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Trinity vs. Tawheed – vs. Samuel Green
Channel: Adnan Rashid
File Size: 75.64MB
Episode Transcript ©
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Hello, and welcome to the second of three debates between Adana Rashid and Samuel green. Today's topic will be about the Trinity Auto haint. As mentioned, this is the second of three debates. The third one will be posted tomorrow. Now both of our speakers don't really require much of an introduction. They're very well known to both Muslim and Christian communities, seasoned debaters, and prolific public speakers. Now, the format of this debate will be as follows.
There'll be 20 minute presentations to start off with. So we'll have Samuel Greene starting off, he will have 20 minutes, and then we'll have another sheet 20 minutes. After that, there'll be a 10 minute reply. And we'll once again start with Samuel, there'll be a 10 minute reply. And then Adnan will follow with a 10 minute reply.
After that, there'll be a five minute reply. And we'll start, as we do with Samuel. And then we'll have Adnan following Samuel, of that section, we're going to have a question and answer segment. So we'll have questions and answers from the people here in the church.
And we'll try and limit it to 25 minutes. So the session does not go on for too long. And then we'll have concluding statements for minutes each. now. I'll give both speakers one minute.
Notice when their time is about to expire. And we will start with Samuel, who I'm going to call up right now. Thank you very much.
Well, good evening, sir. pleasure to be with you this evening. I'd like to thank those who helped me to organize this evening and want to thank Ed men, for coming along and agreeing to these debates. And I'd also like to thank you for coming, and taking seriously the things of God and wanting to grow and learn in this area. My pray to God for this event has been that whether you're a Christian or a Muslim, that tonight may be a great time for us listening and learning from each other. asking some questions, hopefully learning something new. And I also hope making some new friends. Now the question before us tonight is Trinity or Tao heed, and apart from the word or in that title. It's a
fairly technical title, Trinity or Tao hood. And for some people, they might no may not know exactly what those words mean. Now Trinity is the Christian understanding of the one God.
The doctrine of the Trinity says that God has both oneness and distinction. The one God has a oneness of essence and nature,
but a distinction of persons with the distinction being of the Father, the Son and the spirit, who equally sharing the one divine nature.
Tao, who is the Muslim understanding of God, tell heed focuses on the oneness of God is not just saying that there is one God but that God is oneness, oneness, in name in attributes in worship, and lordship.
So these are two different views of God. And tonight we're asking which one is correct.
turn this on, hang on, here we go.
So this is the structure of my presentation, I'm going to show that the prophets of God revealed God as a trinity, that the Quran does not describe God as tell heed
the Trinity Calhoun and reason. And Trinity Tao, hood and worship. So that's what I'm going to hopefully get through this evening. Now, as we begin, I'm going to look at my first point, which is the prophets reveal God as a trinity.
And when I say that, what I mean is I'm looking at the Bible, because the Bible is not one book. It's a collection of many books from many different prophets. Christians make no distinction between the prophets. And so we read all of them. The books of the prophets build on each other. And they meant to be read together. And together, they give us God's complete message. And that's what the Bible is it has the Torah, the books of the prophets, the Psalms, and the gospel. And so what Christians believe about God comes from reading all the books of the prophets. Now, what is it that they tell us about God? Well, the first thing they tell us is that God is transcendent.
And invisible. And this comes out in the references that you can see that God is transcendent and separate from creation. He's outside of creation. But he is progressively revealing himself to creation. And we see this progressive idea in the Torah, where it says, God also said to Moses, I am the Lord, I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob is God Almighty, but by my name, the Lord Yahweh, I did not make myself known to them. And we see how God is progressively revealing himself over time, through the prophets to humanity. Now, the first verse of the Bible really lays out a key element of who God is. In the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth. Now the earth was
formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. So here we see God, the Creator, over and above all things, the transcendent God, yet we also see God's Spirit, God's agent into creation. And he we see that God is his own agent into creation. It's the Spirit of God, who is God's agent. And we see a distinction is made. There's God and the Spirit of God and just this oneness of God, but also a distinction. As we read further, throughout the scriptures, we see that the Spirit is God's breath, he's described, described as God's breath is not created, but God breathed out His Spirit, the Old Testament of the Scriptures
before Jesus say that you can grieve God's Spirit. It says that God's Spirit is omniscient, that is all knowing that the Spirit speaks, creates, instructs, and is all present. That is, the Holy Spirit is described with the full attributes of God. And so we see a unity or oneness but also a diversity of distinction within God. There's this monotheism with distinction. It's not absolute, singularity or oneness. But we also see another agent into creation, and this is the divine image. You see, you can't see the transcendent God. Yet, when we read the scriptures, we keep reading people who do.
It's an interesting phenomenon. I've given you the references there, Adam Walks With God in the garden, God is seen by the Israelites in the exodus event, Moses sees the form of God in the references I give you there, Isaiah sees a vision of God, and Ezekiel as well. And so this this divine image
that is identified as God, and is another divine agent into creation. And the point I'm trying to make here is that God is his own agent. He doesn't need angels to be his agent, or agents, he is first and foremost his own agent into his creation.
And so the divine image, like the Holy Spirit is part of the identity of God that we see in the prophets. Therefore, again, we see a oneness but also a distinction within God. Now I've got two applicator points to start off with here. The first is that in the Torah, the prophets and the Psalms, God is never described as absolute oneness is never described as absolute oneness. He's described as having both oneness but also distinction. There's a distinction with the Spirit of God, and the image of God.
And the second one is that, we begin to see this distinction already in the old in the earlier prophets. Now, the next point I want to move on to is the Father, Son, and spirit in the prophets. And what's interesting here is that the Father, Son, and spirit did not begin with Christianity.
First of all, we see that Israel is called the Son of God in Exodus chapter four, God is their father, so that these are references from the Torah, the first two, so we see God is their father. They are his son, and God dwells amongst them by His Spirit. Or consider the Messiah, the king of Israel, the son of David.
He is spoken of with God as his father, and he is the Son of God. So this comes from the prophet to Samuel, when God makes his covenant with King David. And he says, I will be his father and he will be my son, or from the Psalms of David, I have installed my king on Zion, my holy hill, I will proclaim the decree of the Lord. He said to me, You are my son today I've become your father. And he's the spirit field son, as we see in Isaiah 53, where David speaks of having the Holy Spirit as the Messiah. The next one is the prophet Isaiah, individually. And when Isaiah talks about the future, Isaiah when he
He talks about again as a as a prophet before Jesus. And when he speaks about the future, he says, that God, the Father will send His Spirit filled son, who will be the true son. Because what we saw is that Israel as the Son of God, and the kings of Israel, the Messiah is of the Old Testament, that they failed to truly represent who God was, and to be his son. And so the promise of the future is that God will send his own true son, who will be the spirit field son.
Now, the point I just want to make out here the application is that the Father, Son, and spirit is not a Christian idea. The Father, Son, spirit is not a Christian idea. It's actually the in all of the prophets. Now, the Quran, though, denies this idea. It says in Surah, 19, verse 92, to 93, that Allah has not taken to himself a son, not just that Jesus is not a son, but that no one is, you can be loved by Allah as a slave, but Allah is not your father.
And, and this is also denied again, in chapter five, verse 18, of the Quran, and say, My point here is that the message of the prophets is this revealing of the Father, Son and Spirit relationship over time, whereas the Quran doesn't have the father son spirit relationship at all.
My next point is the the revelation of God in the Gospel. So this is the final revelation of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. And we see here that the Holy Spirit is spoken of in much the same way, but maybe a little louder. In the Gospel as he is in the earlier prophets, he is not just a power, but he's a person. He's the counselor, he speaks and sins he chooses, he teaches, he's the breath of God, he works and gives, he can be lied to he grieves He intercedes. You can bless them, him he envies for holiness, he searches and knows, and He is the Lord. And so the Holy Spirit is given for personhood in the Gospel material. The Divine image is seen in the person of Jesus. Jesus is
revealed as and spoken of as the divine image of God, the true son of God, God's divine agent into this world. And we see his divinity of this divine Son, throughout the scriptures throughout the Gospels, Jesus forgives sin in the way that God does. His presence led to a conviction of sin, he calmed the storm the way that God did in the earlier prophets. He walked on water in the way that God did in the way of prophets. He commanded spirits just with a word, the way that God did, he chose, he chooses who will be saved, and he's the husband of God's people. And he comes in the clouds of judgment as God will.
You say, Jesus says he is the divine Son, who is one with the Father.
And so that's the revelation we have from the Gospel, that God has both oneness and distinction. And this has led Christians to the understanding of the Trinity, as they say, the Father, Son, and spirit have a relationship within themselves, and that they all share in the divine nature.
Now application is, firstly, that this is what God has revealed throughout the profits when you take all of the profits and look at what they say over a long period of time. This is the message that comes to its fulfillment with Jesus. And if you say that you believe in the prophets, then I am calling on you to accept what the prophets reveal.
And if you do that, then you can come to know God as Father as well.
Now move on to my next point, and that is only contain that the Quran does not describe God as Tao hate, does not describe God as just a singularity and oneness. We see this first of all with the attributes of God in that in the Quran, Allah is described with hands and, and eyes and sight and a whole range of attributes, each of which shift fully, presumably within the divine nature. So there's a distinction that is made within the descriptions of Allah. We see this particularly with the Holy Spirit in the Quran in surah 15.
Here we are in Surah 15, we've got the corrupt the the Holy Spirit is spoken of as the breath of Allah. And so again, this is a distinction here is God and His breath coming out and that breath of Allah animates you and gives you life. Now that that's a distinction that's not oneness. That is the one God breathing out His Spirit into you. It's not a description of oneness. In fact, you could even argue that the spirit comes to marry as a man although I haven't got time to look at that. Now. When we look at Jesus as well, we don't see Tao hate
There we go. Sorry, I'm losing my time between just
maybe if we can stop my clock there, okay. All right.
When we look at Jesus in the Quran, we see that it's not a picture of townhead. And, and so we see that Jesus creates in exactly the same way that Allah creates. Look at surah three, verse 49, there, I, Jesus have come to you with a sign from your Lord, I create for you out of the likeness of a bird, then I breathe into it, and it will be a bird by the love of God. Now the tell hate of attributes, says that we have the same attributes as God in name alone, but that God has a different type of attribute to us. But what we see Jesus doing he is exactly what God did when he created Adam.
God made Adam from the dust of the earth, He breathed into him the breath of life, and Adam became alive. And Jesus does exactly the same thing. Now, this story comes from a book called Thomas. And it's a story about the Trinity, and how Jesus is fully God. And so it has Jesus creating the way that Allah creates. Now, you may say, Well, Jesus only does this by God's permission. But that doesn't actually solve the problem for the Muslim. Because creating is a unique attribute that defines God. It's a unique attribute that defines God. And when Jesus does what only defines God will then that's putting Jesus into the category of God in some way. It's certainly not Tao who'd
or move on to reason. Sorry, this give me trouble. There we go.
Now, it's often said that telehealth is simple and straightforward, and that the Trinity is complex. But I always say to you that if you think the telehealth is straightforward, then you haven't read enough Islamic theology. Because there's plenty of discussion amongst the early Muslims, as to how do you even What does Talmud exactly mean? How are we going to define it? And there were significant arguments about this in the early centuries of Islam. He's a book on the subject of the divine nature. And the the the author writes that the topic of this book is an interesting yet intricate one, discussing it is complex and not easy concerning this subject, which is the Oneness attributes
and actions of Allah. And so he's saying here that it's not easy, and it's not easy, because if you believe that God is just oneness, how do you explain all the distinctions and diversity that the Quran ascribes to Allah? And as I said,
this was something that was debated in the early centuries of Islam. And the general answer came out of Baylor kafer without asking how, without asking how. And so if you think that the Trinity is beyond understanding, the is the Islamic understanding to ours, oneness and distinctions is, don't ask, without asking, how.
What about the Christian understanding, though?
Is it logical to say that three can be one? Because that's what my Muslim friends will often say to me, they'll say, How can three be one,
honestly, that we just need to think about this? And that it's actually quite reasonable for three to be one, consider yourself?
Are you simply one?
Does not God dwell in your very midst? Is he not closer to you than your jugular vein?
You say, the God actually dwells within us, in our mind, God is in you in with your thinking, isn't he? You're actually not one. God is with you, in your very thoughts,
or consider spirit position. Here we have a person who may be possessed by spirits, and they could have three within them.
Now, I'm not using those as illustrations of the Trinity. But I'm just trying to point out that personal existence is not straightforward. And if you say three can't be one, I want to say on what grounds do you say that? It's simply not reasonable to say that? How God, how does God's personhood exist outside of three dimensional time and space in eternity? Three can be one, there's nothing irrational in the Trinity. It is quite possible.
My last point is a hopefully I'll get this now. My last point here, and sorry. This is giving us a little trouble. So it's out of sequence there. I want to say that Trinity Tao, hate and worship.
When it comes to the confession of faith, I don't see that Islam delivers Tao hate. So the confession
A fight in Islam is, there is no God but Allah. And Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, that is God and Muhammad. But in Christianity, it's in the name of the Father, the Son, the spirit, it's all God. It's all God, or when it comes to prayers, in the Islamic prayers, prayers are offered to God but Mohammed is also addressed as salaam alaikum. Mohammed is addressed in the prayers in Christian praise. It's prayed to the Father, by this a through the son by the Spirit, it's all of God. And so our prayers in Christianity because of the Trinity are all of God, our confession of God because of the Trinity are all of God. The last example I'll give, and if I can, might be an extra 30 seconds
just because of the trouble I had with this. I'll just read the last example of the Blackstone narrated. So Bukhari Muslim in Abu jarwin reported that Omar approached the Blackstone and kissed it. Then he said, I know that you are a me stone that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet hissing you, then I would never have kissed you. I don't have time to read any more than that. But my point here is that that doesn't really seemed like taboo to me. To be in fact, I sorry, I do need to read that last part of it. It says
it is now and however the kissing the black stone signifies respect the recognition of our obligation toward it and using it as a means of seeking ours blessing. Now using stones is part of our worship of God is not tallied. And so I don't say that Islam delivers the trailhead worship of God that it promises to conclude now, tonight I've showed that the prophets reveal God as Trinity, that the Quran does not describe God as Tao heed that when it comes to reason, the Tao hate has its own difficulties, and that three can be one. And that with tel hate Trinity and worship, the Trinity truly gives worship to God alone. Thank you very much.
Samuel Greene, exactly 20 minutes.
Thank you, Samuel, for that presentation. I'm very happy to debate, discuss dialogue with Samuel. He's a gentleman, I have found him to be a very pleasant person. And this is the spirit we want to proceed in. We want to encourage the spirit of friendship
mutual respect, cordiality between Christians and Muslims. Unfortunately, there is a lot of hate in the world. And we want to diminish that hate with love and compassion. And tonight, ladies and gentlemen, when I do come up with some ideas, which may not be very acceptable, or which may not be very pleasant for some Christians, that doesn't mean I hate Christians, or I'm trying to hurt Christians. Rather, it is our view based on academic sources, which is what we're trying to discuss tonight. This is why Samuel is here today to challenge me on those ideas. So the topic today is if I can have my presentation on the police,
Trinity versus the heat,
Samuel has talked about his view on Trinity and his view on tawheed. And I will do exactly the same I will talk about the Trinity as well as the heat. The doctrine of tawheed is simply that God is one God alone deserves to be worshipped. This is how the hate is and this is how simple it is. There is no complication. There are not three persons or five persons or six persons 33 million Gods as a lot of Hindus worship in India. It is a simple doctrine, that God alone who is one person one being deserves to be worshipped. And this is the biblical view. Islam does not break away from the biblical tradition in this
matter. Rather, Islam confirms the biblical version of
the heat because Bible also has tawheed as we will see in due course. So the Quran on Trinity is very clear.
The Quran does not accept the Trinity. The Quran as we believe as the Muslims that it is the word of God. It was revealed by God to Prophet Mohammed we believe the prophet of Islam. Prophet Muhammad, is indeed a true prophet of God. He was sent by God he was not an imposter. He was not allowed
Rather, he suffered for 23 years to deliver this message to humanity. He lost his family, he lost his friends in the process, it was not a bed of roses for him. So he went through a lot of difficulty delivering this message of tawheed to his people and to the world at large. And he told his people that he has been sent for humanity.
And the Quran clearly states that the Trinity is not acceptable, it is not from God. Rather, it is the doing of man. As you can see in this verse on the screen, the Quran clearly states that
all People of the Scripture, do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor see of God but the truth the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary was a messenger of God, and his word, which he bestowed on Marian a spirit created by him, so believe in God and His messengers say not three. Amazingly, the wording of the Quran is absolutely miraculous. I'll tell you why. It's very simple, say not three. Now what does the Quran mean? Say not three. It means that do not say three, whatever your conception may be of the Trinity, the Christian throughout centuries, from the law for the last 2000 years have had different conceptions of the doctrine of the Trinity or the Trinity or a triadic formula to be found
in the Bible, as we will see, in due course.
So, according to the Koran again, to emphasize the point, Trinity equals blasphemy because Trinity is the essence of shirk, which is polytheism, which is equating
deities with God Almighty, the Creator God the Father, who is known. Gwen, when I say God, when I say Allah, we are referring to God the Father, God, the Father alone was worshipped by the Israelites, and that is the god they knew. And that was the same God who told the Israelites that I alone deserved, deserve to be worshipped. For that reason. It is blasphemy according to the Quran to equate other individuals as sacred as they may be with God Almighty. That's blasphemy.
Likewise, the heat in the Bible I talked about the hidden the Bible tawheed is there in the Bible. This is exactly what Muslims believe in. This is how Muslims see God Deuteronomy, the famous Shema, you can see on the screen here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord. Okay, Hosea 13, for a yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt no no god but me for there is no savior beside me. Isaiah 43 1011 before me there was no God formed, neither shall they be after me. I even I am the Lord and beside me there is no see we I want to stop here very quickly and comment on this verse. Now God is talking to the Israelites telling them there is no god other than me. There was no
God before me, there will be no God after me. Now, the Trinity is not known to the Israelites. By this stage, the Israelites have no idea as to what the Trinity is, they have never heard of it. They don't know what it is. They worship one person, and that is the Father. Again, according to the book of Isaiah, chapter 63, verse 16, Father is the God speaking to the Israelites. Now if that God is speaking to the Israelites, and telling the Israelites that they will be no God after me. So why should the Israelites believe in two more persons added into godhead later on by the Christians, as we will see in due course, how that happened. First Chronicles 1720 Oh, Lord God, for there is none
like the Neither is there any god beside the, this is exactly we are told in the Quran, laser, laser committee chain, there is nothing like God. There is nothing like him. And this is exactly what the Bible is saying. Laser laser communication is Isaiah 44, verse six days, Thus saith the Lord, the king of Israel, and his Redeemer the LORD of hosts, I am the first I am the last and beside me there is no God. This is the heat.
This is the heat. And this is the default position. This is the default position. This is exactly what the Israelites believed in. This is what Isaiah is Eco, Jeremiah, Joshua, Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob named them all there is believe in this doctrine. This this. They didn't believe in a trinity. They never preach the Trinity. They didn't know a trinity. Trinity wasn't even known to Jesus Christ as we will see in due course it was an idea carved by Christians. And it took Christians for centuries to come up with it as we will see in due course again.
here the New Testament
Also when we read it carefully, we see that Jesus Christ was not a Trinitarian. In the Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, a Jewish man comes and asks questions. One of the questions he asks is, what is the first commandment? And then Jesus tells him here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord. The famous Shama being a Jewish Prophet,
talking to a Jewish man, this is what he tells him. Now, if Jesus was a Trinitarian, ladies and gentlemen, think about it. This was his opportunity to tell this Jewish man, you have been believing in one person and one being the Father. Now the New Covenant has come, I have come with a new idea. And now I am a person within the Trinity, so is the Holy Spirit. Now you need to worship three persons, not one person alone, not the father alone. Rather, there are three persons, he doesn't tell him that, and the questioner is a Jew.
And when he thinks of God, in His mind is the Father, not a trinity, when a Jew is thinking of a god, he is thinking of a God who is unique, personal, who is one person, one being, who is the father. And this is clearly confirmed by Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of john, chapter eight, verse 54, when he's talking to a crowd of Jews, and he says, it is not me who glorifies myself. Rather, it is the father who glorifies me,
of whom you say that he is your God. Amazingly, Jesus directly acknowledges that the Jews are worshipping father, not to Trinity. In the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, this was Jesus's opportunity to teach this Jewish male Trinity which he does not. There are other passages in the New Testament, which clearly, decisively conclusively rule out the doctrine of the Trinity.
And one of them is john 17.
Three, where it is clearly stated that Father is the only true God, Morehouse and Latinos in the Greek language. That means no one else can be true God, Father alone is the only true God. So problematic was this passage for later trinitarians in the third and the fourth century, that they changed it, when they were commenting on this very passage, one of the one of the examples is St. Augustine, when he was commenting on this particular verse of the gospel of john, he actually changed the text
to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity.
And there are many passages we can talk about, but we will move on. So what did the Christians today use to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, one of the verses is there on the screen, you can see Matthew 2819. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is the triadic formula. The Christians can find in the Bible, the closest possible passage in the Bible to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity there was one more but that was that was clearly a forgery of the fourth century, joining comma, one, john five, seven was a forgery, which was thrown out of the Bible in recent editions. So here, Grant
Stainton, Grant grant Stanton, he states that this passage is actually a later development. This cannot be from Jesus.
Because Jesus had already said, In chapter 15, verse 24, of the Gospel of Matthew, the same gospel, I have not been sent to anyone but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So either Jesus is telling the truth, they're always telling the truth here.
And we don't believe Jesus was a liar. We believe Jesus was definitely sent for the Israelites. And here, it cannot be Jesus speaking to his followers go into the nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son. In fact, the closest companions of Jesus were against this idea of preaching to the Gentiles. Paul had issues. In the book of Acts, chapter 15. And chapter 21, you can clearly clearly read how Paul was facing problems with the disciples of Jesus Christ. One of them was James, Paul was accused of abolishing the law and preaching to the Gentiles things they had never known. So that's why Paul was having problems with the Jerusalem Jerusalem Council. And that
Council was headed by James the brother of Jesus, who spent a lot of time with
Jesus, unlike Paul, so they clearly did not believe in going to the Gentiles as the book of Matthew claims here in this passage.
If we were to use this passage,
to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity, just because those three persons are mentioned together, the Father, the Son and the spirit, then we have other Trinity's in the New Testament Luke 926. For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words of him
The Son of Man be ashamed when he shall come in his glory. And, and his father's and of the Holy Angels. There is another Trinity there for you. If we were to look for triadic formulas, and every time a triad is mentioned, you jump to the conclusion of the Trinity, the Trinity like the church fathers, people like Tertullian origin, have politics. And
there are other individuals, like Irenaeus. These people wrote
on the Trinity and they mentioned a triad. They mentioned a triad no doubt in the writings you find the Father and the Son and the spirit mentioned together, but never did they say that these are co equal persons. Never did they say that the Father, the Son and the Spirit are co equal. Firstly, spirit was a highly problematic issue for the church for the early church. And we will see in due course, how
the sun was never equated with the Father by the early church fathers um, I mean by origin by Iranians by Tertullian. All the names Christians use conveniently to support the doctrine of the Trinity in the first three centuries. And I challenge Samuel tonight to come back here and quote, one church father, from the first three centuries, again, I will repeat, I will repeat, quote, one church father, from the first three centuries of Christianity, who said, the father and the son are co equal and co eternal, you will not find a passage, believe me, I have looked, I have looked hard, you will not find a passage, if Samuel can pull out something, I will be very glad to know it will
be something you know, I will appreciate as an as an important addition to my knowledge. So
the Holy Spirit
even for argument's sake, it was if I was to tell Samuel Samuel, Okay, no problem. When we read the Bible, maybe the father there is no dispute we all agree the father was the god Israelites worshipped. Even Jesus Himself worship the same God, the gospel of john chapter 20, verse 17, Jesus tells Mary Magdalene, I send on to my father and to your father, to my God, and to your God, if he is God, what games is he playing? Why is he telling this woman that I ascend onto my god? If Jesus is God, he shouldn't be telling her I am ascending onto myself, I am part of that being I am the second person within the Trinity, I am ascending onto myself, but I ascend to my God. Okay. That's
very clear, the Holy Spirit was a highly problematic issue. Even if we were to accept that the that Jesus Christ was considered, or he was, God in in the New Testament, or even in the early church fathers writings, Jesus was God. They all said, God, Jesus is God with capital G, and is co equal and co eternal with the Father, even if we were to find a passage like that, for argument's sake, let's assume I accept that Jesus and the father, were both co equal in the early patristic literature. Let's assume for that, let's assume that for a second, what about the Holy Spirit, the Trinity cannot be complete, cannot be complete without the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the third
person. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no complete origin, one of the most learned men in the third century. He was, in fact, according to some people alive at the time that he was the man of the church. You know, he was the most learned man alive. He is saying in the second, sorry, in the third century, that we don't know what the Holy Spirit is, we still haven't decided it is undecisive The matter is still not decided. We don't know what it can consist of, what is the importance of the Holy Spirit? We move on? In 380 jd Kelly in his very important book, the history of the early Christian doctrine, he tells us in 380, Gregory of Dred Gregory of nazianzus, in a sermon gave an
illuminating picture of the wide variety of views, which held the field on the Holy Spirit. By the way, some he reports consider Holy Spirit to be a force others a creature, others God, others making the vagueness of the Scripture, they're excused, declined to commit themselves of those who acknowledge his deity. Some keep it as a pious opinion to themselves. Others proclaim it openly and yet others seem to postulate three persons possessing data in different degrees. There you go. Three at 350 years apart from Jesus Christ, the Christians still don't know what the Holy Spirit is, generally speaking, there is no consensus among Christian learned Christians. I'm not talking about
the peasant in the field. I'm not talking about the butcher, or the hairdresser or the the Taylor, I'm talking about. churchmen. I'm talking about clergy, I'm talking about the
learned men, they still they still don't know what the Holy Spirit is. So how can Samuel stand here today and claim that the Holy Spirit is God with capital G it within the New Testament when the earliest authorities are not sure even in the fourth century as to what the Holy Spirit is. It's very baffling.
The creed of Nicea doesn't give that status to the Holy Spirit which
Samuel gave to the Holy Spirit. It simply mentioned the Holy Spirit. It talks about God the Father, God the Son, they are both equal, they are of the same essence. But and in the Holy Spirit at the end, if you see the last sentence and in the Holy Spirit, without explaining it was in the year 381, the Council of Constantinople when the Holy Spirit was finally added as the third person within the Trinity, by the three Kappa Darshan, fathers Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory of nazianzus, and basil of Syria. These are the three church coproduction fathers who added the Trinity or sorry, the Holy Spirit into
the creed of Nicea, which was, of course,
issued in 325. c. And then 50 years later, another council had to be held to add the third person into the Trinity.
And I don't have the time to read this quote. But
here, Basil Assyria, according to Stephen g Hall,
was actually not very sure about
your clock is running faster.
So basil, Assyria was not quite sure as to what the Holy Spirit is, according to other questions he was talking to he was conversing with. So
in the 19th century, john Henry Newman, you know, when he was defending his Catholic tradition, against attacks from Protestants, he made this point Thus, for instance, a person who denies the apostolic succession of the ministry, because it is not clearly taught in Scripture or I conceive if consistent to deny the divinity of the Holy Ghost, which is no way literally stated in Scripture, john Henry Newman, who was a who was an authority in the 19th century, in Britain on Catholicism, and final point, Bruce Metzger who died a believing Christian in his volume, the volume he edited the Oxford Companion to the Bible, he states because the Trinity is such an important part of later
Christian doctrine. It is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three co equal partners in the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the canon. Thank you so much for listening.
Okay, thank you very much. Now, this segment will be the 10 minute replies, we'll start with Samuel once again, he'll come forward and then we'll be at Nansel a call Samuel to come up here. Thank you very much.
Okay, thank you for that. And then I will try to get through a lot of those points are, I guess my response would, would be that he didn't spend a whole lot of time talking about the Islamic position. And some of the issues that I think come with tallied up it was mainly a critique of, of the Trinity, and that's okay. But I will try to respond to as many of those as I can. Now, first of all, say that when the Quran says, say, not three, and we read, what the Quran is talking about is talking about God, Mary, and Jesus, we see that in Surah, five, verse 73, to 75, where it's God, Mary and Jesus, and that's not the Christian understanding, though, I'm sure it probably wouldn't
have accepted the Father, Son, and spirit, either.
You're saying that Christians have had different understandings about the Trinity over centuries, and they debated this, but honestly, just because people debate points, and it takes a long time to work them out. It doesn't mean it's false. Many issues take a long time to sort out. And as I pointed out, in the early history of Islam, tel hate was debated. There is still no creed for tell heed, and so in different Muslim groups will have different understandings of what tel Hadees today. And in fact, when it comes to issues like God's sovereignty and free will, Muslims haven't sorted that out. I don't have a problem with that. I'm not being critical. I'm just saying that you can't
say are Christians, we're talking about
For hundreds of years, therefore it must be wrong, that that method of argument actually doesn't work. Now, you spoke about the Shema from Israel here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Christians believe that, that that's important to us. But to say that the Israelites therefore didn't have some concept of the Trinity, I think it's true because when you read their scriptures, they see the Holy Spirit, as as I pointed out in my talk, as all knowing as all present, as having the attributes of God. And so there is this God is transcendent and higher than the heavens, yet his spirit is fully divine, and amongst us, so the references I gave show that they did have some
understanding of that,
that are related to the Shema, you spoke about Jesus using are referring to the Shema in Mark chapter 12. And it's absolutely true a man comes to Jesus and says,
What do I, what are the greatest commands, and he says, The first is, here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one, Love the Lord your God with all your heart with all your soul and your mind and all your strength. And so it's true, if you look at that Jesus is saying, God is one. But notice what Jesus goes on to say next, because in the very next section, he says, wild, so he's just been talking to that man. And then the very next thing that happens is, while Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, someone asked him, How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the Son of David? Right? Jesus asks them, how can they the Christ be the son of David, the Messiah, the
Son of David, when David himself speaking by the Holy Spirit declares the Lord, that is, Yahweh said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your feet. Now, what Jesus is saying there is that here's David speaking by the Holy Spirit, and David is looking up to the Messiah who's at God's right hand. And he's saying, How can David call him his son, if David calls him his Lord? Now, it's it's not a an argument that you may have heard before. But it's basically Jesus saying that this the true Messiah is not a son of David, he's this one with God. And it's an important verse on the divinity of Jesus. And so Jesus says the Shema, here, O Israel, the Lord is one. And
then he moves on to say, and I am the divine Son. And so he brings the two together. So I guess my comment would be that with a number of the verses you referred to, if you read those verses in context, and just keep reading them, you often get the answer that you're after. Now, regarding john, chapter seven, verse three,
where you said, let me just quickly get to this, where Jesus says, Now this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
And Jesus here calls the Father, the only true God. Now, that is actually still Trinitarian. What would make that not Trinitarian would be if Jesus said, only the father is God, but that's not what he says. And that's, I think, pretty sure what what you said that only the father is the true God. That's not what Jesus says. He says, the father is the true God. We agree with that. And when you read the rest of John's Gospel, Jesus is one with the Father and shares in that godness, too, and that's why we have the doctrine of the Trinity. Now regarding our other Trinity's, you said, what about the father? What about the sun, the spirit and the angels? You said, Yeah, you can find other
Trinity's That is true. The difference there is, of course, that the angels are said to be created. And so they're not included in God, you could probably find a whole range of Trinity's, you know, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or something, you know, you could find other three names, but you've got to look at what the content of those names is and how it's being used. And in the case of the sun, so the quote from Luke
nine, verse 26, with the sun, the angels in the Father, the angels are said to be created, but the Spirit of God is said to be God's breath. That is, God doesn't create his breath, the spirit is of a one nature with God, and the sun is spoken of as the Word of God, or the glory of God, again, not created, but with God and of the same nature with God. Now, you asked for me to find you, one church father from the early centuries, who speaks about Jesus divinity. I don't know how specific you want to be on it being co equal, but it's certainly that they certainly do speak about him being God. And so I can give you some references here Polycarp in his letter to the Ephesians, chapter 12, verse
two, Ignatius, in these letters to the Ephesians. So Ignatius, let me just get some dates for these people a little hard to get all the information up here for you.
But I can assure you that they they so just get this Ignatius Polycarp. Who else is the mallotus, of Sardinia from 180 Polycarp. From the end of the first century, Ignatius from just Justin Martyr. So there are early church fathers which speak about Jesus as God, they call him the Lord and the garden. It's a bit hard for me to get all those immediately up here. But you could follow that up and just type into Google, early church fathers who speak about Jesus being God. And you could follow that up. It's a little hard for me to do all of that here.
Now, regarding the Trinitarian verse and Matthew, chapter 28, verse 19, where Jesus says, Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit, I need to say that there's no textual evidence for that verse not being original. In all the manuscripts, there's no evidence, the evidence that was put forward by Graham Stanton was that Jesus is going to the nation of Israel at first, and then at the end goes to the nations. And they're saying, well, and nn was saying, Well, Jesus just went to Israel. Well, first of all, he didn't just go to Israel. He didn't just go to Israel, there was a sequence of events that Jesus did. First, he
did his ministry in Israel, and then he sent them out. And so earlier in Matthew's Gospel, he sends His disciples to Israel. Later on, he says, Now the time has come to go out. That's not a contradiction. You can't use that as a basis for saying that verse isn't genuine. It's just not good methodology. liberal scholars do that. Don't get me wrong. liberal scholars on Christianity say that verse doesn't make sense to me, therefore it can't be original. That's how they work. Right? You need to understand how these liberal schools work.
But it's just not true. And I would afford also from reading the Quran, the Quran accepts that the Romans are Christian. The Karate accepts that the gospel went to people outside of Israel and accepts that it accepts that the ever Syrians are Christian. It never says Romans and ever citians you know, and all the people in Mohammed's like, you know, you shouldn't be Christian, because it was just for the Jews, because no, Jesus went there. And in a similar way, now, Mohammed is going to go there, and the Quran is going to go there. So I just don't see that. That one was going making its point. Now, in terms of the Council of Nicea, the Council of Nicea didn't speak, at length about
the Holy Spirit because it wasn't an issue at the time at one minute. And what we need to understand is that
the early church in the early church had similar questions that the early Muslims had, and that is the early church was engaging with the Greek philosophical world. And for both the early Christians and the early Muslims. They were dealing with Greek philosophy that had God as absolute oneness. And that meant, how do you understand God's Spirit? How do you understand God's attributes? And it wasn't just a question for Christians about the Spirit of God, but as a question from Muslims to as they interacted with Greek philosophy. I finished it. Thank you.
Number 10 minutes five man, please. Thank you.
Thank you for that. Samuel again. Start my time.
Ladies and gentlemen, Samuel had plenty of time to talk about the Trinity. Why is true? And he had time to address my points as well.
I'm afraid he didn't address most of my points. My point was not whether the Church Fathers mentioned Jesus God. I know they do. I've already acknowledged that. My question was, where do the Church Fathers say that he is equal to God the Father, this is the point. A lot of the Christians, when they talk about the Trinity, they think by substantiating the divinity of Jesus Christ, they have already proved the Trinity, which is a false assumption. In order to prove the doctrine of the Trinity to be true, you must show us why the father is God. There is no there's no disagreement on that. You must show us why Jesus is God and who said, who said it and when was it said, number two,
the number three, the Holy Spirit is also God, fully God equal with the Father and the Son. What you will not find with the Church Fathers for the first three centuries is a statement where one of them, including all the ones mentioned by Samuel, will one of them said, the son or the spirit or equal to God the Father, none I again, I will ask Samuel to come back. I know what Julian said about the Trinity. I know what I
When you said, I know what Origen said, I know what Justin said. I'm aware of their statements. And in fact, Christians today consider them to be heretics because they were subordination is, this is exactly why they are not Orthodox Christians. Amazingly, in the late fourth century, a doctrine was formed by the Christian church, when the Holy Spirit was finally added into the, the Trinity. And then the earlier generations were anachronistically, condemned by later Christians, for not believing in things what they did the things they believed in, for example, I preach a doctrine today, five centuries later, someone else comes along, preaches to the people, people accept that
doctrine, which is different to mine. Then those people start to condemn me that I was actually a heretic I was misguided. This is exactly what Christians do to their predecessors, the earliest generations they patristic authorities, people like Origen, people like to Tolkien, people, all of them are heretics. By the way, every single one of them is a heretic. And this is not an extreme statement, go and read your theology and literature you will see that current Christians, because according to the current conception of the doctrine of the Trinity, all three persons are co equal and co eternal. While the Church Fathers Origen, Irenaeus, Tertullian,
Justin Polycarp, Ignatius, all of them didn't believe that they believe the sun was below the father, he was a subordinate person or being to the Father. He may be God in some sense, but he is not equal to the Father because the father generated the son, Father, he beget the son, therefore the father is superior. This is very, very clearly stated in the writings of Iranian origin totally. So their word subordination is moving on to some of the points raised by Samuel, that the tawheed and the debates in the early history of Islam, show me one debate in the entire history of Islam, where they are debating the number of persons in Godhead, one debate, one discussion on that matter,
There was no misconception on the person of God. The Muslims from the day one to the day lost, have believed God is one person one being, there is no debate in the entire history of Islam on the person of God, whether he's one, two or three. No, that's that's a problem with Christian history, not in Muslim history. Yeah. The nature of God has been discussed no doubt in the sense that how does God work? What are his attributes? How does he manifest His attributes, names and attributes? In reality that discussion has taken place in the Muslim ministry note is to no doubt. But that's not what you are discussing in your history, you are discussing the persons of the Trinity, whether
the son is God or not. That's a huge question. That's a big question that can potentially make you a polytheist. If you get it wrong, you are doomed. You go to Hellfire for believing a false idea. If you are a polytheist, and I'm sure Christian will Christians will agree with me on that. If you are a polytheist, you will not be in Paradise, you will not have eternal life, you will not have salvation. You cannot possibly worship idols and
expect from God to forgive you and give you genma or paradise as we say it. Okay, so I'm going to go back to my presentation again.
Even in new Catholic Encyclopedia encyclopedia, this question is raised. There is the recognition on the part of aggregates and the biblical theologians, including a constantly growing number of Roman Catholics that one should not speak of trinitarianism in the New Testament, without serious qualification, there is also the closely parallel recognition on the part of historians of dogma and systematic theologians, that when one does speak of an unqualified trinitarianism, one has moved from the period of Christian origins to say, the last quadrant of the fourth century, it was only then that what might be called the definitive Trinitarian dogma, one God in three persons became
thoroughly assimilated into the Christian life. This is exactly what the reality is. This is what I'm saying this is not a Muslim thing. Muslims have not invented this idea of this notion of Trinitarian Trinitarian rhythm coming about in the fourth century. It is well acknowledged by Christian authorities, is just our friend some of our fundamentalist friends who are, you know, carrying Bibles in the hands and they are preaching to the masses on the streets. They are simply not aware of this history. They don't know what is in is in the books of theologians, they simply have no idea they are ignorant of their own history, unfortunately.
So how was the Trinity spread? Very quickly, I want to talk about this. This is how the Trinity was spread.
By the might of the Roman Empire, Constantine died, a Unitarian. He was baptized by an alien bishop on his deathbed, called Eusebius of nicomedia. Then, his son constantius came to power, who upheld the arion doctrine. arion is not important that the issue is, is Jesus God constantly has been believed that his brother constants on the other hand, his rival in the Empire believed otherwise he upheld the Nicene Creed, while constantius didn't follow that, when constantius died, the Empire was handed over to Theodosius and theodosian code was issued, and it was theodosian code.
That became the reason why Christians became trinitarians. Later on in the fourth century, the majority was still Unitarians in some shape, or form. Of course, they are different beliefs. Of course, they saw Jesus differently to how we see him today, or how Christians see him today. But they were not trinitarians, they did not believe in the equality of the Father and the Son. Up to the fourth century, the majority of Christians in the world were Unitarians in some shape or form.
So why are we left with this? What do we do now?
either. Samuel comes back here today and shows us clear cut evidence in the Bible, that Jesus was God. When we talked about the Gospel of Mark, chapter 1229.
What he didn't read was The next part where the Jewish man has been responded to by Jesus. And then Jesus goes on to say, worship dialogue with all thy mind white with all thy heart, with all thy soul, sorry. And then the Jewish man turns around and he says, Master, you have spoken the truth. There is no one else beside him. Again, the Jew is talking of the Father, he is not talking of the Trinity is talking of the Father, there is no one there is no one else beside him. Right? And then Jesus tells him, you are close to the kingdom of God. In other words, what you're saying it's true, it is correct. So, before we go further, how can you possibly worship a trinity with all thy mind,
with all thy heart with all thy soul? Let me give you one example.
The Christians today believe that Jesus has two natures Thank you. He has two natures, fully divine, fully God, fully human. Now imagine, if Jesus has two natures, coexisting within his body or within his being or his person, then,
fully God side must have fully God consciousness and rationality, we all agree, the fully human side has its own rationality, because it is the fully human side. Now, that would mean Jesus is actually not one person, he is two persons, because a rationality means a person, or rationality represents a person because the person who the person can we say, an insect is a person. Insects do not have that rationality. That's why we don't call them persons, right. But a person is someone who has an independent rationality, God is independently rational. So is the man then there are two persons not one person, how can you worship a doctrine like that? With all my mind with all my heart and all
die? So thank you so much.
We're gonna have five minute replies. And
now, can I have my slide up, please? my PowerPoint?
Here we go. All right. Thank you for that admin. Now, you spent a whole lot of time on the early church fathers.
In the end, that's beyond us to do here. We can have a debate on the early church fathers. I can show you references as I did that they accepted Jesus as God. That exact phrase, I'm not in a position to survey all early church fathers he to do that. Now, regarding origin and Tertullian. You said that they were declared heretics, but
you need to understand that this is because they had a platonic view of religion. And that was they said that religion was
they had a low view of
Revelation and it was the view of that all religions should be philosophically determined. And that's something that the churches and Islam has wrestled with over the centuries, the relationship between reason and Revelation. And so it's not true to just say they weren't discounted because of their view of the Trinity. It's, there are many issues, that's a big subject, you can have a debate on that, and we need to give that the
the time that would need.
Now you're saying that it was only in the fourth century that people started to see the Trinity as you know, as as the Trinity, honestly, Christians were praying to the Father, through the son by the spirit from the word go, that we're doing it all the time, when it comes to explaining the very heart of God. Well, yes, it took them a while to work that out. I make no apologies for that. Remember, we're talking about a revelation of the very character and heart and nature of God on the side of you. That is the biggest question in the history of the universe, something that we will go on and join God and who he is for all eternity. It's a big question, Christians from the beginning
of praying to the Father through the son by the Spirit, as they seek to understand what that looks like, and how do we explain it? And how to carefully articulate it? Yes, it took a while to do.
Now, the view wasn't enforced by an emperor. That's a misrepresenting? No, it's not that it wasn't there. And then this Emperor enforces it. The Emperor is went from one side to the other in much the same way in the early history of Islam. They were metabolite Caleb's and non Morteza, like Caleb's. And some impose their own view and others didn't. And so we have a similar thing with these Emperor's but you always had the devout Christian scholars who had been abused, and you've got your own Muslim
champions who in those early centuries stood up against the Morteza light, Caleb's and stuck to the to the revelation. Well, it's the same with us. They were emperors who had the power, but you had those who stuck to the Scripture. And in many ways, when you're trying to look at the early church fathers and concentrate on those, I didn't put that forward. In my presentation, I was just looking at what the Bible put forward, what the Torah, the Prophets, and the Psalms and the gospel site. And they are clear that God is not absolute oneness. They talk about God's spirit being breathed out from him, and being personal. It just does it all the way through the Scriptures. And you haven't,
haven't engaged with any of that which I put forward, haven't shown anything of mine, what I put forward is being false. And when I put when I spoke about the divine image of God, and how the divine image is given the full characteristics of God, and that in the Gospel, Jesus does all the things that only God does. Again, you haven't interacted with any of that. And so I'm saying that the scriptures are there. And you haven't really interacted with what I've put forward in my presentation where I've shown that the One God has oneness, and distinction, oneness and distinction, and that this distinction has to do with how he, how he interacts with these agents
into this world, there is the Holy Spirit of God, there is the divine image of God. And that's just who God is. That's just who God is.
How can we worship the Trinity? Well, it's easy you pray to God the Father through the son by the Spirit, it's all of God. Remember, I said that in my presentation that worshipping God in Christianity is all of God. We don't confess anyone, we're not asking you to be baptized into Paul's name. We're not asking you to, to acknowledge God and Paul, in the way that the Shahada has God and Muhammad, we're not asking you to do that. It's all God of what we confess, it's all God in the way that we pray initially.
Then five minutes, please.
Thank you so much, again.
the rationality of it, whether it makes sense or not, I'm not going to indulge in that, because the Christians themselves have declared Trinity to be a mystery.
And in the first book of Corinthians, chapter 14, verse 33, Paul himself has
God is not the author of confusion. If that's the case, then God hasn't done a good job. The Christians have been battling with the Trinity for centuries, and this is not the doing of Muslims. The first
conflict between the Trinity
Aryans are Banita Aryans and between the Unitarians had gone on for four centuries in the first four centuries, of course of Christian history. And then theodosian code
was responsible for forcing the doctrine of the Trinity down the throats of all the Christian citizens living within the Roman Empire. This is a historical fact not disputed by any historian. Okay. Roman emperors had adopted this view. And they enforced this view by force upon the masses. Now,
Samuel keeps bringing up the issue of Mozilla. Mozilla were never the majority, they were always minority. They were always minority. They were a very fringe small group, who caused a lot of trouble, no doubt, but they were a minority. I am talking about the majority Unitarians. They were the majority they followed the view of the Muslims follow. Jesus was not God. He was not God. He was simply a messenger of God. He was a prophet of God, he was a supreme agent of God, who was sent to put the record straight who was sent to the Israelites. This is why the doctrine of the Trinity came up with the Gentiles. It never came from the Jews. There were Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, who
continue to worship in the temple. Even in the book of Acts, we have references where the followers the early followers of Jesus Christ, are going to the temple imagine going to the temple and worshiping a trinity. There, we're going to kill each other over circumcision. The Book of Acts read it very carefully. They were going to kill each other over circumcision. They didn't tolerate difference on circumcision. How about
difference on the being of God, the persons of God? How about dividing God into three persons imagine what the Jews would do to such a person in the temple. The early followers of Jesus were worshiping in the temple, and they were not worshiping the Trinity. They were worshiping the same God the Jews were worshipping people like James, and other members of the Jerusalem Council. The Trinity came from the Gentiles.
And I agree with SAML, that origin Tertullian Irenaeus, Justin polycarb, Ignatius, these were all victims of philosophy, Greek philosophy, to be precise, the stoic version of Greek philosophy. The last theology which is to be found in the Gospel of john is actually a Greek philosophical, stoic idea. phylo, who was a contemporary of Jesus Christ was a Jewish philosopher, who had talked about the logos,
you know, the matter of logos. So here it is very clear that the Christians had adopted ideas that were alien to Jesus Christ, and his teachings.
And there are so many verses in the Bible that clearly show that Jesus was not God. In fact, one of the reasons why origin and Tertullian both of them, they did not believe that Jesus is equal to God the Father is because of the verse, the father is greater than I. And they both quoted this very verse in the writings. This is why Tertullian did not believe Jesus was equal to the Father. This is why origin did not believe that Jesus was equal to the Father because father is greater than AI. With regards to john 17, verse three,
Samuel came up with a strange interpretation of that verse because the verse is very clearly said, it doesn't say only in fact, the verse does say only in the Greek language, it says menos and listeners alone, alone solitarily uniquely, the true God, the Father, the Word Manas, see the translation of the word Manas. In the Greek language, you will see, this is exactly what the Greek says Manasa ality knows that God the Father is the only true God. If he is the only true God, then what happens to Jesus is he God, also, Jesus did not know the hour and it's not only only Jesus, even the Holy Spirit is my time up. Okay, thank you very much for listening. And during the q&a,
please do bring up these questions. If you if we missed out something if we didn't address something, please mention it in the q&a so that we can address it. Thank you very much.
We will have a q&a now.
This will be a q&a that's going to be open to everyone here. We'll try and cap at 25 minutes as suggested. After that, we'll have concluding statements. So
anyone wants to ask any questions?
Allahu Allah tala.
Thank you to both of you for an excellent presentation on both parts.
My question is to Adnan with regard to the concept of tawheed.
As I understand it within Islamic, Helen, within Islamic teaching, the stone is kissed
partly because it is believed that it will intercede for the believers on Judgement Day. One assumes that it can only receive that knowledge from Allah. Isn't that a compromise on Tao? Hayden shirk that Allah's attribute of knowledge is shared with an inanimate object.
I don't know if I understood your question correctly, you think kissing the stone is somehow
not aware of that particular teaching? What I do know is that we kiss the stone to obey the Prophet. So it is a form of obedience to the Prophet. And when we obey the Prophet, we get rewarded from God Almighty. So there is no
there is no loss in tawheed, the doctrine of tawheed stands firm, we believe we worship one God, and we are not worshiping the stone. We are not worshipping a man, we are not worshiping a tree, we simply worship one God. Now what does that worship content constitute that worship may constitute having a boss that worship may constitute smiling, that worship may constitute about bowing on the road, on the ground, putting your head on head on the ground, you are being rewarded by God Almighty, you're not worshiping the object. When I say the object, we don't when we have a bath, we don't worship the water, when we
that this stone will intercede. And my point is that if an inanimate object is going to intercede,
to receive its knowledge from Allah, which means right sharing his knowledge with an inanimate object.
Know, Allah sharing his knowledge with a stone with a tree, or with anything, if Allah, Allah wants to cause something to speak, as a miracle, that's a miracle. The worst? Or the least you can say is, that is it is a miracle. Okay. And we believe in the supernatural. You believe in the supernatural as a Christian Christians believe that if God wants to cause something to speak, it will speak. There are miracles of Jesus Christ in the in the New Testament. So if a stone speaks, then it's a miracle. As simple as that. How is a stone speaking? Stone? That stone becoming God? And it doesn't mean? Sorry.
Okay, good. We'll leave it as that because we're trying to cap at three minutes. Maximum per question. Any other questions? Please, for anyone here? Yes.
Hi, um, quick question with regards to Jesus, when he was a human being during his ministry. We know he did many things as a human, he ate as a human. He basically went to worship, he prayed to God as a human being. So when he was praying to God, like the other Jewish people, during this time, they also worship God, and they believed in God. So when Jesus was believing in God, when he said to Mary Magdalene, I go to my garden, your God, and also when he prays to God,
in the Garden of Gethsemane when he falls on his face, and he asked God to take the cup away from me. So all this worship of God and praying to God, how did he perceive God, Jesus Christ himself? Did he see God as a trinity? Or did he worship like the rest of the Jews, as a Unitarian God?
Or I would say, both, I would say our, the understanding is that
we are unable to save ourselves and God has come to us to to live the perfect human life to save us. And so Jesus lives, the full human life. And so he he's born, he learns he, he prays he eats, as you were pointing out.
When Jesus is doing that he is when he's praying, he is praying to God the Father, as as the son as the divine Son.
So what we have is that
the broader principle is that God's actions into this world are from the Father, through the son by the Spirit. And when God is acting from the Father, through the son by the Spirit in creating the sun is as the Word of God bringing life and the sun is life and that's how the father works through the sun as the word
God, in the Incarnation we have Jesus
as a man, God working through the son as a man. And so we have Jesus expressing his relationship to his father, as a man. So you agree that he worshiped only the Father. He did not worship a triune. God, know what I'm saying that he's worshipping he, as a man, he expresses his relationship to God the Father.
Only God the Father, his book, yes. And so he is praying to God the Father. Yes. So he's a unitary, sorry. So he's a Unitarian, he did not believe in a Triune God. So he did not worship the Holy Spirit, and the father and the sorry, the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit as a triune. God, in order to say that I'd have to say that Jesus denied his own divinity to acknowledge the father's divinity does not deny his own. Thank you.
Any other questions, please? Yes.
And this is question is for Adnan.
Yeah. Thank you. So you made I felt you made a big deal out of john 17. Three, you said that it had to be changed by certain Christian fathers
by Augustine, and I'm just wondering, in john, particularly when he starts off in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God. And we go down to verse 14, it talks about and he became flesh and walked among us. And that particular verse, you said in verse three, if you go down to verse five, it talks about the fact that glorify me with the glory I had with you before the world began. I mean, why would you ignore the context of those verses? No one in this room, no one passed, except for Jesus can say, glorify me with the glory I had before the world began. Yes, okay. We don't have a problem with that, that glory does not make him God. If he our glory, before the word was created,
that means God had glorified him before the word was created, created, that doesn't make him another person, or another deity, with God the Father, within Godhead. Because in verse three, it is very clearly stated that Jesus excludes himself from divinity.
Yeah, no problem God, when God gives glory to someone, that glory is with God. Right? It is it comes from God. So we have no problem with that is the problem with Christian friends is that they use unclear, ambiguous, vague verses to substantiate the Divinity divinity of Jesus Christ.
Yes, the glory of angels is there. I read it from the Gospel of Luke, the glory of angels of God's glory come from God and that makes Jesus divine that angels are also divine. I can read the verse in a minute. If you if you give me a second, my point is now, the reason why Jesus so many Christians have to rely on vague verses within the Scripture is because there's no clevers. If there was a clear verse in the New Testament, where Jesus said, I am God worship me. Jesus had the time. Jesus have the time. I know it's funny, but it's serious. It's serious. It's serious. Jesus had enough time to say that the Pharisees are adulterous hypocrites, lying generation, you know,
and vipers, he had the time to curse the tree, he had the time to have a dialogue with the Samaritan woman, he had plenty of time to say plenty of things. God the Father throughout the Bible is saying again and again 1000s of passages 1000s they run into 1000s, I am your God worship Me, I am your God, worship me. Here you are saying that Jesus is also God. Why couldn't just one sentence all he had to say was one I know of the passages I know all the passages of the New Testament, you might bring out on the divinity of Jesus Christ, not one of them is clear, not what if, if there was a clear passage, then there would be no debate in the second, the third and the fourth century on the
nature of Jesus Christ, whether he's God. Of course, there are passages in the New Testament, which may be interpreted in a different way. You could say you could say that Oh, because of this, Jesus is God there are there are influences. What you have to understand is, you have to infer from the verses in the New Testament, there is no clay, explicit verse on this matter, and more so on the Holy Spirit. There is nothing on the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit became God. And it took for centuries for Holy Spirit to be acknowledged, as God I read passages I mean, the Christians
two choices. They can blind follow they view on the Bible, or they view on the divinity of Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit, or they can listen to the theologians and the historians who are telling them, the Trinity simply did not exist in the first three centuries. It was carved in the fourth century in its current form. Thank you.
If the debate is on the treaty, I arrived late, so I'm not sure.
Yes, addressed to the gentleman, Sam. Sam knows Mr. Samuel.
No, Sam's sorry. Yeah. So the Bible?
Yes, yes, I arrived late. So if the debate is on the Trinity, I just want to stick to the Trinity. Because
the Bible, our Bible, is always interpreted and understood in a context. You know, if you take one scripture, one verse out of the Bible, you can disprove or prove anything. That's really what we are after we read the Bible in a context. Anyway. So and our Bible also talks about the shortcomings of all the heroes it puts in. And that's the honor the honor of the Bible. But what I want to say is this Trinity thing, how about this verse?
JOHN, Chapter 14, I don't know if
I mean, I never thought I never thought I misunderstood it, but maybe
you will explain to me It says, Philip said, Lord, show the father and will be content, Jesus replied, have I been with you for so long? And you have not known me, Philip? The person who has seen me has seen the Father? How can you say, show us the Father? Do you not believe that arming the Father, and the Father is in Me, the words that I say to you, I do not speak on my own. But the father residing in me, performs his miraculous deeds. Anyway, this is just one example. I'm aware of in response to it. Now, Jesus, which part are you using to substantiate the divinity of Jesus Christ? The first part where you said that Jesus said, if you see me you have seen the Father, that
part? Or the other part that Father is in me? And both, okay? The both of them don't work? Because then Jesus says to His disciples, in the same gospel that you are in me, and I'm in you, does that mean the disciples are all gods? No. Right? Right, same language, exactly the same language for disciples, you are in me, and I am in you, right? Number two, seeing Jesus is seeing God, what does that actually mean? Is he saying I am God? No.
Even in this sentence, even in this statement, if you contemplate and if you ponder upon it carefully, you will see, Jesus is saying, I am not God, because God is a separate entity, if you have seen me, you have seen God, if he is God, he would have said, I am God. You've seen God. Simple as that right? Time. Sorry. Yeah. So if if, if Jesus was God, he would have said, I am God, you've seen God, period.
Of course, because the father is saying it 1000s of times, Father has said it 1000s of times throughout the Scripture, I am your God worship Me, I am your God, I am your Savior, there is no one else beside me. There will be no one after me. There was no one before me, all of these things that we have been said by the father, if the Holy Spirit and the Son Jesus Christ, are both Gods as persons, then at least give us one statement, a clear statement. And having said that, it's not because I don't think is there. It's the church fathers, your your history of four centuries after Jesus Christ. It is the biggest evidence in my favor. The history that history tells you, the
Christians did not think so. They did not think so they believed in Jesus in different degrees. They believed in his divinity, even the Divinity didn't mean what it means to you today. Their divinity was a man of God, a prophet of God, an agent of God, a divine person, in the lesser sense, he was not actually God the Father, he was not like him. He wasn't he was divine in a lesser sense. Now, what does that mean? Again, Greek philosophy.
Got 10 more minutes of the
of the of the question on session. Who has got a question for Samuel?
This man here
you got 15911 for Samuel? Yes, the man in the back.
You very much Samuel, for your,
your, your your presentation. just had a question actually, throughout the debate, you've both been discussing the nature of God, right? Some of your points have been, you know, against Islam, from the perspective of, from what I understood to be attributes of God, not rather the nature of God. So if we're discussing the nature of God in the Trinity, can you explain if that nature that you believe today, and many of the Christians in here believe today is the same neat nature of God, that the early church fathers believed in? So my question is, you see how you believe that
in the Trinity, they are all co equal gods, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit? Did the Church Fathers conclusively say this is the case? Or was there a hierarchy system within that Trinity? Right. Okay, so lots of issues there. The
my understanding is that God is the Creator, and has an uncreated eternal nature, and that creation has a different nature. And there may be a letter of being with degrees of separation down in what's called the letter of being so you have God is totally uncreated and spiritual, and it goes down the ladder to spiritual and then it becomes increasingly physical, till it's just pure physical. And that that was the cosmology that many of the early people were working with something like that. Now, what were the early church fathers saying, they were very aware of this. And so one of the debates was about is Jesus Hama, booziest, or Hamas, Homer z. And this means is Jesus like nature to
God, or the same nature to God. And so they certainly were discussing that issue. And the reason they did that the Trinity one out in the end was because of the descriptions that we find in the New Testament where the Holy Spirit is spoken of as God's breath. And being God's breath, puts him not in the created category, but the uncreated category. And when Jesus is spoken of as the Word of God, it puts him in the uncreated category, and over and over in a relationship to the nature of God of being the same nature. Yeah, that's,
yeah, but but but you see, my issue with that is, it seems like the nature of God is being described through inference of verses from the Bible, through inference rather than clear, clear evidence that they are co equal, because that's a big thing. Someone being co equal with someone else in a Godhead is.
God and His word God in His glory, to describe Jesus as the glory of God is saying, he is of the same nature, it's a monotheistic statement, you know, just let me finish, to say Jesus is the Word of God is a monotheistic statement, because there is God and His Word. God's word is part of who God is, what he creates, is who God is, end. And it's of the same nature, God does not create his word, God doesn't create his word, and then his word creates the world. His Word is of the same nature to him. So speaking of Jesus has the word of God and the Holy Spirit as the breath of God, put those two,
put those two persons into the identity of God and of the same nature. So the verses of it, I mean, the verses are clear, it's not some vague verse that Christians are using. It's the very descriptions that are used of Jesus are describing you in terms of the same nature yet a distinction of persons. So I can say,
who has a question for? We've got possibly time for two more questions, but I'm going to make this quick because what, five more minutes? So one, one more question.
First, and then afterwards, we'll have a question for Samuel. So who's got a question for
give him the mic, please. Yeah.
This is, this is a mask to Mr. Adnan.
Based on the Quran, of my limited knowledge.
In 4361, it talks about the man of the hour Jesus.
It talks about in your commentaries, it says about he comes as a judge, and a ruler, if I'm correct, and adjust judge and a judge and a ruler. So that talks about attributes of Allah, if, as Muslims label your allies, God, so he's in that showing that Jesus
Having the same attributes of God, and it says he's coming to common church, all mankind.
So if I use the Quran that particular verse, how do you
see Allah attributes are not separate persons. This is what you have to understand if God is a judge, the judge God is not a separate person who is judging. It is the same God who is judging through other people, through Muslims, through Christians, through Jewish people, depending on the times you lived in, right. So God does not become another person as a judge. And then there is another entity sitting somewhere else in the heavens, who is sending the judge away as another person separate as a separate being, not being, I don't want to use the word being because the Christians don't understand it that way. The Christians believe that the that God is One being but
He manifests Himself in three persons. My question is, why can it not be four persons five persons, right? Imagine if someone was to come along and a couple of centuries down the line and said, No, I have found another person, another deity in the New Testament, these Christians are all wrong. What is stopping him, he can turn on the order a second you can believe in three I can be even for what's the problem. This is where the problem is that God cannot be divided. His person cannot be divided is one being one entity, one person. Right? Now the Israelites worshipped him. This is how Jesus Christ worshipped him and Jesus. This is exactly how Mohammed worshipped him. Muhammad peace be upon
him did not break away from the biblical tradition. Rather, he reaffirmed that he revived it after the Christians had corrupted it. After five to six centuries of debating Christians are still debating in the sixth century when Mohammed was born, the Christians are still having debates as to who Jesus is. The Council of chance Chelsea dawn, when it was determined that he has two natures, before it took Christians five centuries to determine that Jesus had two natures. Can you imagine that? What games is God playing? The question is Yeah.
Sorry. Because the time is running a bit short. We'll have one last question, which will be to Samuel who's got a question for Samuel, Greenpeace at the back the man who is very, very excited.
Under the law, finally, well, I was gonna have MMA match with my manager, if he didn't pick me. And I've a question to Mr. Green.
Star, Adnan Rashid said that the Father is very clear, the father's got nobody disputes that, for the past few 1000 years, we've been going back and forth, is Jesus God or not? The Holy Spirit's not even in the picture. So the question I want to ask is, if all three divine beings are equal, then why isn't much emphasis given on the Holy Spirit? I mean,
you're never taught to pray directly to the Holy Spirit, since that's the case, also related to what Moses said as well, the question that he asked you, which I do not believe you answered it fully. And I would appreciate if you can answer this question. Why did the early church have difficulty with the definite divinity of the Holy Spirit? Why is the Holy Spirit never in the picture? If you can, please answer that question directly, I really appreciate you really want me to talk about the Holy Spirit. And why the Holy Spirit Why is, you know in the picture, and why did the early church fathers not to ask us to pray directly to him? It's because because God is Trinity. As I pointed
out, in my talk,
we have a transcendent God, who has who is his own agent into creation. So it's not that God has to rely on angels or anyone else, he can be his own agent into creation. And we see his two agencies are the divine image in the Holy Spirit, now the Holy Spirit. And so in any action of God, we see that it's from the Father, through the son by the Spirit. And so when it's on the cross, it's the the father who sends the Son to die, and the son is offered up by the Spirit. And so each of the persons are always involved in any act of God, whatever God does, he does from the Father through the son by the Spirit, but they have different roles within them. And so the unique role of the Holy
Spirit is as the one who inspires the prophets. And
he's the reveal he takes from the Father, and reveals to us and so it's the spirit in particularly, in particular, who inspires the prophets, okay, it's the Holy Spirit. And so the Holy Spirit's role is, is what we see in in the why the agents work out that God is calling us to worship to call upon God as our Father through the son by the Spirit. And so the ultimate goal is for us to be at a call God Father. So it's sort of a practical thing. It's not just philosophical. It's not a it's not a it's not a philosophical answer. It's a practical answer that
Jesus came, so that you can call God Father by the power of the Holy Spirit. So all of God's involved, but God is involved in that the Father and Son and Spirit are involved in different ways. Which of the early church fathers understood it the way you just understood it now? What you just said now?
It's just another question. I'm sure he's got 30 seconds. No, I'm gonna have to, we'll have to cut you off. But
the time has run out is 25 minutes of questions.
Yes, now we're gonna have four minute concluding statements. We're going to start with, we're gonna start with the seven. And then we'll have
Thank you very much.
All right, thank you for coming tonight and being part of this event. And I'll be hanging around over here. If you want to come and talk to me later on. It is important that we think about the things of God. And I do want to say that when we come to Trinity and Tao hood, we are asking questions about the character and nature of God. And it is a big subject.
And we shouldn't just expect it to be simple. And if you just say, give me a simple answer like that, I want to say we're talking about the very character and nature of God. Would you say that for thermodynamics? Would you say that for quantum physics? What do you say when it comes to the character and nature of God? what I've tried to do tonight is to outline for you, in my first point, the big picture of the prophets of the Torah, prophets, Psalms and gospel, and I showed how the prophets before Jesus clearly show that God has both oneness, yet also distinction, oneness and distinction, that they there's the distinction of the Holy Spirit and the divine image of God, and
that the prophets before Jesus, all speak about the Father, Son, spirit relationship, that's not invented by Christianity. It's the message of all of the prophets that comes to its fulfillment in Jesus, and are shown in the Gospel, how Jesus goes around, he doesn't go around saying, I am God, I am God. He goes around saying, I'm the divine Son of God, did you ask the wrong question, you won't get the right answer. He goes around showing that he is the divine Son in what he does, and in what he says, and he does say, on the divine Son, and demonstrates his divinity. As I pointed out, during the things that God does, I then pointed out that the Quran does not describe God as tallied, in
that if Tao hood is understood as absolute oneness, and that oneness is an adequate way of describing God. Because in the Quran, Allah is described with a whole range of diversity and distinctions. It's not a description of Tao hood, we saw that the Spirit is God's breath, which again, is a distinction that God, Allah pours out and breathes out into people to give them life. That's a distinction. It's not absolute oneness. It's not a towel, hood. And then we saw that Jesus creates as God creates in precisely the same way that God does. And so you can't have talent of attributes where Jesus is doing precisely what God does. And the thing he is doing is what actually
defines God as God. And so my contention is that the Quran does not describe God. In terms of childhood. We looked at Calhoun have we looked at Calvin, Trinity and reason and saw that, in the early centuries of Islam, there were discussions, and I didn't get a chance to put these quotes up. But there were discussions and arguments as to how you understand how he'd and as far as I know, there's still not a creed foretell hate because Muslims have different views on it. And the answer that came to explain it was below kafer. Without asking how, I don't have a problem with that, in a sense, just don't be critical of the Trinity. If your answer is without asking how. Finally I showed
that three can be one, because personally existence even within our own experience is more complex. None of us is a singularity. We have God dwelling in us their spirit position, how does God exist outside of three dimensional time and space? Well, three can be one. And finally we looked at Trinity and worship and saw that Trinity leads to confessing God alone, praying to God alone and tell he doesn't. And to finally finish up, I want to say, if you want to experience the Father, Son, and spirit, then please read a gospel account rated that the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or john, one of the Gospels that were written by the followers of Jesus, and you can see the
Father, Son and Spirit as they work to do was they work together to save us? Thank you very much.
have none four minutes please.
Not described God as though heat is a very erroneous statement to say the least. The Quran clearly states, Allahu, Allahu wa.
Your God is one God, toward tawheed comes to the root word wahaca. Another verse in the Quran clearly states, all who Allahu Ahad, say or Muhammad, that God is one. This is exactly how Quran defines goddess. One, though hate, to hate means oneness. And God is defined clearly in the Quran as one. So there is a mistake there, there is an error on the part of Samuel. With regards to the Bible, the Bible also defines God as one.
It is one of those fascinating things. I mean, I I have been amazed a number of times when I read the Bible, and, and, and see how the Christians have come up with the Trinity. It is unbelievable. And the reason why the Christians believe in the Trinity today is because they are not simply they're not aware of the history. And when in the 18th century, some of the Enlightenment figures, they read the history thoroughly. What happened, they went back to the original view, the original view of God, which was unitarianism, some of the most learned men in
Christian Europe, they abandoned the doctrine of the Trinity. There were three outcomes, by the way. One was, they became atheist outrightly, they couldn't make sense of the Trinity. They became atheist. Number two, they became DS, they abandoned they believe they believe in organized religion. And the third outcome was they became Unitarians. Who are we talking about? I'm talking about people like john Locke. I'm talking about people like William Weston, I'm talking about people like Isaac Newton, I'm talking about people like Thomas Jefferson, I'm talking about people like
they were Samuel Clark, who was a philosopher par excellence in the early 18th century, wrote a book in 1712, if I'm not mistaken, titled, The scripture doctrine of the Trinity in this book, he proved how the Trinity cannot be read into the Bible. So it was a doctrine formed in the fourth century. And then the Christians started to read it into the Bible. Likewise, as a Muslim, I can if I want to read a trinity into the Quran, do you want to see a demonstration of that? Right? There is a verse in the Quran, for example,
I was a bit ly measured on the regime. Yeah, even Lavina mano a to LA to Rasulullah marimon come over you believe, obey Allah obey His Messenger and those who are in power. This is again a triad in the Quran, Allah, His Messenger, and those who are in power, if I want to argue that ontologically they are exactly the same, therefore there is a trinity in the Quran. And now we worship God, Muhammad, the messenger and those who are in power, we bow to them because they are three different entities. I can read a trinity into the Quran, that Trinity was never read by the disciples, never read by the church fathers. It was only read into the Bible in the fourth century conclusively. And
lo and behold, we have Christian churches around the world, professing belief in it, because in the fourth century, coproduction fathers came up with it, and the rest of the Christian world was forced into it by the Roman Imperial might, and we have trinitarianism today. Let's go back to the original view. The original view is God is one he alone deserves to be worshipped. And he is not a man. He is not a spirit, rather, he is unknown to us. And we know He created us we need to go back to him, like other biblical scholars did, like Jesus did. And like Muhammad. Thank you so much for listening with salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa.
Thank you for attending. So all those who did come and attend, like Samuel Greene said, if you do want to ask any of the speakers questions, there will be around.
And obviously tomorrow, there is the final debate. So make sure you come seven o'clock, isn't it? It will be seven o'clock here will be here in the church, seven o'clock tomorrow. You can attend that for free. Thank you.