Soleimani – Hindutva

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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Dear brothers, sisters, friends and foes out there and welcome to another episode of the blood brothers podcast with your host, Dr. Hussain. Today I have a very esteemed guest, a very celebrated figure of the Muslim community. Someone who as a young teen grew up watching the debates with the Christians. So I don't know what that means in terms of age for our guests. And that is none other than my dear brother. We'll start with mon Rashid, someone else comes along. I am getting old. You don't look at though. You are ripping the rails looking at me as a beauty is in the eye of the beholder? Mashallah depends on looking at me. Do you do any

paintwork on the hair? No. So that's pure natural bless, natural beauty. Mashallah.

Alhamdulillah dama let me kick off today's podcast by setting a scenario.

You're on a boat trip on your own for seven days. And I'm going to give you two options. You have to choose one. So think of a seven day boat ride on your own. Take

dude patio pink tea, good potty. Non or roti, roti, chicken or lamb. Lamb Hello Akira halwa books of theology or books of history history.

Seven Days Mohammed Rahim Allah or even Tamia Rahim Allah.

Mr. Mohammed.

Mr. Mohammed Rahim Allah or sha Allah Allah, Allah we are Mr. Mohammed.

Mohammed Ali Jinnah or allama Iqbal Escobar, Dr. Zakir Naik, reductase ora

Dr. s Rahman Sultan Aurangzeb Ali Abdul Hamid Aurangzeb

very interesting quite those responses were I don't qualify every single one of those choices go Okay, so I can select each one of those requires a podcast in itself Okay, so just very brief. I can understand how Mohammed the dawn of the hungry the founder, he made it potamia Exactly. Why would you go to the product so Gino is when you say Allah Mike Paulo's Amanda Regina was a big ball Medina

and a ball went to Jenna and invited him to get involved in the politics of Of course Jenna was already involved but he had given up a ball inspired him to come back and lead the Muslims and why it's not a matter of a doctor

because doctors forum and had a deeper knowledge of the Quran and Doctor night like and like has both are very valuable Of course, but doctors I would say dr. oz Rama was a lot bigger scholar theologically speaking than doctors I can I can now I presented Sultan Aurangzeb against Khalifa Mohammed is also equally if not greater giant Yeah, of modern Islamic history. Is that because of your Mughal history bias you chose? Potentially, yes. Partly because of that. And partly because I believe orange Zeb achieved more than Sultana Muhammad as a ruler as a ruler as a ruler. Yes. Okay, we can touch upon he had more control over his domain, then Sultan Abdul Hamid did really yeah,

orange zabe acquired territory didn't lose it. So talk to me, unfortunately, lost territory. This is true. This is true. When I met you three, four days ago, at the time of the recording of this podcast, there was the assassination of Iran's top military General qasem soleimani. By America. And of course, it's caused a massive controversy and discussion in the region and beyond about whether the death of this major general who's considered the second most powerful person in Iran, what it means for the region. Now, there's an interesting thing that you said to me, is that was he a sacrificial

giving from Iran to America to advance his agenda in the region? Can you elaborate on what you meant by that? Firstly, let me clarify that there are two perspectives on general soleimani. One perspective is the Iranian state perspective, not necessarily the perspective of the people. The state perspective is that he was a hero of Islam. He fought for Iranian interest in the region. He was heading many conflicts on the part of the Iranian government, in Yemen, in Syria, in Iraq, most importantly, and for that reason, he was a hero for the Iranian regime, the current Iranian regime. I separate the people from the region

Because the people

can,

can differ with the regime. And many do, as we know, from a recent events that there were protests in Iran, many 1000s were killed, depending on perspectives, again, depending on who's reporting.

It could be hundreds, it could be 1000s.

And at the same time,

people can be on the side of the regime. As we know, hundreds of 1000s turned up for his funeral. He was clearly very popular among hundreds of 1000s of people. So that cannot be ignored. That's one perspective that he was a hero. He did his job to the best of his ability. He gave His life The best part of his life to the cause of the Iranian Revolution, which started in 1979. And this is one perspective. The other perspective is the larger regional, if you call it the Sunni perspective, okay? The Sunni perspective on this person is completely the opposite, that he butchered hundreds of 1000s of people in Syria. He's responsible for the conflict in Yemen,

which is causing hundreds of 1000s of deaths because of starvation because of

other limits, or other problems caused by war in that region. He was responsible for killings of Sunnis in Iraq. And when I say Sudanese, I don't mean ISIS. Of course, the credit must be given where it's due. Iran must be credited by for fighting ISIS, but there is a conflation with certain pro Iran elements were fighting dies literally become the justification of cleansing Sunni towns and villages, right? Well, it did, for some reason, unfortunately, in Iraq, and these reports cannot be ignored, because this is not rhetoric, or this is not just these are not rumors, no human rights was issued issued exactly on iraq deaths called Yeah, and they were it was more muscle, Amber's entire

town, the backlash fell on innocent Sunni inhabitants of Mosul and Baghdad, and even places like Fallujah. Okay, people who had not nothing to do with war in general, and they were treated as ISIS. But if you looked at the reality,

carefully, if you looked at the reality carefully, those people hated ISIS as much as anyone else would do, right? So fighting ISIS does not become a justification to completely eradicate Sunni influence or existence from Iraq. Okay. So these are some of the things he was seen to have done. And this is the Sunni perspective, which I have come to, you know, read recently on online and offline in newspapers and news reports. Many documentaries have come out since he has passed away. So he has left two legacies behind depending on who's looking at him, the Iranian regime, or people who support the Iranian regime perspective. And the other perspective is the largest Sunni world

world world word perspective where people see him as a war criminal, as a murderer as a mass murderer. How depends how would you then respond to them in that case, when we've had the likes of received a battle on who sent his condolences to Iran reportedly referred to slimani as a Shaheed? We had Hamas Ismail Haniya who was there at the phenol himself and certain resistance groups within part Philistine who have voiced their support and condolences. We've had

no real voice of opposition and condemnation for many Sunni leadership. Yes, from the masses. Sure, yeah. The people of Italy were celebrating they were given sweets out even at all. Yeah, even the Shias in Iraq was celebrated. Really? Yes. It was reported by Al Jazeera. There are people on the streets of Baghdad celebrating his death she has these are not so nice, because there are Shia people in Iraq who want Iran out. And Phil Amman is a death meant that this would potentially cause Iran to leave Iraq, but we've not really had any vote the position that you've presented, which is widely seen as the Sunni position, which by the way, I tend to agree with, right.

But nevertheless, playing devil's advocate, we've not seen any voice of Sunni leadership come out and say this. Just to clarify, by the way I do not agree with any extrajudicial killing by anyone, anywhere in the world. Yeah. So by that virtue, the the killing the assassination was an act of barbarity. It was unlawful in my personal opinion, and i don't i don't i don't believe Donald Trump's justification.

him for what he did. Okay. This man had worked previously with America. He Iran was an ally of the US in Iraq. Both entities are fighting ISIS. Collectively, Iran was doing the dirty work of the US in Iraq. So what if you made them turn them? What I don't I don't know if they have turned against each other? I don't believe it. I cannot necessarily tell. But what do you what do you think triggered the assassination of custom soleimani? This is a very good question. I don't always believe what I hear on the news. I mean, I take a lot of the news I hear on mainstream channels with a pinch of salt, one of the commentators

His name is Bashar from.

He's a very big Middle East. expert on Al Jazeera. I don't know if you know him one. I think his name is Mohan Bashara name at the bottom of the Yeah, yeah, he came up with a very interesting theory that this could be a reason why Iran would have a risk or respect in the region because Iran was losing hold.

Its hold on power, because the people rising against the regime in Iran within Iran, as we have seen by recent protests, and people rising against Iranian influence in Iraq. So this could be a way of bringing the nation together, yes. Raising the nationalistic feeling of Death to America, Death to America slogans. And again, and again, that unites the nation, hundreds of 1000s of people will come together

at the funeral, and they will express their condolences for the family as well as the regime for losing such a powerful man, such an important figure of the regime. And this will raise the feeling of nationalism, and it will inflate the feeling of hatred against the US. And that would strengthen the regime. By extension, this was a possible interpretation of the events. But I'm not I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just trying to make sense of it. Okay, that how can suddenly things go better? How can they go? How can they go better? Like, what's the reason the 22 missile attacks which killed North American soldiers, while my view is very much inclined to what some other reports

have stated that Iran intentionally, essentially fired missiles at a facility where they were there was no that no one there, as if to deliberately avoid casualties so that the US does not retaliate with a bigger, you know, attack, I think there's definitely more way more to this incident than than what meets the eye. Right. There is no shadow of a doubt that Iran has played a key role in the region, which in some instances, it was in absolute accordance with American policy within the region, the full of party barn, the fall of Saddam, these are two wars, which actually strengthened the Iranian government and its position within the region. However, we are still left with a wide

perception that Iran is the Bulwark and the rep, and then the symbol of anti imperialism in the region. Right. And this is echoed by their support material and financial of the Palestinian resistance, namely Islamic Jihad and Hamas. And there's still many Sunnis who subscribe to this, this this thinking, for example, I was looking at the Pakistani press, and I was looking at Pakistani commentators. And they were very mournful over the assassination of qasem soleimani, the dawn the junk newspaper, it was mixed in Pakistan, the reaction was mixed, but there was a fair amount of the liberal the liberal establishment. Yes, right. Qasim soleimani his assassination was

something that was bad and it should be condemned. So there is still this perception I even I say that, I say that any extrajudicial killing conducted by anyone is to be condemned. So we unlawful so we live, or we at least we claim to live in a civilized world, which is governed by laws, international laws, and those laws cannot be transgressed. Just because someone is powerful doesn't mean you can do what you want. They may hate someone, you may hate someone, but there is a due process of law. We have to follow it. Isn't it frustrating that the lawmakers themselves are the ones that always break the Yes. I mean, I was shocked when Trump said that he will potentially bomb

college cultural sites, which is absolutely shocking. This is what ISIS was doing. I mean, I was really devastated when I saw ISIS, reading some of these historic sites being a story and being a student of history, you can imagine what I went through right? Of course, the human loss is one thing okay. But history cannot be made again. Okay, history. It cannot be reinvented. Okay, if you have lost historical objects, if you have lost historical evidence, it is lost forever. You will never recover it again, unfortunately. So I was devastated by that. For the US president to make a statement like that. It was very shocking for myself, right. So

law cannot be break broken. You

can't break the law. When you feel that you hate someone, and you want to take action, and you want to really hurt them by attacking the cultural sites or attacking the civilians for that matter, or attacking hospitals, and, and, you know, schools and, you know, civilian institutions. This is not this is not allowed. This shouldn't be allowed. In fact, the world should unite against such behavior. Do you think Sunni's at least in Syria and Iraq and those who have felt the brunt of the Iranian regimes policies in those countries? Do you think we should support

an American led war against Iran? I don't think we support we should support any power in that region, we should support peace. Okay, harmony, we what we what we should ask for is

dismantling of arms,

foreign armies, leaving those lands, going back to the homelands, leaving this region to itself. And let the leaders of these regions decide what the fate of the region is. We have too many players, foreign players, testing their weapons on innocent people. We have Russia in there, we have the US and they we have Britain in there. We have France in there. Okay. These are very powerful nations with deadly weapons. And some of them actually testing the weapons on this region. We are not guinea pigs, people of this region, the Muslims have had enough. So they must leave the region. And there shouldn't be a war. We shouldn't take sides against anyone, no matter how much we hate, we might

hate one party, for example, against the other. And we might we might start thinking of supporting one party against the other we shouldn't do that. Okay. Again, what's going to happen? The powerful they won't suffer.

Trump will be in his office, the Iranian regime, the current Iranian political establishment, they won't be harmed is the people is the innocent people in Iran, in Iraq, or in the middle, a wider Middle East, they're going to suffer, they will be bombed, they will be stopped. They will be like what's happening in Yemen right now. So this is why I believe Iran should pull out of Yemen, it should pull out of Syria, it should pull out of Iraq, and let there be peace. Okay, I believe both of these powers have caused immense damage to the peace of the region. Take Now, obviously moving a bit more closer to home, India. Now, since Modi Ji has been in power, the India has taken quite a

nasty turn, right? where many of these sentiments these anti muslim Islamophobic sentiments Well, I would humbly argue we're always there in Indian society has now become very apparent. And the ugly underbelly of kind of a hindutva RSS kind of ideology has now become very apparent, especially in state policies. So we've had the citizenship Amendment Act, which basically states that any migrants or refugees from Buxton, Bangladesh, Afghanistan, that are Hindu, Sikh, Jain or Christian will be given citizenship, explicitly excluding Muslims. Then we've had the National Register of citizenship, which was rolled out in Assam

potential looking at 1.9 million people, predominately Muslims or Bengali, ethnicity that will be in detention camps. Last year, earlier on, we had the revoking of Article 370, and 35, eight in Kashmir. And within a space of a year, we're seeing all these kind of policies, what is the future looking like for Muslims of India, which numbers more than Bangladesh and Pakistan? The future looks very grim. And this is the future the founding fathers of Pakistan could envision, in the earlier part of the 20th century, they could see this coming, hence the necessity of Pakistan. That's why Pakistan and Bangladesh was created because those Founding Fathers could not trust the majority

Hindu rule.

Because it could go anywhere. It could go towards secularism, which it did for a few decades. Or it could also go towards extreme right wing internationalism, Hindu nationalism, which is what we, what we're seeing right now, the rise of Hindu nationalism, and Modi had a landslide victory. And democracy has failed, unfortunately. I mean, it has failed globally. Are we saying democracy has failed elicited by industry or are we saying democracy has failed because the Indians chose the leader in landslide? No, I'm saying democracy has failed as a system globally. Okay. If this is what democracy is, if this is what it does, then it has to be reviewed. Okay. If democracy brings people

like Modi to power, okay, someone who was accused of genocide in Gujarat

2003 if democracy can bring someone like Trump to power, who was accused of abusing women, and using vulgar language against

minority women, disability brackets, he has hurt every single entity on the planet, but he's right but he is representative of a large constituency of his photos. This is why it bol, the philosopher of the East remonstrated Talalay in a very powerful stanza

that emerged from the nicaea much much better Razia fosh kiyohara Chung Donna sa colada hagarty jabariya Jota Hakuna Matata is made bondo Coco Nakata, tolani kata translation, please translation is that an Englishman, an Englishman, he exposed this secret to me, as not very often the wise reveal it to others,

that democracy is a way of governing in which you count people, you don't wear them. So when you start counting when a Philosopher's vote, or when a when a scholars vote is equal to someone to

some like this is same, what Plato criticized in democracy in his Republic, okay, Republic is one of the best critiques of democracy, okay, it is one of the best critiques of democracy. This is what he said that in a democratic system,

someone who has no knowledge has no awareness, his vote is equal to that equal to someone who is a thinker, someone who has who is educated someone who's a philosopher, this is not fair. This is absolutely devastating. And this is exactly what we're seeing right now. In this system, the current system we have in the world, masses can be manipulated by newspapers, by power, by money by glitter by spectacle, right. And they can be conditioned into voting for some of the worst people in the society. And this is exactly what we're seeing right now. Okay, we're seeing

the the embodiment of that failure of democracy, it is in these people, if you could have the is of the leadership of different Indian Muslim community, whether it be on amavi be political leaders, if you had that is for five minutes. What advice would you give them? from your own perspective as a historian as someone who follows the events of the region quite closely? In terms of I know, it's very, for me to say non Rashid given action plan for the Muslims of India is quite crazy. But if you could share some thoughts with the leadership of the Muslims of India, yeah, regarding the current situation, what would it be without rubbing in their face? I look, there's a lot blackston because

I'm seeing that a lot. Yeah, I'm seeing a number of commentators and even lay Muslims who are funbox on the Hey, look, this was the wisdom of Genesis urban Look, this is what Buxton was created, etc. And I feel as to be, whilst you can appreciate that from a hindsight perspective, when Muslims of India are literally being lynched up and down the country as they are to tell them by the way, guys that these workbooks I was creating, I feel that's a bit you is rubbing salt in the wound, and it could even make them entrenched even further in your practice. So you're also what could you potentially tell the Muslims of India, their leadership with regards to I would tell them,

immediately unite, unite without delay, and

do not stop your movement. Do not be discouraged by accusations by misrepresentations of the regime against the Muslims, and unite with the non Muslims. Because there are many non Muslims in India, who are very moral, ethical, they're very upright in the politics, and they are the ones who are defending the Muslims. Muslims have effectively become second class citizens after the passing of this bill.

Now, by law, Muslims are now second class citizens.

That literally absolutely, if you are passing a law, and you you are completely ignoring excluding an entire minority from a country from the largest minority, which runs into hundreds of millions. If you are excluding them from a law, you are discriminating against them, based upon religion, they become effectively second class citizens. People talk about ISIS, people are talking about Taliban videos from the 90s where they were beating people in the streets, and there was so much noise about that on CNN on NBC, Fox News, BBC Sky News. All of these international channels are running shows, talk shows debates, on the barbarity of the of the East for market.

Absolutely, it hasn't stopped, right? There are lynching videos coming out of India, there are people who are being killed and they are these people are not even hiding the faces those who are doing the killings, right. They are killing in the name of Hinduism and they are not 123 as many we are talking about hundreds of 1000s of people who actually sympathize with that view. India needs to be reconditioned the minds of the people in India, they need to be reconditioned. They need to be re educated because they have been radicalized. They have been they are Hindu ISIS. I'm sorry to use the language but they are Hindu ISIS. They are Hindu Nazis. The current regime governing India, the

BJP regime, but what about the comparison? I know why you made the karma ISIS SP Franco is still a fringe. Beyond fringe. Absolutely. This is mainstream. Yes. Unfortunately, that's the main story. That's the problem. This is why it's more ISIS was never mainstream. This is an alarming situation. ISIS ideology they fit the way everyone has been rejected been rejected has been rejected by 99.9%. Whereas hindutva RSS BJP ideology is mainstream has a wide support from Canada. From the US. Why are these people not okay, look in the West? Muslims are always taunted. Why don't you do enough against extreme and we are screaming and shouting from our mosques from the pulpit from our scholars to our

lay people are saying Hold on. These people are your product. They have nothing to do with our civilization. ISIS is not our civilization. I have not seen that from Hindu representative groups. Gentlemen, openly celebrate. Yes. The it's like Hitler when he came to power in 1933. Yeah, okay. Well, you can call it a sham election. You know, whatever. You know, it was a rigged election or it was influenced.

Absolutely. He was very popular as a leader. That doesn't make him right. Yeah. Okay. Likewise, on a bigger scale, unfortunately, what's happening in this case and the case of India and BJP governing India. Okay. It is very clear. Some of the major players, some of the major ministers and politicians are using extremely vulgar, divisive, genocidal language against the Muslim population, if not others, okay. People like Yogi adityanath. Yes. Okay. The Chief Minister

of Uttar Pradesh, the largest province of India, that province alone has as much population as Pakistan has, you know, it's over 200 million people in that particular province. He is governing the largest population in India. He is clearly openly making genocidal statements, biased, prejudiced statements. He's justifying his behavior justifying the police. We have seen the videos coming out with police in this particular provinces going into Muslim properties, smashing cars, Rolling Stones, Shadow shouting, raping, terrorizing, terrorizing a population of millions, we're not talking about a neighborhood, we're not talking about a town we're talking about. Millions of

people are being terrorized systematically by the state apparatus. We have

1000s of policemen walking into Muslim neighborhoods, smashing properties, cars, houses, windows, walking into homes, beating people up women and children yet we have seen all these videos come out, no one can do that. Thanks to social media, thanks to Facebook and YouTube and all that okay. All of this has come out they cannot deny we saw what happened in Aligarh Muslim University, Jamia Islamia University, where they were getting into campuses there was beaten up peaceful protests

recently as well, yes.

Celebrities

you know, they have come out some of the some of the actors they have come out and supported. So, a lot of good people, more people are supporting Muslims and Muslims should take full advantage of this

for the goodness of India, what do we want for India with the Muslims globally the oma What do we want for India, India is a beautiful country, it is rich in history, Muslims govern India for nearly 1000 years parts of India and Muslims governed India with love. Although there are haters on the other side who claim that India was devastated by Muslim invasions, India was mistreated by Muslims Indian populations were devastated colonized looted of the rest Yeah, oppressed all of that, but let me tell you something, just to just to you know, refute this particular claim. Muslims will pans during the daily Sultanate period to a man looks right the the meme looks Yeah, India, right. There

were Muslims. And they were the most powerful entities politically speaking and militarily speaking in India for almost two centuries. Okay, if not more,

the third

And the 14th century, both centuries, much of these centuries were spent by the photons, defending India against Mongols against the Mongols. The Mongols invaded India at times on a daily basis, sometimes monthly basis. Mongols did not disappear. So turn around so being Melbourne, right, he lost his son in a battle against Mongols. his heir apparent, someone who was supposed to succeed his father and he never recovered from this. Yes. So So Tom died in a grieving for his son, right? Then came the hinges, okay? hinges for the Mongols. Okay. People can claim or they were defending their own government their own power, but no, no, no, no, they were defending India you can't because they

were Hindus in the armies. This will. This was not a purely Muslim establishment. The Delhi Sultanate had he had the Hindu generals fighting cyber the same with the Mongols.

The Mongols had Hindu, Rajput, and jaat. At times, generals fighting side by side with the Mughals against the enemies. Okay. Some of the majors are the biggest generals in the mobile armies. were worried too. So how do you counter the fact that was they were defending India against Mongols? Yeah, foreign invaders that when they weren't doing that, though, too busy, isolating and disenfranchising and oppressing Hindus. They weren't doing that they were they were oppressing Hindus, why would they have Hindus in their armies? As generals? It's a good question, isn't it? It's a question. If there were, were those Hindus siding with them? No. These these were times,

very, very disturbing times barbaric times. On civilized time. There were no international there was no international law governing countries and kings and armies. Okay. And if you look at the Muslim period, okay, comparatively, it was a lot more peaceful. When you look at the larger scale, okay, of course, Muslims never had peace in this way. And it was

the Middle Ages were full of wars, rebellion, and there was no such period as a utopian view. No, no, there's no Utah there is no utopia. Absolutely, it doesn't exist yet. But we have to see is we have to see the behavior of the Muslims will pans comparatively against those who were there in India, you know, for example, from a Hindu background, okay, because Hindu Hindus are the majority, even then. So Muslims did not have this policy of pressing or suppressing Hindus. They never had this policy. In fact, this is why some of the founding fathers of Pakistan having studied the history of India carefully, they knew anytime, unfortunately, through the who have the power, who

would you regard as the founding fathers of Pakistan, beyond Mohammed Ali Jinnah? Who was the founder, I would say, if you were to go back in history, I would say shower you laid the foundations, okay. Okay. He gave the political theory, okay, to the Muslims of India, how to govern effectively how to govern justly, very importantly, in his books like pajetta, Lyle baliga. And his,

you know, Encyclopedia called is on a lava lava where we defended the concept of a lava in Islam and what an ideal khilafah should look like, you know, just because someone claims to be a halifa doesn't make him a halifa. Like ISIS. Caliphate is not a caliphate. We don't accept it as a catalyst. No. Okay. They claimed it, if you wear a badge, that I'm a surgeon, or it doesn't make any sense. I mean, it does if you if you if you're a cobbler, okay, if you saw if you're someone who was a butcher from an avatar, okay, and you claim to be a surgeon just by by the virtue of cutting things out right? You don't become a surgeon you're a butcher, right? Likewise cholula he gave a

proper theory of proper Calif anyone else okay. At that time in India, just like

I mean, if you go back Of course, there are so many other individuals,

Tamia a mama llama worthy and a mom was already talking about more two more tools, the theory that Buxton or there should be a separate state for Muslims to survive Sharla did not necessarily talk about the separation, okay. He talked about the necessity of holding on to power to maintain peace and justice. His view was that if Muslims governed by the rules of Islam properly, India will become a peaceful about not only for Muslims, but non Muslims, okay. Allah had seen that time of orangey when he was a child he mo duty was of a similar opinion, he believed that Muslims should remain as part of India because eventually we can rule India like we have done for centuries, under a

democracy would be impossible because the British colonial establishment would leave democracy behind because that's what they planned, although they were themselves grueling by dictatorship, because colonialism is by default detention, right. But when they would leave India, they would leave it as a democracy and therefore demographically, again, graphically more

Muslims would be worse off, and Muslims would have lost severely and these arguments that collectively, Muslims of Bangladesh and Pakistan and what we have in India, they would have outdone, the Hindus democratically and they would have been a big power this this argument doesn't work because Muslims were and are demographically so sparse in India that they cannot effectively make a change. To this day, how many Muslim MPs do we have in the Indian Parliament? We have nearly 300 million Muslims in India. And they all they are all divided. They are all divided demographically, not necessarily ideologically, but demographically. They are all in different places. Okay. That's

why they come to they cannot have an impact. democratically, they have to vote for Hindu candidates, those who favor them National Congress or BJP? Yes, exactly. They have to vote for them because they have no other option. A Muslim candidate would simply not win because the majority wouldn't vote for him majority is either on the side of Congress, which is secular liberal type Hindus, okay. Or the extreme right wing ultra, you know, ultra nationalist Hindus voting for someone like BJP. So people are very naive. And they claim that if Muslims were to be in a democracy, and I don't agree with the Jamaat e Islami Yeah, Jamaat e Islami, or the scholars of the abandoned that we would have been

better off. No, I believe it. Well, people like a ball society. Jenna, they knew better than you, but they knew what was coming. They knew our train was heading their way. And it was going to hit them so hard that they would never be able to recover like was happening indeed, how much difference have the Muslims unfortunately have made in India? Not because Muslims are incompetent? Not because Muslims are incapable Muslims are purely due to opportunity, not much at all? No, because they are marginalized, systematically marginalized from politics, so they can but Indian Muslims can easily turn around and say, Well, look at the bloody state of Buxton. Buxton, itself is no, it's also

cannot be argued as a failed state. Okay, in Pakistan as a failure as failed a state it might be. Okay. I don't I don't believe it's a failed state. It's a nuclear power, which is still standing firmly on its feet. Okay. It's enduring all the challenges. It's surrounded by enemies. Okay. And it has effectively you know, it's survived a very dangerous war in Afghanistan. Okay. Which it also played a key role in Yes, absolutely had to for its survival. Of course, what do you do? There's a Russian generals are saying we will have our dinner in Karachi. No. Okay. The point I want to make is, Indian Muslims can easily pass it back to our brothers in Pakistan. Yeah. That you talk about

this great freedom of being Muslim or being a land for the park. How did 9071 work out for you when your own brother split away from you? So how did that work out? Go speak to your brothers in Bengal? How did the concept of an Islamic bookstore work out for them, your economy at the moment is in tatters? You may be a nucleus state by a piece that you don't really have much control over when you press that button. It's just there to flex your muscle against India, Buxton, we got Imran Khan currently who initially appeared to be a breath of fresh air from previous administrations. But nevertheless, he's going around with the begging bowl asking for money and handouts from So who are

you as a Muslim from Pakistan to tell us in these that way in tatters, and Milan is a dire situation very good questions, valid points, all of them are valid points. And they may be true. Pakistan is economically weak. Pakistan is politically struggling. Pakistan is not a model state for the Muslim Ummah to follow no doubt, it has many weaknesses, many, many problems. Okay, I feel about coming. Sorry, I feel a but yeah, but at the same time, at the same time, in Pakistan, you don't have Muslims being lynched for slaughtering a cow. You have Muslims worshipping as the like, as divided as they may be, or as divided as they are in Pakistan. There is sectarianism in Pakistan. There has

been Shia Sunni sectarianism in Pakistan. It has caused problems. And the recent past there has been army brutality in the in the tribal areas, fortunately, yes, there has been some brutality, which has caused some, but this brutality was against elements who were trying to completely dismantle the state. They were completely, they were against the idea of Pakistan. They were trying to destroy the country from within, and they were working for foreign powers. So in order to handle them, the army had to Couldn't you can't just sit around, if you if you're the God of a building, and you can see someone putting fire to the building, you have to do something right. And in the process,

unfortunately, not our military made mistakes. Not that I'm not a spokesperson with a military that's fine, not a spokesperson for the Government of Pakistan. They have a lot of improved improvements to do there's a lot to improve, but Pakistan still has is Islamic.

identity, Muslims can walk the streets of Pakistan without fear of persecution. Muslim Pakistan basically represents the civilization of Islam in India which goes back 1000 years. Okay, which goes Pakistan? I mean, sometimes it's funny to think about it I mean, I don't necessarily agree with this kind of rhetoric and language but even the missiles if you look at the Pakistani military protests Okay, what are they called the old the old named after

him heroes necessarily heroes I mean, I don't believe he doesn't have he

doesn't have he was necessarily a hero of Islam. He was a king who was doing what kings do what exactly can you do and rate

accumulate wealth money and make yourself powerful and and recruit armies to become more powerful likewise votaries they were doing the same thing daily so towns were doing this they were not we're not saying they were angels. So when we try we when we try to remind him romanticize them and we try we try to paint them as well. You lost wonder masala crying at night. They were not like that. Some of them used to drink. Some of them will be but they had a lot of lira for Islam. You cannot take that away from them. Okay, how do we know that? Look at the coins. Look at the coins, the language on the coins. Okay. You don't have that language today in

on any coins from the Muslim world. You go to the currency. Of course Saudi Arabia is an exception because the flag has the Shahada, which I should they should reconsider because the flag is being desecrated and it's being used for you know different

kinds of things and and that disrespects the charlatan okay.

But if you look at the Muslim currency today, hardly any country has verses from the Quran or the name of the the central uniting entity the Calif okay for example Delhi Sultanate coins okay we pick them up you will have the name of the Calif battered killin mustache, okay. And Hakeem Bella, for example, his name is there on the coins, and these guys are in they have never seen the bailiff. Right, but to maintain the Islamic identity and their attachment with the wider Muslim civilization, they represented Islam and Muslims, of course, in a very imperfect way in Indian, they were not perfect. Coming back to the problems of Pakistan. Yeah, problems of Pakistan. They are there of

course that don't throw so the saying of don't throw stones in a in a glass house. Okay. I accept that. But at the same time, if you do a comparison between currently India and currently Pakistan, I can tell you with confidence in Pakistan, you will not see the lynching of Hindus. There are hundreds of 1000s of Hindus in Pakistan in the province of Sindh. If a Muslim mob

was to attack, a Hindu village, you know, who would fight against them? Muslims, probably Pakistani Muslims from all over the country would rally to support the Hindus. Okay, this rhetoric on Indian news channels you hear that all Hindu girl was kidnapped, and she was forced into Islam. So what they're trying to do is they're trying to hide the crimes, crimes that are being committed by the current BJP government in India. Some of those crimes are genocidal, they are openly xenophobic, Islamophobic and barbaric acts of violence against Muslims happening in India to hide those crimes. What they do is they magnify one or two isolated incident isolated isolated incidents in Pakistan

for example, okay, it is true, they have been miscarriages of justice in Pakistan, possibly against minorities, it is true it happens it is a huge country. But you what you will not find in Pakistan

is a genocide against the minorities for example, what happened in Gujarat in 2003? What happened against the Sikhs in 1984? Okay, what is happening against Dalits? Okay,

or what is happening against Muslims now, where there is a mob

and a Muslim man is being tortured. People are standing by and watching the torture, sometimes the police even prison, will you please present? You would never see that in Pakistan. Fortunately, I'll give you proof of that. Recently, less than 10 days ago, there was a man who

basically incited violence against the Sikhs. And then conocido in Punjab, Pakistan, Pakistani side of Punjab, okay. And it took a mob of Muslims. Of course, these people are very ignorant. They are they are farmers and peasants, you know, work the fields they don't know better, okay. They were unfortunately led by this person and he went to the Gurdwara, which is a Sikh holy shrine, and then conocido which is

Close very close to Lahore. And this is where Grenada was born. Yes. Okay, that's the city and, and they were shouting slogans against the Sikhs and they were threatening the Sikhs. He was immediately locked up. He was picked up by the state. Okay, because it happened so quickly. You know, today social media something has before the police arrived, cameras already live on Facebook and people think that's nothing. Go and see what happened to him. Not only that the state action Imran Khan tweeted about this, he said, he said the difference between us and what the Indian government is doing is that we took action against someone who was trying to inspire or instigate violence against

the Sikh community and read the state protected the community. On the other hand, we have CMS and prime ministers. And

you know,

of India, of India, making statements open, openly Islamophobic xenophobic statements against the minority and not doing anything effective against lynchings and violence against Muslims. So So thankfully, in Pakistan, we have security for Muslims. And for non Muslims, I am telling you, me as a person, as a Muslim living in Britain, who happens to come from Pakistan, if there was violence against Christians, or Hindus in Pakistan, live violence alone, even if someone's if someone was to make speeches against Hindus, Sikhs, I would be one of the first people to arrive back in that country and I would be making public you know, speeches, I will be organizing protests against such

elements, okay. In Pakistan, you do not have anything like that. So you hear on the news on in India is all lies all exaggerated, magnified and just to hide their own crime. So I opposite the question to you back again, back to why has the ideology of Hindu supremacy become exacerbated and popularized of late, why has it garnered so much support? Okay, because it has, I can't even call it a 5050 situation, I call it ignorance, ignorance, the masses, the poor people of India, living in the rural areas. They're very poor, very ignorant about anything in life apart from the farming and the villages wanting a Hindu Rasta. Is there any theological historical basis from your knowledge of

a kind of Hindu state a pure state? No. As I said, it's a very recent idea, which was instigated by the British, the British divided Muslims and Hindus on communal communal lines to be able to govern India, okay, they could they couldn't afford the Hindus and Muslims uniting against the British rule and when they did, lo and behold, we had independence, okay. Even in the Indian mutiny 1857 you've seen resembles Hindus and Muslims fought against the British to gain independence. So, the British more than anyone else, understood that Hindus and Muslims have to be divided, they have to divide for them to be able to govern India for longer and they created Hinduism. Now, you may be thinking

Hold on a second, what are you saying? But the British created Hinduism, I am seeing the British created Hinduism Hinduism as an ideology as as an idea to stand against stand against Islamic identity. Hindus are divided previously. Firstly, Hindu is a Persian word. It is not even a Hindu word no Sanskrit. It's not it's not Sanskrit No, no Hindu is a Persian word which was used by Persian chroniclers and writers, okay throughout the Mughal period and beyond, right. So, Hindus are divided in to rajputs jots, okay.

baratas Okay. This is how they were called Brahmins, Brahmins. Okay, so, the Brahmins are basically costs Okay, Brahmins

Kashmiri were sugar, these are fork cost shooters are the lowest cost who are doing the cleaning work and all that and they will not see it from your reading of history and from your research or knowledge of this area. Has there ever been a time in India where there was a purist Hindu rule? Like Like we've never like if you speak to Muslims, you can say under qualified Russia Deen under attempted it was attempted by the Murata. Okay, okay. The mirages were a devastating force in India. Well, they celebrated now these days, they are celebrated for the wrong reasons. If you knew the history of the monitors monitors, were killing as many Hindus as they were killing Muslims, but

otters are not India loving entity. In fact, we have evidence to the contrary that Muslims will tans. They loved India more than the monitors. Absolutely. The Muslims will tans were seen as outsiders. They were more local. They were more. They were more of more of sons of the land than the burrata tomatoes are being celebrated now because

Bollywood movies and entertainment absolutely academia and they are not movies like in movies like amateur Bunny, but yes, which is a recent production. Then Baji, Rama and Mastani. And then we have even

even another movie about Allah allowed him to kill jivas padmavathi. Yes, but North Korea, okay. So these Hindu rulers of the past, whether they're Murata or rajputs, are being celebrated erroneously as part of this wider agenda, absolutely to give rise to this Hindu nationalistic feeling, and to justify it somehow, historically, there is no historical justification. I'm a student of history. I read scholars and I.

I told that line scholarly line I'm I hope I'm not biased and prejudice makes a massive claim says the morata don't represent a sentiment of a purist Hindu states. No, they don't. Why because they were destroying. They were there. Who, firstly we have to understand when we studied the history of the mirages, yeah, who was fighting mirages, the Mughals were fighting. This is the misconception after the Iraq war fighting the Murata Sava, the Mughals over the Mughals. Yeah. And so the Hindus of Bengal, the Hindu, Murata has invaded bank wall so many times and they were simply coming to burn villages to loot pollute and rape. They were notoriously known for raping not to spread hidden rude.

No, no, no, there was nothing about Murata that Muslim generals in the Battle of Pawnee but they had a Muslim general on the site. Okay, yes. And ama job, daddy had Hindus fighting on his side. So there was no Hindu. Of course, there was the religious sentiment that was used, okay, from the Muslim side, which was predominantly Muslim. Okay. The abdali side, okay, I my job Dolly was the leader. And they were people like Hafiz Ramadan,

the ruler of rohilla tans and then they were people like Xiao dolla, the ruler of the state of Nevada was Shia, but he had joined

the Muslim coalition okay to fight against the greater threat which was the monitors okay knew what would what it would look like if the monitors came to power in North India. So he fought side by side with the the predominantly Muslim army against the monitors. Okay. And then we had an Ebola and under Hassan ruder, okay. So the purpose was to somehow neutralize the Murata threat, even Chava. Lula had written letters to all major Muslim players in the land, to highlight the chart and the morata rise because what were they doing? They were simply

at that time they were simply taking land, they were burning, pillaging, they were Raiders, Murata basically Raiders, Murata were not

established rulers they did rule from Puna right in the south or in central India, okay. They did they had an empire there no doubt, but as far as North India or North West is concerned, they will simply come in raid, pillage, burn, accumulate wealth and come back to the occupied Lahore. They came very close to push our Morocco, okay.

But otters are occupied daily A times and they had committed atrocities, you cannot take that away from them. baratas was the most devastating

force in Indian history. In the 18th century, they caused more damage to India than anyone else did. I am saying this with confidence. Marotta has destroyed the Mughal Empire the moguls made India a single entity. Of course, we will claim that Ashoka had done it before in ancient times he had occupied all of India, he made it one of course no doubt, but recent times of recent history not very far distant from us moguls who was closest to bring it to us again absolutely they united India as one entity India before that was not one entity there was no such thing as such thing as India there was no India there was no part Okay, the territory was there, but it was divided into

different principalities governing by different systems vidyanagar Empire in the south, which was Hindu Yeah, okay. And Hindu in what sense different following different deities having different temples, different system altogether to rajputs in rajputana, for example, in Rajasthan currently on in this region, there were different to the Hindus of Bengal, and this will be fine. You know, this is a there is a very interesting book written by Richard Eaton Richard M. Eaton, who was an American scholar as he called on Indian history. The book is called a purge unite the persianate age, okay, the purge in his age, and he discusses the history of

the Persian political authority in India.

From 1000 to 1700, for almost 700 years, and he talks about this, that how Hindu kings are invading other Hindu territories

and designating temples of other Hindu kings, because temples are seen as symbols of power for those respective things. So, once you demolish the temple, once you break the idol, or the Deity,

then that demo demoralizes, the army and the and the king and the king loses power. So Hindus were doing this, right. So my daughters were doing exactly the same thing. They were going into other Hindu territories, and they were fighting and at times they were signing contracts. And they were in agreements with Muslims, they had peace with Muslim entities. So mulatos are not necessarily a Hindu representation of power in India, in any sense. They did try to revive Hindu potpie. They called it that we want to install our own Emperor in Delhi,

Visa v the models so that we can have a Hindu government in India, a Hindu Empire, they tried that they even talked about it. But how Hindu were there is the question, how Hindu were they? They came with a unique form of Hinduism, which was very, very devastating. I mean,

you would forget if you read about Murata you would forget about atrocities committed by Nazis. And I mean, I know the comparison is wrong, it can be anachronistic, okay. But you would forget about atrocities committed committed by ISIS and Nazis. And, you know, are they here? Are the Hindu scholars and historians who say what you say? Yes. 100%? Really? Absolutely. Absolutely. If you read all major, Hindu, I don't know how Hindu are they? I mean, they are secular Hindus, or the liberal Hindus or whether the Hindu Hindu, I don't know how Hindu they are. But they have Hindu names. And scholars who have talked about this. So So do you ever foresee a situation if the situation doesn't

get better? Yeah, for the Muslims of India? Do you ever see you can run you can watch a scene off the right hand. Yeah. But do you ever foresee Buxton allowing some Muslims of India to come and settle? Absolutely. Why not if they had to, but it would be very sad if they had to do that. And I believe India is a beautiful country. It's a great country with great minds, great intellectuals, beautiful people, beautiful cultures. Okay. We want India to flourish we want I'm speaking as a Muslim, okay. And I am. I'm very certain that the majority of the Pakistani Muslims and Bengali Muslims share my sentiment and disregard, we want

peace in India. If there is peace in India, there's peace in Bangladesh and Pakistan close okay. We want India to be a peaceful apart, we want to be able to visit India, I want the borders to be opened, there will be trade between pakistan india and Bangla. Imagine how rich these countries have become. The only reason we do not have this trade or this cordial relationship between the governments, not the people, the people love each other. Believe me if the borders are lifted, okay? The barriers are lifted. Daily would be Lahore

within within two weeks, and Lahore would be in Delhi. Muslims in Pakistan, they would be driving through the border from Lahore. They also it was it may also poses some threats. Why? If you have peace, why would they be threat? They can't be peace because the two very countries were founded upon the antagonism and

not necessarily it the bitterness came because of Kashmir. Not necessarily. two countries don't have to be against each other, fighting each other till death. No, but they may. But the founding of those respective states mistakes were based upon religious lines and therefore it poses an existential issue why you can't have such as idealistic and unsure as good as it may be. It was a positive threats of autumn bodies and terrorists and rogue agents and ISI agents and all kinds of madness happening across borders. Now this is happening because of the problem of Kashmir. I'm telling you, this all boils down to Kashmir, the Kashmir crisis, if both governments can sit down

together like Imran Khan has been saying repeatedly, that if we sit down and we discuss but the problem is how do you discuss with someone like Modi? But now how do you talk to someone like Amit Shah, Yogi adityanath? Look, let me just ask you, let me just ask you something very honest for you. Yeah. How can a hand span of Kashmir ever legitimately be part of India? It could even be independent or part of Pakistan. That's what I see. Yes. How can you ever be a part of India? Yes, it doesn't make sense. I know it was annexed by force. Exactly. So you can only ever be an independent consumer which is of late last 1015 years missing a lot more sentiments or a part of the

Kashmiri people decide to let them let let the International Committee

Which is mostly sleeping when Muslims are being brutalized around the world. Unfortunately, the disturbed international community has become

Yes, it has become an insolvent people. When these global leaders use the term international community, it is useless I'm sorry. When Muslims are being brutalized all over the world, this international community is sleeping, okay? When when a donkey dies somewhere or when a dog I mean, rightly so we need to make a we, we need to protect animals as much as we need to protect humans, right? But there is more noise for animals, animals, raw animal rights around the world. This is why Muslims need to wake up globally and they're trying to wake up. Mashallah, recently, the Kuala Lumpur summit summit was

a breath of fresh air. It was very encouraging. The Muslim leaders are now realizing that they need to do something about this because

unfortunately, unfortunately, there was a mistake. I don't think Pakistani government shouldn't should have taken that course. But politics is a very dirty game. I'll be positive that way. We'll take away 4 million labors of Foxconn from Bangladesh, and they will pull out the money that they've that they've deposited to the Foxconn bank. And for that reason, Imran Khan did not attend. You're right about that. But then Iran was there and Saudi Arabia does not want to sit with people. I mean, regimes like Iran, the Iranian Iranian regime has completely devastated the region, but the Neo Ottoman Sultan edelen was also Yes. So he was, I believe, I believe is a better politician, I

believe is a better politician. He knows politics. Okay. And coming back to his condolences sent to Iran, for the loss of the general his politics. I'm sure he doesn't sympathize with what he had done in Syria. Eve. I'm, I'm very sure Erdogan does not sympathize with the actions of Iran, in Syria, in Yemen, and in Iraq, so even political So are you saying even reportedly referring to soleimani as Shaheed reportedly, okay, is that also co set as well? Yes. Unfortunately, is politics so Sudanese are into political Takia, then, isn't it?

I wouldn't call it the key is politics is politics, Donald Trump, okay? Or Dislike just like President Reagan, okay? praising the Afghan Mujahideen as a factor and to an extent that they had to make make Rambo three to glorify the Afghan cause, okay, these very terrorists were at that time period that was political turkey on the part of the government, governments leaders always do it. Okay. They always speak a language but they don't actually mean so back to Kashmir is why hence the hence the claim that they are a bunch of hypocrites. Yeah, but if they are not hypocrites, and I'm using inverted commas, okay, then how would they govern? If every single leader said his mind? And

what what is in his heart? Do you think it would be a leader anymore? People would you know, you know, so? Do you think Trump's traits everything he I mean, what is now you're gonna say that I know. He knew the answer was yes, he literally does tweet everything in his mind. I don't think so. I think what he has inside him is far worse. The way he treats what what comes out of his mouth. Yeah. So back to Kashmir, right? If you're saying that a lot of the antagonism and the friction and the existential threat is because of Kashmir, how can I know it's a huge topic, a topic he touched upon in a previous podcast verbrugge, Psalm 21, even the whole article 370 thing was happening. But

how can you ever sit down in a meaningful way about Kashmir, when you know the realistic sentiment and outcome of the people of that region will either be bookstore independent and never India? Look, it only makes sense as you clearly stated, any sane

person looking at Kashmir demographically would simply say it belongs to Pakistan or an independent Kashmir. If the Kashmiris want tendance, then it should be an independent Kashmir because Kashmir is clearly don't want to be governed by India, let alone a BJP government which is which has imposed a curfew which it hasn't lifted still there. Unfortunately, this is a concentration camp and the world is sleeping again. The international community doesn't care about it. They don't care about the Rohingya. They didn't care about the Rohingya. They didn't care about what was happening to people in Syria, what's happening in Yemen.

In fact, they are inflating the fire of war, they are actually pushing pumping money in weapons into this region to inflate the conflict further, okay. So violence against Muslims is somehow unfortunately, you know, tacitly approved off, it's approved, which is fine.

Not enough action should be taken against this violence, but violence by Muslims, rightly or wrongly. Okay, we have both problems. Unfortunately, the top of the agenda is top of the agenda. The Muslims cannot be radical.

The Muslims have no right to defend themselves when they do, even the legitimate movements when they are actually fighting for the survival and example and resisting genocide. I'm talking about Rohingya Muslims. They were facing a genocide. Hundreds of 1000s of women have been raped. Who cares? in Bengali camps? Go and look at them. Okay, those women who have come as raped this, they're pregnant. Hundreds, I'm saying hundreds of 1000s. Okay. Go and watch Al Jazeera reports, BBC reports, BBC, which is seem to be relatively biased against Muslims, unfortunately. Okay. People think that and I don't know how true that is. Their propaganda is far more sophisticated is Yes,

absolutely. This is the most sophisticated propaganda outlet in the world. Absolutely. Absolutely. I agree. So, something needs to be done about Kashmir, Kashmir is a very, very disturbing case. And the world is sleeping on it. And there are two nuclear powers standing against each other. As Imran Khan warned in the United Nations,

you know, in when he did his speech, that it is not

a simple matter. You need to think about these two nuclear nuclear armed states. If they were to fight each other over this territory, what would happen to the world? These are not the bombs of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These are this is different technology. Okay, this is different technology, this is a completely different game altogether. Okay. The world needs to take it seriously, just like the Iran, US tensions need to be taken seriously. And everyone needs to come down. Because innocent people who die, I know what's going to happen, okay, America will come with this might with all the weapons and all the missiles to try new technology on the people of Iran, the people of Iraq

and the people of the region at large. and Iran will retaliate, who will who will die.

We don't want that. We don't want war, we want peace. We want peace in the world. That's why we hope that India comes to its senses. We hope, sanity, morality, and justice prevails in India, those people who are supporting and backing the Muslim cause and it's not the Muslim caused by the way this is a war This is a battle for the soul of India. These are the people are saying this is a battle for the soul of India is the survival of India would does India want to become a Nazi style? xenophobic, hateful, bigoted Miss already violent state is already defeated already? Currently, it is unfortunately, or does India want to become a progressive, enlightened,

peaceful, inclusive state inclusive state that leads the world in, in all these areas, if he can, if he carries on the way it is, if the trajectory continues the way it is, do you see the birth of resist Muslim resistance

will take two arms to protect their communities. And I hope it doesn't come to that I really I mean, I don't like to talk about war. I don't. I mean, I am not a pacifist, I believe in Islam, but not by tality happens everywhere. Because it because we see that there were pockets of resistance amongst the Rohingya, there were pockets of resistance amongst the resistance in Kashmir, Muslims will be the victims, if anything like that happens in India. And I really wish, I really hope it doesn't come to that. I really hope

that the current movement is successful. And this government is, you know, we get rid of this government and somehow, I hope it is voted out in the next election in India and someone who is sensible, comes to power so that we can resolve the Kashmir issue and then reduce xenophobia in this politics of hate and communalism. Right? I really hope that I really hope it doesn't come to that. But if it came to that, it's a big if then the Muslims will be the victims. Okay? Muslims are a minority, they are scattered. They are very weak, economically, most most of the poor, the very poor, and even the rich Muslims are very marginalized. They're very, very much cornered. So I hope

it doesn't come to that. Because Muslims will be the losers in this. Okay. But again, if someone's coming to your house, to you and

your daughter in front of your eyes, you have to defend your daughter. You have to defend your family. I hope it doesn't come to that. Yeah. Bringing the podcast to a kind of a close. You may you said something earlier in the podcast you said how Hindu were the martyrs? So I asked you how Islamic were the Mongols?

The Mongols with exception to it. Okay.

moguls were Islamic when it suited them with with again with the exception of orangette. Okay? Other moguls use Islam to their advantage, for example, upper used Islam to his advantage and then he abandoned Islam altogether. He apostatized and in fact he was then he jumped on this, but absolutely, there's a consensus that

absolutely there is historical consensus on this. What do you mean what I mean, he initiated a new religion called DNA ally. It was published on his coins. So if you look at his early coins from his, from the early part of his reign, I wish I could you even reminded me too,

but I think what what we can do in the future inshallah we can do a podcast, assessing your coins? Yes. Specifically, looking at some of the Islamic coins and history around them because there's a lot to talk about, with numismatic evidence. Okay. A lot. You will see theology, you will see politics in the coins Really? Absolutely. Because minting is a representative of the thinking of accuracy in the quality of silver. Where did the silver curve come from the messages on the coins, the propaganda, the name of the king? Why? The military element, aka coins minted on March, for example, there are mints on March, the armies on the move, and the coins are being minted in the

camp. And there's a man called Lucifer Corinne. Okay, that means the the military mint, which is on the move. Yeah. So those coins. So there's a lot to talk about coming back to the issue of how Islamic with the mobile mobile's. So Jahangir, obviously made Toba Akbar son and he

too large to a large extent he disowned his father's legacy and became a Muslim. Right. But how Muslim was he? He was a drunkard. He was into music. Okay, and

he was just just an Indian King. You know, when these bigots talk about morals being the embodiment of Islam, they don't know what they're talking about. Even the first mobile em from barber was into drinking. He can. He confessed to this in his barber nama in his memoir, personal memoir. homayoun was an opium addict. Okay, if one of the reasons people believe you died was because he did acknowledge what they were doing was sinful. Of course. Absolutely. They acknowledge this. And they were very mystical as well. They were they had Islam in them. No doubt you cannot take Islam away from any of them apart from Akbar, apart, they all had elements of Islam to the characters, all of

them. In fact, they had read over Islam, including Baba, look at his coins into Shahada on it. Okay, how am I doing the same thing, right? Akbar had Shahada and the name of the for Caleb's. On his coins, in terms of the governance then in terms of the governance for it, because they are governed, largely Hindu domain. They did not impose Islam, on the Hindus. Islam was never imposed when people said jizya was imposed on us. Yeah, that doesn't Of course, yes, yes, it was there. And they applied. It, abolished it, and orange, they reinstated it, it is absolutely insane.

Partly, yes, yes. They were there. Of course, during the Delhi Sultanate period collude, were partially implemented where it was possible. But the Mongols, the Mongols

is a very complicated situation. You see, most of them never got the chance to do it. Why? Because their history was full of so much turmoil. Baba only gone for four years, he couldn't, he could barely can consolidate his power, and my own government for 10 years. And then he was asked by his general shall sorry, he was very Islamic, very Islamic. So within the Muslim domain, they had Islamic principles governing them, okay. This these principles were not imposed on Hindus, Hindus were simply left alone, to govern by their own systems. And they were vessels. They were vessels to the morals, right. And they pay taxes to the Mughals like all other principalities, Muslim, the non

Muslim, when they became under the Mughal rule, they would pay taxes to the to the central Treasury. Right. So as far as the Mughal household was concerned, they were governed by a mixture of Islamic Turkic

and persianate. protocol. I don't know if that makes sense. Yes. So I understand that you will have to read some of the books because even the Ottomans Yeah, and we had this conversation not too long ago. Yeah. Have I done a kebab and the Ottomans also had a number of Turkic values and principles, which they didn't feel was in conflict with when we said Turkey, just to clarify for the audience, not modern day Turkey. Turkey Turkey means Central Asia, Central Asia protocol. Yeah. Yeah. So there were certain obviously tribalistic values and principles and that they didn't feel was in conflict with their conception of Islam. So they kept those things as part of their systems in the same way

in which were nominally above the law and when they took over

the lands of punishing certain systems which they kept is in agreement with that. Yes. I mean one example in the case of the Ottomans is the strangling of all the siblings Yeah, the fratricide yet Frederick Frederick side element of the Ottoman, but the owner might justify that by saying that the death of one Prince is better than the death because they what they were they were actually facing devastation a lot of these princes would completely devastate the state fighting for now that policy was born out of the Ottoman interregnum where Sultan Murat three sons went to war with each other he destroyed the pastor after the death of budget yes well done by using his three sons bought each

other and then automatically Yeah, Ottoman Empire nearly crumble so Omar came and then they said the look it's actually better to kill respective princes but later on later on, it was they realized the band Yeah. Then they used imprisonment, exile or imprisonment as a better option. But this option was absolutely barbaric, of course, and it came from the Turks rather than Islam. They tried to Islamic Islamic, they failed. Okay. Even they found I mean, as barbaric or as uncivilized by our standards, those times were even they had, you know, problems with this Hold on. How do we rationalize this behavior fratricide, but in the case of the mogul, who also followed Turkic system,

it was originally Turkey.

Yeah, taco Persian. They also had concerns about water succession. Because when the Emperor would die, the sons would fight it out. They would have to, and they had this slogan, this principle, they lived by all the mobile princes, each Prince was an establishment in his in himself, you know, some of the Mughal princes, the provinces, the government, we're larger than Pakistan and Bangladesh put together today. For example, one mobile Prince would be given Gujarat is a huge region, another one would be given that can that can is all of South India, then one would be the governor of Bengal is huge territory, Asian autonomous rulers have is they were semi autonomous, they answered back to the

Emperor in Delhi or ogra. Okay. And they would have to obey the Emperor. And if they rebelled against the Emperor, the Emperor would muster his might an army he would. And amazingly

you see Hindu generals, in the political and the military landscape of the Mughal Empire, all the way, they are always present. They are never marginalized. They are never basically discriminated against in the sense that, oh, you're a Hindu, you cannot get involved enough. I know, there were Hindu rajas with their own armies, who join join the Mughal cause. And they were they were in some cases, they were more loyal to the Mughals in the Mughals themselves, because a Mughal Prince is fighting against father and who's fighting the prince, the Hindus, the Hindu kings, or rajpoot, Hindu kings fighting the Mughal Prince for the Mughal Emperor. And he's losing his own in the Hindu

men to keep the Emperor on throne. These things are not known, unfortunately to the masses, they are brainwashed, they're conditioned. This is why history, real history has to be taught. And you know, historians are going through a lot a lot of trouble in India. True historians, objective historians, they can't even speak their mind in India anymore. Okay, Audrey trash. The lady who has written this recent book on orangey bottom gear and introduction to orange life. Orange zip

is a very good book is a must read for the Muslims of India in particular and the Muslims of the world at large because our exam is somewhat more like someone who's actually consistently now of late being demonized, yes, as an ISIS not even now not I mean, demonization of orange, they've started during the British period, but it's happening a lot now. And that is revived in that historical tradition, which was very bad. He was radical use extreme. He implemented Sharia law, the oppressed Hindus did it. When did this narrative come about? Is the British period, the colonial period, the British, particularly specific, specifically, systematically created this narrative to

divide the Muslims and the Hindus. So to get the Hindus to hate the Muslim past of India, they created villains like orange zip and people thought, okay, are two of our heroes? Yes, absolutely now, and then the Muslims inflated the legacies to counter that as a reaction to the other reaction to that, but the truth is in the middle, the truth in the middle, the British narrative Unfortunately, the colonial British narrative was adopted some early 20th century historians in India such as such as juggernaut Sarkar, okay, he upheld that narrative of Oregon saves barbarity and his, his extremism and all that. Okay. And then later on the BJP

government adopted that narrative

But the historians, the real historians, people, like for example, you know,

moody juror, for example, people like Richard Eaton. Okay, FF Richard. Okay. Order truck manies Farooqi, okay? And,

you know, a fun hobby all these people, major Indian historians who have written on the history of India and talking about Indian as well as Western historians. They are all unanimous on one point that the BJP government's narrative of history is redundant. It is a historical, it is not history, it is bigotry, that they are all unanimous on this. All major series historians, they don't see history in black and white. History has trends. It has nuances, which bigotry and prejudice fails to detect, unfortunately. So for this reason, we must study the history of the models more carefully. And they were far more complex than one may think today. Are you saying are you then saying that for

the Mughals, the attempt to perhaps Islam eyes or implement Shetty and implement them was far more difficult? Because they were a minority always amongst a majority Hindu state sorry, repeat the question would you say what would you then suggest that the Ottomans were successful because for all their faults and shortcomings, and when I whenever I discuss a topic of history or articles or lectures, I always say that never do Muslims or should mostly present our civilizations as utopia Would you agree 100% because you once you do that, yeah, there will be so many instances where it was not a utopia, absolutely. Internal war, you know, unjust, we must talk about all the atrocities

committed by some of the Muslim kings because they happen. What we can talk about is the general pattern of the Muslim civilization. Exactly. Okay. Comparatively, it was a lens by patterns and themes. Yeah. an aspiration to rule by set the principles of patronage of

civilized pastimes, for example, Muslim kings in India repeatedly, you know, provided patronage to art caligraphy scientific advancement,

copying of manuscripts, you know, all sorts of things, a monuments, architecture, okay. Some of the most beautiful monuments in India are Muslim, Muslim monuments, you know, commoner is an epitome of Islamic art. Again, I think historians would even testify that whether it is Mughal India or whether it's a basket backdoored or made yet under loose, there was always an attempt to contribute and not only but to uplift the intellectual standards of humanity, absolutely. 100% that was the general pattern of the Muslim soul. Okay. But that said, the Ottomans from easily from late to mid 15th century, all the way up to Hollywood means time there is an entire archive in Turkey, where there

was a strong emphasis in ruling by Islam ruling by Hanafi

Fiqh and his codification of Sharia, etc, etc, right. And there was a massive emphasis in the Ottoman rulers, you know, re exerting themselves as a whole of all of the Islamic domains, etc, etc. You said to me off camera a couple of days ago that that journey was starkly different for the Mughals because of the demographic reality. Absolutely. Absolutely. mobiles were governing a completely different world to the Ottomans. The Ottomans, were predominantly ruling

either mostly either Muslim, the Muslims or Christians in Asia, for example, Asia Minor, is predominantly Muslim. By the time Ottomans come to power. Asia Minor is already close enough Africa was lost. The Byzantines lost Asia Minor in the 11th century. Okay. The Battle of massacred yeah 1071 of the Celtics won the battle and Byzantines had to abandon you as a miner. So by the time Ottomans come to power in 1299, if you want to put your age of minor guys we talk about modern day and will Anatole Anatolian Anatolia, modern day Turkey, the landmass of Turkey right? Because people think turkeys Istanbul No, it's an embolus.

Even the European side Exactly. So this was already Muslim. Right? So Ottomans were predominantly governing a Muslim domain where it was needed for them to implement Islam. Okay. But with the Mughals, Mughals were governing

and an immense landmass which is which was predominantly Hindu. So the the Mughals have Muslims have always been a minority in this domain the government for nearly a nearly a century so what made Aurangzeb Rahim Allah unique to all of the Mughal Sultan's okay what? Orange zabe did not enforce Islam on the Hindus This is a huge misconception he introduced it and not forcefully convert anyone This is a lie again peddled by BJP in spite.

You know

pseudo historians or pseudo intellectuals? Okay, Oren zabe, did not have a policy to force Islam on anyone. He did impose jizya. Okay, which in my opinion was not pragmatic for him to do that, okay, that caused problems. But why did he do that historians discuss it, he did that to punish the rajputs for the rebellions. Because the rajputs they started to rebel against orangette. At that time, they found him to be weak. He was involved in the south, fighting

some, some of the I mean, before I mean, orange, they moved to the south in the 80s 1680s. jizya was imposed in 1676. Right, and it was done as a response to some of the Rajput rebellions in the north as a form of punishment. He did this, okay. But he didn't want to convert the Hindus to a slum, but he did have an issue, but he didn't actually funded temples. Did you know that? I didn't know. Yeah, from the state Treasury. There are four months, okay. Okay. That's pretty crazy. It's online. Okay, if you google orange funding temples, you will go to a website where you will see Persian documents, original documents were refunded the repair or the restoration of temples.

And he did not I mean, when people say he was out to demolish temples, again, this is another lie, a misunderstood misrepresentation of history. He didn't if you wanted to demolish all the time was in his domain, there would be no template but he did seek to kind of minimize or at least abolish things like the proliferation of drinking opium, music, public bike bathing, and within the Muslim domain within Muslim market, this has to be clarified people think this all over the world with all the Hindus we're still into In fact, a scholar she has written an article on suppression of music during the reign of Warren's he has argued to the contrary, music became more of an you know, it

became more prominent as a pastime during the reign of orange zaev than ever before. Why? Because more scholars, more musicians, more people were getting involved in music, during the reign of orange one one of the incidents is cited very often to paint on zaev as a as an enemy of music in India, okay, he couldn't suppress music.

Without within the Hindu community, Hindus love music. So he said these things he implemented in Muslim demand within the Muslim domain, okay, none of this shenanigans in his court basically bowing to the Emperor, they call it coordination basically about to the Emperor and you know, wave your hand three times a abolished all that, that you do not bow to anyone other than Allah. Okay? He lived a very simple life. This is testified to by European travelers who saw him in his simplicity. His people like Bernier people, like mannucci, aki was a physician at an Italian physician who was working within the mobile court at the time. People like Kevin as well, we have European travelers

who have traveled through the mobile world at the time, and they were completely blown away by the might and the splendor of the Mughal Empire. The Europeans at the time, were so

shocked at the splendor of the Mughal Empire, that they had to come back and they had to tell the people, you don't know what you're losing.

You need to trade with India. So that you can and then the Dutch East India Company, and the British East India Company, and then lo and behold, that's another history for to see what happened. After that. You must read William Dalrymple's, the Anunnaki, his new book, very, very powerful book, very important.

Although he

said negative negative things about orangevale, I'm giving this book for political reasons, because he lives in India and he wants to stay in India. So we can give him the benefit of the doubt that he was doing it for, for his safety and well being in India, because Audrey truck, who was also an historian, and she has written this book on orange zip, she actually, you know, picked on this particular issue. But why did you follow that redundant narrative on orange tape in your book, and Aki which is well researched otherwise, but when it comes to orange zip, you're painting him as a villain. Why is that and it is clear that he did that to to conclude on this specific issue. If we

were to have a comparative look at the Mughal Empire, and the Ottoman Empire and both Dola on both states, I mean, look at the way in which they governed by the rules in which they governed in which they

implemented both in the lands and domains but it was predominant non Muslim and Muslim. Would it be fair to say, for whatever contextual reasons and nuances that the Ottomans, their, their governance was far more Islamic than that, I would say all

Ottomans were more islamically driven then the Mongols were, I would say that I would accept that you know why because the Ottomans are facing a completely different reality that expansion was into, at that time.

non Muslim territory, and they justified they justified the expansion by using Islamic literature. And we stood outside they had to adopt this Islamic identity okay to instill the passion within the forces, okay. In India, that wasn't the case, because Indian forces are Indian armies are far more mixed than in the Ottoman. So Indian, the Mughals are facing a completely different reality. So perhaps it is not fair to compare the two. The both played immensely important role in the making of the Islamic civilization globally and a lot of similarities. A lot of similarities are called Persian heritage. They were both for hanafy Yes, they were both would identify themselves even more

through the Russian River. Yeah, they are both concerned and to be inclined, inclined, very much

similarities, absolutely, absolutely a lot of similarities. They were far apart from each other geographically, but at the same time, they both dynasties are hugely important. And I begged them Muslims to make a bed for the Muslims to wake up, because please wake up because many of the challenges are relevant to our our situations today and please study to take inspiration from the legacies that positive legacies and, and, and disown their mistakes completely not repeat them. Because they made many mistakes.

They did many things that we cannot own today, we cannot say okay, these things are right. I mean,

so we have to wake up to our history, take lessons from the legacies, and take inspiration at the same time, a man by sokola hair,

for your presence for your contribution for today's podcast, I find it very beneficial. It's always a pleasure to discuss history, especially with you.

Every Blood Brothers podcast ends by giving three options to our guests. It was inspired by the early call of the the Sahaba. And those who used to go to new land and say,

accept Islam pay the jizya is war. Obviously we don't do that without Muslim guests. And I don't think things could be applied on a podcast in that way. But what we tend to tell those times

we may see those times again, you don't know maybe not in our lifetime. We may see those times. Again, don't worry about the political correctness here. But usually I offer an arm wrestle or a fumble. Or you have to try some bond with me.

Okay, I'll let you choose for the pan.

I would rather not arm wrestle. What do you think you'd be here? No, I think I am not what was that the Baku? No, no, I hope? I hope not. What would it

look like? It looked is beechina and his leaf is Cora but it's not the tobacco this is this is to revive the legacy of the moguls of India.

Brothers and sisters soccer for tuning in. Please share this video Like the video leave a comment for our viewers from North America subscribe to the madman Luke's channel. And until next time.

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