The Way Forward – Islam or Christianity – vs Clive Thorne
Channel: Adnan Rashid
File Size: 46.65MB
Islam, which is the way forward. I'll be chairing this evening. My name is Muhammad Assad. I'd like to do a little bit of brief housekeeping before we get on with the speaker introductions.
As we are in a in a public space in an auditorium, we've got fire exits which are marked on either end, inshallah God willing, we shouldn't have any need for them. And then we've got exits also at the rear, which are also the entrances.
Also, you will see hopefully, some feedback forms either have gone out or will be going out throughout the evening. Please do fill those in. If you need a pen or pencil, please indicate to one of our very helpful ISOC members who you'll see supporting very elegant green hooded tops, don't be scared.
And hopefully, inshallah God willing, we've had a slight delay with traffic of various bits and pieces, but we'll hope to wrap up shortly after 9pm.
So our first speaker this evening is Clive Thorne. He's originally from overseas from the Isle of Wight, not not that far overseas. He studied he read biology many years ago at
Oxford University. And I'm sure he won't mind me saying that he was born a Roman Catholic and while at Oxford in his second term of his first year, he had an experience which which brought him close to
Christianity in the form in which he practices it now. He's lived in India, in Gujarat and Bihar, between 1978 and 1980.
And a self professed learning and
He is a Christian minister, Minister of
lighthouse International Church, based in Southampton city centre.
If you're wondering why, brother Clive has a a posh chair,
it's it's not something to do with his ministry or his faith. But Clive suffers from a condition known as dystonia, which is related to Parkinson's. I'm sure, as many of you are medics, you'll probably tell me more than that I already know. So, without further ado, I'd like to introduce fly Thorne, who's our first speaker this evening.
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4000 years ago, the One God who's called in Hebrew yawei, or elohiym, or an Arabic, Allah chose a man, Abraham, Ibrahim, and said to him that if he left his own country and went to another land, he would through his descendants bless the whole of mankind. And when he was a really old man of about 100, and his wife was 90, God did a miracle that this man had a son, Isaac Isaak, and that man later had a Sancho Yaqoob, who had a song called usif. And they multiplied to become a people later called the Israelites, or the Jews. And about three and a half, 1000 years ago, God from that Jewish people raised up a prophet called Musa, or Moses, who led the people of Israel out of slavery in Egypt, to
their own Promised Land of Canaan, of Israel.
And in the following years, profits were sent to those people. And they started to become prophecies of one day, a king, who would rule the world would be raised up from that people. And here is one of those prophecies from 750 BC. It's from the Jewish part of the Bible. The Prophet called Micah chapter five verse two, he says, You Bethlehem if rather though you are small among the clans of Judah out of you will come for me. One would be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from a vote from
ancient times, predicting a king to come.
Here's another one from a prophet Isaiah writing about the same time 750 years BC, he says about the future to us a child is born to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace, of the increase of his government, and peace, there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne, and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness. From that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.
This prediction can be no ordinary man, he's talking about a coming king who will rule on David's throne,
one of the most famous kings of the Israelite people forever.
And his name, one of his names will be Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
But the prophecies in the Jewish part of the Bible also spoke of another thing.
Isaiah spoke not just of a king who would come but of someone who would suffer and die for the sins of the world. And in another part of Isaiah, it's written, surely he took up our infirmities carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God's smitten by him and afflicted, but he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed. For our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him. By His wounds, we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray. Each of us has turned to his own way, and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Most people when they read that, you ask them, does it come from the Old Testament or from the new they say that must be
from the New Testament that must be talking about Yeshua, Jesus, but actually that was written 750 years before he was born as a prophecy of the coming salvation.
He goes on to talk about him, being led like a lamb to the slaughter, being carried away by oppression and judgment, being silent before his accusers will relate to find in the New Testament that Jesus was silent when he was brought before the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate said nothing assigned a grave with the wicked and with the rich in his death, it was a rich man that gave the tomb in which Jesus was eventually buried.
1000 bC 1000 bc the Prophet Tao David writes, in one of his psalms about this same suffering, says, I'm poured out like water, all my bones are out of joint. This didn't happen to David. My heart has turned to wax, it's melted within me, my strength is dried up like a part two of my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth, you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me a band of evil men has encircled me, they've pierced my hands and my feet, I can count on my bones, people stare and load over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
There's prophecies. In the Old Testament, the Jewish part of the Bible, hundreds of them, referring to specific instances in the life of Yeshua, that he would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, the Not a single bone of his body would be broken. And they nailed him to the crops. But they didn't break his bones. When they came to check. He was dead, they put a spear into his side, that they would divide his clothes among them, the Roman soldiers cast loss at the foot of the cross. And this is written 1000 years before it would happen in the same Psalm. It says about this same event, the event of someone dying in agony, being laid in the dust of death. It says at the end of that same
psalm of David 1000 BC,
all the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord and all the families of the nations will bow down before him.
For Dominion belongs to the Lord and He rules over the nations. All the rich of the earth will feast and worship or go down to the dust will kneel before him. Those who cannot keep themselves alive, posterity will serve in future generations will be told about the Lord they will proclaim His righteousness to a people yet unborn. For he has done it the last words that Jesus cry from the cross in Greek is terrible. So that means I've done it. I've done it. That sound written 1000 years before says that person dying, they're in agony, all the ends of the earth will remember all mankind will turn to Him. And when Yeshua the Messiah, started to preach, and started 2000 years ago to heal
the sick to raise the dead to make the lame walk to
To make the blind see to make the deaf here to calm the seas to feed 1000s of people with a few loaves and fish. The people of Israel at that time flocked to him because he was fulfilling the prophecies that have come before in their books, hundreds of years before written about him.
But he started to say things that the Jewish leaders really could not understand. In this passage we read of a paralytic man being carried to Jesus, and the people put the mat down in front of Jesus. And it says, When Jesus saw their faith, he said, friends, Your sins are forgiven.
And the religious leaders thought, how can you do that? Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy who can't forgive sins, but God alone?
And Jesus, knowing what they were thinking said, Why are you thinking these things in your hearts, which is easy to say your sins are forgiven, or get up and walk to a paralyzed man.
Because if you say your sins are forgiven, no one could see whether that happens or not. But if you say to a paralyzed man, rise, and walk, everyone will see whether that happens or not. But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. He said to the paralyzed man, I tell you, get up, take your mat, and go home. Immediately he stood up in front of them, took what he had been lying on and went home, praising God. And the people were amazed what authority to say your sins are forgiven, and to back it up by healing, a paralyzed man, but only God can forgive sins. And the Jewish leaders became angry.
The Jews picked up stones to stone him this is another place that Jesus said to them, I've shown you many great miracles from the Father, for which of these do you stone me?
We're not stoning you for any of these, replied the Jews, but for blasphemy, because you a mere man, claimed to be God. They knew that that was the charge against Jesus, At his trial before the Sanhedrin that he had claimed to be God is a man, the high priest at the trial tore his robes, because it was blasphemy. It was shirk, that some man should claim that kind of authority, and that kind of status. That's why the Jewish leaders arrested him, had him tried. And the high priest tore his robes at the trial, because this man was claiming to be God. But he claims something else, that he came on his mission,
not to be served as a king, the kind of King that God had sent was not one that was going to fight the Romans as the Jewish people thought and deliver them from the Roman Empire and make a Jewish Empire instead. But he came to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
And the people that flocked after him, and wanted to proclaim him king because of his miracles.
A few days later, in Jerusalem, on the on the eve of the Passover, were crying out at his Roman trial, Crucify Him, because they expected God's Messiah, the king, to be one who would restore the kingdom to Israel King like David, David rule, the Jewish Empire,
a king on David's throne, they were expecting him to come and fight.
But Jesus said, Love your enemies. do good to those who hate you. Bless those who persecute you. And the crowds couldn't accept it. This kind of love, this kind of King is not the king they were looking for. They want to want to fight and get rid of the Romans out of their country. So they said When Pilate gave them the choice between him and Brabus, Crucify him, he's a false prophet. That's what the Jewish people said, because they rejected his kind of Kingdom. And he was now to across.
And three days later, he rose from the dead, appearing to His disciples, to over 500 people at one time, over a period of 40 days. One of the disciples wasn't there the first time, Thomas, he said, Unless I see the nail prints in his wrists, and I could put my hand where the spear went and decide I won't believe it.
And then they were in a locked room and Jesus appears.
It says, okay, Thomas, come Put your finger where the now's Where?
falls to his knees and says, My Lord, and my God,
does Jesus say, No, you shouldn't say that to me, because I'm only a man.
He's risen from the dead. He said, because you've seen me You've believed the blessing of those who have not seen and you
have believed. And he said he would send His Spirit once he ascended into heaven, His Spirit would come upon those same apostles, disciples, to inspire his remain, remind them of his teaching to inspire his message, the NGO, the gospel, which means good news, that there is forgiveness of sins, and that there is a new way to be right with God. And he says, heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away, will never change is what he said to his disciples and his message. What was his message? Well, is the NGO. What's it telling us? It tells us that no one is good enough to get to God by dying to be good. No one is going to be good enough by keeping the law, the law of
Moses or the Sharia, or any other law, because the truth is, and we all know it in our hearts, you look inside your own heart, there is no one who's really righteous, not even one, no one who understands no one who seeks God, all have turned away, together have become worthless. There's no one who does good not even one
is the message that Jesus came to bring. And he said, if you think, because you haven't killed anyone, that Okay, that's all right.
He says, You've heard that it was said to the people long ago do not murder. And anyone who murders will be subject to judgment. But I tell you, anyone who's angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. So he says not. That is also sin.
Not just about killing anyone but being angry in your heart to hate someone in your heart is also sin. If you think Well, I've never slept around. He said, You've heard that it was said do not commit adultery. But I tell you, anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Last is also a sin is also wrong, and will also send us to the fire of how
you've heard that it was said love your neighbor, hate your enemy. But I tell you love your enemies. pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his son to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Think brothers and sisters, when you come to the last day, the day of judgment and stand before God, do you really think that you're going to be good enough to enter paradise on the merit of your own good works of what you have done?
golf makes his appeal to every man's conscience in the sight of God. We need forgiveness. We need the way forward the way to paradise.
We can't do it. We need God's forgiveness. The Law of Moses said you had to kill a lamb. To find God's forgiveness. You had to sacrifice the Qurbani you had to kill a lamb or goat or a bullet whatever it was to find that forgiveness. But the blood of bulls and goats was just a symbol, the real sacrifice, the law requires everything to be cleansed. But without the shedding of blood, there was no forgiveness. But the real sacrifice was Jesus Christ God who became man and gave his life for each and every one of us. The Bible says unless we find that forgiveness, unless we're born again, let's we receive the Spirit of God and have a new heart. We can never find that road to paradise.
The Bible says human nature is basically evil. Think about it. If you've all seen little children, whoever teaches little children how to be selfish how to lie. How to get grab something off the other one no one teaches them that you only teach them how to share automatically. They lie is a mess on the floor. Little three year old Did you do it? No.
You show favor to one they'll get angry with the one. The one that's having the the attention of the one of his will get angry and start to hit them. Automatic pride, automatic selfishness. They're in the human heart and when we grew up, we learn how to control it.
But that's in there in our thoughts in our motives.
The Bible says we need a new birth. I tell you the truth. Jesus said no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he's born of water and the Spirit flesh gives birth to flesh. The Spirit gives birth to spirit and the good news is that God will give us a new heart. If we trust him if we give our life in faith to his Messiah, to the king to the Savior. We receive
forgiveness of sins in his name, and eternal life, a new heart.
If you said to a lion, that it's wrong to eat meat, and the lion thought, okay, it's wrong to eat meat, it would try eating the grass and carrots, but it wouldn't really be happy. Because in its nature, it wants to eat me and I see a little longer bench going. That's the same as telling human beings. It's wrong to lie. It's wrong to be selfish. It's wrong to be proud. It's wrong to be lustful, we agree with it. But in our heart, it's still there.
It's still there. If you could kill the lion, and make it reborn as a sheep,
then it will happily eat the grass. That's the good news. God can give you a new heart. You can give you forgiveness of sins, and a new life as a gift through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. That happened to me, as Muhammad said, when I was 18.
And I was at university at the time. And I heard this message, the good news that you can have a relationship with God, you can be forgiven, you can have a new life. And I wanted that I went home and I just prayed in my bad Lord Jesus, forgive me and come and take over my life. It I'll never forget it. The whole room was full of someone I couldn't see coming towards me in the bed. And it was as if I was sick. This was like a nurse coming to make me Well, the very next day, I didn't read it in the scriptures. So many things I've been doing that I hadn't even thought were wrong, I could no longer do. something had changed in here. My parents, my friends, everyone said, What's happened
to you? You're different.
They can see it, something has happened. My parents thought it must be a phase. It's gone a bit funny. It's got to be some kind of phase that's gonna change. We're 30 odd years later hasn't changed. They're now Christians themselves.
Rather than sisters, you can find a relationship, a real relationship with the real God, by faith in Jesus Christ.
One of the apostles finished with this when preaching to Jews,
in what's now turkey 2000 years ago said therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus, the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified by the law of Moses by trying to be good enough. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you. Look, use golfer's wonder and perish for I'm going to do something in your days, you would never believe even if someone told you. It is hard to believe God has made the way, a way of faith, of trust.
But he wants he is reaching out to us with His love in Jesus Christ. He has given confirmation of this to the prophecies for hundreds of years through the Jewish part of the Bible. And give them proof by raising this man from the dead.
Now thanks very much to Brother Clive Thorne from the lighthouse International Church here in Southampton.
Before I come on to our next speaker, just a couple of other points to make the audience aware of God Willing this week we also have four more fine talks and discussions. We have one tomorrow lunchtime between two and four on money. And then we have three evening talks. One tomorrow evening, at 7pm by sister Miriam Francois Seraph, who just this weekend if you saw was on the big questions. Very good speaker very fine speaker will be talking on issues of the hijab. On Thursday evening we have brother Hamza Andreas psaltis on why Islam and final talk of this week will be on Friday evening. The purpose of life by brother uses chambers.
Our next speaker
is brother Adnan Rashid. He is studying history at the University of London. He specializes in Islamic civilization, numismatics, which hopefully he'll explain to me what that is a bit later, ancient manuscripts and antiques. He's a senior researcher for the Hudson Institute. He is a research based initiative. He is Khatib at a West London Mosque. He's a regular public speaker and has taken part in various debates including one on the Satanic Verses and
Whether the Bible predicts the coming of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. He's seen both on television representing the views of the Muslim community, and can also be found quite regularly at Hyde Park, speaker's corner. So, I'd like you to welcome our next speaker this evening brother Adnan Rashid.
Bismillah al Rahman al Rahim
al hamdu Lillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah
odo villa in Sameera Li Min ash shaytani r rajim Bismillah R Rahman r Rahim Rama or solokha Allah tala Allah mean respected brothers and sisters in Islam, the offense and potential enemies salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.
I greet you all with the standard Islamic greeting.
May peace of Allah and His blessing be upon you all.
The topic which I have been given today is an interesting one. Indeed, before I go into my topic, however, I would like to explain what numismatics is, very often people think
the word was cosmetics. I have nothing to do with that. So numismatics is a science in which you study the coins, and ancient coins and T coins. And then, if you're a coin collector, you are called anonymous mutation.
Now coming to the topic, why Islam, why not Christianity, Clive has presented a fascinating case for Christianity, which most of it I do not disagree with. Some of the teachings with which are to be found in the Bible, are amazing. Love your enemy.
Love those who persecute you do not hate them, be friendly, be kind. And this is the core of the Christian message as it stands today.
However, historical Christianity, which is another reality of the past, wasn't addressed today by Clive.
Christians have been around for almost 2000 years, and in different forms and shapes. Although the Christians are the people who call themselves Christians today, to this day, they haven't agreed upon one text. The Ethiopian Church has a different canon. The Protestants have a different canon, the Catholics have a different canon. And the Russian Orthodox church or the Greek Orthodox, they have a different way of looking at the scriptures.
Muslims don't have that problem. Fortunately, we have one canon one book, one text, which we all agree with. Now, because Clive use the Bible, the text of the Bible to substantiate his case about the validity of this, this religion, known as Christianity,
I would go straight to the text myself to address some of the issues which I have with the text of the Bible
As the religion of Christianity is based upon this text without the Bible without the New Testament, there is no Christianity. There is no resurrection. There is no crucifixion. There is no Trinity. And these are the core values or core teachings of this religion. Can I have my notes working Please, have disappeared?
Yes, no, I just want to look at them myself.
Now the Bible is a text. The biblical text. The New Testament text is where the Christians go to substantiate their assertions about Jesus Christ or they view of Jesus. We have another viewpoint about Jesus Christ, which comes from the Quran. Quran tells us straight out laqad cafaro levina carlu in Allahu Allah mercy of no Miriam bokhara mercy Oh, yeah Bani Israel Allah Buddha la hora be back home. In the home I usually will faqad haram Allahu Allah Jalla wa wa, wa, mala Gali, mein and SAR. Those are blast dreamers who say that Jesus is the son of Mary is God Almighty.
And the Messiah, the Son of Mary, he said to the people of Israel, all children of Israel, worship one Lord, your Lord and my Lord.
Anyone who is Christ partner that God will have his abode as fire and he will not be forgiven. Paradise is forbidden for such a person. Chapter Five of Quran of the Quran was 72 so this was the Quran has to say about Jesus Christ. In other words, in chapter four verse number 171 Quran tells us that oh you believe or, or Muhammad could
say to them, yeah 100 kita lotta roofie Dini come wallet aku Allah, Allah, Allah, Huck or Mohammed, tell the people of the Scriptures that do not transgress limits in your religions, and do not say about God, accept the truth. Jesus is the son of Mary was a messenger of God, and a word which which was bestowed on Mary. And then the worst goes on it continues. And it states that believe in a lion is messengers, believe in God and His messengers, and say, not three, do not say three, three, what three, means Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, which is what the Christians believe in, what does this doctrine constitute? Clive is a Trinitarian. Many Christians who are listening to me right
now, they believe in the doctrine of the Trinity, which claimed that there are three persons within one being of God, who are co equal and co eternal. Now, this is one of the biggest bones of contention with the Christians, and the Muslims have been talking about for centuries. This is one of the biggest problems for me to even think about the religion of Christianity. Why is that? Is the Quran right? When the Quran says do not say three? Or is the Bible right? When Bible allegedly teaches the doctrine of the Trinity? If it does, I believe it does not. But if it does, is the Bible, right? So the whole case, is based upon the text of the Bible.
And the Christians believe today that the text of the Bible is the infallible Word of God, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, these four writers, these four authors, including Paul, they were all inspired writers, inspired authors, who were inspired by God, God Almighty, right? what they wrote, this is how simple it is. So whatever we read in the Bible, in the text of the New Testament, comes from God.
But what is the reality? Where do we get the Bible from? The Bible, which is on the table in front of Clive, which is nav New International Version? Where does it come from? Who gave it to Clive? Did it come down as a book from God Almighty, or was it constructed? Bruce Metzger, one of the leading scholars, a theologian in the field of textual commentary on the text of the New Testament states, on the page 11 of his book,
a texture textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, he states of the approximately 5000 Greek manuscripts of all are part of the New Testament that are known today. No to agree exactly in all particulars, confronted by a mass of conflicting readings, editors must decide. Emphasis added, editors must decide which variants deserve to be included in the text, and which should be relegated to the process. Although at first, it may seem to be a hopeless task. And it's so many 1000s of varying readings to sort out those that should be regarded as original.
textual scholars have developed certain generally acknowledged criteria of evaluation. These considerations depend, it will be seen upon probabilities. And sometimes the textual critics must weigh one set of probabilities against another. In other words, Bruce Metzger is saying, one of the leading scholars in this field
that the text of the New Testament as it stands today, is built by the editors. They are the ones who choose what goes in the Bible and what does not. So the text of the Bible, as it stands today, comes from the editors, not from Matthew, Mark, Luke and john we do not have, we simply do not have what they wrote. The earliest manuscripts of the Bible are from the second century CE II.
The earliest manuscript is a small fragment fragment of the gospel of john, which is equal to a size of credit card maybe perhaps this size, or maybe maybe a bit bigger than that.
And a date from 150. See, now john was writing in the year 9200 110, in between these 20 years. So we do not have an early manuscript of the gospel of john. So we simply do not have a john road. If we do not have a john road. Where do we
You get what john wrote in this Bible, simply from the editors, the editors come along, they put 5700 manuscripts in front of them on the table, they examine every single of them, and not single words, not a single verse is holy uniform, who says, so the interpreters Dictionary of the Bible, a Christian. So we stress this, that it is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the manuscript tradition is only uniform.
So whether you substantiate the concept of resurrection, the concept of crucifixion, or the doctrine of the Trinity,
it's irrelevant for me as a Muslim, because what you have today, in front of you, it doesn't even come from those authors, let alone author's, let alone from God. God has nothing to do with the text of the Bible. Neither
do Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, they don't have anything to do with this text, which you read today, as their writings. They never wrote this. So once we have established that we can move on, we can move on. But even if we accept, for example, even if we accept the text, as as it stands today, comes from Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and john, does it substantiate the divinity of Christ? That is somehow prove that Jesus Christ was man and God at the same time? No, it does not. Because when we read the Gospels, they are very clear on this issue.
The Gospel of john chapter four, verse 21, we read that a Samaritan woman came to Jesus speaking to him about his religion, his views, his way of life. And Jesus tells her that we worship what we know, you worship what you know not. And salvation is from the Jews. It's very clearly stated there in the Bible. Even if we accept the text of the New Testament, come from
john himself, then even then it doesn't substantiate the divinity of Jesus Christ. So when he says, salvation is from the Jews, what does he mean by that? In the next part of the verse he states, because they worship the Father in spirit, Ma, who is the father, how many people do you have in the doctrine of the Trinity as divine persons, three, there is one being of God. And that being consists of three persons who are worshipped as co equal and co eternal
personalities. So Father is one, the son is another one, and the Holy Spirit is the third one.
Now Jesus is speaking to the Jews in the Gospel of john chapter eight, verse 54. And he says to them, that I do not glorify myself is my father who glorifies me, of whom you say is your God. So Jesus, when he spoke speaks to the Jews. He clearly acknowledges that Jews do not worship anyone else, but the Father. They do not worship three persons, they do not worship a trinity. They do not worship a Triune God, they worship one God, who is one person one being, and Jesus acknowledges that in the Gospel of john, chapter eight, verse 54. Now in the Gospel of Mark, chapter 12, verse 29, a Jewish rabbi comes to Jesus Christ, and tells him or asks him rather, what is the first commandment
Master, Rabbi, what is the first commandment? Jesus says to him, here, O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord.
Yeah, Bani Israel. Oh, Abdullah, Robbie, we're back home. In the home I usually will forget the Haram Allahu Allah. He'll Jana, Quran Chapter five, verse 72, word by word stated in the Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, and I believe these particular words definitely came from Jesus. We have a criteria to separate falsehood from the truth in the Gospel gospels, and that criteria is the Quran the yardstick is the Quran. Because we believe the Quran is the true Word of God. And we can substantiate that through many means. Many powerful means. So now this Rabbi comes to Jesus asks him, what's the first commandment? He tells him, that hero Israel, the Lord, our God is One Lord.
And then this is a Jewish rabbi. He's not a Trinitarian Christian, he's a Jew, who worship one person in one being and that's the father, which I have already substantiated from the Gospel of john, chapter eight, verse 54.
Then Jesus turns around and gives him an answer and then do returns another statement, and he states that Master, you have spoken the truth, there is no one else beside him. There is no one else beside him. So who is the Jew talking about now? Can anyone help me from the audience? When that Jewish man replies to Jesus, when he responds to him and says to him, there is no one else beside him. Which person is he talking about, according to the Bible, and what
is it? The father is speaking
About, according to the gospel of john, chapter eight, verse 54, the Jew is talking about the Father. And Jesus turns around and says to him, you are close to the kingdom of God, you are not far. In other words, you have spoken the truth. Now, if Jesus was a Trinitarian, this was the best time for him to teach the doctrine of the Trinity. Hold on a second, you have been worshipping one person one being in the past, from, you've been reading that in the new in the in the Old Testament, now God Almighty has changed his mind. I am also God, Holy Spirit is also a divine person within this Trinity. Now you have to worship as three, three distinct persons in one being. But Jesus did
not do that. He affirmed the statement of that Jew. Why did he receive him? Why did he lie to him? out of the villa, God forbid, we do not believe that Jesus lied, he spoke the truth. Therefore, I believe Jesus was not a Trinitarian. Even if we read the text of the Bible as it stands today. And in the Gospel of john chapter 17, verse three, Jesus when he's speaking to people, he says to them, that Father is the only true God.
In the Greek language you read Manasa ality knows. So Jesus separates himself from that divinity. And he believes that Father is the only true God, I want Clive to come back and address these issues. If Clive doesn't address these issues, then there is no point of having a debate. These are the premises I have. These are the problems I have with the text of the Bible. If the Bible is from Matthew, Mark, Luke, Luke and john. And if it is, then does it substantiate the doctrine of the Trinity? It does not. Clive will probably quote, The Gospel of Matthew chapter 28, verse 19, whereby we read that Jesus commanded His disciples to go into the nations that baptize them in the name of
the Father, the Son and the Spirit. And because there's a triadic formula, mentioned in the book, the book of Matthew, the Christians assert that here we have three persons mentioned together. And therefore we have a verse which substantiates the doctrine of the Trinity, but we say to them, we have these triadic formulas in the Quran. We don't worship at Trinity we read in the Quran, yeah, you're Lavina mano a to LA to Rasulullah Olam remain calm. Oh, you believe, obey Allah obey His messengers, and those who are in power triadic formula, Avi? trinitarians, we're not. In other place. Quran tells us in llama, lucuma la hora de La La La Nina Manu,
your protector and Allah is God, His Messenger, and those who believe another triadic formula? Do we believe that God? Do we believe Muhammad Sallallahu wasallam? Is he got? Do we believe that the believers are gods? No, they're not. They're not. So that doesn't prove anything. And even if we accept that, that does prove anything that was 2819 from the book of Matthew, Grant Stanton, a leading theologian in the field of biblical theology, who is one of the greatest scholars who ever lived. When it comes to the biblical theology, the subject of biblical theology states about this particular verse that it is a later development. Jesus never taught his followers to preach this.
Rather, people were being baptized in the name of Jesus, not in the name of God, or triadic. formula. Now coming to Islam very quickly.
Why do I believe that Islam is the truth, I can go on and on and on all night. And the evidence I have, will not finish. Very quickly, I'll take you to the Bible, the Bible itself in the Old Testament, which I believe is more authentic than the New Testament, because New Testament has some alien
ideas which are alien to the to the Old Testament, you do not find a Triune God. In the Old Testament, you do not find to save the questions for a q&a session. So what we read in the Old Testament, we read that there is a prophet prophesized in the book of Isaiah, chapter 42, the same book, which Clive was quoting, quoting from, who is this person mentioned in the book of Isaiah, chapter 42, who will come to the Gentiles, he will bring a new law, who will put the idol worshipers to shame. He will spread judgment on earth. He will put peace on earth. He will be from the children of Arabs. He will be from the descendants of qaisar. Don't believe me? read the text, your Bible
is in front of you. And during the q&a, I can address all your issues. What do the scholars have to say about this passage? The Book of Isaiah chapter.
I have what a thank you. Thank you.
The Book of Isaiah chapter 42 tells us that this is a messenger of
Prophet King kind of figure. Now, Clive in his presentation, he stated clearly that Jesus Himself said that his kingdom is not of this earth. If that's the case, this person who has been referred to in the book of Isaiah 42, is not Jesus, because this person has a earthly kingdom, who says though Christopher north, another theologian from the Oxford University, in his book on, on the the book of Isaiah chapter 42. The book is called suffering servant in deutero. Isaiah, he states that this person who has been referred to in this chapter 42, of the book of Isaiah, is a prophet King. He's a messianic figure. He is a prophet King, who will bring a new law and he will bring something like an
I didn't say this, Christopher North said this, on page number 139 of his book, suffering server in neutral Isaiah, published by the Oxford University Clarendon Press, on the page 139. He states that this person will bring something like an Arab Dean a comprehensive way of life. What is an Arab Dean? Can anyone help me from the audience?
there is only one Arab Dean, which is Islam. Quran tells us in the deen and the law, Islam, religion, the way of life in the sight of God is Islam. So, Christian scholar is writing a commentary on the book of Isaiah chapter 42. And he states that this person has been referred to who will come from Arabian peninsula because he's a son of Kadare in the West number 11. We are told that this person whoever this person is, has something to do with the Arabian Desert, he will bring something like in our been another passage in the book of Isaiah, referring to the same Prophet, prophet of God, Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam book of Isaiah chapter 29, verse 12, in the history of
Islam in the book of Bukhari, the most authentic book of the Quran itself. In the book of Revelation, we read that I share the wife of Prophet Muhammad state that this is how the revelation came down on Mohammed, my time has run out so I will quickly finish my point and
let CLI speak in his rebuttal.
I just states that this is not a revelation came to Prophet Mohammed. He was in the cave, an angel appeared to him said to him read Accra and he said mana Bihari, I am not learned, I do not know how to read. I do not know how to read. And the first five verses of the Quran Chapter 96 will reveal to him now when we go to the book of Isaiah, chapter 29. Words number 12. We read and I quote, when the book is given to the one who has not learned
and it is said to him read, I pray thee, he will say I am not learned. I am not learned while Khurana Anil hamdu Lillahi Rabbil aalameen. Thank you very much for listening.
Dr. Lockhart thank you to Brother, Don Rashid. For that Brian lightning talk. Just to give you an idea, you can probably see them and just give you an idea of what the plan is for this evening we'll have a brief session of rebuttals followed by a question and answer session from the audience.
We will have some concluding remarks which will then bring us to a close
I'd like to invite our first speaker Clive Thorne back up for some 10 minutes of rebuttals.
Well, I certainly impressed by Adnan I'm not a scholar of the ancient documents. But what I can say is that, although he mentioned the different canons of Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic that refers to the Old Testament, the New Testament is in agreement across the different denominations, and the Old Testament that's in the Bible on the table there. That is the same as the Jewish Old Testament and the documents of the Jewish Old Testament.
the Jewish books that came before Jesus, have been authenticated by the Dead Sea Scrolls found in 1947. And they date back to
Around the time of Jesus 2000 years ago, and the gap between them and the nearest manuscripts is about 1000 years. And they confirm what was written.
In the in the manuscripts later.
He's quite right that there's over 5000 manuscripts of the New Testament. And there's differences. And in the Bible there, it'll have footnotes where there's different sayings. Some manuscripts say this in a footnote
underneath. But to say that there's no sentence that is uniform is saying that there's no centers there, every 5000 of those manuscripts will have exactly the same thing. That doesn't mean that 4000 don't say one thing. I don't know the exact statistics. But that's what that would mean. There are many scholars, professors, I'm not one, but there are many who would stand by the integrity of the New Testament. So when the people who translated that from the original Greek are themselves, scholars of the Greek, you can find Bibles that are not translated by just people with a Christian faith, but people who have no faith, or Jewish translators, or whatever. So there are many scholars
that would stand by the integrity of the New Testament, in order to test it, maybe you have to become a scholar yourself, to find out one way or the other. But certainly, there are many famous scholars that would he's quoted, some that don't, but there are many that would stand by the integrity of the New Testament. So it becomes an argument between scholars. In that case.
As to the Trinity, the Bible is very clear that word Trinity never appears in the Bible. There's one God, but that one God came to earth, in Jesus Christ, and I quoted some
scriptures, where Jesus forgives sins, something only God can do. He said, to the Jews, if you destroy this temple, I will rebuild it. In three days, the temple was where God lived, he was referring to himself as his body as a temple of God. He allows people to worship him without denying it. So there is only one God.
Not three. We don't believe that. There's only one. If
people then say, Well, why is Jesus talking to the Father, but God, we all believe that God is everywhere. And he's here, he's in Pakistan. At the same time, he could speak to us in a voice as he spoke to Musa out of the bush, he could speak to us in a voice here. He could speak at the same time to people in Pakistan, because we all believe he answers prayer at the same time with people everywhere. If they were those two voices, you could link them up one God.
The two voices.
God is far more mysterious than we can just fit into our logic and into our reason.
In fact, the Bible says Jesus said, I thank you, Father, you've hidden the truth from the wise and the learned, but revealed it to little children.
The Bible says the world by its wisdom cannot know God.
But we preach Christ crucified, which is foolishness to the world. How can a man dying on a cross forgive the sins of the world? It might seem like foolishness, but the weaknesses of God is stronger than man's strength, and the foolishness of God is wiser. The man's wisdom, that actually what God appeals to, is our heart. That's what God is appealing to, in any of these things? Do you really have to be a scholar to work it all out? You'd have to look into everything to make sure that you were absolutely right. And only the intelligent would be good enough. Maybe some of you here are good enough. But what about the people in the fields out in India, or Pakistan that don't have all
this? intelligence of background, how they going to work it out?
God says he appeals to every man's conscience to our sense of right and wrong, which we all have.
Jesus said, How do you know that a message comes from God or not? You said, you know a tree by the fruit that it bears no good tree, bears bad fruit. No battery, bears good fruit.
And it's the love of God in Jesus Christ, that cause us to him and cause each and every one of you and me and the whole world to find forgiveness, and his love and goodness through Jesus.
Life. Thank you very much for his brief rebuttal. And I'd like to invite brother Amnon for his briefer bustle.
Thank you. Al hamdu Lillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah. But why does my rebuttal have to be brief?
It can be extensive.
Thank you, Clive again, obviously, he hasn't addressed my contentions. my contention was the doctrine of the Trinity is not to be found in the Bible, even if we accept it from God. He said that there are scholars who disagree with
Bruce Metzger, whom I quoted, no, that's not true. Bruce Metzger is one of the most leading scholars in this field, including Bart Ehrman, DC Parker, all these people are the people who are dealing with the text of the New Testament, in Greek manuscripts. And they are all unanimous on this point, that the Greek New Testament as it stands today is not constructed text is it's patchwork, to put it in simple terms, because 5700 Greek manuscripts, no two are similar in all particulars. What do you think that means? It is the editors who must decide what goes in the main text. It is based upon one set of probabilities against another set of probabilities. What do you think that means? If someone
said that to me about the Quran, and if I found it to be true, I wouldn't believe in such a book. I would not believe in such a book I would not blind follow the clergy and the priest who preach from the Gospels, in churches.
Coming back to some of the contentions. Clive raised Isaiah nine, six, he will be called God principes mighty God Everlasting Father, Jesus has never called Everlasting Father, in the entire New Testament. As it stands today, he was never called Everlasting Father, he was never called mighty God. In fact, if you read the Hebrew text,
you will find it to be stating something. Otherwise, Hebrew text doesn't say mighty God in capital M and capital G. Even if you go to the gospel of john chapter one was, number one, the Christian Bibles as as they stand today, and I we are, as we King James, they were all translated theologically. These are theologically driven texts. They do not represent what the Greek or the Hebrew states in its entirety.
So for example, sensitive passage such as gospel of john, chapter one, verse number one, it says, In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and word itself was God. So now word is Jesus Christ.
So if the word is God, and Jesus God himself, but when you when we read the the Greek text, we come to realize that when the worst days that in the beginning was the Word, and Word was with God, in Greek, we read, it states, on fields, with a definite article, the God with capital G, but when it comes to the worse, where it states, the Word was God, it states free us without any definite article, which would mean in Greek language, or God with small G, which is not a problem. Moses was a God in the Old Testament, Book of Exodus, chapter seven, verse one, and Israelites were all gods in the book of Psalms 82 was six.
So in that sense, if Jesus was a God, with small G, in the first century, Judaic sense, it wasn't a big problem. He was a man of God, he was a prophet, he was a messenger, so he can be regarded as a god in those days.
As a divine person, divine in the sense that he's a prophet is a man of God, like the Israelites were like Moses was. So that was doesn't prove nothing. But when you read that Bible, which is in front of Clive there, right now, it states God with capital G, which is misrepresentation of what the Greek has to say, the Greek text text has to say, Now Isaiah 52, suffering servant.
Again, I will ask you to go and read the academics.
And then Jesus was stoned because he was somehow claiming to be God, and Jews accused him of that, so he must have been God. But then look at the reply and look at the response Jesus gives in the same chapter. He says to the Jews, does not say in your scriptures that you are gods in the book of Psalms, Chapter 82, verse six. So if the scripture says that you are God, what is the problem with me
calling myself a God with small g doesn't prove anything.
Thomas saying, My God, My Lord again, coming back to the gospel of john, Chapter 20, verse 28. This is where we find this passage. Now, Thomas, many scholars, they believe the biblical scholars that this is a later assertion, or later insertion rather, why do I say this? Again, I would I like to, quote academic references so that you can go back and check rather than listening to my rhetoric and listening to Clive's rhetoric. I'm not here to have a rhetorical discussion. I'm here to have an academic discussion, which will lead us to some conclusions tonight inshallah, God willing. So Thomas said, My God, My Lord, who put these words in the mouth of Thomas, now, Paul, and an
Anderson, Paul and Anderson, he wrote a book on the gospel of john, historic Jesus and the gospel of john, in this book, he states that the gospel of john, as it stands today, has been touched by many hands. Even the text as it stands today is not from john alone. There are many hands, who had something to do with the text, many redactors and editors came afterwards, and they added text into the gospel of john, I'm not saying this, Paul, and Anderson said this.
Love your enemy, I don't have a problem with that. Love your enemy. If someone comes in punches me today, I can love him. No problem is my enemy. But Jesus never said love God's enemy. He never said this. He would never say this, that love God's enemies. He said, Love your enemy. So if you are parking your car in a public carpark, and someone comes along and takes your parking, and then he comes out and argues that you that's your enemy at the time. So forgive him walk away. This little Prophet Mohammed told us that the one who is wrong.
And if he's arguing with the one who is right, and the one who's right, if he abandoned the argument walks away, God will give him double the reward.
We know this Prophet taught us this. We have these teachings in the Quran and the Hadith. Quran tells us that God is loving. He himself is not love
was a horrible dude. He is forgiver and he's loving. Quran tells us this. There is an agreement on the canon of the New Testament in the early church. That's not true, because there were church fathers who disregarded some of the chunks with within this Bible, for example, origin had his own canon, and he rejected some of the books of the New Testament. Then, as late as the 16th century, Martin Luther, one of the reformers who broke away from the Catholic Church.
His contention against the Catholic Church wasn't about the Old Testament. It was about the New Testament. he deemed the Epistle of James which you have in your Bible as a dubious text. He believed Martin Luther believed that this does not come from James, let alone God. The book of revelation was deemed to be a dubious text by Martin Luther. So I don't know why Clive is claiming this, that there was no disagreement. There were other Christian thinkers who believed that we should throw some of the books out of the Scriptures Book of Revelation is a contested text.
Second official of john and a third official of john is another problem. The official of Judah is another problem scholars argue about this. The Epistle of Romans is attributed to Paul, which some scholars do disagree with. So there are many problems in the Christian literature, mysterious.
The doctrine of the Trinity is missed is a mystery. I agree with that. It's a mystery. But God Almighty, on the tongue of Paul, he said, if he was ever inspired by God, with the with the Christians do believe in the first Corinthians, the book of First Corinthians, chapter 14, verse 33, Paul stated that God is not the author of a confusion, right? So if it's a mystery, it's, it's the confusion, and God Almighty wants you to love him, worship Him by all the heart, all thy soul, and all thy mind, how is that possible? If you do not understand God? If you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity, how do you love invite all thy soul, all thy heart and all thy mind? It is
not possible. So you should know them by the fruit. Now this is where Islam comes in two minutes. This is where Islam comes in. Jesus said that you should know the false prophets by the fruits they brought, what fruit did Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam bring? If he was the man mentioned in the book of Isaiah, chapter 29, verse 12, and the chapter 42 of the book of Isaiah, what fruit did he bring? The Book of Isaiah claims that he will bring bring judgment to the Gentiles. He will bring peace on earth. He will bring a law he will put the iron worshippers to shame he will be a messenger of God. He will be amazing
than a war and he will be successful against his enemies, he will triumph over them and he will come from Arabia.
He will come from Arabia. What did Mohammed salatu salam do when he died in the year 6630 to see within a century of his death 730 to see his followers governing from northern China to southern France, the largest empire world had ever known. And it wasn't an oppressive Empire. When Muslims went into lands What happened? dynasties of tomorrow, a Christian historian writing in the eighth century states, when the Muslims came to Syria, the Christians open the doors and they hug them with open arms. And they welcome them as liberated from their own Christian rosarians persecution, the Romans the Byzantines. When they entered Egypt, john of nicaea, and other Christian writer writing
in the late seventh century states that the Egyptian Christians joined the army of Muslims against their own Christian brothers who were more oppressive.
Then we read about the
when Muslims took Islamic Spain, or along the line of Al Andalus. In 711, a Muslim landed in Spain. What do the Jews have to say about this? Zion zohore, a Jewish writer, a contemporary Jewish writer, writes in his book on page number eight, that when the Muslims landed in Spain, the Jews welcome them as liberated from the Christian persecution. Christians haven't been always loving. Some Christians, I must say, Clive is an amazing guy.
I'm impressed. I
love all the Christians who are alive today, the evangelical Christians, they always come with the gospel of love, gospel of kindness and peace. And I admire that. But if you look at the history, you'll come to realize that they were Catholics than we are Protestants. And then what we have to do the born again Christians is a new phenomenon. And Christian Christianity, this religion has been developing through centuries. Now we had the Crusaders,
the Christians today, we have nothing to do with them. Fair enough. Then we had the mass burning of witches. Then the Christian said, We have nothing to do with that, fair enough. Then we had the mass burning of heretics. The protesters are doing it. So the Christian history is also full of this fruit, which cannot be from Jesus Christ. And these are the contentions I have. And I will end my presentation today. Thank you very much for being patient and listening to me, and I am expecting a hot q&a session. Thank you very much. Salaam Alaikum