A Peace of Cake Special with Ustadh Alyas Karmani
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Slowly Komal to Llahi over our cattle and it's good to be back after fortnight excuse us for missing last week partly down to my mice myself being sick with flu one of those rarities masala to recolor. So if you hear me being a bit more bass spacey than usual, that's the result of it and no other aim I'm not trying to imply it. Should I say Helios I'm not trying to imitate Teddy Pendergrast or one of these old Smooches from back in the day is just recovering from fluid shut Allah but you welcome everyone there in that top hand corner you will see none other than at resident brother who is
my guest as me yeah, I'm gonna
and in the I don't even know what like who's left or right or who's sitting well, the left hand corner that's, of course the the the esteemed Dr.
Bill Baker, and is another doctor.
But he's a doctor as well isn't a doctor?
Bless his brother, beloved brother, Ilyas Kermani being back to us by being back with us again. And you are all here joining us on a piece of cake. Welcome back brothers sisters. Yes. It's great to have you back with us. Remember the last time not always great, always great to be in such esteemed company Alhamdulillah Zarca locker, and I think Abderrahim and myself was speaking two weeks ago, still sticking with the perspective of men, brothers, fathers husbands, and some pretty profound revelations and discussions emanated from two weeks ago and I think that we agreed that we should keep this thread going while looking Salam system Allah Hi, good to see you here. So what I would
say today and Kira why leaking Salam Tila Ali Mohammed wondering consulting so today what we're going to be discussing, as you can see is the death of fatherhood. Okay while looking salaam to all of you join us really good to see you here with us sorry for the slightly late delays at Hani Good to see you with us again after a lot of work a lot Polycom salon so here and Octavia as well masala to work Allah Ilias after him one of the things that I was looking at with regards to depth of fatherhood, and I really do believe that this is an issue that we need to discuss. And I was reading a book, coincidentally cadoola Mostafa, a few weeks ago by Gordon No Phil, Dr. Gordon Neufeld and
Gabor Mattei hold on to your kids. Why?
Yeah, it is why parents need to matter more than peers. And it's an excellent book, martial law student of knowledge from Medina was reading it and recommended it to me. And so I will refer to some excerpts of that, as we go from today's discussion in the last two years.
More or less paraphrase the whole book. I've summarized the whole book yet. So if anyone is interested in a webinar on at some point, then I'm happy to go through the whole of that book. Yeah. Dr. Gallin that has material on this is actually very, very,
you know, of our time is very, very, very important for all of us, I think. Yeah, I think should I jump in this earlier? I think you should arrange a webinar, I think, parenting fatherhood. Many of us, no matter if we have children, or we don't, are in need of knowing some of the realities that we end up finding out when it's too late. And when there's conflict, I said, Talk to him last week or two weeks ago. And
it was a very profound statement, but it's one that I think I've realized resonates with others as well. We may love our children, but we may end up disliking some of them. Okay, and someone wrote back on one of the podcasts, and that was something that he found very profound, but it's a reality that's there. And there are many reasons be around. That should never happen. What you dislike is your own self being reflected back at you. And that and that's how it really is because I think whenever I start this discussion, one of the interesting things about fatherhood and father, the father role is one of the most fundamentally essential roles in society that has been profoundly
undermined in our industrialized societies. And so many ways of shapes or forms that we're going to explore. I call it default.
authorization Yeah. And when we look at our own, when we look at the best man who ever walked on the face of this earth, the Prophet alayhi salat wa salam, we see that he was a guardian. He fulfilled the Hadith Kulu camera in Kodachrome was all in a row at a Raju row in the date, okay, well, llamas, all in a variety. Every one is a guardian fulfill your chart. And then it says the man is a guardian of his family of his children. The father role is a fundamentally important role in shaping society. And one of the reasons I set up resilient dads which is a program that I run is exactly that. Fathers do not engage in parenting programs to learn the beneficial knowledge which is out there
both from our religion and political prophetic parenting and prophetic fatherhood, as well as the beneficial knowledge out there Dr. Gabbard now, matter as amongst others here,
and they are not engaged in one most critical periods of social and emotional cognitive development of their children from zero to four.
And this is the Hadith of the Prophet sallallaahu Salam you know, mommy Mahmoud in il EULA Allah Allah, Allah, Allah Phaedra. And then it says, For other wha hoo, every child is born upon is a blank slate, is that blank slate that is a built upon fitrah. And then you construct what happens there after? What about and this is the most important thing.
And I've had so many discussions about this. And you know, when we're involved in our work, in 30 years, we've seen an increase in our communities of criminality, underachievement, increase in substance abuse, mental health problems, family, disintegration, unemployment, economic underachievement, the list goes on, I have zero faith in our institutions to reverse this situation. But the most powerful way that you change this reality is for Anwar, who, through the parenting, and what I found is that fathers do not come to parenting programs. This is, let me interject there, though. This is a very good point, I'm going to ask them to redeem their Abderrahim. When we spoke
two weeks ago, you mentioned about the parenting of your parents, your mother, your father, and how your father was reviewing everything? Do we need to go on parenting programs? Okay, shouldn't it be it? Shouldn't it be something that is we've learned from our parents, both of you come from, in a sense in both areas, you come from a cultural background, you have that that that network around you? So is it needed in your community context, abdur-rahim, you come from a predominantly middle class or middle class and the society where white privilege privilege is prevalent? So the both of you have foundations upon which that's there now. So why would you both need to have programming
programs for parenting? Now, I've been talking about myself, for this instance, I come from a single parent family, my father and mother divorced when I was young, a statistic that's there for many, not only from the African Caribbean community, but from others, but there was a prevalence there amongst their communities. But do I need to have do does my community or my ethnic backdrop require parenting based on the fact that many of us were not raised with our fathers, and therefore have an equal chance there? So there are three different contexts? Two of them very similar? I would say. And that's why I would ask him through him. What do you say about that?
Well, I know that my parents educated themselves about parenting. Yeah,
I actually sort of have vague memories of it, I kind of been very old. But I do know that my parents and I remember them having, you know, maybe not directly in front of me, but I remember discussions taking place. And I do know that my parents had some sort of they did try to educate themselves about and obviously, you know, historically, there was always these different parenting styles that, you know, especially get, I guess, especially out of the 1960s, there must have been a whole different,
you know, type of parenting styles. And then basically, I guess, in the 70s, and 80s, there was this whole idea that self esteem was really important. So parents went around picking their kids up and trying to fill them make them feel really good about themselves, which was a real disaster. Yeah,
it was a real case of false causality is that kids who had high self esteem
are the ones who had high self esteem, not because their parents made them feel really good about themselves because they did things that they felt proud about. But it was all translated into a very disastrous type of parenting style that produced basically sort of people like Donald Trump. Yeah. Who have this closed mindset and who think they're naturally talented and brilliant and just amazing or is in fact, they're simply not
But yeah, so I do think you need I've always educate. I mean, I think you need to educate yourself about anything, how could you possibly imagine that you are as best as you possibly can be on every on any given thing, and just relying upon you know how your parent, even if you think your parents bought you up really well, and I just generally think my parents did bring me up very well. And I've taken a lot of good lessons from them. But it's never stopped me educating myself about, you know, how can I improve myself as a parent? So I don't, I think that would just go contrary to what we as How are we supposed to be as Muslims? Because we're always seeking knowledge, we're always seeking
to improve ourselves? How can we ever imagine that we've reached some sort of state of perfection that we can't, you know, improve ourselves. That's a good point, even beforehand, but earlier on, I was listening to
Black fatherhood thing that was being discussed in from American American context, and how black Fatherhood has been diminished societally. And it's also diminished from within the community, by
the women on that particular example. And I found that quite interesting and insightful. So while you're saying that abdur-rahim And while before I go back to Italy, is what you've highlighted in the day, right? We do. We cannot say, carte blanche, that the remedies that are there, apart from the sooner of course, will fit in each societal or ethnic context. That's something that's very, very, very clear. And even if we're applying the deen, that the Hadith that you're mentioning,
in the US, there has to be specific nuances and aspects of how and when to apply the prophetic guidance, in particular, challenging circumstances. And I will say that concerning a lot, or a
lot of should I say, circumstances I've come across amongst urban, black and white
families that are facing these particular challenges, and I want to put it remember to defer father with him, what do we mean by that, in the context I'm looking at is that we've lost control of our children, society has prevailed and become ever more predominant, and taken powers reserved powers from us. And I will go as far as to say that in some instances, mothers have used up powers from us using the society because the size society favors the women, especially in a western context, it favors the woman, whether in marriage or outside of marriages, single parents, and what you'll see is that on a number of occasions, and examples, Muslim and non Muslim, that you will see that the
mother and the son of society are the ones that shape that child, and the father is the one.
The father isolation, yeah, you're right. There are so many levels, there is a political, social, economic, okay, and practical level at which this occurs. Yeah. But fathers have allowed this to happen. Fathers themselves have allowed this to happen. Who says that the mother has to be the primary socializer. And the one who's involved in parenting, in particular, in the years zero to four, because why are always talking about zero to four, this is when the child cognitively develops more than any other period in their life. We're talking about 1 million synaptic connections per second, by the age of four, a child has 1 trillion synaptic connection connections, 1 trillion, it's
phenomenal. They're operating at super genius level. And who says that it's, it's the that the father should not be as involved as the mother? Yes. Our economic system takes the father away for 12 hours from the home. He comes home, especially when it's low, low income fathers completely smashed, not prepared to engage. And if you're obviously in more Scandinavian countries, where there's a better work life balance, where there's a kind of more egalitarian society where men are hands on you'll see a totally different dynamic, okay? Fathers allow this to happen. That's the my my I'm not going to get onto a political level because I can't influence at the political level
fathers and when I look at the my work around what we call aces adverse childhood experiences, and early childhood trauma, and a lot of it is come from America. And a lot of it is come from epigenetic studies. Yeah. Which are from three generations of cross generational transference of trauma from the grandfather to the Father to the Son. And what we see is the same transference of a failed father model, or toxic father model, absent for the model, or we say fathers who are present who should be absent because they're abusive
If it's a learned behavior, it's a learned behavior. The resilient down programs is not about bashing dads. Now, I'll give you an example. A man gives birth, he provides sperm.
That is just the fact that that's the basic that's required. He has a drug problem. He has a mental health problem. He has a crime problem. He has a violence problem. He has a whole range of issues. Now you are in charge of this blank slate.
Why are you not seeking knowledge and guidance to break your own cycle of learned behavior? That's my fundamental point here today. Yeah, you're not Frederick Douglass made this point. Yeah. Frederick Douglass, he says it's easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. Right. And he was talking about breaking the cycle of the Black Holocaust of, of 300 years of slavery, which created a culture, a mindset, which became epigenetic almost transferred in DNA. Now through IFC here in Bradford, where I live in the South Asian Pakistani community, grandfather, to father to son, the same parenting model, the same authoritarian parenting model, which does not work which
creates a double life syndrome where two children disconnect from you. And then as governor Mattis says, Then you seek that attachment in your peer group, rather than you could I quote from that, let me say quickly, because you're right on that. And Gabor Murthy does say that and new for the doctrinal field. For the first time in history, young people are turning for instruction, modeling and guidance, not to mothers, fathers, teachers and other responsible adults, but to people who never who Nature never intended to place in a parenting role. Their own peers, they are not manageable, teachable, or maturing, because they no longer take their cues from adults. Instead,
children are being brought up by immature persons who cannot possibly guide them to maturity. They have been brought up by each other. So that speaks exactly to the point that you mentioned in there.
Yeah, absolutely. I doubt very much. It's the first time in history. I mean, people love to make these bombastic statements, but I doubt very, very,
I doubt very much is the first time in history. In fact, it's probably happened many, many, many, many times, it's probably, if you'll probably find it's an intrinsic fundamental part of civilizational collapse. And it's repeated itself over and over again. And there's a few points I wanted to take up Helios. And the point is, is that you asked the question, but in your response in what you said, was the answer to your own question, right? And you said, Why are these fathers not taking responsibility? And you know, why are they not bringing up their children, they've got these blank slates, but then you yourself said that it's easier to fix. You know, it's easier to bring up
a child right and fix a broken adult. And that's exactly the reason why these men are not taking these steps in order to help themselves because they're broken, right. And as we know, every city, you know, as we should know, that the greatest jihad, the greatest struggle is the struggle against yourself, right? Just this morning, I was sitting with my kids. And I was telling them, I had a long discussion with them. And I said, this is the hardest thing I said, the hardest thing is to be honest to yourself, the hardest thing is to stop telling yourself stories. Yeah, the hardest thing is to stop making all these excuses about why you're like this. Why am I overweight? Oh, because you
know, when I was I have this relationship with food, and I have this emotional connection, blah, blah, blah, well, the really real reason is you just can't control yourself, because you're just not ready to put the effort. But you make all of these stories, and you have all of these excuses, or like whatever it may be, you know, I'm a middle class, whatever. Why is this and blah, blah, blah, I'm, you know, I'm a black. I'm a Pakistani, I'm from this. And I'm from that. And these are all the stories that we tell ourselves about why we can't do the things we need to do and make the commitments that we need to make. And that's what they are, they're really just stories that
our ego, simply oversimplification, because if I'm talking about blindness,
there's one thing you won't be able to do speak from respect. We speak from my perspective, at least, which is spoken about not 300 400 years of inherited trauma. If you haven't walked in our shoes and seeing the challenges that we faced. They're not just excuses of dreams. Some of them are, I admit.
Let me say in this instance, when you look at the research that's been done, and I'm going to talk about the black communities with regards to parenting, fatherhood, broken marriages, and it's not all like that, because many, many of us are parenting our children. But there are challenges and
challenges that you're feeding. If it's if it's so inevitable and a product of whatever how come so many people manage like you managed to break out and achieve something different.
decision, you made a decision bro, you made a decision to hate to face those hard truths to look at
self in the mirror, right? And to take the path that of self reformation right. And listen, bro, my oldest, you know, don't paint it like, you know, everyone goes through trauma and different things you may think that you know, yeah, the black experiences of black experience. Yeah. But listen roll, like being brought up a white middle class person who gets sent to a boarding school, right? You or you don't have it have any idea of what trauma that is you have no idea how that emotionally damages you, you have no idea what you have done.
You have to swim through to get out of that in order just to be able to read to connect to people emotionally, a lot of people can't do it. So we all have our own traumas, bro. The point is, the simple point is, when we're having a fundamental discussion, do we believe that human beings have free will? Do we believe that we have choices? Or do we just believe we're determined by our circumstances, and we're inevitably doomed to go down some path of self destruction can be crippled by them, you can change. I'm not saying they're irrelevant, but not relevant, bro. I'm not saying they don't have an impact. But the reality is, it's a story that we tell ourselves, right? And we've
created this idea of ourselves and who we are right? And it's all there to protect ourselves, bro, you got to study the ego, bro, you got to study this, this whole notion of a human being defending the idea of self right? My it's a threat to your actual physical life. That is why people will get out to gun and shoot another human being because they looked at them in a way they didn't like you were disrespecting me. What if no one threatened your life. But what that happened is that person's idea of self identity was threatened. And for that person, it's as bad as a threat to their life. But this is just the ego. This is just the stories that we've built around ourselves. This is not
real stuff. Really. Right. And that's it unless we can get to grips with these things, bro. This is the ABCs of Islam. This is the ABCs of what every religious tradition is basically about if we can't understand we can't agree on this row. What's the point? On ego I understand what you're saying there and I accept that and fret back to in the moment and yes, I like when the aliases on because he's so cool fire up that we could take
it so upbringing was about ego that's point. And as you said, Look, if someone is broken, okay. And if someone if someone is broken and damaged person damage someone else refer you're saying okay, I broke out of a particular paradigm. Have I completely done? No, no, because I know the challenges that I have have. Have you said blank slate, when you haven't got a canvas of knowing what it's like to be a father because you have another father around. Okay, and then we can look at the dean. But many of us have taken aspects of the dean and the Prophet Cersei limbs lifestyle, and we've applied it in abstract and we've applied it. idealistically, we've done it in our marriages, we've done it
with our children. And in some instances, some of our children that you will you and I all of us have individuals whose children have come off the Dean because of that idealistic imprint that we've placed upon our children. So once we say
they made a choice themselves.
This is ridiculous.
they broke people.
Messenger of Allah No, Alayhis Salam, not, yes. Oh, my son come aboard the ark. And he says, No, I'm going to swim to the mountain. This is the son of the Messenger of God did No, no one
fell in his God.
He'll come, come, there comes the idealism with which you're bringing the dean, no one's gonna dispute that. But there has to be an acknowledgement that if we are going to be in a particular way with our children, we can contribute
them away, or drawing them in. Okay. If anyone denies that they're not say they will sing. Okay, so let me let me let me be the filling in the cake. Maybe the filling in the cake here. I don't think either of you are really arguing across purposes. Yeah. You know, the point of the matter is, I say this abdulhak Isn't fatherhood and our children the most valuable, you can say asset or thing that we have in our lives, is our children, our dreams, our aspirations, our legacy, our sadaqa jariya are the ones who will make dua for us when we wash out, wash our bodies as we leave this world make generic Are they not the most valuable thing to us? Given that then therefore, the intellectual and
the amount of investment intellectual and social investment that we put into our children should be phenomenal. Right.
And building water him saying I agree
You can be rich, privileged, and have everything but still have enormous emotional baggage and emotional, enormous trauma as well, that you have to deal with. Yeah, we've got to get away from the victimhood, and we've got to break the cycle of behavior. And we've got to become self aware. And we've got to realize our children are the most valuable thing to us. Because all of our aspiration as fathers is this, we want our children to be better than us, to excel than us so that they are truly the legacy that we leave. And so if that is the reason that is enough motivation for us to remove ourselves from and break the cycle of victimhood and this this cross generational
transference of this this these dysfunctional models now I'm going to read out a statement. Okay. When you when you when you when you see this statement, it just reflects what we're talking about. A baby is born into a family, where he is ignored by his father. And this is total detachment when he when he does receive his father's attention. His father constantly yells at criticizes or punches him. For the first two years of his life. This child's mother is perfunctory, attentive, she's not there, but not loving and then abandons him for a year. From time from the time he was born until he is an adult, he witnesses his father's abuse, his older brother, abused his older brother by
terrorizing him verbally. This leads to the older brother becoming a chronic alcoholic, and he dies at the age of 42. Because of this, he killed himself, he sees his broad parents engage in an emotionally neglectful if not emotionally abusive marriage, who is this person.
And this is from Mary Trump's biography on her uncle, Donald Trump. Okay. And that's the point here, this is not about and we are not in no way shape, or form diminishing 400 years of, of trauma of the African American community in no way shape or form. But when we talk about fatherhood, we're talking about a universal concept. And when we talk about this universal concept we're talking about, and fundamentally it's this as a father, I am a product of my own fathering, because that's the only way I learned it. Some aspects were positive, many aspects were negative. I know my father doesn't like to hear I love my father to bits. And I always say this quote from it's from Tom Hanks, film, Road
to Perdition, people, and it goes like this. It's the last line of the film. It's a brilliant film, I recommend anyone who wants to learn about fatherhood, that's the field. It's an amazing field. He says, Tony, what was your father? Like? Was he a good man or a bad man? And all I say is that he was my father.
Fathers are not perfect. That's the whole point here. And all we have to do as fathers. And if forget the fact that the economic system is totally against, forget that we have radical feminism, which is undermining the role of fatherhood. And that in itself can get me counsel much saying that, yeah, forget the whole debates that we have around wherever we are run fluidity or whatever. Forget about the fact that, you know, on a legal basis, as well, the roles of fathers for four years has been undermined. Forget the fact that what we have is such a toxic place online in the manosphere, which is reinforcing even worse aspects. And we're having a balanced discussion here, forget all
that. It comes down to me as a father who fathered introspecting and saying, You know what, I need to be a better father. It's it's as simple as that.
That's good, man. And the bottom line is, at the end of the day, we can argue back and forth. But we also have, we do have to believe in some way, shape or form. I think the only thing is, you know, like, Helios, bro, you're, you're opening gambit was something that I you know, which is I look I taught I actually, you know, I agree, of course, I don't believe that the trauma that you have, either generally generationally, or in your own individual life. Maybe you don't have generational trauma, but your your own life had trauma, like you mentioned Donald Trump, for example. SubhanAllah. But, of course, it impacts you. Of course it does. Right. No doubt at all. And of
course, generally, we believe that what you put into your kids, you will get out. Yeah. But we I again, we you know, we will. And again, I suppose this is, you know, this is what I believe from the dean. And this is what I believe from my own personal experience as well, is that you can put everything into your kids. But the bottom line is you're not actually in the end responsible for their decisions. They're going to reach a stage where they are they become an adult, right. And at that age, when they you know that time when they are an adult, they're going to have to make their own choices. And you can do everything, you can have done everything right. And despite all of that
your kids will take another path and I use it as an example. The son of Noah Alayhis Salam, and that's not the only example. There's many many other exams.
impulse. In fact, you can look at the sons of Sahaba. Right? The Sahaba were the best of people. And unfortunately, some of those their sons went very, you know, did some ugly things, right? So this is just the reality. And I, you know, the I don't want people, the only thing I don't want people to feel is like really disappointed because this is the other thing, by the way. And I've seen it, even from brothers who should know better. Oh, but I, I told my kids everything I and these are balanced. These are extreme people might my daughter was happy with my distance, I think they in their mind, and they did they did everything right yet still their kid went astray. They were an extreme,
whatever, yet still, their kid went astray. So we have to understand that. And that's the bottom line in your stuff. Last thing you said really is the bottom line, you have to do the best that you can right? Educate yourself, do the best you can. But at the end of the day, whatever you do, the result is in the hands of Allah, Allah guides who he wants to guide. Right? We're not ultimately in control of that, and people have to make their own decisions in life. You know, that was great. Just to finish off your altar. Ultimately, I realized that's the way my parents raised me. Right? They very much raised me and my brother, as you know, as free agents, in a sense, you know, at the end of
the day, that's what they that was it would they they. And that was I guess a very strong style of parenting from my parents background is like, you get you teach them your values, you teach them whatever, at the end of the day, they have to make their own way in life. Right. And they have to make their own decisions. You're always there as a parent to support them. But that's it. That's what you've done. So allaahu I think, I think what when we're looking at looking at the context of what you're both discussing,
for example, my group or gang, if you want, South London, all of us bar one or two comprised of single parent families. Okay, parents had either died, the fathers have either died, or divorced or separated. So when we're talking about the death of fatherhood,
if there isn't, if there's a lack of understanding of what fatherhood is in the first place, okay, then that is a disadvantageous point to start start with, in any essence.
Familiar Aspera when?
You've asked already, haven't you? We want to
see up there, hey, this is the point now, okay, and this is what I'm gonna kick back at you. You can sit and Ilyas can spit speak both from points of relative stability and comfort. And I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep kicking back at both of you on this. I'm just asking this question. And speaking from this point, because I know that the individuals that I deal with who are not from my circles, but it resonates with the circles that actually come from, so when coming to the dean now and grappling with marriage, and what fatherhood stands for, is often an alien concept to many of us who have come in because of the upbringing we've had prior to Islam. And that's why I refer back to what I said
about idealism that theme is applied.
Again, I would say this is a universal phenomenon, because you and I know, you know, when you have that young person who you're right, has been whether it's an absent father, or a father they wished was absent or is emotionally absent, physically present, but not really present.
This is why you know, in our work that we've done over the years, yeah, this is why our young men at that critical age when they are going from, from an emotional important transition from a boy to a man seek us surrogate father figure, seek fam la familia in gangs, in cults in all manner of dysfunctional movements. Because that fundamental vulnerability that they have to seek that compassionate father figure, unfortunately, often that ends up being a very abusive person or someone who knows that the deficit that individual has, and then manipulates that with a very, very powerful statement. I am proud of you, son.
I want everyone to realize out there who's listening here, I'm proud of you son is one of the most powerful ways that when a male who's gone through that deficit and unlock your deficit, I totally look, I grew up in South London, I saw it with my black brothers and sisters and friends out there who were in single parent families. I saw it and people thought we came from Pakistani families which had that stable family structure, but there was other deficits in ours. And other him talks about the difference in his head, maybe the stoicism of that stiff upper lip of upper middle class white society. Yeah, all of us have got deficits here. Let's be absolutely clear. Okay, all of us
because of that deficit, then that created the vulnerability for the desperate need that we had for compassionate
father figure. And when we find the right mentor and the right person who fulfills that in a, in a holistic way, in a just way, that's brilliant. I'm afraid it's not there at the moment. And so therefore it's been, it's been filled in the most dysfunctional of ways. There were two really interesting pieces of parenting advice that I received from actually non Muslims over the years. And I remember the first time my when I was expecting my first child, you know, 26 years ago, Mario, big shout out to Mario. And I'm really proud of all my kids, my kids have surpassed me in so many ways for Hamdulillah, which is exactly how I intend wanted it to be. And I remember talking to my
professor back then I was working at Leeds University then. And he told me, they put in the most simplest way, he says, I'm not going to use the word to use he says, You haven't got an F clue what it's going to be like, read all the books in the world do all the research in the world. It's a complete, you know, and what, what always resonated with me, because it's a minefield, and other things, right? You can do everything, right. But you can't control all of the variables.
And so because you can't control all of the variables, sometimes something happens. So the second quote I always loved in parenting was this. You already hold on to your children by not holding on to your children. But if you truly model exemplary and noble characteristics, and you are congruent with them, your children will always model that behavior. By Allah's grace, I always say this, I never ever in 30 years ever told my children to pray, ever. But they all pray 100. Okay, why I never had to tell them to do anything.
I said it's only because of trying to model certain behavior that they model certain behavior.
And this comes down to parenting styles, but a bit later on. Yeah, but you're right. It is an absolute minefield out there. It is really a challenging role. And it's never been made fatherhood at the moment is not being made easy at all. I always liked this quote, as from a guy called Frank Pittman, he goes something like this fatherhood is not something perfect men do. So we can't perfect this role, believe me, but it's something that perfects the man.
And actually, you know, when I hold on to my child, my youngest, I'm reeling, He's not holding on to me, I'm actually holding on to him, I realize it protects me as a man. And I have to continue to learn. And this is where it goes into what are called prophetic parenting. There's a very beautiful Hadith of the Prophet awesome. And it goes like this year that a child would hold the hand of the program to handle the process and Medina, and it would he would drag him, she would drag him all around Medina and he would be so shy to remove his hand even from her. I love that. I love that how that attachment how that responsiveness, how that availability, how that presents? How that giving
so much significance to the child? Yeah, I love I love all of that. And when I seen that hadith, you know, under him, you've made the point that you know, people give so many things to their parents, and especially in our, in our in our Muslim space here. The thing they don't give is actually the content of that hadith.
We micromanage we helicopter parent. We do authoritarian parenting, but what the most powerful thing that we do not give our children a Rama as is exemplified by that hadith that never let go of the hand. You know, that's the thing, I think, which is such a powerful metaphor of prophetic parenting.
Yeah, I think the it's very interesting, bro. But I think there's something I really think I have to I have to mention here. Yeah. And I'm not saying this to dis detract from our topic. And I'm not saying that there is not something specific to fatherhood that we should and we have to explore. But I want to go back again, Helios, to the sort of introduction to how we started this whole conversation and as well as to what you were saying, right. And this is something that I've been going on about for a long, long time. Right. And so like, Aloha, you were sort of saying that, you know, the fatherhood role has been taken away from us. But I don't think it's been taken away from
us. And I'm sort of more I agree with you. But I think we've handed we've handed it over. It's not that it's taken away. We have literally with surrender monkeys. Yeah, though, on the worst flippin level, right. And the first thing you do is by sending your kids to school, that's the first thing you do the first surrender that you do. So we complain, I haven't read this book. I've ordered it. I'm going to read it in sha Allah. Right. But the first thing we do, right, forget your peers, forget peers, right, the peers and whatever. How about something even more insidious? How about something even more nasty? How about something even darker and then
Is that we hand our children over to the state. Or even worse than that, we hand our children over to the corporate mincing machine, because that's all the educational system is right? We hand them over to this, this, this mechanism of materialism, right? And we're complaining about oh, you know, they're influenced by their peers and this and that. That's the least worst thing to worry about. That's the nice flippin thing to worry about, like this book, I'm guessing is just a distraction. Right? From the true reality. Yeah, is that the problem is systemic. The problem is that we're all of this. I mean, you know, all of this stuff going on about, you know, gender dysphoria, you know,
homosexuality, all of those types of things that being now taught in schools is not left to parents. Parents won't teach their children about sex education. Oh, I'm terrified. i This is a non Muslim. I read, like maybe it was five, six years ago, I'm terrified to talk to my kids about sex. I'm so glad the school is doing it for me. Right. Like, but the thing that's happening now, is that literally the state the next thing now, a 12 year olds can agree to get a vaccine despite their parents against their parents consent, right? Oh, my God. Like, what do you want next, and you're talking about all the peers and this and that forget that. This is flippin total state control. Like if we
might as well be flipping communist Russia or China is only just more clever.
And that's the reality guys
is that we are.
So after him the basic and I'll be very quick on this of the healthcare, so under him. So therefore, what we as fathers and mothers and parents have to do in the time that we have regard to it has to be more powerful than all of those societal influence influences, which are so pervasive and overwhelming. And this is what I call, you're absolutely right. This is the failure of the family. And this is as obfuscating and making excuses and everything else here. The point of the matter is, yes, yeah, you have to talk to your children about everything and anything and prepare them for every eventuality that's going to emerge for them. And by not doing that as a father not having that
conversation, not engaging men equipping, equipping them that with the skills and tools that they're required, and we take this approach in the Muslim space, oh, let's just cancel everything. No absolute nonsense. Okay, as a strategy that is not a strategy, which deals with reality. And really, the fundamental failure is us as parents, in our fundamental role as educators, that's what you know, we have to our education, our value system, what we project has to be far more powerful than what is the reality of that outside of the society? Yes, that's okay. I'm with you what you said, that's why I started the show with this. Remember, I mentioned society, not only peers, that was
good, that's, that's, that's a microcosm of what we love. When we look at when we look at the wider thing, it's societal. But what we've got to look at as well, again, I think I'm agreeing with with in the US and what you're saying, we are inadvertently contributing to that handout. But I think there's a bit of push and pull, I think it's been taken from us in one instance, I think we're handing with the other in the other instance. But when I talk about it being taken from us, and us contributing to that, and I'm going to talk about some specific sort of examples here. Inadvertently, in the drive regarding feminism, and the Muslim woman and the targeting of the single
parent, the female single parent, we know societally, legally, that there's a leaning towards mothers with their children. This is something that fathers have experienced for generations now. So there are particular triggers that and language that is used, in which society will jump onto the side of the mother, single parent, on the side of the child. As you've mentioned, a child can get a vaccine without a parent's consent. We've had a young 12 year olds ring in the local authorities, my parents are forcing me to wear hijab, I don't want to the police turn up at the door, this happened in two teen and the child is taken into care or anything just so that she can be awake and liberated
from her parents. So inadvertently, some of us are contributing towards that. Now, let's coming back to that last point that you've mentioned. So Abderrahim, I'm agreeing with you with that on the societal scale. Yes, the education system, everything that's been happening for generations, and is there that the influences the Surrogate Parenting is taking place with regards to everything that you've mentioned already. I totally agree with you on that. But Ilyas on the instance of what you're saying on the example you're citing where you're saying that we need to
to basically get our act together as a family as parents, I agree with you, but I'm going to come back to a particular paradigm and challenge that some have. If you don't know how to be a father, okay? There are children that don't have children and have
a very, very simple no it isn't, it isn't. You are bringing a new life into this world and you
know, our religion prioritizes this fundamental responsibility more than anything else, it's in the Quran. It's in that you know, we are there, you bring the child into this world, if you as a father, you should go through a checklist Am I fit to be a father to bring another life into this world to nurture that as a monarchy, a solid as Southern Georgia? If not
go into business.
I dealt with a 17 year old who is not proper 16 year old today.
Right? And who wants to not marry her? Right? What Glen? What Trump's gonna come out of this. What this function is going to come out of this.
I'm not blaming the kid. And you know, well, who I blame. I blame the parents. Okay, so I blame the parents. You know what you're speaking about their welcome to my world what I
grew up in your world.
So the point is now, you're talking about something with the cart has been put before the horse. So the individuals been a convert, come to the dean, there's a child already there, or they're in love, or they come to the dean with idealism. Okay. And they're told, like our community used to say is, you know, go get married, avoid the fitna everything.
Yes, none of them. Even in our generation, were told or advised what you've just said, now. Now, we are in a position as elders if you like to be able to advise what you say totally. But But as I've said, that the horse has already bolted from the stables the car has already been put before doors. So what you're actually saying now, for a generation or two, okay, it means it's a new point. So we come back to this issue. Now, you've got parents, you've got fathers from these communities, okay, who have come from broken backgrounds who are living with this reality. So when we condemn or damned them, that's only perpetuating an existing problem.
I want to be I want I want to kind of add a bit of balance. Yes, we're passionate about this. Yeah, I deal with this every day. And I'm not saying to innovate. I'm not condemning people or dismissing people. What I'm saying is absolutely, that if you are self enough aware, self aware enough to realize I am a damaged human being and I have certain dysfunctions, you know, what fix up before you transfer your baggage and your dysfunction onto your child because you will, you will. Right? And that's what I'm saying here. Why is it in our community? Let's move on, you know, unlike all of the other communities out there, why is it in our communities alohacare We not only do we dismiss these
parenting programs, we even call them always call for or this and that. And then you take this Amana and this responsibility and remember, I always say this what I do the football talks on it, your children are not your children a lot less than to you. That's right. Allah has many loan your children to you they're Allah's property, and they are an amount of for you to perfect so that they continue in sha Allah as you know, you know, as Holly fulfill orders as better in Allah. Now I can talk about postcode. I live in a particular postcode and I go certain postcodes away into another area. And those parents are doing a better job than the parents in my postcode. Based on what the
simple fact that they'd will adore him said at the beginning, they read up one book, just from one book. One book was enough to say, okay, you know what, I need to now change my parenting style, and I need to use our parents and I've got to see across the whole Muslim space here, it's an arrogance. It's a cultural superiority that we have. It's a failure to actually build upon beneficial knowledge. We just don't even bother checking on our
quickly this year, stop churning out kids and off shop churning out kids. You know what they don't you know what they don't even bother with either. Like when you say one book, I don't even I doubt they even refer to the Quran and what the Quran teaches about parenting. I doubt they even refer to the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, I listened to this book
Brilliant series of lectures. And I just wish I couldn't remember the doctor who his name. I really It's so embarrassing. I don't remember his name. But he gave these amazing series of lectures. And it was a lot to do how the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wasallam behave with children. And I remember us about the thing that stuck in my mind, and
how that there was this incident, where Hasson and Hussein were out playing up in the hills somewhere, right? And the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam saw them. And they were hugging each other. And they were absolutely petrified. And basically, there was a snake, right? And this snake had just, you know, that obviously, they were standing there in front of this snake just terrified, because the snake was about to attack them. Anyway, the Prophet says, I'm anyway, they got away from the snake. And then what the Prophet saw some did is he just took them and hugged them,
didn't say anything, whatever. He just took them and hugged them. And I Subhanallah you know what, I listen to this, and I've tried it since I listened to that. I tried it with my kids, right? You know, I don't want to mention a genuine, put my wife down. But you know, like, when something happens, my wife starts screaming at the kids. And it's like, no, they're already traumatized. They don't need to add. And you really do that you take them, you give them that hug, you reassure them, you don't need to say anything to them. And like it's simple things like this, right? That most of us have no idea and this is our Prophet, this is the messenger of Allah. Like we have a great
example, in the Messenger of Allah, let alone Helios doing other stuff like you know, whatever. Subhanallah we don't even take the guidance of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam. Doesn't everybody know that hadith about the man who was so shocked the Prophet was kissing Hassan Hussein. And he said, We never kiss our children. He said, How will Allah have mercy upon people who not have mercy? Yet? How many Muslim parents how many Pakistani fathers Helios bro never gets their kids never kissed their boys? Yeah, right.
You tell me if you can answer that question for me. And this is the Prophetic example even with a hadith there. So let alone even a book bro. They won't even they won't even take the effort to learn what our own Deen teaches us about good parenting. I think that's a very good point because it's not only Pakistani communities, I would dare say amongst some of us as the black communities, because of the sort of background we've come from as early as Ebrahimian we say the same stables abdur-rahim You know, South London used to give the cook was in Brixton and you know the atmosphere they're so in our communities shedding tears showing that affection even the hugs that we give you as you know,
you come to Brixton you come south and it's that macho sort of hug that you get there's not that there's love there but showing that love is seen as a sign of weakness despite having the prophetic example as you've just said, the above the rain so there is an issue there so why I say again, the title we're looking at the depth of fatherhood.
Is it has fatherhood even began if you didn't know
fatherhood for us by the way we've asked him Yeah, it
would have been good, right the beginning to define the terms we're talking about bro. Okay, okay. So if we look at fatherhood Yeah, look, you know, yeah, there is the fundamental biological role of being the father who provides obviously not for lunch, but not for M shirt Yeah, the basic raw ingredients of suburbia. But then when we look at the fatherhood role obviously we look at provider financial contribution disciplinarian the head of the family
when we say the death of Father Father, yeah, that's the topic what do we mean what is dying? That's what I want to know this fatherhood that is dying. Yeah. And you call it father realisation? The father is that what is the aspect that is actually dying? Obviously, people are still you know, first sperms are still fertilizing eggs.
Right? You know, and obviously there's some sort of presents but when when you say fatherhood or father realisation, and if I talk about what you mean, that's what I what I fundamentally mean. Yeah. And we can look at it at so many levels, either the political, the policy, the socio economic level, the sociological level, the Ioan reduce it down to a very fundamental
themselves have allowed their role as the primary carer what's it called local data actually called Local MRA and local local Missoula, right. You are in you are the guardian who is in charge so fulfill your charge, we are no longer charge what you're saying, bro, sorry.
Can I what you're saying? Yeah. Is that it is a leadership role. That's what it is. That's what it fundament.
Italy is it's a role of leadership, every one of you as a shepherd, you will be asked about the primary role here of fatherhood is that of being a shepherd, of being a leader of being in charge of the flock that has been abandoned and other him the leadership role in itself is open to all manner of kind of you could send an understanding of so let us take it let's take it back to the prophetic leadership. Yeah, of course, how did the process and fulfill go
and being around in charge, first Rama, one that I saw now get into harmony with mercy and compassion. Second, with Justice either, never denying the rights, third as an educator, and not just an educator in terms of inculcating knowledge, but embodying the knowledge, acidic, complete congruence, internal and external states? Yeah. So so this is the real thing. Yeah. Fulfilling that leadership role, that patriarchal role that gawang role, with justice with mercy. You know, there's the verse which actually says that in the law, yeah, I'm gonna be a lawyer. So anyway, tell us in Cordoba Well, Jung Han in Russia, who wouldn't agree what about the Quran? In certain Alia, Allah
commands you to be just with Sr, to world quarterback to those who are close to your family. So be just, and remember, you're gonna be held to account and avoid all of them and prevent them from all of the harms and monger and nobody an opposition. That's your leadership role out there. You know, and and you're right, there is a cultural contamination here of the Rahim I'm Pakistani. So you're right, South Asian parenting, I say is dysfunctional, is a dysfunctional model is not the prophetic model. Worse than middle class parenting has certain very good aspects to it as is, it's not the perfect model as a newer model of the other half as well, as well. There are some positives, but
there are many negatives as well. Ultimately, we go back to the reference and not in an idealized world in a real, practical, pragmatic, realistic way of prophetic parenting. And the prophetic parenting is, you know, Subhan Allah when we when we look at the connection that the Prophet alayhi salatu salam achieved with children, just this one point I want to make here, the Prophet Solomon said, 1/3 of his time is his family 1/3 for himself on third for Allah, the leader of all humanity still need 1/3 of his time for his family. Now, we and fathers today, say I have to be a provider, which means that therefore 80% of my time is occupied in my role of financial provider.
And I know, I can tell you the number of fathers I've had over the years who said, You know what, I wished that I just was not a workaholic. I wished I hadn't spent all my time working. Because now I'm 60 and 70. My children don't even want to know me. Yeah, because the attachment is just not there.
The Prophet alayhi salatu salam prioritize this, okay, in terms of work, life, balance, call it whatever, wherever you want. So the father isolation, the death of fatherhood is because we as far as have allowed ourselves, our role as fathers to become diminished, who said that we are not hands on parents, zero to four who said that? Who said that, that it's the mother's role, or may or may or may only even this hadith is idealized so much, that we always say, oh, leave it to me only know, a B. Father has to play a key role. And this is
the point that Dr. Government and makes us well around discipline as well. We get this kind of division of labor mother, compassion educator and father, as the one who lays down the roles and boundaries, know who said that level of people. The role of discipline, the word discipline is from the word disciple, it means that your child is a student, and you're there to be a solution maker. And that is not the discipline is different from punitive measures, if you have to punish your failed if your disciplining is right, based on the authoritative model that we began, we said, authoritative parenting, which is the Prophetic way I earn my stripes, I earn my my respect, I am
not entitled even to my children, I am not entitled to respect I have to earn it. And when you do that, then you find modeling true modeling of your behavior. They alias on that last point there there's one or two points I want to make. Yeah, I disagree with you on that last point about earning because by virtue of what the Dean tells us and what we're being told in the Quran, and we're being told in the Quran that children cannot say off to their parents and Allah talks about the status of the parents in the in the deen and when Allah mentions the mother and father after him in regarding disability agents, we know from the Allah ma that this indicates the level of the sin in disobeying
the parent in that instance there so what you're saying about earning the respect, okay, I would need
To see that from a prophetic and Dini perspective, and I think that by and this is this is the problem I have, by virtue and maybe I'm old school like that, by virtue of you being parents, and I'm not talking about the parents who have no idea and have just cut children have come into the world, and they're just making mistakes by virtue of you been parents. Okay, that should I'm not saying it does necessarily, that should or it should follow that there is respect in that instance. But again, I'll come back to the first point, from a dean perspective, that respect has to be there automatically. Okay, because I do not see anywhere for in the dean, where it says that the parent
has to earn that respect. Yeah, no, it isn't. Secondly, secondly, it's in Superman. And he's in Superman, because he was Superman. As we know, there's that mat that 10 Verse passage in Superman, when he advises his son, and it is an advice to all of us as the sons of Superman as well, okay. It's the principle is in the no obedience to your parents, if it is disobedience to Allah, that will cause but that's not to say, no, no.
It is because entitlement. As a parent, I have no entitlement. I want my parents, my children to hold me to account that
I agree with you about the content I add, but that I agree with what you're saying that that's not that doesn't answer my question. By virtue of being a parent. Now, you said there's no obedience to the parent, if they're calling you to shirk, of course, no, no. Okay. All right, no, so that's not the same thing. That's that you cannot obey your parents, if they call you to ship, but by virtue of being the parent, okay, there is nothing that indicates that we don't have to respect our parents, I have to earn it from us. No, I do not see that. And that's something that I find difficult to accept. Okay. And also the second point, and where I do agree with you, you've mentioned about what
we as fathers have let go off, but I think you've acknowledged it earlier on the spoke about abdur-rahim himself did earlier on as well, that there are societal constraints that have been placed on that construct of fatherhood. Basically, there's a societal constraint that's been placed on there in the way and we have, we have taken that as a crutch to a, to a greater or lesser extent, as abdur-rahim mentioned, by putting our children into educational institutions by by farming our children out from the family home. But remember, you've got challenges with that as well. You've got you've got the the government and society challenging you, if you are trying to homeschool, we've
seen what's happened with some of the sisters who were doing that with their children. So this is such a huge subject. And I don't think that we're going to come to a conclusive agreement. At the end, it's been quite fiery, I think because we all feel very passionate about father fatherhood. And what we feel is happening to diminish it to strengthen it, where we've dropped the ball. But what I think is very, very important that comes out of this is that this is a subject, the depth of five of the default authorization that you started speaking about the resilient father program that you're bringing up, it's all there. Because this is a thing. The death for if you want the demise, somebody
asked the question, is it murder? Or is it suicide? Again, that's another good question. How would we How is 40 formalisation? How is fatherhood dying? Because it is there is that issue of fatherhood being diminished? But I think guys, you know, like, there's, you know, obviously, I'm sitting here, thinking about our conversation, and there's this elephant in the room. Yeah, there is an elephant in the room. Yeah. And I'm just really interested to hear your points of view about this. Yeah. And the elephant in the room is toxic patriarchy. Yeah. And obviously, this is something now that a lot of people when we talk about depolarization depth of fatherhood, there's, there's a whole nother and
she this is obviously I know, this sounds a bit Marxist Marxist, you know, like Marx had the idea that, you know, history of these clash of two opposing ideas, and then you get this synthesis of these ideas that come out. And so obviously, it may be that the default default authorization and the death of hog fatherhood is a byproduct of the reaction to toxic patriarchy, whatever that is. I mean, I think that the point is, is that there is definitely something
that there has been a toxic and I don't think there's anything wrong with patriarchy, I think, again, it's toxic patriarchy, there's a type of patriarchy that is toxic, that is misogynistic, that has, you know, oppressed women indifferent and still does, right. And so sometimes we have to think about the depth of well, you know, this default authorization and these topics that we're having within that context, but I mean, I think that's a whole different conversation. And I think it's one we
One we should explore, I'd be really interested to hear. I know as I'm sure you've got some ideas about
how they how do you, you know, like, how do you deal with that whole conversation within your training course? What's the name of your training course that you do, bro? It's resilient dad. And look, this is the whole point. Just quickly, where do you do this training, by the way, how's
anyone sends us the email, then we will, we're going to start the program in November. It's a 12 week program is all on Zoom. It's very easy to attend. They're 45 minutes, 1245 minute sessions, and anyone who wants to come, they're all welcome to come. So just drop us your email and we will put your
first signing up for my expert.
You know, I always say this when we have these discussions, what's it do in everything? Yeah. On the middle path in everything, yes. Now what we do is I use this formula polarization plus a vacuum equals reactionary ideas. And that's what we have at the moment, we have this polarization between your right. Okay, you know, radical feminists, and now we have the men's rights movement. And it's creating this poll, right? And really let us not as Muslims fall into the trap of either pot and find the middle ground. Yeah. Which is that both parties have some valid arguments. And let us try to reconcile it with a win win situation. Yeah. So we we are having this discussion, because you
want to fill the vacuum. Otherwise, it's filled with toxic ideas. And look, I'm actually doing a big program on the manosphere at the moment, yeah. And toxic masculinity. Because you're absolutely right. No one's having these conversations, if we don't have them. I'm telling you, there are some really ill equipped and damaged individuals with misogyny, misogynistic, and anti family agendas, by the way here, who are going to fill that vacuum, so we need to talk about it so that we fill the vacuum. Okay, and we talk about it and we talk ultimately about patriarchy, yes. You can't dismiss patriarchy. It's a reality. It's a global reality. When we talk about patriarchy, we talk about it
upon the prophetic methodology. As I said, How did the Prophet he left Islam when he came into his home? And he would say to his family, let me serve my family? Yeah, he and the basic sunnah of battery arc, you could say, is that the leader gives more than he receives. This is the way of the Prophet alayhi salatu. Salam. So you know, so you're right, we need to be actively involved in this whole discourse for so that we put that middle path there. And if we don't, you're absolutely right. And this is part of the reason why we default authorization. Unfortunately, we've allowed the whole debate to become so polarized, and the toxic ideas emerge, and the toxic reaction ideas emerge out
of that polarity.
Anyway, guys, listen, it's been like from my face. It's been amazing guys. I'm gonna have to I mean, if you want to continue the discussion, I'm gonna have to chime out right now. I know, I know what we've come, we've come I think we've taken it to a Chrisette crescendo.
We will continue this alias as usual. I don't know what it is you trigger up there, even when you get triggered anyway.
We definitely, definitely raise the temperature beyond our normal light. You know, it was it was bordering on not getting to civil at.
All I want to say final point for me is this. You know, we as men, we take on many roles. But as far as I say, Father, father, being a father is the most noble role that we play. Absolutely. And I think if you really, really recognize that it's more than a biological role is the most noble and honorable position that I have been given by Allah subhanaw taala. He made me a father. I really look after him. You're absolutely right.
You're absolutely right. I'm passionate as we all are. Because I'm watching children from my community. I think more than yours to an extent, but it's touching upon your community. I've seen children that I saw my wives, putting nappies on them. They're now six foot under in the grave. I'm seeing children grown into men dying, okay, I'm seeing fathers having psychological issues and being
entered into hospital only last week, I was called by for our does, you know, who worked with us on the street. And he was telling me about another brother who was with us, okay, who is now being sectioned. And this is what I'm hearing and seeing over and over again. And when I saw what you saw me get quite passionate. When I see an idealistic wrap around which we were the first to jump upon this idealism after a new member the community. You saw the black community there suddenly become aerosolized. And we thought this was soon now and we're doing everything. So all of that's happened. And then the realities come that hold on. You're not accepted within that particular community.
You're not accepted within that particular community. You come back
to your own community, and you need to try and shape who and what we are. And as a father in that we have children with nowhere to send them with stereotypes that have been compounded by fervor stereotyping within the Muslim community. That's a mind trip, my brothers, so fatherhood within all of that, when you're already lost as you've come into the dean, it's something that is just causing devastation to different levels, the result of which we're only only beginning to see now other than those of our children were dying. So that's why I've been quite passionate about placing Dean context, idealism and realism all in the same construct. No, no, no, totally, totally with your own
upbringing. Yes, just to remind you,
it's been it's been a blast, a blast.
And inshallah you're gonna have to be back on soon to be ready for this. And I'm always really broke. And we can talk about I think we need to start talking about toxic masculinity, I think patriarchy. Absolutely. Um, maybe next week, maybe next week in Sharla. Okay, I'm not for sure. After Hey, would you say
it would be a great follow up conversation to combine that with this because I think one reflects a little bit on the other. Absolutely. Yeah, I'm happy to do that. Definitely. And once again, bro, shout out, bro that that course is starting in November against
just give us your emails and all it's free and 12 modules Hamdulillah we give you so many material. We give you a phenomenal amount of material. So please send an email to info at stream islam.co.uk resilient dads. So brothers especially out there in Sharla I'm going to join Helios in Charlotte and send you an email myself in short, I'll jump jump on there as well so abdur-rahim and I can cause more fireworks for you as our teacher
recorded as well so we can give you the recorded content as well. Yeah, brilliant. Yeah.
For your wonderful company Al Hamdulillah
for joining us and to everyone who's participated and contributed and watched and I think as no one needs to be alarmed the three brothers in your screen who love each other for for Allah sake dearly, so please do not think that the fireworks or anything and inshallah what we're doing next week we're going to continue and this has been Abdur Rahim Ilyas it's been a piece of cake. And see you next week in sha Allah