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Historic Strands of Islam in India – Speakers Corner

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Adnan Rashid

Channel: Adnan Rashid

Episode Notes

Episode Transcript

© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.


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hamdulillah your sauna it was more an hour or so only.

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As long as I hope everyone is doing well today, we will be discussing indo Pakistan or Islamic India, the history there of current trends, religious movements, and so on. And we have with us as a distinguished expert in the field of style, Adnan Rashid, how're you doing brother? Callahan gorilla, thank you so much for having me. Allah bless you. And you too. Now I've taken this from your Twitter feed. Right? So you're a historian numismatist traveler, human rights activist, author, supporter of peace and justice, and a bibliophile. So a nice eclectic mix of interests there. So let's just get right into it. I mean, we'll maybe start with something current before we get back

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into history as it were. The reason for the West discontent recently, anyway, is Afghanistan. Afghanistan captured everyone's attention with the Taliban takeover and they generally are largely espouse a particular religious school, which is Indian in origin right there obviously outside of South Asia, more Central Asia, a historic region of Hassan now known as Afghanistan, but they have adopted to a greater or lesser extent and Indian strand or Indian religious movement, which we know as Deobandi ism and the advent of course, is a city or town located 1000 miles east in northern India. So the first question would be who or what is the urbanism?

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Okay, for smaller Hungarian, thank you for that question. Their Bond was a school that was established in India, in northern India.

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in Uttar Pradesh, in the province of Uttar Pradesh, which is the largest province of India currently, in terms of population at least. And this was a small village called the urban near the city of Saharanpur. Lauren pore is a very well known city in India, and they want was in close vicinity. So, they will bond as a school.

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For the Hanafi school of thought the scholars got together, they saw the need, that they need to establish a school to educate the masses, because the masses are very ignorant about Islam and Islamic sciences. And that was causing many, many problems. In fact, one of the reasons why the school was established was that there was an independence movement going on. And a lot of people a lot of a lot of local people misunderstood the Islamic

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rulings on the matter of independence and resisting occupation, and even struggling for independence and how to do it, who leads it and dependence on the British sorry, right from the British. Exactly independence from the British rule in India, because the British ruling at the time, and this school was established if I'm not mistaken in 1863 by

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a group of scholars who came from the Hanafi school of thought and they had studied under the students of Sharia law gallery, for example. Sure, sorry, not showing the lush Abdulaziz galleries, grants and they were they were they were students of childhood diseases grandson.

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So this is a very interesting side of Indian Islam, which not many people know that prior to 1850, I would say

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the school of the urban did not exist. The Barelvi school of thought did not exist, at least by name, at least by name, right. And the school of Hadith was not pronounced. It wasn't announced as a school of thought. So before 1850 Muslims are simply Muslims, without specifically prescribing to one school of thought. So the Obon was established after 1850s which was in 1863. Even the school of analogies was announced later on in the latter half of the 19th century, when scholars like NAWAPA de casa con scholars like Shaq, Mazar Hashanah, Taylor telawi, and there are other scholars like Shaq

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or same in masa and Zarya, Iranian that come from Yemen, to teach Hadith in Bhopal scholars like these, they started to pronounce they started to actually,

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you know, they started to express

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the following of a, let's say, new school of thought in India, if you want to call it that, it wasn't a new school of thought.

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Because inspiration came from people like your mom Shaka, Annie and before that even Tamia, and was able to claim his dissent, spiritual dissent from the south, right. So the school the thought is not new. But in India, as a group of people as an organized school of thought this was the initial stage, right latter half of the 19th century, many people claim Chava EULA had already expressed views supporting the Aravalli school and his grandson scheisse. Malaysia, he was also that view, but it wasn't really announced publicly that there is a new school in India, of Islam or other Hadith. Having said that, coming back to the one for the one school of thought or establish, to educate the

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masses, and it is said that the madrasa initially was put together under a tree, there was a tree in Durban, in the village of Durban. And teachers started to teach the students under the tree. And then the tree basically became the central point of

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Islamic learning. Then it grew

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in magnitude, in all,

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on all levels, and then a building was established, and slowly and steadily, it became an institution of higher learning. Today, the Avant is a huge university in India. And

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it's set out scholars

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for the last 100 years in two different parts of the world, in particular, Pakistan and Bangladesh, because scholars when they qualified from the school, they spread out in places like Bangladesh, Pakistan, even as far as South Africa, for these scholars then establish their own seminaries in their respective areas. And then many students flocked to the seminaries, and they took back the same school of thought, or same way of thinking, but let's say same mother with them to the area. So with regards to what's happening in Afghanistan, these people call Taliban. They actually a lot of them studied in Pakistan inboxed I knew seminaries that prescribe to the one school of thought.

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So I mean, that's peculiar in the sense that the direction of travel of Islam generally in the subcontinent has been the opposite direction right from Afghanistan, through the various passes, Khyber Pass, go Gamal Boland pass etc, in what the British called anyway, NWFP NorthWest Frontier Province are now I think he's got a new name like bassoon Well, or something province or something. So it was always like west to east in terms of post on my ad, we will get to them soon enough. So how's it that in this case with the urbanism, it went east west? Why would they, let's say, a largely baktun, let alone well as it's largely Pakhtoon, right? The students of Afghanistan, why

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would they adopt Islam from those who may be psychologically they're considered to be the recipients of the learning as opposed to the other way around? You see, one of the biggest reasons is conflict. During the war, the Afghan war.

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institutions had been destroyed. There were a lot of immigrants to Pakistan, from Afghanistan. And due to the war, it wasn't possible to run institutions and educate students, so a lot of Mohabbatein. In Pakistan, immigrants or migrants in Pakistan, they had no choice but to send their children to schools. Now, they couldn't send their children to private school or expensive schools or even government schools, because of the refugee status. They started to send the schools to these modalities that readily basically took the students into the arms and educated them and they ran into 1000s. So the number of students studying in Pakistani institutions run by the Deobandi school

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of thought or the only scholars who were directly inspired by the 1d scholars from India.

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There is no direct link between the Avant refugees and the Avant students of the school of the urban and the School of the urban in India, there is no direct link, because these immigrants are not allowed to go to India to study. So they remained in Pakistan and they studied in institutions, like Haqqani institution called you know,

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have cornea.

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It is named after a person who was a chef and he established this institution called a cornea in Accra Khattak aquatic is a place near shower in Pakistan. And this is where these have gone students were studying and later on, they went back to awareness on the launch the movement to

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liberate of understanding from warlords and so and so. So this is the, the recent

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reason as to why

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the traverse knowledge traveled westwards rather than it coming eastwards. Initially, in the early stages of Islam in India, of course, there were hardly any Muslims in India, so many scholars actually came from the Central Asian region. Now,

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not many people know this, that India initially was taken by the Arabs, of course, from the southern territory called Sindh and South Punjab, so many Arabs had made inroads into the sin territory of Pakistan, and then southern Punjab as far as Bhutan. So many Arab dynasties were established at that time. First the OMA years then the baskets came and then after that basket, the Smiley's appeared somehow and then the rest of its from the north invaded to basically do away with the Smiley's. So this is very dynamic history. So, initially when the Arabs brought Islam with them, they brought their own version of Islam. In fact, some scholars state that the first school of thought to have

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been established in the Indian subcontinent was led by the school of thought in a city called Man surah. When surah was in Sindh, current day, Pakistan, somewhere near Karachi. The exact site is currently unfortunately, unknown. There are some estimates there are some opinions that such and such site may be Missoura. But Missoura, the city monsoon has been since last, it was the capital of the Arabs in Sindh and the first school of thought that was established in

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let's say, the Indian Territory wars, the VA hurry school of thought, which is pretty much very similar to the Al Hadi school of thought, right? This is very much testified to by travelers who traveled to Mathura at that time, early travelers, and they are testified that people who live in matura, or in these Arab cities have sinned. They speak the Iraqi dialect of Arabic, and they are following the viry school of thought. In other words, yeah, sorry. Yes, I was gonna say, Yeah, you had to in the early formative years or decades, let's say, of Islam, Linda, you have basically to our Arabic speaking principles is the new admin Surah which was founded by how shall we describe me

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a career rebel Mansoor been Jim hood, and in Multan was also an art principality. And, of course, they came with the Arab trendy, as you mentioned, the bunny Omiya, who will vary anywhere. And so the Hurriya is a kind of expression of that less it's a flavor Judas butyl flavor of that, as opposed to a cradle the cradle was with the exception of one soup in jumbo, the Creed itself was, was what now I guess, I learned how to deal with with back project, right. And so, you know, we're of the people of the video. And then, and then I guess that's what happens, right? When you have an like you have from Benny, the mayor's go to the boss, it's when you have that tumultuous form of a

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better term revolution, then you're Utah you tend not to be concerned so much with the periphery, you tend to want to consolidate the power base which is obviously in Iraq or Syria to Iraq. So the ends kind of fly away so I have C span became independent on my own kingdom and then India or Sindh kind of broke off the opposite didn't really give it too much time and as you said, the parameter the Smiley's to cover and then you had as you mentioned, we get into this now I guess more you had a non Arab adventurous coming from from the North.

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The guys nevets Indian Mamelukes law these and sun and is sultanates, all the way to the, the moguls so, of course, this is something quite significantly different only they're not Arabs, but also they don't share that one universal or global caliphate type of background, they kind of semi or independent or fully independent, new empires. So what So give us a brief overview then of these post Umayyad

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Turkic Persian manga wherever they were new dynasties, just as an overview that we can maybe get into more details. Basically, I was explaining that firstly, Arabs came in the Arabs ruled nearly for three 300 years. And then the Arab rule declined and the Smiley's had established a base in the city of Milan, which is in southern Punjab. And then, so done. Muhammad was NaVi, who was the ruler of Ghana, in Afghanistan. He basically wanted to

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somehow connect

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or completely decimate the smiley presence in India. And the inspiration definitely came from Baghdad because the cave had already heard about a smiley stronghold in India, like there was one in German. And by the time the Fatimids are also in power in Egypt, so the Smiley's are spreading all over the world with the dollar. So, So Todd Muhammad was not we basically decided to invade India, partly due to the Smiley's and partly to attack the the Temple of Psalm not because there was a lot of money there. There was a lot of more than a lot of people think that Moses maybe was after the destruction of the Hindu religion. He wasn't, he was simply interested in the money in that temple,

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like all kings would be and this whole Indian phenomenon, many Indian kings would invade territories and the first thing they would do is to go to temple and loot the loot the treasure. So the treasure would be kept at the temple. That's why many scholars have highlighted this is why mosques are not attacked because there was no money kept in mosques, right. But in temples, they were vaults. They were with, you know, basements, full of gold and silver, basically offerings given by the devotees, to the temple and to the idol. And for those offerings are kept by the temple priests in a specific area within the temple. That's why temples were targets of

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aggression of different conquest. So Miko does not we basically he took the treasure on the temple. Obviously, he was a king in various territories to gain strength and influence. He was by the way his establishment is established on the Shafi. My mood was not be and his establishment Shafi because he himself was a vessel of the 70s 70s were a central Asian dynasty, representing the house of Abbas Manuel boss. It wasn't a Basset dynasty, in the fourth century of Islam, the peak was in the fourth century of Islam from 300 to 400. Right now, it was in the three hundreds, or within the three hundreds, when the summit started to lose the influence and people like

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a lot again, was a slave vessel of the summit eg announced his independence or semi independence. Right? Then came so book so book, again, the father of mu ghaznavi. And then my boo. So Muhammad became a very ambitious man, he wanted to extend or expand his territory. By the way up to this point, the Hindu dynasties were ruling up to cobble the land up to Cabo within the Indian Territory, or let's say the Afghan territory was occupied by an Indian dynasty, right. So it was Mahmoud who ousted this dynasty and brought this dynasty back to power and then drove this particular dynasty away from the shower. They were the names of the kings have forgotten the names of the King booty

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they basically called Hindu Shai.

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This dynasty is called Hindu Shahi dynasty, you can still find the coins lying around with the bowl on one side and a night on the horse on the other side. These are very common coins you can still find in this region. These are called the Hindu Shai their homes, right? So Muhammad was the we basically ousted the Hindu dynasty Hindu Shahi dynasty from this region, and then he made his way to Matan. And he conquered madonn He established His

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foothold in Bhutan and then he also established the first powerhouse of Islam in Northern India and that was Lahore not daily. A lot of people think it was daily. No, it was Lahore. Lahore was named Muhammad poor. And many scholars flocked to Lahore taught Hadith taught fake and Lahore was essentially a Shafi hub. It was a Shafi city, right? So the rest of it kept

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the city of Lahore for nearly, let's say, 200 years, until the Gaza weeds sorry, until the hordes have already defeated the Gaza weeds within Afghanistan. And all the territory within India also came to the audit. And this is a very crude summary I'm giving to you very quickly because why many to do too many deep, far too many details. And there was a lot of back and forth of the cities as well. It is occupied and reoccupied and occupied reoccupied. So the rest of the weeds and the orange were Loggerhead loggerheads and then they eventually

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basically you guys know we'd kind of disappeared from the scene and God came to power. So photon was the dean Mohammed bizarre, Mohammed bin Salman, also known as

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Sultan Java bean glory was the man who took the city of Delhi or this territory from the Hindu ruler at the time. Prithvi Raj Jo Han, who was the Rajput ruler of this territory. So this territory was conquered from him as a result of the Battle of terrain, which took place in 1192. This is the same time when the Crusades are taking place in the Middle East and so cancel all the UB is fighting the Crusaders right. So Tom Szabo, Dean barrio Muhammad in some Glory, he takes this territory.

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In a second attempt, he had made many attempts in fact in in the first battle of trying, he was captured by the same ruler but released and then he came back to fight again and he conquered this territory and the city of Delhi was established on his way back to Afghanistan.

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So Don, moister Deen Mohammed bin Sam Cody was assassinated in his tent in the current re the current a territory of Pakistan. And then one of his slaves called Koto, Dean Aibak, came to power and established a power house in Delhi. This was the first establishment of an Islamic dynasty in Northern India on this scale, and it only grew in power and influence due to the Mongol invasions. Now you may be thinking, how is that possible? What did the Mongol Mongols created the Indian civilization of Islam? A lot of people don't know this. It was the moguls who basically, how can I put it Mongo to the catalyst of what became the daily CELTA?

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Yeah, did things happen because famously chased the son of the quarrelsome Shah Muhammad across the Indus and decided he wouldn't give cheers. And he was very much impressed with the bravery and the tenacity of that young prince. And the Mongols basically gave up all subsequent attempts. They maybe tried once or twice, but they thought, and this is something you know, Jenny, in terms of public perception, right, India is considered like a more submissive nation, let's say compared to

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Arab and Turkey tamango. Certainly, yet the Indians were able to defeat

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you know, this, this juggernaut that had been trailblazing across the world and smashed on many other empires. So, that is quite a unique I mean, other Muslims in you know, in the Volta Region and elsewhere did and of course, MC the Mamluks did check the Mongols book persistently and consistently, it was the Indian Muslims who are real pain for them and would not allow them to expand. Although when it came to Timor, that's a different. I would say this was mainly due to the leadership the leadership was mainly Muslim. And of course there were Hindus also fighting alongside but the leadership was mainly Muslim that fought the Mongols and the Mongols were kept at bay. But

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the point I was making initially was the the coming of the school of thought. So when the Arab initially came the Atari school or let's say the Bahari school, later on, as it was called by some travelers, and then later on the Shafi school came with the the

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establishment. So Lahore was a Shafi cityfibre Move on okay. How did the Hanafi school of thought come to India the pressure, so when

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when could Medina book took power after him came another small town called input mesh, photon shamsudeen into measure was also a slave, a central Asian slave who had been bought from slave markets, and he became the coupon the king himself, right? So at this time when Sultan il took mesh was ruling in 1219. Gang is con attack the quadrum Shah territory, okay, and the details are far too long for me to discuss, because I've done a lecture on the Mongolian vision system a YouTube channel. You can watch it there. But the cut the long story short, again, yes, Khan, his invasion caused a mass

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exodus of people, people, they basically started to leave their homelands to for safety. Again, guest cons army was massacring, pillaging, destroying, burning, decimating anything that came in their way. Even animals were not spared. Gang is gone.

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Basically

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took very few slaves of very few prisoners of war. Rather, he would tell his army to terrorize the masses so that they cannot resist or they don't even think of resisting. And for the next, let's say eight years, gang guess Khan went on a killing spree until he himself died in 1227. And then, after him, his children, the hands of the Mongols that continue

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this onslaught going as far as Syria, and even

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European Eastern European territory, even close to Western Europe. And as far as Japan and India was attacked many times, okay, even gang is calm himself pursued the son of quadrum Shah, all the way up to the Indus River within the Indian territory. So this was a fascinating, how can I put it?

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Episode in human history, but all of the Central Asian immigrants who were running for their lives, they took refuge in Delhi, okay, they give to a Weinstein and then you'll want to stand was conquered by the Mongols, and then they were driven further southwards, and they found refuge in the city of Derry. And that's why daily became a huge powerhouse of the Muslims, a lot of artists, a lot of scholars, a lot of calligraphers, a lot of fires, a lot of points, a lot of intellectual ended up. So basically, you can say, the cream of the crop, the cream of the crop from Central Asia, ended up in Delhi. So all of these people were Hanafy Central Asian scholars who have been since the

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Ambassade period, because Hanafi core that are established over them to run their affairs during a basket period. Because Barnabas had Hanafi scholars, as they're called out, for example, cardio will use who was one of the students more money by all by money if I had refused to be the body of almanzora. But later on how Africa that were established, to run the affairs of societies in Central Asia and other territories. So, people had since been Hanafi by persuasion, so, a lot of these Hanafi scholars, the scholars of Mao, or the scholars of transec, Sonia, they were all predominantly Hanafi. So, they brought the school of thought with them to Delhi, and lo and behold, we had the

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head of the school of thought established in India. And since then, India predominantly has been one of the even though there are some pockets of Shafi school of thought in India, on the western chord because of cost on the on the western coast, because a lot of these people whose Yemenis originally they were Yemeni travelers and traders, so they had brought Islam with them to the western coast of India, the cost of Malabar and all that, right. So this is in a summary how dynamic Islam more than Islam story is in India, you know, when it comes to schools of thought, how schools of thought came to be established in the Indian subcontinent. And later on, of course, many movements came,

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you know, that challenged view some of its own things, as some of us some of the Indians and also the Hanafi school authorities, none of us were challenged by the scholars of Hadith, and discontinued. So the story of Islam in India is very dynamic when it comes to schools of thought. Indeed, let's

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get into some of the details of some of this in terms of Ethan or the relief movement. Was it contiguous from the earliest time since the mansehra

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the Principality or is that been times when you may enter diaries? Or was it something a later import? As you mentioned Kokanee and and in his to his times in the m&e, revivalist movement, I would argue other Hadith strictly speaking, not the title itself, not the title itself, but the reality of the other hobbies, what the either of these proclaim, and what they claim to follow? What do they follow, they claim that they follow the Quran, according to the farm of the earliest generations, right? And they follow the Sunnah according to the farm, according to the understanding of the earliest generations of Islam. And if this is what the reality of the other hadith is, and it

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pretty much is, to my knowledge, then, in that case, other Hadith the school of honor this the reality of it, not the name of it, the reality of it, is the first version of Islam to appear in in the Indian subcontinent. It is the first version with the Arabs, because the Arabs are neither Shafi nor humbly nor Hanafi nor Maliki, okay, these Arabs, who came to the Indian subcontinent with Mohammed bin Qasim, and later on with other Ommaya governance, they did not follow any of these schools of thought. So the question is, how are they praying? How are they praying? They were simply praying by looking looking at the example of the Sahaba because they were very close to the time of

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the sahaba. In fact, when Mohammed bin Qasim came to India, in 92, Hijiri companions of the Prophet are alive. Actually, they were in Iraq. Some of them yeah, some of them were in Iraq. I must been Malik was in Iraq. Right. So I'm pretty sure when Mohammed bin Qasim might have left India

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For sorry, left Iraq had just been used have sent that particular expedition to India, for whatever reason, reasons are always disputed. And there are no authentic sources on the reasons. But there were some reasons for this invasion, whereby 5000 men were sent with Muhammad Qasim to take some of the land of India or possibilities some people lesson as some reports. Yeah. As opposed to some some pirates who had hijacked Muslim shape and there were people there so jarred me use of 76 million in funding. I mean, these are some reports, but there is no way to authenticate them. So these first Muslims when they came to sin, with Muhammad Qasim, the question is what version of Islam and the

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volume and when when there was no school of thought around? You know, Imam Abu Hanifa Malala at the time was 12 years old. He was a 12 or 12 year old child.

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An Imam Malik would be two years old. Actually, no, Imam Malik isn't even born yet. Imam Malik was born in 94. He and Muhammad Qasim came to India in 92 Eg so the only Imam that was alive was Imam Abu Hanifah Rahmatullah he was trolled at the time. So what version of Islam was these people following? They were simply following Quran and Sunnah. You know, I'm gonna put this in inverted commas, the Quran and the Sunnah. In other words, they were following whatever they had learned from the sahaba. Clearly the Sahaba were alive, or the students of the Sahaba tatami in the earliest generations of Islam. And this is what they were practicing in India. Right? And they were not

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without knowledge. These people were very sharp, very, very intelligent, intelligent enough to occupy a territory and run a government. How did they run this government? How were they running the daily affairs, according to the rules of Islam, they were following the understanding of the sahaba. And the terrain, of course, they lacked

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some knowledge because Hadith literature had still, you know, not been collected, it was spread all over the Islamic empire, they were on the scene, or they were teachers, who are teaching her this in Damascus, in Yemen, in other territories, for example. So I'm not saying these people were completely fully educated in Islam. So that version of Islam is what the school of thought proclaims today with more information at their disposal. When I say mentioned, I mean, Hadith literature was authenticated and collected later on, in the second in the third century of Islam. Okay, and 100 of the school today, not only has that early knowledge, but even this later knowledge that was

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collected for them,

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or for them to follow. So this is how Islam I believe, came to India with that particular understanding later on, then, of course, schools of thought were established, and they were spread they were disseminated throughout the Muslim civilization. That's why there was no leads were Shafi Jaffe school of thought is also very close to the so called Salafi school of thought, and the other these are our three way of thinking, right? And then came the Hanafi school of art with the scholars of Marana or the scholars of Central Asia, who had emigrated to India due to the Mongol invasions. So this is the chronology. I mean,

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I don't think anyone any reasonable person will dispute the fact that right up until whose it easy, it's been really the 13th of 12, maybe 12. On my ruler, you had like a one creed throughout the then universal Islamic empire only then you had, you know the things called Remote Zealand and returned to a variaty somewhere. But the question is, since that establishment in send in India of that archetypal Islam, and then you have the movement, let's say, let's do organization today. Is there a link in terms of scholarship? Or is it my question? Is there a link between the earliest entry of Islam and today's quote unquote, you know, pure Quran and Sunnah understanding, non valid, random

00:34:14--> 00:34:18

opposition stunning, or is it something that was later rediscovered?

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It was I in my opinion, it was rediscovered later on. There is no continuous link between the early Arab Islam that was brought to the Indian continent, subcontinent.

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And what happened later on in the 19th century or the 18th century, there is no direct link. The inspiration for the later reawakening of the School of Hadith Asri creed in the Indian subcontinent came from the Hejaz region, not from the Arab legacy insane right. The Arab League in the was completely How can I put it last? Okay for centuries. I mean,

00:35:00--> 00:35:47

Until a very long up to I mean, as late as let's say the 20th century it wasn't even known which governors ruled the Arab synth, right. Some of the names of the Omega governors only came to knowledge or came to light due to the coins that were discovered right in. So names will be on coins, right and of course there are brief references to these governors in books like the total burden of Imam Imam Polidori and all that you can find mention of these governors but there will be no other way to verify that information. So coins were discovered and on the on the coins the names of these governors such as hakobyan Awana, for example, the main bins Okay, Solomon bin Hamad bin

00:35:47--> 00:36:11

Qasim sorry ombre ombre bin Mohammed bin Qasim, who was also a governor of St. For some time he was a son of Muhammad Qasim during the Omega period, the coins have been discovered, right. But there is no direct link between the Arabs early Arabs spiritually or in terms of knowledge transmission with the later Muslims in the 18th century in the 19th century who proclaimed

00:36:13--> 00:36:49

the school of Hadith. So inspiration came this time in the 18th century and 19th century, directly from Hijaz and places like Yemen. From Hijaz, it was brought by shower Lula gallery of course, there was a there was a study of Hadith throughout the history of India, you always had scholar the paddies even during the Mughal period in the daily Saltanat period, but they did not push the artery school in India because the Hanafi school was well established, right. And the Hanafi school the scholars from the Hanafi school would not allow a school to take

00:36:52--> 00:37:27

you know take How can I put it to take its place in within the Indian Muslim, Indian, Indian Muslim society. Right. So, later on in the night at his 18th century, Shangri La dialogue, we traveled to hijas he studied with the scholars, they studied Hadith, and he started to basically slowly drift away from some of the Hanafi opinions. And in other words, he became a semi Hanafi scholar not fully Hanafi he started to basically highlight that certain opinions in the Hanafi school

00:37:28--> 00:38:14

are controversial to say the least. And they they conflict with the Hadith directly. So he talked about for example, the issue of refer you then they talked about that in his book, or just albala refer you then the evidence for it is overwhelming. Likewise, son, then slowly drifted away further from the Hanafi school dog school of thought not entirely they did they still refer to themselves as the Hanafi school as Hanafi scholars they still thought Hanafi school Hanafi fiqh in the seminaries, but they express the differences with the mainstream Hanafi school in opinions. So sharp disease, for example, when it comes to the issue, but harmful Imam, he basically favored the Shafi school of

00:38:14--> 00:38:38

thought because of the Hadith. Last a lot, Lima alum Jacobi fortiauthenticator, department take it up, right. So then in the 19th century, some scholars, they expressed their distance from the Hanafi school openly proclaiming some sort of 100 Hadith way of thinking, you know, again, playing inverted commas.

00:38:40--> 00:39:23

These, you can call them proto are these protocol bodies in the Indian subcontinent in the first half of the 19th century. Who were these people, people like Shah is Vijay Shahid, who was the grandson of Chava EULA, who had become 100 Hardee's in his belief and practice, he spoke against the bidder and the shake of some of the people of the serve. I mean, not all the people that serve were practicing these things to be very, very clear, in case people are offended, but they was to suffer the war, that type of the sub of India which was practiced, which constituted Schick and Bella. Okay, and

00:39:24--> 00:39:59

can I just get into that a bit then, on the shoots of that as a character who comes to mind amid Cindy, who's even before many of these died in the early 17th century, and he kind of popularized this, this transition from a very what's word monist pantheistic laughter to do to what he called water to shoot. What would you do you understand to be extreme form of Shirky not saying that God Allah and dwells within creation and that the Krishna lives one hence the term walk in one? What did he

00:40:00--> 00:40:30

And it said that he was kind of on this kind of road himself, whether he when he got to where he intended to or not, we're not sure or is this where he went, he wanted to go to any stop. But there was this kind of movement away what what some academics would call sober Sufism right away from the crazy, extreme fanatical, open on orthodox heresy to something which is more more in accordance with, in a broad sense, Sunni Islam.

00:40:31--> 00:40:59

about something. Absolutely, you know, check, sir Hindi also known as Majid Al Thani, or the revival of the second millennium, right, because the first millennium had already ended in the time of Emperor Akbar, when he was ruling, India and Akbar had announced basically his apostasy from Islam, and not so many words, he started to drift away into other ways of life or the systems he initiated his own

00:41:01--> 00:41:55

mystical order called Dena Li, although school argue that it was not a new religion, what a mystical order. It was like a mystical order in the Sufi sense rather than a religion. Right. So that that is another discussion. But the point is, there were a lot of, let's say, Ill hard or heresy or unorthodox pot going around in India at the time, because the Emperor himself was suffering from such, you know, conditions, such problems. So that's why it was necessary for some scholars to rise to the task and and confront this rise of heart. So a chef, amateur Hindi, to give him credit, when it's due, he did stand up to it. And he challenged a lot of these Kufri thoughts or disbelieving

00:41:55--> 00:42:14

thoughts proposed as Islam, and even a lot of bit I check, willing to suffer, he challenged it, he challenged the pantheistic School of Waterloo directly head on any proposed amended theory, because why would you is is a Neoplatonic

00:42:15--> 00:42:20

theory, which was pioneered by Mohiuddin, Abu Dhabi,

00:42:22--> 00:43:04

from Spain, and then it was spread throughout Central Asia and from Central Asia, it was brought to India by the Central Asian scholars, and then it became the norm in India. And it was very much anti Islam. This theory was directly against the concept watashi Allah's uniqueness. So this worship Amasa Hindi. In fact, some scholars even go as far as to argue that the concept was misunderstood. It does appear to be shared, but it wasn't actually shaped, you know, so the spirit of it wasn't shared, but it does appear to be shared. So that's why a lot of scholars tried to justify it or tried to explain it away, even people like y'all you love, even people like sha Allah later on. He,

00:43:04--> 00:43:28

he was of the opinion that the concept of what the Bible would you would what actually misunderstood by many people in India, therefore, it needs to be, you know, re explained or, you know, somehow revised, revised or something like that, right. But showery law was a huge fan of Mr. Indy, for the right reasons, because Amazon understood against this onslaught of differential and beta at a time when,

00:43:30--> 00:44:14

when it was becoming the norm. And then he was imprisoned in the time of John Gale, for his political activity. He wrote many letters to political influentials, people within the court of Jagi. And even some of the courtiers of Akbar, he wrote letters to influentials to basically guide them to the right part as he saw the right part as he saw it. Basically, it wasn't nearly what 100 of these believe in today. So by our standard, even that was wasn't the right path. And it is unfair to expect a Salafi utterly upright scholar from shakaama Sunday when he himself was born in circumstances, given the chance to study the Atari school or even know about it, okay, these

00:44:14--> 00:44:19

buildings were not even known in India at the time, they were not even understood. So to expect

00:44:20--> 00:44:22

a strictly Atari understanding

00:44:23--> 00:44:42

from people like sha Allah, and jackhammer certainly is anachronism, it is not fair. It is not fair. Later. I don't know these corners. Some of the Arab scholars from Pakistan, lately have been condemning some of the writings of showery Elijah Amasa Hindi, and expecting them to be anachronistically.

00:44:43--> 00:44:59

To be just like them, this is not fair. They can expect a scholar in the Indian subcontinent in the 16th century to be just like you, because what you learn in your seminaries are the knowledge you were given, was pioneered in a long time.

00:45:00--> 00:45:36

it took it took me almost a century, the entire 19th century, scholars spent to establish this curriculum for you this understanding and to to revive it for you in the Indian subcontinent for you to have to have it today. You know, you can't just have knowledge coming from vacuum, it doesn't appear like that. But to mention, not to mention print media wasn't, you know, peripheral at the privilege at the time. So how would you get hold of a library, you know, and it costs money, you'd have to copy someone else's texts and someone have to explain it to you, as so many of those are barriers to learning. But the circumstances as you rightly mentioned, we just saw different back

00:45:36--> 00:46:03

then that is asking so much in almost almost, you know, a kind of ingratitude, you know, to where we are now, off the back of the hard work in extremely difficult and dangerous circumstances. Right. I mean, you could be lynched if, if the holy man thinks you're, you're taking away from his livelihood or his his religious deputation. Absolutely, absolutely. So we got, we have to appreciate the sacrifices

00:46:04--> 00:46:34

and the hard work of people like Chuck IMSR Hindi and his letters, if you read these letters, I mean, block put aside his erroneous beliefs and ideas. I mean, he was not a fully orthodox scholar in our current understanding of Islam. Okay, according to Mark, you know, what we call the attorney, the Hadith, understanding of Islam, strictly speaking, for our school, okay, I am myself, I have to decide, I prescribed to the school of thought, right.

00:46:37--> 00:47:23

If I was to use my 100, the standard of today to judge calm and serenity, he would be, you know, an unorthodox thinker. He is not fully Orthodox, but at the same time, you have to understand him in his own circumstances, in his own period, was even aware of this knowledge. Did he even have access to it? Did he have access, you know, fertile body by the way, fertile, fertile body, the shore house, I hear Bukhari by Abel hydrolysed, Kalani, it was only made available in India in the 19th century, knowledge was lacking in those days, people didn't have access to most books, very few people had access to knowledge. And even fewer had access to classical works of people like you

00:47:23--> 00:48:10

know, Tamia, Nokia, and even scholars before them, you know, so books are very highly valuable. Most books you found in India at this time were the Hanafi texts like hedaya, okay, and texts like, you know, a kind of Mamata reedy and things like that. So people were taught strictly on the Hanafi school of thought, and they didn't have chance to study other other sciences and other schools. So that's why the struggles of amateur indie, showery law, and scholars like them have to be appreciate, despite the fact that we disagree with with some of the teachings immensely, no doubt. But we have to pray because they were sincere. According to the knowledge they had, what to do their

00:48:10--> 00:48:14

circumstances, they stood up for Islam, they defended Islam as they saw

00:48:15--> 00:48:37

fit. Basically the same which Allah shoulda did the same thing when he came back. It wasn't easy to tell people that some of your beliefs are wrong. What you're doing is complete shirk and kufr and beta, what you're doing is not correct. In fact, there is a text attributed to a shower EULA, a lot of people deny that it was actually authored by showery Les Paul is titled albala Will movie

00:48:38--> 00:48:42

and Bulaga mobian Basically, is pretty much

00:48:44--> 00:49:02

you know, a lot of a lot of it is taken, the inspiration is taken from instantaneous work. Serato was stalking me Jamie has authored a book Serato stalking him and showery law, taken much inspiration in this book from short circuit Islamic Potamia. And the book is a genius

00:49:03--> 00:49:06

form of writing, you know, like Socrates

00:49:07--> 00:49:09

and Plato, you know,

00:49:11--> 00:49:18

there is there is a work of Plato, where we have dialogues of Socrates. Socrates is talking to his students.

00:49:20--> 00:49:28

I think it's called symposium. Yeah, it's called symposium if I'm not mistaken, right. Similarly, in this book, Chava EULA, he

00:49:29--> 00:50:00

is having a dialogue with another person who believes in basically going to graves and seeking blessings and, you know, doing all sorts of things on graves, right? So Chava EULA is having a dialogue with this person and answering his questions. He's posing questions, and Charlene is answering. So it's a dialogue between two people. The book is titled albala old movies and many Barelvi scholars actually denied that this book was written by showery London.

00:50:00--> 00:50:26

For obvious reasons, for obvious reasons, right, because it goes against a lot of their practices and beliefs. So I think we have to appreciate a lot of the work they have done and not look at the errors and the mistakes due to the lack of knowledge in those respective fields. So we must give them the benefit of the doubt and pray for them. May Allah forgive the errors and give them Jana for their struggles. I mean, we had in fact a similar kind of movement.

00:50:27--> 00:51:14

I've got I've got a series on TV and text where you had this kind of Hanafi revivalist returned to Hadith returned to some influenced by the TV in the middle payment particularly, and considering the environment like like mobile India, dogman Ma was a strictly Calum. I'm a 3d as opposed to the Ashley but still Columbus creed and strictly Hanafi so they had to navigate as best they could, and they might not have got to where we were very, you know, lackadaisically want them to or expect them to introduce standards with our access to a whole biblioteca fingertips, but considering you know, the the the obstacles they did an amazing lot of reformation reforms and and last thing of course,

00:51:15--> 00:51:56

and on that point, if we go back to India, it said that in our exams time, particularly are under his reign, there was a move away from the more How can you say extreme Matassa with as sometimes they say, as the difference between Sufism and the Medusa, which is the most extreme version of Sufism, it goes well beyond the pale of, of what would even be have any kind of rooted Islam. So it said that under his reign, there was a move away from just the Sufi syncretic with the Hindu kind of belief, practice towards a more orthodox Nakhchivan the Sunni Islam not that

00:51:57--> 00:52:29

if we look in some Nexium and the practice, like the Haqqanis in certain parts of the world, that's also a bit out there. But this seemed to be a bit modular, said sober, a bit more anti bit a bit more pro Sharia not unlike Imam shaman in Dagestan, very pro Sharia, you know, and to their understanding, they were anti be that you've anti innovation. Oh, what do you say about that? Yeah, even even this had started with shakaama surrender himself. He specifically mentioned this in his writing, that we have to be Sharia compliant, or the Sabbath

00:52:31--> 00:53:15

has to be Sharia compliant, because what was happening in India, there were two parallel ways. One was the Sharia, Islam, and one was the so called the Sons of Islam, which was in Islam, right, that the Sabbath, wasn't Sharia compliant, it was against the Sharia, it was against the basic teachings of Islam, some of the work that was being practiced in India. Therefore, people like Shama Cindy, had come to realize this and they highlighted this in the writings that we have to be Sharia compliant are the Sabbath has to fit within the the norms of Islam, otherwise, it is not Islam, so don't call it Islam. Right. Like what shall we do law did the same thing. Okay. Amazingly, you

00:53:15--> 00:54:05

mentioned to me and influence on the Turks. Not many people noticed it, not him, he has influenced influences had arrived in India within his life, or maybe close to his life of just soon after his death. In fact, it is thought that some of his students, some of the students of shareholder Islam in multimedia, they arrived in India soon after his death. This was the time of Muhammad bin Toggler. Mohammed Mendola was a very powerful daily sofar. And he ruled from 1325 to 1351 for almost 25 to 26 years. And in his time, there were many debates in this court about the practices of the sub have known in India, even just the the sort of because chef and his amo been Olia was alive at

00:54:05--> 00:54:36

the time. He was alive in the time of Hamad bin dogleg. In fact, he died in 1325, Rakata, les les and his student, the point, the famous point, miracles also died six months later, they were buried together in in the same spot. And the place in Delhi today, called an example Dean is that place where the shake is buried? Right? He was just the Sufi, right. So he believed in Sama, you know, listening to

00:54:39--> 00:54:59

listening to poetry with musical instruments. And this was one of his ways to attract the Hindus to Islam because Hindus, they loved music, music was part of Hindu DNA. It has been for 1000s of years, let's say right? So it's part of the religion you know, in singing and dancing is part of the religion, the Hindu religion, so to attract

00:55:00--> 00:55:46

them. This was one of the ways to bring them closer, right? But some scholars in the court of Muhammad intoxalock were against this way of Dawa. They said this is not Islam. This is actually against Islam. And a debate took place. A famous debate took place in the court of Muhammad Toggler between the orama and Chefin. Is amo been Olia right. So the automa was saying that sama is not from Islam. And this was clearly due to social influences that had come from Schaeffer Islamic Potamia into India, and Malik Muhammad Nizami is a scholar, an Indian scholar who has written an article specifically on this, Abraham Amias influences in India. Okay, and I strongly recommend that

00:55:46--> 00:56:12

particular article, I'm pretty sure you can find it if you Google it, Holic Ahmed Nizami it notes Amias influences in India or something like that I may be getting the title wrong, but Google that and you will find it in sha Allah. And he mentions in detail how some of the scholars and some of the thought influences had already made their way into India, at the dailies author period. So there is no doubt that these influences are coming in people from outside

00:56:13--> 00:56:26

who had studied with the Middle Eastern scholars or scholars in the mush people, like Imitate me, don't get me wrong, even even everything Nia believed in some some form of the sub have not

00:56:27--> 00:56:44

assured qualities of I should call it the skier turnoffs. You know, they were they were, they were people of a bar, even though Tamia was a people picker, he was a people of Oran, you know, he would do a lot of work of a lot of doors, and likewise, if no, even obey him

00:56:46--> 00:57:12

in a play, and he also wrote books on some form of the server, which is shariah, compliant, of course, to the sub Wolf is a controversial term because of some recent practices, unfortunately, the named Sufi has been tarnished by some of the practices of recent, you know, like the name Shia was tarnished by some of the beliefs of the 12 years later on.

00:57:13--> 00:57:48

And Basra because the term Shia wasn't as bad as tarnished as as it is today. Unfortunately, that's why you know, unfortunately in the Sunni circles, at least he or she, the term Shia has become a derogatory term right? It is when you call someone Shia, you're not praising them right? But in the time of let's say mahavidya and maybe even the even the second century of Islam the term Shia wasn't as as controversial as it is today. Likewise, the term Sufi has become tarnished and controversial because of some of

00:57:49--> 00:57:57

non Sharia or non Islamic practices of Some so called Sufis such as dancing, smoking ganja

00:57:58--> 00:58:44

not praying, not not bathing, bowing to graves and uttering absolute shirk, you know, absolute open, clear shift from the tongues, okay, this and they call themselves Sufis, right. So this kind of so called the serve has tarnished the original the real, the Sharia compliant Skeleton, skeleton nurse type of serve, okay, which was practiced by most alumni in the past, okay, which is practiced by some other elite scholars today. Right? So, rolling a Tasbeeh doesn't make you Sufi, although people start calling you. They start calling you Sufi, but there's, this is a virtue. This is a beautiful thing. You're making the kind of Allah you're remembering Allah, you're making to us, as long as

00:58:44--> 00:59:27

those are some not prescribed, right? You'll find people might call you Sufi, you know, but you're not, strictly speaking, you're following the Sharia, you're following the instructions of Allah and His messenger. So, this is the confusion that came about unfortunately, and not me as influenced influences are found in India very early, and later on, of course, they disappeared. And during the Mughal period, the Mughal emperors themselves gave a lot of importance to tombs. In fact, Akbar is known to have walked to the tomb of shacks and he would be interesting. And when a son was born to him, he named him Saleem, because of this share, you know, Jahangir? His name was

00:59:28--> 00:59:59

Nora Dean Jahangir por lo been sullied right? His name was silly. He was named after the chef from this tomb. So the Mughal emperors were very much in favor of tombs and going to tombs and visiting tombs and mobile establishment, even the family of Orange was into it. Even orange, Milan, he was into it himself, but he was a lot more Sharia compliant than his predecessors. Because he had a company he had the company of the Armada Olimar were very frequent in his court and

01:00:00--> 01:00:19

He had the advice of the Olimar. So he didn't do all those things his predecessors were doing at the tombs, but Alhamdulillah Allah, forgive him, Allah subhanaw taala give him Jana for all the hard work he did even for Kavala Maria if you read some of the rulings they are in or some of the questions about grave

01:00:21--> 01:01:06

you know, going to tombs going to Mazar how do we so the protocols are put down and it clearly states that such the to the cover is not allowed is haram. Okay, so even fatawa Adam gidea, which was compiled by the scholars, and many of these cars are actually with a servo motor servo theme, they themselves are Sufis, right. But they put down these orthodox teachings of the Hanafi school of thought on these matters in Alpha Tau oliguria, also known as Alpha Tau, India, right. The which was compiled by the orders of Emperor orange A, and many scholars took part in the compilation of this particular Compendium, which is possibly the largest work of Hanafy jurisprudence in the world

01:01:06--> 01:01:06

today.

01:01:07--> 01:01:43

On Dylan, as we come to an hour, that kind of helps us get back to where we began, let's bring you up to speed in terms of if you will permit me to delve into politics a bit, if we're looking at. Okay, great. We're looking at the lay of the land. Now. I saw it the bed by the way that you had, I won't call it debate, let's say lively discussion, on the issue of when it came to the discuss the issue of partition, and that is not a black and white issue of, of nationalism, and there's some benefit in the Muslims having their own secure set. And I believe if I've got your side, right, that you arguing that look at what's happening in India today, we're not for Pakistan, being a separate

01:01:43--> 01:01:54

entity, autonomous political setup, then God knows how much further some of this oppression could have reached. Without as a context, where do you see

01:01:56--> 01:02:03

Islam politically now, with this religious, with religion being so accessible, let's say with Orthodox,

01:02:04--> 01:02:45

understanding being so prevalent? And as we've mentioned, at the touch of fingertip, how can this potentially help to revitalize Islam? And is there a difference between the borders in terms of what Islam is practicing in India, and I'm not being dismissive Bangladeshis? It's easier because of the proximity of Indian Pakistan being on one border, as opposed to what's happening in Pakistan. Of course, in Pakistan, you have a Islamist kind of leader right? At the level of you could say, the one is Imran Khan, you have certainly Islam or philic. Leader. And in India, you have a nationalist and Islamophobic set up a ruler with the Modi there. So speak to that tell us what you think, what

01:02:45--> 01:02:49

you think can happen, what should happen, and where this can possibly influence.

01:02:51--> 01:03:34

I believe currently, Islam is under siege in India, and Indian establishment, the current establishment is openly, unashamedly Islamophobic. They don't even hide it. And they don't make any excuses for it, because they seem to have received the blessings of the international community to be Islamophobic because they're not being condemned. They're not being questioned about it, movies, flying around, having conferences, meeting global leaders, shaking hands with them, even hugging them, and they are openly you know, welcoming him. Even though in India, there is a silent genocide taking place right now as we speak of the Muslims. So Islam is facing destruction in India, okay, at

01:03:34--> 01:03:42

the same time, the Muslims are waking up, there is no doubt the Muslims are realizing that something ought to be done otherwise, this will be

01:03:44--> 01:04:01

an open genocide very soon. In fact, there is a journalist called CJ worldly man, is that what it's called? He's very active on Twitter. And I think Facebook, I see some of his posts and he said that

01:04:02--> 01:04:45

India has already crossed the threshold, irreversibly of you know, different stages of genocide when genocide is about to take place, stage one, stage two stage three. So, he believes that now the stage where the genocide is reversible has already been reached in India. So, maybe there might be a genocide in India, of the Muslims very soon because the signs have already appeared. Hindu mobs are openly destroying mosques. They are attacking Muslim households. They are killing Muslims the lynching, there are lynching mobs walking around to the condition of the Muslims is very similar to the the condition of

01:04:46--> 01:04:59

Afro Americans in the American South in the late 19th century and early 20th century where lynch mob could simply find a black man accused him of a crime. Put him on the tree hanging lynch him

01:05:00--> 01:05:24

And then there will be popcorns you know, people would be selling popcorns. And this would be practical. Yeah, this is this is this actually happened. This happened historically, where people would gather around the tree where a black man would be lynched and popcorns would be sold, people will be buying popcorns watching the spectacle, right. This is how things are in India for Muslims, and Islam

01:05:26--> 01:05:34

is under siege. These, the BJP establishment is openly attacking Islam using ignorant, Hindu

01:05:35--> 01:06:19

extremist ideologues to attack Islam in erroneous ways they are making claims, that when you hear those claims that you you just you just laugh at them. But it is very serious. What they're doing is very serious, no one's questioning them, the Indian media is backing all of this. So Muslims are facing an existential threat in India right now as we speak, right? Everyone knows it. The whole international community is aware of it. The Muslims around the world are aware of it, right. So the situation on Muslims in India is very, very dire. And the Muslim community internationally need to speak up for the Muslims of India, just like they are speaking, speaking up for the wiggers just

01:06:19--> 01:06:54

like they spoke up for the Rohingya. Not long ago, we need to speak up collectively. For the Muslims of India, it's not it's no longer about Kashmir anymore, which to me, is a very, of course, it's a very popular popular movement. Globally speaking, it is discussed even in the UN, right. But the condition of the Muslims within India, forget about the institution's let alone this to do. I mean, I don't know if you watched a recent interview between a Hindu right wing interviewer, and the head of the band. He's an elder.

01:06:56--> 01:07:32

He's an elderly chef, he gives some very good answers. And he was being pressurised into accepting the Taliban or your product. You are the ones who give birth to Taliban, because they call themselves Deobandi, and their bond is here in India, therefore, you are a terrorist establishment. This is what they were doing with old man. And he was saying we have nothing to do with Taliban never came here. We never went there. So there is no direct link between us and Taliban, they can claim spiritual dissent from us, but we have nothing to do with them. So this is the kind of rhetoric that's being used in India against the Muslims, right? If it's not ISIS is Taliban, you are

01:07:32--> 01:07:38

either an ISIS sympathizer or you are a Taliban Taliban sympathizer. And it's clear that the Indian Muslims have made

01:07:40--> 01:08:10

you know, the, the distance from these organizations very, very clear. The Indian Muslims have made it very clear that we are neither sympathizers of ISIS, or Taliban or any other political entity around the world, extremist or otherwise, right? We don't have anything to do with them. Because it's not it's simply not possible for them to to have some kind of political thought or political view in India. So there are they are facing a very difficult

01:08:12--> 01:08:54

existential situation, and may Allah protect them. So it is not very possible today to launch new institute institutions who have a renaissance of Islam in India, it will only come about when Muslims have equal rights. And Muslims are free to establish the institutions when Muslims are free to express their views, and most of the free to teach Islam and practice Islam. That's not the case currently in India. Even those institutions that exist today are under threat. under the threat of closure, under the threat of outright destruction. I wouldn't be surprised. God forbid, Allah forbid, I hope I am wrong in my, you know, in Persian, this Akaka madonn, you know, may just be in

01:08:54--> 01:09:32

my mouth. I don't want to say this, right. But I wouldn't be surprised in near future. One of these institutions was raided by a mob of Hindu extremists. And they might, you know, they might start killing the Armada and you know, and start killing the students, you know, because they've been so brainwashed by the hatred of the BJP and the government, that they end up doing something stupid like this, right. So Muslims are in a very, very difficult situation. In Pakistan, it's a different situation. Unfortunately, the situation of Islamic movement in Pakistan is not very promising as well. I don't be pessimistic. Yeah, absolutely. The Allama

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or the so called scholars who are leading the religious movement in Pakistan, they are not very upright. Unfortunately, I don't want to mention names, but I cannot point to one person and say that these people are there are individuals. No doubt. I'm talking about institutions and pools of goals have simply failed to produce

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effective leadership. Right

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For whatever reason, whether the politics of the country doesn't allow it, or whether they are scared for the lies or whether whatever the reasons are, I don't want to go into those reasons. But the schools, all the schools have failed to produce effective leadership that can lead the Islamic element within the country. It intellectually intelligently, even politically, right. So Islamic movement is very, very weak. How do I know that? Look at the major parties, look at the major parties in the country. Right. Who are the major parties, the biggest party in in Pakistan is a PML pm PML N. Pakistan Muslim League Nawaz group, no washing is party, then we have People's Party.

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Right, which is a secular party. Right. Then we have

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what other parties we have MQM, which is a secular party right.

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Now.

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So sorry, three things off is well, the ruling party PPI PTI Of course, video was brought into power. Everyone knows that noise is openly discussed that they wouldn't come to power on their own, put into power by the establishment. So this much is very, very clear. But then there's another rising power, which is called the regular bake, okay? It changes randomly, it is predominantly gravy, right? So, you know, the situation looks very grim

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when it comes to Orthodox, strictly speaking, Quran and Sunnah schools, not coming forward and producing effective leadership. So at the same time, Allah will take care of his people, I'm sure Allah will bring about some solution to these problems. You never know this particular bag, people might come around and find the way Inshallah, who knows, who knows once they get international exposure, a lot of these people, they end up in beta and all stuff like that is because they don't have international exposure. They have born into a little circle of color movies. And that's all they know, this is the Islam they know. But when they have international exposure, the public come

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to realize that Islam is far bigger than they originally thought.

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Who knows, maybe requires the fourth battle of Panipat.

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It seems to be a way to reset the situation in the Indian subcontinent these battles. I would like to say it, I wouldn't like to say I don't I don't like to talk about conflicts and wars and structions whatever Allah brings about is up to Allah. But the situation of Muslims in India is very, very, very dire. It needs immediate international attention because you have people like yogi, this extremist, I would call him a terrorist,

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Hindu monk, who is he who is bent upon the destruction of the Muslims and his actions. This the only reason they're holding back is because of the opposition in India. Don't get me wrong, there are very good moral Hindus in India, who don't want this to happen, they want India to be diverse, they want India to be multicultural, they want India to be colorful, okay. But these

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the other side the right wing, extremist Hindus, the saffron, saffron Hindus, you know, the color Sufyan, one these guys, they want one India and that is Hindu, okay. And they even talk about reconversion of the Muslims mass reconversion of the Muslims, back to Hinduism, they call it ghar Wapsi, they call it the term they use it Gavazzi coming back home basically, in other words, that we will bring all these Muslims back home, from Islam to Hinduism, and they are coming up with propaganda ideas like love jihad, the Muslims do love jihad. In other words, they convert Hindu girls and get married to them, and we cannot allow that. So if any Muslim man is known to have

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married, an ex Hindu woman, he will be killed by a mob, he will be lynched, he will be simply lynched and the police will not take action. No case will be filed. There are so many cases, they run into hundreds. They run around into hundreds of cases in India. India is basically a hodgepodge of a bunch of extremists right now, politically speaking, not the masses, of course the politicians are spreading hate against the Muslims actively. They want Muslims to be either completely

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you know, the one Muslims leave Islam completely or just

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they're not even allowing Muslims to live silently. They don't even tolerate the silence of the Muslim they want. They're pursuing Muslims all over India now. So Muslims make 14% According to estimates, official estimates, I'm pretty sure it's more than that. Right? of India. How are you going to how are you going to, you know, reconvert or bring all these people back?

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back home as you see it, how you going to do that is very different unless you committed genocide against. And this is what the current government is trying to do. It is trying to cause

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what happened on a smaller scale in 2001 or 2002, in Gujarat, on a massive scale in India, you know, under Modi, there was a pogrom against Muslims of Gujarat whereby 3000 Muslims were killed, and 1000s of others were injured. And Modi was acquitted by the Supreme Court of India. And now Modi is trying to do that on a wider scale on a bigger scale throughout India. And we pray that Allah protects the Muslims of India.

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I mean, I mean, who knows if, if they attempt this genocide through intellectual terrorism, through debate and discourse, it might inshallah backfire and blow up in their face him that they will be dumbfounded by the proofs of Islam in the strength of Islam, through the Quran, through the Sierra, religion, they are older don't get me wrong, that they are already dumbfounded. That's why they banned people like zakat like they don't want people like that because I can like is one of the most peaceful persons you will find in the world. Right? Right. They couldn't tolerate him because he was converting 1000s of Hindus through his reasoning with our 1000s 1000s upon 1000s. We're accepting

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Islam. Now even accepting Islam is haram in India. If you accept Islam from Hinduism, you will get killed. But Dalits the lower cost many of them then we're coming to Islam and they were being tortured and killed and and lynched by Hindu mobs for doing so. So, India is the most Islamophobic nation officially speaking in the world today.

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That's India, India. Politically speaking, I'm not talking about the people the masses.

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I'm not talking about all those millions of people. I'm not brushing them all with the same brush. No, absolutely not. India is full of absolutely amazing moral, ethical people, Hindus and otherwise, India is a beautiful place. It is a beautiful country, full of beautiful people. But there is one ugly bunch, which is currently, you know, ruling India is causing a lot of destruction within the country, and is making politically politically making the country one of the most Islamophobic nations in the world. Unfortunately, firstly, and with Allah, we seek refuge and his head on that note, I mean, indeed Allahumma Amin, on that note, we will

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conclude and it's been very insightful, very engaging, fascinating part in part as well. To speak to start at non Rashida really appreciate your time and effort, we finally got to lock this down.

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And thank you lovely to having me and you asked me some very important questions. We need to have these discussions more and more rare the awareness of our history in the Indian subcontinent, religiously and politically, and also what's happening today. So we need to connect our history with India and

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you know, and see a solution find a solution to the current situation, and hopefully we will have those intellectuals and thinkers and mockery will come forward and they will give us solutions to this problem.

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Let's say today, we highlighted a lot of

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issues and I want people to think of solutions, solutions that are intelligent, that are legal, that are practical, and inshallah once we start working towards them situation can change it may take 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, who knows, okay?

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To do away with the poison of Islamophobia. It might take us a generation but no problem. Let's do it. Let's start the work. Allah will help us inshallah.

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Mata Mata, Mata coda. So if you basically get up and you know, if you, as I say, You know what you want to do something Allah will help you in sha Allah. Sure. And thank you. Thank you. The pleasure is mine. And with that, we let the broadcast slowly go off till I get back Salam