vs Apostate P on Adam Saleh & Slim’s Podcast

Mohammed Hijab


Channel: Mohammed Hijab

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The speakers stress the importance of finding a solution to problems surrounding the operation of the Islamic Republic and avoiding domestic abuse. They also discuss the use of "has" and "has not" messages in the Bible and emphasize the importance of context and evidence in finding solutions. The speakers stress the need for people to assert themselves and bring people together to address issues related to Islam, including the use of "monster" as a way to assert position. There is brief advertisement for a wrestling match in the end.

AI Generated Transcript ©

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Are your Twitter like this? Is this worse? Is this worse than telling people that they should be put to death? No, no, we don't condone it look childish, childish. you're complaining about insulting and then you're doing something? Is this is this worse?

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Hi guys, we have

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an ex Muslim so are you an ex Muslim? Yeah, ex Muslim ex was all the way you're the guy that

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you're the guy that you were what I've seen it the other day you were watching that other dude. I don't know the Deva guy who was like eating the Quran? Or do you watch you want you want to eat one? Yeah. And you were like you did a video of the ripping up the hood and stuff, don't you? Man as dirty man. Don't you think that there's a different way to like, share your opinions? And you know, cuz share your ideas instead of like, you know, disrespecting the hood and and, and ripping and eating and acting like complete hooligans. Of course, I think there's a different way to represent these things. And we could talk about what my motives are and what exquisite motives are. Yeah, but

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of course, there is a different way to express your opinions. And to be very honest, I don't think there's any point and ripping up a Quran I think it's a completely unnecessary. So why did you Why did you do that? It seemed like, it seemed like you were egging it on. Because, you know, like, like, I understand your ex Muslim, and you have your own faith. And today, you know, everybody Muslims have their own faith and another day, but like, it seems like you had like this vendetta against Muslim? No, no, like, I feel like you're an ex Muslim, but you represent an ex Muslim that, you know, like, you know, the reason it's an X is like, it should be in the past. And all right,

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like, I don't know, like, No, I did that for a very, very specific reason. When I ripped up the Quran on that show, for example, I explained very clearly why I was ripping up the Quran as I was doing it. So if people actually want to go there and see what it was, that was not what I was saying, What's the explanation to like, rip it up? And like, tell us here instead of going on to your like, tell us here like, of course, what's the point? Well, I will explain to you just let me speak I will explain to you so I am doing my ex Muslim work right. And there was there was a lot of back and forth between between Muslims and it's all going well, is it maybe you should I don't know.

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But recently between me and Muhammad, there has been a lot of Yeah, but this is not even about it's not about Mohammed hijab.

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We don't care about them. We're not defending them at all. We're defending Islam in the Quran. You know, you ripping up the hood and it's like, what what's your defense? you're mentioning them? Mohammed has a job and I have nothing to do with you ripping the hood and with disrespecting now that's what I'm trying to say, you know, but it has to do with this the whole protest. So you know, it doesn't have to do with ripping up they have nothing to do just It wasn't an act of protesting. So revolt is what you know which people you're offending you're offending so many people are you going to them for no reason? Do you believe about like right and wrong as ex Muslims? Like do you

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believe in right and wrong? Of course I do. But come on. I do like it. Do you think that what you did was right. I came here so we can we can exchange x? Yeah, we're just asking a question like do you do you think what you did was right though, like do you think that's right? I think it was right Yes. It's eating ripping up so just because you disagree with a certain group of people you think you're gonna you're gonna believe in Islam is right. No we do not we do not condone of killing we do not do things well anyway. If someone who thinks sending veiled rape threats no one changes of religion or anything we don't we don't condone killing innocent islamically if you kill one person

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it's like you killed all of humanity. That's how precious life is in Islam. You are aware that right but according to Islam, someone who leaves Islam and to openly says that he left Islam is supposed to be put to death all Islamic? You know No, we do not we do not condone of killing anyone. You must have had a misunderstanding when you were Muslim. I feel like you must have had a misunderstanding. I feel like and it's gotten to the point where you're ripping them. Have you not recently made a response video to me and even made a response video in which

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our Mohammed hijab seems like it has nothing. I don't care about it though. I don't care about Muhammad hijab I'm talking about you. Why are you ripping up the Quran and you thinking it's right because it's an active Why are you ripping up and you're eating like a child and the Fed is trying to back it up as it's like some for some protests. Like Come on. That's a petty excuse my friend. You're disrespecting I

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recently made a video on Mohammed. Mohammed you love them? No, no, we do not condone we do not no one none of them none of us condone or anything. We do not. We do not condone. Oh, no, no, no. human life is all of humanity. You must you must have misunderstood it. And why did you put Allahu Akbar under

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God His greatest enemies this video

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should be killed.

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Allahu Akbar it means God is the greatest it means God did you forget that? famously depends on like, the way you you take it like a lot but probably to you mean some other crazy things because you probably see things in the media that probably that's affecting your you know, your small brain. But you have to understand that like, it means if you look, it's called God. I don't think both of you are above intelligent people. I could no see Oh, wow.

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I mean, your audio tells you either you record ads for protests. I could see. There's so many different ways to protest.

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But it's not about

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this is this is very childish. I didn't come here to insult you. I don't. Yeah, no.

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We're trying to understand you like I'm really I'm very confused of me. You're not telling me speak for five seconds you speak Speak. Speak to me. You're interrupting me whatever. I said, I haven't. I did it. I never said a person. I never said nothing. I never said nothing. you typed it here on the screen time. I thought I thought I was in a I don't know why. It was a plus. for profit, you know, of course. But

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um, yeah. So as I was saying, I have a question. I have a question Why? Like, why is it when someone you know, leaves Islam, they end up putting, like, you know, everywhere in their bios and everywhere, like, oh, ex Muslim, ex Muslim, they always it's like, Islam is live living rent free in their heads, like what?

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Yes, I will let you explain that. How about this? Let me give me two minutes. Give me two minutes, I will explain to you okay.

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You have two minutes for what? I will explain to you why an ex Muslim like me, for example, or other ex Muslims speak out against Islam and put it on their bios, I will explain it to you. Could you give me two minutes and promised me not to not to wait? Two minutes, three minutes? You can answer it from your heart. Give me the answer from your soul. Your Spirit, I'm setting a timer. Can you?

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Can you give me two minutes? To explain why.

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You know,

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I know you you kind of you offer to be on our on our podcasts and stuff like that. And you? You're I don't know, I feel like in a way, I feel like you, you know that we're not really knowledgeable, that you say that, oh, you're not logical Islam. You shouldn't be saying that at all, you know, saying we, we still like we're Muslim at the end of the day. But we there's more scholars, Islamic scholars, and people who know who are very knowledgeable, they go to school for it. And they know so we have, we have a friend of a friend of ours who's gonna come and you know, talk to talk to all of us and who's more knowledgeable about this. So come on in.

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He's very educated. So like, you know,

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he's, well, he's a very good friend of ours. Who's knowledgeable and would know, like, just, I want to, like be able to

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exchange like words with you as well.

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He's gonna come in, yo.

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Uh huh. Where's he at?

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In the meantime, if you want to talk about Yeah, your two minute timer thing, okay. He's a chance there's a chance while he comes in. So he asked me why people are so obsessed with Islam and why they make it so open that they have left Islam and the way they talk about Islam. Let me tell you that there are many ex Muslims in the world, including me. I grew up with Islam. I was extremely religious. When I was on mute. unmute them. unmute. unmute. As I'm as I'm gonna No, no, no, no him. Oh, let him go after that. As unmute.

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So go on go. I'm sorry. Go on. I was extremely religious. When I was a Muslim. I believed in Islam very firmly. I was raised until I was a nationality by the way I want to know your nationality. Turkish I was raised with it. My parents are very religious. I was in very religious environments. And after after leaving Islam, like many other Muslims, like many other ex Muslims, I was basically shocked basically rejected by society. My situation is not very bad. I live in America freely right now. I have burned the bridges. I've come here I'm free. I can do and say whatever I want. But it's not about me. It's about so many other people. And in over 12 countries, it is officially punishable

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by death. To leave Islam and leaving Islam leaving Islam is today in 2020, officially punishable by death. In many other countries, it is forbidden. In many other countries. It's a social taboo, people persecute and, you know, punish their kids and their, their loved ones. There's no one wants for leaving Islam. So people live under persecution if they leave Islam, so your entire life is affected by Islam. And afterwards, if you decide not to believe in it, just because you don't believe in it, you're also followed and persecuted for that. So it is completely normal that somebody who leaves Islam whose entire life was defined by the fears of Islamic by the introduction

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of Islam. Also, we have our friend here who's more of a I feel like he's way more I will not talk to Mohammed to job, mommy's job. He's really my wife.

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know, you've disrespected No, I

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think and then and then you talk

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about him.

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I have

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to unmute me.

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I made a debate over.

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I can't hear any of you on zoom. And you unmute. unmute on zoom. Yes. Can you hear us? Yeah, can you okay? I'm gonna come to Zen caster job.

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No, it's alright. We're here. Can you hear us here? I can hear you guys. boy. He's gonna have to unmute if he wants to engage. Oh, okay. Can you unmute your microphone? I could do that here. Can you hear us now? Yeah, yeah. Now I haven't. I haven't been paying attention to what you've been saying. Because I haven't I can't actually hear pretty much. As I was saying, we were telling him about his childish acts how he was doing. Yeah, ripping the poor and and watching that guy eat chocolate. And he's trying to defend himself. But he just kept on mentioning your name. It was a name, which I feel like it's childish. It has nothing to do with Muhammad hijab, but it this is

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about you disrespecting. You know that. What and like, what kind of there's different ways to share your opinions. I have to I have to say something very quickly. You have Ottomans? slim. You have invited me here today? Yes, actually, I acted as if you were very genuine people texted me.

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We are talking.

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You didn't say anything about Mohammed to Josh's

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I would not have come here if mamita job was here because offer to Mohamad to job which we're here.

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After what Mama T Jobs had taught me to commit suicide.

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He tried to listen

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to the side.

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Talk and

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I just want to say one thing before you I mean, you can go if you want to. That's just gonna it's just gonna say something about your spirit here.

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Can you stop?

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Listen, listen, listen.

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Listen, would you respect I mean, what we can do now?

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Okay, no problem. No problem. No problem. Let's listen to you while you

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Your chance to speak. Give me a chance to speak. All I'm saying all I'm saying now. Putting all of the hostilities in a toxicity set aside, I will not put it aside. Oh, well, if you can't, if you can't manage that, right? If you can't manage that, then you can't manage freedom of speech.

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It has nothing to do with freedom of speech. It's okay to eat up. I laugh at it and rip it up. But when I'm doing

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I'm not being insulting to you right now. Yeah. Listen,

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listen, listen. Sorry, please. You're a person who refutes Islam intellectually, that's at least the claim that you make. All I'm doing now we're people that have much bigger platforms in you. We're giving you a chance, okay. As an unqualified person who as you are to actually make a case against Islam.

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giving you a chance. I'm gonna I'm gonna save this.

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Just for a second just for a second. Stop being emotional. Stop being emotional. Because all we're saying is look, if you have a case against Islam, all I want to hear now is your strongest argument against Islam. I will not talk to you say your strongest argument

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against Islam. I'm happy to hear it. I will. I will not talk to

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Mommy, you have to talk. You are talking to me. How about you have an opportunity now to speak in front of millions of Muslim I will I have made you an offer and we listen.

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You have a chance The floor is yours. The floor is yours. In front of

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millions of people. This is your chance. This is your chance what we're saying it makes you one Listen, this is your chance in front of millions of people. Listen Oh, but the opposite side for now.

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jittery, don't be jittery. Don't be scared.

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Shut the hell up. Calm down, calm down. Don't be angry.

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Take a chill pill.

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You know what?

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I mean. So you know what I feel like, I feel like you're trying to take advantage of me and slim because we're not knowledgeable. Muhammad hijab is ours. He's a friend of ours is very educated. He is he is inspiring, why? Take it off your headphones, put your phones on can hear us.

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Let me speak RSP please do. Listen here. He said, we just said present your strongest argument.

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All right. We're letting you speak. Number one, let me speak number one, I made it I made an offer to Mohammed to job which was very clear in the very beginning, which was that we are going to have an online debate, there is the fairest discourse that you could possibly know.

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Him. So he's, he's using that excuse. Whenever you keep interrupting I listen, listen, you made an offer to debate him right favorite

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debate in the world?

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Because you're not letting me talk. Do you see the difference? The difference between a debate would be that I would have 20 minutes to talk to john would have 20 minutes to talk.

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Number two items.

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I have offered you a very clear choice and said I will come to you for two minutes.

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And talk to Ali Dawa. And it seems like Oh, no.

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Did I?

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can I say?

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Look, look, all I'm saying is this right? Putting all of the negotiations aside for the debate. Look, we're here, here. And now people on your side and my side they want to hear and engagement. If you want me to be respectful respect, we don't like each other. That's fine. You can put that to the side. You're here in front of a fresh new audience of Muslim people. All right, we're giving you a chance as someone who is a critic of Islam or polemic against Islam, to produce your strongest argument against it. Now I'm going to say is this it Look, I'm happy to stay quiet. For as long as you want me to stay quiet right now. If you say look so quiet for five minutes. Stay quiet for 10

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minutes. I will I will be muted for that time. Okay. And then I'll have the same time to

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Yeah, I can't I can't see what's going

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on here. What are you doing?

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About now let's have our conversation.

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We're gonna pull up your tweets here. You want to pull up tweets. Let's pull up your childish tweets. You're just running away

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about your wife.

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Your wife

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doesn't say your wife anywhere. This is rape implications.

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What does it say? Your wife said right here. This is my wife. No, it doesn't say when these islamophobes

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insulted your wife, you can do it it's freedom of speech. You can do that if you like

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it you insult my prophet you eat the Quran, you rip it up.

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telling me why you

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should have sex with your wife.

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Your wife is online on a public figure by definition of

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public profile. She's open to people.

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Freedom of speech is only applicable when it's not.

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right. But then when we come back, right and do something against the public figure, which you might find distasteful you're you're now panicking and having an anxiety attack.

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Why is the cat

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The cat got your tongue your intellectual?

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strongest argument against

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you? Look, I'm saying to look if you want any minutes, I will be muted. Listen, don't worry about insults, insults or freedom of speech. That's what you believe.

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Freedom of speech.

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Look, with all due respect.

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I have four degrees to my name. I don't know anything at all.

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Those are one of those, by the way isn't political philosophy, which is about speech.

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What are your degrees? It doesn't matter.

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You don't have to tell me what you think. Because I have actually written books on liberalism. I don't care

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Do my professors when they were peer reviewing them? They didn't tell me that I was wrong about my understandings of freedom of speech. Okay? Can you clean it? Can you tell me this then? Yeah, according to you, does freedom of speech mean that you can say whatever you want, and nobody should get angry about this? Well, according to liberal philosophers like john Stuart Mill, yeah, and his book on utilitarianism, and other books, like on liberty and so on, freedom of speech is only curtailed by the harm principle. And for him for the harm principle entailed physical harm. There were some things that he mentioned in his book that he saw was distasteful, right? So for example,

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people having sexual intercourse, he said, things that affect the sensibilities of people that, for example, people having sexual intercourse, on the roadsides, john Stuart Mill, saw that as something which is unethical. But in terms of me insulting, the freedom to insult is not something which is censored by people, freedom of speech advocates, including

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philosophical founding fathers. Now, my point is, this is very hard. It's very happy days for you, when you come up and rip the Koran and eat it and spit it out. It's freedom of speech. But when I hold on, but when I don't within the scope of the law, because to this day, there's no police officer that has contacted me. And believe you me, there is no court injunction against me. All the things that I've said on Twitter are by law, UK law and US law, absolutely within the full scope of the law. And I'm waiting for a court order I'm waiting for an injunction to prove me otherwise. There's nothing within the the spirit or letter of the law. Know that within the parameters of

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freedom of speech as per liberal ethics that stopped me from insulting you and your your wife, who has a public figure platform, attacking Islam and calling the prophet of Islam all kinds of names. If you can't, if you can't handle Yes, if you cannot handle Yeah, the freedom of speech, when it comes back at you do not try and give it to people, a community of people by eating spitting out the Quran laughing at the Quran, and so on and so forth. Because that would imply that you are a person of weakness, your individual question. Yeah, yeah. So that that answers your question. Let me respond. Was it my question? Do you really think that was my question? What's your question? Just

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repeat it for you. So the question, what was your question? My question was according to your understanding of freedom of speech, does freedom of speech mean that you can say whatever you want and no one can be angered about it? No, not whatever you want. There are loads of libel There are loads of defamation There are loads of copyright laws. So there are essential freedom of speech, the freedom of speech according to you mean that no one can be angry about it. I agree about you eating and spitting out the Quran and

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of course you can matter if you don't want to play by the rules don't do the things that aggravate other communities. Well, that wasn't my what my question was about because you're making it look like we can be on guard but you're making it look like I have no right to be angry and to refuse to talk to you your anger is giving up. There's got nothing

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you offer to debate him and

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your anger. Your anger the truth doesn't care about your anger.

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This is exactly what I'm

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trying to give you a response if you haven't even let me talk

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about it. Go on Go ahead. Okay, I will include this in my upcoming video but you want me to jump I think you think you can evade that but I have a video upcoming about you in which I will

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on anybody I don't know if you're in love with him something but this is about you. ripping up the hood and and laughing at people eating the hood and talking about urinating on the hood and or your Twitter like this. Is this worse? Is this worse than telling people that they should be put to death for this guy? No, no, we don't condone it look your childish childish you're complaining about insulting and then you're doing something? Is this is this word

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affect us when you do it right and wrong. I sometimes I put I put the coat on and I can put on I can put it in it. It doesn't affect you. It's great. It's fantastic that it doesn't offend. What's your what's your point by doing that? What is this worse? so lame people?

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what we're saying that you should be killed.

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be killed. Let me Well, a plus. Listen, I'm telling you right in front of you. Don't call me boss. Okay. I can

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answer any question.

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I've talked enough if gave me the time to respond. Why would you

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7000 miles away. And to me one question. Yeah, go ahead. Adam solly slim Elba hair here. We're not convinced that this is the response according to to Islam.

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under an Islamic, unqualified understanding of it,

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yeah, you're not qualified or you let's be honest, you don't have any training in Islam Do you?

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Do you have any?

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So why are you saying, Islam you should say, according to my understanding of Islam when I'm asking you a question

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Can I ask you a question about these?

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You can ask

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the question. Yes, you are an idiot. Can I ask you the question about the Islamic rules?

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You don't even have to think about this.

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according to the Islamic jurisdiction, according to Islam, according to

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the Islamic jurisprudence, whatever, according to you. It's my third legs while you while you spend time going into answer the question, according to Islam, somebody who leaves Islam, I mean, or other people, somebody who leaves Islam and make it public. Yes, they have left Islam. Yes, explains to the public. Yeah, they have left Islam and why they have left? Is this person to be pushed to death? Well, I've written a book on this, it's actually called.

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Well, I've just I'm just want to put to you that I've written a book on this, which is actually my dissertation for one of my degrees, which I got a distinction in, and which was peer reviewed by two people in two liberal people by my eyes and given the distinction. So I think this will be a professional answer here, not like yours. My answer is this. It really depends on the situation. I'm not saying to you that Islam, the only ruling in Islam is that the person who is a public apostate is to be put to death. In fact, in the Treaty of Abia, where the Prophet Muhammad wa salam had a negotiation with so hated nama. In that treaty, that was a clear

00:26:51--> 00:27:30

parentheses put in place or clause or stipulation put in place whereby apostates would be actually redirected or strategically relocated. For that reason, even though Kamal Joe Zia. And many of the scholars, in fact, from my reading, the majority of scholars say it's possible that a public apostate and listen carefully I'm answering your question directly. A public apostate, just like yourself, not just within the Western world, but within an Islamic State is not actually put to death and is strategically located to another country, for example, a safe haven. And that is not despite the Islamic law that is because of it. And the reason and the evidence of that is the Hadith

00:27:30--> 00:28:13

in Bukhari, which is the as you know, the most authoritative Hadith book, which stipulates this point on the Khattab of, sorry, the hadith of sort of nama. So in other words, what I actually recommend in my book, which is ironic, I say that in this day and age, my position is not that apostates, even in Muslim countries, this is my position, even in Muslim countries which claim to rule by Islamic law. I proposed in the book, yes, in the book, I proposed that it would be within the Muslim has a common interest of the Muslim people. Yeah, to make peace treaties, the lack of which was seen by the prophet Mohammed himself, with non Muslim countries such that apostates in

00:28:13--> 00:28:51

certain Muslim countries are not to be put to death and in fact, are strategically located to other non Muslim countries in a way to protect their life. And in fact, if you go against such treaty, according to the scholars that I've mentioned him the claimant, Josie and Medallia and others, who actually mentioned this very explicitly in their jurisprudential tracks. If you go against this, then that would be something which is seen as immoral because it goes against the contractual agreements. It doesn't matter either. chapter five verse one, yeah, you're Latina, Mo ob la code, oh, you have believed, be faithful to your contracts. And that includes contracts with disbelieving

00:28:51--> 00:29:32

nations include includes contracts with non Muslim nations and so on. So my position actually is this if there is a country now that wants to rule by Islamic law, I do not think it is within the common interests of that particular country to exercise that particular law of Apostasy. I think it is within full the full scope of the jurisprudential Islamic allowance as well as the law for that Muslim country to make a peace treaty with other non Muslim countries such that there'll be a strategic relocation and that is my position on the matter. Yes, of course, in history, there have been times where there have been public policies, but in the books I've written, and the capital

00:29:32--> 00:29:54

punishment employed, but that's not the position that I think is most beneficial for the world today. And I think, actually my historical analysis Well, I did a historical analysis. I looked at America and I looked at turkey which countries you are contradicting with, with with with the historical consensus in Islamic jurisprudence, actually, I've just mentioned to you know, you you're saying I'm contradicting it, I'm giving you evidence from

00:29:55--> 00:29:58

this one. There's no difference of opinion. I've just told you I'm not claiming Josie

00:29:59--> 00:29:59


00:30:00--> 00:30:02

They're not sorry. He mentioned the allowance.

00:30:04--> 00:30:09

The majority consensus is that apostates are to be put to death, which are you're forcing you're forcing your worldview.

00:30:13--> 00:30:22

in the world today, I'm not saying, Listen, listen, I don't know what you want me to say. I'm telling you what you don't want to hear maybe. But I'm telling you, it's possible. Yes.

00:30:24--> 00:30:25

You can hear.

00:30:26--> 00:31:02

As you know, as you know, I'm not shy to say something outrageous. I'm a wild character. If I want to say something outrageous, I have no problem telling you what, what it is that I've looked at, from the books that I've read. And the scholars that I've spoken to all of them agree with me? Yes, that actually it's completely conceivable and totally allowable, within a Muslim nation, that a Muslim nation does a peace treaty with a non Muslim nation. And Apos a public apostates that come out and say, we are public apostates, we are against the Prophet Mohammed, we are against the police like you, and even, you know, so on and so forth.

00:31:03--> 00:31:32

Maybe not just like you, actually, but someone who does all that stuff. And then they can be what will happen to you? Well, it depends on what you want to do. If you are a public apostate and just go ahead. If I did exactly what I'm doing right now, in the ideal Islamic country, what would happen to me? Well, look, if you did what you're doing right now, in an ideal Islamic country, I'm sure there will be vigilantes. Okay, that will take that will take the law into their own hands. I'm not there's a difference between what the civilians do. Yes, and what the law says, In an ideal Islamic countries.

00:31:34--> 00:31:49

asking me if I you know, this is a film called Die Hard three, you know, I used to watch films when I was younger, by Hard with a Vengeance. And then you know, Bruce Willis, he came with this, with this poster saying, I hate niggas sorry to say the word but he said, I hate niggas, and he went to Harlem, you know, how the hell I mean, you

00:31:50--> 00:32:05

guys saw him and they were gonna kill him. I'm not gonna tell you that if you were living in a Muslim majority place and you're ripping up the Quran in front of in Pakistan or someplace that you're gonna be fine. I'm not gonna tell you another like, I'm not talking about laws. I'm talking to you about what's comfortable.

00:32:07--> 00:32:13

About the law. Yeah, the law. What I'm saying to you is, I've just told you what the law is public. You said you said, yeah.

00:32:14--> 00:32:23

From the law perspective, is it's totally conceivable, as I've just mentioned, right. And, you know, what I've said is the book that the books that I've written, which is called the

00:32:24--> 00:32:59

public, sorry, I mean, it's a treatise, I said, it's called dumb, critique. critiques of the public, the liberal critique to the death, that's the name of the book was that Rafa forgot the name of the book. It's called a liberal critiques to the death, okay. And this book, why, why I actually show historically is this, because I'm sure you're aware, you're a Turkish speaking person, you can actually access now online, the majority of Ottoman archives, and a lot of it will be an ottoman language. So it's actually not even in Arabic. But this is its kind of Arabic stripped by Ottoman Turkish, right. So we have a translator who looked at from the period of say, but beside this, the

00:32:59--> 00:33:38

second, which is about 1517, all the way up to when the end of the Ottoman Empire, we looked at that, or we also looked at America. And what we found was quite intriguing, actually, because what we found is that there were some acts in America, for example, burning of flags, and so on, and so forth, which were persecuted by death. And I show you the case studies in the book. And so this was a symbolic act. It wasn't a military act, it was seen as treacherous and treasonous. And in the same way, there were some instances like that in the Ottoman Empire. What I found quite interesting, though, was that the Ottoman judges were less way more reluctant to exercise apostasy laws, in terms

00:33:38--> 00:33:41

of the primary source materials that is referenced in the book, and you can check it out.

00:33:43--> 00:34:19

We have access to maybe directly so you can check out actually on an implementation level, how much this was actually implemented. By the way, I'm not trying to say and I want to make this very clear, I'm not trying to say that there is no such thing as the capital punishment in Islam for non non allegiance to the state, which is like a debt. I'm not saying that but what I'm saying is, there is maneuverability within the law, the scope, the scope of the law. So such that A hacking if you like a ruler, can there's a scope of maneuverability there. What I'm saying is and this is not a reformed position, it's not a liberal position. This is within the traditionalist discourse and I think

00:34:19--> 00:34:38

people like you should actually listen to people like me, because if I if I if I get my way, right, if, if I had my recommendation in place, then in fact, the world would be in your world a safer place in your understanding. So why why are you asked me for me to want to kill the people like I don't want to kill I don't believe you. Look, you don't have to believe me. I've

00:34:39--> 00:34:46

condemned the killing of apostates. Look, condemn it. Yeah, because if you kill apostates, no, there was no there was no law.

00:34:52--> 00:34:53

I absolutely condemn.

00:34:56--> 00:34:59

Absolutely condemn the killing of apostates because

00:35:00--> 00:35:33

That is completely against majestic or an order. apostates. Listen, I say to you something, you notice the Hadith, and we're talking about primary source materials now. They have been yet man. He's a Sahabi, he had a list of individuals who for all intensive purposes, there were more than 15. There are people who have lost their faith. And the list of all of those individuals, including Abdullah, bin, saloon and others, those individuals, none of them were killed. Why? Even though all of them were not they were not sympathetic to Mohammed Salah In fact, they were they went against him, none of them why were they not killed? The reason why they were not killed is because I put to

00:35:33--> 00:35:54

you and this is what a Salafi says the Hanafi jurists, and this is before liberalism was even invented. He wrote, this is nothing to do with you changing your faith. Islam, Allah is not afraid of you changing your faith, you can change your faith or your like. We don't care because Allah will judge you on the Day of Judgment. We believe those who changed their face and become apostates who may attend the dandini he failed to hold capital for olaya habitat.

00:35:55--> 00:36:26

There will be in the Hellfire and burning and all that stuff. We believe in the tail damnation. I mean, that's even worse than that. But for us, it's a eschatological reality. We we say that this has nothing to do with you changing your faith. It's all to do. Yes, with the allegiance or non allegiance to a state and they feel bad or the allegiance is premised on a theological reality, which is, yes. And you believe if you believe that the state should be Islamic, and everybody should be forced to pledge allegiance to the state? I don't know. I don't think that there's any look if it's a Muslim majority country? Absolutely.

00:36:27--> 00:36:29

Yeah, if so, what is the difference, then?

00:36:32--> 00:36:50

I think if it's a Muslim majority country, then there's a democratic impetus for the even on democratic worldview, for you to say, well, the majority are Muslim, if they want Islam, then surely on democratic principles outside this should have nothing to do with that. But everything everything that you have said was just a complete waste of time because you believe that

00:36:52--> 00:36:57

you believe in Islam that in Islamic State and Islamic government should be established if the majority is Muslim.

00:37:00--> 00:37:03

You for example, you for example want to spread Islam to the entire UK so if

00:37:08--> 00:37:08


00:37:09--> 00:37:14

I don't believe in Islamic State and this state should require I don't want an Islamic State in Britain

00:37:16--> 00:37:24

for example, left Islam in that Islamic State and openly about it and openly spoke against this religion, then I would be put to death and

00:37:25--> 00:37:26

I'm not saying you're put to death on

00:37:27--> 00:37:31

making it seem like we want to kill you with no one wants to kill you like playing the villain.

00:37:33--> 00:37:33


00:37:35--> 00:37:41

or Christian or an atheist? That's your decision. I swear to God, I don't care. I swear by

00:37:43--> 00:37:47

that, why do you think you are you are aware that the majority of you

00:37:48--> 00:38:03

and for that reason you will be you'll be eternally damned in the hellfire. You are aware that the majority of your fellow Islamic Islamic scholars and apologists agree that that apostates who make their apostasy open should be put to death, including your friends, or the dharwad, including Tony Leakey.

00:38:06--> 00:38:16

Think they are wrong and you condemn them for that? Well, here's my belief. Here's my belief. I believe that what they're saying is that mentioning a classical opinion in the books of faith or just saying it should happen there

00:38:18--> 00:38:57

should happen. My view is that if we actually have an Islamic State, and this is what I recommended in my book, it's in print. It's in print. Yeah, I'm saying that if there is an Islamic State, I believe that that Islamic state should have a peace treaty with a non Islamic State, such that apostates public apostates don't need to be killed or don't are not killed at all. There's no harm done to them. And they're strategically relocation and that is not despite the acquire of the Prophet It is because of the sayings of the Prophet and the evidence of that is the fact that the Prophet master Salaam in today, BIA he actually had a peace treaty to that effect. He had without

00:38:57--> 00:39:07

expects is that without exception for all apostates? Yes, all apostates will be used you think you think no apostates should be killed? They should all be relocated to different countries? Absolutely. That's that's my view. I don't think

00:39:08--> 00:39:47

that's a good idea. That's a really good I think that if you have a Muslim apostate public apostates, because if you're part of it, if you're doing things privately, there's no harm on you. But there's considerable harm, as you know, on a post public apostates who apostate plasticize in Muslim majority of places. So those individuals should be relocated, in my view, yet to other non Muslim countries. And that is not despite what the prophet said. It's because of what he allowed in the final peace treaty that he concluded with suhaila Bahama. And in fact, it will tie him in his in his discussion of this and other scholars. I'm just midmichigan McLean because it comes to mind. He

00:39:47--> 00:39:59

says it's not abrogated, this is an abrogated law. So if this if this peace treaty is in place, my view is that actually that should be what happens now. I've said I would like to I would like to reiterate this

00:40:00--> 00:40:17

For the public because I think this is very great news because many other people, especially as many of those who oppose Islam would like to hear this in very short sentences. So Mohammed job here agrees that mamita job opposes the general ruling of the killing of all of apostates, public and private apostates.

00:40:18--> 00:40:25

He agrees that and he agrees that in an Islamic State in Islamic country, which a majority Muslim country should lead to

00:40:27--> 00:40:39

apostates, apostates should not be killed, but they should be forcibly relocated to other countries, which is still by definition genocide, but at least it is not to death. So that is what you decide.

00:40:40--> 00:40:42

It's not genocide. No, it's not just

00:40:44--> 00:41:32

stop trying to use words that are you don't know what the definitions of it is, by definition. Can I just articulate it? Can I correct articulation. Mohammed hijab believes that in an ideal Islamic State in the 21st century, that if there is a Muslim country, Muslim majority country that claims to rule by Islamic law, that such Muslim Islamic country should make a peace treaty or a contract with other non Muslim countries, such that if a public apostates become apparent in the public sphere public, yes, that such public apostates are relocated, and he is basing this on the final Hadith of the Prophet Muhammad Salah where he the Prophet allowed such thing to happen with a hammer, and, and

00:41:32--> 00:42:14

were the scholars of Islam. In fact, you could even argue the majority of scholars allow such thing. Mohammed hijab is not saying it's not conceivable within an Islamic State or it's not understood classic Lee, that there was such a thing. Yeah, in the 1000 forgeries of Islamic history as public apostasy? Sorry, I added the punishments. I'm not I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that there's a maneuverability within the scope of jurisprudence, Islamic jurisprudence, which allows Muslims to actually make this kind of contract. And I think that if Muslim majority countries make such contracts, that that will decrease the ability of the non Muslim enemy, yes, to be able to

00:42:14--> 00:42:20

attack Islam and its peoples on the pretense of human human rights. And I think think it is not conceivable that there should be such a thing.

00:42:21--> 00:42:42

I don't understand the question. Sorry. Could you repeat that? You said you said you're not saying that it is not conceivable that there was such a thing in the history and in the past? Yeah. The killing of apostates. Do you also say that it is not conceivable that there should be such a thing in our time or in the future? Do you think it did you think it is?

00:42:44--> 00:43:18

inconceivable? I say that most liberal I know I know what you think I know what you what you suggest. But do you think it is absolutely wrong? inconceivable. That apostates no matter what kind of apostates, they are sure I haven't used the word inconceivable because inconceivable means not possible. Right. So I'm just going to put some blame on it means not possible. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm not saying I'm not making an argument from conceivability. This is not I'm saying I'm just saying I'm making a policy recommendation for Muslim majority countries. And I've made that it's just a recommendation. No, it's a recommendation based on the actions of the Prophet. That but

00:43:18--> 00:43:22

that's all it is. So you still in the end, in the end,

00:43:23--> 00:43:59

looking at the Islamic adoption, for example, the consensus is that the right thing to do is to push apostates, public apostates apart, if you are but so therefore, there is not there is not No, that is not part of that is not part of the point. My point is majority of people, for example, come together and think that the appropriate punishment for apostasy, public apostasy would be death. So if people now come together and established such a state, and they said this is the ruling that we should apply. Sorry, Mohammed to job, your suggestion is very nice. But we cannot do that. Because we agree to this. Do you think that is okay. I've had conversations with policy officials in

00:43:59--> 00:44:37

countries like Malaysia. And I've actually had the chance to influence their spokespeople. And I've given I've given them I've given them these kinds of recommendations because as you know, Brunei is a country that is nearby. And they look at that for us as an example because we're talking about Muslims enough so that really what we're talking about what is in the common interest and what's not in the common interest. And this is something which many people like yourself there and on the other hand as well, Muslims, they don't understand and I'm trying to try and educate everyone hear that actually Brunei when they when they attempted to put a full fledged hotdoodle was what what happened

00:44:37--> 00:44:43

to them as a country that they were under attack from all spheres and they're too small to defend themselves. So how can they

00:44:44--> 00:44:59

be a Muslim country? How can they do as much as they can do within the scope of the International Yani the walkout within the international environment, whilst at the same time being faithful to their Islamic position, I'm giving them a very

00:45:00--> 00:45:33

reasonable and practical solution. I'm giving people in countries like Brunei. What do you do with what would you do with countries like Brunei when you have apostates in Brunei? If they're trying to kill it imagine trying to kill a public apostate in Brunei? I mean, just think about that for a second. What would you think America would do? I think they would actually, I think they would threaten invasion. I believe that, of course. Yeah. For that reason, I I don't think that it's within anybody's interest. And what I'm saying is that the fifth Look, this is what I want people to understand. Islamic jurisprudence is white. Okay, it's not black and white. It really is not black

00:45:33--> 00:45:58

and white. I'm a traditionalist, you know, that I'm a traditionalist. I'm not scared to tell you the most severe view of everything. But what I'm saying is within Look, I was even taming student, I mean, even Tamia was very traditionalist. If you like, I'm a traditionalist, I'm telling you that this is fully in line, I want to confirm that what I'm saying is fully in line, but what I want people to understand this conversation about apostasy. Now, I think we've done and dusted with it if this is your strongest argument,

00:46:00--> 00:46:03

not an argument. Look, even if you open

00:46:06--> 00:46:16

it up, tell me what, what's your biggest objection against this? So, this is no, this is not what I presented, we came to this topic, because they kept us they kept asking me about routing, which was

00:46:18--> 00:46:23

so what is it is it is it is not done? It is not done? I have to remark something. So

00:46:24--> 00:46:36

we talked about this for 1520 minutes. And the entire talk was about how relocating people was a recommendation that it's a that is in line with opinion with traditionalist Muslim opinion.

00:46:38--> 00:46:46

Prophet, okay, in line with it, but but that this is just one of the options that you would recommend this because you would consider this beneficial? Yeah.

00:46:47--> 00:47:05

Because it's just one of the one of the options was the issue one of the whereas one of the other options is also that I should be put to death, for example. Well, my argument is this my argument, is that classic No, please, please, let's not trivialize these issues, stop making yourself the victim because I am making myself the victim I am in no danger mama to jump in. Absolutely. No.

00:47:07--> 00:47:08

I can I can do whatever.

00:47:09--> 00:47:10

Give me my reassurance.

00:47:12--> 00:47:29

I don't think you're a public threat. I don't think you're an intellectual threat. I don't think you're a physical threat. I don't think it makes sense for anybody to try and threaten you physically. I'm in no danger. This is not about me. This is not about me. I'm not saying that we should be killing you. So one thing now look, at the end, it's just a recommendation. That's it. We're done with the topic?

00:47:34--> 00:47:59

Isn't it? Well, I'm saying to you another. Islam, you have to understand this is a branch, okay, Hadoop and penal laws and so on is a branch of Islam. But really, we have to understand what the foundations are the foundations of Islam is to hate is the idea of one god worthy of worship, that we believe that the Creator God, right, and the fact that we believe the Prophet is the final messenger, that when you come to that conclusion, okay, then things that you might otherwise feel,

00:48:01--> 00:48:18

you know, unworthy or aesthetically pleasing and so on, will start to become more sensitively. You see, so you have to start with the roots. So what we can we can we can come to that we can come to that. You've given me one question, and I've I can come to that just the opening topic. Most of us want to start with,

00:48:20--> 00:48:29

hey, respectful No, you have not let me speak at all for not even once. I haven't said a word for the last, like 15 minutes, we let you speak.

00:48:31--> 00:48:33

You have no argument. We

00:48:35--> 00:48:46

argued at the beginning that it is absolutely inconceivable and completely wrong to kill people for their beliefs. And this is completely not Islamic. Whereas I don't know if you can follow i don't i don't think you're able to follow. Follow 10% of what I've said, but

00:48:52--> 00:48:54

you've given me one question. I think that's fair.

00:48:57--> 00:48:58

Let me speak on the

00:48:59--> 00:49:01

title of Mohammed hijab or Adam and

00:49:04--> 00:49:05

he should have a

00:49:07--> 00:49:16

look, look, we're giving you the floor. What we're saying is Islam. Look, you have to understand Islam from the beginning. Islam is a religion I want I will not argue theology without

00:49:18--> 00:49:22

arguing it's we're talking here. It's not like I will not I want to talk about theology here.

00:49:25--> 00:49:32

I mean, if it is theology, just basic theology, I made a very clear offer to you. I said, if you want to exchange opinions on whether it's like,

00:49:34--> 00:49:36

oh, man, why don't you just let me speak?

00:49:39--> 00:49:50

You just keep saying this. Oh, this talking right here. I made I made you I made you an offer. If you want to talk about whether Islam is the truth or not. Then we can unite and talk, talk on a third party.

00:49:52--> 00:49:53

You want to say

00:49:55--> 00:49:59

then we can we can talk on a platform where none of us is in charge where nobody can

00:50:00--> 00:50:10

interrupt each other like this, so that we can so that we can freely talk about why you think Islam is the truth. And why I don't think Islam is the truth. Well, there's no need to go through all of that.

00:50:11--> 00:50:18

Why not? Why not? That is the most. That is the fairest, that is the fairest, most professional way to have a debate. This is a big platform

00:50:20--> 00:50:24

for debate with me, I guess probably one of the biggest Muslim YouTubers out there.

00:50:26--> 00:50:29

Right now, there's no anywhere else. There's no.

00:50:31--> 00:50:34

This is the fourth time that you're refusing to have a debate with me. No.

00:50:37--> 00:50:38

Debate waiting for him.

00:50:41--> 00:50:42

I made it very clear of I will not

00:50:44--> 00:50:50

just have a discussion. This is no, I am grandstanding. Because you have been writing. You're acting very scared. I'm scared.

00:50:52--> 00:50:54

I'm scared of the topic. Oh,

00:50:56--> 00:51:02

make some false? No, it doesn't make it false. Of course, it does. prove a point. I'll tell you the truth. I don't think I'm scared.

00:51:07--> 00:51:24

I think you are okay. But I think you're right. I don't think I'm scared. It doesn't matter. Because that's the scary one hasn't said his argument though. You didn't see your argument agement. You know, it scared me. It doesn't make it doesn't make Islam false. But that is the entire point we should be able to come together and properly have a fair debate on whether Islamic

00:51:26--> 00:51:41

discussion now we're having a discussion. So all I'm saying is, look, I'll be very straightforward with you. There's four things I'll say about Islam being the truth, I'm not even going to go through maybe three things yet for the sake of it. We say number one, the argument from God to hate, we say that there's only one God Wait.

00:51:43--> 00:51:59

I'll put it to you. Now, there will be people there will be people people watching this stream, because I am here who will not watch the stream. What is happening here is that by not letting me speak and only use speech, you will clearly make it look like you are making a big point that I cannot make a point.

00:52:00--> 00:52:06

Because you do not because it was right. So you cannot you cannot you cannot affect me into a conversation.

00:52:10--> 00:52:10


00:52:13--> 00:52:16

deliberately said, I deliberately said

00:52:21--> 00:52:54

Islam makes a case for itself. Okay, it makes a case for itself. We say that there's only one God worthy of worship, that all conceptions of God other than the Islamic ones. If you look at the six major world religions are actually incompatible with logic and incompatible with the predisposition, number one, number two, we say that look, the Quran itself has falsification challenges, it actually says if there's any, if you if you believe that this book is from other than God, then please try and find out Oh, you found that many contradictions they want you to 50 left and zero. So there's many of them there to try and find contradictions in the Quran. I falsified the Quran

00:52:55--> 00:53:12

that's fine, the inevitability just to try and produce something like the Quran, which means that it has to go within the scope of it has to do exactly what the Quran has done, which includes, by the way, telling the future because the Quran speaks explicitly about a future events like chapter 30, verses one to six.

00:53:14--> 00:53:51

Yes, in many other places of the Quran like chapter 24 verse verses 55 and onwards. It Yes, it is explicitly about future events. And it does so accurately even according to Western philosophers as a scientific mistake, I'm saying to you is if number one, you said that you found contradictions in it. So my challenge to you now is to try and find a contribution. Do you think the stars do you think the stars are missiles thrown at devils, for example? Well, Chapter 67, verse five, and you know where it says, Well, hodza youngness dunya b masabi. Howard john know how to do manly shopping. First of all, it says, you know, this, if this is your strongest argument, let me answer it.

00:53:52--> 00:53:52


00:53:54--> 00:53:55


00:53:56--> 00:53:58

I'm throwing, I'm throwing rocks at you, I want you to answer this

00:54:00--> 00:54:42

problem with john room and Michelle, which is a nice summary doing Sudoku answers in chapter 60 I think verse three or 467 sorry, 567 five, I believe, yeah. 675 Well, I'd say in the summer, it dhania be masabi We have certainly adorned the heavenly realm with with stars, which I'll know how to do man, the Shelton and we have made it a pelting thing for the devils. Now what is first of all must be so there's a difference of opinion some they say is meteorite, some they say stars and says Rudra Malaysia and we have made it as a pelting things for the for the devils. So it's saying that devils because if you look at chapter 37 of the Quran, and other parts in the very first five

00:54:42--> 00:55:00

chapters, versus sorry, you'll find that the Semitic dunya or the the heavenly realm is adorned with stars with has many functionalities of them to try and find your way as the Quran says of them. So it can go round and obits as the Quran says and by the way, the Quran says in chapter

00:55:00--> 00:55:06

25 that there are many sons because it says Kabbalah can lead to jolliffe is semi Buru, Jen.

00:55:07--> 00:55:22

porn. What does it say that? Yeah It says in chapter 25 Tabata can lead the jolliffe is Samadhi boru jen ozada sujan monniera there's two cannot cannot assess Raja monito and surgeon monniera. So

00:55:24--> 00:55:45

I can't remember the verse here but this you can just check it after 25 chapters 25 is most definitely untrue. I've just quoted in the Arabic You can do it most definitely untrue. I've just told you in Arabic, because I don't know the verse number. I'm sorry, I don't know the verse numbers of I haven't memorized the verse numbers. I've memorized the Arabic. So it's about I can let the geography summary, boo general Java.

00:55:47--> 00:56:26

There's two colors. One of them is CLR monniera. And there's another one soldier, soldier Miriam is a shining lamp and soldier Mira means many stars. So shining light means a star. And so many sons, one son and many sons. So in other words, the Quran says that there are many sons. The cosmic picture of the Quran, therefore, is that there are many sons many solar systems because suns are accompanied with solar systems, and that they have many functionalities of them. There is a metaphysical thing which we can't see which is that the poor are that the the stars of the celestial spheres, they actually pelt the devils or the or the jinn. Because we believe in this, the this

00:56:26--> 00:56:37

creation called the jinn molecule General intalere abdon. We haven't created the jinn in the human being except the worship. So these celestial bodies actually felt them was how can you falsify that I don't see the issue. But

00:56:39--> 00:56:47

something which is seen as the cosmological picture of the Quran is not something which I would say is out of line with 21st century understandings

00:56:49--> 00:56:59

Have not you have not given me any, any any proof it is a very big claim to claim that that the Quran actually describes many sons or many stars. You said

00:57:04--> 00:57:06

to me, give me a coffee product. Maybe

00:57:08--> 00:57:14

I'll get it No, it's alright. Let me just get a few now that but you remember in the English they want these two colors? Yeah, Tabarak

00:57:15--> 00:57:16

and levy.

00:57:17--> 00:57:23

jhala. So one second, just America, but this is us.

00:57:24--> 00:57:24

He just said

00:57:25--> 00:58:02

61 chapter five, verse 61. So there's two colors. There's one color always though, glory to the one who has made in the star sky stars. Yeah. And has made in it many sons, one young son, your son, like the sun and the moon. So made many sons and the Quran, you know, here's my understanding of the Quran the cosmology, you can interpret this as an outrageous This is an outrageous claim every Tafseer that I'm looking at and including the modern and old translations tell us that there are many constellations or stars in the sky in that there's also a line a lamp. It says, hey, look, you have a lamp and an illuminating moon which refers to the sun and the moon. This is

00:58:04--> 00:58:07

ridiculous. Because it here Look, I can read it to you if you want. It says

00:58:09--> 00:58:29

it's a list of seer borusan which Allah Fie has Sirajuddin Yeah, falafel Porat, a Piero at delic Apollo two is a lot of time to Cora and Medina will Buster rajala Fie hat CLR gem. So there's one way of saying it just said Arjun Allah, a tail heat. So that means one son, this is what somebody's saying.

00:58:30--> 00:58:31

And the other one say,

00:58:33--> 00:58:59

soldier. Yeah, we'll come in ammonia, which means many suns. That's what somebody says. Well, you can't actually stop it because in Arabic, so it's not in English. But the point I'm making is that the cosmological picture in the Quran is one which can be in line with seventh century Arabian scientists, if you want to call it the unscientific understanding, but it cannot also be and this is one of the arguments and other argument, it can actually also be in line with 21st century understandings of client's

00:59:00--> 00:59:20

problem. It can not be the general the general understanding of this office Coronavirus for example, even according to the to the to the Tafseer to the most renowned tipsy, which is in Casio and all the translations that we have clearly says that this is speaking about quantum constellations, entities and there is a lamp and luminous Lux, which which in other parts of the Quran is

00:59:21--> 00:59:25

English is the promise repeated numerous times it refers to the sun and the moon. So

00:59:27--> 00:59:59

two ways of reading it, one of them is like that. You're right. No, but there's another way of reading it, which is sudo Gen, so both of them are acceptable, and nobody says that. So, the cosmological pick once again, the cosmological picture in the Quran and this is one of the arguments for Islam being true because let me give you an example right? You know, the Quran says, You COVID layline on the whole recording high level Sahara chumps will come up kulu kulu naturally edgerly Musa chapter 30 559 verse five, where it says that he makes the you know, he talks about the the sun the moon, and that will you call with you the cold

01:00:00--> 01:00:35

COVID here means that he rolls the night into the day and he rolls and the night into the day into the night, even has him. And by the way, the seller, because there's a guy called even whenever we're not the who, whose tagline he says this shows that the earth is round. Okay, this shows that the earth is round, because tech weird is when you wrap the night and the day around each other. Now, one easy argument I can make is the Quran according to the self, the early generations, the companions and those who came after them, according to those people, and even told me I actually have the Senate, which is an apostle, even in moneda believe that the earth is round. Now there are

01:00:35--> 01:00:47

some people who say the earth is flat. There are some scholars who say that, but there are there are the some of the awesome scholars from the early generations who say that the earth is round, whereas if you look, there are many among them will say that.

01:00:49--> 01:00:52

Yeah, I agree. I agree. Well, why don't we do this little selective fee? So I

01:00:53--> 01:01:13

agreed. I agree with you that Yeah, I do. I do not point out that this is the that Muslims all agreed that the Earth was flat, and that this is what we should say for his argument. The argument is that you're right, that there are some Muslim scholars in the past who have said the earth is flat. But there are some who use the Quran to show that the US is wrong. Now

01:01:14--> 01:01:15

use the Quran to

01:01:16--> 01:01:25

also use the generations from the early generations. What was also the sort of like who I cannot memorize names, but

01:01:28--> 01:01:30

I don't think there's anyone from the self that says that the earth is flat, okay.

01:01:34--> 01:02:02

According to have been telling me actually they've been telling me it has a fatwa on this and cable option is much more to the patella. And he says in it that this is Matt, there's a consensus among the scholars that the earth is round, and maybe even hasm says that everyone else has that. Many of you said even taymiyah Yes, even to me, but he was in a time where it was pretty clear to us what's what's around? Yeah, I don't think the Greeks knew that the earth was round. The Greeks knew it. I mean, I'm not trying to make an argument from that. He even told me it was an eighth century or whatever 728

01:02:04--> 01:02:34

we're talking about the Greeks knew it. I'm not saying that. I'm saying that. Look, if you look at the Bible, the Old Testament corpus, there's there's never been a patristic scholar, for example, an early church father, who has said the earth is round, because of what's written in the Bible, they always write they always refer to the Greeks like Aristotelian logic, whereas in the court, whereas the commentary the exegetical commentary in the Quran, allows there to be an interpretation which says that the earth is round. Yes. And

01:02:35--> 01:03:09

that comes from the Quran rather than from Greek sources. The point is I'm making is that the Quran is compatible with seventh century understandings of cosmology, but it's also compatible with 21st century understanding quantum and both of them, you can find exegetical precedent for that. So for example, when you're looking at many sons, many constellations that the earth is round, you can find commentaries that go all the way back to the setup, you can find the commentaries that talk about the expanding universe all the way back to the cellar. All of these are afforded from the patristic sources about the Old Testament for example. So yeah, look at this, look at this. Estimate the

01:03:09--> 01:03:26

patristic sources Yep, look at this we have with many Quran verses I in fact made a made a compilation of this, many Quran verses which was on a plane reading indicated that the earth is flat, that the sun travels over the Earth to the Moon follows to Earth. The Quran even explicitly literally says that the moon follows the earth, for example,

01:03:28--> 01:03:42

if you if you read these on a plane reading, if you read the entire ground on the plane reading, and you don't have any idea about the universe, about what actually what things actually look like, you would clearly understand that that our world is a a flat a plane,

01:03:43--> 01:03:59

upon which the above which there is there is a ceiling, we have a crack, which is being held up by things. It could be very easy, for example, for the Quran to give us a revolutionary information, and to say and to talk about space, which is not mentioned in the Quran, talking about galaxies, which is not mentioned to talk about different

01:04:00--> 01:04:37

systems, or the universe, for example, we found out only within the last few centuries, I understand but what what is the argument I'm making is not that the Quran says things scientifically, which were not known at the time and so on and so forth. I actually say that there are many things about the Quran that were known before in Greek times, and so on. My argument is sorry, I'm just my argument is, in fact, this my argument is that the Quran is compatible with seventh century understandings of science or cosmology, but it's also has the unique, multi dimensional compatibility with 21st understandings. And that's not despite an ice Jesus is because of the next

01:04:37--> 01:05:00

Jesus. So what I'm saying to you is this is that, this, look at the Bible, if you look at the Bible, for example, there's nothing to indicate that the earth is round in the Bible from the from the clay verses, you can say if you wanted to, if you wanted to say that the earth is that there are scholars, there was people from the center from the early generations before way before telescopes were invented in Islam that said that the earth was round.

01:05:00--> 01:05:36

And they did that despite the cosmological evidences, they use traps of the plan like even hasn't actually using his keytab fizzle. He used chapter 39 verse five as a reason to to, to suggest that he was wrong. Now that's unique to the Quran that it has the capacity to align itself cosmologically with a seventh century understanding, and with a 21st century understanding, you see, so this is an argument I'm making that not Oh, it didn't know things from this is not exactly an argument. I'm making an argument of the fact that the Quran the cosmology of the Quran, is a cosmology, which is compatible, not only with the seventh century, but can be compatible with Genesis. I'm not saying

01:05:36--> 01:06:15

that there's no way. Yes, sorry, these people keep calling me I really don't know why they keep calling me like that. Sorry. I know. Yeah. But what I'm saying so you understand the point here, so. So these are arguments, prophecies or something else, like the Prophet Mohammed, we say, he made explicit prophecies about the future. He told us in many hobbies where Islam was spread. He told us Islam will spread to Egypt. He told us Islam will spread to India, he told us Islam was spread to a single Hindu Indian was now Pakistan. He told us it will spread to your country in Turkey, that the Arabs will fight the Turks. He told us that though, in order to sit and wait a side, count six

01:06:15--> 01:06:56

things between the hour, one of them is Moti Samatha, tbaytel Noctis, that Jerusalem was, Islam is going to enter Jerusalem, which is a place which is the crown jewel of the Roman Empire, Islam predicted the demise of the Roman Empire, Islam predicted the demise of the Persian Empire, Islam predicted the construction of very tall buildings. It's a total of a Boolean. Islam predicted the advent of sexually transmitted diseases, like aids in Korea, and so on. Islam predict makes predictions that I would argue and this is a challenge, that there's no religion on the face of the earth, that has been able to make so many challenges about the future, so many predictions about the

01:06:56--> 01:07:00

future and be so accurate in all of those predictions. The What I'm saying is a

01:07:01--> 01:07:03

contest that I would strongly contested.

01:07:04--> 01:07:20

Because I would I would like to I would like to first off respond to the to the science point. Yes, you are, of course, arguing that the Quran is not only compatible with its time when it comes to science, but also compatible with modern times like today when it comes to science. I would definitely disagree with that and

01:07:21--> 01:07:57

correct that articulation. I'm not saying that Islam has to be completely congruent with 21st century science, but I'm saying the why said is the cosmology of Islam, or the depicted cosmology in the Quran is something which can be harmonized with 21st understandings. Now there are things it's conceivable that Islam can sometimes go against science because science is not an enterprise, which is perfect, as you know, it's not an incorrigible enterprise, sometimes it will change and we know that there are many things which change in science is called paradigm shift, Thomas Kuhn, let me get back to the point that I would I would definitely say that the Quran can not be seen as compatible

01:07:57--> 01:08:25

with, with with the modern understanding of science, because there are many examples to that. Where the Quran for example, describes such mountains were put into the earth that along with the earth a bit that that is that Allah is holding up the sky, that a lost sense of rain from the sky that are lost and thunders from the sky, and so many more eyes and rain from the sky. Again, many so many more, more examples. Yeah. That is that is only the scientific part. You could argue forever. I have made a huge collect.

01:08:26--> 01:08:30

Can I just comment? No, no, you're moving on to you moved on to prophecies.

01:08:32--> 01:08:33

prophecies because you did mention a few points. I

01:08:34--> 01:09:16

know, you ended the talk of scientific just, just on the point on on both examples you gave see the examples that you gave one like for example med put on refers to you said lm Nigel optim you had algebra otedola Jana, you know, so and so on chapter 78 verses one to four, you know, it refers to the the the earth as a met, which is basically the Arabic word for my bed. Yeah, your resting place as a as a now but now the question is, can the Koran can it be interpreted? Can someone pluck out verses and make it interpreted to fit a flat earth model? I'm not saying no. But what I'm saying is that we have had early interpretations using the Quran, despite the cosmology that agreed that the

01:09:16--> 01:09:51

earth is round. And in fact, there's more vigor in that direction. So in other words, more people like as I've just said, You even munez from the cellar, he's caught by Ben Tamia and his cattle option of Mitch martyr for tower. And look, even has him he was 400 500 years after the Prophet, he was saying based on chapter 3539, verse five, that the earth is round. So the idea once again that the the mat that the earth is a method of bent is not something really, which is understood to indicate the shape of the earth, because a resting place a bed, it can be a cradle can be something which you basically put in any kind of shape, like you know, you cradle the baby in this way, and so

01:09:51--> 01:09:59

on. And if it was so clear, and it's the point if it was so clear, someone who's a strict scripture list, like a traditionalist like even Tamia and the seller,

01:10:00--> 01:10:10

They would not be saying that the earth is definitely I don't think that they have any authority over deciding what the Quran actually says because they live in a time in which it was only the only reasonable thing to agree that the earth is actually round

01:10:12--> 01:10:33

from the Prophet because even when you look at this but we look at this grace for example like chapter two verse 22 It is he who made for you the earth a bit and and the sky a ceiling Look Look at this. I'm talking about the context I'm not talking about this just describing the earth as a bed you could imply that it could mean something else he made for you the earth a bed and the sky the ceiling and sent down from the sky, right?

01:10:35--> 01:10:51

for you as an attribute, whatever to him, it further says in in following verses that Allah also put mountains into the earth. So yeah, so he imagined Yeah, so what's the problem? Right, it's not something that comes from the sky, the sky is not something solid, the sky.

01:10:53--> 01:11:07

The sky is only an appearance only something that we have that we saw the Arabic language Sorry, can I just correct you on something here? The sky they are a summer if you look at a lot of in the Arabic language according to even to actually all of the halloumi staff consultants.

01:11:08--> 01:11:11

It's a barrier according to the Quran into it's not according to

01:11:12--> 01:11:53

explain, I'll give you the reason I'll give you the references. According to the Santa hollub, which is one of the authoritative Colombes dictionaries of the Arabs, the sky whenever the word summit is used, it just means that which is above Okay, that which is above. Now the verse that you've mentioned chapter two verse 22. whole idea of election was Mr. Vina and lemonis Mr. Mr. Raja bohemian, a former Oculus con la consolata jolly and then went to that Allah moon. Yeah, this verse, actually, what the words philosophy once again, it just means an expanse. And once many people have explained this, the Word Art and this is the problem, the Word Art has more than one meaning the

01:11:53--> 01:12:03

Word Art which means here the earth has the meaning of the earth, the planet Earth, but it also has the meaning of the land. It has that which is below just like somehow is that which is above or below just means that which is below

01:12:05--> 01:12:07

me explain what this could also mean.

01:12:10--> 01:12:14

In chapter nine, verse five, I would like to give the average Muslim viewer just just one sitting close your

01:12:16--> 01:12:48

eyes and think about on charitable, they think about a you need to think about a scenario where you do not know what the earth and the universe looks like. Think about it, you're in a we're in a place and you don't know what anything looks like. You don't know anything about your insides and open this, this Quran. This is the first thing that you read, and you just read it and you only read the description of the earth in the book, what will you think the only the only the only conclusion that you can come to is that the earth is a flatbed. It has a ceiling on it, which cannot be cracked. That's actually been done. Okay. Like I'm telling you again, the thought experiment has actually

01:12:48--> 01:13:22

been done because even more now there is a tab right? Okay, which means the Prophet says hydrocodone, cognito, Latina, Latina, you know, the best generation is my generation, then the ones who follow them and then the ones who follow them. So there's three generations golden the golden generations have been worn out that is actually a part of the Golden generations meaning Eben moneda is a self he is part of the Golden generation. He is looking at the Quran he's not he doesn't have a telescope, he doesn't have any of these tools that you're talking about. And he says, according to we have a Senate that is a complete sentence, which says the earth is round. So it's not fair for

01:13:22--> 01:13:55

you to say this is what's gonna happen. I've got the evidence to the contrary, someone who lived 1300 years ago, looking at the Quran, because he's looking at you know, it looks at the verses that even hasn't mentioned chapter 13 and verse five, because you call wiro comes from the Arabic word Cora, Cora means ball. West as you call we live in the heart we call in the heart We call them you know, you guys are Yemeni as well, you know, yeah. Football. So when when when even husband who is a literalist to the highest degree, he says that the earth is round because as you call we're all right that the earth is round and this actually was your strongest argument. I think you'd want to

01:13:55--> 01:13:59

know if it was not it was not so what we're doing here. What we're doing here is that

01:14:00--> 01:14:06

did you put that in one of your videos number one, according to the Quran? I made a video on that I made a video on the

01:14:07--> 01:14:09

reason why you think Islam is wrong because

01:14:11--> 01:14:13

no, absolutely Wow. See the

01:14:15--> 01:14:17

number one reason so what is your number one reason

01:14:19--> 01:14:32

number one is but what we what we're doing here is that for 1000 tears, the most the most had no idea of, of the of the universe, the galaxies, the planetary systems, the sky and anything. We have, we have, we have gone through we have gone through many Islamic scholars,

01:14:33--> 01:14:38

ideas and many ideas that the earth is the center of everything that the sun

01:14:39--> 01:14:49

isn't even according to off to a hadith Mohammed says that the sun at night the sun goes to a resting place and it goes under the throne of Allied prostrate on the throne of our lines

01:14:50--> 01:14:59

to rise again and again in the morning and then it's given permission to rise in the morning, it comes back and rises and one day will not be given permission so it will go back into the

01:15:00--> 01:15:06

Yeah, yeah, in the West, which is inconceivable, the sun doesn't go anywhere the sun is just here at the center of a plane.

01:15:08--> 01:15:09

No, no, I'm talking about

01:15:11--> 01:15:22

the Muslim world, the Muslim more than the Muslim scholars had no idea how things look like we have now recently understood how things actually look at now we're selectively going back and choosing Islamic schools. And

01:15:23--> 01:15:32

the point here is what I'm giving you is evidence from the early generations. So you can't say well, we cannot we cannot just take evidence, you know, what do we do?

01:15:33--> 01:15:33

This, what

01:15:35--> 01:15:59

do we do? Let me speak this, this is why context is important. We cannot we cannot take selective scholars and their opinions at face value as single evidence that would you have said, for example, is entirely true. We could take we could take many sources, I have taken many, many sources, much piece of evidence from early scholars who have argued that the earth is definitely flush with

01:16:01--> 01:16:14

the universe. So what I'm saying is that look, the Quran says in chapter three, verse seven, right, I mean, imagine who normally shall be had families in a few blue beams even with a bone Mm hmm. And mean.

01:16:15--> 01:16:48

There are some of the books some of the book has more converses, which are very clear cut and other ones which are ambiguous, meaning the ones which are slightly ambiguous, which can have more than one interpretation. You can't say this, like I will say to you, just as I say to some Muslim apologists, some Muslim apologists say the Quran definitely says x y Zed, it says this, it says the expanding universe, the Big Bang, I'm saying, look, we can't be so sure to say that the Quran says that for sure. But at the same time, we can't say show. Sure, surely, the Quran says the earth is flat, I'm saying, if you want to have a scholarly opinion, you have to allow for both

01:16:48--> 01:17:05

interpretations to be allowed. What I'm saying is that we have evidence from the early generations that allow this interpretation. And we have evidence from the early generations which allow that interpretation. So those both interpretations are valid, we can't now find something which is something which is narrow because

01:17:08--> 01:17:17

know, some people have a pro Islamic agenda. No, I agree with that. I agree with everything you think the Quran is, you know, that it can be combined with today's scientific knowledge of the

01:17:20--> 01:17:57

way my point is that it can't be combined. All I'm saying is this. Sometimes the Quran will not combine with, with when we have different opinions, it is fine. So long as that so long as Islam allows, so long as Islam allows for a multiplicity of interpretations within the scope of extra Jesus, you can't say this is definitely what it means. Just like I would say to someone on the other side, you know that they are definitely sorry, the universe is definitely big bank because it says in chapter 21, verse 30, that are canada.com for photokina. Hello, gentlemen, the marriage may equal Shane, Hi, there, you're one piece, and then we clip them on Sunday, when there's a huge

01:17:57--> 01:18:29

misinterpretation of what Yeah, I'm not saying that it means a big bang, I'm saying that you can't say for sure. That's the big bang. In fact, saying for sure is the Big Bang is problematic, because then you're there's like four interpretations according to a theory and you're taking one of them and pressing it forward. What I'm saying is that allow the scope because when the cosmologists more changed their opinion on what the universe constitutes of, then we're going to go back to square one and try and read to interpret the font again, therefore, what I'm saying is that the font by and large, I'm not even saying fully, by enlarge, is harmonious with 21st cosmological understandings,

01:18:29--> 01:19:02

if you accept one of many opinions, it's not i'm not saying that it's definitely in all cases, I'm saying that Yeah, you can interpret the Quran if you like, in an unscientific way. You see, in the ways that you have but I'm what I refuse to accept is that that's the only way to interpret the Quran. And you can't say that it is because I've given you evidence to the contrary. So now, yeah, so yeah, now the challenge is as follows the challenges, as we say, we started off by saying the Quran has claims to be a preserved book, and I'm willing to defend that position. We talked about the prophecies, we talked about the fact that the Quran is multi dimensional in its understanding of

01:19:02--> 01:19:33

nature. We talked about the fact that there's no contradiction. So the challenge now is for you as a one of the leading anti muslim polemics is to combine contradictions within the Quran, okay, which are very clear and unresolvable from a logical perspective, or otherwise, to show that there has been a prophecy that was made by the prophet of Islam or the Quran, that, in fact, did not materialize that the prophet or Islam said this will happen. And the opposite thing happened, for example, that these are falsified.

01:19:34--> 01:19:34


01:19:36--> 01:19:46

Sorry, religiously disproving implications, you have to prove you have to provide evidence, something that shows that this religion is wrong right now. All you've shown is definitely, definitely

01:19:48--> 01:19:52

standing of the scope of interpretation and Islamic exegesis. And

01:19:53--> 01:19:59

so we have just agreed that we can have different opinions on these things because you can interpret interpret things differently but you have

01:20:00--> 01:20:09

I've even accepted that your opinion and your interpretation may be true. But you have to reject the rule that my opinion and my interpretation is definitely wrong and that it is just not

01:20:11--> 01:20:36

can be true as well, in terms of the unscientific stuff. You just just said it was wrong. I don't know why I said was, if you want to say that the earth is flat, you're not going to be a disbeliever in Islam. Because if you say the US if you want to be a flat earthers Muslim, it's not a point of potpie you're disbeliever. That's my view. But I think the Quran says the earth is flat. Yeah, if I if you think that's fine, that's absolutely fine. But you can't say that that's exactly what everyone I don't I don't.

01:20:38--> 01:20:54

Early authorities, the earliest sorry, before the cosmological age before the scientific revolution, before the Copernican revolution, before all of that all of the positions that we have in science on a cosmological level now can be represented, I'm telling you can be represented, earliest slam.

01:20:55--> 01:20:56

I agree with it.

01:20:57--> 01:21:01

Fantastic, it's fantastic. I find it fantastic that you have agreed that this is

01:21:04--> 01:21:13

what you're going to do now? No, I would, I would, I would, I would appreciate it. If you also refer to me as one of the as one of the biggest islamophobes I would really appreciate that, because you have recently given the title

01:21:14--> 01:21:53

leading image online. That's actually very good. I appreciate that. I mean, you know, what, you know what, I actually appreciate this very much, Mohammed to job, I think this has been a very fruitful and productive conversation so far. And I think this is this is fantastic. We could have, we could have done this, you have allowed me to give you some to give you some information to give you some knowledge on the Quran to to further your knowledge and your understanding of Islam to give you some education on this topic. And I would I would think i think i would appreciate it actually considering that we are able to have such a conversation such a back and forth in such a common good

01:21:53--> 01:22:28

way that we could come together and have an actual debate. So which which is why I actually think what do you think about having a debate? I I regard debates as a beautiful thing. I have debates on a weekly basis I used to go to a speaker's corner all the time. I've had seven formal debates you know usually to be honest with you I've now reserved my debating for someone who is qualified in the in the in the in the in the subject matter. Unfortunately, you don't meet the criteria, but I did make exception for you. Haven't you told me in person, but it has to be but I don't believe that you're the a site. I believe that we have more to offer you than you have to offer us we have

01:22:30--> 01:22:30


01:22:32--> 01:22:48

at the end of the day if I wanted to fight and gun and UFC Yeah. And I'm saying you're a coward and gun You're a coward. How is he a coward or stpm your church? I want to fight you the heavyweight champion UFC, your coward if you don't he's not a coward. He's proven his work. He's got different different areas.

01:22:49--> 01:22:56

coming to me, you'll come up to me I'm the a site. I've got the I've got the gold. I've got the I've got the qualification. I personally think

01:22:58--> 01:23:35

I've memorized the Quran, you got it, I've done. It doesn't matter. I know people who have done I know people who have memorized the Quran, you haven't done. You have to allow me You have to allow me and by the way, one to seven real Quran is still weekend stuff. And there's still bits I have to recite to this year. So I have to be clear. But still having said that here, what I'm saying is, I have done the training. You got it. I've been through 10 years of extensive training. So once again, I'm offering food and you know doing your thing and enjoying your time and whatever it is do. Yeah, and watching TV and Netflix. I've had to memorize stuff. I've had to read books. I was I was in a

01:23:35--> 01:24:03

dark room reading stuff I've had to read I can brag about my I can brag about my knowledge here To be fair, it's not fair that you're calling me the guy that has to come to you rollin you're the guy that you're not coming to me we are doing something modern. So last time, any time come we will pay for your ticket. No problemo. Yeah, we are in a modern debate. I like if you want a debate, a formal debate. I don't like online debates. You got it? I'm a big

01:24:05--> 01:24:20

mistake. Why don't you like online debates? I don't like him because for me when it comes to the base, I like to actually get involved in the actions you get like two to three body language is a big thing. Right now as the audience that is exactly why I don't ever want to have a personal debate with you because I want to

01:24:22--> 01:24:37

I want to focus on the knowledge engage the audience, I like to keep it as free hours. You know, for me my channel my youtube channel is a film channel I don't even know why but you know, I realized why? Because I engage people. If I speak in a monotone way and the way we're doing it online, people

01:24:39--> 01:24:45

like David would debate that I'd done this on 2 million views and people watch it to the end demand three hours, this

01:24:46--> 01:25:00

way 1 million views. When I'm on stage with the David Wood I'm engaging This is me and putting my soul into it my passion into it my body language into it. Like we haven't debated for the last 1 million views. If I wanted to be I have to

01:25:00--> 01:25:04

put everything into it. You got it like I see what I'm saying. He comes down to London we come

01:25:07--> 01:25:07


01:25:09--> 01:25:28

on the face of the earth. Let me tell you this, I'll make it clear. Any challenges me in any way? Any islamophobe and I'm not going to retract this. It challenges me in any way unless I'm physically injured or incapable. Yeah. If they challenged me conversationally physically in a ring in the in the in on the stage opposite. I'm dead, I get knocked out and dead

01:25:30--> 01:25:41

and gone. And Francis ngannou if Francis in Ghana tomorrow decided to be and just told me that I shouldn't be trusting you who told me that I shouldn't trust you? Why should I trust you? Why should I come down?

01:25:45--> 01:25:47

I felt like I should

01:25:49--> 01:25:54

actually look forward to it. If it wasn't for my mom and my sister, my, my family and so on. I have to look for

01:25:55--> 01:26:10

it, you got it. It's a way of testing life. I'd love to make it easier. I'm looking forward to that. I don't care about these things. Saying that doesn't make it easy. If you get it well, I'm a Muslim. I'm a Muslim Bravo.

01:26:11--> 01:26:41

I am a Muslim, so I can I believe in hereafter. I believe in the Day of Judgment. I've been in the Hellfire I believe in heaven. I actually believe in those things, which I believe turning is pretty ridiculous. People are gonna live in the Hellfire Cracow in there, I believe that some people are gonna be in heaven, another live death, you know, eternal life. You will live a life without any purpose and you might live in the tournament, you will live in eternal life doing nothing at all purpose of this life in eternity.

01:26:43--> 01:27:07

Millions of years on Earth was completely for was completely empty for nothing. Everything that we have done in the on the earth, everything that we have done in history, everything that we've built, all the civilizations all the knowledge will all be gone, it will be all for nothing. And all the only thing there is is that we will is that we will die and go to heaven and live without purpose ever, ever. Does that have our whatever it is out?

01:27:08--> 01:27:11

evidence? Look, what you have is evidence I'm showing you that.

01:27:13--> 01:27:31

I'm telling you that we should we should debate that comes from Allah, how do we prove it? The Quran is cosmologically coherent with the seventh century and 21st we're saying that has no contradictions were preserved. I'm willing to defend these positions right now. I don't need to go nowhere.

01:27:32--> 01:27:34

I would love to have debate with you.

01:27:38--> 01:27:38

I know.

01:27:40--> 01:27:54

You're throwing things at me. I'm saying look, I'm happy forever. You told me now your biggest evidence, we've seen your biggest evidences, but because you have it online, you have you said you got 100 reasons why you're number one because the earth is flat. I want you to stand up for me. Let me speak and the answer to me. porn

01:27:56--> 01:28:34

is flat. I said the Quran says you can relate on the heart. We're calling you, Cora. So how do you? I want you to I want you to stand there. I want you to stand there and listen to me for 15 minutes to my biggest evidence or to my three biggest pieces of evidence. And I want you and I want you to respond to me for you said online? I haven't. I have not no I have not. That's not true. I haven't I haven't said that. There's no evidence. There's no why not to be a Muslim? Yeah, you have a video like that. No, I have not. You do you count down you're counting down the video? No, no, I don't I don't I have a video called 10 reasons to reject Islam for example. But but that is that is not

01:28:34--> 01:28:42

about rejecting Islam. Somewhat science and the end you said that number one is because the earth is flat. That is 60 sites. That is specifically about the 60s.

01:28:44--> 01:28:44


01:28:46--> 01:28:54

We dealt with that? No, it's not. It's not. I didn't I didn't number one. It was it wasn't ranked. It was simply counted. It wasn't ranked according to what

01:28:57--> 01:29:00

you said the number one reason was No, I have not. I have not I have not.

01:29:03--> 01:29:22

I have three main different three main reasons why Islam is definitely not true. Yeah, and I will demonstrate them to you and you will not be able to justify your beliefs and try it for 1400 years. Okay, look for answers. And they have predictions in it trying this diet is dying people out people are leaving Islam.

01:29:23--> 01:29:36

There's gonna be one. There's gonna be Muslim at 190 9.7% because of birth rates in general, the youngest of Muslims, a big chunk 3% because of conversion 0.3% that means 3000 people.

01:29:37--> 01:29:54

That because people sorry, yes. 2020 to 2050. Apparently, there's been 4 million converts. But you know, we deal with content. According to Pew Research, you know, from what I've seen, from what I saw pre research also said that the number of people leaving Islam and the number of people joining Islam is the same

01:29:55--> 01:29:57

and know the world and

01:29:58--> 01:30:00

saving the world man because otherwise there would not be a net

01:30:00--> 01:30:27

inflow, you know, according to the according to the research and mistakes, explained, mostly explained why Islam is growing this, they're saying that the article you're talking about now so I've written this in my book as well, it's in the book node. And they are and they're what what what they're showing is that as many people convert to Islam as people. And the issue and the issue here is that the vast majority of people, or people who convert to Islam do it publicly because the vast majority of people who leave Islam? Well,

01:30:28--> 01:30:59

let me push back on that you see, a pew research published a research and I think it was in 2017, or 18. And they actually said that the amount and by the way, this is not an argument against Islam. Yeah. Anyways, let's go with it. And of course, it's not just let me just say it, let me just come back on it. So if you research said that the amount of the amount of conversion into Islam is the same as the amount of conversion outside of Islam, yeah, that was in the American context. And they had a methodology of 1000 people that they interviewed and interviewed them on the telephone. And the majority of people that they interviewed on the telephone, by the way, were actually non

01:30:59--> 01:31:13

speakers of the English language. And we see that in methodology. If you go to methodology in a Pew Research, you have to look at the they've got methodological forecasts, and they say that a lot of them actually she a, she, I came from, like, Shah,

01:31:14--> 01:31:42

Iran. And then when they came when they came to what do you call it a miracle? They couldn't speak English? No, already. They're already refugees. So it was a disproportionate number of shadow representing that study, Iranians that represented that study. And clearly, I used to think that as well, I used to mention that to the my congregation is that look, the amount of people that are leaving, I see him. But when I looked at the methodology, and when I actually published on this, because I actually published on this, and I've seen all of the basically the studies, the demographic studies, in a book that I've written called the scientific deceptions of the new

01:31:42--> 01:32:01

atheists, which is actually free of charge in the Sapiens Institute, you can get it for free. And all of those demographics are actually fluid. What we actually find, to be honest, is that there is more people coming into Islam in the West and our people live in. And that's pretty much a general rule. And I get it right here. It's not about America, its its general, its general, it's considered global it is from

01:32:03--> 01:32:05

2015. April,

01:32:06--> 01:32:41

projected growth between 2010 and 2020 to 2000 2015. You're getting it wrong. Good. You know why? Because if it was, again, if it was about all of the people in the world, yeah. If it was about all the people in the world, then what about America? How could that be a net inflow, because they looked at 2010 to 2050. And they said, there's going to be there was 3 million excess net inflow, gross 3 million converts. But by the way, from our experience, because we do what we do with converts all the time, from our experienced in house studies, we found that the majority of converts are actually private converts, just like when people leave privately.

01:32:43--> 01:32:44

Not true as most

01:32:45--> 01:32:50

was, what's your evidence? Because Because we see it, we don't need evidence for that. You don't need evidence for something that is so obvious.

01:32:53--> 01:32:57

The vast majority of people who leave Islam Do it, do it privately. They don't do it publicly, because they're scared.

01:32:59--> 01:33:06

I know, I know, many people who do private including in Muslim countries, they have to, they have to have it on their on their ID cards for

01:33:07--> 01:33:42

people who convert, because they're a part of a culture dominant culture, which is to say, Christian, it's not how we know it's true from the British context. How do you know it? Yeah, because there was a study that was done. It's also in my book in the bibliography you can find there was they looked at census data, because in England in the UK, you have census day, every 10 years. One of the best, it's like the demographic gold standard. So we looked at census data 2001 2011 2021 2000. We haven't done 2021 yet. Yeah. But they looked at 2001 2011. I think they looked at 91, as well. Yeah. So this in that period of time, they found a look at the amount of

01:33:42--> 01:34:02

people that identifying the census as Muslim. And so they, when they turn the numbers together, they found that actually, yeah, the numbers were one thing, but when they did small scale sociological studies, they right, they found that converts were less likely to tell their family members and therefore right in the census data that they're Muslim, therefore, likely.

01:34:04--> 01:34:23

They are, it's usually a house, the leader of the household is writing it down. So they'll write down or if their kid has, like a 16 year old in their families become Muslim, they don't know why they're gonna write Christian because they don't know this guy's become Muslim. We know. Like, I could say, I could say people who are less likely to go to the gym. That doesn't mean

01:34:24--> 01:34:44

it's a dark area. We don't exactly know the numbers. Exactly. But, you know, I, you know, you know, I would say people who smoke are less likely to go to the gym. That doesn't mean that people who smoke generally don't go to the gym, or that the vast majority of them don't go. It just, it may just mean that's 2% more of people who smoke, don't go to the gym. But what we're seeing

01:34:47--> 01:34:57

is this knowledge because you're talking about correlation versus causation. We're not talking about that. We're talking act, that when conflicts become when people come, they also quiet about it just like when they leave Islam, the quiet about what we're doing

01:34:59--> 01:34:59

for them

01:35:00--> 01:35:10

We don't have any substantial evidence for the damages. Before there was there was good evidence from refer to my book for that. If you like, Fine, let's let's leave it. Let's leave it that way. All right.

01:35:11--> 01:35:13

Before we leave it, I just want to say something. Okay.

01:35:14--> 01:35:33

I would like to I would like to reiterate, I would like to reiterate, reiterate, reiterate the one thing I was, I challenged you to give you I challenge I challenge you to discuss I think audience of Muslim people. This is one of the biggest youtubers Muslim youtubers on the net, you're not going to get an opportunity like this again, believe me your opportunity.

01:35:37--> 01:35:38

You're one of the biggest

01:35:40--> 01:35:51

the biggest Muslim podcasts in the world we have most of most of our viewers are Muslim. And in this podcast, we are the biggest podcast. I would like to I would like to reiterate what I said before.

01:35:53--> 01:36:05

But I think it would be a unique thing. I think it would be unique thing for, for the for the biggest, the biggest ex Muslim influencer and the biggest Muslim apologists of our time to come together and to actually have a debate on the topic of

01:36:07--> 01:36:08

Islam, the truth.

01:36:10--> 01:36:20

I said ex Muslim is not an ex Muslim. So therefore the biggest ex Muslim and the biggest Muslim apologists to come together to have a debate on whether is the truth. So first

01:36:21--> 01:36:28

of all, I if you accepting the initial offer that you accepted, which is an online, I don't want to I don't want to

01:36:29--> 01:36:30

wait for the conversation.

01:36:32--> 01:36:47

So you have no conversation here talking to me about you have a conversation by having was having an online debate, no one sent you is this look, you have an opportunity. your your your goal in life is to try and show people that people Islam is false. You have an opportunity, we will use that opportunity once.

01:36:48--> 01:36:49

Even even one of us.

01:36:51--> 01:36:52

This isn't going away.

01:36:53--> 01:37:00

He already had his end of the day you asked a bunch of questions. Muhammad hijab answered a lot of your questions, and in a very great didn't answer anything.

01:37:02--> 01:37:05

You don't even know anything about Islam. You just said that at the beginning of our conversation.

01:37:07--> 01:37:11

You just openly said that you don't know anything about

01:37:13--> 01:37:15

where your credit was more.

01:37:19--> 01:37:19

I know what

01:37:24--> 01:37:26

I'm seeing how can you judge this when you

01:37:31--> 01:37:35

look at trading? I have no degrees. Yep. certificates.

01:37:38--> 01:37:44

Yes, yes. Yes, yes. Yes, yes, three certificates? Well, I could I could go I could.

01:37:46--> 01:37:51

I could I could currently I could pay $4,000 to get a certificate in Islamic Studies. And then I would be qualified to

01:37:54--> 01:37:55

you got to do 10 years.

01:37:58--> 01:38:04

Have you studied? Have you studied each of you four areas for 10 years? together? Not not? Of course not. Because

01:38:05--> 01:38:06

you have studied?

01:38:08--> 01:38:08

You have

01:38:10--> 01:38:24

you have studied some of them for just for just six months or nine months? I could apply for you're not getting this Have you not have you not object you have you know how, for a certificate look for certificates for each one.

01:38:26--> 01:38:30

For the ones like I don't know, political philosophy, look for the certificate. I'm talking

01:38:32--> 01:38:40

about degrees, like three years, two years, 111 year for another one, two years, and you can get a certificate in Islamic studies for one year, I could go and pay.

01:38:41--> 01:38:46

And would that mean I am now qualified to debate this seminar, we don't

01:38:49--> 01:38:50

have to go through Islamic seminary,

01:38:52--> 01:38:54

the seminar in Islam, then you can come back and talk

01:38:55--> 01:38:56

is the thing is, look.

01:38:58--> 01:39:01

I paid $4,000 $1,000

01:39:04--> 01:39:09

in Islamic Studies would I then be qualified to do but generally it comes up comes down to let me tell you something.

01:39:12--> 01:39:16

If I paid $4,000 and got a certification, oh, you gotta

01:39:17--> 01:39:17

you gotta do

01:39:20--> 01:39:20

what you love

01:39:21--> 01:39:22

to hear because that's always

01:39:23--> 01:39:29

you're not gonna go to a doctor and say, Well, what? Because you have all I've just been doing online videos not

01:39:31--> 01:39:40

because the guy has his qualifications, otherwise, you're not gonna go to that doctor. So why should we go to you for Islam? Why qualified in four areas, including having certificates of one year

01:39:42--> 01:39:43

in Islamic Studies,

01:39:44--> 01:39:50

I could talk about political, I could talk about history power, I could talk about comparative religions don't even understand freedom of speech.

01:39:51--> 01:39:59

Philosophy. Why? Because I've been through processes you haven't. You have you have the poorest understanding of moral philosophy that I've seen in my life, according to a lay man, you guys

01:40:01--> 01:40:05

I will do it doesn't matter whether I'm a lay man or not. I

01:40:09--> 01:40:14

said to him, Look, I don't care what you prescribe for me. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you what you should prescribe from

01:40:17--> 01:40:19

everybody's question. very brief question

01:40:21--> 01:40:23

for this, because you know what? here's here's the reality

01:40:25--> 01:40:25

on the public.

01:40:28--> 01:40:30

Since I've allowed you to ask me all the questions, do you think that

01:40:32--> 01:40:32


01:40:34--> 01:40:37

because I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in God, I have no morals and

01:40:46--> 01:40:51

even like you, I'm sorry for people like you a plus, I'm generally sorry. What do you do with your life?

01:40:52--> 01:40:54

Do you have an IQ of 8085?

01:40:56--> 01:40:57

out of one,

01:40:58--> 01:40:59

your loser.

01:41:00--> 01:41:02

One is not how IQ work. So

01:41:07--> 01:41:11

he's a creative. I am deeply sorry, if you insult me, I will insult you back.

01:41:17--> 01:41:21

I'm asking you a question. I don't care. I I have no muscles here. I have no muscle, I don't care.

01:41:28--> 01:41:49

I'm asking you a simple question. Because I do not believe in God. And because I am an atheist. Do you as somebody who claims to be an expert in philosophy? Do you think it is right to claim that I can have no morals? And that it is therefore for me completely indifferent? Whatever. Someone eating the poor, and you

01:41:50--> 01:41:51


01:41:52--> 01:41:55

Question as far as you have no morals.

01:41:57--> 01:41:57

But honestly,

01:41:58--> 01:42:04

I'm not saying that atheist cannot have morals. I was atheist. Well, you said that.

01:42:06--> 01:42:10

You said he doesn't believe. Let me tell you my answer.

01:42:13--> 01:42:14


01:42:16--> 01:42:53

I'm not saying that atheists that's never been what I said, I've never said I'm very careful, my articulations I never say that atheists can never cannot have morals. What I will say is that an atheist cannot have a claim to objective morality, which is different. Well, I'm saying this on an atheistic worldview. Yeah. You can't tell me anything. Morally. You can't tell me you should do this. And you shouldn't do this. Why? Because on atheism, you have no mechanism, which anchors morality expert. Yeah, yeah, I've done I've done the work you haven't. That's the difference. There's even even people like john Stuart Mill, we talk about liberalism. Yeah. They candidly tell

01:42:53--> 01:43:29

you there is no proof that can tell you objectively, in the book of your own utilitarianism, that there's no proof to show that this is objective morality. So what I'll say is that you can never make you can your major argument, a lot of your major arguments yourself, and many of the people like you against Islam is how is this and this is immoral? Isn't that what I'm saying to you? Is that morally speaking? Yeah. As an atheist, you have no Anchorage, meaning you cannot claim anything as objective. Otherwise, I'll say to you, look, give me a mechanism because you're on the record of saying that bcl is okay. You're on the record saying that I've never said that. I have. I have. I

01:43:29--> 01:43:39

have never said that. stlgs Okay. I've never even talked about this. Okay. You said instance. Okay. No, I have never said that. Either. You said that. You see, it says okay, I have never said that. Well, I've seen that.

01:43:42--> 01:43:43

I've seen what you wrote. We'll see.

01:43:46--> 01:43:55

I've said I've said to Allah Darwin he asked me Do you think it's okay for for the Father and the Son to have sex? I still wasn't no harm to society.

01:43:58--> 01:43:59


01:44:00--> 01:44:01

I said if the evidence

01:44:03--> 01:44:07

to the individuals in heading insists, then there would be no problem with it

01:44:09--> 01:44:29

is not reality because it's not but that is not reality, because going on into courts will have harm on the individuals and society which is why incest is not okay. And you clearly said objectively prove the principle okay. We could go a lengthy into the discussion. I know you said something.

01:44:33--> 01:44:36

prove the principle. No, I will not. You cannot.

01:44:39--> 01:44:40

I can I will

01:44:45--> 01:44:55

not pretend to be. I do not believe that there is no intrinsic objective morality. I don't believe you don't believe. I don't believe that there is inherent objective morality makes sense.

01:44:56--> 01:44:57

Objective money

01:44:59--> 01:44:59

do you understand for

01:45:00--> 01:45:00

If you adopt

01:45:02--> 01:45:24

morality, morality, there is morality on a descriptive level and on a on a on a level in which you prescribe it to society. I do not believe that intrinsically. There is objective morality in the world. I'm sorry, I don't understand that. So I cannot believe that a human who is who is born into the world. Yeah. has an objective has objective moral values. I do not believe that. Your

01:45:27--> 01:45:40

articulation slowed. Your articulation is flawed. Now, you know why? Because what you're saying is, I don't believe when a human being has morality is not possessive. In that sense. You're all over the place. You either

01:45:41--> 01:45:44

believe morality or you don't either.

01:45:45--> 01:45:48

Which one of the two are you? Are you subjectivist?

01:45:49--> 01:45:52

I do not. I do not agree. Let me say it in different words for you because

01:45:53--> 01:45:54

you don't understand English is

01:45:55--> 01:46:07

basically trial. Try it, use it. No articulation, none, we're trying to make me look like the person know your articulation. So now, in a proper way, and I would like to say

01:46:08--> 01:46:16

there is a difference between saying a society has intrinsic morality and the difference between saying that society should have morality

01:46:18--> 01:46:18


01:46:20--> 01:46:22

morals exists, or not.

01:46:23--> 01:46:23


01:46:25--> 01:46:29

That is not how this works. Yeah, really. So there's something that's called more realism was not

01:46:31--> 01:46:33

not Are they real or not? Are the

01:46:35--> 01:46:40

values subjective? Relative moral values an objective or objective?

01:46:42--> 01:46:42

What in your view?

01:46:44--> 01:46:44


01:46:46--> 01:47:01

my question to you is so simple, like, with my question to you is morality, is it objective or not? Are there such a thing as objective moral? I don't think so. So okay, good, so that all of your moral arguments have collapsed against Islam.

01:47:03--> 01:47:07

Once you've collapsed all your moral ones Yeah, because

01:47:08--> 01:47:09


01:47:10--> 01:47:15

you say about Islam now morally doesn't make sense. Morally works. You

01:47:17--> 01:47:28

believe his objective is not true. It's not a nihilist. For example, it can be a nihilist in in so far, that he does not believe that there are natural moral values is synonymous with objectivity.

01:47:30--> 01:47:33

Right, talking about a nihilist may believe that there are no

01:47:35--> 01:47:39

not subjective it's not synonymous nihilism is something which is not

01:47:41--> 01:47:47

if you're a subjectivist I am not you said you're not an objectivist You must be a subjectivist what are you did

01:47:48--> 01:47:49

not stop pretending you stop

01:47:50--> 01:47:51


01:47:53--> 01:48:10

Did you just say if I'm not an objectivist nmsp subjectivist is that you have to be if you're not if you don't believe in objective morality, are you laughing? If I if I don't believe in objective morality, then I have to believe in subjective morality. Yeah. objective or subjective. You've got two choices. What's the third option gone? Thank you. Thank you.

01:48:12--> 01:48:18

I swear to god why he oxen Billa you're not even a C grade A level? You're not even

01:48:19--> 01:48:20

know not your work, bro. You're

01:48:23--> 01:48:28

on bro. 1011 in ethics to get a better understanding of

01:48:29--> 01:48:34

10 year old, a sharp 16 year old will see that you don't know talking about. Now, what is the other option? You've got?

01:48:35--> 01:48:39

objective money. What's the third one? 2000 years of Moore's law?

01:48:41--> 01:48:41

I've got

01:48:45--> 01:48:47

a subject tomorrow. What's the other one? What

01:48:49--> 01:48:51

do you think? Do you think there is no other option besides objective?

01:48:53--> 01:48:59

objective or subjective is what's the third one? You think there is only objective? Oh my God said want to say?

01:49:02--> 01:49:12

I will make a video response to you because I think this will make a video response. If it's not objective. It has to be subjective. No. laughter You know, cosmic skeptic guys, they're gonna laugh at you, bro.

01:49:14--> 01:49:14

This idiot.

01:49:15--> 01:49:18

You have no level. And this

01:49:19--> 01:49:20


01:49:22--> 01:49:38

If it's not objective, it has to be subjective. There's no other option. What can it be? There's no crossover. There's no middle ground. It's either objective or not. You're that's the that's why you got it all wrong. That's why your criticisms against Islam are fraud because you don't even have a basic understanding. You don't

01:49:41--> 01:49:45

listen to the Muslim viewers who don't understand philosophy very well. Oh, you don't know what

01:49:49--> 01:49:52

I'm saying to all those viewers who don't understand philosophy. Well, I would like to say

01:49:53--> 01:49:59

what my amateur Job said about objective morality is for example, completely wrong, which is wrong to me that if I don't if I don't believe

01:50:00--> 01:50:18

No objective morality. For example, if it doesn't believe in objective morality, that doesn't mean that I cannot have objective moral values. It can mean either believe in objective morality or you believe in subjective money. There's no third option was to say, No, you have just clearly said as I went when I asked you, yes. Option, what is the third option? Stop laughing Stop pretending.

01:50:22--> 01:50:24

When I just asked you about whether an atheist can have objective morality, you said,

01:50:26--> 01:50:29

My God, we know he said that what's the third? What's the third?

01:50:30--> 01:50:31


01:50:32--> 01:50:33

hoping this guy, the great

01:50:38--> 01:50:41

objective, there's no option.

01:50:45--> 01:50:55

What's the third option? If objective morals that are not based on the belief in God, for example? That's a different discussion. You either believe in objective morality or subjective morality. You think as a third option? What is the third option?

01:51:03--> 01:51:04

I asked you the question, I

01:51:07--> 01:51:07

have a

01:51:08--> 01:51:09


01:51:11--> 01:51:11

at what

01:51:12--> 01:51:13

the question was.

01:51:16--> 01:51:24

Submit to the knowledge allow it. While I'm saying it's not the one who asked you whether there are only two part it was the I was the one who asked you

01:51:25--> 01:51:26

all subjective what you

01:51:28--> 01:51:29

were done. I asked you this question. Because

01:51:31--> 01:51:33

if it's not to be subjective,

01:51:34--> 01:51:36

why don't you Why don't you answer the answer.

01:51:41--> 01:51:46

That's the reason why, oh, for the same reason that you're not going to have a debate with me online. Because you know what?

01:51:52--> 01:51:55

I'm playing by my standards, you're playing by your standards.

01:51:56--> 01:52:07

I will, I will take my sessions to my platform. We will let you say do you really have nothing to say? Because here's the thing we talked about, and we realize

01:52:15--> 01:52:20

what you've said, you said, You don't believe in objective morality, if you don't believe in objective morality, which means this means

01:52:21--> 01:52:38

the implication is the implication is this. The implication is any argument you get make against Islam, which is moral. If you're asking about age of consent, or apostasy or a penal laws or anything you want to ask, from this day onwards, you have no right.

01:52:39--> 01:52:42

That is ridiculous, right? That's why you caught

01:52:46--> 01:52:52

your Murali. I could, for example, argue that morality is completely based on on utilitarianism, for example.

01:52:54--> 01:53:04

Jeremy Bentham, who is the who's the founding father of utilitarianism, they these individuals never said that it was objective. What it doesn't depend on individuals, it's not how it works.

01:53:08--> 01:53:10

is an idea it doesn't mean that it has to abide by

01:53:13--> 01:53:15

who is who is the philosophical founding father of

01:53:17--> 01:53:19

philosophy doesn't work either way.

01:53:20--> 01:53:27

Who put forward utilitarianism educate you? Because I'm telling you, who is the founding organism you can't even answer.

01:53:33--> 01:53:34

Honestly, have you read it?

01:53:37--> 01:53:42

Make if you abide by certain rules, let me repeat with one.

01:53:43--> 01:53:57

Who is he? Is it what is what you're saying? That if it's what you're saying that if you abide by a moral philosophy, you have to agree with what one certain person who found that the philosophy was influenced? I'm not. I'm saying is this?

01:53:59--> 01:54:00

The definition?

01:54:03--> 01:54:08

What's the definition of utilitarianism? I can't have a utilitarian point of view. What my

01:54:10--> 01:54:13

basic question was, there is no question.

01:54:14--> 01:54:24

What's the reason for the greatest number? It depends, for example, if a society decides, you have to pretend

01:54:25--> 01:54:41

I'm answering your goddamn question, that something is good, that something is better for society, to which they come as a result of the common consensus, or due to new findings, then it means that this will be a law that society has agreed on. And this is utilitarianism. No,

01:54:42--> 01:54:49

that's not a definition of utilitarianism. utilitarianism is not defined like that by any moral political philosopher. By the way, just I've written essays on it.

01:54:50--> 01:54:54

By the way, I've got some of something written on anti feminism as well. It's called

01:54:56--> 01:54:58

free Muhammad hijab, put it on Google.

01:55:00--> 01:55:04

You can find it for free. I've written about the stuff you claim to talk about I've written about it brought

01:55:10--> 01:55:12

to me You're not a professor, you're not my senior.

01:55:14--> 01:55:25

At this point, I feel like a plus you should just go and read Mohammed hijab his books because you seem like you're very lost. They're very Miss. understood what this allowed. So I recommend you to go one thing one.

01:55:26--> 01:55:30

Let's get back. Please, please just allow me just for a second. Yeah.

01:55:33--> 01:55:40

Let me just let me educate you let me share my knowledge with you. And that was wrong. you educate me from your own knowledge for Google search. Me educate.

01:55:43--> 01:55:44


01:55:48--> 01:55:52

see, for the greatest amount. Now. So isn't that what I just did? We just

01:55:55--> 01:55:59

described hold on for a second hold on, you didn't use democratic logic is different. What I'm saying that's

01:56:00--> 01:56:33

what his book said. What? Jeremy Bentham in his book, he said, he said, it's very interesting, because there's a Quranic argument against this. It was really interesting. He said, You got two lords, you've got the law of pain, and you've got a lot of pleasure. what the Quran says for it many tackles Allah, how have you seen the one who has taken his own desires as a good? So it's interesting, the Quran has actually addressed utilitarianism in an interesting kind of way. Now, the thing is what john Stuart Mill said, is that say if you have a gang, Greg, gang rape scenario, yeah, this is a common analogy that's put forward, you've got a gang grip scenario. So you've got one

01:56:33--> 01:56:59

woman, and then you've got five men, and they're all having their goals with her and she's not wanting it she's, she's getting raped. Yeah, she got finished. Now, in this situation, Is this good? Now, obviously, according to utilitarianism, in a strict sense, it's allowed because obviously, there's no harm principle in place of john Stuart Mill said, Look, in order to allow society to function, we have to put 100 principle in place. So that's how utilitarianism kinda was absorbed into social liberalism. Yeah. Now with social liberalism. Here's my point.

01:57:01--> 01:57:35

JOHN Stuart Mill, who really was a utilitarian at heart and by the way, his father James mill, was Jeremy Bentham's friend. They were the buddies. Yeah, that like this guy who wrote about utilitarianism, his father, James mill, we're friends. Now he wrote a book now in that book he said in on utilitarianism is the name of the book on chapter four. Yeah, he talks about proving utilitarianism. Now, he didn't mention he didn't name it like that. He named it along surfing as cosmic skeptic told me the debate. But anyway, it took like a long title, but it's candid in there. He talks about desirability, yeah, he doesn't in any way, shape, or form, try and say that

01:57:35--> 01:58:04

utilitarianism is in any way an objective morality, this is the problem. You're what I'm saying is you're saying, you can have objective morality through utilitarianism, by Jeremy Bentham and john Stuart Mill, who were the philosophy, philosophical founding fathers, they candidly said, you can't really have that kind of thing. It's more to do with, it's not meant to be an objective morality in that sense. So in other words, if you're you, if you're picking your moral value judgments on utilitarianism, you can't go and attack the problem because you know why you don't have an anchored, you don't have an objective

01:58:07--> 01:58:16

that you can't say, basically, even according to those guys, and all the way through to today's scholarship, I'm telling you, I've read the journals, bro. I have read the journals.

01:58:19--> 01:58:26

Not telling me journals, I've read the books. I've done the research. I've done the degrees please don't don't put don't irrigate them. Yeah.

01:58:28--> 01:58:29

Honestly, it's

01:58:30--> 01:58:40

not an argument that utilitarian liberal ethical scholars say that actually, utilitarianism is an objective morality. It's not it always, was actually released the whole, the whole talk. Yeah.

01:58:42--> 01:59:01

If you want to make a moral argument against Islam and say, well, Islam is against this, and therefore Islam is wrong. It's a false argument. If you're basing on utilitarian that's your seedbed. If that's your intellectual and epistemological seedbed, it's not gonna work. So what I'm saying is that no, you don't you don't have to have more than have to have a specific morality. And since morality has crumbled, what have you got left?

01:59:03--> 01:59:04

Exactly, exactly.

01:59:06--> 01:59:09

So so by by by disagreeing with me, you have to

01:59:11--> 01:59:12

question is what you

01:59:14--> 01:59:20

might disagree with me you have destroyed me, is that how it works? It's not I'm not here to destroy you. You're not was

01:59:21--> 01:59:22

number one. Number one.

01:59:24--> 01:59:24


01:59:26--> 01:59:26


01:59:37--> 01:59:48

at this point, you just sound you just sound really childish and you sound like you have an IQ of 39. If you want to make Islam when you just have to respond to people and share your opinion, because if you share your opinions

02:00:00--> 02:00:06

I picked the puncher No, because he was coming rough on. It was coming. You know he was going to quit. I thought this guy was

02:00:09--> 02:00:10

literally literally

02:00:15--> 02:00:16


02:00:20--> 02:00:24

You have a plus A plus A plus

02:00:25--> 02:00:26

A plus

02:00:29--> 02:00:30

A plus it was good having you.

02:00:32--> 02:00:49

I think at this point, if you're not up to Mohammed hijabs level, you've got nothing. If not, you have nothing, you finished nobody. And you finished your life, and you're finished alone and you're finished and you're finished and you're finished. May you go read the books of Mohammed hijab and, you know, seek guidance.

02:00:51--> 02:00:54

Blessings, anyway, who cares about your wife who told you, she's choosing

02:00:55--> 02:00:59

your wife, people want to rape your wife and you care about peace and blessings, peace and blessings. Now

02:01:03--> 02:01:38

he's out he's done. We're done with this guy, but Mohammed hijab, honestly, I'm so much so much respect to you for your patience, so much respect for your for like you're going through with, with these, like with these ex Muslim haters, because some of them have, I feel like they're just against you. They're not against them. I feel like they're against you, not against it. Like they're just trying to use you as Oh, look, look, but they have no way out. You know, when they talk about I'll be honest with you, I'm like, do you know this guy is meant to be one of the main guys online here he was social media unless they're backing him. This was look you I mean, the best he could present.

02:01:39--> 02:02:09

So he started talking about science, okay, when he's when he talks about science, we realized that he, you know, he realized, whoa, this guy's got answers from the early generations. So he's gonna say because you know, it's true. He has a video saying that the top whatever reasons why Islam is false. And then he mentioned, okay, let's look and see if he's speaking the truth, we realize that actually, early scholars of Islam was saying the earth was round based on the Quran. So that's, that's nothing, that's not even an argument. And then we talked about morality. And that's where he really struggled, because no philosophy, he doesn't know these things, and he hasn't been trained in

02:02:09--> 02:02:41

them. And that's why he shouldn't get like I would like, for example, I mentioned in gun one, I wouldn't want to get into the ring with them Garner because, you know, I know it's gonna cost me it's gonna cost me my life, maybe or contact me. But why would you go into why would you come into an intellectual arena with someone who's clearly done more work than you have? Yeah, and 100% and also that you, you'll come in as a teacher, you're not a teacher. You know, you're a person who's ripped up the Koran. You're acting arrogantly, but when you're actually put into an intellectual arena, you suffer miserable losses.

02:02:42--> 02:03:18

loss, like, what actual point has he made today that's made any Muslim think Islam is false? Nothing, nothing. I don't I feel like that he was trying to take advantage of me and slim, because he knows that we're, we're not that knowledgeable, not knowledgeable about Islam. I don't know. You know, as you Mashallah, you know, you proved he just felt stupid to me. He just seems so childish. And he's using us as having a low IQ. He's trying to take advantage of our platform. So I'm so thankful and grateful for being here. Mohammed hijab, at the end of the day, yeah. Saying you have low IQ. Who is he to say that to you, bro? Yeah, both of you have shown your creative potential.

02:03:19--> 02:03:50

Yeah, you've done many things for the community. You've raised money you've done he's got look him and the rest of the apostate friends that he's got. And islamophobes I want to know where really they've raised money. Well, they've done good for the community, like you have nothing. I don't think they've ever had platforms. They've got big platforms, they're taking money, but they're not given back to the communities they have not they have not done fundraisers. And that shows you like to be honest with you on a practical level. Yeah. These people are actually just all talk. And you know, this is the reason why people like that never want to come face to face. Yeah, they never want

02:03:50--> 02:03:59

to come to business with those who can actually disprove them. they'd prefer to prey on people who haven't done the studies and that's that's a coward's way. Yes. Yeah.

02:04:00--> 02:04:13

That's what I called David Wood. It's on 2 million views. Yeah, I seen it I see now and I seen a he even made it like a video other day. Just he just they're just haters. I feel like they're just haters of Islam. And they're all they do is mentioned. You know?

02:04:15--> 02:04:16

If they can take anything you guys say

02:04:18--> 02:04:26

the guy the guy when I saw him, he was petrified? Yeah, I'd be I'd be petrified if I see someone who's six feet seven

02:04:27--> 02:04:29

is a big man himself but I looked at

02:04:30--> 02:04:33

some videos on YouTube. He could I saw that he rejected and rejected

02:04:35--> 02:04:52

well in an area that was dug by so yeah, and I looked at him Yeah, and I saw him I said you know I'm not gonna do nothing to you. I'm not gonna put You're lucky this guy was complaining about his safety being in danger. This is the narrative or the Muslims these otherwise Muslims that want to attack you and kill you and stuff. No one's asking for your death man.

02:04:54--> 02:04:59

pretended to be a victim. So you can Yes, yes. No, just pick this guy here. Yeah, he's sponging off his face.

02:05:00--> 02:05:31

Follow us on Patreon Yeah, yes I've got a patron you have a patrons no problem have a Patreon I don't I've never asked anyone to go my patreon Yeah, yeah now we're gonna make a Patreon soon but definitely we heard about Patreon Patreon yet but I'm saying at the end of the day this guy is taken from these people but on when it comes to actually performances Look at his performance bro yeah or nothing at all it's like someone who's hyping it up but to go to a boxing match and once they go in there they just get knocked out. That's that's how I've seen it. Right? You're right. He's not he's not at your level. He's not at your level. And he makes it seem like he's this teacher and this on

02:05:31--> 02:06:03

Twitter, he's talking or listening or a lot. And you know, then you go in, I got her I reaching Mohammed for, for dealing with people like this all the time. Like seriously, like, you know, with these kinds of people. I'm like, you know, if it was just me, I was I'm really like, wanna have a conversation with you guys on the level? And show you Yeah, of course. Of course, of course. But I learned a lot from you. Even throughout this talk. I learned a lot more and I'm pretty sure everyone is watching. They learned a lot and I'm so so glad that Allah told me because I was about to get manipulated by me. He's making it seem like trying to trick me like oh, you You seem very nice. You

02:06:03--> 02:06:26

seem very nice. Well, and then I'm glad it went this way. You know, what, this way where he we had him and he was trying to like take advantage and it came unexpected just came out of nowhere. Today's man his face when he saw your you saw you join was priceless. Honestly, he was always like, No, no, no, no, no. In the beginning. He said Yeah. He said I would love to speak to him. And he made it seem you couldn't hear him but he was I love to speak out. Okay. He started talking and then he just

02:06:28--> 02:06:28


02:06:30--> 02:06:31

he was going to

02:06:32--> 02:06:33

be a very

02:06:35--> 02:06:43

What do you call it a popular episode of social Oh, very, very interesting, interesting episode, he got finished, literally finished last.

02:06:44--> 02:07:18

But Mohammed said, john, I want you to tell us more about like, more about yourself. When do you start? You know, and honestly, like, I have some we have a few questions like what when you start you know, getting into this and going all over, you know, online and these giving and giving debates and stuff. I'll be honest with you, like I've always when I was in school and stuff like that, like when I was 15 1617 I started to become a bit religious. Yeah. And I had friends of mine and stuff like that, that I want to share Islam with them. So I was always been in it's always been in my my vein and my my blood Mashallah to try and share Islam with him because I come to the conclusion that

02:07:18--> 02:07:49

we actually have evidences for Islam. I was trying to present that to him. Yeah, the evidence is to Islam from from God's existence all the way through to the prophethood of Prophet Mohammed fly salam, yeah, we have evidence, we're not coming with our just believe in blind faith, we're not coming with this kind of rhetoric, we're saying, we have evidence for everything we want to say, from the existence of God, all the way through to pronounce it ourselves. So we say, look, in terms of the existence of God, to run you through this, we say you can either come from nothing, or that the universe created itself, or that there must have been some kind of creator. And we said,

02:07:49--> 02:08:24

logically speaking, it makes more sense that there was a cause to universe. And that cause was the intelligent cause, the one who created the universe with, with all this kind of like fine tuned qualities. Yeah, if the earth was just a little bit too left to the right, it would be too hot or too cold, we would not live, the properties of the universe are finely tuned for human existence. And then when you look at the provenance outside of himself, and when he came with the evidence, and that, you know, the fact that he himself had the Quran, and the Quran, like I said, is preserved, we have the evidence to show that it's preserved. There's no contradictions in the book, we have the

02:08:24--> 02:08:55

evidence, and we're willing to argue with anybody on this, that this book has no contradictions. And because something is a contradiction is not true. So this book is free from contradictions, number two, number three, we look at the fact that the Quran talks about the future events, and I spoke about some of those. Yes, it is amazing how accurate the Prophet you know, does the hiding if you want to taste for example, I gave some already but I'll give one more. You notice a beautiful Hadith I was thinking about it the other day that was talking about in the future, there's gonna come a time

02:08:56--> 02:09:35

that this the people are going to be reclining in leather seats on something called search. Now Suraj, kind of similar to what sort of Gen which is when son, this this was a means, basically, like a boat, but what here the prophets Allah was talking about something is going to be gliding under earth, He said that there's going to come a time where people are literally driving these vehicles, and they're going to be reclining on leather seats. You know, and obviously, he is so panela. And this is, which is real. So we have the prophet of Islam 1400 years ago, telling us about cars, and telling us about your toluna elbonian. The fact that's going to be long, tall buildings and telling

02:09:35--> 02:09:59

us about all these things are going to happen in the future historical events are taking place. While lie there's no religion on the face of the earth, while light is no religion on the face of the entire Earth, that is so accurate and that is free from contradictions and which has a perfect understanding of God, which is that he is one God worthy of worship. There can't be two Gods because if there was two gods, they will outstrip one another for power. So we have

02:10:00--> 02:10:03

All the evidence is the logical evidence is the historical evidences

02:10:04--> 02:10:20

is the scriptural evidence as we have audit evidence is when I realized that and I wanted to share it with my friends in my school, you know, I shut them out, you know, and I started doing that. And then one day I went to speaker's corner. And you know, speaker's corner is like, yeah, 20 minutes from my house, I just, I used to go there. And then some highlighters just kind of happened naturally, when

02:10:21--> 02:10:43

we used to go there and stuff. But before that, I was deeply interested. So I wanted to learn the Arabic language on to do these things on to memorize the Quran. To get it, I wanted to go through Islamic seminary, I wanted to learn philosophy, I wanted to learn history, I wanted to learn theology, I wanted to learn these things, so I can engage with people, man, like, I want to do it on a level where I don't want to be talked down by an islamophobe. I don't want anybody

02:10:45--> 02:11:19

to want that. So if someone's coming to me and say, Look, I'm gonna look down at you like this guy tried to do, I'm gonna say, No, I've done the training, bro. You know, I can say you haven't done what I've done. And I feel like this community thinks that I'm a servant for the community as a, as a Muslim. I want to be a shill for the Muslim community. So I'm sharing this knowledge just for me, like 1010 years worth of view? Would you call it 10 years of work? Because I feel like I want the Muslim community to benefit the most from the most cutting edge arguments that we have to offer. Yeah, and we work as a team. So we have rivals like Zhi Shan, you know, Zhi. SHAN Yeah, he's gonna

02:11:19--> 02:11:54

create an expert. You know, he's, like, a mix when it comes to technology. And this is and he knows the arguments as well. You have people like suborn Ahmed, who's an expert and evolution, you have Ali Tao, who's great once you've, and he's looking into these things, and he knows how to he's a creative expert himself, man. He's very clever to make Tao appeal to young people is not easy. Yeah, we haven't. Yeah, yeah, man, where people at Hamza sources who have written 100 you know, 100,000 page books like divine reality, who like we put our life into this because we love Islam, we love the professor's Allah. You know, we love we want to do as much as we can for the community to get it

02:11:54--> 02:12:25

and that's where we are. And I really love you guys. Well, I The moment I saw you guys and I to be honest with you, I saw like the drama between you and that woman and Allah Tao and all that cuz I wasn't involved. oxen velella dimia. I thought to myself, you know what? That's not the approach I want to take with these guys. Because I saw something else I saw like these guys. There's a few videos that you had, and I thought, Oh, these guys are pro Islam. Well, I said, Guys, I know these guys are pro Islam. I don't care what they do. I don't care what they do. I don't care who I'm not saying this stuff a lot. What you do, like

02:12:27--> 02:12:41

I knew it. I can see from the from the passion that you guys had, that these guys will pro Islam. And I will let me do i and i know Dolman said that, because I still have beautiful fingers. Yeah, yeah, I made that for you guys have me Allah will like I said this move about three or four years ago.

02:12:42--> 02:13:06

May Allah make them be the people who spread Islam and at least make the community? Yeah, the Muslim community, give them something back, whether it's charity, whether it's basic education, whether it's helping them out, whether it's tackling Islamophobia, or a combination of these things. Whether it's humanizing Muslims, bro, you guys do a good job in humanizing Muslims. You got it? You guys. People think Muslims. Awesome. Look at this guy.

02:13:07--> 02:13:43

He was trying to kill us, bro. We're not gonna get a headline, the headline saying something? And he's like, Oh, yeah. Oh, Adam saw that. And Muhammad hijab approve of killing apostates. And that's what he's looking for. He asked that same question for like, 25 minutes. I mean, it's, like, Look, Rope A Dope, I'm happy to take because the thing is, we have the answers, bro. And, of course, of course, this is my auto layout. I say this to a Muslim. I say this, because I'm the kind of guy you know, I've been in trouble for saying things that are wild. I don't care like Well, I'm protected under law. This, you know, I've been I've been fired from places. Like I say things and do things I

02:13:43--> 02:14:06

don't care later on. And to be honest, if it's truth is truth. But having said that, this is the truth I came with. I'm not trying to distort the religion. I'm not trying to bend the rules. I'm working within the thing. So what I'm saying is at the end of the day, like I think we've used to a lot of you guys were like, make me smile. You guys have incredible potential more so than all of the dollar guys combined? Yeah, I'm telling you.

02:14:08--> 02:14:43

Why, because you have access to different kind of market. You are mainstream, we are getting there. But we're not in the level that you know. But you know, you've humanized the Muslims. Like one of the things is that people would authorize us they think that we're like, they literally you know that the image of the guy that's cutting the neck off and you know that they want to make it a caricature, like an ugly image of this Muslim who wants to kill you and take off. Yes, yes. I noticed that they tried to make you when in reality, Mashallah. You're well respected, smart man, you know, and they're just trying to kind of bring you down but honestly, the entire community they

02:14:43--> 02:14:58

want the entire community Yeah, to be looked like that. So that sort of Yes, can be deployed or so that they can go into our countries and invade them. And you see what I know of Yemen now. You know, what's happening with Yemen and how many people are talking about how many people you guys are

02:14:59--> 02:14:59


02:15:00--> 02:15:36

I actually feel ashamed of myself. Because I spoke I went to Rohingya. Sorry, I went to Cox's Bazar on the border with the ringu I went to Africa, I've done campaigns but I haven't done too much about Yemen. And I'm, you know, there's still time there's still time I'm still definitely tired. Sometimes Why haven't I spoken about Yemen that much and you guys have done a beautiful job of that. You know, raising money and these things I'm proud This is not these are things that really bro you're saving lives it's a big big big honestly we look up to you. We look up to you added our smile to Jenna Tao man oh you guys we look up to you guys so much and thank you guys for having our back

02:15:36--> 02:16:09

when people like this who who try to tarnish you know, you know Islam and try to make it seem that because if it wasn't for you guys, you know given the knowledge and even you know teaching us to and teaching everyone who's watching and listening then we wouldn't know you know, at the end of the day we know that Islam is the truth and this guy was just a phony he was just literally a phony it seemed like he was just going on and trying to take advantage and you're right and get people doubts of Islam but I appreciate it Well honestly we want to learn more and definitely definitely speak a lot more we need to do another episode which you like on episode which you you know because this guy

02:16:09--> 02:16:09


02:16:11--> 02:16:12

so much better at talking with

02:16:13--> 02:16:22

time. Any time you guys need me I'm there bro I'm telling you because you guys like I said to you before I look up to you guys you know what

02:16:28--> 02:17:04

our community that we love the brothers are judgmental a lot of brothers are feel like oh we're doing the right and we're waiting to so you can go kiss a girl or you know do something wrong so we can make a refutation video that to be honest with you here's what I want to say to you yeah, yes, making a mistake is 10 times more problematic than you making a mistake because what us is that our guys yes as women to be representing Islam on intellectual level you guys are not you got he if we are trying to get fame Yeah. Through religious goods that we're selling this for the sake of argument Oh, we are 10 times worse than you because we're doing us harm we're doing what you called

02:17:04--> 02:17:39

yet we're using the religion to try and become famous you guys are clear that you don't you don't even use it when you're just having fun. So if you're doing Harlem Yes How long has Harlem we're not gonna say it's halal but you're using the religion in a sense that's an added as an added problem bro. So you guys need to tell us like you know check out some of our intentions this whole thing of we're here to check you guys no no no no no no no no this this that's that's way that's in the past that's in the past well grown and honestly I feel like we come to you guys now we come to you guys on to ask you guys honestly you ask even Allah da da I messaged them message you to like what you

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know what should I respond to these people who try to make Islam look bad and he tried to bring us down we bring we bring you guys and Aslam said you know this this made us all unite you know people like this made us all unite because I remember I did something messed up and I wanted to stop you know having this like this thing that I was doing I wanted to stop it and Ollie dow and dow man they just they just helped me you know and I felt like it was a sign from God and it's not from Allah to to have you right now and it's making all of us you know just just getting better every day.

02:18:10--> 02:18:25

Every day getting closer every day. I just saw that I saw a video of yours I really liked it was a video you're responding to a Logan Paul about God he's talking about God I love that video so much. And Sharla I really hope this podcast but you know he follows me on Twitter so maybe I could you know

02:18:31--> 02:18:32

i don't i don't think Logan Paul's ripping up

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I think you'll be you'll be a great candidate to like really represent Islam and speak I'm very educated podcast bro and talk to him I travel for that because to be honest with you community requires like I said representation and I'm really really like I'm glad that he's paid attention because he actually mentioned in one of his I think thing he said there's a Muslim guy I think he was talking about it and he was talking about you I think he's he's big words in it so I think he might have been talking about me so if it is me then I'm happy to travel whenever the COVID allows or if he if he wants me to do on podcast like this on Skype or zoom then that's easy to arrange You

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know? So if anyone listening watching Michi has to go tag Logan Paul and tag Mohammed hijab let him know you know, I feel like Logan Paul would definitely listen and be be more civilized and then that child that child a plus. So I would love to see you guys so you guys together and talking. I feel like Logan Paul even though you know the whole boxing stuff going on. I feel like he's also really smart. Yeah, and you too also really smart. You know, the biggest, biggest mistake Logan Paul made is that he made a boxing match with him and what's his name? KSI because I saw this guy actually doing a grappling match with Costa from

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the UFC, UFC got him he's fine, he's fine next month. Oh cost I guess. Wow. Okay, yeah, he was wrestling or you saw Logan Paul Russell cost of him like grappling like wrestling with Costa

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This guy was given customer money and I'm thinking if you imagine if you learn how to put your your punch in and your bloody thing together, you probably would have destroyed chaos. I

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think that's what he wanted first. I think that's what he wanted MMA first.

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I'm trying to pick him up a little bit so you could put me on the podcast, you know,

02:20:20--> 02:20:50

he definitely has a lot of potential and he's never had an episode where, you know, you have someone who's talking someone like you, he's never had anyone like you on his podcast. So I think that would be really, really amazing. be interesting to you know, like, just to see like, you know, someone who, someone in the Western world, you know, talk with a hijab, you know, one on one talking about Islam. So, I think very interesting. It'd be good to reach out to a broader audience besides just Muslims, you know, to people who are just trying to find faith, because he follows me on twitter after this. We're gonna we're gonna dm him again. I got you. I got him

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a couple times, but I got you beautiful, bro. If you if you guys need anything from me at all, bro, I'm liable for you. Am I a service Honestly? And just honestly, with with everything,

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like, knowledge with Islam, I would definitely contact you because I always always feel like and I need to get I need to get through you guys first. You know, I feel like I look as I said, I look up to you guys. I look up to you before I was looking at as hate. But now I know now sounds seeing people trying to you know, laugh at us fighting? Nah, that's not it. This is like this guy, David Wood apparently. Because you know, when you made that video about when you went on? How would you call it the airplane to being racist? You know, ever? Yeah, he's done plenty of videos. I mean, that guy's as that guy's a con. Yeah, he's like, I didn't, even when you were doing that they were

02:21:37--> 02:22:10

attacking you. So there needs to be an intellectual. You know, there needs to be a knowledge base response. It's not just because content has to be yes. At the end of the day. It has to be Yeah, it has to be what you guys are great at creative content, entertainment. You know, I'm trying to say engagement. All of that you guys are experts and specialists in and wherever this dumb guy said about you. He's jealous. Because at the end of the day, he came on your podcast, you'd never go on his. And he was he was using you guys because he knows that people will rise up. And that's the reality people love you guys up because you're real and authentic individuals. Yeah. And that's what

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people like people like real stuff. They don't like fake guys like him a fraud. You got 100% so no reason. Yeah, it's always there. And I'm happy to have you guys as friends. And you know, I'm gonna say anytime you guys need a response, we're there. And you know, my brother appreciate that. Appreciate that so much, honestly. Shall we say we've seen him around. He's here.

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Sean Yo, he's good. He'd be helping with the cameras. I want to say something about Zhi Shan Shan sama he does a lot of work his his his brother.

02:22:43--> 02:22:58

I see his production and everything is amazing. Seriously. And I love you. I love you what you guys doing together? I think Hmm. With the webcam thing. What we're gonna do we're gonna send you the footage that we recorded on the camera amazing error. Because

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I think this looks a bit dead. Isn't it the webcam? Yeah, it does.

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Well as a place to send his footage to

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go do nothing. And trust me, we will

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get ready. He's gonna post tweets right now and talk like a lot of a lot of crap. He's gonna talk about permission to put his this up on his channel as well. I didn't give him no permission. I'm doing a copyright strike the guy.

02:23:23--> 02:23:32

Yeah, no, I don't know. I don't know if he's gonna play anything, but I'm pretty sure he's gonna try to upload something. So if you don't strike him straight away, man. Yeah, he's

02:23:33--> 02:23:48

he's, I don't think he's gonna upload anything if you don't know. Huh? You give us permission to take a little bit. 100 minutes 100% Yes, you have all the permission you can post everything. Yeah, you can post everything. After tomorrow when we posted it.

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We're gonna post a trailer tomorrow but we're also gonna put post for video.

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We're gonna link your channel as well. You can post your side of the version as well you know, so so around Wednesday, Wednesday like seven 8pm UK time will it'll be up but the audio will be out tomorrow. Okay seven eight. Okay, nice woman Yeah, the audio be out. I'll keep you updated. I'll keep you updated. All right, perfect, man. Beautiful my brother my brother Salaam to yousician inshallah we'll see you guys in the UK we definitely gonna come there soon. Most definitely. We're gonna be there. Charlotte Charlotte. This year this year. So me.

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Yeah, I would love to see a boxing match.

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I see I seen you

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02:24:38--> 02:24:41

I saw that. It was so funny.

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I'll text you send us the footage whenever you ask. And then I just like walk on guys.