the bishop says in the book, which I also admired, very much, I thought it was very honest, very erudite intercessor. Nevertheless, all he was saying was, there are these clauses that are these effects and
how the causes we definitely effects will be different. There will be studies to this. What is totally lacking is any justification for the assumption that
The world editors were designed and had the world be different, it would not be designed. And in fact, saying it's all designed by God is not an explanation anything at all. You're just saying here I gave up. But photons underrepresented with this science because the further that we're going to bring home a double daddy to make this often careful that we'll do. The reason why I'm interested in the natural sciences here is that so often you hear people saying the natural sciences have disproved God or there's no reasonable basis for believing in God, I'm afraid very as backing a loser here. I mean, it could just be a brute fact that human beings have evolved without amazing
capacities for relationship and for
their experience of God is phony, it could just be true, it could be true that our intimations of morality have no ultimate sanction. In other half our experience of what is true and good, beautiful has isn't a window into reality. But the simplest explanation of the lot, the simplest explanation in logic is that there is a creator, right? There are many other ways or looking for God, other than science. And some might actually say better way. And most of the world's religions believe that God takes steps to reveal himself and reveal the world to us. And I'd like very much to hear from McCool Krishnamurti, who is a Hindu who's actually sitting in the audience here tonight.
Hinduism says very clearly, as far as the creation is concerned,
it's not just God created the world and just left to itself. God Himself became the beings and the Hinduism strongly believes in God who creates, protects, and ultimately he deserves. This is the belief of God, and the Hindus worship him with farm and without farm. The nature is the other face of God. And the Hindu strongly tries to describe the indescribable by worshipping Him by various images. Can I go to Africa dance to talk about the role of Revelation is, the Muslim believes that God Almighty He reveals his messages in word form. And in that word form, this book, the Holy Quran, was revealed to the Holy Prophet Muhammad during the 23 years of his prophetic life. And it deals
with these problems more directly, instead of guessing, and God Almighty, He reasoned with his creation, by asking him questions. He said, Now, how can you not believe in God? How can you not believe in Him, seeing that you were non existent, and he brought you into being and he will cause you to die, and he will bring you back to life again, and to Him will be your return? How can you not in other words, the way you are have been computerized is the way the creator made you, you would naturally deflect towards God, as the magnetic mirror dust was not? Can I just ask you whether your God is the same God if you Montefiore's the bishops, it is the same God except that in our
concepts redefined. You see, the Archbishop ultimately will come to making Jesus Christ has gone, God incarnate. Now the Muslim says no bodies, God and men is men. Can I move on now Philippine as a Buddhist? What In fact, do you feel about this? Because your concept of God is quite different? Yes. Well, as far as Buddhism is concerned, there is rather a different approach, we feel that there is a fundamental reality or truth or ground of being which of course, is is in everything and behind everything. I think that many of the followers of theistic religions tend to believe that God is out there somewhere in the cosmos, and that it's necessary for human beings to try and somehow establish
a relationship with him. As far as the Buddhist is concerned, that reality is everywhere and in everything, so that the task of the individual is to understand that reality in himself. And that is the the methods that are developed in Buddhism, to help somebody to come to that realization, we feel that the the problem with a creator is that inevitably one was then asked the question, who created the creator? And that, of course, is endless. You can go on and on doing that. So somewhere you have to start with the first cause. And surely the first cause is the universe itself. Man is one way in which the universe experiences itself and your God is obviously very different than from
humanity or is God. There's a point that Herman Bondi raised about, you know, the fact that many terrible things have been done in the
In the in the name of religion, and I think it's perhaps important to point out that probably the reason for this is that people for a long time, I think, particularly in the West have had this concept, you know, I'm here, and the truth is over there somewhere, and there is a narrow path that leads to that truth. If you have that concept, which I sort of think of as a fan like concept, then inevitably, if you believe that you have found the right path, all the other paths are wrong. And your task is to force everyone onto that narrow path. Surely, it would be so much better. If we had this concept of the truth being as it were at the center of a circle, we are somewhere on that
circumference. And there are many different paths that lead into that truth. And the thing for us to realize, I think, is that the particular path that we choose is very much a personal thing. And it depends on many different factors, it probably depends on the on the the person that we have met that may have explained that path to us and various experiences we've had, if only we realized, alright, this path for me is the right one at this particular time. But that does not invalidate the other paths. But are you saying therefore that there's only one truth that we only have one truth that we can actually listen to an experience that can only be one truth with a capital T one
reality? And I think the point is that all the great religions have been trying inadequately in their own way to point man towards that truth. But for heaven's sake, don't let's, you know, have this idea that there is only this one, wretched, narrow path, and that all the others are wrong. Right. Can I move the discussion on and say that we're we've talked to some extent with revelation, but other people who are believers, and Hugh Montefiore has, if you like, supporters, who would only argue from design would say that it's much more about experience and not about either design or revelation at all. And the experience you want to hear other people would, and the experience is
showing himself to us, or us feeling him? And Eric Dell, you're an evangelist in the Church of England. Would you argue with that? I think I would a bit Yes, because
I do believe that you cannot prove God, scientifically. science can only deal with the material of this current universe, God is, is necessarily not of this universe, he's superior and outside of it. So consequently, you can't prove him scientifically or disprove him. But of course, you want to go much further than that. If there's a God who made me, I want to know who he is. I want to know what he's like. And of course, we Christians believe that he's actually done that set it for us and the person of Christ. Can we also believe he's alive today, and we can know Him? So that that's what we're here to say. And but anybody can I can actually say, go beyond just the evidence, whether it's
for or against, and say, God, if you're really there, I want to know you because I'm prepared to know the truth, whatever it costs me, right. You want if you're if I do actually think that religious experience is a very important point. And in my book, I say it's the convergence of, as I see it, Sam showing us we're not just random products, probably not just random products and conditions and experience. I mean, why is it that between 40 and 60% of people, even in this secular country, lay claim to some form of religious experience? Pretty. One quote I'm continually making is that the postulation of God explains nothing whatsoever, because it is consistent with anything that
happens. And of course, it's consistent with people having religious experience, I mean, or not having it or because it's just as you say, consciousness implanted. I mean, equally well, you could say, sadism is implanted. I mean, whatever is is, is but you've got to explain in some way that it would have been otherwise, if they're not being a creator, this is what is totally missing any kind of rational argument. I also wanted to bring up just something of the evidence, that is within human experience of just the sheer business significance. When I say to my wife, I love you, I mean, something. I do not mean I an accidental conglomeration of molecules, some some antediluvian swamp,
having to feel a totally accidental attraction towards you another totally accidental conglomeration, etc. I mean, I love you. And when if you say to me, but you're just an accident, happening to another accident, something inside me says that's not right. Now, that's not good scientific evidence. But it's human evidence. And I don't honestly think you can ignore it. It's part of humanity. And in the end, what it means is, I mean something because there is a meaning and there's a meaning. I must protest against the previous speakers to test misuse of the word accident. I have a right to Allah so very much. When I said, Robert, I don't do accident, I don't mean believe
that she can came into work and cause unemployment. I did Oh, by law, of course. Because this is his liberty and using these words
shucksmith with Freddie to do anything but both you and your wife on a product of an ultimate in meaningless process. If you mean that I think that our existence was planned by some supernatural being yes, no, it was meaningless. I do not accept the word meaningless. I do not think my life is meaningless. Eric by law has a very good deal of meaning is very intense has meaning for you. And ultimately, ultimate meaning means we're not going to move on because in fact, we don't slightly off half of our subject. And we haven't looked at other ways of experiencing God. Many people say that there is a different way, a much quieter way of experiencing God, can we ask this to mattina?
Hayden, I mean, I've listened with great interest to the arguments. And I couldn't help looking back over my own life. I mean, I found myself a Catholic born in Catholic Ireland, I thought there was nothing else in the world. And my journey has been about finding out all the different aspects of the truth. And I went through all the phases of trying to prove the existence of God from arguments and learning about the first cause uncaused. And it left me as cold as ice, it just, it just didn't do anything for me,
as a person. And I think in in these last years, it has been much more about looking for God within the design of my life, actually seeing design in my life, how Somehow, I am being led. I mean, even the fact that I join a call an order, which is dedicated to searching for truth
is not to me an accident. And I hear all the different truths. And I'm really excited about what's happening in science. Because I can see that that really is
it, there's a convergence of truth. And there's so much more humility, I'm not saying I'm humble, as they say, if you say you are you aren't.
But but I'm saying that the man is scientists, theologians, people in general are much more humble than they were, say 20 years ago. I mean, I was locked in combat with with Freddy air 20 years ago or so about conscience, I wouldn't argue that way. Now, I don't want to, I will, I can't match his mind. And I don't think the mind can actually say at all, I find myself going to my heart, about religion. And I just discover more evil in myself, and more good as I go along. And the revelation of Christ in Christianity helps me there immensely. Because I find that Christ didn't talk, theological argument or logical argument. He didn't use any of those. He talked about the lilies of
He said, The kingdom of heaven is like, that's a simile. So, for me, God is revealing himself in me, in everybody. You know, I felt really close to the Buddhist gentleman who's speaking over there. I really felt I can relate to that, too. I can I can look into the heart of a rose. And it speaks to me. I can also look into the Bible, and it speaks to me. Because are, you can't just say that that's not a valid experience, and that that's not a valid argument. It's not an argument at all. It's a very moving and personal personal position, which I lost What?
Quite well, this debate hasn't included one essential element. And that's looking at the alternative choice that belief in God is totally man made his eyes like how do you view that? Well, as an atheist, of course, I can't believe that God created man, I think my very last thing to do with it.
I have the distinct feeling that we take into provincial view of the terms God and religion. We think of it in terms of the old thing Church of England.
But of course, there is only one very small aspect of religion. Both Torquemada and St. Francis of Assisi, were religious and had an image of God but they were very different images of God, one from the other. The Ayatollah Khomeini, and Bishop Montefiore, I'm sure have quite different gods in mind, when they think about religion, even the Jehovah of the Old Testament is very different to the kind of God that the bishop is talking about. Something it's very important to realize that if man creates God in His image, as I'm sure he does, he has many different needs and consequently creates many
Different types of God. Can you can you define that a bit more closely? What do you actually what do you actually say? I mean, I can see humanity replanting, but can you actually simplify that a little for our audience? Well, if your personality is more like, wants to present a ties, is aggressive and so on, then you go for the kind of code that the Koran portrays, which wants to present a ties the world is warlike, and so on, if you are peace loving, you want to have an assurance of future life and so on and happiness, then perhaps you adopt the kind of God portrayed. But would you agree with that? I don't, man. You see,
I don't think that our brother has read the Quran
is either 99 attributes of God. And out of that this one that you are talking about his own existence? In this book, can I ask a question? Are you saying then the Muslim God is actually a peace loving God? Who wants peace in the world? Yes, yes. And he tells us that if, if somebody was against you, you have a right to fight back. I like turning the other cheek. What about the concept of the holy war? That is hard? Yes, that is a struggle for righteousness. For example, when she was under attack by Hitler, what you did was jihad. And we take our head to you to Winston Churchill, for putting the spirit into your people. Now, that is what is a defensive war. And you had to
retaliate. Because if you didn't, if you just sat back, you know, keeping Hitler at bay, it will have some of the purposes you have to attack. And in the state of nature, everyone has a right to do that. So it's time allows us to defend ourselves, and to extend our hostilities to a reasonable amount of satisfaction and retaliation, can I come back to haunt Isaac? And perhaps I'd like to develop it a little further, because we've actually heard an exchange between the two of you, but would you like to come up on a little bit further about other religions and not only about Islam? Well, it's not so much a particular religion, because within each religion, you have all sorts of
different gods, as I was trying to say is that of Taka, Martin, that Francis of Assisi are all Christian gods were entirely different. So man creates God in His own image, even within a given religion, and certainly between different religions, the god he needs, will be different God according to his own personal requirements, and to the kind of society in which he lives. Our society is different to that of the time of the crusades, and consequently, we need a different kind of God. Can I ask you then about the role of conscience? And where does consciousness come from?
Well, psychological experiments on conscience have shown pretty conclusively that you can manipulate it and created through a process of social learning, of lovi, and conditioning, and so on. It is something that is acquired through social influences, although there is also a strong genetic factor in it. In other words, all truism, the tendency to do good to others, is certainly to some extent, at least genetically controlled in the sense that if you look at identical and fraternal twins, there's a much higher correlation within the identical and within the fraternal groups. And the same is true of religion. I think that's a very important point. beliefs are, in fact, genetically
controlled. So where do you think conscience comes from?
directly with the last speaker? I have no quarrel with at all? Anybody in the general audience? Yes, in the front row, I'd like to throw out a definition that might be helpful to some people of the difference between religion and Christianity, because there's a distinct difference. Religion is largely man by his own efforts, some of which have been demonstrated tonight, in terms of mental gymnastics, trying to get to God, and looking at the most powerful thing like the sun and bearing to that Christianity is God coming from that. And I was interested in him in bondage remark that he's an anti revolutionist. If there's a God at all, there's no way we can know anything about him by
guesswork, only that he should reveal Himself to us, which he did in the person of Jesus Christ and became his conscience come from conscience has given to us by God, and we are in the process of numbing it, and pushing it down to suit their own purposes and interests, which is called selfishness. Other people in the world is where does general or where does the conscience? Where's the idea of conscience come from?
From the human soul, is the human soul speaking, speaking out and crying out for release?
Okay, it's not just fear. Do you not think that is an animal fear of fear of being found out?
Yes, Donna Rubenstein think it's a sort of fear of failure, a nation really being cut off from the rest of the community. And I think, perhaps that, for instance, that Live Aid event demonstrator demonstrated a huge sense of community
Everybody wanting to join? Would you share that? Well, I certainly feel that we are basically herd animals that all animals must have feelings like.
What do you feel? Well, I don't think conscience is to be equated with either wish fulfillment, or going with her because my conscience often forces me to stand out from the herd. I think it is the God given the means by which I
have to act responsibly. And I think that is I Harriet siebold is something for the I don't I don't understand it in animals. I look to the scientist, I look to the psychiatrist to see how it functions with the egg and the super ego. I'm not talking about that, and all about what it actually is. I think it's the God given faculty by which we can behave responsibly. And it's not to be equated with things like utility or welfare, or wish fulfillment or anything like that. I must protest against this assumption, certain taxes are God given as opposed to others I just read, for example, as you listen when he talks about love, indeed, when love is a human emotion, but there's
no particular reason to single that out, as applied to the existence of supernatural being any more than yellow human emotion. I mean, all human emotions are charted in the sense of terms of the kind of terms as as beings, or one histology would account for them. And just to single out love is, is quite arbitrary. I mean, I mean, the assumption is that we are naturally autistic territory and so on, but only because of some supernatural agency do we do another? This is absolutely to the facts we have in fact, as even David Hume pointed out,
principle of sympathy and eight principles, as well as the net print principle egoism, and one no more needs in the virus professional level, William hockey, let's get this straight. There is no reason on Earth, why we shouldn't go around acting like perfect pigs to a country, there is no big Monty Python foot boys to come and squash us if we badly yet a lot of us do act well towards our fellow man. But why should we not that was just the point that was made, because that is just protested against your assumption, then somehow natural for us to what to be to another unnatural to be decent to another what possible grant had in this world today, my experience is that it strikes
me that more people are being unreasonable to each other than are being reasonable. In that case, you should believe in humanity and and believe in the devil.
Protecting your data, counting human attitudes, that's the way you should go. Totally illogical, because a lot of species are selfish, basically, I don't know.
By no means the head.
But I wasn't saying that our being herd animals means that everybody has to move with the herd. What I do mean to say that we are not solidarity. We've got to have the faculty as other animals live together to get on in some fashion with each other. Tina Mehta. You just mentioned the demo with great plan. But the best Devil's best trick is to make man believe he does not exist. And I think that's what the problem is that you know, we are in a state of chaos suddenly, instead of harmony. And it is the state of harmony that we are trying to create in this world, and not distort the minds of children by showing them violence, and explaining that that balance is necessary to bring about
harmony. Krishnamurti agree Hinduism clearly says, what is God's answer to our dear friends question. God is true. God is love, and God is good. whatever name you call, it is God. Why allergy to the name God? Love beauty is God. So you don't actually feel that he's supernatural? That God is supernatural human to fury? What do you feel about that? Well, I do think that God discloses himself, in the smallest particle of matter, and in our human relationships, and in love is to me a window into God. But I do think that he has supernaturally disclosed himself to us. That's why I'm a Christian because I believe that he has been incarnate, as you said, that's what Christians
believed. I believe God was incarnate and suffered the worst that people could do to him. And this is to me the only way I can see my way through the problem of ego Can I just remind people and perhaps, human prefer in particular, of Einstein's concept of God, which was, yes, God who made the universe in wonderful ways, but had not the slightest interest in as human beings and was a total impersonal thing that couldn't possibly care for our prayers. I want to talk to a psychologist next Leslie Francis.
I'd like to go back to the question you keep asking, did God create man? Or did man create God? And I see that as a deceptively simple kind of language used the two completely different order questions. It is for the Theologian in me to come to the question, did God create man? So the psychologist in me would want to answer your question at a different way. Did man create the image of God, he cannot go beyond looking at image. And I suspect what we've heard in the discussion tonight is a whole lot about the variability in the image that is used. But we haven't been able to get on to the ontology. Beyond that image. I'm sorry, everybody, but we run out of time. The choice
that is open to us is whether God made man or man made God, it's now over to you. All that remains for me to do is to thank the audience for their contributions. And of course, the panel. I'm sorry, we didn't have time to say any more. Good night.
Mr. Chairman, if you would allow me, I would like my brothers and sisters to lose their limbs in the stand up and take a deep breath. Before sitting down again, please
take a deep breath or two.
the previous two legs. Mr. Chairman, ladies and gentlemen, the previous two speakers
have been dealing with this theme of
the east and west, getting together meeting the East Meets the West. It's a kind of a symposium we have been having.
And in that symposium,
the subject of law
seems to be very technical and very dry.
And to build bridges between the East and the West.
As a law, most probably in the minds of the organizers, they have taken me as a man from the east. And they are right in that I have really come from the east. I am a man was born in India, some 60 years ago. So I'm a really a man of the East. But since the team that have been selected for me is religious
about Islam. Now, I take exception to Islam being described as a religion of the East. If we take Islam to be an Eastern religion, then Judaism and Christianity are equally Eastern. Because Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, all these three originated in the same geographical area in the Middle East.
Though I personally come from India, and my forefathers were Muslims, or Muslims, originally, in the very dim past Hindus
are now to share this east and west. For the moment, if I agree that Islam is from the east, and the western religions would be then Judaism and Christianity.
For the focus of this discussion, see, I will accept that.
So what is the relationship between these three,
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam?
In reality, from the Muslim come to you, these three are not three religions. From the Muslim point of view, it's the one in the same religion, on different levels.
And in the fundamentals of the teachings of Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad, there is not an iota of difference.
In the fundamentals of the teachings of Moses, Jesus and Mohammed, there is not an iota of difference between these three.
And I prove it to you. If you see the very first commandment, as it was given by God Almighty to the Holy Prophet Moses, in Hebrew, this is what it sounds like. So Shama is a halo.
Which means here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Some 1300 years after Moses, a learned man of the Jews, described as a scribe. He poses the question to Jesus in the Gospel of St. Mark chapter four, verse 29.
He said, Master, in the Hebrew language rabbi, what commandment is the first of all?
And Jesus answers and says unto him in the Hebrew language, Shema Yisrael, Adonai, the Highland
Hill, Israel, the Lord, God, the Lord is one, he repeated word for word what was given by Moses and 1300 years before?
Not an iota of difference in the fundamental as given by Moses and Jesus coming to know that some 600 years later, after Jesus Christ, a Christian deputation
approaches Mohammed Medina, and they have a discussion and dialogue for three days and three nights, during the course of this diet of the spokesman for the Christian poses the question so Mohammed, all right, tell us now, what is your concept of God? and Muhammad, as the Muslims believe he was meant to say, on the authority of God, in the Arabic language is the one who Allahu Ahad say he is God, the one and only Mohammed said, I had, Jesus said, Moses said,
I'm asking what is the difference? Actually, it is the same word meaning the same thing.
The difference between effort and effort in Arabic, if I was a blackboard, here, they would have written it for you, if I would have had to make the effort, I just have to put a.on the hat it becomes hot. That's all is the only the difference of a.in the calendar in writing, but in the meaning, the sense 100% the set.
So we Muslims, we say that in the fundamentals of the teachings of the prophets, no different
than these differences that are there. We say these were out of necessity.
Say Islam, we say is the culmination of the teachings of Moses and Jesus brought to perfection. The Holy Prophet Moses, the Muslims, who accepted as far as we accept all the Jewish prophets as our prophets,
that Moses was catering for the needs of his people. They had just been rescued from the Egyptian bondage. They were travelling in the Sinai Peninsula, who is tourists, a nation under those circumstances needed a law that will give them quick justice, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. There was no time for lengthy litigations, there was no time for putting a man in prison, that anti social character, the ultra stone into that get rid of him. It was no merciful to kill stone that will leave in the desert to die of hunger and thirst. And he becomes an object lesson for others. He said, You see this guy here, according to a sister, she could have had 100 wives, because
there was no law.
There was no law among the Jews as to the limit of the wise Solomon, if you read the Holy Bible, we are told headed 1000 wives and concubines, 700 wives and concubines all together 1000 there was no law against the number of wives that one could add. So under those circumstances, if one was not enough, you would have taken another if to another
one you did you go interfere with somebody else's property, and despoiling somebody else's rights. This is this guy. He deserves day to day. And to me, this is the law iPhone, I do
a quick justice, get moving, there's work to be done. This was the philosophy, the psychology behind the laws that were given. And these laws we believe, were given by God Almighty, for the needs of the children.
But laws have a tendency to change the characters of people over a period of time. Any law, every law, they change the characters are people. Hitler, right, Germany, you know, one of the most cultured nations in Europe, the Germans
supposed to be that nation incinerated 6 million Jews. All right, some say it's a trip or it is not 6,600,000 is not 6000 if not 600. That is dramatic enough, just because they will choose you to destroy people, as is dramatic in a way that never 600 or 6 million. How could this nation do such a thing like that?
The land of goodwill between, you know, cultured nation, how can they know that? No, we can all be programmed. See, and the Hitler the program, the Germans that these are pets, you know these people here, you know the Jews, the Jews, the Jews are like this, the Jews are like that. And you once you hook up a nation on the level, emotionally and even the good hearted people they can see what's going on, but they close their eyes and they deserved. They deserve it. And they allow 6 million Jews to polish law in our own country.
Living in this country, everything is based on color.
And because everything is based on color, we become conscious to such an extent
that from my own experience, I can tell you that since I'm a talker, I talk religion and love to talk.
And I in light, I have been inviting people to whites, Jews, Christians, of course, the blacks as well, Indians, African scholars, but I'm talking generally about the whites now. I have had hundreds of whites come into my home.
No, I'm not. They enjoy dinner. They enjoy my food, my Korean rice, my spices, they enjoy it, and they enjoy my pop. Because everything that I'm speaking is from an angle which the man hasn't seen before.
Sushi enjoys my talk. And it just my food. But no white man has ever invited me to his cup of tea yet.
And I asked for the meeting subsequently in the street. Mr. And Mrs. Daniels legal products. I don't know if they still exist in a moment.
He was at my home. Mr. And Mrs. Beer
live in my home.
Mr. Mrs. may not know Jews.
But nobody ever invited me to his house for a cup of tea when I meet them in the street. Oh, they meet needs in the house. The missus is she's very good. She's very well. Secondly, my regards to her
job. as nurses, you people don't know how to reciprocate? Don't you reciprocate among young people? Of course you do. Then how is it that you don't treat me as you see at the back of your mind and the back of your subconscious. You are thinking
that if this guy comes along to my elite home,
or somewhere in Westwood, you know, with his funny headgear and his beard, you know, looking for number 10 Downing Street of yours. And people are watering the garden and somebody is doing something else. And I come along and see the number. I come and knock at the door. and Mrs. Smith, you know, she opens the door smiling is Oh, Mr. D that can
go inside there. Five minutes goes half an hour goes. And the terms begin to ask
And if I was there, and his brother in law comes along, Mr. Smith's brother in law comes along, you have to apologize for my presence, you know what he's gonna do? He said,
you know, we went to his house and his family, you know, they treated so wonderfully. We had such a lovely meal, or that you had to go out of your way to explain my presence there. If it was another Mr. Brown, Mr. Brown.
Mr. D, that you have to explain, how does it happen that this happens to me? Yeah. So you have
this fear is there. So now, nobody invites me for tea ever, somebody might
still keep on saying nobody has. So
that is law laws change the characters of people. So by the time Jesus comes on the scene, the Jews had a low eye for an eye tooth for a tooth. So the juice for pot forgiveness.
See, I was trying to chase the birds several hours a day, in the time of Jesus. I was trying to chase the birds with the old fashioned sling, the one that David use, you know, with a stone, and that stone damage UI. So you go to the jacket says this guy gave me my damages.
It was an accident.
I was trying to change the boots on the field. So look, forgive me. He says no, the law says An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
So look, I'll compensate you.
For forgiven says no, the law says An eye for an eye that
sees when for the letter of the law is forbidden in the spirit. So Jesus Christ, another spiritual physician among the Jews.
He caters for the needs for the sickness, the man has forgot about forgiveness. So now he said you must forgive and forgive. How many times Lord is a 70 times seven.
That's in the Bible in the New Testament. 70 times seven. Calculate for
490 are you gonna take them literally yours at the same time?
said he said
If somebody says it has been said that the whole time, eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, but I say to you, this is no evil, he was striking the right cheek.
If a man takes away your code in your group also, if a fellow makes you know, a one minute walk with Him to said, agree with an adversary quickly, what are you doing on the way before he takes you before the magistrate and makes you depart with the last body
remedy for a sickness. But I say you haven't got that sickness. I was telling the British and I was there in London in July. And he was on BBC.
Somebody started throwing stones at the Muslim energy, you know, jihad or holy war. So I was telling them on BBC One, I said, you see this holy war
is a war of defense. You got to defend yourself, your person, your position, your faith, everything that is valuable, you have to defend it with your life. And as you're British, you did it.
You did the very same thing when Hitler wanted to invade Britain. I heard Churchill.
Churchill on the radio, he says, he said, We'll fight them on the beach, and we'll fight them in the air and fight them in the sea. He won't be broomsticks, he said.
And you fought to defend yourself. And then when the time came, you extended your hostilities, you started bombing Berlin and munition and whatever you did everything you did, I said you were entitled to do.
As, as given the master historian, he says that in the state of nature, everyone, every person has a right to defend his person and his position, and to extend his hostilities to a reasonable amount of satisfaction and retaliation in the state of nature. Everyone has a right to do that. You have the right to do that.
But now, I said you people are Christians, you were supposed to turn the other cheek. He was supposed to give you a probe when the man took over your coat. So when Hitler wanted to invade Britain, he went to good Christian, what we have done is to tell Hitler come over and take over Britain and our empire as well.
Because you're supposed to, you're supposed to do a video club. If you're supposed to walk two miles instead, no one says no, these are all the same evolution of religion. This is how God Almighty He caters for your needs your sicknesses from time to time, if the sickness changes, the remedy changes the sickness changes administration. So in that evolution of religion, we Muslims believe that Islam is the fulfillment of the teaching of Moses and Jesus. Actually, in real fact, we say it is one religion, on different levels.
If you have any questions, I'd be really, really happy to answer because I have been warned. This, as you know, much time has passed already. We were supposed to start at half past five. I have been here for four to five
hours, the Korean speaker half past five.
I'm very, very grateful to the sponsor
for this privilege. And the chairman for giving me this opportunity. And is there any questions that we can move further? If there is a difference? Why the ribbons? If there is a difference? Why the ribbons? Why are we at war in the Middle East? Why are you people fighting? Who the Jews and the Muslims What are you fighting for? So I'm telling, I'm telling my people, I get this a lot of visitors coming to the mosque, this mosque, you know, incidentally, Mr. Singh spoke about it, Mr. Chetty spoke about it. And incidentally, also I have voted for you. And it's given to me in the booklet, this is not the largest most southern equation, this one yeah, on Fridays, we get 4000
accommodation 4003 bus routes a week to this mosque. And among the people that visit us there is an invariably people asking the question, this is number one, what is the difference between your religion and the other religions? So I said, Look, no specially with regards to Judaism, Judaism, Christianity, the Jews and the Christians. We are the closest to the truth.
In our concept of the divinity, we are 100% with the Jew, the Jew says that God Almighty is absolutely unique. He has no partners. He has no science. God is not seen at any time. No man can see God and live and we give our hand of acceptance to the Jew that we believe as you believe. The Jew says no eating of the flesh of swine. We say we won't eat it. He says no eating of blood. We say we won't touch it is a circumcision with your circumcised What more do you want?
We believe in all the Jewish profits as our profits and all 30 roses, are you I'm not talking about the modern ones with them. We are at war.
I'm talking about profits and heroes in the Bible. We accept them or so we are at war. What are we fighting? I said we are both fighting for a piece of land. My brothers they added this appendage to them and my cousin the Jews this a Palestine belong to them. We are both fighting for a piece of land.
It is not a racial war. It is not a religious war. That doesn't secure the Jew because as a Jew, Jew doesn't appeal to me because as a Muslim, this is not this is my lamb says the other. You stole it, I want it back. The Jew says no, I inherited it 4000 years ago and that's a that is a political, nothing to do with a Christian, we also claim a unique relationship. Islam is the only non Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith for his followers to believe in Jesus. No Muslim is a Muslim, he does not believe in Jesus. We believe that Jesus was one of the mightiest missing apart, we believe that he was the Messiah. We believe that he was born miraculously without any human
intervention. We believe that he gave that to the dead by God's permission. And he was born blind in the letters but was going to get the only Parting of the Ways we say he is not.
He is not God incarnate, and is not the Son of God. Metaphorically, a, we are all the children of God, and he would be nearer to being the son of God than any one of us. Because to be more faithful to God than any of us can ever be from that point of view. Jesus Christ is pre eminently the Son of God. But our difference is when you say that he is the curtains and the curtain not made, so we take etc.
So if you've got any questions at any time now, or in the future, if you'd like to visit the mosque, that number is there, you can make an appointment and come and it also be my privilege to come with your life as a statue to the mosque, show you what goes on and take you out for lunch as well.
Thank you for
humanity, mankind and it was most interesting and I'm sure every one of us