Channel: Umm Jamaal ud-Din
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Assalamualaikum Welcome to Season Two of the Nakai diaries podcast, a platform dedicated to sharing the stories of the woman behind the veil. This season we will be speaking to more Muslim women from all walks of life as we continue to discuss their deep and intimate reasons for wearing the niqab than a hobby diaries, our experiences, our perspectives, our voices. I'm your host, Seema, and thank you for listening. Please don't forget to like, share and subscribe.
Ismaila hamdu lillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah opposes do salaam peace and blessings be upon the messenger of allah sallallahu alayhi wa sallam Assalamu alaikum everybody listening while you're listening to the Nakata diaries, you might be watching it as well. This is the special Episode Episode 100 Alhamdulillah it's our second season. And yeah, we finally come to our 100th episode and today we have an extremely special guest that was Mubarak we have share her with jamaludin from Australia with us from de la. So she is a reverts to Islam have been studying in Saudi Arabia and she has a jazz and in touch leads from her teacher could EMA crossover, so naturally I'm going to do
so yeah, hamdulillah and I'm more than 10 years old jamaludin has been studying with various various religious texts from Arabic speaking scholars in the open Islamic Academy of Saudi Arabia. I'm sorry, I'm sure I'm not gonna mess up her bio anymore. I'll let her talk about herself. So he says that inshallah if you can introduce separate our listeners
shall obviously now hamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala Rasulillah wala Le he was so happy when the new Allah barkcloth Leakey Samadhi for this opportunity, I'm very honored to be your 100th
you know, you tried to touch base with me before in Panama nothing's ever worked out but finally got to
the 100th episode 100 and I'm happy for that to be honest, it would work awaits well worth it on me and I hope so Insha Allah, may Allah make it blessed in sha Allah.
Yeah, so basically, I'm basically a Quran and surely a science teacher here in Sydney. I've been
you know, teaching this at our cottage here for about
14 years now and 100 now but besides that, I've just always been very active in the Dallas scene here in Australia for at least 20 years. Alhamdulillah and you know, a few years ago, I moved into the
international scene. So that was Yeah, but before that, I was just really focused more in my own community.
So yeah, obviously your rebirth so if you could, you know insha Allah give us some of your reverse story that will be most beneficial for us in sha Allah Allah because everybody loves to read that story. Yeah, I won't go too much into it because I actually do have some other recordings of of myself like they you can go to my YouTube channel I have a lot of different recordings on there about my journey and stuff like that but I did handler find Islam as a teenager so a handle on me Fabio later Allah I you know, I
first read the Quran in English and that was what basically you know, Hamdulillah I you know, I as soon as I read it, I the message into my heart and I basically believed in Islam although I never I had no idea how to be a Muslim I didn't know that you could actually be a Muslim if you're Australian. I had no clue I've never met a convert I've never heard of anyone convince slam. So it took me about another four years until I went to university and then met some Muslims who would actually tell me more about Islam that's in a nutshell but as I said, if you want to go to find out more it's you know, you can check out my YouTube channel on demand a dean and I've got a lot of
recordings on there, you know about how I converted and
and all that inshallah we'll definitely put the link in the bio inshallah Yeah, I've heard some of those videos not allowing robotic. So is this the Could you tell us about your journey to the hub itself, but what I what stage of your, you know, of being a Muslim, did you decide to wear the niqab and what actually, you know, cause you to wear it? Yep. Look so SubhanAllah.
I will hamdulillah as I said, embraced Islam when I was still a teenager. And after I embraced Islam, I made a deadline for myself that when I turn you know, a certain age, I'm going to start praying my my five prayers. And then after I started doing that, it was just a few months later when I put on the hijab
Right now, after I got married to my husband, which was just a couple of years later,
and I had my first son, he was
only nine months old actually.
That's when I first put on the Nepal. And I was that's so the Hamdulillah. I've been wearing the niqab now for actually.
It's been about 28 years actually, I'm alone. And I put on Australia at the time. Yeah, I was living in Australia.
It was actually in Ramadan. When I put it on.
I'll just go back a bit. How I came to put them on top, like, I'll be honest with you.
After I became Muslim, and I was wearing hijab, I actually the impression I got of niqab I thought it was just like, people were exaggerating, but I didn't see many sisters wearing niqab like you wouldn't have back in those days. You didn't see how the anyone wearing niqab? Right. But the ones that I did me, I felt like they were just going too much in their Deen.
And so I wasn't really I was actually quite against them. And I remember telling them like, I had a friend of good friend, she used to have been a public assistant, older sister a little bit and I remember telling her you know, like, I'm never gonna within a pub, you know.
I used to argue and say it's not really from Islam, and, you know,
you revert, Revert, okay, so I was like, yeah, it's not from your SNAM. You just, you know, you're like, You're exaggerating or something, right. But then what happened was,
I used to attend to halacha. And then one time one brother came, and he, he decided to speak about the niqab to the sisters, you know, and he basically just came and gave us like, a background about the niqab. And, you know, he was mentioning how, like, you know, the AI in particular suit, allow them, right, verse 59, which I'm sure most sisters who are here who are the woman or cardboard familiar, you know, we all know that a like, you know, a little toddler says, but I would be laying the shaitana regime. Yeah, you can be you fully as virginica for the Antarctica, when he said in me, Nina, you'd Nina la hinami Angela DB him, right?
A lot of Dallas says to the Prophet sallallahu sallam, say or Oh Prophet, say to your wives and to your daughters, and the believing women to you know, draw their gelardi pin, you know, over themselves, right. So they may be known and recognized as women have the ability, you know, an honor. Right, and that no one would harm them. So, when he mentioned about this AI, you know, how when this came down, how, you know, Almohads and what meaning like the wives of the prophets of Allah had said, you know, began to wear the niqab and, you know, as a hobby yet used to wear the niqab also.
And that really impacted on me. And also, he started telling us a little bit about the historical background of niqab in Muslim countries, like you know, how that historically, you know, in Egypt, Algeria, a lot of those, many of the Muslim countries, I'm not even talking about Saudi here, I'm talking about just the other Muslim countries how it was normal, like niqab was something normal, like I remember speaking, my husband's from Egypt, and you know, he was telling me how his grandmother used to wear the niqab like it was something really, really normal. And then when they, you know, when they basically got, you know, colonized and all that, you know, a lot of, you know,
that they, they changed, you know, it's then became changed, and a lot of the women, they just abandon the niqab and, you know, trends changed. So I kind of feel, I kind of like, felt that
I felt very angry about that, like fact that, you know, that, that had this, you know, this has been imposed upon them, you know, I'm trying to say, and also
the, and I just felt like, like, I wanted to go back to, you know, to basically the roots of Al Islam, you know, like that this is really the original like that they used to wear this and like, obviously, there are role models. So I wanted to, you know, emulate them, but I have to be honest, when I first put the niqab on, I did really believe it was fun as well, like the way it was explained to me. I did really feel it was formed at that time. So I did that also thinking that this was, you know, like something I should do.
But anyway, besides that, I did feel that for me, you know, wearing hijab alone, even though even though I work properly, I did wear the hijab properly. I just felt like it wasn't enough. Like, I felt like, um, you know, when I was walking down the street, I feel like men was still looking at my face. And I also did like the fact that you know, not God gives you extra control. Like it's, it's giving you that extra control
over who can see you, you know, so I mean, that's really that was my that was my real motivation.
Do you want to wear the niqab initially, and, like, I'll just mention to that, you know, when I first want to wear it, like I'm about going home and you know, telling my husband
how I wanted to wear it, and like, he wasn't really like, he just said to me that when we go overseas, you know, you can wear it because overseas, it's really normal. But he goes like in Australia, you're going to find it hard. And you know, and I said, Look, I really want to wear this, like, I really feel like this is what the you know, the wives used to, you know, they used to dress like that, that this was the hobby yet and you know, because you know how it is like for a lot of reverts to we just really wants to, like we come into Islam and we really love it and we just want to really do our best in Islam. So I think that, you know, it's like when I knew that that was their
that was their you know, that was how they used to you know, that was part of I can say that was a dress that was their their way and not you know, you want to try to be like them as much as possible. Right? So I just when I showed him how much I really was my heart was set on it then he didn't want to stand in my way you know, he just said look, you know you do whatever you you know feel is good for you inshallah.
So that was that was how I first started to wear the niqab and like I did I did it in Ramadan feeling like in Ramadan things are easy to do.
But it is Mashallah. So probably you mentioned so many things there that I'm just like, you know, thinking
you know, like, it's just especially the idea in the Quran because
and, you know, by the Islamic history, you know, different Muslim countries have women sisters wearing the niqab and it being the norm. And it's just to show over, like, it's not even that long a period of time, but people's views have completely changed now. So that some Yeah, like yoga and people even see the niqab as being extreme? Yes, a lot. And like, I remember actually being in a class with
Mr. Mohamed, Tim. And he was saying that in Egypt, they had to be I can't remember exactly which year it was, but there had been a teacher who came was teaching as you know, class of girls, which she'd come into the class one day without her niqab.
And after that, because, you know, obviously, because, you know, there's different opinions, whether they're called is a big or not, okay. So, basically, after she came into the class, without her enough of that, and that was like, the first time it had been done, you know, in that, that lesson that with these girls, but then after that the girls, they started to, like, reveal other parts of their body, because for them, it was like, well, you're showing your face. So why can't I share my arm or my leg? Or, you know, so they started from then they started to wear, like a lot of their modern dresses, and also in the in Algeria as well, when the French had imposed them, you know,
forced unveiling of the women. Yeah, yeah, in the colonial time, like, you know, colonialism and stuff like that. But it's upon less like, now when you this sisters, for example, they make comments, and they will say things like, Oh, well, you know, the niqab is something that men have imposed on sisters, but it's just like, well actually know, that they completely flipped the wrong way around is the uncovering that was imposed on women, and now women have accepted that and embrace that as being Oh, well, I'm beautiful. So therefore, I should show my beauty and everybody should see me. Yeah, no, sorry. It's been completely flipped the opposite way. I'm alive. And it just goes
to show how, you know, without knowledge, people's views can be like, completely changed upon a lot. So can I ask you like, obviously, your Caucasian white Muslim, when you even became Muslim started to wear the hijab? Like how do your family kind of react to that? How, what was their kind of
reaction? Like was they Okay, and obviously, when you started wearing the niqab? Would they think about that as well? Yes. So look,
my parents were very upset with maybe becoming Muslim, because my father is actually a lay preacher. And so as my, so it's my mother's father. So I'm very, you know, it's basically a practicing Christian home and me. So. Yeah, so they really did not take well to the fact that I had embraced Islam. That was the worst thing. But within a pub, I actually kept it hidden. My husband and I knew we wanted to go to Saudi Arabia, like we were planning to travel.
And I had put in a call about Pabon about, I think, like I'd put on the cover and about,
like, let's say half a year before you're planning to go,
but I hadn't told them like I just because, you know, back in those times, I had my little my little son, I was mainly just at home, they normally would come visit me and then every now and again, rarely would go to their house, you know, so when I'd go you don't need to wear the niqab inside the house. But then what happened was just before about we were about to leave, like just within about a week before her about to leave. My sister's fiance came over. And so I had to basically tell them on
I have to go sit in the other room. Yes, I gotta because because I'm gonna have to tell you I'm covering my face now and
and that was really like they did not take well to that at all like they're just like what on earth? She's going into Saudi Arabia and she's wearing the niqab and what's gonna happen to her now, you know, like, and, like, a lot of people probably don't know this movie, but there was this movie called Not Without My Daughter, okay. It's a really old movie, but it's about this man who he gets married in Iranian man, he gets married to this American and then they go off to Iran, and then, you know, they get divorced, or something. And then she wants to leave, but she can't because her daughter's, you know, stuck in Iran. And they had all these ideas that
my husband, you know what I mean? Like that. We're just very worried, you know,
we're gonna call it was just like the final straw.
Yeah, so it wasn't easy back, you know, then but like, I didn't, I lived in Saudi Arabia for a couple of years. And they had some time to sort of, you know, just adjust a bit.
So that's, that's basically how, that's how I sort of started out with a no call anyway. So would you say that?
You think I like, for me, personally, I think like, when I had similar backgrounds, and my family's also like, you know, their priests and preachers and evangelists and all this things. Okay. So it was the same kind of thing. Like, when I became Muslim is like, the worst thing you could do, basically.
But like, I found that as time has gone on, they've kind of accepted it. Cuz I think in the beginning, they just thought that it was a phase and I want to, like marry some, you know, out of guy or something, you know, in their minds. That's how they kind of saw my conversion they believe, because of a man. Yeah. Which convert? It was not the case. I know. Some people go on like that. But that was it, Mike? Yeah.
So, you know, like our overtime now when obviously, it's like, nearly 20 years later. So they've seen that actually, well, it's not a face. So they've accepted it more. Yeah, still some little things here and there sometimes, but you know, they they respect that. Yeah, this is how I live. So they can understand, like, you know, it's not one of these kind of, you know, nightmare stories that people hear about and things like that. So I have a similar experience. Now, I've obviously been a Muslim quite a long time wearing it for 28 years as well. So I love the niqab. So, yeah. Paola, like, you know, um, look, definitely, you've, we've learned to respect each other's boundaries, I'd
say that as much as possible. Like, it's about learning how to respect each other's boundaries.
But I don't say that it's, I don't say it's ever 100% Easy, because, you know, it's just like, because when your parents are, you know, quite religious, yeah.
It's gonna always be hard for them, you know, and, you know, you've got your family and your family also is practicing. And,
you know, so there's just, it's, it's just, yeah, it's just a sore point, it's going to always be a sore point there. You know, definitely. I agree. Like, I think, I think that's one thing with them.
You know, so like, what you, like you said, with practicing families, practicing Christian families that are different, I think, is, you know, people who become become Muslim, and they don't have like, families who are like, so religious, it's kind of it might be a bit difficult in the beginning, but there's nothing really kind of that, you know, kind of something again, going against that, I mean, because when you're coming from practice and family, they're just gonna see that everything they've taught you, you've just kind of like
you know, it's kind of like there's also a bit of nationalism in there as well because like, we're Australian, all our family had been Australian, you know, and, you know, throughout the, throughout the
generations, and now you want to like just be a Muslim who's sort of like thrown away you're they especially originally they felt like being a Muslim was throwing away your being Australian you know what I'm trying to say? So it was a bit of that in there as well I think.
Yeah, sure. Kamikaze because often they think that you're you know, just going to change your whole culture basically, you just become like Adeboye Asian or something.
That was becoming art I thought that see it becomes really Arabic and you know.
So, how was your you know, I've taken I've been traveling like to different countries. You said you've been to Saudi Arabia. Have you been to countries within a carbon? What's your kind of experiences been while traveling within a carb? Has it like yeah, have any kind of it has been positive in general or have you had any incidents that you can share?
Look, I I've traveled to quite a few countries, anything I've been to Egypt, I've been to Philippines. I've been to Malaysia. I've been to like Dubai and Qatar and those countries that besides Saudi.
I've never really had a problem. I feel you
I've always you know, there's usually ladies available to you know, identify yourself.
So yeah, I can't actually remember having any real issues to be honest going through airports, or the airports I've gone through there been, but I did find that, you know,
I have sometimes felt quite intimidated at times coming through the Australian airport. Like, I'll be honest, it's not like I feel like other countries are friendlier. I feel like sometimes there's been times I'm for these strange airport, I felt like the very intimidating the way that they just, it's, you have to experience to know I'm talking about it's just coming into the Australian airport as an international, you know, someone arriving from an international flight. I just feel like they are quite intimidating in Australian airport compared to like, when you go through other national, you know, other countries, they just seem a lot friendlier. I don't know. I just felt like yeah,
that's just something I've noticed.
I've been in Australia actually, I've been home. Yeah. My mom was living in New Zealand. So right when we went through Australia, so I did go through there twice, and I'll have the link but you think wasn't too bad?
For Sydney, or whether you go through Sydney Airport? Yes, it will. Sydney. Yeah. Okay, so you found that okay. Yeah, it was it was fine. Many years ago, though. It was it was in 2016. Oh, there wasn't too far. That wasn't I think that yeah, there might have been might come down a bit now.
Time I felt intimidating it but maybe they've gone better now. I mean, I just what I noticed is that
like seeing everybody in Australia is like a giant
mess. I could understand like if some people have been intimidated because of the size of actual security and like people at the check ins because like, yeah, it's just
the way that the whole setup with the you know, when you first come in through border control, and it just looks like very, very intimidating. But surprisingly, I found it like positive like when I was there. It was I mean, I identify myself, but they made sure that they brought a lady to identified me so yeah, they do. Yeah. Which is about a bathroom. But they did it. I wasn't expecting them to To be honest, because I know that some apples just don't care about that. But something that they did. So yeah, I know that there's a lot of there's a lot of ladies who were not communists, like especially in Sydney, it's sort of quite familiar with it. So I think that really helps as
Yeah, I'm doing that. So have you ever experienced a beach or when the niqab in Australia or anywhere else? Yeah, look calm.
Again, I haven't really I have to be honest, I haven't really had really major problems. I remember this funny story. Once I was with my husband, we were at a shopping center. This is years ago, and I first put the niqab on and back in those times. You hardly saw anyone within a club, like it was the rarest thing to see. Right. But remember this lady she was
it's funny, because a lot of people who abuse you actually migrants to Australia, like
anyway, and she started going off at my husband, actually, she was abusing my husband and saying, How could you do to your wife, you know, you're cruel. You're You're oppressive, like, you know, she was. And she actually called him some names, which I won't repeat, but like some swear words, right? But she thought he was like doing that to me. And so then I just turn around to go, I just turned around to her. I go, excuse me, but I begged my husband to let me wear this. And then she was like, she just didn't know what to say. She's just like, staring because like I mentioned, that was the accent coming out from behind the niqab. And then like, you're telling her that you actually asked,
you know, you actually were the one trying to get convince your husband to like, you know, to, to be happy with you wearing it, you know, not the other way around.
And then, you know,
what I noticed in Australia is, there's been some change in the way people
sort of respect others, like, you know, in the past, they're a lot more respectful. I felt like that. If they didn't like you, they wouldn't say it, you know, they would just sort of keep themselves but then some of focus on phobia became a big thing a few years ago, although it's calmed down a lot. Now. I think that they've really tried to calm it down because they realize you've got out of control. Yeah. Especially after that terrorist attack in New Zealand's which was an Australian who did that, you know, so I think they realized that Australian media was just getting way too out of control with their, the way that they were,
you know, the way that they were, you know, the hype about them. But yeah, so before that, people were becoming really, really disrespectful. Like, they'll just say things outright, and I wouldn't care about your feelings anymore. So like, I remember going to the specialist once and, you know, she decided to tell me like, I've got I'm going for an appointment. It's got nothing to do with anything. And then she just did to me when I was going out. You know, I find you wearing a face feels very confronting. Wow. And I said to her well, I said, You know what I said, I'm probably the last person that you should speak to about wearing in a poverty because I absolutely love my face
veil. And I said, I've been wearing it for so long as it's absolutely part of me and I said, I feel like
Just like a little, you know, like an oyster and a shell that just looks out on the world, you know.
And I said, I love that. I love that, you know.
So like, she just, she just couldn't say anything, you know, she'd really barked up the wrong tree. Wow, they come to me about it, just trying to weaken me, you know, just trying to have a, you know, attack me and sort of weaken me in wanting to wear it, basically. So that's probably some of the main things I mean, obviously going to get sometimes silly people that just want drive past and that, I mean, they could do that when you wear hijab, too. But my, my view on it is whether you're in a car wearing hijab, whatever, like, I mean,
if you're going to be racist, or they're going to be a sinner foams that can happen to you, even if you're, you know, whatever you're wearing. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah.
share, how could you tell us? How did you come about, like going into the Islamic Studies? And like, what point did you start learning about Islam, like properly, like intensely, like you've been doing? And what advice would you give to other sisters who kind of want to embark on that journey as well?
Like, this is, again, a really long story. And again, I can just yeah, I'll just have to summarize it because it's really long, like I like as soon as I got into Islam, I can tell you that I just straight away like, look like my father.
I come from and, like, how can I say, I come from a very pro education family, right? My father has numerous degrees, he has, like, at least I don't know, five different degrees. And so reading in education was something really big in my home, you know, and
so I had a love for knowledge, you know, it's, you know, it's basically nurtured our love for knowledge, but Alhamdulillah in my case, it worked out perfect because my love knowledge became my love for knowledge for Islam, right. So as soon as I basically embraced Islam, I was always right in there just reading straight away trying to learn Arabic straight away trying to learn memorize Quran straight away like that was I got straight into it. And I mean, even the reason I wanted to marry an Arabic speaking husband was so that I could, you know, get into Arabic and stuff like that. So, and then, you know, as soon as I got married my husband, I had that plan to go to Saudi Arabia, so I
could study so like, it's, it's been a lot a lifelong journey, I can tell you right now, and I have never given up on my dream. And you know, hamdullah recently, I just graduated with a BA in soccer and all sorts of stuff. But like I, you know, I've gone through, it's taken me like over like, I can say over 20 years, or actually 25 years actually, I've been I've been seeking knowledge for at least 25 years since, you know, studying at like, like I started studying Darul Huda in Gita,
I got my Jazza through my chauffeur, Kadima, I studied, I've got a degree in Arabic language, which I got in Australia. And then, you know, from Arabic language, I've gone into studying, you know, it's, it's studying and Mouton and Mouton alike, religious texts. So I started studying from scholars like that was besides obviously, studying with local scholars, like, you know, when I say scholars, I've we've got mache up here, we've got, we have teachers, I made use of what I called in Australia, but we don't have, like, if you want to get into specialists, you need to seek it from overseas. Like, we didn't really have the specialization here. So like, although I spent at least
over a decade, you know, studying at classes with, you know, local machine or teachers, but then I had to outsource it was the only way to get into like more specialist knowledge.
Until I was able to do recently my degree, which all the machines have here, their, you know, handle, all in the shape, but many machines here actually doing the same degree because it's very, like Alhamdulillah actually Subhanallah I have to also mention, this is quite amazing. That my my son actually just recently graduated from Medina University as well.
That's an amazing Yes, upon a law like, it just worked out. We ended up both graduating around about the same time. I know to bark lots actually really like on a CCS, I can't explain to you.
It's actually like a miracle to be quite honest. Oh, definitely. Yes.
Alhamdulillah but yeah, so the good thing about it was that I was able to compare the course I was doing it's very, very similar, like the course I was doing. In fact, my son would often ask me for my notes because we had more comprehensive notes.
So yes to Panama, so, I'm the biller, but my journey won't end like because I absolutely adore like a lot. We're lucky it's a namah from Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah has put this amazing love in my heart for him, right? So it's not like I just got my degree and all that. See, I've got my degree now, you know, no, no, like, I'm not the type of like I have to keep going. It's like
I just wish I had a whole lifetime in my head that I can just show one more time to actually get into it more because it's just, it's so amazing. Like, it's like this bar, you know, it's
a bar, you know, like a sea of knowledge that, you know, you just you just want to keep
somebody laugh and laugh. I love my body. Amazing. That's beautiful. I really love it. It's just it really is amazing, because I definitely not obviously I'm not like anywhere like even like me or anything. But I've noticed, like, when we listen to like, even just talks about Islam and stuff, like, you feel that there's, there's so much bad knowledge and the more you like, learn, the more you use one of them. And this is something I think a lot of people a lot of listeners are missing out on because they don't spend enough time learning about the deen. So then it becomes something that it's like he seems so distant and far away from us. Because, you know, we haven't attached
ourselves to it. Like I was thinking the other day sometimes about Ramadan. And, you know, I was reading book actually, and the sister was talking about how, you know, Ramadan and lockdown and how and especially obviously last year because everybody had to like kind of learn how to have Ramadan at home instead of going to Cuba and things like that.
And obviously for some people that was like, you know, a big deal not being able to go to the masjid. But you know, I was thinking acts upon Ramadan, I for me, I personally feel it's a plant that you should be like more in seclusion, you should be more like focused on your barber, like between you and yourself. I know that our way is a congregational salah, but especially for Muslim women also, like in our houses is like you get more rewarded for praying at home. And some sisters like I know that yeah, definitely. Like, you know, people feel more motivated when they're in the gym and everything, but
I just feel like this is what is missing from our lives. We don't spend enough time like the rest of the year, doing these kinds of things like together as a group, you know, I mean, like things that we doing, we spend a lot of time doing the Ramadan, we should be doing actually the whole rest of the end. And in Ramadan, that would be all all month well, we just kind of take that time out for ourselves. Because we've already been with the gym, I like constantly boxes, you know, additional prayers even doing, for example, like having Iftar together for like super fast and things like that. Can I mean if it was something that was more constant? I mean, I don't know what it's like in
Australian community, but like here, like I'm just talking about my own personal experience in the UK. Like, it's something like, it doesn't really happen, you know, I mean, you get
I think, like, I have to say Alama Baddeck the sisters in general have a very good it's a very good setup here. Like we have a lot of hell of bots.
We have Halaqaat of Quran, you know, we have, you know, places you can learn Quran we have Shediac classes, there's a lot of opportunity for sisters to come together we have sisters events, lots of sisters events. So there's lots of opportunities Alhamdulillah for, you know, sisters to come together and have that, you know, feeling of Jamaica, you know, but yeah, definitely Ramadan is for a lot of sisters. It's a time where they really want to be in print. Are we seeing other sisters in the masjid?
You know, if bars like you said, so, yeah, but it's very important for sisters to have that, to have those bases, you know, where they come together and can connect with other sisters. It's what strengthens you, like I know, in my classes, you know, hamdulillah like having the sisters that were like going on a journey together, you know, in our journey in knowledge together. And
you know, and it really does protect you, like always coming together for Halaqaat in halacha through Quran it's like a protection, you know, because you're constantly reminding yourself of what is the greatest purpose in this dunya you know what I mean? Which is, you know, you're here to strive for Jana, you know, but if you're not in the hotspots, then you find yourself often just drifting away in different directions you know?
And yeah, that's that's why the community is really important on yeah
yeah, okay, that's that's one thing that I feel like I really kind of missed like, I don't know, like
Yeah, I just miss it. Like, you know, sometimes you haven't had something but you feel like you miss it. And I mean, like,
shall Allah opens up for you to find a good community inshallah.
We've got our community online. That's an AMA. Yes, of course. Yeah, definitely. That's the thing like yeah, you know what, obviously, I love that. I love the online community. I think candlelit is really great. And I feel like I'm connecting with sisters now that you know, are really like feel like we're kind of on the same page especially exactly, you know, I'm attracted to like people who have that Islamic knowledge you know, like this. This is this is the best thing for me. So that's why I like but like as well, like, you still wish that it was like in the real life because everything
somehow because because gearing towards being online, you almost feel like you don't in the real world anymore. And I mean, like, yeah, yeah, I do know what you mean. Yeah. Like, I have to say, when I, I recently gave a talk and assisters event and I was like, this is like, this is so nice, like, as much as I don't mind giving, like talks, you know, online, which I've decided to do way more Since COVID started, that wasn't something I was doing that much before COVID. But, um, you know, giving a public talk, you know, like a live talk and seeing the sisters and being in my classes, like, honestly, it's a different feeling, it really is a connection, it's different from
the villa completely different upon Allah, like he just is that you feel the vibe and the presence numbs, you thing is just as different normally, the sisterhood the man, you know, like, just the energy of
the cavity of it as well, because obviously, like, you know, you can do like, you know, you can listen to talks online, and you can attend online classes, but then, obviously, Islam as a religion that you have to put into practice is a practical language that you have to implement. So, you know, when you have those sisters around you who are like, you know, on the same kind of, you know,
like mental, like, you know, wages you that, you feel that, you know, in your practical day to day life, there's somebody there, like, you know, you feel that you've got that connection, you know, you're checking each other kind of thing, you know, Yes, true. Yeah. Yeah.
So, um, sister with regards to the niqab and danger. Do you feel that there's a difference between how sisters that wear the niqab get treated versus sisters, whoever he can get treated? Have you seen any differences? In Yes. So, look, I'm, I have felt in the past that sometimes I need to, like,
purposely try to break down some assumed barriers with other sisters. Like, I sometimes feel that some sisters might feel more intimidated by you. Like, if you were in a car, like, they might assume that, that perhaps you're judgmental of them, or something like that. So I found that I kind of needed to try as much as possible to show to show my down to earth side as much as possible, you know, I'm trying to say because I and I know that there have been there are unfortunately, some bad examples out there that are very negative and very, like,
they're very rigid, they're very harsh. You know, and sometimes if someone's had an experience like that, they might think that women who went above or sisters were in a pub, that they like that as well. So sometimes you can get stereotyped
yet, but anyway, so besides that, then
I do feel that like, Inshallah, if a sister is wearing the niqab, you know, correctly, and they have the right intention, I do feel that
I do really believe that it can instill greater taqwa in the hearts of many brothers, you know, I do really feel that, like, you when when the when a brother is good, and you know, he's got a, you know, in shall goodness in him, you'll feel that he feels extra respectful of you. Right? I've not I've noticed that.
The other thing is that, I believe that like, when ISIS was a big thing, I think then apoB began to become a little too associated with terrorism. I felt like at one stage, it was quite negative for people like, it was difficult for us wearing a cop, I feel like we will just there was such a strong association between that. But Alhamdulillah Allah He COVID was kind of like, for in the matter was to use straw because
because we've COVID I really feel I'm sure, I think you probably feel the same, that it's really broken down so many barriers for us as an Applebee's. Like, I feel like people are far more comfortable now, when it comes to face coverings like then than they used to be. And I do feel that sometimes even I sense a feeling of respect even sometimes that they they realize that wait a minute, you know, wearing pubs not such a bad thing. She's actually keeping herself to herself. It's not something harmful to me it's so I think that yeah, I really believe that the whole outlook towards Nepal has changed dramatically since especially since COVID. Yeah, definitely. I agree with
that definitely because even though it was just few days ago, but had some work done in my house like electrician had to come rounds for like you know, and supply like it was a man so worthy of that obviously I had my laptop and then it's just like, you know, you open the door and like it usually like when when they see you but it's kind of like almost like a look of like oh a bit surprised like we
have a but when opened that when they open the doors time is just like, you know, it was just like, yeah, we're all like we're all the same because they're Muslim.
Like I tell you something really funny. I couldn't believe this because I always used to think my mom absolutely hated the niqab, you know, but then the funny thing was when the cove when COVID came in, she has to wear a mask. I couldn't believe she actually said that. She felt the black niqab looked nicer to her than wearing a face mask. And I was like, what I go can you please repeat that I go, Are you sure? I go, you really mean that you actually believe
is better than a face veil because I actually used to, I used to avoid wearing black no cotton from my family. I used to wear like other colors. You know, like I've got this page one. I used to tone it down a bit. But then when she said she actually liked the black niqab more than the face fell on like, I mean, sorry, the mice maschere the face mask. I was like, I can't believe you just said that. And we actually had ladies, we had ladies non Muslim ladies going to our Islamic he job shops and going and buying no carbs during COVID and wearing it. And like they were normal outfit. Like, you know, short short dress, no normal outfit and they're going and they're wearing like they're
wearing the niqab.
It was so funny.
Oh, gosh. My is really fun. was funny. We took some photos.
Oh, wow. Okay.
My gosh. Okay, so on that note, would you describe the niqab as being a barrier? And if so, what sense?
Okay, so, um, I find that a really interesting question, because so like so many years ago, like, as I said, I put them up on right now, I've always been into dour, right. I've been into data from, like, the really early days, as my, as my community knows, because I've, you know, I've been there all the time.
But the funny thing was, I was told by some people that like if I was really serious about data, that I would never be effective, as long as I choose to wear the niqab. Wow. Yeah. And I thought it'd be a barrier to me in Dawa. But the interesting thing is that, ironically,
I feel it, in fact, opened up so many doors to me
more than if I had just been wearing hijab, like,
for example, you know, I'm not sure that I would have been able to just put my face out there on social media, like, I've got quite a public
platform on social media, I don't think I'll be honest, I don't think I would have been to do that. If I wasn't wearing niqab. I would not feel comfortable, you know. And I give public talks as well. I give public talks, I am quite involved in my local community. So I don't think personally, I would have been able to do that if I wasn't wearing the niqab. And I do feel that a lot of brothers feel more comfortable to ask me to give talks or to you know, do you understand, like, certain platforms, I do feel open up more because the fact that they feel comfortable because I'm wearing in a pub, you don't try to say so I actually feel it work the opposite way for me panela?
I think definitely. For me, it's the same because I've done a few talks, just in Newcastle. I'm involved with the data center. And if I hadn't be when covered, I wouldn't have done it. I just wouldn't. But yeah, I'm already camera shy kind of thing with this. Thought it would just be nice to me. This my wife. Yeah.
Sorry, I feel I feel it gives me the kind of little bit of extra kind of confidence to do those kind of things. Otherwise, I just, it would just be like,
yeah, let alone that alone. Social media as well, even to be honest. Like, I think, especially with regards to social media, even my dad, like my parents are not Muslim, but my dad would not like that. He wouldn't like me, like putting myself like, okay, he just like because, you know, our family were very private. And yeah, so yeah, he doesn't agree with these kinds of things. And they didn't like that. I wouldn't say parties because my dad like any kind of school thing. Like, if anything, like he always checks what I posted online. So it's like, yeah, no, not even indicates like, um, you know, that maybe I've even mentioned like, a family member or even mentioned something
of what I've done that day, he'll be like, Oh, right. Why are you talking about these things? Right? Yeah. Like, I don't be like, you know, talking about personal things, really. But when he mentions this kind of stuff, he just makes me think. So. I like it because I feel like he's checking me and I mean, because, you know, you can start doing something and feel like oh, this is like, nothing wrong with it. And then you can go maybe too far. So I like
for me, so that reminder. hamdulillah no lapse. So have you met other sisters in the community? In Australia In Australia now? Right. So in Australia, have you met
other sisters for example Do they really want to live in a house but they're too afraid to grow or they've got family members that kind of make them feel that they can't work like pressures or anything like that? Yeah, look you know you will get I will come across sisters like we did some a phobia when that rose up I do feel a lot of sisters felt very you know, concerned a lot more concerned about wearing niqab you know about
potential risks and stuff like that depending on your area, like the area I live in, it's the lot of Muslims in my area. So I feel very confident and I feel safe in my area. But if you don't live in a very high, you know, like with a high density or you know, say like a highly populated area of Muslims
you might fight I can understand that you know what I mean? I can understand living in an area where there's there's hardly any Muslims, you may feel a little bit less safe.
But besides that, you know, okay, so you will get obviously sometimes sisters who would like to wear it
their husband doesn't support them or you know, their family don't want them to wear it.
Look, I normally would tell people like either you either can try to convince your husband or your family if you can't there's no use making a big family feud. Yeah, you know over it. If you're married with your husband, your husband's happy with you to wear it then by all means, you know? Go ahead and and you know, wear it but um, if it's going to create a huge marriage problem I'm not going to tell sisters to go and just put it on anyway and you know, make a big marriage problem
you know, because we know that this is the life of the scholars on like there's a long standing if the lifelong standing different difference of opinion on the knockout like on whether or not copies were DE BOER, you know, it's a recommended Sonata. So, you know, are you going to make a big
issue in your life over something that it's not even like fod, like the hijab, you know, wear hijab has no difference of opinion about it, you don't try and say, that's what we have to not compromise, you know, but so, you know, you've got to just try to gently see if you can persuade the people around you and if you can't, then just wear your hijab the best you can and keep on making dua to Allah subhanaw taala to find a way for you and and inshallah Allah knows what's best for you, you know.
Really good advice. Definitely. So have you met any sisters in your time of when our boy even before who was forced into wearing it? Because I mean, he did mention earlier that, you know, even you had, like this idea that he just didn't live in a pub in general, will be saved many sisters, you've been forced to wearing that. And obviously, even in your time being in Saudi Arabia.
Yeah, you know, to be honest, I actually don't really, I don't, I don't think I've ever met anyone who was actually forced to wear the niqab. Like, in Saudi Arabia, there were more as an herbalist in Saudi Arabia, there were more as a custom.
They don't actually like it's, it's it. Now, it's changed a lot in Saudi when from when I was first leaving there, but it was just part of the given culture that everyone everyone covers their face, you know, it was normal.
So you didn't, it wasn't like someone questioned or I wouldn't wear it, or you know, it's just, you're just going to wear it. But then when they'd go out of the country, a lot of them as you would probably know, like, some of them even take off the hijab when they go out. You know? Of course, they're not that they're not the religious ones, the good ones, mashallah, they won't do that, right.
But yeah, in general, I didn't really come across. I can't remember anyone that I can ever think of that was actually false. Because I don't, I don't think that Nakaba is something you can do unless you really want to do it from your heart.
That's what I can say. It's got to come from your heart, you've got to be fully convinced. You know, you got to really love it, you got to really want to do it. Because you know, like, it's gonna be different for you, if you're gonna wear it.
It's gonna it depends on how your lifestyle is to you know, like I'm, I'm Alhamdulillah on I could you could say call describe my situation as a privileged type of situation where Alhamdulillah I'm able to take me I'm married, I'm not forced to go out and work full time. You know, like other sisters who are not in that situation like how many people are divorced now single mothers and all that, you know, they don't have that kind of like they might need to go to work they might need to work and to support their families you know, they shouldn't feel guilty that they're not able to do this kind of lifestyle
you know what I mean? Like it is a lifestyle Yes, it is a lifestyle and you need to be able to it needs to be practical in your life to be able to also do it and you know that you've got someone who goes out really does the shopping for you don't always have to go out and do the shopping you know all the outside stuff.
Get I'm trying to say absolutely yeah. Not being a single mom for like 12 years so yeah, you
all these things that I'm just a caveat child.
struggle like I do, because I've a lot of friends.
I know a single mother know what they gotta do that
They've got to be the they've got to be the father and the mother. They've got
everything. Yes, yes, I'll be really easy persistence. I don't put them through any kind of guilt feeling like that. Oh, they can't do that. You know what I mean? No. Does that come off as sisters with is, you know, may Allah reward you for your striving?
Yeah, so it's a lot of work. Definitely. That's something I just advise people to break. For example, like young sisters who then make they might not even be mothers, but just for example, if they want to go to like university and study and things like that, you know, because sometimes, people like, you know, some of the young girls here in the community, they're feeling like pressured, like, oh, like they start learning about the niqab. And then they feel like, oh, maybe I should, wherever and I just said to them, well, even if you want to wear it, just like part time, you could do that. But don't put the pressure on yourself that you must wear it all the time to feel
that. And then when you go to uni, for example, you're going to college, and then you feel like you can't wear it, because whatever you're studying, and it's kind of Yeah, will be in the wage. And I mean, I think that makes them apprehensive about it as well. You know, you're gonna see a situation like Alhamdulillah, I was actually I actually studied at uni. I did a full degree here.
Wearing niqab. So, and my daughter did too. And I'm, like, maybe want to interview my daughter one day, she was in a club to actually my daughter. Yes, definitely. Definitely. And, um, she's actually working as a teacher now. And she's working in public schools. And she was called right or wrong. Um, yeah, Mashallah. Um, so she also went University wearing a cop, too, so. And that was her own choice. I mean, I'll be honest with you, I, my advice to my daughter was, wait to your finish your teaching practice, you know, finish your teaching pack, finish your uni. And then when you get married, you can really knock off but she didn't listen to me or my husband. And she decided that
no, I'm going to wear it.
And that was your teaching pack?
And I think he has, it depends on the individual. You know, I mean, have you conviction in you that you just want to do it? And yes, I'm the way to do it. But that's right. Some people they a lot of pressure on themselves. They want to do something? And then maybe they'll start and then it's my Yeah, then they feel oh, no, it's too much. And then they kind of throw it all away. And then maybe some Yeah, well, another thing people do is almost because they feel that they can't do it. And they try then it's just like, oh, no, it shouldn't be done. But you don't have that much pressure on yourself to not I mean, you're right. I definitely write that when people just go for it to be
honest. Like, yeah, anything you know, like, if you really feel that conviction to do is just have the legends character is great. Yeah, you've got to see your own situation. Everyone has their own individual situation. Yeah.
was gonna ask you next.
What's gonna ask you next? Yeah. So what what advice would you give to them in general sisters who are thinking about when they're, what's your like, one sentence of advice you would give them? Look, I'll just say everybody needs to assess their own individual situation, have a look to see are you going to be able to be supported in your choice? And whether, you know, you're also supported in, you know, do you have to? Are you the type that needs to always go at your home? Are you going to have people who are going to support you in sort of, like, getting some shopping for you? And you know, what I'm trying to say, see, you got to see, don't make don't put too much pressure on
yourself, you know that.
But, you know, besides that, it's, you know, we know that no carb is is definitely part of Islam. You know, it's at least a recommended sunnah. So, you know, if you're in an ideal situation, then I would definitely encourage you know, any sister to think about it and inshallah seek the reward. You know, from Allah subhanaw taala in doing that, Inshallah, Inshallah, inshallah. Brooke Rafiq, and I'll ask you in sha Allah the final question now, which is what does the knockout mean to you? Yeah. varkala freaky. So look, for me, then apoB has always been about, you know, emulating our greatest role models, right? I show Radi Allahu, and her, you know, the other wives of the Prophet saw La
Jolla set him on Selma. You know, helps.
You know, I've always had that hope that inshallah if we, you know, tried to emulate them in the way that they used to dress that inshallah hopefully that would also impact other areas of our life. You know, and you probably know that Hadith also of the Prophet SAW Larson. I mean, she says, Mantis shatta. Habib all mean for who I mean home, right? Or Amar Omar men, a hab like whoever resembles a people will be be with them and a person will be from who for with who they love, like so when you when you love someone, you try to emulate them and especially if we're talking about Manhattan, what we mean we're talking about the Sahaba yet so we really ask ALLAH that will be raised with them on
your Nakayama, you know, and of course in a pod, not the only thing but it's a start, you know, for me, it's like a stepping stone hoping that when I took that step, I hope that I would also try to emulate them in their o'clock in their knowledge in their, you know, in their way of bringing up their children. You know, all of that I like a package you know,
And then besides that, you know, we all know that that Jana is different levels. Right. And so this was like for me niqab was
feeling that I hope that by this step that it helped me to reach hopefully a higher level. And I know that like I'm sure that most of us here that when you were wore the hijab, like if you never used to wear hijab and you put the hijab on
I don't know about you, but when I put the hijab on I felt like it opened up so many other areas in my life. And the same thing when the club I felt like when I put in a coupon it just opened up other areas in my life you know, I'm trying to say so that's why I feel like it's not just something small it's like taking that step towards Allah subhanaw taala and then we take that that further step that inshallah Allah, Allah will Tyler opens up other areas of your life for you as well. Inshallah. Inshallah. Allah Zachary versus the thank you so much for giving your time. It's been really a pleasure talking to you and hearing experiences and I'm sure the listeners will really have enjoyed
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