vs. David Wood – Tawheed vs. Trinity
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Channel: Mohammed Hijab
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AI Generated Summary ©
The conversation covers the history and meaning behind the use of the holy spirit in religion, including its connection to the holy grail and its co degree with the holy Spirit. The speakers also discuss the moral case against Islam and the importance of accepting the Bible as a source of comfort for Muslims. The discussion touches on the history of the world and the confusion surrounding the holy Spirit's implications, including its use in reconciling conflicting teachings. The speakers end with a brief advertisement for a two-minute rebuttal and a book called Zach tower.AI Generated Transcript ©
Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.
Before we start we're gonna have croner citation by caught it
for a few minutes.
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soon.
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Bismillah R. Rahman
hamdu Lillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Allah Allah has obvious marine. Your college. Muslim Student Association is very proud to present this event. And before we start this event, we actually want to thank our sponsors, grassroots
Muslims giving back and Salaam initiative. So we have Brother Mohammed Hijazi, who's gonna give us one minute speech before we start.
salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato
hamdu Lillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah. Whether they were Savio, Manuela, your brother Mustafa Hijazi, like lawhead so I'm basically here to represent the UN introduced to co sponsors mainly we have grassroots that were NYC, Muslims giving back and Salaam. So just to run through each of them. So grassroots NYC is a dour organization more focusing on street our initiatives in the tri state area, mainly New York City. And so what we do is we go out and we convey the call and basically set up a dowel boots in our New York areas and popular areas such as Union Square, Park Time Square, different areas in the Bronx, and Queens everywhere that you could possibly think of in in the New
York boroughs. And so this is a call to invite each and every one of you to join this initiative. A lot of panel data says in sort of lm Ron in chapter three, verse 104, where Allah says, letter arrives to a small group or a nation that enjoys and good and forbid evil, and they are successful. And Allah also tells us in chapter three, verse 64, the same pseudo clear title either Kalimantan, somewhere in between and obeying a common law. But the law says all people at the scripture come to common terms between us and you that we worship the one true God and not ascribe any partners to him.
And so this is highly relevant to today's debate. This is essentially a dow initiative and there are much more to come. So please join this join the effort. Visit Our Facebook grassroots NYC for more information as to Muslims giving back, similar work down but they also focus on providing to the homeless and needy. So if you're interested visit MGB MGB inshallah and finally Salaam is actually the organization that Mohammed hijab and Ali Dawa work closely with us. In fact, they're the founders and initiators of of that organization. And so you can find more information by going on their site. Specifically, I think it would be of interest to look into their podcast, which deals
with a lot of the polemics and misconceptions in Islam today. And so does that come along here? And may Allah subhanaw taala make this a fruitful evening.
Coming up next introducing him himself, his brother, yeah, Brother Ali down
Assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh.
Before I start, want to praise Allah subhanho wa Taala, the Most Merciful the most just or praise His glory and gratitude, belong to him for the work that we do.
As you guys know from the YouTube videos that we do, for the past couple of years hummed along, we've reached a vast amount of people ambling total we've reached 52 million people in
Every month, we reach two to 3 million people. We've set up this organization not just me myself, I'm Mohammed Shah. We shouldn't just get the credit we have our teachers, Mohammad Sheikh Mohammed of man, and the whole team may Allah bless every single one of them.
Salam stands for sharing affection, love and mercy at the time that we live.
Sadly, a lot of people have hijacked our religion and be the extremist Muslims don't need to mention the name. You guys know what I'm talking about. And be it non Muslims who lie about religion on a constant basis. So Islam is there to give the people a pure understanding by deconstructing false narratives and reconstructing pure minds so people can understand the true essence of Islam. So that is what Salaam is about. You can check out our website inshallah you can check out check out our YouTube channel and that's exactly what we're here to do. And today's debate is inshallah start of that and we thank every single one of you guys who have come here today may Allah bless you guys
make dua inshallah Disco's successful and that's by me Allah grant you guys Jana salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.
Thank you very much for the Dhamma so before we start this event, I want to make sure to inform people why we are hosting this event as your college Muslim students say we're so we're seeking to host a respectful and friendly dialogue debate between two key figures, David Wood, and Muhammad hijab. Both of these respected figures have expertise in their core beliefs. That said, the topic of the debate will be Trinity or debate. The debate will focus on the essence of God from both Christian and Muslim perspectives. It will be it will be an educational discussion platform expanding on core theological concepts. There will be significant references exchanged both from the
Quran and the Bible. So before we start, I just want to make sure that the audience has have this clear
wish there are going to be multiple opinions in this in this debate. So I don't want anyone to feel offended This is we're here to learn about each other's each other's opinions, if you feel easily offended, please do not react. And at the same time, if any of the speakers make any, make any statement that you feel that is a very good statement or feel that you agree with clapping is sufficient, we don't want any verbal cheering or something like that. This is a very, very educational debate clapping is sufficient. So without further ado, I would like to introduce my co moderator Bursa Lim Rahim.
So this is how the format of the debate is gonna start. We're gonna have 20 minute opening statements for each speaker. Then there's gonna be 12 minute first rebuttals, and then eight minute second rebuttals then Crossfire examination where where the speakers will be asking each other questions. Each speaker will have six questions to ask the other speaker and that will take two minutes to enter each of the questions. Then we're going to have five minute conclusions. Then as you can see, there are mics in at the front where there is going to be a q&a session where you can ask where you can ask our brothers, brother, Muhammad, hijab and David Wood. Any questions if you
have, please keep everything respectful. If there's if there are any, any disrespectful remarks for you, you will be escorted out. So without further ado, introducing our first speaker, Dr. David Wood.
So just a little background on Dr. David Wood. He's a Christian evangelist and preacher, David Wood is a member of a society of Christian philosophers, the evangelical Philosophical Society, and the human society is a former atheist, David became a Christian after examining the historical evidence of the resurrection of Jesus. He's a contributor to the books evidence for God 50 arguments for faith from the Bible, history, philosophy and science, defending the resurrection and true reason, Christian responses to the challenge of atheism. David has a PhD in philosophy from Fordham University, and has been in more than 60 moderated public debates with Muslim atheist and other
Christians. And that's a little background on our first speaker, Dr. David Wood. And without further ado, introducing our his opposition brother Muhammad hijab, a
little background on Muhammad hijab. He's an academic researcher and media host. He is a debater and public speaker who engages in discussions and polemics on wide variety of topics including religion, politics and society. He completed a politics degree and a master's in history from Queensbury University. He has taught and instructed courses on humanities and languages in many contexts. He has numerous addresses and some Islamic sciences and has studied in multiple Islamic seminaries including the shin Chitti Institute, which employs a traditional Norwegian style of teaching the sacred sciences
Mr. hijab is currently doing further postgraduate research in Islamic Studies at the School of Advanced Studies University of London.
So, like I said, just please keep everything that I said in mine and I think we will start with
Brother Mohammed hijab giving us his 20 minute opening statement.
You know, the Quran tells us to Allah, Allah, kilometer and so when Elena Allah
The first thing we also do when we're engaging with Christian people is to come to common terms that we worship none but Allah subhanaw taala. And that's something we really need to think about. We need to think about the common grounds that we have with Christians, there's lots in common.
We believe in Jesus Christ, we believe in the Messiah. We believe in him we love the Messiah who believe Jesus, believe that he was born from the Virgin Mary, there's a whole chapter in the Quran dedicated to her.
But of course, the elephant in the room or the difference of opinion, is in the fact that we as Muslims do not believe that Jesus was divine, or that the Holy Spirit is divine.
Today's discussion, ladies and gentlemen is about to head and Trinity.
So Hades
is monotheism,
to believe and worshiping one god the Quran says por la de la summit, that say He is Allah, one and only the Eternally Besought of all the sovereign.
The Trinity is defined by the athanasian Creed, and 580 athanasian Creed, as one divine person, that one divine being divided into three divine persons, the father, a son of the Holy Spirit, the father is God. The son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. But there are not three Gods but one God.
It goes, the father is almighty, the son is almighty and the Holy Spirit is almighty but there are not three Almighty's there's one Almighty This is what the athanasian Creed says.
Now, to be honest with you, I've heard David Wood speak before. And I've noticed that there are three common fallacies that he falls into quite often. One of them is a fallacy called the to coqui fallacy, which is an appeal to hypocrisy. Another one is a straw man. And the third one is the red herring. These three fallacies are employed by him quite often.
And he talks about Islam extensively, as you guys may know, in a negative way. Salaam initiative has put up a database of all of the major misconceptions against Islam being answered, and this can be seen in the link below.
I also want to give credit to
one team member who has made a website called many prophets one message which can also be seen in the link below, you can see more information about them, not to come straight into it.
The question now is this.
The question is,
when we look at the Old Testament,
do we find this idea of the Nicene Trinity, because then I see in Trinity is very specific. After the Constantinople created 381, the idea that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three co equal, co eternal, independent beings remember those words, co equal, co eternal, independent persons, of the one being of God? This is the Nicene understanding of the Trinity. Now, having said that, guys, when you look at the Old Testament,
do we see this because when we look at the Old Testament, we find the Shema, chapter six verse four, Shema Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu.
Hero Israel, my Lord, our Lord is one route. Hey, when you look at the first commandment, Chapter 20, verse three of Exodus, you find there's no God beside me. I'm your Lord and there's no God beside me. You find in Isaiah chapter 43, verse 11, once again, the discussion of I am Ugandan besides me, there is no savior.
Now someone might argue about the word Elohim. And this is the weakness of the argument. so weak linguistic argument is a majestic plural, they would argue.
Look, there are 9000 pronouns in the Bible which relate to God's name. Let's take for example, Genesis chapter one, verse one,
bedsheet, maqasid,
Baha Elohim, the word dukkha means he created whenever you find a pronoun in the Old Testament, referring to Elohim you will always be
Find it in third person, male, singular,
third person male singular, you don't find the plural version of that.
You don't find a pronoun, which is pluralized.
So now the question would be, is this a Jew who is acquainted with the Torah with the Old Testament? Why would one ask him to realign his belief, his theological doctrines into believing in a triune? God, when in fact, he's been instructed quite explicitly, in fact, in the Old Testament, not to break the commandments?
You see, it gets a little bit more interesting even when you look at the New Testament. Now we know the New Testament
has different Austin offers its own its own books of the New Testament, you've got Paul
has written from seven to 13 books in this dispute as to exactly how much has written john written many books, who is john, we don't know who john is, by the way. We don't know who john is. But
yes, Paul had a kind of exaltation. Christology, there's no doubt, he did believe that Jesus was divine. And a good example of that is the second Philippians the him.
But he believes in a kind of subordination ism. And how do we know that? Because if you look at nine, nine to 11, it's quite explicit. That God gives him the name, so he didn't have it before. Jesus did not have the name before and he makes up of old names.
So that he believes in a kind of subordination isn't that why subordination ism, it's a hierarchy within the Trinity. Remember, we said, and I see in Trinity is three co equal co eternal
persons of the Godhead. Paul didn't believe this, he believes in a hierarchy. JOHN believed in an incarnation, Christology. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God. Everyone knows the prologue john chapter one. Yeah.
But the question is, who is john, his his gospel was found some 95 ad, this is the time it was found 95 ad. That's some 65 years after Jesus's disappearance. The irony of all
is that you'll find in the Gospel of john,
for example, passages like john 17, three
were explicitly mentioned that the Father is the only true God explicitly mentioned this. And this was such a thorn in the side of the Church Fathers that Oh, Gustin, a major church father, who died for 30 ad, and he wrote, who wrote an extra Jesus on john, Jr. He said, he rearranged the words of john chapter 17, verse three, he changed the word order, so as to make Jesus and the father the true gods. This is how severe it was.
When you find chapter 12, verse 29,
that you came to Jesus, asking how to be saved. And what did Jesus say? did Jesus say, and Mike, by the way, is the most ancient manuscript of all of the Gospels, most ancient gospels?
What did Jesus say? Did he say, you have to believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as co equal co eternal, independent beings? He said, No, he said, he referred him to the Shama chapter six, verse four of Deuteronomy. That's what he referred him to. He didn't tell him believe me as God, I believe the Holy Spirit is God of all these things. No.
So you see, really entry to the question is where do people, Christians today, whether they get their information, the Trinity, you'll find that in Matthew, chapter 28, verse 19, it talks about, it's called the baptismal formula where the Father and the Holy Spirit is mentioned going the way baptizing the Father, the Son of the Holy Spirit.
And so Christians use this as proof. Okay, attorneys in the Bible now.
The users say, look, the Trinity is in the Bible now. But why don't they look at Luke chapter nine, verse 26, because Luke chapter nine, verse 26, has a different triadic formula, where the Father, the Son and the Holy Angels,
yes, the holy angels, not the Holy Spirit. So why don't we infer a trinity from this? This is the question.
Now, we've had these debates before and they've been done before. And it's usually Okay, we'll get a vague verse here and ambiguous verse here, and we'll start talking about these things. But here's an interesting question. Now.
How did the earliest generations of Christians interpret the New Testament corpus?
You have church fathers, who are the most learned men of Christendom?
People like Clement of Rome Polycarp
origin.
People like those individuals, none of those Church Fathers for the first 300 years. Listen to what I'm saying. None of those Church Fathers for the first 300 years of church history in
a nice sea and Trinity from this, can you imagine? 300 years
10 even Tertullian, who died 240 ad to Julian who dubbed or coined the term Trinity,
which was later translated into Trinity. He was a subordination is he believed the hierarchy within the different persons of the Godhead.
The interesting point here is you have someone like
you have someone like Heliopolis.
He
was taught by Iranian
massive church father, Justin Martyr, massive church father, he taught origin of Alexandria, massive church father, and he writes in his book against the heresies in chapter 22, what does he write, he talks about this group called the urbanites who were around around 70 ad
40 years after the disappearance of Jesus, and they believe that Jesus was not God, that He was a prophet,
and that he was the Messiah.
There were other groups like them on arcanists, who believed the non divinity of Jesus. It wasn't just the EBU nice, someone, our kin is also believed that Jesus was not divine in the way that trinitarians make out to be.
No one spoke about the holy spirit being God, co equal and co eternal and independent with the Father and the Son in the first 300 years, that discussion is completely gone.
So this is quite interesting, ladies and gentlemen, you know why? Because you could say from this, that were the Islamic position of the non divinity of Jesus and the non divinity of the Holy Spirit
was represented in the early church than I see in Trinitarian position was not quite Say that one more time.
He wants to hear it. Okay. Where the Islamic position
of the non divinity
of Jesus Christ was present. And the non divinity of the Holy Spirit was present in early Christian church history, the Nicene
Trinitarian understanding of the post Constantinople creed was not prove me wrong.
Prove me wrong. Give me one person for the first 300 years of church history, that detailed, co equal co eternal, independent Father, Son, Holy Spirit, give me silence me, prove me wrong. I want to be proven wrong today. I want to be proven wrong to be silence me.
Tell me one church father for the first 300 years of church history that said the Holy Spirit was co equal, co eternal, independent with the Father and Son, please, please give me the Give me the records is a historical investigation. Just give me one I will be quiet. I will apologize. I will apologize in front of everyone.
I will apologize in front of everyone. Yes.
Now,
it gets a little bit more sticky than that. Because if you look at a book called The Christian doctrines, early Christian doctrines by Jane de Kelly, conservative Christian scholar, he details exactly how the Trinitarian Nicene Trinitarian thing came about. If you look at chapter five is a very interesting read, go and read it. It says that you had for example, Athanasius, who was a very ardent Trinitarian, around nicean times, and then you have Henry, Pontius they were advocating the Trinitarian position. Then you have the capital Shin fathers, who are Greg Gregory of Nissan's, yes, Gregory of Nyssa. And Basil the Great and they both have the so called great, they are the ones who
advanced the Trinitarian position. The question is who gave those guys the authority to interpret texts like this?
And to overrule all the things that came before why. Now
the last thing I want to talk about is the rationality of the Trinity because this has to be mentioned. Now the Trinity as Thomas Jefferson mentioned, is an unintelligible is what he says. An unintelligible idea of platonic mysticisms that three one
it's a contradiction Ladies and gentlemen, that you have Father almighty son almighty. Holy Spirit is almighty but they're not all boxes but one almighty.
That's a contradiction. That's why random
For Ross wrote in his book common sense Christianity, talking about the hypostatic Union, because now you have Jesus, who's 100%, man, and 100%. God,
tell me what is a contradiction? If that isn't, it's like saying x is 100% a square and 100% a circle.
random forests, a dismiss this is impossible. I can't believe this is a Christian.
Now, as is mentioned in minutes left in the introduction, in the introduction, he mentioned that David Wood is part of the evangelical Christian Philosophical Society, his Boston superior, someone called Paul copan, Paul copan, wrote a whole thing talking about because talking about social trinitarianism. And basically he tries to reason in the same way as he did in his previous debate, by the way, with Shibboleth, he says, look, the way it works is, he said, Look, I'm a being an European. Yes, I am Muhammad hijab. I'm a being a human being. David was a human being,
how is differentiated from him? That's what he said, how it differentiated from. This is the idea that Paul copan and William Lane Craig and these social trinitarians, believing that how is differentiated from him?
That's not correct. That's false. You know why? Because you can only differentiate from how from who, when you have a multiplicity of instantiations in any given genus, so that one more time when you have a multiplicity of instantiations, in any given genus, in any given class, let me tell you, I mean, I can't differentiate between me Mohammed Higa. And David works,
unless the two of us, because if there was one human being the how the who would be the the what,
if there was one human being the who would be the what and the what would be the, there would be no differentiation, you have to establish now, and this is the third thing I want to say, how you can have a differentiation from who and how, without having a multiplicity of instantiations in any given genus.
Which means you have to admit first that there was more than one God for you to differentiate between them as persons. And by the way, this is an unbiblical unscriptural thing, the differentiation between a person and a being it's an unbiblical thing, I would like to see if it is in the Bible, where it is in the Bible.
So just to summarize what I've said, because I've only got three minutes left.
These are the questions I want the answers to today. Question one.
Why is it that in the Old Testament, you do not find the Trinity mentioned or inferred?
And if it wasn't first, why haven't the rabbi's the Jewish scholars for 4000 years of Hebrew history, and
that's question one. Question two.
How is it the case? That if the Trinity is explicit in the New Testament, that for 300 years of church history Nicene trinitarianism, was not inferred by the Church Fathers?
Question three, were Give me one person of the first 300 years that says that the Holy Spirit was co eternal, co equal independent with God's one name. I will apologize in front of everyone today. Yes, I will apologize. Question four.
How is it the case?
That How can you rationalize this contradiction of the Trinity? When you have a hypostatic Union? Someone who is 100% man and 100% God, are you telling me to believe in a squared circle today, sir?
Is that is that what you have for me? You want me to become a Trinitarian square circle and then you have another thing. The father is almighty the son is almighty the Holy Spirit Almighty the Quran refuses chapter 23 verse 91, bla bla bla bla bla bla. But if this was the case, they would have tried to outstrip each other deal with the Quranic argument you'd like to attack the Quran, you will see today that the Quranic argument will suffocate you. It will suffocate you.
Number five, one minute left.
In fact, I think four questions is a lot for this man. If you could do with four, I'll be grateful to him. I want to say one thing, before I came by, you might be thinking, why are you being quite firm with this man today?
You know, James White, he's a very respectable scholar of Christianity. And he's a good man. Yes, he is. And he refuted this man because of his mockery, smart mix documentaries against Muslims.
And he refuted him on the basis of a verse in the Bible. First Peter chapter three verse
15 where it says Be respectful and honorable. What is the point of causing social cohesion?
What is the point of attacking people making a documentary of Muslims drawing the Prophet putting them in the thumbnail all those things? And you know it's going to offend the Muslim community isn't a high time at the age of
isn't that high time at the age of Islam of five seconds and racism that we stopped This was salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah.
Thank you very much
for that wonderful opening statement. And now without further ado, we have Dr. David Wood with his first 20 minutes of opening statement.
He gently Jim this thing in there.
All right, I'll just leave it like I can overcome that strength.
All right. Well, good evening, I'd like to thank Mohammed had job for challenging me to this debate and for crossing the Atlantic Ocean so that we can share our thoughts with you. I'd also like to thank grassroots dolla and the Muslim Students Association, and all the other groups that were involved in organizing and planning and hosting.
My prediction is that tonight we'll be what, what young people call, epic.
See, now what's the difference between the Trinity and tell him?
Well, one is admittedly so utterly confusing that people wonder how it can possibly be true. The other is the Trinity.
Yes, you're going to find out that
I think that the doctrine of Tel heat, which oddly enough, we didn't hear much about, and Mohammed had jobs opening statement, I'm convinced that the doctrine of telehealth, at least as it was taught by Muhammad, is vastly more confusing than we hear about today. So let's compare them. And we'll start with the Trinity. Why do Christians believe in the doctrine of the Trinity?
We believe it because we are forced into this view by the Triune God, not because of church councils, the church councils were forced into that view, by the triune. God.
for Christians, we have certain amount of data that we work with everyone has some data, right? We look around we see the world we see that it's organized in certain ways. We know that there's a moral law. There are hundreds of millions of people in the world today who believe that they have witnessed miracles, all of this helps us formulate a concept of God. But Christians also have the scriptures, the Old Testament and the New Testament. And when we start reading the scriptures, things get very interesting very quickly.
So these are the first two verses of the Bible long before Christians came along. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
So we've got God, but then there's a distinction that says, and the Spirit of God was
hovering over the face of the waters.
Later in the same chapter, opening chapter of the Bible, verse 26, we read, then God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. Now two obvious questions, one, who was he talking to? And to Why does he say let us plural make man plural, I mean, make man in Our plural image?
The plural of majesty, right? Well, the Jews didn't use the plural of majesty. So why is he using this? It's just a mystery so far.
We don't know yet. But as we continue reading, the mystery gets deeper. In Isaiah nine, six, the prophet delivers a prophecy.
For to us a child is born to us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulder. And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Father of eternity, Prince of Peace. A child is born, a son is given and this child is said to be the Mighty God, how's a child going to be? The Mighty God?
In Isaiah chapter 48, verse 16, Yaqui is speaking Yaqui is the speaker. And he says, draw near to me hear this from the beginning. I have not spoken
And secret from the time it came to be I have been there. And now the Lord God has sent me and his spirit
Yahuwah is speaking and Yaqui says that he has been sent by Yaqui along with the spirit of Yahoo.
How can God be sent by God along with the Spirit of God? Well, we just don't know. Still later and the Old Testament is Zechariah 1210 Yaqui as again speaking, and he says, I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me and the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son Yaqui will pour out a spirit which causes people to repent, and they will look on Yaqui, whom they have pierced, and mourn for him as one grieves for a lost son. How can
an immaterial God be pierced?
Unless he takes on a body?
So the Old Testament concludes, and leaves us with a lot of questions about how to reconcile the claim that there is only one God with
some intriguing hints at plurality.
Then Jesus comes along.
Jesus tells his followers that he's the final Judge of all people, even though the Old Testament says that Yaqui is the final Judge of all people.
Jesus says that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection. Even though the Old Testament says that Yaqui is the one who raises the dead at the resurrection.
Jesus calls himself the Lord of the Sabbath, he claims to be the Lord of the Prophet David, he claims to be the I am of the Exodus, he claims to be greater than God's temple. Jesus tells us that he has an absolutely unique relationship with the Father, that he can answer prayers that he's present wherever his followers are gathered, that he is with his followers forever, and that he has all authority in heaven and on earth, even makes the startling declaration that All things that the Father has our mind.
But Jesus also prays to the Father, and He claims to be from the Father. Why would Jesus make claims that only God can make it also be drawing attention to God as the Father,
john 14 through 16, Jesus says that after he returns to the Father, He and the Father will together send the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is sent. And yet, as we've seen, the spirit was with the father at creation. Psalm 104, verse 30, says that the Spirit creates the universe. The spirit is omniscient in First Corinthians, omnipresence, and Psalm 139, and eternal in Hebrews nine. These are divine attributes, and yet the spirit is distinct from the Father,
and the Son. So what do we do with all of this? Well, if the father is God, the son is God. And the Spirit is God, the Father is not the Son, and the son is not the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the father.
And there's only one God, the Trinity is the only way out. And that's why I said that we were forced into this view, by the triune, God Himself.
Now, my Muslim friends tell me that this concept of God is absurd, even though we got it from God through the missions of the Sun and the spirit.
My Muslim friends tell me that I should reject this confusing concept of God, and believe in something much simpler the Islamic concept of God.
But I've been going through your sources for a good little while now. And I see some serious problems with the doctrine of towhee. Let me give you a few examples. First, Allah praise. People ask Jesus is God. Why does he pray?
I have to remind them that we're trinitarians makes perfect sense for the son to speak to the Father. makes much less sense given the Islamic concept of God for a lot to pray, and sort of 33 verse 56 of the Quran we read, surely Allah and His angels, pray for the Prophet. Oh, you who believe. Pray for him and salute him with a worthy salutation. Allah and His angels. Pray for the Prophet. translators try to hide this by translating it as a line His angels Send blessings or show mercy or they praise Him. The problem here is that what it says a lot does his salah
and you know what? That
Means you know there are perfectly good Arabic ways of saying all of those other things. Every Arab speaker in the world knows that Salah means prayer and it says that Allah does salon. So who is Allah praying to?
Second according to the Quran,
most of our laws parts will die.
The Quran and the Hadith refer to a loss face his hands too right hands and fat, fingers, waist, Shin feet and so on. Now there's a tendency to interpret scriptural statements about God's bodily parts. Figuratively, if we say God's eyes see everything. No one thinks we're saying that God has eyeballs. But there are Muslim. Muslim scholars themselves are the ones who are arguing that descriptions of a laws face and hands and feet and so on have to be interpreted literally. Not simply anthropomorphic Lee 10 minutes left.
So Allah has a literal face, literal hands and so on.
And yet, we read in the Quran Surah 28, verse 88, everything will perish
except allows face
which means if you are if you are taking these parts literally and the only thing that survives is Allah's face, then allows face has different attributes from the rest of his parts. perishable versus imperishable.
Third, the Quran
is an eternal person.
While orthodox Islamic theology insists that the Quran is the uncreated speech of Allah and co eternal with Allah, that would be interesting enough. We can't forget that according to Muhammad, the Quran is also a person who intercedes for Muslims. And so he Muslim 1874 Mohammed says to his companions, recite the Quran, for it will come on the Day of Resurrection, interceding for its companions. How can I book intercede for people? Mohammed explains in Muslim Ahmed and soon an urban module where he says the Quran will meet its companion on the Day of Resurrection when his grave is open for him in the form of a pale man.
The Quran will say to him, Do you recognize me he will say I do not recognize you, it will say I am your companion the Quran, who kept you thirsty on hot days and kept you awake at night.
So the Quran, which is eternal and uncreated appears as a pale man speaks to Muslims and then speaks to a law on their behalf. Again, this person is pale man is eternal.
Fourth, the Quran isn't just personal. It's multi personal, and I hear from Muslims that that's impossible.
Even though the Quran is an eternal person who appears as a pale man and intercedes for Muslims, there are actually multiple persons within the one nature of the Quran.
And Sunnah Nava
1400. Mohammed said, there is a surah in the Quran, which consists of 30 verses is referring to Surah Al mulk. It will intercede for its companion until he is forgiven.
So a specific chapter of the Quran can appear and intercede for those who read it.
But Mohammed isn't done.
So he Muslim 1874 he tells his followers to recite sort of Baka and start out and run because these sources will come as two flocks of birds on the Day of Resurrection, pleading on behalf of the Muslims who recited them.
Since Mohammed mentions three different sorts of the Quran, which have their own distinct personalities, their own knowledge, think we can say that all of the sources of the Quran have their own distinct personalities. The Quran Muslims read today is thus one in essence as the word of Allah, but 114 in person, the personal chapters come as flocks of birds pleading on behalf of Muslims, I see lots of Muslims smiling and laughing at this is what your Prophet said, Your prophet.
I think it's funny too, but I try to I try to try to hide that a little bit.
Fifth,
the multi personal Quran has a mother.
Christians claim that Jesus is the Son of God. The Quran responds sort of six verse 101. How can I have a son when he has no wife?
Notice that the Quran assertion assumes that filial terms talk terms referring to offspring have to be interpreted in a biological sense. Well, if we can only understand these terms biologically, we have to ask about the Qurans mother, Sir 13 verse 39. A lot blots out what He wills and confirms what He wills
And with him is the mother of the book, whom Al Kitab
the Quran, his mother is in the Presence of Allah, I would normally be happy with some metaphorical meaning of something like that. But it's the Quran itself, which says that we have to interpret claims about Jesus being the son of God biologically. So, if we have to interpret these claims biologically then I have to say, if the Quran has a mommy,
who's the daddy,
six, Allah's spirit,
who is eternal, and the CO creator of life
is a person. according to Islamic theology, nothing that is a part of Allah or that originates from within Allah is created. But the Quran says that a lot breathes out His Spirit. This means that like Allah has eternal speech, the spirit comes from within Allah and is thus uncreated and eternal.
A law creates man and sort of 15 by fashioning a body out of clay, men breathing a spirit. The Quran says that Allah strengthens Jesus by the Spirit and that, that he strengthens all true believers with the spirit.
But the spirit is a conscious agent who can appear in the form of a man the spirit appears to Mary and speaks to her and sort of 19 and then breathes into her just as Allah breathed into clay to create Adam.
So the spirit is an uncreated eternal co creator who is sent by Allah in the form of a man to perform certain tasks. And if he can
strengthen believers, wherever they are, he would have to be omnipresent. Some divine attributes all over the place here.
Seven Islam
deifies Mohammed.
When Muhammad would spit, his companions would rush to collect the spit and they would rub it on their faces.
They would struggle to have to save his use of blue ocean water. If a hair fell off his head, they would rush to grab it. After the Battle of boyhood, Muhammad's companions man named Malik,
collected the blood that ran from Mohammed's wound and drank it. Mohammed said, the fire will never touch you.
This isn't how you treat someone you regard as a mere human being.
Today, however, no one can drink Muhammad's blood or rub his saliva on their faces. But Muslims still address him directly in their prayers.
Most of the time, and Muslims are praying they're reciting words that are directed towards Allah.
But there's a part of their daily prayers where they say Assalamu alayka, Johan the BU.
Now that does not mean God please bless Muhammad.
That is Peace be upon you, Muhammad. They're speaking they're laughing and they're speaking directly to Mohammed in their daily prayers. They're talking directly to Muhammad. in their daily prayer. This assumes that he can hear them and so here's them all over the world in which case he must be omnipresent, interesting for a mere human being.
Eighth, Islam deifies. Jesus, without even realizing it. Allah is uncreated and eternal that as we've seen, there are two uncreated and eternal persons with Allah His Word has eternal speech, and the Spirit that He breathes out. And yet and sort of for verse 171, even when the Quran is asserting that he's only a prophet, it refers to Jesus as Allah's word, and as a spirit from Allah. As if this weren't enough, Jesus goes on to create life, in exactly the same way a lot creates like a lot fashions a man out of clay and then breathes his spirit into it. What does Jesus do? He fashions a clay bird,
and then breathes his spirit into it. And this gives life. Jesus his co creator. No wonder his followers started worshipping a
knife. Islamic worship draws extensively from the polytheism of seventh century Arabia.
During the time of Muhammad, the polytheists of Arabia would perform to walk walking circles around the Kaaba. Why did they do that? Because they were following Abraham.
No, they believed in seven planetary deities who circled the earth. And so they walked seven circles around the Kaaba in order to honor these seven planetary deities. Muslims do the same today but not realizing where the practice came from.
There's also the black stone.
This was one of the pagan idols that became part of Islam, you kiss it and it can be an expiation for your sins, but according to Muhammad, the black stone
itself is conscious. One minute left, we read and tirmidhi and Eben maza. The Messenger of Allah said concerning the stone, by Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection. And we'll have two eyes with which it will see. And a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favor of those who touched it in sincerity. So this isn't a random, lifeless, idle, this is a living, breathing, idle.
So in the Quran, we've got a lot of swearing by literally
everything, we'll be talking about that in a little in a few moments.
Given that we find these things in the Muslim sources.
I'm truly interested in how we can sit here and poke fun at the doctrine of the Trinity. Now, the real basis I find for reconciling these texts with the doctrine of tawheed is a Muslim scholars. Don't let you know this stuff, which is why you think it's funny when you're hearing it. Time is up.
Now we're gonna start our second part, which is the 12 minute rebuttal. Going versus Mr. Mohammed hijab, and we can go ahead.
I think they would have said some career ending embarrassing statements today. I mean, to be honest with you.
After 20 years of researching Islam, you come with this. Okay, let's do with one one by one.
Spirits of Gods hovered over the hovered over after the God created the heavens and the earth. Okay, no problem. If it's not meant to be God, no problem. Let's go to Zacharias, an Old Testament, chapter six, verse five, there are four spirits. So there are seven Gods now, because the word in Hebrew is wrong. And you wouldn't know about Hebrew because look, I think,
not only do you not know Arabic, but you don't know Hebrew, and you're making a big mistake by trying to interpret the biblical text in this way. There's two words for spirits in Hebrew language, which is the same as the Arabic and the word was here in Zechariah, chapter six, verse five, talking about four spirits. So tell us why if there is a spirit, and it's got them How comes there's only three gods, three persons of God. And, and there isn't seven, for example, he says,
that for that Jesus. This is called the etymology fallacy. That's, you know, it's been referred to as Emmanuel, etc. God is with us. Elijah is also the word Elijah, and in the Hebrew language means God is with us. So if if that makes Jesus God, then Elijah is also a God, we move on.
What else did he say? I am statement. If you look at the New International Version of the Bible,
the aim is actually not translated as I am, but I will be. And there's a whole discussion on that. And to be honest with you, frankly, I don't even take the gospel of john to be completely authoritative and neither do the majority of biblical scholars anyways. 95 ad
it's a long way. He says, Allah says
that Allah you suddenly Allenby, and he's here saying that he prays to the Prophet there's a difference between you suddenly Lahore and you suddenly Allah in the Arabic language, I knew this was going to happen.
I knew I was gonna have to give you a free Arabic lesson here today.
I knew and that's why the translators but for not to the Prophet you don't know what the words in Arabic mean? Don't speak Salah does it come on? Please don't embarrass yourself. Allah has pots. He says Muslim scholars say we should take this literally. Which Muslim scholars
which Muslim scholars? He says colusa in halachot law and social causes chapter 20 of the Quran means everything is destroyed except for his face. And this means that Allah all his body parts will be destroyed. He has body parts and these things. First of all, the word cool in Arabic doesn't necessarily mean all Sukira book akula methadone. And he said and he shows with examples that the word cool doesn't mean all I'll give you an example in chapter 46 of the Quran. So to have to the miracle Lucia in Vietnam,
for us bajo la Ilaha Gama Sakina. Home, that the wind destroyed everything cliche, the same words here in sort of classes. Everything was destroyed except for the houses if it meant every single thing it wouldn't have been the houses would not be there. So it was cool. It doesn't mean that in Arabic language once again, it's a problem with language.
He says, This is exactly his words. He said the Quran is eternal person. Tell me what's called in the history of Islam who said that this is a lie.
He says the Quran is a you have to it will come as a trophy on the Day of Judgment. So if this is the question, I'll put it better for you, I'll help you. Yeah. If the Quran is an attribute of God, how can it intercede for you? This is what he's saying, right? It's a good question. This is a good question. But it's not a proper understanding of the Hadith. This is the only good question you had. I'll give it to you this the only good question you have the Hadith says Ecuador Al Quran.
So it's not that the Quran ie the attribute of Allah that will intercede for you on the Day of Judgment, but it is your Quran of the Quran and that you get the Quran which means the reward you get from the citation of the Quran, not the Quran as an attribute of Allah.
He says, Therefore, is 114 verses of the Quran to coqui fallacy to coqui fallacy. I told you, he would do it and appeal to hypocrisy. So hey, are you admitting that having more than one person of a being of God is wrong? Because you should lead to trinitarianism then, but obviously, as we know, there's no one in the history of Islam that refer to the source of the Quran as persons This is wrong. You don't know about Islam, he being educated.
He said, Well, I'm sorry, but he didn't know the Arabic but I'm going to give him the Arabic and chapter six verse 108 of the Quran. But lots of antalet says that Allah does not have a mate. So does this mean what does this mean? That biological they had a discussion about biological really intruding? How can you ever be gotten son there's only three options. Number one, biology number two, adoption and number three metaphor. And if you say it's not biology, and it's not adoption, it must be a metaphor. So Jesus is not a son of God.
Okay.
And then he says that the prophets they played, you know, they tried to get his hair and the spit and these things, okay, well, if you think spitting on someone makes you a god. Well, that's what a implies. And I wonder why you look at every other verse of the Bible as implying that Jesus was God because for you.
That's, that's making me a God now.
I mean,
don't embarrass yourself in front of me.
Assalamu alaikum. I said, this means that he's interceding because it's a narrative voice as salaam alaikum. We say this every time it's a narrative voice. However, let's not say it's a narrative voice. Let's give it to him. He says, this must mean that the Prophet Mohammed is omnipresent. Yes, he's omnipresent. Let's let's have fun with him today. There is a hadith in Bukhari, which says that whenever one person does Salah on the nebby, which means blessings, and prays on the Prophet, blessings on the Prophet, the angel will carry that and give it to him. It doesn't mean that he's hearing it everywhere. The angel is moving around. This is from the will of Allah. And if you didn't
know that, no, you do.
He says that kalama to LA the eyes have been referred to as the word of Allah must mean that he is divine. So although the Quran says clearly that he's not a divine, no, it makes a mistake. He is divine. You're all over the place. You're fumbling all over the place. It's embarrassing. Kenny Matala is, is defined in chapter three verse 68 of the Quran, where Allah subhanaw taala says in them as allies and ally and the like Ms. Lee, Adam, Holloman Tobin from makalah.
Fire Kuhn, five minutes left, he said to him Be and he was the word is defined as B. So Allah says B and things are just like he said, Be with Adam. He said, be with Jesus. And he was.
He says that there are seven planetary things in Arabia and these things. I mean, how can you make a judgement? First of all, I haven't got a reference for that. I didn't see a referee didn't say yes, I give you a reference here. It says the quality whatever, even if he's got a reference, how do you know that the practice originated from that, and not from Abraham? After all, Abraham even in the Old Testament? Yes, he existed pre existed before Jesus, even though you have, you know, the physical Jesus, and he was there in the desert. And you have in the book of Psalms mentioned of pilgrimage. So, if this is the case, that I wonder why this is mentioned, oh, this is, I think this
is all that you kind of mentioned.
I want to give you one principle Ladies and gentlemen, that will destroy everything he said. The Quran says chapter 42, verse 11, laser chemistry he shared with me Allah says that there is nothing like him, you cannot do to be or 10 feet of Allah. Anything that we see in the Quran, talking about the hand talking about the face, all of these things, you can rest assured because of this verse and the other verse will allow for now had that this means yes, this means it cannot be compared to anything you imagine. led to the collapse
in the Quran anyways, I mean, every Muslim knows this. But the idea is implicit admission here that I've lost. This is this is what I come up with.
I've lost yes we know trinitarianism so confusing, but I'm going to show you how much you know to hate is confusing as all I have admitted defeat. Therefore I'm going down I'm going down and we'll try and take you down with me. That's that's really what you're trying to say to me. David would no but look at your face. You totally agree with me. Let's be honest because face everyone, ladies and gentlemen. Take a look at his face. Yes. Anyways, I've got a few minutes left. Let me recite some Quran because I've done with this guy. Allah subhanaw taala
he says in chapter number 19, verse number 31,
about Jesus's what we believe about Jesus.
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This is what Allah says in the Quran. Listen to it, tell me if this is not a better model for you. Be honest, this is Jesus. He says, I am the slave of Allah of God. He gave me the book and he made me a prophet. Just like in chapter eight of Mark, verse one minute left, yes. 48 people thought Jesus was a prophet in the Old Testament in the New Testament, in the time of Jesus when he was alive.
Jelani Mubarak an enema content he made me blessed wherever I am.
This is what we believe of Jesus. He made me bless it wherever I am.
You know? Well, suddenly, we saw that he was a Katy metal to hire, and he told me to pray and to give charity so long as I'm alive.
You know?
This is what we believe about Jesus Christ. What about non duality? I was good with my mother. While I'm happy, I wasn't an arrogant person. Well, Somalia,
and peace be upon me the day I was born, and the day I die, and the day I will come back to life. That is Jesus, son of Mary, the one who you
before we start on, Dr. David woods, rebuttal, I just like to remind
our audience verbal cheering is please please refrain from verbal cheering clapping is sufficient enough. And we just like to remind both speakers to stay on topic and be respectful towards the other speaker. Thank you. And Dr. Davila, do you have the floor?
Thank you again, Mohammed. In my opening statement, I
laid out a basic case for the doctrine of the Trinity. And I claimed that the Islamic concept of God is more confusing than what we're normally told.
I pointed out that a lot of praise and he said, Well, there's a difference in the meaning of the verb here. Well, the Quran says repeatedly that Allah praise and guess what?
He prays in the Hadith as well. And what's interesting, is there even Muslim translators who are acknowledging this and translating these passages as Allah praise so I surely I've got a ton of Islamic books Translated by her respected around the world.
From Riyadh, as Celine
the Messenger of Allah said Allah and His angels and the people of the heavens and the earth, even the ants in their rocks and the fish pray for blessings on those who teach
People good.
So Allah praise hoozy praying to
Allah Hadeeth l could see, translated again by a Muslim translator. Hadith number 216. The Israelites said to Moosa does your Lord pray?
Musa said, Fear Allah Oh sons of Israel? Allah said, Oh Musa, what did your people say? was just said, oh my lord, you already know. They said, Does your Lord pray? Allah said, tell them my prayer for my servants is that my mercy should precede my anger. If it were not, so I would have destroyed them.
Allah praise that his mercy will triumph over his wrath. Now if Allah is praying, but he's praying for self control here, apparently right, he wants to punish them, but he prays for self control.
This is not me. This is these are your Hudson, your translators translating these passages Allah praying. Why? Because that's what Salah means.
If I'm wrong, give me give me the linguistic basis for saying otherwise.
Second, I said that Allah has various parts, but only his face is imperishable, which means that different parts of law have different attributes.
That's just what it says. It says, everything will perish, except his face. So if you're interpreting the parts as literal parts, we've just got a problem here, right? And it gives the qualification in saying everything will perish. And I understand it can say, you know, everything, that's everything that it's saying that everything perishes, except his face, it's drawing the only the only exception there, which would mean that certain parts are
parts with different attributes, unless allowed, just not clear in his Quran, which he claims to be clear over and over again.
Third, I said that the Quran is an eternal person. These allows Eternal Word, but he also takes the form of a pale man. Now, it's kind of hard to hear, because over there, but I think Mohammed replied that it's your own recitation that appears to you. That's interesting enough, if your own recitation of the Quran is a is appearing as a pale man. But
I don't think that's what it means because of the next point, which is that individual chapters of the Quran, appear as flocks of birds to intercede for you. So if individual chapters of the Quran are appearing and pleading for you, then why wouldn't the entire Quran as a whole also be appearing to you? So it seems that it's not just talking about your own good recitation or something like that. But the book itself he says, I am the Quran.
Now, by the way, this is a very interesting,
and I think it might be a source of problem here.
Mohammed says, well, who refers to these Quran chapters as persons. And I think there's a little difficulty here, this might be why he's having trouble understanding the doctrine of the Trinity, if he's if he's misunderstanding this word, person here and how its applied.
If a flock of birds can talk, and has knowledge, and this flock of birds knows what you've been doing, they know that you've been reciting the Quran. They intercede for you, they plead to Allah on your behalf.
Well, those are qualities of what we call a person in philosophy, right? It's communicating like that it has it has certain kinds of knowledge and it appeals to people in certain way. This is what we mean by the term person. And by the way, because we're talking about origins of Islamic practices, if you
go to the early Islamic history,
there were goddesses, there were many people in Arabia who believed in
in a kind of hierarchy, right, where they believed in Allah and they believe that Allah was the main deity, but they believed in lower deities, and these were intercessors. Now a lot of loosen magnets, were three goddesses. And they were called the exalted cranes. They were the birds that would carry your prayers to Allah or they would fly up to Allah and intercede for you. And why is this interesting? Well, the goddesses are described in terms of birds who go and intercede for you.
But Muhammad, after introducing tauheed says that it's actually chapters of the Quran that do that for you. Now, they appear as flocks of birds to go up to Allah and intercede for you.
Now, if I asked any Muslim in here, hey, if someone believes that there's God and then there are these other beings who intercede and fly up to him and enter in and intercede for you and please
for you is that polytheism and monotheism, every Muslim would say that's polytheism. Okay, well if there are these flocks of birds around,
and they are the eternal speech of Allah and they fly up and intercede for you and they plead on your behalf, what is that? It's pure monotheism.
Very interesting.
He says, No one refers to the Quran as a person or chapters of the Quran as a person, again, if you understand how we use the term, that should end the confusion.
As for the Quran, having a mother whom Alcatel
he pointed out that, well, if you're if you're saying it's not literally biological, then you must be saying it's merely metaphorical. And no, not in the Jewish or Christian scriptures. Son of is used in a variety of ways. And so the appropriate
the appropriate response to Christian theology would be explained to you explain to us what Jesus sonship means, and that will be explained in terms of the doctrine of the Trinity. But no Christian has ever meant
that Jesus is the biological Son of the Father. So if Allah is telling Muslims in the Quran, and I bring this up, because I hear this from Muslims almost every day, well, how can you believe that God had sex with Mary? Well, never heard of a Christian believing that? Where are you getting that idea from getting it from the Quran from Allah? So the point here is, if Allah knows what the Christian doctrine is, why doesn't allow, say what the Christian doctrine is, and then explain why it's wrong. He just never does. Allah tries to refute the Trinity doesn't know what the doctrine of the Trinity is. He thinks it's, it's a law, Jesus and Mary, who are three separate beings who just work
together.
That's not the doctrine of the Trinity. What's he responding to? Likewise, with the sonship of Jesus, he gets it all wrong.
So you've got a problem here, either your God doesn't know what we believe,
in which case, he lacks knowledge, or he does know what we believe and he's deliberately making fun of it or misrepresenting it.
If he's deliberately misrepresenting it, then that would be an ethical problem.
Six I said that Allah's spirit is an eternal person who takes the form of a man to carry out tasks. Again, I'm having trouble hearing down there. If there was a response to that, please remind me.
Seventh, I said that Islam deifies Muhammad
said, Well, you know, Mohammed, spitting and stuff doesn't What's that got to do with him being gone? That's not that's not the point.
The point was Mohammed's just a man the Mohammed's just a man Mohammed's just a man. And then you see how his followers acted towards him. And it's clear, he was much more than a Manton. When a normal human being is walking down the street and Spitz you don't say, Oh, I have to rub this all over my body, Muhammad's companions did. If a hair falls off a normal human beings head, you don't say, Oh, I need to grab this. I need to save this. If someone is bleeding, a normal human being is bleeding. You don't say, hey, let me get that running blood and drink it.
This was acceptable behavior from Muhammad and his followers.
And how if you saw anyone doing this, if I said, hey, there's this place somewhere in South America or something, and they've got this guy down there. And whenever he spits, they rub it on their faces. Whenever he washes himself, they collect the water so they can rub it on themselves. Whenever he bleeds, he gets cut, they drink it, you say, Oh, look at this idolatry. Look at this paganism. That's exactly how Mohammed expected his followers to act. And for some reason, whenever it's in Islam, it's still just pure monotheism.
I said that Islam, accidentally deifies Jesus calls Jesus allows word and a spirit from Allah. Now keep in mind those are the two eternal, co creating co eternal beings with Allah, His Word and His Spirit. Now this is interesting.
Mohammed said, Mohammed had Job said that the Quran calls Jesus the word because Allah said Be and he was. So law said Be and he was and this makes him allows word. Now that's very interesting because according to chapter 16, verse 40 of the Quran that's how a lot creates everything.
That's how a lot creates me.
So Allah created me by saying V and according to Mohammed who job that's how you can identify someone as the word of Allah. What's that make me
I am the word of Allah according to Mohammed a job. So if you reject anything left if you reject anything,
I'd say for the rest of the evening, you're guilty of rebelling against allowes word.
As far as Islam, drawing its worship from
his basic practices from the pagans of Mecca, really noticed, you can read in the Muslim sources that the pagans are walking in circles and kissing the black stone, and so on. You can also read that they believe in these seven planetary deities that are circling the earth, so you can read all about their worship. What you have to believe, if you want to reconcile this with Islam is you have to say, Abraham set that up walking the seven circles, and then the pagans misinterpreted it at some point. And they started walking seven circles around the Kaaba for a completely different reason. So you'd have to believe that and then as far as the black stone, well, it was a black stone, and then
it became part of their pagan worship and then got brought back but keep in mind, this is
a rock that is going to appear with eyes and a mouth and you kiss it.
Thank you very much, Dr. David work.
Now we're going to enter into our second phase of rebuttals which each speaker will have eight minutes each. You can go ahead and Mr. Hamada, he mentioned again, this issue of Salalah Allah and I've told you the difference i don't know i kept repeating it. He says person will try and do this in three minutes. Yeah. He says person.
This This shows you that the swappa he thinks he says he thinks this means that the chapters of the Quran are persons. I want to I've always wanted to do this. You have to take a word from Dwayne The Rock Johnson. It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what you think.
flock of birds and the man who comes the pail man, yes, this is in good deeds. And this proves my point once again, that the color of the Quran is what is represented the web you get the rewards for doing the good and it comes that's what the Hadith is talking about. The man comes in in a good form. This is the Hadith in Bukhari.
He says Allah will also
come as birds, intercession means policy ism. Well, Mandela, the founder, one elaborated me chapter two, verse 254, on who will intercede with God except with His permission. It's one part of a verse which refutes all of your claims about intercession. In fact, he says all means mother, it doesn't only mean Mother, don't tell me about the Arabic language. You asked me about Arabic language in this in this forum. You asked me you don't tell me you asked Mohammed. What does the word mean? You don't tell me it means this. I tell you, it means mother. Yes. It doesn't only mean mother, we say
the main books, it means something foundational omokoroa says the main cities Come on, man. Don't waste my time with this. He says.
So he said he actually asked me for something linguistic. He said what's the linguistic basis that the word Sala, what is what does it come from? etymologically. The word salad comes from the word sila. Silla means connection. So it can be any connection. It doesn't necessarily always have to be prayer. And the word actually Salam is
yes, this is the root word but it comes from the etymological root word sila, which means connection, it could mean any connection similar to ROM, for example, connecting with your family members, you don't know these things. He says the Quran gets the Trinity wrong. And he's talking about chapter five, verse 116, of the Quran where it talks about, did you tell your mother that you can take two of us as loads beside God? It's not talking about the Trinity in this verse, where does it say this is the Trinity and that describe it? The only the verses that describe the Trinity for example, chapter four, verse 171, of the Quran, other places the Quran, like chapter five with the
brother was reading. It never tells you what the Trinity is, which is why for example, many scholars come to me and as a job of so many scholars actually did say the Trinity was Father Son, the Holy Spirit, but some scholars differ with them in exegesis It doesn't matter. The word three in Arabic Salah that means all of the kinds of Trinity's or all of the Christians have ever believed in it all of history. So the West seles and Arabic is all comprehensive. It doesn't say that the word Trinity is married. It doesn't say that the Quran you have light against the Quran. And then he says in
the last panel, this you have to understand basic basic rules of grammar of Arabic.
But not Allah Nakata lemons, a camel of Allah is another person, I'll help you I will help you. It means it means
Actually, I'm not gonna go into it, to be honest with you. It is a go to a basic Arabic. You know, textbook, what is the first thing that Arabic students learn? Let's not waste my time with this, please. You've come here 20 years of research and it's what you present. Don't waste my time. It says Islam
accidentally defies Jesus, because he is Kalamata law. Why does the Quran calling the kalama because it's stressing the fact that Allah said B and he was
to make an emphasis, a point of emphasis for Christians who believe otherwise.
And then the pagans, pagan sources he didn't give any now realize Ladies and gentlemen, this man put Christianity under the bus.
He threw Christianity under the bus today. I asked him for questions. None of those questions were answered.
None of those questions were answered.
Is the Trinity in 300 years? If it is a basic natural inference of the Old Testament, how could you have 4000 years of Hebrew history? No one has inferred it. If it's a natural reading of the New Testament, how comes you have 300 years 300 years? And no church father believed in Nicene trinitarianism the way that you believe today? Why are you black projecting anachronistically superimposing
this idea that was advanced and crystallized by the Catholic ocean fathers and 381, putting it and forcing it, you're the one forcing, forcing it on the New Testament? More egregiously, you're forcing it in the Old Testament, you have, you have done a shameful service today for the for the Christians, you have not defended Christianity Today, you should have brought James White with you or someone like that. Seriously, you should have brought someone who could have helped you, you are saying me and Adnan and Ali, versus you, man, you should have brought someone was you seriously, what's going on here? 20 years of attacking Islam, 20 years of attacking Islam. 99% of your content
is anti Islam. And all of those things you brought today were dismissed in four minutes.
You couldn't handle the questioning? I gave you.
I gave you four questions. I did the service of answering all of your questions. You didn't even answer one of mine. How dare you?
What is this seriously? And the reason why, once again, I apologize to all the other Christians here. Why this man is made mockumentaries against Islam. He's attacked Muslims and aggravated Muslims. We know his story. He's not any regular Christian, ladies and gentlemen, the classes.
The Christians are not all the same. If it was James White, I would have shown him the utmost respect. If it was William Lane, Craig, I would have showed him the utmost respect. If it was any of those guys, I would have showed them the utmost respect for this man. No, no, no, no, no, no.
Read the Bible. I will teach you the Bible today. Please stay on topic. Okay, no problem.
I've got to one minute and a half. And I'm pretty much done. I can't believe it.
Should I give it as a charity to him?
I'll give it as a charity to have a minute and a half of charity for Muslims to go ahead.
starting our second rubato, eight minutes, Dr. David Wood, you may start. Wow, that's nine and a half. He said I got it as charity.
Thank you. Thank you. I'd say I'd say call the charity. All right. Well, I guess we'll start off with the four questions. I knew we had more rebuttal time, and I didn't think there were too terribly difficult to to answer. So let's go through them.
Question number one. Why isn't the Trinity mentioned in the Old Testament?
Well, I pointed out multiple passages multiple passages where you find a plurality. And the question is why you have this plurality, if
it's just this pure monotheism that Muslims believe in a quoted Isaiah chapter 48, verse 16, where your way of speaking and Yaqui says that he has been sent by your way along with the spirit of Yahweh.
How do you make sense of that? Now, to be clear, that is not that is not a clear statement of the doctrine of the Trinity, but to say that these passages refute the doctrine of the Trinity that the Old Testament refutes the doctrine of the Trinity Wait a minute, we'll keep this time
even the go to verse you have lots of verses that sound like polar ality you have to interpret those away if you don't want to believe that the Old Testament is actually calling for saying that God is plural in some sense, but even the go to passage, the Shema
which he said in the Old Testament, and the New Testament, that's the go to verse that's the go to verse
that proves this pure monotheism. You know what the the Shema actually says.
Shema Israel Yaqui eloheinu Yaqui
Now we insert extra words in there to make that a complete sentence. What that actually says here O Israel, yawei is the name of God.
eloheinu means our God yawei means our God. One. That's what it says, Here, oh, Israel Yaqui eloheinu Yaqui one. That's what it says, names God three times and then says one.
Now this is a Jewish commentary. On the Torah, I
wanted to quote this because there's a commentary on the Shema itself,
the commenting and they say, Here O Israel, Yaqui, eloheinu, Yaqui is one.
These three are one, how can the three names be one, only through the perception of faith, and the vision of the Holy Spirit and the beholding of the hidden eyes alone.
Now that these By the way, these are Unitarians here, but the fact that they're discussing a kind of try unity, in the go to passage for Muslims around the world to say this refutes the doctrine of the Trinity, and they're describing it in
Trinitarian terms, again, not the Christian Trinity, but try unity of the names there. If that's your best, you're going to need something better. So you find plurality throughout the Old Testament in various passages. Why doesn't? Why doesn't God specifically say, Trinity? Well, I think it's very similar to what you find when Moses comes along. And God says to him,
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob knew me, but they did not know me as Yaqui. Now, this isn't just talking about the name, it's talking about God's character. So think about this, God is bringing a covenant, God is bringing a covenant to the children of Israel, with Moses. And then he says, I'm revealing more about myself than I did to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Now think about this. According to Muhammad, Joe, we'd have to say, Oh, well, why didn't they know this earlier stuff, then? Why didn't they have the same knowledge? Well, Christians, and Muslims believe in progressive revelation, God can get more think about what God did there. He's giving a covenant, a new covenant back then we
call it the old covenant now, but back then it was a new covenant. He's giving a new covenant.
And he says, giving you a new covenant, and I'm going to reveal more about myself to you.
So according to the Old Testament, what does God do when he brings a new covenant? Well, the pattern is, he gives them a deeper understanding of who he is.
So why doesn't the Trinity just clearly define? I mean, why doesn't the Old Testament clearly define the doctrine, the Trinity? Well, in the Old Testament, as well, Jeremiah, chapter 31, a new covenant is coming. It's prophesied in the future. The big one is coming. The big covenant is coming.
Well, don't you think God's got some more information in store for the people of the New Covenant when this new covenant comes? I do. And who brings the New Covenant? Well, Jesus, it's Jesus entering the world. And then the holy spirit being poured out, where we find out about the inner life of God. And this is correlated with God's plan of salvation. Four minutes left.
So why isn't it clearly mentioned? Well, that's how God works. He progressive revelation, he does this throughout the Bible, he keeps giving them more and more information, especially when he's giving a new covenant.
Mohammed john says, Well, why didn't the Church Fathers from the second, third century and so on, give fourth century descriptions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Now think about this. In the first century, the books of the Bible are passed out, and they're, they're sort of individual books, there's not a collection yet.
So in the first century, you still got books circulating as individual books by the second century, they start getting collected, but think about who Christians are, they're there, you got farmers, you've got fishermen and so on. You don't have this early on this professional class of theologians that builds up over time.
And for the first three centuries, Christians are and Christianity is an illegal religion and persecuted they can't get together for big conferences, to do stuff and to
and to have discussions like this. The first time they're able to get together and have these big these big councils is in the fourth century, and that's what they do. And it gets ironed out very quickly. So the problem as far as what's revealed to the Christians, they have revelations about the Father.
About the sun, about the spirit, these things are given to them.
One, they need the tools of Jesus for saying, This is what the Holy Spirit did. This is what Jesus did. How do we understand the eternal nature of God based on this? Well, that's kind of difficult work to do, ladies and gentlemen, it's kind of difficult work to do.
So that sort of thing takes a while. And they don't have the terminology. How are you describing God being one in essence, or nature, and three in person didn't have a bit of know what language to apply to the eternal God, they eventually settled on some, but that takes time.
But throughout this father's God, Holy Spirit is God, Son is God. This is revealed in Scripture. If every church father in the history of the world had gotten it wrong, that wouldn't change what the Bible teaches. And by the way, just imagine if, if we're going to be discussing the nature of the Quran or something like this. And I say, Oh, you know, we got Sunni's, and she is and and these earlier heretical groups, and everyone's getting stuff wrong, and so on. Well, Islam should be defined by the the Islamic sources and the teachings that you could draw from them, just like Christianity should be defined by Christian sources.
Question three was, who says that the Holy Spirit is co equal and co eternal?
Which part of his god don't you understand? Right? If the Holy Spirit is God, they say, oh, where do you say co equal and co eternal? with the Father, like later creed, say? Where's it say? Where did they say that earlier? One minute left. He's God.
If I say,
the Holy Spirit has the attributes of God,
you can ask well, what about all these later distinctions that became very important to them later on when they're dealing with various kinds of heresies, they come up with the terms to respond to the heresy. But all of these are based on going back to the scriptures and seeing what lines up with them?
And finally, how can we reconcile the contradiction of the Trinity? I don't know what you mean by contradiction. contradiction is saying that a statement is both true and false at the same time, in the same sense, no Christian says that God is one and three in the same sense, never met a Christian who said that, we say that God is one in essence or being or nature, and three in person. If you say that's false. Well, I mean, think even Islam believes that God is one in one hand more than one another way. God is one, and the level of being more than one on the level of attribute has mercy Trump's over his wrath. You don't say that's another god. Why? Because that's the level of
attribute, we have the level of person.
That's fine.
Yep. If you want to stay seated for the crossfire. That's it. No conclusions. No conclusions. We're actually about to do the crossfire questions first.
So you can go ahead and ask the first question to Dr. David wooden, and he will have two minutes to respond.
Well, let's let's start with the questions you didn't answer, which church father for the first 300 years explicitly mentioned, that the Holy Spirit is co equal, co eternal with God.
Again, from the Bible on the Holy Spirit, is God. Now here's what I don't understand. If you take someone like Tertullian, or something like this and say, who calls the Holy Spirit God? And the question then becomes, well, when did he say he's co equal or co eternal? What do you think God? What do you think these guys mean? When they say the Holy Spirit is God? What do you think the Bible means?
The Bible calls him eternal. What do you mean, co eternal? If he's eternal, then he's obviously co eternal with the Father.
So I'm not under it's like, it's like saying, If I tell you, I am the current president of the United States, and you say, haha, but where are you claiming to be Donald Trump? Well, if I claim to be the current president of the United States, I would be claiming to be Donald Trump, right? I don't have to say that other thing, right? So if you say so and so is God, or so and so has the attributes of God.
It just doesn't make it just doesn't make sense to say, Well, where is he co equal with the father or co this? These are? One minute, these are terms. These are terms this is language that was used
in later counsels.
To clarify, to clarify, I mean, I could turn right around and say, Where does the Quran say that the Quran is eternal? That's a conclusion you draw, right? That's a conclusion you draw from various things that the Quran says, it doesn't say that right? You have to interpret it that way. I don't understand why you can say okay, well, the Bible says that the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the son is gone. And therefore as far as the essence the as far as their essence.
They're all God, they're all Yahoo. And therefore in that sense, they are co equal. So what you have is later Church Fathers saying, Okay, if they all share the same essence, then in that sense, they're co equal. Why would they? Why would you expect someone in the first century to use a word that came about to clarify something in the fourth century? I don't know.
Thank you very much, doctor. But
you may ask your first question towards Mr. Raja.
Yes, going back to a lot of praying, because I'm not just trying to mess with you guys here. I'm really I'm really confused, right?
Because as I pointed out, you have Muslim translators translating passages in the Hadees saying that Allah and His creation prays, and you look at the Quran, and it's using similar word, but this is different. This is the Quran. And you know, it's multiple passages. And then Muslim translators are translating it as praise. And then you have, I think it's tirmidhi, which which use it and it won't translate as anything. It just says a lot performances a lot, right? They won't say what it means. Because if you say it means praise, and you're going to be confused, and if you translate it to something else, well,
then you're going to have to nail down a definition of the word. So what should this word mean? What should this and that in the Quran and the Hadith? How should this be translated? And why are even Muslim translators now, translating it as praise if there's this clear other meaning? I have two minutes.
I don't think I need two minutes. To be honest with you. I think I've dealt with that extensively. It was sort of the island is different for Salima, and this these are sort of general basically these are certain propositional words that come after the verb. And depending on which of those words come, it differentiates the meaning completely so because it says Salalah. And you'll never find anyone that says, leave for example, after the word Salah irrespective of amounts of SLM linguists, and Muslims clearly conclude that
it means blessings, etc. Now, obviously, just looking at the Koran on a cursory level, if you read in English translations of the meanings, you'll find that there are certain verses of the Quran if you are just, if you respect your intellect, you will see that it does not tell you to pray to Prophet Mohammed does not because it tells you only La Ilaha Illa. Allah Quran says La la la who only God is worthy of worship, you know these things. So one minute, appreciate that you've come a bit more humble this time. And you said I'm confused. I hope. I hope you have understood this now. And if you don't, I think we should blame your intellect and your lack of knowledge. That's that's
that's the state it should be right now. But just to just to kind of touch upon what you said, because I do have a bit of time back to Julian he was a subordination just to Julian was a subordination is he died to 40. I don't actually think you read his works. I don't believe he read his works. His primary source materials all stipulate he does use the language of the fourth century men, but he does not use it in the context of the Holy Spirit. And so therefore, I conclude that two children was that and that's why it is deemed as a heretic by the Catholics. He's and and by the Protestants is deemed and other people are deemed as heretics. So it's a back projection based on
later developments of the church. And this is something you could not deal with basically, in this second in this particular in this particular debate.
Thank you very much, Mr. Java, you may go forward with your second question. All right. So you spoke about the attributes of you spoke about the attributes of the Holy Spirit, etc. I'm just going to give you one example. I mean, this is very easy question. In chapter 13, verse 32, it says, Only the father knows when the hour is now understand why the son might not know because it's the human side, you see, is the human side. So he, you know, the gods side might know about the human, but what about the Holy Spirit? Why does the Holy Spirit not know when the hour is?
Two minutes afterward?
Well, the Holy Spirit is included. We have elsewhere that the Holy Spirit searches the mind of God knows everything that God knows. If you look at what Jesus is doing there when he says,
when he says no, and he's referring to the level of human beings By the way, if you if you guys like that verse, that's if you believe Jesus said that, then Islam is false. Because notice you've got father and son there according the Quran allows a father to know and the highest relationship you can have with Allah is a slave to master relationship. So if you believe that, then Islam is false. But if you look what he says there, already, he sets up a hierarchy says, The Day of their time. He says, No one knows referring to the level of men. And then he says, not even the angels. So that's the entire created order. No man knows
Not even the angels, not even the son, only the Father. So even in this verse you're quoting, he's putting himself one minute left. He's putting himself above all of creation, is putting himself above all of creation. And so the question is, why wouldn't why would Jesus say that he doesn't know the hour? Well, there's there's a long explanation,
which I'm not even sure is correct. But usually we would, we would explain this in terms
given the easier one here.
My time here.
The straightforward one, is Christians also believe in the gnosis when Jesus takes on human nature, they find this in john one. And Muhammad mentioned earlier, the the hymn to Christ and Philippians where it says he was in the form of God, but he made himself nothing taking on the nature of a servant, and we believe he actually took on the nature of the service and limited himself in that way. If you believe that's a problem, by the way. I mean, think about it. The Quran doesn't contain verses that the eternal Quran hasn't yet you still believe you have the Quran, even though certain things have been withheld from you. So thank you very much, Dr. Wood.
You can start your second question right now. Yeah, I'm confused by this
claim, which you made earlier that Jews, Jews have regarded the doctrine the Trinity as polytheism. And Jews never saw any plurality. In the Old Testament, that's simply false. Before the end of the second century AD, it was very widespread to see a plurality within the one God. This is from Benjamin summer, from the Jewish Theological Seminary in New York, who writes, no Jew sensitive to Judaism's own classical sources can fault the theological model Christianity employs when it evolves belief in a god who has an earthly body, as well as a Holy Spirit and a heavenly manifestation. For that model we have seen is a perfectly Jewish one, a religion whose scripture contains the fluidity
traditions whose teachings emphasize the multiplicity of the Shekinah and whose thinkers speak of the separate does not differ in its theological essentials from a religion question or? Sorry, that's a question. Yes, it's a question. So if Jewish scholars who are acknowledging that the turn to unitarianism only arose in the second century as a reaction to Christianity has set themselves against the Christians more?
How can you say that Jews never saw this when it's widely understood that they did
have two minutes?
Thank you for that question.
He talks about in the last part of his speech, the Shama and how it can mean three Gods now he's speaking about, he spoke about three minutes about Prophet Mohammed spitting, I believe, believe in me, I think that genuinely speaking, if you saw, if you gave your exegetical interpretation to a rabbi, I think he would spit at you.
Because I don't think anybody of the Jewish in 4000 years of Hebrew history has ever believed in what you say that they believed, give me one primary source of any Jew that believed in the Trinity. One, don't give me Benjamin summers. He's the is a secondary source material, you're meant to come here with academic information. And I've only I've only mostly quoted you primary source materials. You're an academic, you understand how it works in academia, give me a primary source material of a Jew, who believed three co equal co eternal, independent beings, you will never have a bill of one God, you will never find this one minute left. Okay, in that minute.
Since since to be honest with you, I mean, it was pretty easy to answer his question.
Actually, I'll give it to him and I'll give it to him. I'll give it to him.
Is it my turn to ask? Yeah.
Okay.
I'll give you a primary source material.
Justin Martyr, who was a
was a church fathers, you know, who was very early, I think he died 110 or something like that ad. And he wrote a book called The first apologies. In chapter 21 of this book,
Justin Martyr was having a conversation with a pagan, okay? And he said to the person, the pagan, he said to him,
just as you believe that Jupiter is God, and there are sons of Jupiter.
We believe that the Father is God and Jesus is the Son of God. My question to you is this
how can you ask
Show us today, then the first 300 years of Christian history, that there has not been a Greek mythological influence
in the formulation of the Trinity.
You have two minutes.
Well,
we, we have first century documents, right?
with the possible exception of Luke, they're all devout Jews, they had utter contempt for the religions, of the pagans of the polytheist. The scriptures that they appeal to are the Old Testament, these guys were thoroughly Jewish, they appeal to Old Testament prophecies. They are devout monotheists
the views they came to have about Jesus and the Holy Spirit came from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, they didn't go up to Europe and get something about Zeus or something like that.
So we know where their beliefs came from. Right? Jesus comes in the world, Jesus makes all kinds of claims. These guys many of these early Christians went to their horrible bloody deaths, proclaiming that Jesus is Lord, one minute left. If they were just sort of trying to compromise or picking up something they heard in the market,
they wouldn't have to deal with that sort of thing. As far as for Justin Martyr. Now, Justin, everyone acknowledges that Justin Martyr makes a bad comparison. But he's actually appealing to the Rome leaders to stop persecuting Christians. He's making a plea here, stop, stop killing us stop the persecutions, please, we're begging you. And in this, it's, well, you know, we believe Jesus, Son of God, you believe in sons of God. So why were you guys out here? Why? Why are you guys out here persecuting us. You can't draw a tremendous amount of that about our theology coming from them, especially when you have Old Testament passages turns out the son, the Messiah, and the Messiah
being the son and the son being the mighty God.
Thank you very much, Dr. Wood. You may ask your third question.
Yes,
Tao heat.
When we look at all the things we have here, we have the Eternal Word of Allah, which is co eternal. And so he's got his co Eternal Word with him, we've got a spirit, we've got all of these different things going on. And then you have the word tail here to describe it, which doesn't simply mean oneness as I understand it. So so since you're talking about the Arabic here, as I understand it comes from ohada, which means to unify and therefore tawheed means the unification but if you're unifying something, then you're bringing different things together. And so if we look and we see these flocks of birds, taking the place of the pagan goddesses and interceding for you and things
like that,
could this word tell he it means something beyond? oneness here when we say all of these different things, if Allah is trying to avoid anything but tawheed and you've got all of these different things and things that are co eternal with him, and interceding flocks of birds?
How do we reconcile all this? Okay, thank you.
So here it is a equal a muster and the Arabic language Yes, you're right to say it comes from the Arabic word wahida
which means unifying something, and it could mean different things in different contexts for sure. Now the Quran let's look at what the Quran actually says. The Quran says hula hula hoop
one more time. One more time. Thank you one more time.
One more time. Okay, okay.
In Arabic language means the one and only Yes, there was this difference between word hate and I have word could mean something which is cardinally counted. This Cardinal numbers. One the first second third. Yes. Well,
yeah, but
I had can never be. So means one. And only that's what the Quran says. In one of the smallest chapters.
When you say that the Koran, one minute left the Quran, this is this is a must have, okay, these are pages. And this, this is these are pages, right? We don't believe these pages and this ink is co eternal. We don't believe that. JOHN Johnson I'm saying these pages and this thing. This this is not we don't when Muslims are
Never said, No Muslim has ever said in history that this is co eternal. It's never they're not even the martyrs. And so this by the way, from was knocked up by three 133 ad. Ah, so no one has said that what we believe is that the Kalam of Allah, which is the words of Allah, are an attribute of God. Without 10 fetal tissue B, we don't make we don't like in it. And that the Quran spoken from Allah is a subset of the attribute. That's our belief, not this physical thing here that you see the paper. We don't believe in that. Thank you very much, Mr. Punjab.
First question, just a friendly reminder, please turn your cell phones off or keep it on silent. So it won't distract the speakers. Thank you very much. You may go ahead. And
thank you very much.
The question I have is
looking at a lot of your content online. In the past week or two, I found that
seemingly, I mean, you can correct me if I'm wrong. Yep. You seem to make a moral case for Christianity and the moral case against Islam.
I watched one of your videos with someone called Ollie ATI, I think his name was and he made the point he asked you a question. On the record. He said, If Jesus and this is what we've been talking about today, is the author of the Old Testament, if Jesus is the author of the Old Testament, how can you explain all of the things which is deemed as immoral? Because as a divine command theorist, I would expect you to believe that all of the things in the Old Testament in terms of injunctions if that had been made by Jesus, who is meant to be the author of the Old Testament, God, the triune, God
would have been good, but you actually said it's bad. There are lots of these rewards. There are lots of bad things in the Old Testament. Now, if Jesus is God, and he's the author of the Old Testament,
and he has bad injunctions. How can you reconcile the fact that God a maximally perfect good being could give us bad injunctions?
Two minutes? Yeah, I don't recall saying bad things to take a look at the clip. I did acknowledge that they're all I said, there are all sorts of things in the in the Bible that bother me.
I do I do recall saying that. And what I mean by that is, I'm a philosopher, I'm a former atheist, when and this would go for the Quran as well, when when you know, things that passage is talking about hell, or something like that eternal torment or warfare or something like that. Those things bother me.
That doesn't mean I rejected from God, okay, those are, I've noticed a mindset in Islam that if you accept Islam, you you can never really think critically about it. And
I can't I can't be like that. So always, I'm always wrestling with issues, Old Testament and New Testament. And with the Quran as well. So as far as, as far as the the moral case,
if we're talking about Old Testament passages, looking at those things, yeah, I would say these things are these things. Ah, you know, the one minute left, entering the land of Canaan and fighting the Canaanites, and so on those things, those things. They make me wonder sometimes, but
if you believe that Jesus rose from the dead, then you have to say, Okay, if Jesus rose from the dead, then if I'm going to listen to anyone, tell me about God, I'm going to listen to Jesus. And so if he's lowered, then hey, if something bothers me, that's my problem, right? That's, that's my problem. That's something I have to wrestle with. God accepts that we have to wrestle with the Psalms are filled with people, really, really wondering why certain things are happening. And I don't think that's a bad thing. And I don't think God thinks it's a bad thing. When we look at something and go, Wow, that's really rough. Now, I really want to, I really want to think about
that. So I don't see that as any big problem, if something bothers me, but I'm convinced that I have good reasons to believe in Christianity than 10 seconds, I don't really see the problem. And that's why I would still accept it.
Because Jesus rose from the dead.
Thank you, Dr. Wooden, you may ask your fourth question.
Yes, in the deeth, I'm wondering, because when Allah says, however you want to translate it, he says, he prays and the angels pray, therefore you pray, it's like he's setting himself up as a model. So however you want to translate that that's not the point. I'm not talking about that. But he's setting himself up as a kind of model for behavior but in Hadith, we read Mohammed saying that if you swear by which Hadees Yeah, yeah, if you swear by anything other than Allah, you're committing shear and setting it up as a partner with Allah. So if Mohammed says that swearing by anything is committing shirk, and in the Quran, Allah swears by literally everything.
He swears by all kinds of things and then says he swears by the seen and the unseen.
Then, if Mohammed says, doing this is shirk, and Allah then does it with literally everything. Doesn't this sound more like pantheism than if everything is set up with a partner, as a partner with Allah? So it's mainly about what sort of things Allah has to do with Mohammed lays down rules like that. I have two minutes. Thank you. Sure, by definition, can only be done by other than Allah.
By definition,
because it means associating partners with Allah.
That's what that's what, associating partners with Allah. So Allah can not, it's not within Allah's attributes to do *. It's not possible. That's not a possibility. Right? So the question that you ask is about how comes allied, the opposite would be invalid. Let me be the oldest in the world, federal and oldest, he makes equal cost him he does pose in the Quran. Well, Allah even does an oath by himself. If Allah became law, you may know Lumina Hata. You hacky McAfee? mushara bueno. So the point is, why does Allah have the ability to do to make an oath with anything he wants? And we can only make an oath with Allah? Because Allah owns everything. One minute land to Allah we belong.
This is the reality. Yes. So and the scholars say, and the scholars say, whatever Allah makes, and all of that becomes equal more of them, Sharon, it becomes an important thing in the Sharia. Okay. Now, we can truly just because some Muslims might be confused with, is it true that if someone does cost them with other than a lot that they've committed major ship? This is not the view of the majority of scholars, right. So they say that this is a minor kind of shift just for the four key things. Don't make fear of your friends that are saying, Oh, my mom's life? Yes. Don't do an excommunication of them. So that hopefully answers your question.
You may ask your fifth question. Oh, yes. This was really interesting to follow up from what you said before? Because it seems to me that was not a satisfactory answer you were saying that you are wrestling with, with these things in the Bible wrestling grappling in your mind about these things in the Bible? In the Old Testament, you seem to think that morality, yes, can be achieved. You're a philosopher, yes, can be achieved from other than a objective morality is your suggestion that an objective morality can be achieved from other than the objective law? So I want to understand
as Are you a divine command theorists, do you believe that the injunctions of God must be perfect? And if you do believe this, how can you explain and you did say that it can easily be retrieved on the internet? I listened to it just yesterday, you said the Old Testament has bad things in it. You said this? Yes. How can you explain that a maximally? Perfect, good. God,
at one point and time,
put forward injunctions which could be bad or which otherwise bother you. Can you explain?
Two minutes?
Oh, well, I mean, if you mean, hey, you know, there's all kinds of really bad things going on in the Old Testament. Yes, very, very bad things going on in the Old Testament, right? It's a history, right. But I mean, you could take any history book and say, Oh, look at all these bad things going on. If you mean that things that you know, that, that I say would you know, hey, you know, I'm wondering about this. That's not just me. I mean, I'm a diagnosed psychopath, right. I don't have I don't have bad feelings about these kinds of things. The reconciliation is that in the New Testament, God is defined as love, right? We're told God is love, which we only understand in a
Trinitarian. It makes no sense for God to be love from all eternity.
But in the light of the doctrine of the Trinity with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, now we can see how God can be loved from all eternity, not just not just
one person within God. So if Jesus says that we're told that God loves everyone, one minute left, that we are to love everyone that we are to harm no one that we are to seek peace with everyone. We're told these than I have to obey these kinds of things. And so the difficult part, the difficult part, then becomes, well, what do I do about these wars and so on, given what I now believe about God, and so that's
Where the struggle comes in? Fortunately, the Bible does deal with it right? Jesus says, Jesus says Moses allowed divorce in these certain in these circumstances, because of the hardness of your heart. But from the beginning, it was not. So now look at what he said here. This is not the will of God, God is allowing certain things at certain times because of the hardness of your heart. So even according to the Bible, that is not the ideal situation that is not in zionsville for humanity. God looks down and sees a world of sinners.
And then has to deal with that. Right. And it's not always it's not always going to be pretty, but the New Testament affirms that the situations in the Old Testament were not always ideal. Thank you, Dr. Wood.
may ask her fifth question.
Yes.
Chapter 61 verse 14 of the Quran, Allah says that he aided the true followers of Jesus until they became uppermost. Now, I suppose you can interpret them in different ways commentators, such as Yusuf Ali interpreted it specifically to mean that Christians, the Christian followers of Jesus took over the Roman Empire. And that that's how they that's how they became uppermost and, and more powerful than the Jews who rejected Jesus. But we know that the Christianity that took over Europe took over the Roman Empire believed in Jesus death, resurrection and deity and the Trinity by the time they did and so why would Allah help the wrong Christians? If they were earlier Christians who
believe the right thing? Why did Allah help the wrong ones according to the Quran? According to the Quran?
Thank you, according to the Quran, the disciples of Jesus to however you were Muslim,
this is the answer okay. The Quran says about the How are you in chapter three of the Quran? Fish had been now Muslim moon, let us know let we were witnessed that we are Muslims Meaning what? Not that they believed in Prophet Mohammed know that they were submitted to God in the same way that Jesus wasn't john chapter five, verse 30, I don't submit myself to my own robot, the will of God. So why did Allah help the hell out of you and sort of stuff and chapter 61 of the Quran also elaborate on chapter three of the Quran, because they follow Jesus. And he was a prophet of God. And so therefore, Allah, He helped them because he they followed the true prophet at that time. And that
true prophet, which we believe in as the Messiah was Jesus Christ. So it has nothing to do with the Roman Empire this stuff, see it is null and void, you will not find this anywhere, of sorts of stuff. This thing about the Roman Empire, no, no, this will not. You will not find this in poverty, you'll not find this in court to be you'll not find an advocacy or you will not find this in any of the more facilities works is something I don't know what you've got it from. But here is the initial point is that the however you the disciples, we have good opinion of them. Yes. And that is why I say to you, and I've been saying to you for the for the whole discussion, you will not find a
policy, apostolic succession for your beliefs. As a Christian, you will not find the Apostolic.
You will not find an apostolic provenance back to Jesus Christ, what you believe you have to go further back in time, you have to back project, you have to take the ideas of the later people. And basically, it's sometimes mixed up, do you have to render heretical, the earlier people, we as Muslims, we believe that the earlier peoples of the prophets were the best. And then they became worse as it goes on. To us Christians believe in the opposite. And that's a disaster of a belief.
Thank you, Mr. Java, you may ask her sixth and final question. Related to this. I want to just ask this question one last time, because I've given him many times in this debate, an opportunity to ask this question. Okay. My question is simple. I appreciate that early church fathers believed that Jesus was God. Some of them didn't believe them. Some of them believed he was God, but not co equal, that he was in a hierarchy. Some of them believed he was God, but not in the same level of like subordination isn't right.
I am asking a question. If they could designate Jesus as God, co equal and co eternal, and they use that language respective to Jesus. Can you give me one person who has interpreted the New Testament? Yeah, for the first 300 years, who has said the same thing about the Holy Spirit? Because if you cannot, the Frank truth is, you have a baseless foundation for your belief. for 300 years, people would have been the farmer, the farmer, the fisherman, the you know, the butcher, the teacher, all of those individuals are down to hell, despite the fact that they had the Gospels in front of them.
Because they couldn't make the natural inference of the Holy Spirit being God, can you give me one person, church father, first 300 years who designated the Holy Spirit as co equal, co eternal, independent, the same language that they use an idea for the Holy Spirit, please do. So.
I'm shocked that people still take this, who called the Holy Spirit co uttered the Bible calls him eternal.
The Bible calls him eternal.
That language that specifically he said, here's a council in the fourth century that came up with a specific way of phrasing things. Well, that was to help people avoid confusion here. So if we're saying that the Holy Spirit is God, Father is God, the son as God, if this is revealed in Scripture, there's only one God, guess what, that's what they are believing time.
If someone objects at some point and says, I believe that the Holy Spirit is not eternal, well, then in your creed, you need to clarify, hey, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. The Bible says that he's eternal. So he's co eternal, with the Father. And so they put it in a creed. Just to be clear, Creed's have no authority beyond the Scripture, one minute left, there's this scripture, but it's a lot. It's 66 books, covers 1500 years, 40 different authors, right? There are threads running throughout the Scripture, right? The purpose of the creed is to say, here's a little short list of the essentials.
Here's a short list of the essentials to make sure that you're on the right side of being an Orthodox Christian. And so I put a little creed there just because Oh, so and so it was coming to a different position, and he's contradicting the Bible. Therefore, we need to make we need to make sure we mentioned co eternal here. Right. But the CO eternal does not come from the Council, the CO eternal comes from the Bible, right? And all of the claims about the equality of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Those come from the Scripture, acknowledging them all as yawei, 10 seconds. And so you're basically saying, hey, why do you Why are you using language of clarification later on
that you didn't use earlier? Well, the earlier people would have said, we understand he's gone. So
before we start our q&a, each speaker will have five minutes for questions. Anyway, he started Why shouldn't
What's that? No, no, I mean, he started with the question. So
I wasn't counting. So I wasn't counting. But you have the sixth question. sixth and final question. Okay.
This is kind of a side issue. But I was wondering about it, because
Muhammad, you mentioned the urbanites as
early as an early group, who didn't believe in the deity of Christ, the Midianites. As I understand them, were a group, they didn't have the Bible, they only had parts of the Gospel of Matthew. So they had parts of the Gospel of Matthew, and in that part of the Gospel of Matthew, they didn't have the beginning. But they also rejected the virgin birth. They didn't believe that prophets actually got revelations from God, the prophet spoke on their own wisdom. So if we're taking the urbanites as the true followers of Christ here, won't we have to reject Islam as well? Okay, thank you.
Now, I've never made the claim that the Knights are the true followers of Christ. That's something you've said, That's not something I've said, I've just made the point that they had the Islamic position on two aspects, the non divinity of Jesus Christ and the non divinity of the Holy Spirit. Now, they didn't have the Bible. Do you know why? Because they came before john, came on 70 ad, john came 95 ad.
I don't know what to say. They only had the Gospel of Matthew, because only Mark Matthew and Luke the Synoptic Gospels were available to them, they had those synoptic gospels. Now, the thing is, when you when you talk about what they actually believed in, I gave you a primary source material, he politics, he said, who was who was the, the student of uranium, and he was a student of Justin Martyr, and who taught origin of origin of Alexandria, he said, and against the heritage chapter 22. What they believe you can go and check it. If you don't believe me, it's a primary source material. Now, one minute left, I've got I mean, I will use a minute. Now the point you said here, about the
Holy Spirit is absolutely null and void. You know how many things in the Bible are COVID are eternal. Look at melchisedec, the mill Chizik he didn't have a mother, he didn't have a father in the book of Hebrews. He was a turtle, bring you into the Trinity. Bring him into the trenches today. Bring him into the Trinity today. If that's your only parameter.
The only thing you have you said God, just because something is referred to as theose in the Greek, it must be a co exist co eternal. Then bring Paul in, bring the devil in because they're called fields as well.
Now, as it relates to,
okay as it relates to the Holy Spirit, Gregory of Nyssa, Angeas and Gregory of Nyssa. They quote in church documents, primary source materials, you can check the website, many prophets one message, it has all the references, they quote, we didn't know people were disputing about what the Holy Spirit is. Some said it was a creature some study was God. Some said it was this some study was that we did not know that's what they said. It's not an argument from silence I'm making it's an argument from evidence.
Thank you very much for the job.
Dr. Wood, you may start your five minute conclusion, or switching.
Well, thank you. Thank you. Again, a couple side notes here. He says the EB Knights were too early. our earliest reference to the EB Knights was from 140.
Of course, they they they could be earlier. But the point is, these were people who had one part of one gospel. And there were certainly there were certainly the rest of the Gospels around during the time, but they are they are regarded as a radical offshoot of Judaism. So to lay them down as authoritative. Again, these are these are guys who didn't believe that prophets spoke from God. They didn't believe in the virgin birth and so on. So these guys are the closest to the True JESUS, then we have to reject the Islamic Jesus. I said no Kislyak was eternal. Now you have to understand what what the author of Hebrews is doing there. He's talking about the descriptions, right? We don't have
really time to go into this. If someone wants to bring it up in the q&a asked about Melchizedek when we can actually go what he's doing there is not saying that Melchizedek Melchizedek is eternal. Certainly not claiming that.
So.
And the last point, just because something is called a god in Scripture doesn't mean it's a you know, it has divine attributes, and is not God. Yes, we understand the term chaos and the term elohiym. And the Old Testament can mean various things. The question is, how are these terms used of Jesus? How are these terms used of the father? How are these terms used of the Holy Spirit? The Holy Spirit is creating the world. In the Bible, the Holy Spirit is eternal in the Bible. So they just brush that off and say, What are the things are called God? Yeah, not in the same, not in that way, right? You could say, Oh, those are false gods, there, you're calling them, you're saying they're
their gods in some way. You're using the term but you're not applying it seriously. When we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, these are used seriously of
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
So as far as what we have what we have tonight,
again, we see in the Old Testament, we see from the opening verses of the book of Genesis, and throughout the Old Testament, various claims of plurality within the one God. Jewish commentators have mentioned this. Modern experts in Judaism, acknowledge that prior to the end of the second century, where the Jewish community swung very hardly in a Unitarian direction, there was widespread agreement in the Jewish community, and Mohammed had job, how did he respond? Well show me where they say co equal co Eternal Father, Son holy, so no one's claiming they knew that. The point was, you think they had this tawheed ish belief? And they just didn't? Right? What did what did the scholars
say? What are various Jewish scholars say that the doctrine that Christians believe in would have fit in very comfortably with what Jews prior to the second century had fit, and there would have been nothing there for for a Jew to claim about to complain about in terms of theology, they would reject, they wouldn't reject it by saying, Oh, that's a confusing doctrine of God is the point. They say we reject Jesus as the Messiah, that would be the main complaints of Jews during the time.
And what are we seeing on the other side, right? And here's what's interesting. Christians have a lot of data, right? We have the Old Testament passages, we have Jesus coming into the world. And we see the various things that Jesus did and the claims he made. And since he rises from the dead, we have to take those claims seriously. So when he's claiming to be the final Judge of all mankind, or when he's claiming to be the one who raises the dead at the resurrection, we recognize the kinds of claims that he's making
And then when we find various claims about the Holy Spirit, we take those seriously. And we say, all right, everything that God has revealed to us we have to take seriously.
And the only way to take it all seriously is with something like the doctrine of the Trinity. One minute left, we turn to Islam, and we find all kinds of things that are just confusing. I, you know, I talked about a lot of praying, and ah, it means sending blessings. They're perfectly you say Baraka, right? We know how to say that. Why does he use the word that's prayer, so much, so confusing, so confusing, that even Muslim translators are now translating, as allow praying in a variety of different circumstances, a lot of praying for self control, so there's mercy can triumph over his wrath. And we find this over and over again, that you have an eternal word, that there is a
spirit that proceeds from within a law that you have a man that his followers were were drinking his blood, all of these things, if we said, again, goddesses are interceding with you with Allah, he would say polytheism but the Quran is doing in the form of birds who know things who talk, and it's pure monotheism is left. And so when we see this over and over again, Islam looks like it's trying to copy Christianity but just doing a really bad job of it.
Thank you very much, Dr. Woods.
Five minutes.
David Wood has been more interested or more concerned with trying to disprove Islam today than defending Christianity.
He talks about the epns as being a radical offshoot. This is a historic way of rendering history. One man's Orthodoxy is another man's heresy. gospel Gospels. He says in one other time, he says the gospels were not present. At the time of the church fathers. This is a lie or miss reading, misunderstanding, you should be reading his primary source materials. Almost all of them refer to the four Gospels. All of the major Church Fathers refer to the four gospels, let's say from Justin Martyr onwards, 100%. This is something well known look at their works.
Athanasius he's the one who made a short list of what is going to be the Bible, right? He made a shortlist in mid fourth century, the 27 books of the Old Testament. Now, the question we could ask is who gave him the authority to do that, to include in God's Word to take out of God's word, this is God's word. This is not God. Why is the Gospel of Thomas not in the Bible? Why is this he's making the decision then became quite popular, and it was an organic thing. It wasn't in the council, that these are the 27 books of the Old Testament. That's another issue. When we talk about the Bible, what are we really talking about? There's issues with the Bible, there is no chain going
back to Jesus. Everything that we have called a Sai Hadith and authentic hadith has a chain going back to Prophet Muhammad, Allah, and that's what you don't have. And that's why our books are preserved and yours are not. That's another issue.
He says he believes in progressive revelation in do in the New Testament, or light, that's very good. You know why? Because I agree with him on this point. I want to end with this. I agree with him. I believe he's right. Yes, the Bible does talk about a progressive revelation, which is why
it talks about the upcoming prophet.
And that's why she realized I have for you to
answer me this, who in history has come to the Katowice the Arabs has made the people of Salah the mountaintops rejoice,
who in history went to the Arabs and made the Arabs rejoice defeating his enemies in military warfare. And this is not something we're shy about. By the way, this is something we're very proud of, very proud of.
This is something we're very proud of because our profit
is a winner, a military winner. It's part of his prophecy that he was going to do that that's what Deuteronomy chapter 18 says that there was gonna be one of the ways to tell a true prophet is through prophecy. Every single one of the prophets Muhammad's prophecies came true look at the Quran
it's a way that a Christian Christian could come to terms Who is this man Prophet Muhammad Allah Islam do the research like he's right there is progressive revelation by did not end with Jesus.
It continued to prefer Mohammed Salah while he was
and that is why in the Quran, it doesn't mention progressive revelation has been his the final prophet, if you really want salvation, what like all that said and done 20 years of attacking islam documentaries, you know, making fun of Prophet Mohammed dressing up as a woman and these things no problem. Well, I I really am speaking about the Muslims here. Yes, I will forgive you and the Muslims will forgive you if you repent today. I will forgive you and we will forgive you if you repent today.
I want to give you one piece of advice.
Sorry, I'm just making content. I want to I want to give the
Muslims and my concluding speech, one piece of advice, which is you find that in First Peter, chapter three, verse 15 that someone asks you a question you know about what you hope you know, then speak speak to them respectfully.
Yes. honorably respectfully, mocking Muslims, you know, dressing like them and these things that's not respectful be like James White be like William Lane Craig. We can have, we can have. We can have more fruitful cohesion in our communities, man. We want to have collision.
We as Muslims, yes, I'm pulling the olive branch now to the Christian community. We don't want to we will never
let me down on
chapter six 108 do not curse their gods. We're not allowed to curse the gods or other people.
The Bible is the same ladies and gentlemen. The Bible says Don't, don't curse. Look at first Peter, chapter three, verse 15. Don't curse us Don't mock us. Because like today, you will be shown the truth in a very harsh manner. You'll be shown the truth in a very, very embarrassing manner. And that is the reality ladies and gentlemen.
Come humbly
humbly and you've received humbly give us your hand and we will shake it only if you respect us in the first place. But Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah.
Thank you very much. Mr. hijaab. We would like to thank both of our speakers. We're going to start taking the questions right now. So for any questions for Dr. Wood for him on the right, any questions for Dr. Mr. hijaab? from over here, please. not up to you.
All right.
Okay.
Good.
Morning, ask one question about the witnesses. Yes.
Okay.
Oh, what are the rules for q&a?
I want to make sure that this question is no offensive question that's all
about my time and stuff like that. Or you didn't take time. So it's just sort of laid back sort of
if we can all be try to be as quiet as we can. We're gonna start our q&a right now.
Is a working testing. Nice.
First question is going to be to Brother a job.
On the right over here. Oh, this is for this is for brotherhood. You have
any questions for Mr. hijab? Because start over here.
questions for Mr. hijab? Just to clarify questions for Mr. hijab over here. question for Dr. would be over there.
You can still ask.
She had a confused I will start the first question. He's gonna do too. So.
is the mic working? Okay.
Okay, please if we can stay as quiet as possible so we can hear the question.
So one thing that Dr. would have thought of multiple times during both your intro your rebuttal as well as your conclusion was the fact that Muslim scholars claimed that companions drink the profits of blood with your level of intellect. I mean, with Dr. Woods level of intellect and profession, I'm sure you're well aware of one of the most basic teachings of Islam which is regarding our diet, which is long term are forbidden to eat anything or drink any type of blood in any form. If you you don't have any doubt you can look at six I 145. So, you know, with the claim about us Muslim scholar scholar saying that the Prophet the companions indeed drink the prophets blood. Can we get one
credible name that of a scholar that did in fact say that
I'm having trouble hearing here.
Could you repeat? Like, basically she was saying there's a verse of the Quran that stated that drinking blood or eating any type of Yeah, so she she asked if you can provide an actually proven scholar that states that the that the Sahaba or the companions actually drank the blood of the Prophet. Is that was that your question? Yes, that was the question. So yeah, no, I'll give you the source. Okay, go
Take your time. Don't worry about that.
Oh, that's, that's in
that's in God.
I'm sorry. Can you hear me?
I can give you the
I think the reference
okay. So this is
Shiva by cotillion, says
Mohammed hibben. Saad, hillwalking scribe, related that he said to the Prophet, when you come from relieving yourself, we do not see anything noxious from you, he said, I do not know that the earth swallows up what comes out of the profits so that none of it is seen. Although this tradition is not famous, the people of knowledge, still notice the people of knowledge still mentioned the purity of his feces and urine. There was also the time when Malik had been sent in and drank his blood on the day of Buddhahood and licked it up. The Prophet allowed him to do that and said, the fire will not touch you. So this is pages 35 through 37. Shiva. Thank you very much, Dr. Woods.
Next question for Mr. Jeff. Good.
Hi.
Good debating things. You probably the bit you kept saying that there was no apostolic succession for the Trinity. And basically until the Nicene. Council Nicene there was nothing about the Trinity. No, but no church father has said anything between Jesus's death and 300 men, whatever ad or whatever that occurred. One question for you then. Can you name one person between 33 ad and 583 ad? Who said anything about Islam? Because there was no apostolic succession for Islam either. So it was exactly what he's saying, Can you can you repeat, he was basically saying that, if you can mention, if you can mention a source from three ad from 33 ad for 33, different Jesus's crucifixion, so about
the time of 583 ad when the when your profit began up what he said,
but he was started and
you can actually speak into this.
Just let them come up.
They might just need to turn that mic up.
So I was asking him, you know, one of your core questions where, you know, what's the apostolic succession between the Trinity Trinity there was nothing mentioned by the Church Fathers between Jesus's crucifixion and when the council night may see.
Can you mention one person historically? Who has talked about the
succession of Islam between 33 ad and 583 ad when your profit began? With my profit gantry? I don't get I don't get it. Sorry. What What do you think he's basically asking for references from 3382 583 to five, three, well, it was mentioned that the prophecy Islam was coming.
Sorry. I'm really I'm gonna do this on purpose. What's the source where or any any? Is he talking about Islam or Christianity? He's talking about Islam. Okay. 33 ad? ad is not Islam.
was their reference to Islam something to portray that would say that Islam is coming? Okay. Basically what he's asking Islam means submission. There's a reference to that in the Bible, john, chapter five, verse 30, because it says I don't submit myself to my own world, but to the will of the Father that is Islam. linguistically. That's what Islam means. So that's in the Bible. We don't need to go to 33. It is our is our right. I mean,
this is a question.
Yeah, sorry. One more, one more time. I'm not understanding the question. You're saying that there's there's nothing about the Trinity between 33 ad and about the time of the Council of Nicene. This is the crux of your argument. But one of the things you said the most Yeah, but by that same definition, we have nothing between 33 ad that speaks anything about anything in the world. Not anything of the crime, but most of the things in the crime or Islam
does not succeed.
Okay, as Muslims we don't believe that the Quran was wrong.
revealed to Jesus we believe it was revealed to Prophet Mohammed. Right. So obviously the Quran because it was not revealed to Jesus, it will be no reference to it because it was a final testament that came afterwards. You see. So when I made my argument I wasn't I did not make the argument that the Trinity was not mentioned. Yeah. The Trinity was mentioned by Tertullian. I mentioned that I mentioned the Nicene trinity of 381. And after that, which stipulates very specific specific parameters as to what the Trinity is, and what the Trinity isn't, that was my argument. Yeah. So I didn't say the Trinity is not there in the first, whatever, 300 years, I said, the Nicene Trinity
wasn't there. As for Islam, my my point was, that if you don't believe that Jesus is divine, and you don't believe that the Holy Spirit is divine, like many maniaplanet monarchists, and even I didn't believe and then by definition, you believe there's only one God was you worship, right? And if that if that's what you believe that you are Muslim, in a sense, because you you're submitting yourself to one God. So from that perspective, I think the case can be made.
Thank you. Thank you.
One question over there for Dr. Wood. All right. So can you hear me properly afterward? I just want to make sure. A little bit I don't know if I'm in a bad spot. That's the only mic I could hear really well. Just a loud, am I better now? All right, perfect. So my question is regarding the equality among the Trinity. So I'm, in Matthew 28, verse 18, Jesus says that all authority is given to him and and in the heavens on earth. And then in john, Chapter 16, verse 13, it states that but when this spirit of truth comes, he will be, He will guide you into all truth, for He will not speak on his own authority, but He will speak on what he hears. So if the Holy Spirit is guide, why
doesn't he have any authority to speak? Thank you.
If you look at if you look at how
the gospel of john is, using these terms, it's the emphasis in these passages is not is not
that the Holy Spirit is not God or that Jesus is not young. He's trying to show that they're they are one, like in other words, in john chapter five, right? Muslims love to bring up john chapter five, where Jesus says, of my own self, I can do nothing check check working, says of my own self, I can do nothing. I say, haha, right there, which is parallel to the spirit doesn't speak on his own on his on his own authority. Right? If you look at what's actually going on there, at the beginning of john, I mean, earlier in john chapter five, because Jesus is calling him self, the son and saying that he can work on the Sabbath, because the father does notice Jews are not allowed to work on the
Sabbath. Jesus says, but the father works on the Sabbath. And so do I. Right? When he said that they accused him of claiming to be another god, right? He's a rogue deity. Like he's a, he's separate. So what he does there and the rest of john chapter five, that's where he claims to that he's the one who raises the dead at the resurrection. He says that he's the one
who is the final judge. And he says that we have to honor him just as we honor the Father. Right. So keep in mind, we have to you would only honor someone the same way you honor the Father if he has the same nature, nature and attributes as the Father. So when he says when he says that he can do nothing of himself, or when the Holy Spirit does not speak on his own authority. What these are saying is, they don't do these things separately as separate deities from the Father because that's the accusation. As soon as you start saying some things are divine, they start accusing you of saying there's other gods. So the emphasis is he doesn't do this on his own.
All right, thank you very much, Dr. Wood. We're past the halfway mark right now and q&a. We're gonna try to speed it up as much as we can. So we'll we'll limit each answer to one minute for both speakers. So I think the next question is for Mr. hijab and go ahead and speak. Yes. I have a question for Mr. hijab. I was wondering since the thrust of your argument, hinges on David's inexpert flaw knowledge of Arabic, don't you think it's a little odd that the will of God can only be discerned by people who speak in esoteric language spoken by less than 5% of the populate world population, and which has many dialects, and isn't even spoken by the majority of self professed
Muslims and what do you think of the fact that there are people who are very learned in Arabic who even born in Arabia who have the same epistemological, moral, scientific and historical critiques of the Quran
Thank you for your question. Your question was about the Arabic language of the Quran. And you were saying that, is it? Is it the case that only Arabs can access the Quran in a nutshell? Is it Why is it that only 5% of the population can access this? And the rest? Cannot? Now, there's a difference between understanding the fundamentals of a religion Yes, and trying to do extra Jesus? Yes, extra Jesus is when you try hermeneutically to go into the text and understand it holistically. And for that you require language ability. For that to require whether you're doing with the Bible or the Koran, you're required to have some kind of ability to understand the language Otherwise, your
hermeneutic will be necessarily limited. Now, just quickly, as I do have a little bit of time answering the question or the point on on john, that, that David talked about? Non john, john chapter 10, verse 34, Jesus clearly says, why'd you call me God? I mean, they were about to stone him when he said this. And he's really is referencing psalms 82. So if he really believed his God, then why is he saying, didn't? Didn't you say this of old black? He are God's new gods? In other words, it's the language of the people. And that's one of the biggest problems. Sorry, sorry, I'm sorry. Good.
question for Dr. Wood.
I have one question for you. It has three co equal parts. But I assure you that it's just one question try to keep it to one we're trying to get as much as
three, three is one.
can ask it?
Would you agree that the concept of the Trinity has evolved over time? What do you say about Revelation chapter 22, verse 18, to 19, where it says, I want everyone who hears the word of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book is etc, etc, etc. And can you explain Matthew chapter seven, verses 21 to 23, where Jesus says, I never knew, I never knew you get away from me.
Well, there he says, Not everyone who says Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father.
So he will say, I never knew you.
I don't understand what what the problem is there. Jesus calls himself Lord, but he's saying not not. You don't just call him Lord, and then and then you're fine.
mozila What do you would you agree that the concept of Trinity has evolved over time? Well, no, the the clarification of the concept, right? Given like, whether you're talking about the Quran, whether you're talking about the Bible, you have historical events, you have revelations, from prophets, statements, and so on. And if you're coming up with the creed, you're trying to clarify it, you're trying to make it as concise as possible. So yeah, they had to figure out how to say things in using certain terms in language, but
the triune, God is eternal, right? The triune, God is eternal. Our our descriptions, our descriptions may take time. But that's not that's not the Trinity evolving. It's our concepts being clarified. And what about the third part where I said, What do you say about Revelation chapter 22, verse 18, to 19, where it says, I want everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, etc, etc. Well, the book of Revelation, the author didn't know he's going to be writing last word of the Bible. He's talking about his prophecy, his prophecy Book of Revelation, don't take my prophecy and add a bunch
of words to them. So he's just saying, Hey, don't add to my prophecy here and act like it's my prophecy. That doesn't mean you can't clarify concepts. Right. So I thank you very much.
question for Mr. hijaab. Yes, question for Mr. David. Sorry. I have a question for Mr. Mr. Wood, would have a question for Mr. Jeffers. Anyone wants to answer a question? Go ahead. Hello, sir. I had a question for you. Yes.
Are you certain that you will be going to heaven? Jana, as according to Islam says yourself?
No. Does that concern you? Maybe David will go to heaven and I will go to hell. That's a possibility. You know, I mean, I as a Muslim, as a Muslim, I can't guarantee and you know, Christians say Christians say that, you know, God, this is one of the arguments that you can't guarantee yourself the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But what why is that amount to the falsity of Islam I mean, what logical reasoning
Is that anyways, the point is, say, for instance, you're Christian, and you believe that if you're a Christian, you're going to go to heaven. But even according to your own belief system, there is a possibility, a logical, rational possibility that, for instance, you'll die upon Hinduism, or atheism, or D or Judaism. And in which case, you will have to, you have to conclude that you cannot be perfectly sure that you're going to heaven, because that would mean that you have perfect knowledge of the future. And not only do you not have that perfect knowledge, not, not even the Holy Spirit had that knowledge. Thank you very much.
You may ask your question for Dr. Would
you say the beginning there, the guy was in heaven, and he was his spirit was hovering over the heaven. And it was a mystery and the mystery was supposed to be revealed. But it went on more into dark, the mystery never got explained. If I am if I'm pushed towards believing God to the mystery, it will be Hinduism. When God comes through multiple incarnations to Earth in order to fix people.
Does that mean Christianity is a subset of Hinduism? Were any claims Jesus came as a incarnation of God?
Know
in Hinduism, it is a common belief that God comes as incarnations. And I suppose you also believe that Jesus came as incarnation of God, onto the earth to fix people and to teach them morality? Does that mean Christianity is a subset of Hinduism in terms of its beliefs?
No.
You can't say anyone who believes in an incarnation is a subset of Hinduism. If someone who has never heard one single thing about Hinduism, which would have been first century Jews, believe in an incarnation has nothing has nothing to do with with Hinduism, just because you have
some sort of parallel in some way. Like, ah, but there are many religions that believe in rising from the dead doesn't mean they all stole it from each other. So no.
Next question for Mr. hija.
Oh, yeah, guys. Thank you for coming. Thanks, Mohamed. Yeah, so my question is like, there was a question that David asked about the fact that the Quran says that
the Quran says that the followers of Jesus are supposed to be uppermost. Yes. And, and so like, I was wondering what your understanding of that is, because I thought that them being uppermost would be that they are the ones who are going to overcome over the disbelievers. And so we obviously know that Christians, the Christians who were there during Mohammed's time he lived in the Trinity. And so like, I was just wondering what happened to Jesus's disciples, according to Islam, and why did they Why are they not able to counter the false Yes, disciples? Well, in the Quran, it says about this, it says vagina Latina Taobao confocal vena cava rely on Korean talking about the moon, it says
that we're going to make them higher than those who have disbelieved until the day of judgment. Yes. So it's talking about the disciples of Jesus. We believe that those early Christians were on the truth. Let me repeat, the Quran says very clearly that those Christians will go to heaven, those Christians will go to heaven, they believed in Christ, they will follow Christ, they believed in his law, etc. Now, there's a difference now is a point of demarcation between the early Christians, the disciples, and then the church fathers, and then those who came up to those. So the point is, as Muslims our creed is, we believe Jesus was innocent of all of this, that his followers were innocent
of all of this, and that they are people who are honored in Islam and whoever says anything wrong about the disciples in Islam has left Islam because there's something in Islam. Yes. Which is very clear. It's a clear point of our feeder for us. Yes, if anyone curses the hell out of you on the disciples, this is cool. Because a lot he says what dilute which means this belief? Well, Jaiden Latina,
Latina,
at the same time, Allah, Allah says,
in the law,
the ones who say that Jesus has gone they are this believers as well. So it can be both ways can't be both. Thank you very much.
One question for Dr. Berg. Before I begin, David would said that the companions of the Prophet do
FIDE the Prophet. Well when he died, abubaker told the people that he told the people that the Prophet has passed away, but God is alive and he can never die. So he McCloud ebooks. 6400 472. Now, before that was just a clarification, my question is, in the Old Testament, God says he is not men, Hosea 11, nine, and he is not the son of a man number is 2319. And he has full knowledge, Psalms 147. Jesus is a man he calls himself the Son of men, and he doesn't know everything. Christians will say that was before he took on the body and he took on the attributes of men. But doesn't this contradict malikai three, six, where the Lord says he does not change?
I was like 12 things. It was one thing, try to answer whatever you can. All right. As far as Yeah, I understand that Mohammed has died. The problem is that Islam keeps taking these things like the Blackstone and the Kaaba and Muhammad and treating them in a way that is far beyond what you would expect for a for a mere creations, you guys to understand, you know, Muhammad died, and he's not a god in that sense. I'm saying they're showing reverence that should never be shown to a mere human being.
As far as God not being a man or the Son of Man, if you look, what's what's being said, there, God has asked to change his mind. He said, God is not a man that it should that he should change his mind. So it's saying his characters not going to change, which is the same thing you find in Malaga, God is not going to change his character, or in that way, it doesn't mean God can ever do something different in some way, or that God can't, can't enter creation. He starts he enters creation repeatedly in Genesis, right, he walks in the garden with Adam appears to Abraham. So God doesn't that's not what they're talking about as far as as far as God changing, as best I could do in one
minute.
One question from Mr. Hit job, maybe beat him. Is that a job? Sorry? Yes, sir. Yes.
The Prophet Muhammad Sallallahu. wasallam uses the Bible as his basis to validate his prophethood, especially in the words of Jesus Christ, when Jesus Christ said, I'm going to the Father and I'll send you a comforter, the Spirit of Truth, who be with you and teach you into all truth, like one of your famous apologists are making that refers to that scripture as the validation for Prophet Muhammad's Prophethood. Now, what do we make of what Jesus Christ said, and fatica Lee to His disciples, that they should go and wait upon him in Jerusalem, and then the spirits will come on them. And in the book of Acts, we witness a spectacle where the Holy Spirit comes to the disciple as
globing, tongues on fire. And we see a significant transformation from in the lives of the disciples. And from there, even the Roman government could not resist the power and the demonstration of the Holy Spirit at work in the disciples. And over the years, Christianity has prayed not by sword, but by the demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit, how do we reconcile these demonstrations of the Holy Spirit reference to what's
out there? So let me try and cover
just one request we get. We're gonna, after this, we're gonna have to take just two more questions and try to keep your questions like, like, you know, as simple as possible, because, you know, we're trying to take as much as I can, but, you know, it's impossible with you stretching the questions like that because we have limited time. So, okay, so there are a few points. First thing he said is about taking the Bible as an authority. Yes, the Quran says the Injeel the Torah, but the original one center of Moses and Jesus, and the evidence of that is chapter five, verse 46, where it talks about a failure and by the grace of memoriam and then it goes well, yaku manual engine demanded
Alavi the lamb hair is a lamb Talia has this meaning it goes back to the previous passage. And the next verse, chapter five, verse 48, says, well, Mohammed and Allah, the Quran is a guardian over the Bible. Yes, this book is a guardian over this. So it's an authority in as much as it does not contradict the Koran according to the Quran. Now, that's point 1.2. about Christianity not being spread by the sword is a misreading of history. Actually, if you look at Constantine at the theodosian code, actually, the only way Christianity spread through the Roman Empire was through the sword, look at the primary source material, but the theodosian code from theodosian is the second he
enforced Nicene trinitarianism by force, according to all of the historians across the whole of the Roman Empire until the pagan religions of the Romans were completely disappeared. Not to mention, of course, colonialism, not to mention
Of course, the Spanish colonists. Not to mention, of course, one of the biggest, one of the biggest casualties in war in human history. Yes. One of the biggest was when the Spanish Empire and the French Empire and the British Empire spread. It's your country and Africa is spreading everywhere. Don't tell me.
Don't tell me it wasn't spent by the sword. What are you talking about?
The difference between Islam and Christianity in this regard was that Islam spread organically, whereas Christianity required a man who was an empire at that time to spread it forcefully. We fought as Muslims, the bigger enemy, you were the bigger enemy fighting the smaller people. That's the difference. Tell me about these things. This is a mystery history.
Thank you, for your answer. Your question for Dr. Woods.
Dr. Wood, it's an honor to be here. I want to first thing
I want to first thank you, I converted to Christianity this year, January 1, and part of it was because of the answers that you have given me, so thank you. I've watched a lot of your debates with Shabbir Ali and others. Mr. hijaab is talking about William Lane, Craig and how respectful they are. But I mean, if this doesn't work out, maybe he can do some stand up comedy. But you asked me You asked somebody asked about Melchizedek. So could you please explain who Melchizedek was in the Old Testament? Thank you. Oh, with with, with Melchizedek? Well, we're down to one minute now. But if you look at what the author of Hebrews is doing,
he's saying that the Jews already had their own
priesthood, the priesthood, but the Messiah is going to be from the order of Melchizedek. So he basically says, What are the differences in the descriptions in Scripture? He This is a guy who reads kind of codes into the Bible, right? He's looking for codes in the Scripture, they took this very seriously.
So he says, What's the difference in the description? textually between Melchizedek and,
and Levi, and that's going to tell us something about the Messiah. So he starts doing this Haha, well, we have a genealogy for Levi, we have none from a kiss of death, right? And so he starts going down the list, and then he draws a meaning out of it. He's not actually saying that he's eternal or something like that. He's saying according these passages, we can learn something. And his conclusion is that the Messiah is eternal. Not that not that not that Melchizedek is. Thank you.
Thank you.
So Hello, Mr. President. I'm sorry, Mr. President.
Mr. President, so this is the final question. Yes.
Of course. Okay. Yeah. Question for Mohammed hijab. Yeah. You, sir, have been a complaining that David woog mocked Muslims. Sorry. You have complained that Mr. would have mocked Muslim? Yeah. And you have been mocking him all night?
That's right.
My question goes around to authority. You have been attacking the authority of Christians on which authority we base our faith on Trinity. So
yes.
Okay. And you seem like you believe in church more than Christians do.
Let me tell you why. Because you ask for church authorities, church scholars, Christians who have somehow in certain time talked about
the Trinity. Let me tell you and teach you something about Christianity tonight.
I'm willing to learn from you.
Number one is Jesus Christ.
The Bible.
So when we cite scriptures, we're citing a lot more than Augustine that you worship.
Okay, can you put the
Genesis 126 a woman can speak here, right.
Okay. So,
pose a question. Go ahead. Genesis 126. Yes. Then God said, Let us make mankind in our image in our likeness, in 27 says So God created mankind he his own image in the image of God He created them male and female, he created them
God is speaking by himself. Sorry okay. Plural
he calls himself him
either you believe in Genesis
Moses which wrote the Genesis or you don't believe and you're a bad Muslim to
your face,
I want to understand how that you claim authority on Mohammed
who
had
among multiple wives
according to others, please please settle down.
I want to understand
Excuse me, excuse me miss you either ask a question. This is not
you're not debating either ask a question.
either ask a question or you leave Thank you very much. Okay.
No, actually behind you.
A question.
Actually, before before that happens we have Mr. harddrive who wants to answer the question, you know.
Why do I Why do why am I firm and assertive with David worked is because he spent 20 years of his life, mocking Muslims and Islam, accumulating more than 50 million 60 million channel views attacking Muslims in Islam, which has led to brothers and sisters of mine being attacked on roads in this country exacerbating Islamophobia. This man is not going to get a nice favor from me. He's not gonna get it. This guy is not James White. This guy is not William Lane Craig. This guy is no respectable, so he will not be treated with respect. Now.
Now just because your boy was smashed to us.
It doesn't mean now that you're gonna give me a settle down please. Yes. Now, point number two. Point number two. She mentioned many things multiple wives. Well look at look at the Old Testament, please. It used to talk about the Old Testament. Abraham had three wives. Solomon had 300 wives.
You're very lucky that Islam capped at four because if it was in Solomon's time, it would be 300 now religion shooting now I don't understand.
Why. Why you must be very upset with me like this. I mean, why would you not upset with David Wood when he was mocking the Muslims for 10 years?
You're a hypocrite. You miss are a hypocrite. Okay, get the next question.
I want to end this on a good note. So we have one question. No, no, this side this side. This side this side? We're trying to get him first we'll get we'll get you after
what we sent what precentage of questions had memorized the entire Holy Bible.
Can you please
answer the question? What I know is that most of the Muslims memorize the Quran quickly. And do you know any Muslims that many Christians don't memorize the Bible quickly or any any percent of them? Well, the the Quran is designed for an oral culture to be memorized easily right?
Okay.
Please settle down please settle down and be respectable, please there.
There are hundreds of 1000s of people who have memorized Dr. Seuss's Green Eggs and Ham does that make it the Word of God Ladies and gentlemen, I'm trying to be respectful here. Because these are young guys here. Christian and Christianity. The Bible is meant to be a book that's read. Right? That's the idea they they wrote creeds and you would memorize Creed's, we have some of them, they wrote songs, they memorize songs, but the the books of the Bible are written down to be books and to be read in public. The Quran, the Quran is meant to be is meant to be is meant to be memorized. So there are different kinds of Scripture, why you would say, oh, a book that's more memorizable or
something like that is must be more of the Word of God or something again, that would make green eggs and
him much, much more the Word of God than the Quran because it's much, much easier to understand.
My little side note as far as mocking Muslims because it's been brought up like 1000 times I haven't I haven't, I haven't responded. I mock teachings of Muhammad, right, like, like dunking flies and drinks and things like that. And if you say that's not what I read about mockery in the Muslim sources, right, I mean, when there was a polytheist there aboubaker said, go suck a lot. Close your ears if you're a child. He said, go suck lots of glitter is to one of the polytheists there mocking the beliefs of the polytheist over and over again, we find them mocking the beliefs. If mockery is bad, then you have condemned your own God and your own profit. So okay, please settle down. Please,
please settle down. Settle down.
please settle down. Seriously, this is not you guys claim to be Muslims. It's not how Muslims act. This is not how Muslims act. You guys want to represent Islam. We have Brother Mohammed hijab here. He's done a very excellent job, basically undoing everything that he has done tonight.
Please be respectful. And we're going to end our q&a session right here. Thank you very much for coming. We're gonna have food in the cafeteria right across in the academy court building. Thank you very much for coming. Your college Muslim Student Association. Thanks both Dr. Wood and Brother Mohammed hijab. Thank you so much.