Adnan Rashid – Trinity vs. Tawheed – vs. Samuel Green

Adnan Rashid
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The conversation covers the history of the holy spirit and its supposed "has been" meaning "has been," in the Bible. It discusses the church's confusion surrounding the holy spirit and its use in the church's ministry. The holy spirit's role in religion and the holy heart is also discussed, including its recognition in skipites and Christian origins. The church's history of four centuries after Jesus Christ is the largest Christian source of the church's history and the holy spirit is seen as the holy spirit and is the holy spirit in the holy heart.

AI: Summary ©

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			Hello, and welcome to the second of three debates between Adana Rashid and Samuel green. Today's
topic will be about the Trinity Auto haint. As mentioned, this is the second of three debates. The
third one will be posted tomorrow. Now both of our speakers don't really require much of an
introduction. They're very well known to both Muslim and Christian communities, seasoned debaters,
and prolific public speakers. Now, the format of this debate will be as follows.
		
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			There'll be 20 minute presentations to start off with. So we'll have Samuel Greene starting off, he
will have 20 minutes, and then we'll have another sheet 20 minutes. After that, there'll be a 10
minute reply. And we'll once again start with Samuel, there'll be a 10 minute reply. And then Adnan
will follow with a 10 minute reply.
		
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			After that, there'll be a five minute reply. And we'll start, as we do with Samuel. And then we'll
have Adnan following Samuel, of that section, we're going to have a question and answer segment. So
we'll have questions and answers from the people here in the church.
		
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			And we'll try and limit it to 25 minutes. So the session does not go on for too long. And then we'll
have concluding statements for minutes each. now. I'll give both speakers one minute.
		
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			Notice when their time is about to expire. And we will start with Samuel, who I'm going to call up
right now. Thank you very much.
		
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			Well, good evening, sir. pleasure to be with you this evening. I'd like to thank those who helped me
to organize this evening and want to thank Ed men, for coming along and agreeing to these debates.
And I'd also like to thank you for coming, and taking seriously the things of God and wanting to
grow and learn in this area. My pray to God for this event has been that whether you're a Christian
or a Muslim, that tonight may be a great time for us listening and learning from each other. asking
some questions, hopefully learning something new. And I also hope making some new friends. Now the
question before us tonight is Trinity or Tao heed, and apart from the word or in that title. It's a
		
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			fairly technical title, Trinity or Tao hood. And for some people, they might no may not know exactly
what those words mean. Now Trinity is the Christian understanding of the one God.
		
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			The doctrine of the Trinity says that God has both oneness and distinction. The one God has a
oneness of essence and nature,
		
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			but a distinction of persons with the distinction being of the Father, the Son and the spirit, who
equally sharing the one divine nature.
		
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			Tao, who is the Muslim understanding of God, tell heed focuses on the oneness of God is not just
saying that there is one God but that God is oneness, oneness, in name in attributes in worship, and
lordship.
		
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			So these are two different views of God. And tonight we're asking which one is correct.
		
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			Now my
		
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			turn this on, hang on, here we go.
		
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			So this is the structure of my presentation, I'm going to show that the prophets of God revealed God
as a trinity, that the Quran does not describe God as tell heed
		
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			the Trinity Calhoun and reason. And Trinity Tao, hood and worship. So that's what I'm going to
hopefully get through this evening. Now, as we begin, I'm going to look at my first point, which is
the prophets reveal God as a trinity.
		
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			And when I say that, what I mean is I'm looking at the Bible, because the Bible is not one book.
It's a collection of many books from many different prophets. Christians make no distinction between
the prophets. And so we read all of them. The books of the prophets build on each other. And they
meant to be read together. And together, they give us God's complete message. And that's what the
Bible is it has the Torah, the books of the prophets, the Psalms, and the gospel. And so what
Christians believe about God comes from reading all the books of the prophets. Now, what is it that
they tell us about God? Well, the first thing they tell us is that God is transcendent.
		
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			And invisible. And this comes out in the references that you can see that God is transcendent and
separate from creation. He's outside of creation. But he is progressively revealing himself to
creation. And we see this progressive idea in the Torah, where it says, God also said to Moses, I am
the Lord, I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob is God Almighty, but by my name, the Lord
Yahweh, I did not make myself known to them. And we see how God is progressively revealing himself
over time, through the prophets to humanity. Now, the first verse of the Bible really lays out a key
element of who God is. In the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth. Now the earth was
		
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			formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering
over the waters. So here we see God, the Creator, over and above all things, the transcendent God,
yet we also see God's Spirit, God's agent into creation. And he we see that God is his own agent
into creation. It's the Spirit of God, who is God's agent. And we see a distinction is made. There's
God and the Spirit of God and just this oneness of God, but also a distinction. As we read further,
throughout the scriptures, we see that the Spirit is God's breath, he's described, described as
God's breath is not created, but God breathed out His Spirit, the Old Testament of the Scriptures
		
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			before Jesus say that you can grieve God's Spirit. It says that God's Spirit is omniscient, that is
all knowing that the Spirit speaks, creates, instructs, and is all present. That is, the Holy Spirit
is described with the full attributes of God. And so we see a unity or oneness but also a diversity
of distinction within God. There's this monotheism with distinction. It's not absolute, singularity
or oneness. But we also see another agent into creation, and this is the divine image. You see, you
can't see the transcendent God. Yet, when we read the scriptures, we keep reading people who do.
		
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			It's an interesting phenomenon. I've given you the references there, Adam Walks With God in the
garden, God is seen by the Israelites in the exodus event, Moses sees the form of God in the
references I give you there, Isaiah sees a vision of God, and Ezekiel as well. And so this this
divine image
		
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			that is identified as God, and is another divine agent into creation. And the point I'm trying to
make here is that God is his own agent. He doesn't need angels to be his agent, or agents, he is
first and foremost his own agent into his creation.
		
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			And so the divine image, like the Holy Spirit is part of the identity of God that we see in the
prophets. Therefore, again, we see a oneness but also a distinction within God. Now I've got two
applicator points to start off with here. The first is that in the Torah, the prophets and the
Psalms, God is never described as absolute oneness is never described as absolute oneness. He's
described as having both oneness but also distinction. There's a distinction with the Spirit of God,
and the image of God.
		
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			And the second one is that, we begin to see this distinction already in the old in the earlier
prophets. Now, the next point I want to move on to is the Father, Son, and spirit in the prophets.
And what's interesting here is that the Father, Son, and spirit did not begin with Christianity.
		
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			First of all, we see that Israel is called the Son of God in Exodus chapter four, God is their
father, so that these are references from the Torah, the first two, so we see God is their father.
They are his son, and God dwells amongst them by His Spirit. Or consider the Messiah, the king of
Israel, the son of David.
		
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			He is spoken of with God as his father, and he is the Son of God. So this comes from the prophet to
Samuel, when God makes his covenant with King David. And he says, I will be his father and he will
be my son, or from the Psalms of David, I have installed my king on Zion, my holy hill, I will
proclaim the decree of the Lord. He said to me, You are my son today I've become your father. And
he's the spirit field son, as we see in Isaiah 53, where David speaks of having the Holy Spirit as
the Messiah. The next one is the prophet Isaiah, individually. And when Isaiah talks about the
future, Isaiah when he
		
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			He talks about again as a as a prophet before Jesus. And when he speaks about the future, he says,
that God, the Father will send His Spirit filled son, who will be the true son. Because what we saw
is that Israel as the Son of God, and the kings of Israel, the Messiah is of the Old Testament, that
they failed to truly represent who God was, and to be his son. And so the promise of the future is
that God will send his own true son, who will be the spirit field son.
		
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			Now, the point I just want to make out here the application is that the Father, Son, and spirit is
not a Christian idea. The Father, Son, spirit is not a Christian idea. It's actually the in all of
the prophets. Now, the Quran, though, denies this idea. It says in Surah, 19, verse 92, to 93, that
Allah has not taken to himself a son, not just that Jesus is not a son, but that no one is, you can
be loved by Allah as a slave, but Allah is not your father.
		
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			And, and this is also denied again, in chapter five, verse 18, of the Quran, and say, My point here
is that the message of the prophets is this revealing of the Father, Son and Spirit relationship
over time, whereas the Quran doesn't have the father son spirit relationship at all.
		
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			My next point is the the revelation of God in the Gospel. So this is the final revelation of the
Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we see here that the Holy Spirit is spoken of in much the same way,
but maybe a little louder. In the Gospel as he is in the earlier prophets, he is not just a power,
but he's a person. He's the counselor, he speaks and sins he chooses, he teaches, he's the breath of
God, he works and gives, he can be lied to he grieves He intercedes. You can bless them, him he
envies for holiness, he searches and knows, and He is the Lord. And so the Holy Spirit is given for
personhood in the Gospel material. The Divine image is seen in the person of Jesus. Jesus is
		
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			revealed as and spoken of as the divine image of God, the true son of God, God's divine agent into
this world. And we see his divinity of this divine Son, throughout the scriptures throughout the
Gospels, Jesus forgives sin in the way that God does. His presence led to a conviction of sin, he
calmed the storm the way that God did in the earlier prophets. He walked on water in the way that
God did in the way of prophets. He commanded spirits just with a word, the way that God did, he
chose, he chooses who will be saved, and he's the husband of God's people. And he comes in the
clouds of judgment as God will.
		
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			You say, Jesus says he is the divine Son, who is one with the Father.
		
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			And so that's the revelation we have from the Gospel, that God has both oneness and distinction. And
this has led Christians to the understanding of the Trinity, as they say, the Father, Son, and
spirit have a relationship within themselves, and that they all share in the divine nature.
		
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			Now application is, firstly, that this is what God has revealed throughout the profits when you take
all of the profits and look at what they say over a long period of time. This is the message that
comes to its fulfillment with Jesus. And if you say that you believe in the prophets, then I am
calling on you to accept what the prophets reveal.
		
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			And if you do that, then you can come to know God as Father as well.
		
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			Now move on to my next point, and that is only contain that the Quran does not describe God as Tao
hate, does not describe God as just a singularity and oneness. We see this first of all with the
attributes of God in that in the Quran, Allah is described with hands and, and eyes and sight and a
whole range of attributes, each of which shift fully, presumably within the divine nature. So
there's a distinction that is made within the descriptions of Allah. We see this particularly with
the Holy Spirit in the Quran in surah 15.
		
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			Here we are in Surah 15, we've got the corrupt the the Holy Spirit is spoken of as the breath of
Allah. And so again, this is a distinction here is God and His breath coming out and that breath of
Allah animates you and gives you life. Now that that's a distinction that's not oneness. That is the
one God breathing out His Spirit into you. It's not a description of oneness. In fact, you could
even argue that the spirit comes to marry as a man although I haven't got time to look at that. Now.
When we look at Jesus as well, we don't see Tao hate
		
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			this thing
		
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			Can you?
		
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			There we go. Sorry, I'm losing my time between just
		
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			maybe if we can stop my clock there, okay. All right.
		
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			When we look at Jesus in the Quran, we see that it's not a picture of townhead. And, and so we see
that Jesus creates in exactly the same way that Allah creates. Look at surah three, verse 49, there,
I, Jesus have come to you with a sign from your Lord, I create for you out of the likeness of a
bird, then I breathe into it, and it will be a bird by the love of God. Now the tell hate of
attributes, says that we have the same attributes as God in name alone, but that God has a different
type of attribute to us. But what we see Jesus doing he is exactly what God did when he created
Adam.
		
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			God made Adam from the dust of the earth, He breathed into him the breath of life, and Adam became
alive. And Jesus does exactly the same thing. Now, this story comes from a book called Thomas. And
it's a story about the Trinity, and how Jesus is fully God. And so it has Jesus creating the way
that Allah creates. Now, you may say, Well, Jesus only does this by God's permission. But that
doesn't actually solve the problem for the Muslim. Because creating is a unique attribute that
defines God. It's a unique attribute that defines God. And when Jesus does what only defines God
will then that's putting Jesus into the category of God in some way. It's certainly not Tao who'd
		
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			have attributes
		
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			or move on to reason. Sorry, this give me trouble. There we go.
		
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			Now, it's often said that telehealth is simple and straightforward, and that the Trinity is complex.
But I always say to you that if you think the telehealth is straightforward, then you haven't read
enough Islamic theology. Because there's plenty of discussion amongst the early Muslims, as to how
do you even What does Talmud exactly mean? How are we going to define it? And there were significant
arguments about this in the early centuries of Islam. He's a book on the subject of the divine
nature. And the the the author writes that the topic of this book is an interesting yet intricate
one, discussing it is complex and not easy concerning this subject, which is the Oneness attributes
		
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			and actions of Allah. And so he's saying here that it's not easy, and it's not easy, because if you
believe that God is just oneness, how do you explain all the distinctions and diversity that the
Quran ascribes to Allah? And as I said,
		
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			this was something that was debated in the early centuries of Islam. And the general answer came out
of Baylor kafer without asking how, without asking how. And so if you think that the Trinity is
beyond understanding, the is the Islamic understanding to ours, oneness and distinctions is, don't
ask, without asking, how.
		
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			What about the Christian understanding, though?
		
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			Is it logical to say that three can be one? Because that's what my Muslim friends will often say to
me, they'll say, How can three be one,
		
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			honestly, that we just need to think about this? And that it's actually quite reasonable for three
to be one, consider yourself?
		
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			Are you simply one?
		
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			Does not God dwell in your very midst? Is he not closer to you than your jugular vein?
		
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			You say, the God actually dwells within us, in our mind, God is in you in with your thinking, isn't
he? You're actually not one. God is with you, in your very thoughts,
		
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			or consider spirit position. Here we have a person who may be possessed by spirits, and they could
have three within them.
		
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			Now, I'm not using those as illustrations of the Trinity. But I'm just trying to point out that
personal existence is not straightforward. And if you say three can't be one, I want to say on what
grounds do you say that? It's simply not reasonable to say that? How God, how does God's personhood
exist outside of three dimensional time and space in eternity? Three can be one, there's nothing
irrational in the Trinity. It is quite possible.
		
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			My last point is a hopefully I'll get this now. My last point here, and sorry. This is giving us a
little trouble. So it's out of sequence there. I want to say that Trinity Tao, hate and worship.
		
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			When it comes to the confession of faith, I don't see that Islam delivers Tao hate. So the
confession
		
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			A fight in Islam is, there is no God but Allah. And Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, that is God
and Muhammad. But in Christianity, it's in the name of the Father, the Son, the spirit, it's all
God. It's all God, or when it comes to prayers, in the Islamic prayers, prayers are offered to God
but Mohammed is also addressed as salaam alaikum. Mohammed is addressed in the prayers in Christian
praise. It's prayed to the Father, by this a through the son by the Spirit, it's all of God. And so
our prayers in Christianity because of the Trinity are all of God, our confession of God because of
the Trinity are all of God. The last example I'll give, and if I can, might be an extra 30 seconds
		
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			just because of the trouble I had with this. I'll just read the last example of the Blackstone
narrated. So Bukhari Muslim in Abu jarwin reported that Omar approached the Blackstone and kissed
it. Then he said, I know that you are a me stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not
seen the Prophet hissing you, then I would never have kissed you. I don't have time to read any more
than that. But my point here is that that doesn't really seemed like taboo to me. To be in fact, I
sorry, I do need to read that last part of it. It says
		
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			it is now and however the kissing the black stone signifies respect the recognition of our
obligation toward it and using it as a means of seeking ours blessing. Now using stones is part of
our worship of God is not tallied. And so I don't say that Islam delivers the trailhead worship of
God that it promises to conclude now, tonight I've showed that the prophets reveal God as Trinity,
that the Quran does not describe God as Tao heed that when it comes to reason, the Tao hate has its
own difficulties, and that three can be one. And that with tel hate Trinity and worship, the Trinity
truly gives worship to God alone. Thank you very much.
		
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			Samuel Greene, exactly 20 minutes.
		
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			Thank you.
		
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			Thank you, Samuel, for that presentation. I'm very happy to debate, discuss dialogue with Samuel.
He's a gentleman, I have found him to be a very pleasant person. And this is the spirit we want to
proceed in. We want to encourage the spirit of friendship
		
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			and
		
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			mutual respect, cordiality between Christians and Muslims. Unfortunately, there is a lot of hate in
the world. And we want to diminish that hate with love and compassion. And tonight, ladies and
gentlemen, when I do come up with some ideas, which may not be very acceptable, or which may not be
very pleasant for some Christians, that doesn't mean I hate Christians, or I'm trying to hurt
Christians. Rather, it is our view based on academic sources, which is what we're trying to discuss
tonight. This is why Samuel is here today to challenge me on those ideas. So the topic today is if I
can have my presentation on the police,
		
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			Trinity versus the heat,
		
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			Samuel has talked about his view on Trinity and his view on tawheed. And I will do exactly the same
I will talk about the Trinity as well as the heat. The doctrine of tawheed is simply that God is one
God alone deserves to be worshipped. This is how the hate is and this is how simple it is. There is
no complication. There are not three persons or five persons or six persons 33 million Gods as a lot
of Hindus worship in India. It is a simple doctrine, that God alone who is one person one being
deserves to be worshipped. And this is the biblical view. Islam does not break away from the
biblical tradition in this
		
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			matter. Rather, Islam confirms the biblical version of
		
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			the heat because Bible also has tawheed as we will see in due course. So the Quran on Trinity is
very clear.
		
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			The Quran does not accept the Trinity. The Quran as we believe as the Muslims that it is the word of
God. It was revealed by God to Prophet Mohammed we believe the prophet of Islam. Prophet Muhammad,
is indeed a true prophet of God. He was sent by God he was not an imposter. He was not allowed
		
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			Rather, he suffered for 23 years to deliver this message to humanity. He lost his family, he lost
his friends in the process, it was not a bed of roses for him. So he went through a lot of
difficulty delivering this message of tawheed to his people and to the world at large. And he told
his people that he has been sent for humanity.
		
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			And the Quran clearly states that the Trinity is not acceptable, it is not from God. Rather, it is
the doing of man. As you can see in this verse on the screen, the Quran clearly states that
		
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			all People of the Scripture, do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor see of God but the truth
the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was a messenger of God, and his word, which he bestowed on Marian a
spirit created by him, so believe in God and His messengers say not three. Amazingly, the wording of
the Quran is absolutely miraculous. I'll tell you why. It's very simple, say not three. Now what
does the Quran mean? Say not three. It means that do not say three, whatever your conception may be
of the Trinity, the Christian throughout centuries, from the law for the last 2000 years have had
different conceptions of the doctrine of the Trinity or the Trinity or a triadic formula to be found
		
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			in the Bible, as we will see, in due course.
		
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			So, according to the Koran again, to emphasize the point, Trinity equals blasphemy because Trinity
is the essence of shirk, which is polytheism, which is equating
		
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			deities with God Almighty, the Creator God the Father, who is known. Gwen, when I say God, when I
say Allah, we are referring to God the Father, God, the Father alone was worshipped by the
Israelites, and that is the god they knew. And that was the same God who told the Israelites that I
alone deserved, deserve to be worshipped. For that reason. It is blasphemy according to the Quran to
equate other individuals as sacred as they may be with God Almighty. That's blasphemy.
		
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			Likewise, the heat in the Bible I talked about the hidden the Bible tawheed is there in the Bible.
This is exactly what Muslims believe in. This is how Muslims see God Deuteronomy, the famous Shema,
you can see on the screen here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord. Okay, Hosea 13, for a yet I
am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt no no god but me for there is no savior
beside me. Isaiah 43 1011 before me there was no God formed, neither shall they be after me. I even
I am the Lord and beside me there is no see we I want to stop here very quickly and comment on this
verse. Now God is talking to the Israelites telling them there is no god other than me. There was no
		
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			God before me, there will be no God after me. Now, the Trinity is not known to the Israelites. By
this stage, the Israelites have no idea as to what the Trinity is, they have never heard of it. They
don't know what it is. They worship one person, and that is the Father. Again, according to the book
of Isaiah, chapter 63, verse 16, Father is the God speaking to the Israelites. Now if that God is
speaking to the Israelites, and telling the Israelites that they will be no God after me. So why
should the Israelites believe in two more persons added into godhead later on by the Christians, as
we will see in due course, how that happened. First Chronicles 1720 Oh, Lord God, for there is none
		
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			like the Neither is there any god beside the, this is exactly we are told in the Quran, laser, laser
committee chain, there is nothing like God. There is nothing like him. And this is exactly what the
Bible is saying. Laser laser communication is Isaiah 44, verse six days, Thus saith the Lord, the
king of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first I am the last and beside me there
is no God. This is the heat.
		
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			This is the heat. And this is the default position. This is the default position. This is exactly
what the Israelites believed in. This is what Isaiah is Eco, Jeremiah, Joshua, Abraham, Moses,
Isaac, Jacob named them all there is believe in this doctrine. This this. They didn't believe in a
trinity. They never preach the Trinity. They didn't know a trinity. Trinity wasn't even known to
Jesus Christ as we will see in due course it was an idea carved by Christians. And it took
Christians for centuries to come up with it as we will see in due course again.
		
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			So
		
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			here the New Testament
		
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			Also when we read it carefully, we see that Jesus Christ was not a Trinitarian. In the Gospel of
Mark chapter 12, verse 29, a Jewish man comes and asks questions. One of the questions he asks is,
what is the first commandment? And then Jesus tells him here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One
Lord. The famous Shama being a Jewish Prophet,
		
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			talking to a Jewish man, this is what he tells him. Now, if Jesus was a Trinitarian, ladies and
gentlemen, think about it. This was his opportunity to tell this Jewish man, you have been believing
in one person and one being the Father. Now the New Covenant has come, I have come with a new idea.
And now I am a person within the Trinity, so is the Holy Spirit. Now you need to worship three
persons, not one person alone, not the father alone. Rather, there are three persons, he doesn't
tell him that, and the questioner is a Jew.
		
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			And when he thinks of God, in His mind is the Father, not a trinity, when a Jew is thinking of a
god, he is thinking of a God who is unique, personal, who is one person, one being, who is the
father. And this is clearly confirmed by Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of john, chapter eight, verse
54, when he's talking to a crowd of Jews, and he says, it is not me who glorifies myself. Rather, it
is the father who glorifies me,
		
00:31:19 --> 00:31:47
			of whom you say that he is your God. Amazingly, Jesus directly acknowledges that the Jews are
worshipping father, not to Trinity. In the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, this was Jesus's
opportunity to teach this Jewish male Trinity which he does not. There are other passages in the New
Testament, which clearly, decisively conclusively rule out the doctrine of the Trinity.
		
00:31:50 --> 00:31:51
			And one of them is john 17.
		
00:31:53 --> 00:32:26
			Three, where it is clearly stated that Father is the only true God, Morehouse and Latinos in the
Greek language. That means no one else can be true God, Father alone is the only true God. So
problematic was this passage for later trinitarians in the third and the fourth century, that they
changed it, when they were commenting on this very passage, one of the one of the examples is St.
Augustine, when he was commenting on this particular verse of the gospel of john, he actually
changed the text
		
00:32:28 --> 00:32:30
			to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity.
		
00:32:32 --> 00:33:14
			And there are many passages we can talk about, but we will move on. So what did the Christians today
use to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the verses is there on the screen, you can
see Matthew 2819. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father,
and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the triadic formula. The Christians can find in the
Bible, the closest possible passage in the Bible to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity there
was one more but that was that was clearly a forgery of the fourth century, joining comma, one, john
five, seven was a forgery, which was thrown out of the Bible in recent editions. So here, Grant
		
00:33:14 --> 00:33:22
			Stainton, Grant grant Stanton, he states that this passage is actually a later development. This
cannot be from Jesus.
		
00:33:24 --> 00:33:38
			Because Jesus had already said, In chapter 15, verse 24, of the Gospel of Matthew, the same gospel,
I have not been sent to anyone but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So either Jesus is
telling the truth, they're always telling the truth here.
		
00:33:39 --> 00:34:21
			And we don't believe Jesus was a liar. We believe Jesus was definitely sent for the Israelites. And
here, it cannot be Jesus speaking to his followers go into the nations and baptize them in the name
of the Father and the Son. In fact, the closest companions of Jesus were against this idea of
preaching to the Gentiles. Paul had issues. In the book of Acts, chapter 15. And chapter 21, you can
clearly clearly read how Paul was facing problems with the disciples of Jesus Christ. One of them
was James, Paul was accused of abolishing the law and preaching to the Gentiles things they had
never known. So that's why Paul was having problems with the Jerusalem Jerusalem Council. And that
		
00:34:21 --> 00:34:26
			Council was headed by James the brother of Jesus, who spent a lot of time with
		
00:34:27 --> 00:34:38
			Jesus, unlike Paul, so they clearly did not believe in going to the Gentiles as the book of Matthew
claims here in this passage.
		
00:34:39 --> 00:34:41
			If we were to use this passage,
		
00:34:43 --> 00:34:59
			to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, just because those three persons are mentioned
together, the Father, the Son and the spirit, then we have other Trinity's in the New Testament Luke
926. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words of him
		
00:35:00 --> 00:35:24
			The Son of Man be ashamed when he shall come in his glory. And, and his father's and of the Holy
Angels. There is another Trinity there for you. If we were to look for triadic formulas, and every
time a triad is mentioned, you jump to the conclusion of the Trinity, the Trinity like the church
fathers, people like Tertullian origin, have politics. And
		
00:35:25 --> 00:35:30
			there are other individuals, like Irenaeus. These people wrote
		
00:35:31 --> 00:35:55
			on the Trinity and they mentioned a triad. They mentioned a triad no doubt in the writings you find
the Father and the Son and the spirit mentioned together, but never did they say that these are co
equal persons. Never did they say that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are co equal. Firstly,
spirit was a highly problematic issue for the church for the early church. And we will see in due
course, how
		
00:35:57 --> 00:36:40
			the sun was never equated with the Father by the early church fathers um, I mean by origin by
Iranians by Tertullian. All the names Christians use conveniently to support the doctrine of the
Trinity in the first three centuries. And I challenge Samuel tonight to come back here and quote,
one church father, from the first three centuries, again, I will repeat, I will repeat, quote, one
church father, from the first three centuries of Christianity, who said, the father and the son are
co equal and co eternal, you will not find a passage, believe me, I have looked, I have looked hard,
you will not find a passage, if Samuel can pull out something, I will be very glad to know it will
		
00:36:40 --> 00:36:48
			be something you know, I will appreciate as an as an important addition to my knowledge. So
		
00:36:50 --> 00:36:51
			the Holy Spirit
		
00:36:52 --> 00:37:35
			even for argument's sake, it was if I was to tell Samuel Samuel, Okay, no problem. When we read the
Bible, maybe the father there is no dispute we all agree the father was the god Israelites
worshipped. Even Jesus Himself worship the same God, the gospel of john chapter 20, verse 17, Jesus
tells Mary Magdalene, I send on to my father and to your father, to my God, and to your God, if he
is God, what games is he playing? Why is he telling this woman that I ascend onto my god? If Jesus
is God, he shouldn't be telling her I am ascending onto myself, I am part of that being I am the
second person within the Trinity, I am ascending onto myself, but I ascend to my God. Okay. That's
		
00:37:35 --> 00:38:21
			very clear, the Holy Spirit was a highly problematic issue. Even if we were to accept that the that
Jesus Christ was considered, or he was, God in in the New Testament, or even in the early church
fathers writings, Jesus was God. They all said, God, Jesus is God with capital G, and is co equal
and co eternal with the Father, even if we were to find a passage like that, for argument's sake,
let's assume I accept that Jesus and the father, were both co equal in the early patristic
literature. Let's assume for that, let's assume that for a second, what about the Holy Spirit, the
Trinity cannot be complete, cannot be complete without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third
		
00:38:21 --> 00:39:06
			person. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no complete origin, one of the most learned men in the
third century. He was, in fact, according to some people alive at the time that he was the man of
the church. You know, he was the most learned man alive. He is saying in the second, sorry, in the
third century, that we don't know what the Holy Spirit is, we still haven't decided it is undecisive
The matter is still not decided. We don't know what it can consist of, what is the importance of the
Holy Spirit? We move on? In 380 jd Kelly in his very important book, the history of the early
Christian doctrine, he tells us in 380, Gregory of Dred Gregory of nazianzus, in a sermon gave an
		
00:39:06 --> 00:39:48
			illuminating picture of the wide variety of views, which held the field on the Holy Spirit. By the
way, some he reports consider Holy Spirit to be a force others a creature, others God, others making
the vagueness of the Scripture, they're excused, declined to commit themselves of those who
acknowledge his deity. Some keep it as a pious opinion to themselves. Others proclaim it openly and
yet others seem to postulate three persons possessing data in different degrees. There you go. Three
at 350 years apart from Jesus Christ, the Christians still don't know what the Holy Spirit is,
generally speaking, there is no consensus among Christian learned Christians. I'm not talking about
		
00:39:48 --> 00:39:59
			the peasant in the field. I'm not talking about the butcher, or the hairdresser or the the Taylor,
I'm talking about. churchmen. I'm talking about clergy, I'm talking about the
		
00:40:00 --> 00:40:18
			learned men, they still they still don't know what the Holy Spirit is. So how can Samuel stand here
today and claim that the Holy Spirit is God with capital G it within the New Testament when the
earliest authorities are not sure even in the fourth century as to what the Holy Spirit is. It's
very baffling.
		
00:40:20 --> 00:40:23
			The creed of Nicea doesn't give that status to the Holy Spirit which
		
00:40:24 --> 00:41:01
			Samuel gave to the Holy Spirit. It simply mentioned the Holy Spirit. It talks about God the Father,
God the Son, they are both equal, they are of the same essence. But and in the Holy Spirit at the
end, if you see the last sentence and in the Holy Spirit, without explaining it was in the year 381,
the Council of Constantinople when the Holy Spirit was finally added as the third person within the
Trinity, by the three Kappa Darshan, fathers Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of nazianzus, and basil of
Syria. These are the three church coproduction fathers who added the Trinity or sorry, the Holy
Spirit into
		
00:41:02 --> 00:41:04
			the creed of Nicea, which was, of course,
		
00:41:06 --> 00:41:13
			issued in 325. c. And then 50 years later, another council had to be held to add the third person
into the Trinity.
		
00:41:16 --> 00:41:19
			And I don't have the time to read this quote. But
		
00:41:21 --> 00:41:24
			here, Basil Assyria, according to Stephen g Hall,
		
00:41:27 --> 00:41:29
			was actually not very sure about
		
00:41:30 --> 00:41:32
			your clock is running faster.
		
00:41:35 --> 00:41:44
			So basil, Assyria was not quite sure as to what the Holy Spirit is, according to other questions he
was talking to he was conversing with. So
		
00:41:45 --> 00:42:28
			in the 19th century, john Henry Newman, you know, when he was defending his Catholic tradition,
against attacks from Protestants, he made this point Thus, for instance, a person who denies the
apostolic succession of the ministry, because it is not clearly taught in Scripture or I conceive if
consistent to deny the divinity of the Holy Ghost, which is no way literally stated in Scripture,
john Henry Newman, who was a who was an authority in the 19th century, in Britain on Catholicism,
and final point, Bruce Metzger who died a believing Christian in his volume, the volume he edited
the Oxford Companion to the Bible, he states because the Trinity is such an important part of later
		
00:42:28 --> 00:42:45
			Christian doctrine. It is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the
developed concept of three co equal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations
cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. Thank you so much for listening.
		
00:42:51 --> 00:43:02
			Okay, thank you very much. Now, this segment will be the 10 minute replies, we'll start with Samuel
once again, he'll come forward and then we'll be at Nansel a call Samuel to come up here. Thank you
very much.
		
00:43:31 --> 00:44:13
			Okay, thank you for that. And then I will try to get through a lot of those points are, I guess my
response would, would be that he didn't spend a whole lot of time talking about the Islamic
position. And some of the issues that I think come with tallied up it was mainly a critique of, of
the Trinity, and that's okay. But I will try to respond to as many of those as I can. Now, first of
all, say that when the Quran says, say, not three, and we read, what the Quran is talking about is
talking about God, Mary, and Jesus, we see that in Surah, five, verse 73, to 75, where it's God,
Mary and Jesus, and that's not the Christian understanding, though, I'm sure it probably wouldn't
		
00:44:13 --> 00:44:16
			have accepted the Father, Son, and spirit, either.
		
00:44:17 --> 00:44:57
			You're saying that Christians have had different understandings about the Trinity over centuries,
and they debated this, but honestly, just because people debate points, and it takes a long time to
work them out. It doesn't mean it's false. Many issues take a long time to sort out. And as I
pointed out, in the early history of Islam, tel hate was debated. There is still no creed for tell
heed, and so in different Muslim groups will have different understandings of what tel Hadees today.
And in fact, when it comes to issues like God's sovereignty and free will, Muslims haven't sorted
that out. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not being critical. I'm just saying that you can't
		
00:44:57 --> 00:45:00
			say are Christians, we're talking about
		
00:45:00 --> 00:45:40
			For hundreds of years, therefore it must be wrong, that that method of argument actually doesn't
work. Now, you spoke about the Shema from Israel here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Christians believe that, that that's important to us. But to say that the Israelites therefore
didn't have some concept of the Trinity, I think it's true because when you read their scriptures,
they see the Holy Spirit, as as I pointed out in my talk, as all knowing as all present, as having
the attributes of God. And so there is this God is transcendent and higher than the heavens, yet his
spirit is fully divine, and amongst us, so the references I gave show that they did have some
		
00:45:40 --> 00:45:41
			understanding of that,
		
00:45:43 --> 00:45:54
			that are related to the Shema, you spoke about Jesus using are referring to the Shema in Mark
chapter 12. And it's absolutely true a man comes to Jesus and says,
		
00:45:55 --> 00:46:35
			What do I, what are the greatest commands, and he says, The first is, here, O Israel, the Lord our
God, the Lord is one, Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and your mind
and all your strength. And so it's true, if you look at that Jesus is saying, God is one. But notice
what Jesus goes on to say next, because in the very next section, he says, wild, so he's just been
talking to that man. And then the very next thing that happens is, while Jesus was teaching in the
temple courts, someone asked him, How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the
Son of David? Right? Jesus asks them, how can they the Christ be the son of David, the Messiah, the
		
00:46:35 --> 00:47:21
			Son of David, when David himself speaking by the Holy Spirit declares the Lord, that is, Yahweh said
to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your feet. Now, what Jesus is saying
there is that here's David speaking by the Holy Spirit, and David is looking up to the Messiah who's
at God's right hand. And he's saying, How can David call him his son, if David calls him his Lord?
Now, it's it's not a an argument that you may have heard before. But it's basically Jesus saying
that this the true Messiah is not a son of David, he's this one with God. And it's an important
verse on the divinity of Jesus. And so Jesus says the Shema, here, O Israel, the Lord is one. And
		
00:47:21 --> 00:47:45
			then he moves on to say, and I am the divine Son. And so he brings the two together. So I guess my
comment would be that with a number of the verses you referred to, if you read those verses in
context, and just keep reading them, you often get the answer that you're after. Now, regarding
john, chapter seven, verse three,
		
00:47:47 --> 00:47:57
			where you said, let me just quickly get to this, where Jesus says, Now this is eternal life, that
they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
		
00:47:59 --> 00:48:41
			And Jesus here calls the Father, the only true God. Now, that is actually still Trinitarian. What
would make that not Trinitarian would be if Jesus said, only the father is God, but that's not what
he says. And that's, I think, pretty sure what what you said that only the father is the true God.
That's not what Jesus says. He says, the father is the true God. We agree with that. And when you
read the rest of John's Gospel, Jesus is one with the Father and shares in that godness, too, and
that's why we have the doctrine of the Trinity. Now regarding our other Trinity's, you said, what
about the father? What about the sun, the spirit and the angels? You said, Yeah, you can find other
		
00:48:41 --> 00:49:03
			Trinity's That is true. The difference there is, of course, that the angels are said to be created.
And so they're not included in God, you could probably find a whole range of Trinity's, you know,
Matthew, Mark, Luke, or something, you know, you could find other three names, but you've got to
look at what the content of those names is and how it's being used. And in the case of the sun, so
the quote from Luke
		
00:49:04 --> 00:49:50
			nine, verse 26, with the sun, the angels in the Father, the angels are said to be created, but the
Spirit of God is said to be God's breath. That is, God doesn't create his breath, the spirit is of a
one nature with God, and the sun is spoken of as the Word of God, or the glory of God, again, not
created, but with God and of the same nature with God. Now, you asked for me to find you, one church
father from the early centuries, who speaks about Jesus divinity. I don't know how specific you want
to be on it being co equal, but it's certainly that they certainly do speak about him being God. And
so I can give you some references here Polycarp in his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 12, verse
		
00:49:50 --> 00:49:59
			two, Ignatius, in these letters to the Ephesians. So Ignatius, let me just get some dates for these
people a little hard to get all the information up here for you.
		
00:50:00 --> 00:50:36
			But I can assure you that they they so just get this Ignatius Polycarp. Who else is the mallotus, of
Sardinia from 180 Polycarp. From the end of the first century, Ignatius from just Justin Martyr. So
there are early church fathers which speak about Jesus as God, they call him the Lord and the
garden. It's a bit hard for me to get all those immediately up here. But you could follow that up
and just type into Google, early church fathers who speak about Jesus being God. And you could
follow that up. It's a little hard for me to do all of that here.
		
00:50:38 --> 00:51:20
			Now, regarding the Trinitarian verse and Matthew, chapter 28, verse 19, where Jesus says, Go and
make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit,
I need to say that there's no textual evidence for that verse not being original. In all the
manuscripts, there's no evidence, the evidence that was put forward by Graham Stanton was that Jesus
is going to the nation of Israel at first, and then at the end goes to the nations. And they're
saying, well, and nn was saying, Well, Jesus just went to Israel. Well, first of all, he didn't just
go to Israel. He didn't just go to Israel, there was a sequence of events that Jesus did. First, he
		
00:51:20 --> 00:51:50
			did his ministry in Israel, and then he sent them out. And so earlier in Matthew's Gospel, he sends
His disciples to Israel. Later on, he says, Now the time has come to go out. That's not a
contradiction. You can't use that as a basis for saying that verse isn't genuine. It's just not good
methodology. liberal scholars do that. Don't get me wrong. liberal scholars on Christianity say that
verse doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be original. That's how they work. Right? You
need to understand how these liberal schools work.
		
00:51:51 --> 00:52:32
			But it's just not true. And I would afford also from reading the Quran, the Quran accepts that the
Romans are Christian. The Karate accepts that the gospel went to people outside of Israel and
accepts that it accepts that the ever Syrians are Christian. It never says Romans and ever citians
you know, and all the people in Mohammed's like, you know, you shouldn't be Christian, because it
was just for the Jews, because no, Jesus went there. And in a similar way, now, Mohammed is going to
go there, and the Quran is going to go there. So I just don't see that. That one was going making
its point. Now, in terms of the Council of Nicea, the Council of Nicea didn't speak, at length about
		
00:52:32 --> 00:52:38
			the Holy Spirit because it wasn't an issue at the time at one minute. And what we need to understand
is that
		
00:52:40 --> 00:53:11
			the early church in the early church had similar questions that the early Muslims had, and that is
the early church was engaging with the Greek philosophical world. And for both the early Christians
and the early Muslims. They were dealing with Greek philosophy that had God as absolute oneness. And
that meant, how do you understand God's Spirit? How do you understand God's attributes? And it
wasn't just a question for Christians about the Spirit of God, but as a question from Muslims to as
they interacted with Greek philosophy. I finished it. Thank you.
		
00:53:21 --> 00:53:23
			Number 10 minutes five man, please. Thank you.
		
00:53:28 --> 00:53:32
			Thank you for that. Samuel again. Start my time.
		
00:53:35 --> 00:53:35
			Okay.
		
00:53:37 --> 00:53:45
			Ladies and gentlemen, Samuel had plenty of time to talk about the Trinity. Why is true? And he had
time to address my points as well.
		
00:53:46 --> 00:54:31
			I'm afraid he didn't address most of my points. My point was not whether the Church Fathers
mentioned Jesus God. I know they do. I've already acknowledged that. My question was, where do the
Church Fathers say that he is equal to God the Father, this is the point. A lot of the Christians,
when they talk about the Trinity, they think by substantiating the divinity of Jesus Christ, they
have already proved the Trinity, which is a false assumption. In order to prove the doctrine of the
Trinity to be true, you must show us why the father is God. There is no there's no disagreement on
that. You must show us why Jesus is God and who said, who said it and when was it said, number two,
		
00:54:32 --> 00:55:00
			the number three, the Holy Spirit is also God, fully God equal with the Father and the Son. What you
will not find with the Church Fathers for the first three centuries is a statement where one of
them, including all the ones mentioned by Samuel, will one of them said, the son or the spirit or
equal to God the Father, none I again, I will ask Samuel to come back. I know what Julian said about
the Trinity. I know what I
		
00:55:00 --> 00:55:42
			When you said, I know what Origen said, I know what Justin said. I'm aware of their statements. And
in fact, Christians today consider them to be heretics because they were subordination is, this is
exactly why they are not Orthodox Christians. Amazingly, in the late fourth century, a doctrine was
formed by the Christian church, when the Holy Spirit was finally added into the, the Trinity. And
then the earlier generations were anachronistically, condemned by later Christians, for not
believing in things what they did the things they believed in, for example, I preach a doctrine
today, five centuries later, someone else comes along, preaches to the people, people accept that
		
00:55:42 --> 00:56:23
			doctrine, which is different to mine. Then those people start to condemn me that I was actually a
heretic I was misguided. This is exactly what Christians do to their predecessors, the earliest
generations they patristic authorities, people like Origen, people like to Tolkien, people, all of
them are heretics. By the way, every single one of them is a heretic. And this is not an extreme
statement, go and read your theology and literature you will see that current Christians, because
according to the current conception of the doctrine of the Trinity, all three persons are co equal
and co eternal. While the Church Fathers Origen, Irenaeus, Tertullian,
		
00:56:24 --> 00:57:10
			Justin Polycarp, Ignatius, all of them didn't believe that they believe the sun was below the
father, he was a subordinate person or being to the Father. He may be God in some sense, but he is
not equal to the Father because the father generated the son, Father, he beget the son, therefore
the father is superior. This is very, very clearly stated in the writings of Iranian origin totally.
So their word subordination is moving on to some of the points raised by Samuel, that the tawheed
and the debates in the early history of Islam, show me one debate in the entire history of Islam,
where they are debating the number of persons in Godhead, one debate, one discussion on that matter,
		
00:57:11 --> 00:57:11
			none.
		
00:57:12 --> 00:57:56
			There was no misconception on the person of God. The Muslims from the day one to the day lost, have
believed God is one person one being, there is no debate in the entire history of Islam on the
person of God, whether he's one, two or three. No, that's that's a problem with Christian history,
not in Muslim history. Yeah. The nature of God has been discussed no doubt in the sense that how
does God work? What are his attributes? How does he manifest His attributes, names and attributes?
In reality that discussion has taken place in the Muslim ministry note is to no doubt. But that's
not what you are discussing in your history, you are discussing the persons of the Trinity, whether
		
00:57:56 --> 00:58:23
			the son is God or not. That's a huge question. That's a big question that can potentially make you a
polytheist. If you get it wrong, you are doomed. You go to Hellfire for believing a false idea. If
you are a polytheist, and I'm sure Christian will Christians will agree with me on that. If you are
a polytheist, you will not be in Paradise, you will not have eternal life, you will not have
salvation. You cannot possibly worship idols and
		
00:58:25 --> 00:58:33
			expect from God to forgive you and give you genma or paradise as we say it. Okay, so I'm going to go
back to my presentation again.
		
00:58:35 --> 00:59:18
			Even in new Catholic Encyclopedia encyclopedia, this question is raised. There is the recognition on
the part of aggregates and the biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman
Catholics that one should not speak of trinitarianism in the New Testament, without serious
qualification, there is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and
systematic theologians, that when one does speak of an unqualified trinitarianism, one has moved
from the period of Christian origins to say, the last quadrant of the fourth century, it was only
then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma, one God in three persons became
		
00:59:18 --> 00:59:52
			thoroughly assimilated into the Christian life. This is exactly what the reality is. This is what
I'm saying this is not a Muslim thing. Muslims have not invented this idea of this notion of
Trinitarian Trinitarian rhythm coming about in the fourth century. It is well acknowledged by
Christian authorities, is just our friend some of our fundamentalist friends who are, you know,
carrying Bibles in the hands and they are preaching to the masses on the streets. They are simply
not aware of this history. They don't know what is in is in the books of theologians, they simply
have no idea they are ignorant of their own history, unfortunately.
		
00:59:54 --> 00:59:59
			So how was the Trinity spread? Very quickly, I want to talk about this. This is how the Trinity was
spread.
		
01:00:00 --> 01:00:45
			By the might of the Roman Empire, Constantine died, a Unitarian. He was baptized by an alien bishop
on his deathbed, called Eusebius of nicomedia. Then, his son constantius came to power, who upheld
the arion doctrine. arion is not important that the issue is, is Jesus God constantly has been
believed that his brother constants on the other hand, his rival in the Empire believed otherwise he
upheld the Nicene Creed, while constantius didn't follow that, when constantius died, the Empire was
handed over to Theodosius and theodosian code was issued, and it was theodosian code.
		
01:00:46 --> 01:01:20
			That became the reason why Christians became trinitarians. Later on in the fourth century, the
majority was still Unitarians in some shape, or form. Of course, they are different beliefs. Of
course, they saw Jesus differently to how we see him today, or how Christians see him today. But
they were not trinitarians, they did not believe in the equality of the Father and the Son. Up to
the fourth century, the majority of Christians in the world were Unitarians in some shape or form.
		
01:01:21 --> 01:01:26
			So why are we left with this? What do we do now?
		
01:01:27 --> 01:01:39
			either. Samuel comes back here today and shows us clear cut evidence in the Bible, that Jesus was
God. When we talked about the Gospel of Mark, chapter 1229.
		
01:01:40 --> 01:02:27
			What he didn't read was The next part where the Jewish man has been responded to by Jesus. And then
Jesus goes on to say, worship dialogue with all thy mind white with all thy heart, with all thy
soul, sorry. And then the Jewish man turns around and he says, Master, you have spoken the truth.
There is no one else beside him. Again, the Jew is talking of the Father, he is not talking of the
Trinity is talking of the Father, there is no one there is no one else beside him. Right? And then
Jesus tells him, you are close to the kingdom of God. In other words, what you're saying it's true,
it is correct. So, before we go further, how can you possibly worship a trinity with all thy mind,
		
01:02:27 --> 01:02:32
			with all thy heart with all thy soul? Let me give you one example.
		
01:02:33 --> 01:02:52
			The Christians today believe that Jesus has two natures Thank you. He has two natures, fully divine,
fully God, fully human. Now imagine, if Jesus has two natures, coexisting within his body or within
his being or his person, then,
		
01:02:54 --> 01:03:41
			fully God side must have fully God consciousness and rationality, we all agree, the fully human side
has its own rationality, because it is the fully human side. Now, that would mean Jesus is actually
not one person, he is two persons, because a rationality means a person, or rationality represents a
person because the person who the person can we say, an insect is a person. Insects do not have that
rationality. That's why we don't call them persons, right. But a person is someone who has an
independent rationality, God is independently rational. So is the man then there are two persons not
one person, how can you worship a doctrine like that? With all my mind with all my heart and all
		
01:03:41 --> 01:03:42
			die? So thank you so much.
		
01:03:47 --> 01:03:49
			We're gonna have five minute replies. And
		
01:03:56 --> 01:04:00
			now, can I have my slide up, please? my PowerPoint?
		
01:04:15 --> 01:04:15
			match it?
		
01:04:18 --> 01:04:18
			up? Yes.
		
01:04:19 --> 01:04:26
			Here we go. All right. Thank you for that admin. Now, you spent a whole lot of time on the early
church fathers.
		
01:04:27 --> 01:04:46
			In the end, that's beyond us to do here. We can have a debate on the early church fathers. I can
show you references as I did that they accepted Jesus as God. That exact phrase, I'm not in a
position to survey all early church fathers he to do that. Now, regarding origin and Tertullian. You
said that they were declared heretics, but
		
01:04:47 --> 01:04:56
			you need to understand that this is because they had a platonic view of religion. And that was they
said that religion was
		
01:04:59 --> 01:04:59
			they had a low view of
		
01:05:00 --> 01:05:25
			Revelation and it was the view of that all religions should be philosophically determined. And
that's something that the churches and Islam has wrestled with over the centuries, the relationship
between reason and Revelation. And so it's not true to just say they weren't discounted because of
their view of the Trinity. It's, there are many issues, that's a big subject, you can have a debate
on that, and we need to give that the
		
01:05:26 --> 01:05:27
			the time that would need.
		
01:05:30 --> 01:06:13
			Now you're saying that it was only in the fourth century that people started to see the Trinity as
you know, as as the Trinity, honestly, Christians were praying to the Father, through the son by the
spirit from the word go, that we're doing it all the time, when it comes to explaining the very
heart of God. Well, yes, it took them a while to work that out. I make no apologies for that.
Remember, we're talking about a revelation of the very character and heart and nature of God on the
side of you. That is the biggest question in the history of the universe, something that we will go
on and join God and who he is for all eternity. It's a big question, Christians from the beginning
		
01:06:13 --> 01:06:23
			of praying to the Father through the son by the Spirit, as they seek to understand what that looks
like, and how do we explain it? And how to carefully articulate it? Yes, it took a while to do.
		
01:06:24 --> 01:06:53
			Now, the view wasn't enforced by an emperor. That's a misrepresenting? No, it's not that it wasn't
there. And then this Emperor enforces it. The Emperor is went from one side to the other in much the
same way in the early history of Islam. They were metabolite Caleb's and non Morteza, like Caleb's.
And some impose their own view and others didn't. And so we have a similar thing with these
Emperor's but you always had the devout Christian scholars who had been abused, and you've got your
own Muslim
		
01:06:55 --> 01:07:35
			champions who in those early centuries stood up against the Morteza light, Caleb's and stuck to the
to the revelation. Well, it's the same with us. They were emperors who had the power, but you had
those who stuck to the Scripture. And in many ways, when you're trying to look at the early church
fathers and concentrate on those, I didn't put that forward. In my presentation, I was just looking
at what the Bible put forward, what the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms and the gospel site. And
they are clear that God is not absolute oneness. They talk about God's spirit being breathed out
from him, and being personal. It just does it all the way through the Scriptures. And you haven't,
		
01:07:35 --> 01:08:14
			haven't engaged with any of that which I put forward, haven't shown anything of mine, what I put
forward is being false. And when I put when I spoke about the divine image of God, and how the
divine image is given the full characteristics of God, and that in the Gospel, Jesus does all the
things that only God does. Again, you haven't interacted with any of that. And so I'm saying that
the scriptures are there. And you haven't really interacted with what I've put forward in my
presentation where I've shown that the One God has oneness, and distinction, oneness and
distinction, and that this distinction has to do with how he, how he interacts with these agents
		
01:08:14 --> 01:08:23
			into this world, there is the Holy Spirit of God, there is the divine image of God. And that's just
who God is. That's just who God is.
		
01:08:24 --> 01:08:59
			How can we worship the Trinity? Well, it's easy you pray to God the Father through the son by the
Spirit, it's all of God. Remember, I said that in my presentation that worshipping God in
Christianity is all of God. We don't confess anyone, we're not asking you to be baptized into Paul's
name. We're not asking you to, to acknowledge God and Paul, in the way that the Shahada has God and
Muhammad, we're not asking you to do that. It's all God of what we confess, it's all God in the way
that we pray initially.
		
01:09:07 --> 01:09:08
			Then five minutes, please.
		
01:09:17 --> 01:09:18
			Thank you so much, again.
		
01:09:20 --> 01:09:21
			The Trinity,
		
01:09:23 --> 01:09:31
			the rationality of it, whether it makes sense or not, I'm not going to indulge in that, because the
Christians themselves have declared Trinity to be a mystery.
		
01:09:33 --> 01:09:40
			And in the first book of Corinthians, chapter 14, verse 33, Paul himself has
		
01:09:41 --> 01:09:42
			stated that
		
01:09:44 --> 01:09:55
			God is not the author of confusion. If that's the case, then God hasn't done a good job. The
Christians have been battling with the Trinity for centuries, and this is not the doing of Muslims.
The first
		
01:09:58 --> 01:10:00
			conflict between the Trinity
		
01:10:00 --> 01:10:11
			Aryans are Banita Aryans and between the Unitarians had gone on for four centuries in the first four
centuries, of course of Christian history. And then theodosian code
		
01:10:12 --> 01:10:34
			was responsible for forcing the doctrine of the Trinity down the throats of all the Christian
citizens living within the Roman Empire. This is a historical fact not disputed by any historian.
Okay. Roman emperors had adopted this view. And they enforced this view by force upon the masses.
Now,
		
01:10:35 --> 01:11:20
			Samuel keeps bringing up the issue of Mozilla. Mozilla were never the majority, they were always
minority. They were always minority. They were a very fringe small group, who caused a lot of
trouble, no doubt, but they were a minority. I am talking about the majority Unitarians. They were
the majority they followed the view of the Muslims follow. Jesus was not God. He was not God. He was
simply a messenger of God. He was a prophet of God, he was a supreme agent of God, who was sent to
put the record straight who was sent to the Israelites. This is why the doctrine of the Trinity came
up with the Gentiles. It never came from the Jews. There were Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, who
		
01:11:20 --> 01:11:45
			continue to worship in the temple. Even in the book of Acts, we have references where the followers
the early followers of Jesus Christ, are going to the temple imagine going to the temple and
worshiping a trinity. There, we're going to kill each other over circumcision. The Book of Acts read
it very carefully. They were going to kill each other over circumcision. They didn't tolerate
difference on circumcision. How about
		
01:11:46 --> 01:12:11
			difference on the being of God, the persons of God? How about dividing God into three persons
imagine what the Jews would do to such a person in the temple. The early followers of Jesus were
worshiping in the temple, and they were not worshiping the Trinity. They were worshiping the same
God the Jews were worshipping people like James, and other members of the Jerusalem Council. The
Trinity came from the Gentiles.
		
01:12:12 --> 01:12:39
			And I agree with SAML, that origin Tertullian Irenaeus, Justin polycarb, Ignatius, these were all
victims of philosophy, Greek philosophy, to be precise, the stoic version of Greek philosophy. The
last theology which is to be found in the Gospel of john is actually a Greek philosophical, stoic
idea. phylo, who was a contemporary of Jesus Christ was a Jewish philosopher, who had talked about
the logos,
		
01:12:41 --> 01:12:51
			you know, the matter of logos. So here it is very clear that the Christians had adopted ideas that
were alien to Jesus Christ, and his teachings.
		
01:12:52 --> 01:13:29
			And there are so many verses in the Bible that clearly show that Jesus was not God. In fact, one of
the reasons why origin and Tertullian both of them, they did not believe that Jesus is equal to God
the Father is because of the verse, the father is greater than I. And they both quoted this very
verse in the writings. This is why Tertullian did not believe Jesus was equal to the Father. This is
why origin did not believe that Jesus was equal to the Father because father is greater than AI.
With regards to john 17, verse three,
		
01:13:30 --> 01:14:14
			Samuel came up with a strange interpretation of that verse because the verse is very clearly said,
it doesn't say only in fact, the verse does say only in the Greek language, it says menos and
listeners alone, alone solitarily uniquely, the true God, the Father, the Word Manas, see the
translation of the word Manas. In the Greek language, you will see, this is exactly what the Greek
says Manasa ality knows that God the Father is the only true God. If he is the only true God, then
what happens to Jesus is he God, also, Jesus did not know the hour and it's not only only Jesus,
even the Holy Spirit is my time up. Okay, thank you very much for listening. And during the q&a,
		
01:14:14 --> 01:14:22
			please do bring up these questions. If you if we missed out something if we didn't address
something, please mention it in the q&a so that we can address it. Thank you very much.
		
01:14:27 --> 01:14:28
			We will have a q&a now.
		
01:14:30 --> 01:14:40
			This will be a q&a that's going to be open to everyone here. We'll try and cap at 25 minutes as
suggested. After that, we'll have concluding statements. So
		
01:14:41 --> 01:14:43
			anyone wants to ask any questions?
		
01:14:51 --> 01:14:53
			Allahu Allah tala.
		
01:14:58 --> 01:14:59
			Yes.
		
01:15:00 --> 01:15:05
			Thank you to both of you for an excellent presentation on both parts.
		
01:15:06 --> 01:15:10
			My question is to Adnan with regard to the concept of tawheed.
		
01:15:11 --> 01:15:20
			As I understand it within Islamic, Helen, within Islamic teaching, the stone is kissed
		
01:15:21 --> 01:15:39
			partly because it is believed that it will intercede for the believers on Judgement Day. One assumes
that it can only receive that knowledge from Allah. Isn't that a compromise on Tao? Hayden shirk
that Allah's attribute of knowledge is shared with an inanimate object.
		
01:15:41 --> 01:15:45
			I don't know if I understood your question correctly, you think kissing the stone is somehow
		
01:15:55 --> 01:16:08
			not aware of that particular teaching? What I do know is that we kiss the stone to obey the Prophet.
So it is a form of obedience to the Prophet. And when we obey the Prophet, we get rewarded from God
Almighty. So there is no
		
01:16:09 --> 01:16:46
			there is no loss in tawheed, the doctrine of tawheed stands firm, we believe we worship one God, and
we are not worshiping the stone. We are not worshipping a man, we are not worshiping a tree, we
simply worship one God. Now what does that worship content constitute that worship may constitute
having a boss that worship may constitute smiling, that worship may constitute about bowing on the
road, on the ground, putting your head on head on the ground, you are being rewarded by God
Almighty, you're not worshiping the object. When I say the object, we don't when we have a bath, we
don't worship the water, when we
		
01:16:53 --> 01:17:01
			that this stone will intercede. And my point is that if an inanimate object is going to intercede,
		
01:17:02 --> 01:17:07
			to receive its knowledge from Allah, which means right sharing his knowledge with an inanimate
object.
		
01:17:09 --> 01:17:49
			Know, Allah sharing his knowledge with a stone with a tree, or with anything, if Allah, Allah wants
to cause something to speak, as a miracle, that's a miracle. The worst? Or the least you can say is,
that is it is a miracle. Okay. And we believe in the supernatural. You believe in the supernatural
as a Christian Christians believe that if God wants to cause something to speak, it will speak.
There are miracles of Jesus Christ in the in the New Testament. So if a stone speaks, then it's a
miracle. As simple as that. How is a stone speaking? Stone? That stone becoming God? And it doesn't
mean? Sorry.
		
01:17:51 --> 01:17:59
			Okay, good. We'll leave it as that because we're trying to cap at three minutes. Maximum per
question. Any other questions? Please, for anyone here? Yes.
		
01:18:00 --> 01:18:01
			microphone, please.
		
01:18:04 --> 01:18:33
			Hi, um, quick question with regards to Jesus, when he was a human being during his ministry. We know
he did many things as a human, he ate as a human. He basically went to worship, he prayed to God as
a human being. So when he was praying to God, like the other Jewish people, during this time, they
also worship God, and they believed in God. So when Jesus was believing in God, when he said to Mary
Magdalene, I go to my garden, your God, and also when he prays to God,
		
01:18:34 --> 01:18:51
			in the Garden of Gethsemane when he falls on his face, and he asked God to take the cup away from
me. So all this worship of God and praying to God, how did he perceive God, Jesus Christ himself?
Did he see God as a trinity? Or did he worship like the rest of the Jews, as a Unitarian God?
		
01:18:54 --> 01:19:00
			Or I would say, both, I would say our, the understanding is that
		
01:19:01 --> 01:19:19
			we are unable to save ourselves and God has come to us to to live the perfect human life to save us.
And so Jesus lives, the full human life. And so he he's born, he learns he, he prays he eats, as you
were pointing out.
		
01:19:21 --> 01:19:31
			When Jesus is doing that he is when he's praying, he is praying to God the Father, as as the son as
the divine Son.
		
01:19:32 --> 01:19:34
			So what we have is that
		
01:19:36 --> 01:19:59
			the broader principle is that God's actions into this world are from the Father, through the son by
the Spirit. And when God is acting from the Father, through the son by the Spirit in creating the
sun is as the Word of God bringing life and the sun is life and that's how the father works through
the sun as the word
		
01:20:00 --> 01:20:03
			God, in the Incarnation we have Jesus
		
01:20:05 --> 01:20:28
			as a man, God working through the son as a man. And so we have Jesus expressing his relationship to
his father, as a man. So you agree that he worshiped only the Father. He did not worship a triune.
God, know what I'm saying that he's worshipping he, as a man, he expresses his relationship to God
the Father.
		
01:20:31 --> 01:20:56
			Only God the Father, his book, yes. And so he is praying to God the Father. Yes. So he's a unitary,
sorry. So he's a Unitarian, he did not believe in a Triune God. So he did not worship the Holy
Spirit, and the father and the sorry, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as a triune. God, in
order to say that I'd have to say that Jesus denied his own divinity to acknowledge the father's
divinity does not deny his own. Thank you.
		
01:21:00 --> 01:21:02
			Any other questions, please? Yes.
		
01:21:03 --> 01:21:04
			microphone, please.
		
01:21:09 --> 01:21:11
			And this is question is for Adnan.
		
01:21:15 --> 01:21:27
			Yeah. Thank you. So you made I felt you made a big deal out of john 17. Three, you said that it had
to be changed by certain Christian fathers
		
01:21:29 --> 01:22:12
			by Augustine, and I'm just wondering, in john, particularly when he starts off in the beginning was
the Word and the Word was with God. And we go down to verse 14, it talks about and he became flesh
and walked among us. And that particular verse, you said in verse three, if you go down to verse
five, it talks about the fact that glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began.
I mean, why would you ignore the context of those verses? No one in this room, no one passed, except
for Jesus can say, glorify me with the glory I had before the world began. Yes, okay. We don't have
a problem with that, that glory does not make him God. If he our glory, before the word was created,
		
01:22:12 --> 01:22:29
			that means God had glorified him before the word was created, created, that doesn't make him another
person, or another deity, with God the Father, within Godhead. Because in verse three, it is very
clearly stated that Jesus excludes himself from divinity.
		
01:22:32 --> 01:22:51
			Yeah, no problem God, when God gives glory to someone, that glory is with God. Right? It is it comes
from God. So we have no problem with that is the problem with Christian friends is that they use
unclear, ambiguous, vague verses to substantiate the Divinity divinity of Jesus Christ.
		
01:22:55 --> 01:23:38
			Yes, the glory of angels is there. I read it from the Gospel of Luke, the glory of angels of God's
glory come from God and that makes Jesus divine that angels are also divine. I can read the verse in
a minute. If you if you give me a second, my point is now, the reason why Jesus so many Christians
have to rely on vague verses within the Scripture is because there's no clevers. If there was a
clear verse in the New Testament, where Jesus said, I am God worship me. Jesus had the time. Jesus
have the time. I know it's funny, but it's serious. It's serious. It's serious. Jesus had enough
time to say that the Pharisees are adulterous hypocrites, lying generation, you know,
		
01:23:39 --> 01:24:23
			and vipers, he had the time to curse the tree, he had the time to have a dialogue with the Samaritan
woman, he had plenty of time to say plenty of things. God the Father throughout the Bible is saying
again and again 1000s of passages 1000s they run into 1000s, I am your God worship Me, I am your
God, worship me. Here you are saying that Jesus is also God. Why couldn't just one sentence all he
had to say was one I know of the passages I know all the passages of the New Testament, you might
bring out on the divinity of Jesus Christ, not one of them is clear, not what if, if there was a
clear passage, then there would be no debate in the second, the third and the fourth century on the
		
01:24:23 --> 01:24:59
			nature of Jesus Christ, whether he's God. Of course, there are passages in the New Testament, which
may be interpreted in a different way. You could say you could say that Oh, because of this, Jesus
is God there are there are influences. What you have to understand is, you have to infer from the
verses in the New Testament, there is no clay, explicit verse on this matter, and more so on the
Holy Spirit. There is nothing on the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit became God. And it took for
centuries for Holy Spirit to be acknowledged, as God I read passages I mean, the Christians
		
01:25:00 --> 01:25:20
			two choices. They can blind follow they view on the Bible, or they view on the divinity of Jesus
Christ, and the Holy Spirit, or they can listen to the theologians and the historians who are
telling them, the Trinity simply did not exist in the first three centuries. It was carved in the
fourth century in its current form. Thank you.
		
01:25:28 --> 01:25:29
			Okay.
		
01:25:30 --> 01:25:36
			If the debate is on the treaty, I arrived late, so I'm not sure.
		
01:25:37 --> 01:25:43
			Yes, addressed to the gentleman, Sam. Sam knows Mr. Samuel.
		
01:25:46 --> 01:25:50
			No, Sam's sorry. Yeah. So the Bible?
		
01:25:52 --> 01:26:00
			Yes, yes, I arrived late. So if the debate is on the Trinity, I just want to stick to the Trinity.
Because
		
01:26:01 --> 01:26:37
			the Bible, our Bible, is always interpreted and understood in a context. You know, if you take one
scripture, one verse out of the Bible, you can disprove or prove anything. That's really what we are
after we read the Bible in a context. Anyway. So and our Bible also talks about the shortcomings of
all the heroes it puts in. And that's the honor the honor of the Bible. But what I want to say is
this Trinity thing, how about this verse?
		
01:26:38 --> 01:26:42
			JOHN, Chapter 14, I don't know if
		
01:26:43 --> 01:26:47
			I mean, I never thought I never thought I misunderstood it, but maybe
		
01:26:48 --> 01:27:33
			you will explain to me It says, Philip said, Lord, show the father and will be content, Jesus
replied, have I been with you for so long? And you have not known me, Philip? The person who has
seen me has seen the Father? How can you say, show us the Father? Do you not believe that arming the
Father, and the Father is in Me, the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own. But the
father residing in me, performs his miraculous deeds. Anyway, this is just one example. I'm aware of
in response to it. Now, Jesus, which part are you using to substantiate the divinity of Jesus
Christ? The first part where you said that Jesus said, if you see me you have seen the Father, that
		
01:27:33 --> 01:28:00
			part? Or the other part that Father is in me? And both, okay? The both of them don't work? Because
then Jesus says to His disciples, in the same gospel that you are in me, and I'm in you, does that
mean the disciples are all gods? No. Right? Right, same language, exactly the same language for
disciples, you are in me, and I am in you, right? Number two, seeing Jesus is seeing God, what does
that actually mean? Is he saying I am God? No.
		
01:28:02 --> 01:28:28
			Even in this sentence, even in this statement, if you contemplate and if you ponder upon it
carefully, you will see, Jesus is saying, I am not God, because God is a separate entity, if you
have seen me, you have seen God, if he is God, he would have said, I am God. You've seen God. Simple
as that right? Time. Sorry. Yeah. So if if, if Jesus was God, he would have said, I am God, you've
seen God, period.
		
01:28:29 --> 01:29:11
			Of course, because the father is saying it 1000s of times, Father has said it 1000s of times
throughout the Scripture, I am your God worship Me, I am your God, I am your Savior, there is no one
else beside me. There will be no one after me. There was no one before me, all of these things that
we have been said by the father, if the Holy Spirit and the Son Jesus Christ, are both Gods as
persons, then at least give us one statement, a clear statement. And having said that, it's not
because I don't think is there. It's the church fathers, your your history of four centuries after
Jesus Christ. It is the biggest evidence in my favor. The history that history tells you, the
		
01:29:11 --> 01:29:36
			Christians did not think so. They did not think so they believed in Jesus in different degrees. They
believed in his divinity, even the Divinity didn't mean what it means to you today. Their divinity
was a man of God, a prophet of God, an agent of God, a divine person, in the lesser sense, he was
not actually God the Father, he was not like him. He wasn't he was divine in a lesser sense. Now,
what does that mean? Again, Greek philosophy.
		
01:29:38 --> 01:29:39
			Got 10 more minutes of the
		
01:29:40 --> 01:29:45
			of the of the question on session. Who has got a question for Samuel?
		
01:29:47 --> 01:29:48
			This man here
		
01:29:49 --> 01:29:53
			you got 15911 for Samuel? Yes, the man in the back.
		
01:29:59 --> 01:30:00
			Thank
		
01:30:00 --> 01:30:01
			You very much Samuel, for your,
		
01:30:02 --> 01:30:45
			your, your your presentation. just had a question actually, throughout the debate, you've both been
discussing the nature of God, right? Some of your points have been, you know, against Islam, from
the perspective of, from what I understood to be attributes of God, not rather the nature of God. So
if we're discussing the nature of God in the Trinity, can you explain if that nature that you
believe today, and many of the Christians in here believe today is the same neat nature of God, that
the early church fathers believed in? So my question is, you see how you believe that
		
01:30:47 --> 01:31:04
			in the Trinity, they are all co equal gods, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit? Did the Church
Fathers conclusively say this is the case? Or was there a hierarchy system within that Trinity?
Right. Okay, so lots of issues there. The
		
01:31:06 --> 01:31:06
			the,
		
01:31:07 --> 01:31:55
			my understanding is that God is the Creator, and has an uncreated eternal nature, and that creation
has a different nature. And there may be a letter of being with degrees of separation down in what's
called the letter of being so you have God is totally uncreated and spiritual, and it goes down the
ladder to spiritual and then it becomes increasingly physical, till it's just pure physical. And
that that was the cosmology that many of the early people were working with something like that.
Now, what were the early church fathers saying, they were very aware of this. And so one of the
debates was about is Jesus Hama, booziest, or Hamas, Homer z. And this means is Jesus like nature to
		
01:31:55 --> 01:32:33
			God, or the same nature to God. And so they certainly were discussing that issue. And the reason
they did that the Trinity one out in the end was because of the descriptions that we find in the New
Testament where the Holy Spirit is spoken of as God's breath. And being God's breath, puts him not
in the created category, but the uncreated category. And when Jesus is spoken of as the Word of God,
it puts him in the uncreated category, and over and over in a relationship to the nature of God of
being the same nature. Yeah, that's,
		
01:32:35 --> 01:32:54
			yeah, but but but you see, my issue with that is, it seems like the nature of God is being described
through inference of verses from the Bible, through inference rather than clear, clear evidence that
they are co equal, because that's a big thing. Someone being co equal with someone else in a Godhead
is.
		
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			God and His word God in His glory, to describe Jesus as the glory of God is saying, he is of the
same nature, it's a monotheistic statement, you know, just let me finish, to say Jesus is the Word
of God is a monotheistic statement, because there is God and His Word. God's word is part of who God
is, what he creates, is who God is, end. And it's of the same nature, God does not create his word,
God doesn't create his word, and then his word creates the world. His Word is of the same nature to
him. So speaking of Jesus has the word of God and the Holy Spirit as the breath of God, put those
two,
		
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			put those two persons into the identity of God and of the same nature. So the verses of it, I mean,
the verses are clear, it's not some vague verse that Christians are using. It's the very
descriptions that are used of Jesus are describing you in terms of the same nature yet a distinction
of persons. So I can say,
		
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			who has a question for? We've got possibly time for two more questions, but I'm going to make this
quick because what, five more minutes? So one, one more question.
		
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			First, and then afterwards, we'll have a question for Samuel. So who's got a question for
		
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			you? You
		
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			give him the mic, please. Yeah.
		
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			This is, this is a mask to Mr. Adnan.
		
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			Based on the Quran, of my limited knowledge.
		
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			In 4361, it talks about the man of the hour Jesus.
		
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			It talks about in your commentaries, it says about he comes as a judge, and a ruler, if I'm correct,
and adjust judge and a judge and a ruler. So that talks about attributes of Allah, if, as Muslims
label your allies, God, so he's in that showing that Jesus
		
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			Having the same attributes of God, and it says he's coming to common church, all mankind.
		
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			So if I use the Quran that particular verse, how do you
		
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			see Allah attributes are not separate persons. This is what you have to understand if God is a
judge, the judge God is not a separate person who is judging. It is the same God who is judging
through other people, through Muslims, through Christians, through Jewish people, depending on the
times you lived in, right. So God does not become another person as a judge. And then there is
another entity sitting somewhere else in the heavens, who is sending the judge away as another
person separate as a separate being, not being, I don't want to use the word being because the
Christians don't understand it that way. The Christians believe that the that God is One being but
		
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			He manifests Himself in three persons. My question is, why can it not be four persons five persons,
right? Imagine if someone was to come along and a couple of centuries down the line and said, No, I
have found another person, another deity in the New Testament, these Christians are all wrong. What
is stopping him, he can turn on the order a second you can believe in three I can be even for what's
the problem. This is where the problem is that God cannot be divided. His person cannot be divided
is one being one entity, one person. Right? Now the Israelites worshipped him. This is how Jesus
Christ worshipped him and Jesus. This is exactly how Mohammed worshipped him. Muhammad peace be upon
		
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			him did not break away from the biblical tradition. Rather, he reaffirmed that he revived it after
the Christians had corrupted it. After five to six centuries of debating Christians are still
debating in the sixth century when Mohammed was born, the Christians are still having debates as to
who Jesus is. The Council of chance Chelsea dawn, when it was determined that he has two natures,
before it took Christians five centuries to determine that Jesus had two natures. Can you imagine
that? What games is God playing? The question is Yeah.
		
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			Sorry. Because the time is running a bit short. We'll have one last question, which will be to
Samuel who's got a question for Samuel, Greenpeace at the back the man who is very, very excited.
		
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			Under the law, finally, well, I was gonna have MMA match with my manager, if he didn't pick me. And
I've a question to Mr. Green.
		
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			Star, Adnan Rashid said that the Father is very clear, the father's got nobody disputes that, for
the past few 1000 years, we've been going back and forth, is Jesus God or not? The Holy Spirit's not
even in the picture. So the question I want to ask is, if all three divine beings are equal, then
why isn't much emphasis given on the Holy Spirit? I mean,
		
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			you're never taught to pray directly to the Holy Spirit, since that's the case, also related to what
Moses said as well, the question that he asked you, which I do not believe you answered it fully.
And I would appreciate if you can answer this question. Why did the early church have difficulty
with the definite divinity of the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit never in the picture? If you
can, please answer that question directly, I really appreciate you really want me to talk about the
Holy Spirit. And why the Holy Spirit Why is, you know in the picture, and why did the early church
fathers not to ask us to pray directly to him? It's because because God is Trinity. As I pointed
		
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			out, in my talk,
		
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			we have a transcendent God, who has who is his own agent into creation. So it's not that God has to
rely on angels or anyone else, he can be his own agent into creation. And we see his two agencies
are the divine image in the Holy Spirit, now the Holy Spirit. And so in any action of God, we see
that it's from the Father, through the son by the Spirit. And so when it's on the cross, it's the
the father who sends the Son to die, and the son is offered up by the Spirit. And so each of the
persons are always involved in any act of God, whatever God does, he does from the Father through
the son by the Spirit, but they have different roles within them. And so the unique role of the Holy
		
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			Spirit is as the one who inspires the prophets. And
		
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			he's the reveal he takes from the Father, and reveals to us and so it's the spirit in particularly,
in particular, who inspires the prophets, okay, it's the Holy Spirit. And so the Holy Spirit's role
is, is what we see in in the why the agents work out that God is calling us to worship to call upon
God as our Father through the son by the Spirit. And so the ultimate goal is for us to be at a call
God Father. So it's sort of a practical thing. It's not just philosophical. It's not a it's not a
it's not a philosophical answer. It's a practical answer that
		
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			Jesus came, so that you can call God Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. So all of God's
involved, but God is involved in that the Father and Son and Spirit are involved in different ways.
Which of the early church fathers understood it the way you just understood it now? What you just
said now?
		
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			It's just another question. I'm sure he's got 30 seconds. No, I'm gonna have to, we'll have to cut
you off. But
		
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			the time has run out is 25 minutes of questions.
		
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			Yes, now we're gonna have four minute concluding statements. We're going to start with, we're gonna
start with the seven. And then we'll have
		
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			Thank you very much.
		
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			All right, thank you for coming tonight and being part of this event. And I'll be hanging around
over here. If you want to come and talk to me later on. It is important that we think about the
things of God. And I do want to say that when we come to Trinity and Tao hood, we are asking
questions about the character and nature of God. And it is a big subject.
		
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			And we shouldn't just expect it to be simple. And if you just say, give me a simple answer like
that, I want to say we're talking about the very character and nature of God. Would you say that for
thermodynamics? Would you say that for quantum physics? What do you say when it comes to the
character and nature of God? what I've tried to do tonight is to outline for you, in my first point,
the big picture of the prophets of the Torah, prophets, Psalms and gospel, and I showed how the
prophets before Jesus clearly show that God has both oneness, yet also distinction, oneness and
distinction, that they there's the distinction of the Holy Spirit and the divine image of God, and
		
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			that the prophets before Jesus, all speak about the Father, Son, spirit relationship, that's not
invented by Christianity. It's the message of all of the prophets that comes to its fulfillment in
Jesus, and are shown in the Gospel, how Jesus goes around, he doesn't go around saying, I am God, I
am God. He goes around saying, I'm the divine Son of God, did you ask the wrong question, you won't
get the right answer. He goes around showing that he is the divine Son in what he does, and in what
he says, and he does say, on the divine Son, and demonstrates his divinity. As I pointed out, during
the things that God does, I then pointed out that the Quran does not describe God as tallied, in
		
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			that if Tao hood is understood as absolute oneness, and that oneness is an adequate way of
describing God. Because in the Quran, Allah is described with a whole range of diversity and
distinctions. It's not a description of Tao hood, we saw that the Spirit is God's breath, which
again, is a distinction that God, Allah pours out and breathes out into people to give them life.
That's a distinction. It's not absolute oneness. It's not a towel, hood. And then we saw that Jesus
creates as God creates in precisely the same way that God does. And so you can't have talent of
attributes where Jesus is doing precisely what God does. And the thing he is doing is what actually
		
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			defines God as God. And so my contention is that the Quran does not describe God. In terms of
childhood. We looked at Calhoun have we looked at Calvin, Trinity and reason and saw that, in the
early centuries of Islam, there were discussions, and I didn't get a chance to put these quotes up.
But there were discussions and arguments as to how you understand how he'd and as far as I know,
there's still not a creed foretell hate because Muslims have different views on it. And the answer
that came to explain it was below kafer. Without asking how, I don't have a problem with that, in a
sense, just don't be critical of the Trinity. If your answer is without asking how. Finally I showed
		
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			that three can be one, because personally existence even within our own experience is more complex.
None of us is a singularity. We have God dwelling in us their spirit position, how does God exist
outside of three dimensional time and space? Well, three can be one. And finally we looked at
Trinity and worship and saw that Trinity leads to confessing God alone, praying to God alone and
tell he doesn't. And to finally finish up, I want to say, if you want to experience the Father, Son,
and spirit, then please read a gospel account rated that the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark,
Luke, or john, one of the Gospels that were written by the followers of Jesus, and you can see the
		
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			Father, Son and Spirit as they work to do was they work together to save us? Thank you very much.
		
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			have none four minutes please.
		
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			Thank you.
		
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			Honey Rahim.
		
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			The Quran
		
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			Not described God as though heat is a very erroneous statement to say the least. The Quran clearly
states, Allahu, Allahu wa.
		
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			Your God is one God, toward tawheed comes to the root word wahaca. Another verse in the Quran
clearly states, all who Allahu Ahad, say or Muhammad, that God is one. This is exactly how Quran
defines goddess. One, though hate, to hate means oneness. And God is defined clearly in the Quran as
one. So there is a mistake there, there is an error on the part of Samuel. With regards to the
Bible, the Bible also defines God as one.
		
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			It is one of those fascinating things. I mean, I I have been amazed a number of times when I read
the Bible, and, and, and see how the Christians have come up with the Trinity. It is unbelievable.
And the reason why the Christians believe in the Trinity today is because they are not simply
they're not aware of the history. And when in the 18th century, some of the Enlightenment figures,
they read the history thoroughly. What happened, they went back to the original view, the original
view of God, which was unitarianism, some of the most learned men in
		
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			Christian Europe, they abandoned the doctrine of the Trinity. There were three outcomes, by the way.
One was, they became atheist outrightly, they couldn't make sense of the Trinity. They became
atheist. Number two, they became DS, they abandoned they believe they believe in organized religion.
And the third outcome was they became Unitarians. Who are we talking about? I'm talking about people
like john Locke. I'm talking about people like William Weston, I'm talking about people like Isaac
Newton, I'm talking about people like Thomas Jefferson, I'm talking about people like
		
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			they were Samuel Clark, who was a philosopher par excellence in the early 18th century, wrote a book
in 1712, if I'm not mistaken, titled, The scripture doctrine of the Trinity in this book, he proved
how the Trinity cannot be read into the Bible. So it was a doctrine formed in the fourth century.
And then the Christians started to read it into the Bible. Likewise, as a Muslim, I can if I want to
read a trinity into the Quran, do you want to see a demonstration of that? Right? There is a verse
in the Quran, for example,
		
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			I was a bit ly measured on the regime. Yeah, even Lavina mano a to LA to Rasulullah marimon come
over you believe, obey Allah obey His Messenger and those who are in power. This is again a triad in
the Quran, Allah, His Messenger, and those who are in power, if I want to argue that ontologically
they are exactly the same, therefore there is a trinity in the Quran. And now we worship God,
Muhammad, the messenger and those who are in power, we bow to them because they are three different
entities. I can read a trinity into the Quran, that Trinity was never read by the disciples, never
read by the church fathers. It was only read into the Bible in the fourth century conclusively. And
		
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			lo and behold, we have Christian churches around the world, professing belief in it, because in the
fourth century, coproduction fathers came up with it, and the rest of the Christian world was forced
into it by the Roman Imperial might, and we have trinitarianism today. Let's go back to the original
view. The original view is God is one he alone deserves to be worshipped. And he is not a man. He is
not a spirit, rather, he is unknown to us. And we know He created us we need to go back to him, like
other biblical scholars did, like Jesus did. And like Muhammad. Thank you so much for listening with
salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa.
		
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			Thank you for attending. So all those who did come and attend, like Samuel Greene said, if you do
want to ask any of the speakers questions, there will be around.
		
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			And obviously tomorrow, there is the final debate. So make sure you come seven o'clock, isn't it? It
will be seven o'clock here will be here in the church, seven o'clock tomorrow. You can attend that
for free. Thank you.