Channel: Adnan Rashid
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Hello, everyone, my name is Lynn. And I'm very happy to be here to chair the meeting. Tonight. The topic is who is Jesus, and our two speakers, a Christian and a Muslim. Both claim to believe in Jesus. But they understand him in quite different ways as we shall see.
So without further ado, let me introduce the first speaker, Dr. Bernie power.
Dr. Power has lived most of his working life in Muslim majority countries. He holds degrees in science, education, and theology. his doctorate is on comparative religion, comparing early Islamic and Christian texts. He travels to many Muslim and other countries in his teaching roles.
Bernie believes that there are many misconceptions held by Muslims and Christians about each other. It is important that these misconceptions be understood and addressed. This can be done in an atmosphere of love and respect. But with full openness and honesty, Bernie is dedicated to this vision.
So our topic tonight is who is Jesus? By the way, I've not chose these two topics. We've had some others that were there first. And then he said to these two, which I'm very happy to talk about. It's a very important topic. In fact, it's the most important question that you'll have to answer in your life.
Jesus is the person on whom your eternal destiny will depend. And I'll talk about that a little bit tonight. So this is a very vital topic for us to discuss. The story of Jesus starts a long time before his birth in a stable in Bethlehem. So with apologies to Stephen Hawking, I'm calling mine brief history of Jesus plus a whole lot more.
To understand who Jesus is, we need to go back before time began to me can you do the first one?
For for Muslims and Christians, we both believe that there is only one God, but we understand God in quite different ways. For Muslims, Allah is a simple unity, a mathematically singular mana monad with no internal differentiation. But Christians have a more complex understanding of the nature of God. We believe that God is a multifaceted unity, a tri unity, consisting of three divine persons sharing the same divine essence or nature. And the Bible teaches that the fullness of God is God, the Father, God, the Son, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. There's about 60 passages in the New Testament that include the three persons of the Trinity together. And we've got pamphlets about that up the
back if you want to have a look at these, and Father, Son, and spirit are also found throughout the Old Testament. So Trinity is not a single verse doctrine. It's something that's taught consistently through the Bible, from Genesis all the way through to revelation from the beginning to the end.
But our topic tonight is not the Trinity. But Jesus life and ministry can only be understood in the context of the relationships within the Trinity.
When Jesus came to earth about 2000 years ago, he was very clear about his pre existence. He claimed that he had come from where he was before he come from heaven. He come from above, he come from the Father, he come from God. And he said, I'm telling you about what I've seen in my father's presence, he had a prior life.
So what was God doing before the world was he was created. When Jesus came to earth, He actually told us, he said, to his heavenly Father, that you loved me before the world began. And he spoke of the glory that I had with you before the world began. So the three persons of the of the Godhead and I'll come to the Holy Spirit later, we're in the glorious, loving relationship before time existed, there was no need for anyone else.
There's a three word sentence that describes the nature of God in the Bible, and it says, God is love and love by its very nature reaches out to others. And so this love, over divine love overflowed into creating humanity. God made the word and everything in it and the Bible says of God's relationship to the human race, I have loved you with an everlasting love.
The Bible also teaches us that Jesus was involved in creating the world it says that through him all things were made without him nothing was been was was made that has been made. The world was made through him. And the scriptures affirmed that through Jesus God made the universe
but the Holy Spirit was also engaged in creation. In Genesis one to the second verse of the Bible. It says, The Spirit of God was moving above the waters. So the creation of the world of humanity was a cooperative effort. It involves all three persons of the Trinity
Muslims and Christians agree that God placed Adam and Eve in a beautiful garden so that they could love each other, but also to love him. And people were made for loving relationships with each other and with God.
God also created angels to serve Him and to worship Him. And one was called Lucifer who chose to disobey God, and he was cast out of heaven, we now know him as Satan or the devil.
And according to both the Quran and the Bible, Satan tempted Adam and Eve to disobey God, and they followed Satan suggestion instead of obeying God's command.
But God is gracious and he promised Adam and Eve that one day he would send a savior called the seed of a woman, which is an interesting term because in submitted culture, people were always named after their father. In fact, it's still the same in the Middle East today.
This savior would crush Satan's head and Satan would bruise the saviors heal.
Even though they have disobeyed God, God provided Adam and Eve with clothing made from animal skins to cover their nakedness. They tried first off with fig leaves, it didn't work. And God provided the clothing. And it required the death of an animal so that human sin resulted in the shedding of innocent blood right from the very beginning.
Adam and Eve had children and they to refuse to comply with God's command, and eventually the earth was filled with evil. The Bible says all have fallen short of the glory of God. And the Quran states. If Allah were to punishment for what they earned, he would not leave a single moving or living creature on the surface of the earth. So all of us stand under the judgment of God because of our failure. No one is exempt. God is holy and he punishes and must punish wrongdoing.
Then God chose one man Abraham and promised to make him a blessing to all the earth. He pledged to make him the father of a great nation. But Abraham had a problem. He didn't even have one son, and he was an old man. But God kept his promise because God always keeps his promises.
The Bible says that the one who brought this promise to Abraham was the Lord in English or Yahweh in in Hebrew. This is one of the many names of God in the Old Testament. And Yahweh the Lord was accompanied by two angels in human form. And the Lord gave Abraham the joyful news that he would have a son within the next year.
Moving forward 2000 years later, when Jesus came to earth, He told the people that that was him who was talking to Abraham. He said, your father Abraham rejoice that the thought of seeing my day he saw it, and he was glad. And by the statement, Jesus made the claim that he had existed in Abraham's time, and that he was the Lord he was yawei, and that he had come in human form to visit Abraham.
Now the Jews of Jesus, Tom was skeptical about this, they said, You're not even 50 years old, how can you claim to have seen Abraham, and He then made this other outrageous statement? He said, Before Abraham was, I am.
every Jew would have known that this is how Yahweh had identified himself when he appeared at the burning bush to Moses. And on that occasion, the Lord God said to Moses, this is what you had to say to the Israelites, I am has sent me to you, the Lord, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The Jews of Jesus time knew exactly what Jesus was claiming by by saying this statement I am, he was claiming to be God Himself. And so they took up stones to stone him that we're going to kill him on the spot for blasphemy.
But we've moved ahead too far. Let's go back to Abraham. Eventually, Abraham had a son named Isaac. And God asked Abraham to do something to us seems very strange, but to him he might have seen and not unusual was to sacrifice his son. child sacrifice was quite common in the Middle East at that state at that age. And Abraham obeyed he took Isaac Up, up Mount Mariah for a sacrifice. And as they're walking up there, Isaac, who probably by this stage was about 35 years old, says to his father, we have the wood and the fire, but where is the lamb to sacrifice? And Abraham says, God will provide a lamb.
Fortunately, an angel came and stopped Abraham before he killed his son and said, Don't lay a hand on the young man. Now I know that you feed God because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son. And Abraham found a ram nearby and sacrificed it instead. And the Quran speaks of this event in Surah 37. It says, We that is Allah redeemed him with a mighty sacrifice.
What mighty sacrifice was this going to be something that involved an only son something that would bring great redemption
was I had two sons and then 12 grandsons, and eventually they became a great nation Israel, as God had promised.
But they ended up becoming slaves in Egypt. And they cried out to God to save them. And to lead them out of slavery. He said Moses in and then God use an angel of death to punish Pharaoh, the king of Egypt and the people of Egypt. And the people of Egypt were saved only by placing the blood of a lamb, a Passover lamb on the doorposts. So it was the blood of a lamb that saved them.
They go out into the desert, most of them get Moses gave them a law to obey as a sign that they were the people of God. He told them to build a tabernacle, which is a mobile temple, a taught them a system of sacrifices of lambs and other animals, so their sins could be covered when they fail to disobey the law. And so we've got more blood being spilt day after day because of human sin. When is this going to stop?
On arrival in the promised land, the Israelites demanded to have a king just like the nations around them, even though God said, I am your king.
They have many kings over the coming centuries, and the greatest of them was David who killed the giant Goliath. But God promised David that one day he would appoint an even mightier King from David's line, a son of David, and this kings reign would never end.
God spoke to his people through the prophets and the prophets toll of a coming Savior, the Messiah, the anointed one. And they gave many details of his life. There's nearly 400 descriptions of what this faith savior would be like, I've got about 20 pages of them, if you want me to email it to you what he would do, it says he would be born of a virgin, he would be born in Bethlehem, he would heal the sick and the blind and the Deaf and the lame. They told it his character, he's going to be gentle and compassionate. But despite this, he also died a violent death for the sins of many. And they gave many details about his death. But they also declared that his body would never see
His universal kingdom would never end, we've had that promise before. And the nations would turn to Him His name would be Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, the Prince of Peace, he would be in manual which means God with us. God said, apart from me, there is no savior. And it's becoming clear that this savior who's going to be born in Bethlehem, would be God Himself.
But that raises a really deep philosophical question, how could the infinite Son of God become a finite human being? We know that God is eternal, he's omniscient. He's omnipresent. He's omnipotent. He's ever living. He has no needs. How could God take on a restricted physical body and become a limited human being? With a Bible actually gives us the answer to this, it says that Jesus gave up these qualities when he came down. And in Philippians, it says, Jesus Christ being in very nature didn't consider equality with God, something to be used to his own advantage or grasp, as it says, in some translations, rather, he made himself nothing. By taking the very nature of the servant,
being made in human likeness, and found in appearances a man he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.
It's said in the book of Hebrews that Jesus has made lower than the angels for a little while. And although he was rich, he was in heaven. He was he became poor for our sake, and he lived on earth as a poor man. So this diagram illustrates what happened to Jesus called the sun. He existed in three phases, there was before the Incarnation before becoming a human being, he lived in full divine glory with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
In the second phase, which was his time on Earth, about 33 years, he took on a human body with its constraints. The third phase was after his resurrection, when he and his ascension to heaven when he returned to his full glory. And we'll come to that later. Let's talk a little bit more about the second phase. in Nazareth, about 2000 years ago, an angel appeared to a virgin named Mary. And the angel said she was going to give birth to a boy who would be the Son of God. He'll be born in Bethlehem, he'll be named Jesus which means Savior, because the angel said he will save his people from their sins.
When Jesus grew up, his cousin, john the baptist saw him and said, Look, that is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
Jesus was baptized by john. And when Jesus came out of the word of the Holy Spirit, in the form of a dove came down and hovered over Jesus and then rested on him. And the heavens opened up and the voice of God the Father said, This is my son, whom I love. I am very pleased with him. So here we see the Trinity in full view at one time.
Jesus went into the desert where Satan tempted him, but Jesus resisted every one of Satan's temptations. Adam had failed.
Jesus was victorious.
When Jesus began his public ministry, he preached about the kingdom of God. He showed his authority by healing the sick and the blind and the death in the line, he raised the dead, he casts out demons. These were not just random acts of power and majesty or compassion. These were the fulfillment of Old Testament prophets, Isaiah 53. When your God comes, he will do all of these things.
Jesus also said that he could forgive sins, and this got him into trouble with the Jewish leaders who said, Only God can forgive sins. But Jesus made many other direct claims to divinity. He said, the father and I are one he said that he was the son of God. And again, the Jews picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy, they said, You are mere men are claiming to be God.
They reported him to the Roman rulers who arrested him. And although the Roman governor Pilate could find no fault in him, he handed Jesus over to be crucified. And Jesus death on the cross was a sacrifice for sin, like the Passover lamb, the bloodshed could now stop.
It was also a defeat of Satan who has the power of death, because three days later, Jesus rose from the dead. As he told his disciples he would about 30 times in the Gospel of Jesus refers to his coming, death and resurrection. Although Satan had bruised his heel, Jesus had crushed Satan's head.
after his resurrection, Jesus appeared to over 500 people, and he told his followers to go and make disciples of every nation and to baptize them in the name singular, of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He told them, he was going to prepare a place for them in his father's house, and that he would return to take all those who love Him. And He promised the gift of eternal life to those who believe in him. He said, I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and will not be condemned. He has crossed over from death to life, even in this life.
After 40 days, Jesus ascended into heaven. And this was the beginning of phase three. According to both Muslims and Christians, Jesus is now alive in heaven.
Jesus is now seated at the right hand of the Father in a position of power and authority, interceding for those who love Him. And one day, he will return on the clouds with the angels of heaven to judge the living and the dead. Those who have rejected Jesus or ignored him will be separated from God forever. And those who put their trust in Him and His death on the cross have been purified from the for their sins, and a worthy to enter into God's presence. They'll be welcomed into heaven, where they can live forever with God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, because God is a God of love. And he desires a relationship with every human being. But invitation is open
to all of us. And a person can enter into that relationship at any time because of Jesus.
So to summarize, we saw that Jesus has always lived in a loving relationship with God, the Father and the Holy Spirit from eternity. But love, especially divine love can't keep to itself. And it burst out into an act of creativity and affection, when God created the world and all of it, all who are in it.
But we haven't proven to be good objects of God's love. We will betray his trust, we will put other things in his place in our lives, that God is a God of Christ, and he put a rescue plan into place to save us. Jesus volunteered to come down to earth to be the bridge between us and God. And on the cross, he bought our shame, he bought our sin, He bought our sorrow, he bought our guilt, and he leads us back to God.
We can begin to live lives of forgiveness, peace and joy, in a loving relationship with God now, one day Jesus will return to establish justice on the earth, he'll put right all that is wrong. But he came to give us that offer God's offer before that time.
Those who ignore him or reject Him, will be left eternally alone away from the presence of God. But those who choose Jesus will enjoy the benefits of what he's done, and spend eternity with Him and the Father and the Holy Spirit. That's the promise that he gives to us. That is Jesus Christ. Thank you.
Thank you very much, buddy. And now it is time for Mr. Adnan Rashid to present his views but before that, let me introduce it. Mr. Adnan Rashid is a historian with a specialty in the history of Islamic civilization, comparative religion and Hadid sciences. He has an honors degree in history from the University of London and is currently pursuing further studies. He takes a keen interest in Islamic numismatics ancient
manuscripts and antiquities. He's personally serving as a hottie at the West London Mosque where he is conducting an extensive course. On the Task View of the Koran anon believes that Islam is a way of life which promotes modernity in all of its positive manifestations and provides practically realistic solutions for all problems of mankind. Mr. anon rushy before you start the time. I always like to share presence and gifts with my interlocutors in interfaith dialogues, today I have a very special present.
for Bernie powers. It is a coin from Mughal India, Mughals governed India for almost three centuries. And this particular coin is from the 18th century, and it was minted in Sha Johanna bar which is currently daily, and it was minted during the reign of the Mughal Emperor Farouk car who govern from 1712 to 1719. a token of my gratitude for Bernie powers efforts.
Bismillah R. Rahman r Rahim, in the name of God, the Merciful, the magnificent, the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and the God of Mohammed. Ladies, gentlemen, today, I've come to put the Muslim perspective in front of view
on Jesus Christ.
And this perspective, is, I would say, mostly, in line in line with what Bernie has presented. From the Christian perspective, we believe Jesus was a mighty messenger of God, we believe he was a prophet of God, we believe he was born.
Through it was a miracle. Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus Christ. Without any male intervention, we believe he will return to put the record straight, we believe that he was one of the most
upright people to walk the planet Earth. Where we do disagree, however, is the fact that Christians claimed that he was God with capital G.
If the Christian were to claim that he was God, with lowercase G, we could swallow that we could possibly tolerate that.
But when you claim for a human being to be God with capital G, that's a red line, according to Jesus Himself as we understand him, when we study Jesus, we study him in the light of the biblical literature, as well as the Islamic literature. Being Muslims, we believe the Quran is a revelation from God, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, was a true prophet of God, he was not an imposter, he was not a liar, he was not a pretender. Rather, he was a true prophet of God, we firmly believe that and what he taught about Jesus Christ was the truth. And we study Jesus in the light of his teachings, as well as the biblical literature. And as we will see, due course, ladies and gentlemen,
that Islamic narrative or Islamic view on Jesus Christ seems to be more consistent with historic Jesus than the Christian view.
to begin with, this is how the Quran entity introduces Jesus Christ. In chapter three, verse 59, we are told that Jesus was like Adam, because Adam had a birth parents and Jesus had a birth without a father. So therefore, both are very similar. This is what the Quran says about Jesus Christ, then, the Quran also states that it is not befitting of God to take a son for himself. Because the Christian started to claim later on in the first three centuries of Christianity, that Jesus is the Son of God in some sort of physical way. They started to claim that Jesus was made of God's own essence. Therefore, he was divine, albeit with a lowercase D. But he was divine. And a lot of the
Christian church for the first three centuries Actually, I would say over 90% of them were subordination is they would be deemed Herrick, heretics by
activists like Dr. Bernie powers.
Over 90% of the Church Fathers writing in the first three centuries of Christianity did not have
the conception of the Trinity the Christians have today. They were subordination is they believe Jesus was a lower divine person than God the Father God the Father had made him from his own essence. Therefore, he was divined by that virtue
This divinity was with low case D, not with capital D, he was some sort of divine person.
So, the Quran points to these things, and clearly warns the Christians and the Jewish people, the people of the book, do not exceed limits in your faith. All the people of the book, do not exceed limits do not go to extremes. Why? Because Jesus, the son of Mary, Messiah, the Son of Mary, was only a messenger of God, not just a mere messenger of God, he was a mighty messenger of God, but he was a messenger of God, indeed, and his word. And the Quran further explains what that word is, this word which was sent down upon marry, so therefore, believe in God and His messengers and do not disbelief. In other words, do not disbelief, because this is what God and His messengers taught that
this is what Jesus is, he was a messenger of God. He was not God.
So main story about Jesus Christ, the Quranic perspective, or Islamic perspective on Jesus Christ can be found in two places in the Quran. There are many places in the Quran, where Jesus is mentioned by name, of course, no doubt, but there are two passages in particular that give us some understanding of the Islamic view in Jesus Christ. first occurrence of this story is in chapter three, verses 45 to 52. And the second place where the Quran mentions Jesus and what happened with him and what his significance is in Islam is chapter 19,
verses 16 to 37. And these verses are very, very powerful. So this is your homework, go and read these verses, you will see what the Islamic perspective of Jesus is, is definitely one of the most powerful characters to walk the planet, we have to love him as Muslims, if we do not love Jesus Christ, we cannot be Muslims. We have to love him, it is part of our faith, we the Muslims, if we do not believe in Jesus Christ, and he's his strength and his message or his messenger ship, then we cannot possibly be Muslims. It is part of our faith.
these are the reference references on the screen you can see them that's where you will find Jesus Christ and His story in the Quran. So what are the descriptive titles of Jesus Christ in Islam, he is called Isa, Isa, the son of Mary 25 times in the Quran.
So these are some of the references you can see from the Quran in front of you. This is where he is mentioned by name. He
was called the Messiah, he was also called the son of Mary. And he was called the servant of God, all these things are mentioned in the Quran.
So what does Messiah mean according to the Islamic understanding Messiah meant in the Old Testament times, prophets, priests and kings were anointed by oil as a sign to show they were appointed by God. And in Islamic literature, Messiah could mean a number of different things.
Scholarly opinions vary in this regard. And I'm not going to go into the details but we accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah promised to the Jewish people. So he's mentioned as the Messiah in the Quran.
So, every prophet is anointed by God, we believe as Muslims, but almasi is exclusively for Jesus, He is the Messiah, Christians use the Greek word for Messiah Christ. So the Quran tells us in chapter three, verse 45, and mentioned when the angel said, marry or marry, Indeed, Allah gives you good tidings or word from him whose name will be the Messiah, he will be called the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary. And then we have the biblical reference, john, chapter four, verse 25. The woman said, I know that Messiah called Christ is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us. The Jewish people were expecting that Messiah to come, as the gospel of john tells us when john the
baptist was baptizing people in the River Jordan, the Jewish people came to ask him, Are you the Christ? Are You the Messiah? He said, No, are you the Elias or Elijah? He said, No. Are you that Prophet? Are you that Prophet, referring to the prophecy of Deuteronomy 1818 which was unfulfilled until that time?
So he was none of these things. So the Messiah was awaited by the Jewish people.
So son of marries another title 16 times it is mentioned in the Quran. So Jesus is mentioned 16 times by this title in the Quran.
Okay, and biblical references there Mark chapter six verse three, is not this the carpenter the son of Mary. So the Quran confirms the biblical
narrative in that regard? How was he the Word of God? How was he the Word of God? Christians have kind of misunderstood this particular concept, primarily due to what they find in the Gospel of john chapter one. Verse one, In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word became God. Right. And when you translate the the verse from the Greek language into the English language, you find a number of varying translations of the word.
God, when it refers to the word that the Word became God, in some translations, it is translated with lowercase G, and other translations. It is translated with lowercase D. In some translations, I'm pretty sure Bernie's Bible translates as translate the word as capital as God with capital G. So these are some of the debates taking place between Christian scholars and biblical translators as to what this word actually means when God refers to the word. So when it says, The Word became God, is this God with capital D, or is this God with lowercase G, and if it's God, with lowercase D, there is not a big problem because Moses was called God. In the Bible. In the book of Exodus, chapter
seven, verse one, Moses is called God, right? Israelites are called gods. In the book of Psalms,
Psalm 82, verse six, we are told the Israelites are called gods. So Gods with lowercase G is not a problem, biblically speaking, because that meant people of God, the agents of God, people bring the message of God, that's what it means. But God with capital G is a different matter altogether.
So his word he was his word, the fact that God said B, and he became, so the word B is the word used to create Jesus Christ. So this is how he was the product of this word,
which was used to create him.
As you can see on the screen, the Quran tells us, it is he who gives life and causes death. And when he decrees a matter, he bought says, to be and it is, and then, in chapter three, verse 59, of the Quran, we are told, Indeed, indeed, the likely likeness of Jesus to God, as the likeness of Adam, He created him from dust then said to him, Be and he was in chapter three, verse 47, we are told when Mary said, How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me? angel answered, who is seen as the Holy Spirit according to the biblical text, the Holy Spirit, the Muslims believe his angel Gabriel, Rococo, this is actually or the Holy Spirit is Angel Gabriel, the Christians, they
struggled to understand the concept of the Holy Spirit for almost four centuries. And this is another matter which can be brought up during the q&a. And I can elaborate on that Christians struggled to understand what the Holy Spirit is for almost four centuries. It is easy to quote the Trinity today, as established as it is in Christian minds. But it took Christians to formally define the doctrine of the Trinity 400 years, it was finally defined as the Christians believe in it today, in the year 381. c, in the Council of Constantinople. The Council of Nicea gave a creed to the Christians, that creed is primarily by Unitarian, it only mentions God the Father and God the Son,
it does not mention the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Trinity. This was a huge problem with the Christians the Christians were battling with each other on on doctrine, is it is God with capital G, is God with lowercase G or D, right? And if he's God with lowercase D, and G, what is his relationship with the Father, and this is where the area and controversy came up. Majority of the Christians up to the fourth century were Unitarian, in some shape or form, in varying degrees. They were not trinitarians the doctrine of the Trinity was forced upon Christians. After the fourth century, Emperor Theodosius the second, he made it a law to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity.
And anyone who did not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, was hunted down as a heretic by the might of the Roman Empire, Emperor Theodosius, and this, this is clearly stated in Theodosius theodosian code in book 16.
So he was also spirit from God. He is called spirit from God in the Quran, as clearly you can see those passages, Chapter 21 verse 91, states we breathed into her Mary from my spirit. Okay, spirit is again, Gabriel, a spirit created by him. Okay, chapter four 171. So Jesus is also called a spirit, not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is Gabriel. But Jesus is also called spirit from God like everyone else is all humans are spirits.
created by God, okay, every single one of us is a spirit created by God. In that sense Jesus was also a spirit created by God.
So, Chapter 66 of the Quran verse 12, states we blew into her womb through our angels, Angel Gabriel was used to blow the spirit in to the womb of Mary. And lo and behold, we had Jesus conceived.
So there are some other passages which I will skip very quickly so that we can get to other verses of the Quran. He is also called a sign in the Quran. And we made the son of Mary and his mother as assigned chapter 23, verse 15, Chapter 19, verse 21, states we may we may make him assigned to men,
Chapter 2191 states and we made her and her son assigned for all people. So Jesus has a very special place in Islam. He's the Messiah, he's a messenger of God, he's a prophet. He's the Word of God in the sense as I, as as I described it, or explained, it is the Spirit of God. And he's also a sign he will come near the end of times to put the record straight.
Sorry, I'm not changing that. Okay. That's where you can see references to him being assigned from God on the screen.
So where do we disagree? As Christians and Muslims, the issue of crucifixion, the Muslims do not believe Jesus was crucified.
If he was the Messiah promised to the Jewish people, he could not possibly be crucified, because the Jews were not awaiting a crucified Messiah, they will not awaiting a crucified Messiah, they were waiting for a Messiah who would come and liberate them, and he would be a savior from them. As Bernie rightly pointed out, he could not have been possibly crucified. And Bible also points to that, which is very often ignored by Christian scholars and theologians for some reason. There is a very powerful reference to the fact that Jesus could not have been crucified he could not have been harmed God promised him that he will save him. His name is Jesus, which is in the Hebrew language,
Yeshua. Yeshua means he got saved. Yeshua means God saved or he would be saved by God. How was he saved by God if he was crucified on the cross, as brutally as the Bible wants us to think or the four gospels want us to think? So Quran categorically denies that he was put on the cross rather, it appeared to them so they thought he was crucified, someone spread the story, and it became famous, but he was not crucified, as we will see in due course very quickly. The Muslims also believe in his return he will return and he will fight antichrist. Prophet Muhammad
is reported to have said in an authentic report found in Al Bukhari, he stated there is no profit between him the Prophet Jesus and me, he will certainly descend. recognize him when he used when you see him he is of medium height of a reddish white color, he will wear two sets of yellow dyed clothing, water will fall from his hair, even if it does not rain, he will fight with people for Islam, he will slay the Antichrist and then remain for exactly 40 years on Earth, then he will die and Muslims will perform the prayers for him. And in fact, there is a place dedicated for his burial. In the chamber where Prophet Mohammed is buried. There is an empty spot for Jesus Christ
because of this prophecy of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. So what was the primary message of Jesus Christ? These are the messages here, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God. This is clearly stated in the Quran, chapter five, verse 72. This is what Jesus came to preach. Jesus also preached that anyone who believes that I am God or son of Mary is God, then he will be a blast dreamer. Okay? And Jesus clearly stated that
worship one God alone, who is my God, your God, as the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, clearly confirms, Jesus was asked as to what is the most important commandment and he said to the Jewish person, here, O Israel, the Lord our God is one God and us conception of divinity was one person. The Jews worshiped a unique personal God, and that was the father. The Jews never worshiped a trinity never, never. They had no conception of a treaty when Bernie claims that the Trinity is taught throughout the Bible. That's a very brave and bold claim made by Bernie powers. And that sounded like a joke to me when he was talking about jokes earlier, and in during the q&a, we can
talk about it or in the rebuttals, we can come back to some of these issues very quickly. So Jesus was not Trinitarian rather to the contrary, he was a strict monotheistic thought, the Jewish concept of God in the Gospel of john chapter four.
Verse 21, we are told that he is having a dialogue with the Samaritan woman and he tells her you don't know what you worship, we know what we worship,
for salvation is with the Jews. Salvation is with the Jews. I'm quoting the words, how can salvation be with the Jews when they worship a universal God and they don't worship the Trinity. Jesus should be saying these Jews have been worshipping one person.
And that person, of course, doesn't constitute Trinity. Right? Now, I tell you the new covenant, I am also a person who is part of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is also God with capital G to worship as three. He didn't say anything like that Jesus never claimed to be God, or never claimed to be part of a trinity never.
So these are some of the passages are referred to earlier the Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 28, to 29. So what were they talking about when I said he could not have been crucified last few seconds?
The Gospel of Matthew chapter four refers to a prophecy about Jesus Christ.
The devil tempts Jesus Christ, for with jumping off the cliff to God, because God has promised to protect you. What was the devil referring to and Jesus does not negate or controvert, that particular statement of the devil, he doesn't say that that's not about me. That doesn't refer to me. In fact, Jesus confirms it from the wording of this passage. And when we go to that passage, where the devil is actually, the passage, the devil is actually using it Psalm 91, Psalm 91. When you read it carefully, it tells us what the devil is talking about. And it tells us surely he will save you, he will cover you, you will not fear. I'm only reading the ballparks sorry. Let me bring
it on the screen there. Yes.
You will only you will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked, then no harm will befall you, for he will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways. They will lift you up in the hands so that you will not strike your foot against the stone. Okay, I will rescue him. God says I will protect him. He will call upon me and I will answer him, I will deliver him and honor him with long life while I satisfy him and show him my salvation. This is exactly what Islam preaches. This is exactly what the Quran states in chapter four, verse 137, he was not crucified, he was not killed. Rather, it appeared to them. So. So this prophecy refers to
Jesus Christ, clearly according to the book of Matthew. And if it does, he could not have possibly been sacrificed to crucified, brutalized as he, as he was seen by the Christians later on. Thank you so much for listening.
So I've not gave a very clear Islamic presentation about Jesus. And there are a whole lot of things in there that need to be responded to, I won't be able to cover all of them, but I'll pick some of the ones that I think are more important. He said at the beginning that he felt that the Quran or the Islamic view,
set with the historic view than the Christian than the Christian view is, and then he went to talk about why they believe that the crucifixion never happened. But actually, that's not based on historical evidence. If we have a look at the the information about the crucifixion, and whether it happened was really a historical fact. Did Jesus really die on the cross? We go outside the Bible, the Bible was written by people who obviously had a vested interest in it. But what did Jewish people say? In the Babylonian Talmud, it says Yeshua was
like this quote unquote, yeah.
On the day of the Passover, and this was hanged was a kind of a synonym for being crucified. That was what they do hung on a tree, because sorcery. He was hanged on the eve of the Passover. trifold. The Jew claim that Jesus was a Galilean deceiver, whom we crucified, and we know from the Bible that Jesus was from Galilee, and that he was accused of being a deceiver. tacitus, a Roman historian says, near fasten the guilt of starting the foreign Rome on the the Christians, and these they follow crystals, who suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of their procurators Pontius Pilate. These are secular historians, not Christians, writing about the
crucifixion. We find that some people have questioned whether Pontius Pilate actually existed and a stone was discovered in 1961. In Caesar reappearing his name, the middle of the letter of Maratha seferian, which is in the British Museum says, What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king john put on top that wasn't me blowing up. The the sun on top of the thing was Jesus of Nazareth King of the Jews, the Greek writer felt
He says there was a most fearful darkness and rocks were read by an earthquake. And there was an eclipse of the sun. And this is the one that's mentioned by the Roman Rite of Lagos in his Chronicles Eclipse in the time of Tiberius, in whose reign, Jesus appears to be crucified. And it says he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands his hands had been pierced by by nails. These were not Christians who were writing about this. These were secular historians. They said, some graffiti that is in Rome, still there, you can go and see it. Alex seminoff worships he's got an A crucified donkey on a cross that the Christians were
despised, that was seen as the religion of slaves, and they used to make jokes about them. They weren't TC in those days, and they put it up there. And he was this was in the first or third century Lucien of Sarasota aroma. Romano Syrian writer said, you know, the Christians worship a man to this day, that crucified sage, and they live after his laws. Flavius Josephine Joseph is a contemporary of Jesus or later contemporary of Jesus.
Writing there now this one in these antiquities, this one is actually being challenged by some people because it's seen as too pro Christian, that says he was the Christ. And so people say Josephus would never have said that Jesus was the Messiah. But it does have details about him being condemned to be crucified. He appeared on the third day living alive as a divine prophets foretold. So historians challenged this text, but we've actually found an Arabic translation of it, which is from this as a 10th century one. And this one gets us maybe closer to the original text, it says, In this there's a wise man called Jesus, his conduct was good, he was known to be virtuous. Pilate
condemned him to be crucified and die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he repeated them three days later, and he was alive accordingly, perhaps he was the Messiah. So Josephus, in this earlier doctrine, is document is talking about Jesus, his crucifixion, as a historical facts, I've given you about a dozen there. So to say that the Islamic view is closer to the historical view is is just not correct. That baptism and is a bit of a bit noir for Christians. He says, one of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on the orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate. So you've got a whole lot of
evidence outside of the Bible, let alone the stuff that we find within the Bible itself. And now I mentioned that Jesus was like Adam, because they were both born without a father. Well, that's one very simple thing. Of course, Adam had to be born without a father because he was the first person there were no fathers for him to be born from. Jesus could have every other person from Adam was born
of a father. But we see a whole lot of other differences between the two. entry into the world. Adam was created, Jesus was had existed from eternity and he was born, and it was made from the soil Jesus from Mary's womb.
Marriage, Jesus had a mother may, Adam didn't because there were no women around to be his mother. Adam entered life as an adult because he's told to be fruitful and multiply. You don't say that to a baby. Jesus was born as a baby. They had different responses to authority. Geez, Adam was given authority for the earth. Jesus said, all authority in heaven on earth has been given to me. Jesus had a much broader
purvey of authority. Adam, disobeyed when he was tempted, Jesus stood firm, Adam failed the first time Jesus was obedient right up to death.
In the use of freedom. At the tree, Adam chose death instead of life. Jesus died so that he could give us life on the tree at the cross.
Adam use his ability and his freedom to disobeyed Jesus used his freedom and he gave it up for others. When they got accused out and blamed Eve, Jesus protected his disciples in the garden. The consequences were Adam death, Oh, Jesus life football. And the reason for Adams death was his sin, Jesus death was for our sin. So there's 18 differences between them that are significant. It's not just neither of them had a father. That's that doesn't really cut it for me. He says that the Trinity was not established until 800. And sorry, 381. Well, actually, that's not true because we have many church fathers, early church fathers who talk about the Trinity. The day a late first
century early second century says, We baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
In Clement of Rome, who was seen as one of the early church leaders, he says, as God the Lord Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit, who
are in the faith in the hope or live so surely he who believes so Trinitarian formula, Justin Martyr, 150 years 150 ad, a century after Jesus says, We baptized in the name of God the Father and our Savior, Jesus Christ in the Holy Spirit. He is the true God. we revere and worship Him and the sun and the prophetic spirit. We believe that he is the Son of the living God. And the prophetic spirit is the third person talking about a Trinitarian formula. This is well established in the early church writings Polycarp of Smyrna, who was on his way, being taken to be burned alive said to God, I praise you, I glorify you, through the eternal and heavenly High Priest, your beloved Son,
and with him and the Holy Spirit, both now and for the ages to come. A Trinitarian prayer theopolis was the first man to use the truck that were Trinity 188 he says there are three types of Trinity. The types of Trinity include God, His Word and His wisdom. Or Rene is the bishop as Leon said, we've received baptism in the name of the Father and this Jesus Christ, the Son, who was incarnate and died and was raised in the Holy Spirit. God is powerful in all things prophetically through His Spirit adoptively through His Son, that the Spirit prepares men in the Son of God, the son leads us to the Father Trinitarian right from the beginning to end.
So we find lots of references in the church fathers talking about the Trinity to say that it wasn't invented until 380 AD AD is just not accurate.
Let's have a look at the next thing, which was the Jesus in the Quran has a couple of minutes left. Let me just finish with Adnan talked a little bit about Jesus in the Quran. But I want to finish up with a perspective that you may not have heard a couple of years ago in the Arab peninsula and I met a man walking on the street. He was an Arab man in a soap, so not your Shalwar Kameez, isn't it? Yeah. But he was in a soap, spoken Arabic. And he said to me, are you a Christian? And I said, Yes, I am. And he said, I'm a Christian. And I said, Well, that's very unusual, because in this country, it was supposed to be 100% Muslim, there were no known Christians. And I said, How did that happen?
And he said, I was sitting in the Quran, a devout Muslim, I was reading, as I was sitting in the mosque, reading the Quran. And he said, as I read it, I decided that these were he was his words, Jesus was a much more powerful man and a nicer man than Mohammed. So I decided that I would follow Jesus. That was his term.
I thought, That's very interesting. I wonder how he came to that conclusion. So I went to the Quran, myself, and I talked with him about this. If you go to the Quran, you actually find it's mostly about Allah. It's about God. And you see that God does many things he creates, he's the Creator. He's the healer. He's the one who raises the dead, he fed the hungry, he could change the law because he wrote the law. He knows the hidden things. Nothing's hidden from his side. He knows the last day he understands history. He's holy and sinless, and he's in heaven. But if you look at the Quran, you see Jesus is and does every single one of these things. Jesus is the one who took clay
and breathed into it, it became a living being that were created his only use of two beings. culatta is a verb in Arabic is only used of two beings in the Quran, Allah and Jesus. Jesus is the one who heals it talks about the one who healed the lepers who gave sight to the blind. Jesus raises the dead, he can give life to things. Jesus could change the law because he had the power over the law. He knew the hidden things according to the crowd. And these were the passages that Adnan was mentioning before go home and read them, I encourage you to go home and read them. They're all there. Jesus knows the last hour because he's returning the Quran says Lao elymus Aha.
Jesus is holy and sinless. The only one in the Quran who's mentioned that Jesus is inhibit, none of these 10 characteristics occur with any other person in the Koran. Or there's another one he's exalted in heaven and earth with jihan fiducia. Well, after exalted in this life and in the life to come. And Muslims say, Well, of course, Jesus, he was, as far as man said, he was a great, it was a great prophet, the greatest prophet. In fact, that's why he could do that. If you look at Muhammad, Muhammad did not score on a single one of these. Mohammed could not do any miracles that people came to him and said, Don't give us a sign everyone else gave signs give us a sign. He said, I can't. The
signs are only with Allah. And with Jesus.
He, they said, We don't like the law of change the law give us something different. He said, I can't change the thought comes from Allah, that Jesus could he they said, show us where there's some gold hidden. He said, I don't know what's hidden that Jesus did. When's the last year they said, Will it be sooner will be a long way? He said, I don't know. Only God knows that Jesus knew.
He was conscious of his sin. He could and I'll talk about that more on Sunday when we do the debate on Muhammad.
Jesus Muhammad is not now in heaven. He's dead in his grave in in Medina waiting for the day of resurrection. So we can see that the picture that Jesus has presented of Jesus in the Quran is much closer to the picture of Allah that we find in the Quran. And I think that's something that's important for us all to understand. Thank you.
Thank you, Bernie for that very powerful presentation. And I will pick on some of the points you have raised, although you've raised a lot of them.
You mentioned telcos and Josephus and tacitus. And you went through a huge exercise trying to claim that historically historians have spoken about Jesus Christ. When did I controvert that? The Quran actually acknowledges that when I talked about the Quran, the Quran clearly states while I can to be alone, it appeared to them so they started to believe this, this idea was spread, people started to write about it. The Quran clearly acknowledges that. So we do not deny that historians have written about it. There are passages about it, people refer to the crucifixion. But the fact that the Bible states clearly, Psalm 91, the prophecy about
Jesus Christ being saved by God, as you can see on the screen again, if this prophecy is about Jesus Christ, then he could not have been crucified.
The book of Matthew chapter four, verses five to 10, the dialogue between the devil as well as Jesus, right, both of them, they are talking to each other. The devil uses a prophecy to tempt him to jump off the cliff, why? The words are he will order His angels to protect you, and they will hold you up with their hands so you won't even hurt your foot on a stone. The devil quotes from the Bible, Jesus responded, the scripture also say, you must not test the Lord your God. So Jesus acknowledges that the prophecy refers to me. However, Lord also says that you must not tempt God. Jesus does not does not controvert that prophecy that doesn't refer to me. The Christian scholars
have all acknowledged that this prophecy actually refers to Jesus Christ. What is the prophecy? This is where the confusion comes in. Again, to emphasize the point, surely he will be he will save you, he will cover you. I'm again reading the ballparks to save time, you will not fear
you will only observe with your eyes and see the punishment of the wicked, then no harm will befall you. For he will command his angels concerning you to guard you, in all your ways. They will lift you up in the hands so that you will not strike your foot against the stone the very words used by the devil according to the book of Matthew chapter four.
And then Lord said or says I will rescue him.
Who Jesus Christ because the prophecy refers to him, according to the book of Matthew chapter four. The prophecy refers to him. Lord says I will rescue him, I will protect him. He will call upon me and I will answer him. When did Jesus call upon
God in the garden who gets the money, Jesus goes forward, falls on his face, and praise like Muslims. Amazingly, he prays like Muslims, Jesus actually, according to the Bible praise like Muslims, he fell on his face and he prayed to God and he said, Father, if it'd be possible, let this cup pass from me. He called upon God and God tells us in Psalm 91, He will answer him, I will deliver him and honor him.
With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation, a very clear prophecy you can you cannot possibly misunderstand it. If it refers to Jesus Christ, he could not be crucified and this is exactly what the Quran says. And the Quran indirectly refers to the Talmud as well. bakalli him in Nakata lol mercy. As for the Jewish saying, as for when the Jews say that we killed him, the Messiah, son of Mary, the Messenger of God, bamaca tahuhu masala boo Wanaka Bella whom they killed him, not the crucified Him not rather rather it appeared to them. So this is exactly what the Quran is saying. So Quran acknowledges that the historians have read, have stated this. Christians believe
this Christians think that's what happened, but it didn't happen. The Quran is saying it didn't happen, because God promised he will protect him. It will save him. I want Bernie to come back when he does to address Psalm 91. How are you going to respond to this? How are you going to respond to this? Is God blind? Is God making false promises? He says I will save you I will protect you a stone will not pick your foot. In other words, even a scratch, even a scratch won't touch you. You won't be scratched.
Jesus was last, he was brutally nailed to the cross bled, he was treated in an absolutely barbaric way according to the biblical narrative, which is very inconsistent, I don't have time to go through that if you read the gospel of john, and the Synoptic Gospels, you will see the inconsistencies in the narrative.
The details are very, very different when it comes to the matter of crucifixion alone. If the same God is revealing these four gospels to these four respective authors, why is it revealing different information to them on the matter of crucifixion alone. And I hope I get the time in the q&a to go through some of the differences I'm talking about the same God could not be revealing the same information, or different information to to all these people to confuse the masses. So now, next point is the Trinity 381 z. And Bernie came back and he said, Well, the Trinity is stated by all the church fathers. So when you claim the Trinity came about in 381, see, you're not being honest about
that. I never said the Trinity came about I actually acknowledged that the Church Fathers spoke about the Trinity. And I stated clearly, perhaps Bernie didn't understand what I was saying. I said clearly, that church fathers were subordination is, they believed in a hierarchy. They believe that Jesus Christ the son was made from the essence of the Father, such as the Tertullian Tertullian, such as Tertullian Tertullian, will the church father, who mentioned the word Trinity for the first time, according to some people, Trinity has in the Latin language, and how he described this Trinity is a hierarchy. The father made the son from his essence, and the son made the spirit from his
essence, therefore there's a hierarchy. So the spirit is subordinate to the sun, the sun is subordinate to the Father, therefore, there's a hierarchy, they never believed co equality of the three persons, hence, the delay in defining the Trinity as the Christians believe in it today, it took 381 years for Christians to define the Trinity, as you believe in it today. That's my challenge. My challenge is Bernie, come back and give us one statement from the first three centuries, up to the 300 ce. Give me one statement from a church father who said that the Son and the Father and the Spirit are co equal, and co eternal, co eternal, you might find, you know, this
statement ego me or I am before Abraham was I am. It doesn't prove Jesus God. It simply proves that Jesus was there before Abraham was created. It doesn't make him God. Right. I know, you're saying that he used the word yawei. to refer to himself? No, he never. Because when we look at these passages, what comes up now Jesus categorically denying his divinity if he was divine, this is where we differ, we the Christians, and the Muslims differ on these matters, primarily the crucifixion and the divinity. Other than that, we can agree with each other. Jesus was a great prophet. He was a noble character. He was an amazing person. He was born of Virgin Mary Mary was a great woman.
There's an entire chapter in the name of Mary in the Quran, Chapter 19. And the way it paints Mary in the Quran,
you will not find a passage in the New Testament, glorifying Mary the way the Quran glorifies her. There is nothing about the mother of Mohammed in the Quran. And there is an entire chapter named after Mary in the Quran, and the way it glorifies Mary is absolutely mind blowing. I have five more minutes.
Did I have 13 minutes in total? Yeah. So it's okay. So I'll continue. So Mark, chapter 10, verses 17 to 18. What do we read? Jesus is categorically denying that he's got a man comes to him,
kneeled to him and asked him good Master, what shall I do, that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, why callest thou me good? Why do you call me good? There is none good, but one that is God. If Jesus is God, with capital G, this is where he is telling this person, I am not God. Is that what you understand? Oh, my understanding is a bit messed up, maybe perhaps, I don't have the brain cells to understand this information correctly, if I am mistaken in my understanding in reading this particular passage, and if you get another conclusion from it, please do come back during the q&a. Perhaps your questions have already come through. So if the question comes up, I
will respond to it. Here Jesus is clearly clearly categorically denying being God. If he was God, he would not say there is only one good that is God. I am not that good. I am not that God. In other words, okay. Then john 421. I've already mentioned this the dialogue between Jesus and Samaritan woman he
tells her you worship what you know not we worship what we know. We, he is a Jewish prophet who is saying, we, we worship Jesus worshiped the Father, Jesus, if he was God, then why is he worshipping a universal God? Did Jesus ever worship a trinity? That's another question. In the New Testament, did he ever worship a trinity? he worshipped a unique personal God, which is the father, he did not mention the third person or the second person, was he worshiping a trinity? Never, you do not find anything like that in the New Testament. So he confirms the Jewish conception of divinity of Godhead, which is what universal Jews never worship the Trinity. Right. And by the way, there are
Christian theologians who are confirming that the Trinity is absolutely absent in the Old Testament, who says so, William Lane Craig, a great theologian from the US a philosopher, he has clearly stated in his lectures that do not try to prove the Trinity. From the Old Testament, it doesn't exist there. There are others like Bruce Metzger, in his work, and Oxford Companion to the Bible, he states Clearly, the doctrine of the Trinity as the Christians believe in it today is nowhere to be found in the New Testament. It's not there. It had to be carved, it had to be defined, it had to be extended, extra biblical terms would, would have to be applied to come to this conclusion, which the
Christians have today. So john 1428,
Jesus said, You have heard how I said on to you, I go away, and I come again on to you if you lived, or sorry, you if you loved me,
you would rejoice because I said, I go on to the Father, for my father is greater than I, when Bernie quoted that verse in the Bible, that Jesus said, I am father and I are one, we have no problem with that. And then he said, his disciples are one with him. Okay, if that's the case of Jesus is God, then his disciples are one with him, they are also gods, right? They are also Gods by that virtue. So but his reasoning in that sense, doesn't work. Here Jesus is the father is greater than I, in other words, status, important significance, the father is greater than I, right. So it is very, very clear in these passages, that Jesus is categorically denying his divinity, not 1332.
States, But of that day, and that our north, no man, no not and not the angels, which are in heaven, neither the son, but the Father. So Jesus had no knowledge of the the hour. There are so many other passages I can quote in this regard to show that Jesus categorically denied In fact, in the Gospel of john chapter 17, verse three, Jesus categorically state that Father is the only true God This was the most difficult passage for trinitarians to deal with. For centuries, they struggled, in some cases, they even change the wording to prove the doctrine of the Trinity. Father is the only true God the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel of john chapter 17, verse three, Father is the only true
God models Latinos in the Greek language that means uniquely true, only him. So if that's the case, is is is God. Why did the Christians struggle to believe this for four centuries, the majority of the Christian world was Unitarian, my time is up. So ladies, gentlemen, thank you to conclude. We disagree on the crucifixion, and the divinity of Jesus Christ. This is where we disagree with each other. And I have shown you today as to why the Muslims have this belief in the absence of the crucifixion from the life of Jesus, and that he was not God. We have very strong reasons to believe these things, we cannot attribute things to him that cannot be substantiated in the light of both
scriptures, the Bible and the Quran. Thank you very much.
Thank you very much. And thank you very much for your participation. The questions are coming in fast and furious. Just to reiterate again, we will be obviously selective due to time and focusing on the topic today, who is Jesus? Keeping on to the topic that you ended with? A question has come in here, Quran for Surah 4171 actually proves the Trinity. How can he be the word, the Messiah and Jesus and not be God? According to the Quran?
Thank you for that question. The Quran Chapter Four, verse 17 171, proves the Trinity. I am really intrigued. I don't I don't see the Trinity there. It clearly states or who you believe sorry, all the people of the book. Do not exceed limits in your faith. Do not go to extremes in attribute and things to God that are not true while our Taku Allah Allah, lol Huck, to quote the Arabic wording. Do not say about God accept the truth. Jesus is son of Mary is a messenger of God.
His Word and His Word. So believe in his messengers, believe in God and His messengers. So the point here is that if you believe in God in His messengers, you cannot possibly end up with the Trinity because what is God saying here? He is only a messenger. And he is a word, which he bestowed upon Mary, bestowed upon Mary in the sense that the Holy Spirit, Angel Gabriel, was sent to blow the spirit in to her womb for her to conceive Jesus Christ. This is what the Quran is saying. In fact, the Quran clearly states
in chapter four again, while otaku thalassa it actually states clearly categorically do not say three
do not say Trinity. It is surprising that you used this particular chapter and this verse because this was categorically states that do not say three bilotta colusa,
fondo, pero la come, abstain from it. It is better for you don't attribute things to God, that God never came up or he never said. And this is where the Muslims find it absolutely shocking, and fascinating that the Christians ended up with the doctrine of the Trinity. While Jesus never preached it, there is not a passage, I'm sure Bernie might come back and say, Matthew 2819, I am aware of all the passages Christian apologists bring up to substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity somehow. But then, if Jesus is commanding, go and baptize the nations in the name of the Son, the
the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Even this verse does not state that they are equal. It doesn't say they are equal. In fact, if anything, in this particular verse, you find a hierarchy, the father is number one, the son is number two. And the Spirit is number three. And for some reason, the disciples did not obey Jesus, because according to the book of Acts, we are told disciples of baptizing in the name of Jesus, not in the name of the Trinity, what happened to them.
So all these points are very, very interesting for you to consider. The doctrine of the Trinity was the doing of capitation fathers in the fourth century, basil, Azaria,
Gregory of nazianzus, and Gregory of Nyssa, these three Church Fathers actually came up with the final definition of the doctrine of the Trinity, which was formalized in the 381. See, if the doctrine of the Trinity I repeat again, please listen to me carefully, ladies and gentlemen. And this exercise is not to insult you to hurt your feelings or anything like that. This is my way of expressing my love for the Christian community. I love you, believe me, I love you. This is why I'm here in Australia, and I love Australia too. Okay.
So the reason why I'm saying these things so that you can go and do some research on these topics on these issues. So the church fathers, these three church fathers in the fourth century came up with this, they had to define the doctrine of the Trinity in the in the year 381. See as they did, because the definition didn't exist before. The idea was absent from the minds people could not dare put Jesus as an equal to God the Father, they did not do that in the first three centuries. If the dead, Burnie can come back and put me to shame. He has plenty of time to come back. Find me a quote from a church father from the first three centuries, where one of them said God, the Father, and God
the Son are co equal. Please do. Thank you.
Thank you question now for Bernie. It's two questions together, but they are similar. Can you explain or show where Jesus said He is God in the Bible? And why didn't he say I'm God worship me.
This is a very common one that was invented by Ahmed deedat, back in the 1980s.
And so I'll give you the answer to it now. So the short answer is Jesus never said that. But then people draw the false conclusion, he must not be God, and He should not be worshipped because he never said it. That's a false conclusion. And I'll tell you why. Because behind this question, there's an applied assumption that is, if someone did not make an assumption, or did not make a statement, therefore that statement must not be true. And that's a flaw in logic. You could reverse the question and say, Where did Jesus say, I am not God, don't worship May. It doesn't say that anywhere in the Bible doesn't say anywhere, anywhere in the Quran. Therefore, we conclude that Jesus
must be God and should be worshipped. It's the same faulty logic, you're trying to argue out of a position of silence. They're equally bad
arguments. But let's apply that same law to the Quran. Where did Allah say, I am the only God and I've written it there in our in Arabic. Allah, Allah, Hey, where did Where did Muhammad say? I am the messenger of God.
rasulillah Where did Jesus say I am the Messiah? And if you want to do the one on Mohammed Mohammed named Tony mentioned four times in the Koran. So it's got to be a real one of those four times where it says Carla, Muhammad, Allah Rasool Allah. So you can define the question any way you want, and say you can answer it that way, which is what had not been doing with the one about quality of the Trinity. And then of course, you have to come up with a negative answer. Where in these videos did Adnan Rashid say I am a human, I looked at the wall, you never said it. So therefore, I assume that he's not a human. It's faulty logic. You can't apply that kind of logic. It doesn't work. So why
didn't? Yeah, so a non statement doesn't mean a non truth. It can be true, even if it's not stated specifically.
So why didn't Jesus say that explicitly? Well, he said to the Jews came to him and said, if you are the Christ, tell us plainly, Jesus said, even if I told you, you would not believe Jesus was not stupid, he knew whether people were open to understand or not or not understand. He said, You have seen me and still you do not believe. He said, he told the story about Lazarus and the rich man. And he said, if they don't listen to Moses and the prophets, they won't be convinced, even if someone rises from the dead. And this is the issue with that we talk as Christians about the crucifixion and the resurrection. We think that we can put strong evidence behind that even that doesn't convince
Muslims to believe that Jesus has ever crucified. Jesus said, Don't give to dogs, what is sacred, sacred, don't throw your pearls to pigs, there needs to be whether people are willing to listen or not. And Jesus didn't find people who are willing to do that. So it's useless to speak the truth to someone who's unwilling to hear and only wants to destroy you, and destroy your teaching. So how do you find out the truth? Well, the Bible says, I will instruct you and teach you in the way you should go. Don't be like a horse or a mule, which has no understanding. Jesus said, Ask and seek and knock. And then you will find, he said, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your
soul with all your all your strength, and all your mind. Jesus actually adds these words from Deuteronomy. They're not in there, that Jesus expects you to use your brains. And I've given plenty of evidence about the divinity of Christ, the deity of Christ. We've seen right from the very beginning, right up until the very end, it's pretty obvious. And from his statements, and I could go through a whole lot more. In fact, I'll just give you, oops, a few more.
Here, these are some of the things that Jesus said or did that make us think that he is God? He claimed eternal pre existence. He said, Before Abraham was I am, he created the world is pretty good. He said, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away, who can say that except for God? He said, You cannot love father has a husband, wife, child self more than me. He said, the father and I are one of the same essence. He applied the Old Testament titles to himself. We saw the wonder about Yahoo. A, he calls himself the light of the world. He called himself the Lord of the Sabbath, the Sabbath was created by God. And Jesus said, No, I'm in charge of it. He
said, Truly I say to you, the prophet said, Thus says the Lord. He claimed authority to forgive sins. He said, I give eternal life. He claimed authority to judge the earth. He said, I'm coming back, and I would judge every person. He claimed to be perfectly sinless. He accepted human worship people bowed down and worshiped him, and he didn't rebuked them for it. He, Thomas said to him, My Lord and my God, he said, anyone has seen who has seen me has seen the Father.
He said, because you are a mere man claimed to be God was the thing. He called God, his own father, making himself equal with God. He said, all that belongs to the Father is mine. And he is now sitting on heaven throat, if Jesus is not God, what's he doing sitting in heaven on God's throne? I think that's quite a strong enough argument there. Thank you.
Thank you, Benny. And the next question is for Adnan.
It's again to fold if Jesus is only a messenger, then why does he create so many miracles? Well, whereas Allah does not. And if he wasn't crucified, how did he die? If you believe that he was the Messiah, which also means Savior, what is there to save if he didn't die for our sins? Thank you for that question.
Sorry, was the question.
If Jesus is only a messenger, okay, then why does he create so many miracles? Whereas Allah does not and if he wasn't crucified, how did he die and believe to your Messiah, so what is he saving us from? Thank you very much for that when it comes to miracles. We believe all prophets of God
emitted miracles. Moses did. David did. Abraham did. Jesus did so they are consistent in doing miracles, doing miracles does not make them God. Prophet Mohammed did miracles. Bernie is quite wrong, he's mistaken in this. We have many miracles reported from his direct companions, his disciples, and they have been transmitted to us via an uninterrupted chain of narrators. So when it comes to our information, it comes to us directly from heavily authentic sources, we cannot doubt them, there is no comparison between how the Christian literature was preserved and how the Muslim tradition has been preserved. So when we are told that Prophet Mohammed said, x, y, or Zed, we are
100% sure that these words are true, when they are attributed to him. And that's another science in itself. That's another discussion altogether. So he did miracles, for example, he was on a journey with his companions, and they ran out of water, he put his hand in a pot, water gushed out of his hand and over 1000 companions of his that took water from that little pot, he went to a feast, where they had a little pot of food, and the family invited him to have feast with them, only him he invited the entire army of his companions, and the family was shocked. Why did you do that when we invited only one person, the prophet said, trust in God, and every single person had food from that
pot. And we have other miracles, reported from the prophet of Islam, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. This is why we believe he was a true prophet of God, Christians very often, unfortunately, apologist in particular, they come, and they make these inaccurate statements about prophet of Islam, that he never committed any miracles. So miracles do not make people God. prophets do miracles, even nonprofits do miracles, we don't call them miracles, we have another word in the Arabic language, called keramat, which means supernatural
events, and even saints, if I meant to use one term, Christians may understand or may relate to saints who are not not prophets, they also are able to do something like miracle supernatural
events. So the second point was, how do you die if he was not crucified?
We don't believe he was
crucified and we believe he never died, he was lifted up. The Quran clearly states in chapter four, verses 150 758 and 159. That he was not crucified as the Jewish people claimed in the books that we killed him. Because in the Talmud, there's a charge that we kill them, we hand them he was a false prophet. He was. So the Quran actually defends his prophecy. The Quran defends him his honor, that when the Jewish people claimed that he killed him, on this tree, they hanged him. No, that did not happen. Rather, he was protected as the promise was made. He was lifted up, like Psalm 91 tells us that the angels will lift him, angels will lift him the Quran categorically states that angels he
was lifted up to the heavens, we believe he is alive, okay. And he will return before the end of times, to put the record straight, he will come back and he will tell the Christians that they have been worshipping Him in vain. Even the book of Matthew alludes to that, that on that day, people will come to me and they will say, Lord, Lord, in your name, we did miracles or we costed out devils, he said, He will say to them, get away from me, I don't know you, you do as of iniquity. This is what Jesus will say to some of his followers, they will come to him and they will say to him, Lord, Lord, we did wonders in your name, and he will tell them get away from me. So this is how
we understand the life of Jesus Christ. And it's very consistent historically, when I say historic Jesus, what do the historians tell us, john? Sorry, James dg Dunn is an authority on patristic history. I'm pretty sure Bernie is aware of this name, James dg done, he states that all we know about Jesus Christ is with certainty that he was a Jewish messianic figure who walked
in Judea in the first century. And he came to preach to the Jews, a very radical message. That's all we know about him. Historically, this is what the Quran tells us that he was opposed by his people, but God protected him. And when it comes to other things that Bernie mentioned
during his presentation or his answer, he talked about if I'm not one, someone doesn't claim something, or doesn't make a statement statement about it, then that's not necessarily an indication for the statement to be false, right? But Bernie never said he's not a kangaroo.
He never said that. He is not a jet. He never said he's not a car. Can we assume all those things about Bernie that is a kangaroo. It can be could be a jet. It could be a car.
He could be Superman, it could be Spider Man, it could be all these things. No, he never made these statements.
For us to believe that Bernie is Spider Man, Bernie will have to come back. And firstly he will have to put the put the suit on. Right? And he will, he will have to demonstrate that he is the spider man right, he will have to climb the building or something, if he claims that right? Why would we otherwise believe that is Spider Man. Likewise, Jesus will have to make a clear statement and show us why it's God Almighty with capital G. If he doesn't do that, we don't have to believe that. In fact, we have statements where he contradicted that notion directly. Why do you call me good when only God is good? Why is he playing these games? If Jesus is God? Why is he playing games with the
minds of his people? Why is he calling father the only true God? Why is he doing that? The father is the only true God Why is he saying that? That means he negates his own divinity. All these statements are very important for us to ponder upon, right? If he's God, we cannot possibly find a statement in the New Testament that controverts his divinity. But there are plenty of a plethora of statements and verses in the New Testament that directly contradict the notion of his divinity. Thank you so much for listening.
Just one last question.
And this is for Bernie.
There is a question here that the person wants clarification on New Testament and Old Testament and they think that New Testament is replacing the old testament because of
that the New Testament got it wrong. But as part of that question as well is that if Jesus is the Son of God, then who is God?
So clarification on new and old testament and Jesus as the Son of God. And who is God?
All right, thanks. Yeah, good question. So for for Christians, we have two testaments. So we received the Old Testament, it came through the Jewish people. And all of the stuff on this side, I think, is related to that. The we're very much grounded in the Old Testament, the Old Testament was preparation for the coming. It talked about the covenant that God gave to Moses for the Jewish people. But it also talked about a new covenant that would come and that's found in Jeremiah 31. And Jesus talks about that, too. When he edits last supper, he says, This is my cup of the New Covenant. So it's pretty clear that this is the time when God is going to bring in a new way of dealing with
humanity, whereas the Old Testament was specifically written for the Jew. So it has a lot of laws in there that were specific to the Jews, for example, not eating pork, or camel or rabbit or a whole lot of other things that were forbidden for the Jews, and ways of doing things that were part of their identity as a nation. But when it comes to the New Testament, Jesus then breaks those open, and he presents the food and he says, It's not what goes into your mouth, it makes you unclean. It's what comes out of your mouth. And so the whole thing he declares all foods clean, the gospel then becomes something that is for the whole world. Whereas in the Old Testament, people were supposed to
come to Jerusalem in order to worship God, Jesus says, and the one that had not quoted before I was speaking to the woman on Well, he said, to the woman at the Wellington area, he says, neither in this on this mountain or in Jerusalem, Will people worship the God, for God must be worshipped in spirit and in truth. So that's an important thing of recognizing that I should just baby while that's the advanced brought up some 91 a couple of times. That is not a messianic Psalm. It doesn't talk about Jesus. The quote that he says is from Matthew four, that was actually the devil who was quoting that. So the devil use that as a messianic Psalm. Jesus refused to accept it. And the second
part of it was about my question.
If Jesus is the Son of God, who is God, okay, good. Yeah. So our very first one there. So God is Trinity, God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So Jesus has, every person has two things you have an essence, which is your, your human essence, your nature, all of us share our human nature together. But you also have a personal identity in that you are you. And the same within the Trinity. There is a divine essence, which is shared by Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But each within the Trinity has their own personal identity. So the father is not the son, the son is not the Spirit. Jesus came and died on the cross. For us, the Holy Spirit comes and leaves within this a separation, a
differentiation of the roles within the Trinity. So it's a different way of understanding the Islamic view is just this monistic kind of understanding
Allah. Thank you
very much. Now both speakers will have the opportunity to have their two minute summary. So two minutes to sum up, and we will follow the same order. So Bernie first followed by Adnan and we will also sound the bell at the one minute mark. Thank you.
So our question tonight has been who is Jesus, Jesus is exactly who he said he is. He did what he said he was going to do. And he will do what He has promised. He is the eternal Son of God, he existed with the Father and the Holy Spirit before the world began. He is the creator of the universe. He's the Savior who was foretold in nearly 400 prophecies found in the Old Testament, he's the Lamb of God, who can save us. Jesus is the Son of God who took on a human body so that he could come here and live amongst us. He told the people that he was the Good Shepherd, who would lay down his life for his sheep. And that's exactly what he did. On the cross in a great act of sacrifice and
compassion. He gave himself for your sins and for my sins. He's now seated in glory and honor interceding for those who love Him. But one day he will return to the earth as a judge of the whole earth. But he invites you now into a personal relationship with him, he says, Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. So you can enjoy the benefits of living in God's love now, and that will extend into eternity. But you must put your trust in Jesus. The Quran, as I mentioned before, speaks of Jesus as the creator, the healer, the one who said the hungry, who raised the dead, the law giver who knows the hidden things in the future, the Holy One who is highly
exalted in this world, and in the next. And the Bible says in Philippians, two, at the name of Jesus, every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. So every one of us here will one day bow down to Jesus. But the question to ask is, will you bow down in fear of Jesus who is judging your sin? Or will you bow down in gratitude for Jesus who is your Savior? That's the choice that you have to make.
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much for attending today's debate, I
I would like to congratulate you that we have tonight demonstrated the ability to come together as brothers and sisters in humanity, to argue with each other, sometimes passionately, and disagree immensely. And despite all that, we can go home as brothers and sisters in humanity, having disagreed, and having loved each other, having shared our loved our love in our own ways. And we will show that to you after we hug each other.
So many things are said today in the debate. It's a it's a very interesting debate, a lot of things couldn't be expanded or couldn't be explained further. There is a lot of information out there. There are many books written by people. And you must go and look into the Islamic perspective. When it comes to Jesus Christ. There is one book in particular I would strongly recommend, and that book is, what did Jesus really say? It is a very lengthy, expensive treatment of the topic. And you will see the Muslim perspective stated clearly, Bernie made many points about God. In Islam, God does say that I am God. In the Quran, there's a verse, Allahu comilla. On white, it says, is one God. And
Prophet Muhammad said, I am Rasulullah in near Rasulullah. So there are many statements to that effect. But there is nothing from Jesus Christ where he said, I am God, who worship Me, I am God. All he had to do was barely put up a huge table. And all these references to his alleged divinity are influences they are versus evidence used to infer his divinity that none of them is a clever way he's claiming to be God. So I leave it there. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for being an amazing God. audience. It was a pleasure debating with Bernie and I look forward to the second debate on Sunday. Rocky Road Atlanta and 100 reliable alameen Thank you
So Mr. Rashid has said it all
But it remains for me just to thank you again to echo Mr. Rashid's words that you have all been such a wonderful audience. Thank you for your patience. I'm sorry that we have gone over time but I'm sure you have enjoyed the time. Please join me in thanking both our speakers Dr. Bernie power and Mr. Adnan Rashid.