Hatem al-Haj – The Halal & Haram Of Masjids – Behind The Minbar Podcast
AI: Summary ©
The holy grail is a place for belief and learning, where individuals can build a social presence and a place for sick individuals to be attended to. The importance of cleanliness and respect for the holy grail is emphasized, along with setting policies to prevent discomfort and chaos. The speaker also emphasizes the need for consistent behavior and proper clothing for events, while avoiding third spaces to point people and encourage them to trust in the Islam world.AI: Transcript ©
Welcome everyone back to our,
blueprints for a better masjid behind the podcast.
We are honored,
to have doctor Hazem Al Hajj with us.
Sheikh for
being with
us.
I'm not going to, make anyone uncomfortable. I
know how much Sheikh Hatem
hates his bio being, mentioned. Yeah. But
I I will I will leave that to
our viewers, and I'll put it in the
description
of the YouTube video. Was doctor Hatem, in
addition to sort of his academic achievements and
his involvement both in the medical and the,
Islamic law world,
has been a mentor of mine for over
over a decade and very much involved in
the mentorship of many community leaders, many grassroots
project, whether, their civic engagement related with,
building blocks, Minnesota or New Jersey or otherwise.
At many Masajid, across the country, we ask
Allah to accept from him and to propel
his positive mark
far and wide.
Through at least 11 questions. So please forgive
me,
if I'm racing,
or,
I I prompt you over and over again,
at at a rapid pace.
But the the the impetus behind the episode
is that many of times we may,
unknowingly become negligent towards the sanctity of the
Masjid on one hand. And on the other
hand, we may create artificial conflicts or sort
of restrict our self unnecessarily due to not
knowing the,
the the injunctions our deen has placed regarding,
the houses of Allah.
But before we get into that, that, can
just in your own words, Sheikh, especially for
minorities here in the west, but universally,
the prophetic masjid or the masjid in Islam,
what does it represent?
Well, the the Masjid in Islam is not
a prayer hall. It is not the physical
place where people come and pray and leave.
And it is not,
whatever is, basically,
in in the minds of some of us,
like a a sterile clean very very clean,
very sterile,
very quiet,
place where people come,
to pray and then they disperse after the
salah. However, it is
an institution.
It is
where people
come to
receive their bill.
It's
people need to learn how to prostrate their
hearts as they prostrate their bodies,
and that would require tarbayyah, and it would
require mentorship, it would require
education.
The masjid is certainly built for
Zakirullah and Yikamat Salah.
The remembrance of Allah and the establishing of
prayers.
As the prophet
said as Allah said, you know,
So in in houses
that Allah had commanded or ordained that they
be raised, that they be established,
and that the man that his name be
remembered.
And then
with with Gracias Murrow,
wherein,
men
exalt his praises,
day and night or in the morning and
the and the evening.
They are not distracted by commerce. They are
not distracted
by vanities,
from their remembrance of their lord.
They are not distracted from the establishing of
prayers and given
the zakat,
yachafoneh omen. They fear from a day,
in which the hearts and the visions
will turn about in fear, will turn about
in fear. So
this is these are the masajid, this is
what they're meant
to to be. This is their main purpose,
this is their main objective
and the prophet
also corroborated this when he said
And the masjid have not been built for
this. That that is when he instructed the
the bed woman man who came and urinated
in the masjid. He said to him the
masjids were not built for this. They were
built for the remembrance of Allah
and, establishment
of prayers.
So that's the main purpose and it should
not be, you know, we should not be
distracted from the main purpose. That's the main
purpose of the masajid.
There are, you know,
very, very close to this, you know, within
that circle of within that target
would be.
And within that,
immediate,
circle in the middle,
would be tareem also education.
So, the recitation of the Quran, tareem or
education
along with the,
remembrance of Allah
and establishing of the prayers. However, you can
also see, like if you take a quick
tour through the masjidah of the prophet sallallahu
alaihi wasallam,
you will see that they that it was
used as a meeting place,
They socialized in the masjid. They ate and
drank in the masjid.
It served as
basically a place for sick people to be
attended to and, you know, as in the
story of Saladin Mu'ath, it served as a
shelter for the homeless.
As for many stories on the sofa, 70
people,
you know, that black girl
that was
basically,
accused of wrongdoing, and she was innocent.
And she was, basically they set up a
tent for her in the Masjid,
for a month,
and and she was there in the Masjid,
so it's not only
men.
It was also a shelter for
women,
and it
the presence of children in the masjid of
the prophet is undeniable.
Not only his own, not only that al
Hassan
who used to come and jump on the
back of the prophet
when he was frustrating
or that he used to
carry umama
when he was in salah and put her
down when he bows and pick her up
when he stands up. But also it, you
know, we we have these reports about the
prophet shortening the prayer
when he heard like the crying of a
child
because of his you know
concern for his mother's feeling, mother's
feelings.
So
so you know, like I said, it's an
institution. It is it is basically,
the most important
physical
and
spiritual
place. It's not only, you know, it was
not only at the center of their city
physically
but it was at the center of their
lives,
you know, social life,
political life. You know, they used to receive
delegations in the masjid. They used to prepare
expeditions in the masjid. They used to raise
funds in the masjid.
So
it was,
you know, at the center of their lives
in the physical sense
and in the,
social and, in every sense.
So the primary function of the Masjid
being the remembrance of Allah
and that which is most obviously connected to
that. Right? The ritual and devotional acts, but
it also involves community life
centered around it, not just a center like
a physical center, but they center meaning the
noun. It centers people around it by its
very function. But sheikh, you know, some people
have an apprehension because of the many texts
that we have regarding the sanctity of the
Masjid,
the sterility of the Masjid,
the the descent of the Masjid.
And so
I know you said so long as it
doesn't compromise the primary function of the Masjid,
but, you know, when we get to the
the the actual particular rulings,
what kind of noise is allowed in the
Masjid? Right? How important is the cleanliness of
the Masjid?
Do we have sort of explicit textual evidence
regarding this, or do we just try to
find our own balances,
our our sweet spot within every community?
No.
Certainly, you know, the the
the masjid needs to be clean. Of course,
it needs to be clean.
So, like, when the prophet
saw like a spit in the masjid, he
got upset and he covered that,
and he
he basically
talked about the the reward of,
burying,
any sort of,
discharge or,
like any felt,
you know, in in the masjid and
there are multitudes of ahadith. Allah
chose 2 mighty
prophets and messengers,
to purify
my house.
We instructed them
purify my house.
So of course, we have to purify the
masajid and we have to be clear about
this but in terms of sterility,
you know that the masjid of the prophet
had the branches of palm trees, the roof
of the masjid of the prophet
was made of branches of palm trees, and
when it trained, it's trained on the ground
in the masjid, and the prophet used to
prostrate in the mud
So they didn't have carpet,
and they didn't even have a roof until
Umar
instructed that they build, you know, the they
build a roof for the masjid to protect
them from the rain.
So would you recommend that?
No. I'm not saying that, you know, the
the things change, and we do we do
have to accept the fact that times change.
And, Omar Radiallahuhan who was not did not
commit a bidau, and he told them to
build a roof to protect the people from
the rain. If it was not possible during
the time of the prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam,
it does not mean that it is
intended for the Masjid to be muddy.
No.
No. Amr, I believe, sent it the masajid
as well during his kiddafah Yeah. And
when it became more cosmopolitan? Exactly. But at
the same time, he when he instructed the
builder, he said to him,
and don't use red or yellow in decoration,
for decoration,
to not distract the people.
And So elegant without flashy? Yes. Yeah. So
so functional is more is most important.
Utilitarian is most important. Functional utilitarian,
is most important.
Pleasing to the eye, you know. So,
you know, it should not be less
than the average household.
And Or school, their library, government building.
Exactly. Those places. So it should not be
less. It should be pleasing
and should be, you know, tactfully pleasing
without too much decoration that would be distracting,
to the,
you know, even,
you know, even if you're not going to
be praying, just,
you know, if you're going to sit down
and reflect or remember Allah Subhanahu Wa Ta'ala,
I think a serene,
environment
is pretty, pretty helpful.
What if I have a serene environment but
there's kids running around Sheikh?
They're not gonna be running around all the
time. They'll be running around sometimes but yes,
of course, our masajid should not be,
playgrounds all the time,
you know, and the the there are different
types of kids. There are kids who are
more than 7, you could basically reason with
them. There are kids that are less than
7, kids that are less than 7 that
you may still be able to,
tell them to, you know, to be quiet
and to respect the sanctity of the masjid.
And
the the the kids that deserve
disliked to to be brought in into the
Masjid are the unruly,
uncontrollable
kids that will cause,
disruption,
for people in their prayer. Now those kids
would not ever come to the Masjid, no,
because they you still can bring them to
the Masjid.
We need them to come to the Masjid,
but just avoid the time where people are
praying or, you know, there is a halakah,
people are reciting Quran if you're not gonna
be able to control them,
because then the main congregants,
the imam of the masjid and the the
main congregation,
they do have first right to the masjid
and to activities being held in the masjid.
So the the main purpose is also
they have they have priority.
So the prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said,
for instance,
So each one of you is in a
soft conversation with their Lord. So don't bother
one another and don't raise your voices above
one another.
Keep in mind they were all reciting Quran
so even if people are if even if
you recite in Quran, you still should be
respectful
of
the the needs of other people to have
serenity and to be able to concentrate on
what what they are doing.
So if if people are reciting the Quran
and are being told to not raise their
voices
so that they don't disturb others,
of course, it would apply a priori
to people who are doing inferior things,
to not disrupt,
these functions. So there is enough time in
the day where the masjid
where the masjid can basically serve,
different functions at different times. So, of course,
when, you know, Aisha says that,
kind of haban shayr went for masjid that
the Abyssinians used to play in the masjid,
well, they're probably It wasn't during Jummah. Yeah.
I got it.
So, Sheikh, is it within
considering there are different kinds of children and
you don't know sort of what lot your
demographic will have, it could be sort of
a a a warm blooded,
you know, family or sort of a more
docile, tranquil,
bloodline.
I sound so racist right now.
Well, everyone knows what I mean.
Is it within the domain of the managements
of the Masajid
to make a discretionary call here and say,
for us, we're not saying this is sharia,
but for us, here's our cutoff. Otherwise, they're
required to go to childcare or or because
you you can't tell someone your kid's the
bad kid. You're just gonna have to set
a rule for everyone else and say, I
need to be principled here for everybody else.
Is that within the domain of the leadership?
I think so. I think so. I think
that,
for the interest of the community, the interest
of the group, the congregation
should be given precedence over in the individual
interest of one particular parent or one particular
family.
And if,
I would prefer if
if people can
basically instruct the parents who who come with
unruly kids to to just watch over their
kids and just make sure that their kids
are not causing much disruption.
And in this case, I would not put
any cutoff. I mean, if there is, like,
you said docile,
like, if there is, like, a calmer child
I used to go to masjid, you know,
and be calm
and at a very early age. So if
you have, like, a calmer child, like, I
I now I'm, you know,
I'm thinking about it. Like, how would I
have taken
it if they told me to, you
know, I I
my grandfather used to take me. I was
5 years old or something,
and I used to be very respectful.
So
did you have the right to prevent me
from this? Now the said, if you're less
than 7, they disliked unruly kids less than
7 come come into the masjid or bringing
them to the masjid. And some some of
the people did not qualify by unruly kids
and, you know, of course. But what what
I'm trying to say is
it would have to be a matter of
judgment.
You know, if you are in a smaller
community and most of the people that that
come in and come in with their kids
who are less than 7,
they they their kids are behaved, and there
there are no issues.
Then and and you're getting, like, occasional
disruption
little child that comes once a month.
I I think I I would just let
this
be.
I think that is the the complementary factor
that's necessary. I mean, a part of,
setting the atmosphere right is going to have
to be relegated to the management to make
their decisions, set their policies as, you know
Yeah. As objectively as possible. But the other
side of it is just building a culture
of tolerance. I mean, kids will be kids.
The at the end of the day, the
kid who sort of, like, gets stuck or
yells or slips or gets distracted one prayer,
but that's not their norm. We we should,
you know, remember that these are the kids
we're gonna chase after begging them to come
back to the Masjid later. And whenever we
talk about you know, whenever we fondly and
rightfully
talk about that Hassan ibn Ali and Hussain
ibn Ali and how the prophet
treated them, how he treated Umama. Well,
was was jumping on his back when he's
praying. He was jumping on the back of
the imam when he was praying. Or walking
through the doors in Jummah. The prophet
would extend his frustration until sun comes day.
So would you call this a little bit
of disruption?
Yeah,
I guess. Coming off the member, picking up
the child, bringing him back with you. Yeah.
So so things like this will happen.
Shit. You know, I was in I was
in
where was I? Very reverent atmosphere, like no
one blinks in the hotel.
And so my daughter had just arrived, and
so she it's a new community for her.
She was 4 years
old. And I told her, sit here, and
I just I was made to turn around
the min bug, got on the min bug.
She start she had a she panicked.
She has a no single face, and
and so,
I had to for the sake of the
hudba. I got off the minbar, and I
got her immediately.
I replayed the the hadith of Hassan,
And then I just said, you know what?
They're very reverent. They're gonna think this is
horrible. Let me just explain to them the
hadith of al Hasan and I interrupted my
and explained it.
And one brother came up to me after
the and he said to Sheikh, I cannot
thank you enough. This masjid does not allow
children
to exist
even if they're quiet. That could have been
his perception. I'm not sort of and now
that I mentioned the name of the masjid,
I do need to qualify.
I don't know him. I don't know how
long he's been there. I don't know if
there's an isolated incident and sort of he
was rubbed the wrong way,
but,
like,
it happens. It does happen. Oh, no. Yeah.
It it does happen. So it depends on
the frequency and it depends on the amount
of disruption.
So it has to be, like, we have
to,
balance things out, benefit versus harm.
And we we cannot afford to make our
masajid unwelcoming to families, unwelcoming to children, unwelcoming
to women, unwelcoming to families.
The masajid should not be built for
old adult males.
And this may sound like
a little too soft, but that's that's the
reality. That masjid of the prophet was not
built for
all the adult males.
There were men, there were women, there were,
the, you know, children, there were every you
know, everybody was was there in the Masjid.
Masjid. So, Sheikh, let's talk about it. Women
in the Masjid, their homes are better for
them is something,
people may cite.
How do we make sense of a narration
like this and contextualize it at the very
least?
Well, of course, their their their homes are
are better for them, and the the this
was meant to be,
basically
reassurance for women,
that you are very busy
and that you are the the anchors of
your homes and you should be. And there
there is a difference between men and women.
And we as Muslims should never
blur out the distinctions between men and women
because once you do, you destroy the society.
We they have to complement one another.
Once you you keep on talking about equality,
equality, equality, and you don't mention any distinctions,
you you just say, blare out the differences.
You destroy the society because they're not going
to complement one another anymore.
If we're if we're the same,
you know, what what do we need? Like,
what do we need from each other? How
could do we come? No interdependence. So we
have that has to be clear. So men
are the anchors of their homes and the
prophet sallallahu alaihi wa sallam. I'm sorry women.
Men could be anchors in different sense as
well but anyway, but women are the anchors
of the homes and the prophet sallallahu alaihi
wa sallam wanted to say that you don't
need to be running to the masjid 5
times a day. And you still have the
reward. And you still have the reward because
you you are not coming to the masjid
not because you're lazy but because you're busy,
because because your home needs you, your 2
year old,
infant needs you and and so on and
so forth. But at the same time, he
said that,
don't prevent the the slave girls of Allah
to or women of Allah to visit the
houses of their Lord.
So
now
you you have also the the fact, the
very obvious fact that the wives of the
prophet and
the greatest of women in the history, the
female companions of the prophet
used to come out, you
know, the the
the night time prayers.
So they would fully come out
to often or they are never prevented from
that, but it Zoroaster were not the times
where they would come out, but they would
come out to the, you know,
the night prayers. Palace prayers. Yeah.
And then,
so
so did they then defy that sort of
recommendation of the prophet No.
They didn't, and they would not consistently
the wives of the prophet Muhammad al mumineen,
the mothers of the believers and the best
of the female companions would not consistently
substitute
the the inferior for the superior. They would
not choose the inferior over the superior consistently.
But they,
understood that
prayer alone they wore the prayer alone. Yeah.
Your prayer at home would be more rewarding
than your prayer in the masjid. But if
there are additional benefits to come into the
masjid,
then ultimately,
it may be better off for you to
come to the masjid. And that naturally won't
happen at all 5 prayers anyway, so we
still wind up at the same balance, Sheikh,
Allah. Exactly. Sheikh, you know, I've never read
this anywhere, and so I do need someone
to
to shut it down if it's wrong. But
I I recall when reading that hadith,
of the prophet alayhi salatu wasalam
telling the woman your home is better for
you. The the fact that he didn't start
with that. He said, and your masjid is
better than my masjid
better for you than my masjid and your
home and sort of like the privacy
within your home. And so the fact that
he it wasn't even about the masjid per
se. It was about that she was going
out of her way to get to the
most virtuous masjid wherein each prayer is worth
a 1000 times more than other masjid.
Is that a sort of a correct way
to because he didn't just say go home.
He said, your masjid. Yes. And then he
said your home, and then he said
the privacy the deeper privacies of your home.
Exactly.
It's it's
the the concept of,
like, you know,
which which which which talks about
being present in your home,
like, not abandoning your home, being the anchorage
in your home,
being closer to your home. The closer you
are to your home,
the better
off. That does not mean you will be
locked up inside your home and never,
be allowed to go out. No. It just
means that
that's your primary responsibility
and you want to take care of it.
You want to look after it. It's your
primary responsibility
And
Allah is most merciful and most generous. And
Allah will not change you. And Allah will
not give you a lesser reward than the
man who will go out because you're doing
something
essential
for the society, for the well-being of the
Muslim community. Family, there's no faith. Oh, of
course.
The back end of the hadith that you
qualified with There's no faith collectively, like, you
know, of course, but, you know,
we're at. So, a prophet can come in
the day of judgment. He had faith. He
could come out the day of judgment alone
without anyone else.
So
but but certainly, the family is,
you know, and I'm I'm not contesting the
the statement, but No. I just want it.
I just wanted to, you know, to contextualize
it. Of course, faith family is extremely important
to to have faith,
but you could be alone. You know?
I wanted you to do that.
And you you you are the Jamah. They
said the hamzaq.
You are the Jamah. You are the sort
of the earth you are aristocracy
even if you are on the top of
the mountain alone
So, anyway
So the continuation of that hadith do not
prevent,
the women from the houses of their lord.
It continues to say,
but they should come out undecorated or whatnot.
So should there be prerequisites
to the sisters being allowed into the masajid?
Of course, we're always going to be encouraging
them to take it upon themselves to fully
embody,
the modesty that Islam calls us to. But
is that within the domain of Masajid to
require?
They have to allow, and, I am
I believe that
I have a, like,
an a very unpopular position about this.
But I don't believe this only for Masada.
I believe this for every person of authority,
in our times
has to allow people room
to basically exercise
their religious agency and,
choose the position
that
they
are comfortable with.
Because you have diversity of opinions
within the different schools of.
You you have people who think that a
woman who comes in with a dress down
to her knees
and white pants, that this is inappropriate,
that this is un Islamic.
They would want to bring this, senator back
home. You know? Should they be allowed to
do this?
So
the idea here is we have to
be
very cognizant
of the wide spectrum of,
positions
on these issues
and
not
basically
be tyrannical in imposing
our own,
preferences or
over everybody else.
Then if something is freely
outside the spectrum,
contrary to scholarly agreement. Yeah. Just like completely
outside the spectrum,
then you you do have the right to
say,
something about it.
But again
that that is basically when
something can be said about it should you
say it it depends on
you know, and and I don't want to
undermine
the importance of Ramr bin Oraf and Naha
and Munkar or dating good and forbidding bad,
or mutual
advice between Muslims. And,
because that that is a goodwill for Muslims
when it comes out from a place of
goodwill. Because often oftentimes,
honestly,
it comes out from a place of
just,
dictatorship tyranny and and,
people manifesting their sicknesses.
But when
comes out from a place of goodwill, it's
beautiful.
You're actually sacrificing
his or her perception of you or her
relationship with you for his or her her
own interest,
and
prosperity in the hereafter.
So
here's something that needs to be said
but when should you say it? How should
you say it? And,
where should you say it?
In front of whom should you say it?
These are other factors
that
will require,
Imam Tameera
Abu Abbas.
He was never too shy to ordain good
and forbid bad. Everybody knows that.
But he he would emphasize the importance of
these two conditions,
knowledge and fairness.
Do it with knowledge and fairness. Don't speak
without knowledge.
And when you have knowledge, be also fair.
And unfairness
is a very comprehensive concept
so it does not only in you know
it's not only about not being aggressive or
no. It's about also choosing the right time,
the the, you know, the right context, the
right environment, and and so on and so
forth. Sheikh, I often tell people,
when they come to me and say tell
his brother x or tell his sister y
that do you know their name? Do you
know the do you know if they pray?
Because if they don't pray, then sort of,
like, you need to be picking your battles
right now. Do you think that's fair that
I have players sort of like that? I
think that's fair. I think that we should
we should certainly,
you know,
we should certainly
gain some, also,
like,
earn some asset
with the person, some credibility,
earn their friendship, earn their trust, earn, you
know, some of these assets
that would make them more amenable.
You know? Unless someone is doing something like
really crazy in the masjid, someone is bringing,
like, a bottle of champagne, for instance, in
the masjid,
you're gonna be doing something about it.
Fair enough.
So,
you know,
before my next question, you reminded me of,
an answer
gave to,
the Imam of Saudi Orange Islamic Center. He
he shared with me said that,
after he finished his studies in Medina, he
was, like, valedictorian of his class People that
don't know him, he went up to Anais
and studied for a few years,
but sent him off to Bosnia. It was
the war had just ended, and there was
a lot of, work that needed to be
done there, including Dara work. And so the
sheikh's growing up in a ultra conservative Kuwait,
and then he went from there to Medina,
which is like an upgrade. Right?
Even in that.
And so when he got to Bosnia, he
was he was feeling this,
this imposter feeling. He was feeling,
2 faced, the fact that he was sitting
and giving a lecture to men and women
alike. And these women, none of them were
wearing, head coverings.
And so he said, I waited all year
because he used to go back to Arthimin
every summer. He did this, I think, for
4 years or something. And he told him,
Sheikh, I can't stand the feeling. It's so
difficult. I'm just sitting there, you know, talking
to women that are dressed however they like.
And, so the sheikh said, where's Amr Maru
from the? Like, why aren't you commanded good
for bringing a heel shikh? Like, I don't
know what to do. He said, put up
a divider. He said, but they won't come.
We tried. They won't come if we put
up a divider. He said, well, what what
is so important that they have to hear
about and they insist on not having a
divider? He said, no. No. No, Sheikh. We
are literally doing ABC's Islam. We're doing patchwork
on their tahid. Like, there's sort of, like,
you know, superstitions and grave words. Everything is
there.
And then
stopped for a second,
and he said to me, Sheikh Isid is
saying,
who cares about hijab
if there's no tawhid?
Right? And so I think people also miss
the the point that people may not be
praying. People may not necessarily be even stable
in their in their tawhid, in their faith.
They're just enjoying the sense of community. They're
just sort of, you know, they're in it
for the ride for now at least.
The other extreme that people have is that
you have, like, an imam and a masjid,
for instance, for and for 25 years, he,
basically,
you know, presents these arguments, which are valid
arguments, but he has not taken his community.
He has not moved his community one inch.
No. You should you should really be working
towards,
you know because you do have to set
the ideals of the goal for system change.
So There has to be a process for
a change, and you have to be really
concerned about the person and really concerned about,
you know, correcting their mistakes and advising them
and educating them. You know, the example of
Al Hasan al Husayn, and they're they're making
wudu in front of the man who didn't
know how to make wudu.
So there there are ways,
Sheikh, could you share the story for those
who may not have heard it? Yeah. Just
that Hassan Hussein, the the the they found
this man who didn't know how to make
wudu, so they told him, can you referee
bet between us? Like, she tell us which
one of us can do,
would do better and then they made in
front of him and he recognized that they're
both making perfect to do and that they
just wanted to teach him how to to
make so it's it is basically
their, you know, very,
tactful
approach to.
They're they're
younger and they they wanted to approach an
older man, and they wanted to be respectful.
So just ask them to,
So I'll propose something, Sheikh. And if it's
a bad idea, we'll cut it out of
the video. Okay? Okay.
What we tried here, and we're all with
a working model,
is that we I try to encourage people
as a matter of culture to get to
know each other first and make sure people
are consistent in their 5 and so on
and so forth before they speak to them
on such issues,
that trigger their defenses and their egos and
whatnot.
And as for on the inside,
we require that our volunteers
be sort of having pressed
using proper attire. They're dressed appropriately, men and
women, of course, and so on and so
forth, but as for the sort of the
visitor, whether they're a Muslim, whether they're non
Muslim, of course, and all of that, we
don't have a prerequisite in terms of, wardrobe,
attire, and the likes.
Do you think that's fair?
It's a what if, like, someone came to
you in shorts?
I imagine that you're gonna.
What if a volunteer came to me in
shorts?
No. Like,
no.
A visitor,
like, a woman,
who like, a Muslim woman comes to you
in,
you know, short shorts. Yeah. We throw on
the flyer like Imada's dress appreciated and we've
never it's been years. We've never seen a
flyer. But but eventually you were you
you will say no to to some things.
Yes. There there there are there are there
have to be limits.
And
one of the things that people can do
is
to to basically remind people often enough
of the proper Islamic etiquette,
so that there is dissemination
of this knowledge within the community because if
we're not disseminating if we're too shy
to talk to women about hijab. Okay.
You know, or or talk to men about
things that trigger them or, you know,
then then there it will be a problem.
So there has to be consistent
dissemination of the the proper information and an
uncertainty you're doing this, Muhammad.
So so but what I'm saying is,
if it has been working for you and
you don't get those outliers,
often,
then good enough.
So pivoting over to non Muslims, you mentioned
an example of non Muslims. Some people worry
about a non Muslim entering a mussala,
a non Muslim interrupting a prayer rank when
we have sort of open houses, and we
all should have more of them, right, to
break these haboos in our societies.
Any regulations people should keep in mind
with the presence of non Muslims in Masajid?
The presence of non Muslims in Masjid, in
principle, is controversial, but I do believe that
non Muslims should be allowed into the Masjid.
The man of was
kept in the Masjid for days.
Or the Christians of were also kept in
the Masjid. The prophet used to receive delegations
in the Masjid.
So there is no problem for non Muslims
to to come into the masjid, but this
is a a controversial issue. And
one of my,
you know, most beloved masha'if, Sheikh Abdallah Shunkiti,
is very, very, you
know,
adamant about the impermissibility
of them coming into the masjid. But but
anyway, the majority of the masha'if,
support the the permissibility
of,
non Muslim non Muslims come into the masjid.
And we
we certainly
one one distinction that has to be made,
and this is an important distinction.
When we talk about the Masjid, what are
we talking about? We're talking about the prayer
hall that has been designated as a walk
for prayer.
We're not talking about the Islamic
Center. They're they're extremely important. By agreement, you
can't use the lavatory in the masjid, can
you?
And all over the Muslim world,
you know, there are bathrooms inside the Masjid's
building. So that's technically not a Masjid. We're
just using that term loosely. Masjid. We're yes.
Therefore, the Masjid proper is the prayer hall.
Area designated for prayer. So we can buy
and sell outside. We can have a bathroom
outside of the prayer hall. Make announcements outside,
all of these things. And if you do
believe that non Muslims should not come to
the Masjid, if you do believe that menstruate
our menstruating woman should not come to the
Masjid, I mean, the the first position is
a little bit you know, there is a
difference between the two positions. In strengths. Yeah.
In strength. But but if you do believe
in these positions, then,
that does not apply to the Islamic Center.
It applies to the
masjid proper, the area designated for prayer.
Wonderful. Exactly.
Actually, that was my next question or 2
questions ahead. So we got a 2 for
1 sale on that one. Yeah. And then
you should you should be certainly, when you
bring in non Muslims, you will have to
show some flexibility.
You will have to show some flexibility,
when they come into the Masjid because,
you you just can't say
men only, welcome or, you know, it
they will welcome there will be men and
women.
And
you're
you're you're going to also,
you you will have some,
basically you you you need to prepare for
this and you need to be basically inform
the people beforehand about the aliquettes in the
masjid. And most of the time, people will,
you know, non Muslims in in our communities
here will be respectful of your,
values, your principles.
If they're coming to visit you in the
Masjid, they're already open minded and respectful. They
usually ask us what should I wear? I
have something in the car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Yes. Alhamdulillah.
Sheikh, spending on Masajid
donation donations and otherwise.
Zakah money on Masajid.
Where can it? Where can't it be used?
Masajid. Well, first of all,
So you you have to really dedicate the
purest,
most wholesome
money for building the masajid.
So that that is not the the Zakat
money. That is not the Zakat money. So,
and and this is for building of Masajid?
Building of masajid. This is and building of
masajid is the obligation of Muslims,
you know,
you know, aside from the zakat and aside
from salatah, it's an obligation
on the Muslims,
in the community.
And if they don't, then they had all
failed
in,
this obligation.
So no no. You don't take Zakat money,
for for this purpose.
However,
as you know, and I'm just
had,
basically
given a thought on this before
that,
the Masjid are basically
the the the most important outpost,
you know, for Dawa.
And maybe the word outpost is not the
most suitable, but but the masajid are the
most important outpost for dawah. You you
like and so if you cannot have a
masjid, what kind of dawah would you have?
In this sense,
if there is like an indigenous community in
some little town and they don't have enough
money and they can't raise enough funds and
they have some money to use towards building
the Masjid, it would be okay
because you do need to have a Masjid.
They need
to have Exceptions should remain exceptions. Yes. But
just to highlight the importance of having a
masjid being absolutely necessary. Of course. And then,
there are certain functions in the masjid that
that would basically be eligible recipients of zakat.
You know, a masjid that is harim, and
the masjid itself is in debt,
or the of the masjid is in debt.
Can you pay off the ham, the debt,
or the debt that is due,
from this account money? Yes. You can.
The dawah also.
The dawah efforts inside the masjid. So the
salaries of the dawah workers, the budget of
the dawah itself?
Correct. Can come out from the zakat fund.
Can come out from the zakat fund. Now
is this based on the position of the
majority? No. It is based on the position
of majority of contemporary scholars.
You know, this is based on I think
it is the faqasembi of the Muslim World
League
position
that, you know,
the money that
has been
traditionally
in the, in the classical, you know, it
does not mean when we say traditionally, it
does not mean that no one ever said
otherwise.
You know, there are many fuqaha. There is,
like, a list of fuqaha who said otherwise.
But in the Mu'tamat position or authorized position
within the 4 schools of,
you know, the masrif
of, of,
is dedicated to jihad.
So number 7
7 out of 8
for you
know it linguistically
means what? In the path of God in
the path of God so
now
the the agreement with the form of the
hab is that this is only for jihad
and the Hanbali is added to this Hajj
because they consider that to be you know
Hajjafaridah
you know
the point of jihad.
But but that is the you know What
happened if he's at a Quran? But there
are certain there are certain,
positions
in the different.
Ta'alim,
for instance, can be in, you know,
in in,
in the Hanafi position.
However,
generally speaking
generally speaking,
most scholars committed
traditionally. Dawa was not one of the eligible
recipients
classically.
Now
for,
you know, imams like Al Kaffar, for instance,
and
this was mentioned by Razi and,
Istafsir and
and and others. It
was not limited to this. It's in the
path of God. In the path of God
included everything. It included even dams
and bridges And wells and bridges. And things
of that nature.
So is that, like, a popular position historically?
No. It is not.
Is it becoming more popular nowadays? Yes, it
is. And when you have collectivity
had,
that gives you some assurance
that we're we're not basically dealing with anomalous
oppositions,
based on the the understanding of 1 or
2 scholars no matter how great they are.
But collectively, how does give credibility
to the to the positions.
And this particular position that, you know, that
nowadays most of that you have that is
being done is intellectual.
You know, you're you're you want a basic
clarification,
the religion of Islam you know
how are you defending the religion of Islam
if you're not doing it intellectually nowadays like
where where are those basically volunteer mujayd?
You know because you know the fisavirullah and
the path of God it was not for
meant for the basically regular regiments
of the army
who was given their stipends
sort of annually or monthly.
It was meant for volunteers.
So where are those and and and so
how are you going to spend that particular
category?
I think that intellectual
defense of Islam
should be
a deserving recipient nowadays,
of course. I think I truly,
believe completely
in that position
being a superior position, particularly in our times.
Sheikh, I heard from, one of the
the scholars. And for for those, by the
way, listening in, almost every question I post,
today has been questions that have been data
driven. They've been sort of proposed to these
over and over again. So and also, Imam
al Masjid know that these are the common
questions and common concerns.
And themselves have taken upon themselves the assembly
of Muslim Juris of America to perform this
collective issue they had and arrive at sort
of a consensus on these issues and more.
So do avail yourself those resources. We'll also
conclude them in the video description,
amjohnline.org.
And they're they have these annual declarations based
on or resolutions
based on what they've arrived at after research
papers are submitted, conversations are taking place. They,
sort of convene, vote, consult, and then they
publish these.
I was just telling Sheikh Mohammed that,
was just telling Sheikh Mohammed when we on
our way here
that,
you know, the managements and the imam and,
the caretakers of the Masajid,
I would recommend for them to read
the declarations of AMJA on Nawazil al Masajid
with Maraqisil Islamiyah.
So, basically, contemporary matters regarding the Mosques and
Islam centers in the west. Centers in the
west.
So just Google this. It's AMJA and then,
you know,
contemporary issues related to mosques and Islamic centers
in the west. And in, inshallah, I can
provide a link.
Just if I can try to recap this.
So so to read them together is important
because we need to be on the same
page. Yeah and then we will disagree because
because we'll have different interpretations and biases and
so on but at least we need to
be on the same page as
basically the team that's taking care of the
Masjid, the imam, the management Yeah. The volunteers
and so on. That was where I was
coming to that. One of the masha'ik at
Amjad, he said,
Amjad's sort of declaration aside, he said, me
personally,
I have a little bit of a nuanced
differentiation between active masjids and inactive masjids.
He said, if I see the masjid active,
meaning more than just the 5 prayers, they're
actually propagating the deen. They're actually engaged in.
They're not tone deaf. They're not just restricting
themselves to what makes them feel nostalgic regarding
what a masjid back home traditionally would do,
then I believe it is permissible,
right, the condition of zakat sort of to
hand over the money, to give them the
money, and they use their discretion to decide
what it will be spent on within the
masjid. We're not talking about building. And so
he's saying, well, if we're not building and
if they're not inactive, I believe you can
give it to the masjid to decide
their priorities.
Would you, agree with this, or would you
stipulate that it need to be a Dawah
worker's salary,
sort of a a Dawah budget in particular?
Because there's the idea of the youth. They're
they could be also Muslims on the fence.
There's the idea of, you know, Zakkha and
the local community as well and what it
does.
Yeah. I I would, you know,
give it to the masjid, but
you you want
are you talking about
who are you? Are you an individual giving
your zakat? As a donor now. Yeah. You're
an individual given you as a cat. I
would give it to a masjid who knows
how to use it properly.
Like, I do a little bit of homework,
and I'll do a little bit of diligence
because,
that's part of, you know,
being
sincere in giving your zakat. You want your
zakat to
to be utilized in the best manner.
And,
even if you're not, the
would want you to give yours to divide
your zakat between the 8 categories. But even
if you're not,
you want to diversify also the beneficiaries,
the eligible recipients of your zakat. You want
to diversify,
but you want to be careful,
giving your zakat.
Certainly,
it's primarily meant to be for.
But if you want to give for other
purposes,
you want to do your due diligence. So
give it to the masjid
that will know how to properly use it.
Okay.
So just to recap it, you mentioned that
traditionally
the expenditure one of the 8 expenditures of
zakah in
the path of god, traditionally, it was,
not necessarily used for per se,
but it has been mainstreamed,
and the prevailing majority
of contemporary scholars collectively agree that in the
path of is
certainly valid for the zakat money, but they're
not necessarily talking about the building of the
masjid or an endowment that will fund the
masjid, not a structure like that or a
well or a bridge. It's the actual masjid's
activities and staff themselves.
And Freud struggle against them with it. With
it is what a Quran.
Jihad and kabir, a great struggle.
So
intellectual,
Dua intellectual jihad is a real thing. You
know, it's a Quranic concept. It's right there
in the Quran.
Sheikh, final question from me.
3rd spaces, Masajid that aren't up to par,
people feel disenfranchised.
What's your take on a third space? You
know, sometimes they have these cafes where they
have study circles going on or otherwise. Sometimes
for converts, sometimes for youth. Usually, it's for
the sectors that are underserved in Masajid.
Certainly.
You use any space that you can,
basically propagate Dawah in that you could help
people,
in,
with their, you know,
advancement and progress
in their in their religious commitment.
Use old spaces. Use your MSAs.
Use,
you know, private homes, use any space.
However, be careful not to undermine the centrality
of the place of the mustard.
Let alone combat it. Yeah. Of of course.
And then you should never do this,
because also when you have many of those
third spaces,
you will tend to have more unqualified
people or underqualified
people
preaching or teaching in those 3rd places.
So eventually, if if you're using those 3rd
places
to point people or guide people back to
the masjid,
that should be your attitude. That should be
your approach.
But to use third spaces to bring people
away from the Masjid or keep people away
from the Masjid,
I think that this would cause much harm.
We're not calling people with these 3rd spaces
away from Masjid. We're using them as an
intake method, a sort of a a springboard
into the Masjid. Yes. God bless its spaces.
Shirk,
any last advice for anyone caretaking for a
masjid or a custodian of a masjid? I
mean, that in the general sense, not just
in the
services sense.
To be as welcoming as possible, yeah, like,
you are the front, the front lines. You
don't know who's walking into the Masjid. You
don't know what they're going through. You don't
know,
if they just have an argument with their
wife or their husband. You don't know if
where they are in their religious commitment and
their journey, spiritual journey.
So be as kind as possible, as welcoming
as possible, as tactful as possible, prudent as
possible. Also with children, children are very impressionable
and if you,
basically,
faith grows by
faith grows by association
and then by persuasion
and then experience your your basic realization
of faith or experiential faith but for the
many many
for years in the beginning of their lives
let's say for 7 sometimes you can it
can be for for 10 faith is mainly
growing by association.
They will
like
Islam
because they like the Muslims,
they like their community, they feel welcome in
the Masjid, they connect to it. So don't,
be
a negative force
in the beginning of their journey.
It's like a look, hey, don't you? May
Allah help us,
carry this amen properly and and be guides
to his path and teach people to love
him. And,
as a byproduct of that, earn his love.
Yeah. He's
like everyone.
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