A Peace of Cake Podcast SPECIAL
Channel: Abdurraheem Green
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Episode Transcript ©
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Salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh and welcome back to what promises to be another lively and interaction interactive discussion between beloved brothers on this edition
and first I will ask the one in the red corner to introduce
our brother via slyly COMM And he in the red corner on the top left hand of the screen as I'm looking at at it is none other than Well, I guess that's me guys. I'm very hungry. Your brother in Islam. I'm very hungry. And over there, wait a minute that yeah, that way. Yeah.
Our esteemed star Doctor professor.
We'll start Helios Kimani. Thank you beautiful. Over there is Dr. Abdullah Baker. MashAllah we've again our guest aliases, Abdur hematite, lighted taking center stage masala, Brock Allah. And as you the viewers from last week will have recorded record, we felt it necessary that last week's discussion on the death of fatherhood, and a very lively debate, as we've mentioned, be followed by today's discussion, manhood versus toxic masculinity. And I want to throw it right out there now and ask asking our brothers abdur-rahim in the ass.
What is manhood first? How do we define manhood? And according to what
categories or criteria abdur-rahim
Oh, I thought you're gonna I'm gonna throw
you can differ you. You like you caught me. With my anyway, bro. So yeah, so hamdulillah manhood? Yeah. Gosh, I mean, I don't you know, I to be honest, you know, I? I haven't really I mean, this subject.
I'm more interested in toxic masculinity, from the point of view of what is the origin of this idea of toxic masculinity? Where does it come from? And, yeah, how much can we agree with from the Islamic point of view? So? I don't know. I mean, for me, you know, what does it mean? Being a man is very similar to what does it mean being a father, but I guess? You know, it's, again, it's to do with qualities of leadership. I think that's something that is intrinsic to manhood, I think a part of manhood is it's taking responsibility. That's a lot to do with that. And it's, I think manhood, you know, is about being a thinking thoughtful,
less on impulse, and much, much more on a process of rational thinking. And well thought out behavior patterns, I would say that's key. And if there's something that is supposed to make a man stand out, surely it must be that it must be his ability to rationally look at things in a relatively unemotional make an emotional or relatively unemotional. I don't think humans can be totally unemotional. It's not possible and it's not desirable. But I say relatively that that that I guess those are the essential characteristics that really set men apart. That's my that's my foray into this particular discussion.
For this particular throwing it at me thanks I'm too hot because I had to throw you threw you under the bus in that
flipping delay role
Excellent, no disaster lucky. I think that's the premise that tone in Yes. What would you say concerning that on top of Abdur Rahim,
I think look from the Quran perspective.
First Allah sees very clearly in current one is that the male is not like the female. So there's basic biology vichara insert, and that kind of info is actually in the Arabic language refers to obviously, private parts as well. Yeah. You know,
So fundamentally, there is a recognition of biology. And then from that Allah is making it absolutely clear, qualitatively, uniquely different creatures. And I think this is very important that we believe in two agendas. And that's it absolutely, fundamentally, that. And then the concept of next what builds on is that we have the basic biology that is nurtured. So the real question is, what does it mean to be a man to be original? And I remember one of my co stars, he said it brilliantly once. He says, We have males but not men. And I love the way that he put that and so the concept of the child and Nisa is the the social construction really, is based on the socialization,
cultural, nurturing, and development, social, political, and most importantly, I think, when we talk about the crisis, the more it goes away from prophetic guidance, and the more is defined, obviously, fundamentally in materialistic terms. And the crisis has always been there the crisis of masculinity in every single age, because you either have masculinity constructed by the best of men, who are as Allah Tala makes it absolutely incredibly clear in the crown warmer or sunnah Kamala in the job and Louis, and not only that Allah sent on via and Russell He sent men as messengers who were inspired, embodying noble characteristics of masculinity. And in my research, what I did is I went through all
26, Umbria angles, and I extracted every single one of the defining qualities. And I've got that whole list. I call it prophetic masculinity. And so then it comes on to and this is, I think, just finishes the discussion because really the question of the crisis is because we fundamentally got away from Walmart, Zillow says, look, look at Ken and the confusion that he swore to Hasina, the best example, the embodiment of masculinity. Whenever I hear these discussions in so many different panels, whether it's Muslim or non Muslim panels, yeah, in particular, more than the Muslim space, and I think I don't even here I'm going to talk about toxic masculinity and crisis of masculinity
and the construction of masculinity and just about any other. The Prophet alayhi salatu. Salam is the ultimate embodiment of what it means to be a man. And he came about in Nicaragua, holy king of being the most exalted in character, who came as in Hadith, but is truly autonomous, a government a club established noble characteristics, he exemplifies masculinity. And this whole science of what we call oil Marula oil for to the science of what it means to be a man, unfortunately, we become very disconnected from it.
So this comes down to why I chose this in my thesis to actually focus on this. And I start off in the first paragraph of my thesis, I said, when I look back on it, being a man is probably one of the most powerful influences in my whole life. And it shapes so much of what it is about me on an emotional, psychological, physical, biological, it goes on and on. Yeah, I had no formal instruction and what it meant to be a man
had no one sitting me down and actually giving the formal lessons. This is what it means to be masculine truly. So therefore, me as a 70s, and 80s child growing up in those formative years, I realized my construct came from two things, one, looking at the men in my own life, and their cultural paradigm. And it wasn't particularly great have to say.
And the second thing was the predominant media of the time, which back in the 70s, and 80s, film, drama, whatever it was, yeah. And then third peer influence. So essentially, when you talk about the construct one of the most powerful aspects of me as a man, my masculinity, what Allah Tala refers to in the current original color, Mona Lisa, it's being shaped by all of these very, very dysfunctional influences. And it took me even even in during my period of being in Islam, it was my own self discovery of saying, You know what, I'm going to look at what is prophetic masculinity.
And I'm to find out what the sciences of Madhu all for to true nobility of being a man to actually start to then actually realize, you know, subhanAllah, this whole contamination of machismo bravado of materialism, and fundamentally, this is the dichotomy that we have, we have masculinity are shaped fundamentally by market forces where men are reduced to an economic unit, or we have to elevate ourselves to that, and actually seek prophetic masculinity. So the question, the question is, what does it mean to be a man, thank you, for that elicits us like it. I think both of you've made some very, very profound statements that we can unpack and build upon that. And abdur-rahim You
said something was really interesting
on the perception of manhood, and balance, and leadership and focus. So let me ask,
Ken, in contrast to that, then the man who's emotional, highly emotional, highly
Strong reactionary. Does that detract from
his masculinity? Is that a contrasting thing to the construct that, that you've you've highlighted? Because it's a good construct, but is there? Is there something that diminishes
or destroy what diminishes? I absolutely think it does.
Why? Absolutely. Basically, I mean, the things that made me think, you know, well, what makes me think along these lines, right, are the, you know, the the, I could say, the infamous verses right of the Quran about how a man goes about disciplining,
you know, well, yeah, disciplining his wife. Right. And just the sheer I mean, just opening that topic. Yeah. The fact that there is a, it seems to be, if I haven't misunderstood this, I may have misunderstood it. But it seems to me that, since a man has that leadership responsibility within the family that Allah has given him that Allah has made men, the maintainers of women, maintainers and protectors of women, that he has that position of a membership or leadership position, right. And I would suppose just as a government
has, you know, an understood permission and accountability to, you know, keep law and order, in the same sense that that is the man's responsibility in the family.
And so I remember reading about, you know, even a verse is that, you know, the main theme, however, is contrary to what one may think, is that the man has to be extremely patient, his process of trying to, you know, put his wife on the right path is one of patience of advising of, you know, admonition is a very, very, you know, so that it's a patient, it's a process that by its very definition demands a lot of patience is something that takes time years even it may take in order to
make those you know, those corrections that he that he will have a responsibility for. So, that is completely in the opposite of the type of reactionary violent behavior, that a man just loses his temper, freaks out, starts, you know, assaulting members of his family.
And that is completely that is not how a man should behave that is completely contrary to the what is real manhood, right? And so we know the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam never, you know, he never struck his wives, he never laid a hand on his family, right? He was extremely patient. We know accounts of Ayesha arguing with the Prophet arguing with him. Yeah, very, very strongly, to the extent that he had to bring in Abu Bakar in one occasion to come and intervene to sort out the argument. And then I will bucker he actually, you know, he actually laid hands on on his daughter that the Prophet intervened, and said, No, we didn't ask you. I didn't ask you here for that. I
didn't ask you to do something like that. Right. And then, you know, as famously, you know, when when, when his father when I should father left the Prophet turnarounds, and you see how I saved you from him, right? So that light hearted about the point being looked at? So like, if you want the real embodiment of manhood, you look at the Prophet, you look at how people abused him, you look at how people mistreated him. You look how the roughest people Bedouins, you know, like a person would grab his you'd be walking by the grab his cloak to take his give me that Muhammad, you know, and the Prophet said, if I had anything else, I'd give it to you, but I need this to cover me. You know,
this is his patient. Subhanallah you know, I don't want to go too much. But you know, there's another example of tight you know, what happened at times when he was pelted with stones? And you know, what was his attitude? The angels said, We will destroy these people. And the Prophet said, No, maybe their descendants will be guided to Assam. This is what we're talking about. This is manhood. This is a real
patience. This is
This is intelligence. This is not emotional, responding, cursing, and you know, violence and SubhanAllah.
Prophet to violence that it was absolute last resort that brings to mind that that hadith as well. Abderrahim about the strength to strong one is not the one who can overpower people, his physical strength and anything just from one issue keeps himself calm at times of anger. So that's in line with what you're saying there. Yeah, I agree. I think that's why I asked you that question on what what is the converse
have the strong man does it detract when someone is losing their temper? I don't think what you're saying there Abderrahim means that a man can't be passionate a man can't be angry but what you're saying if he goes to the extreme of the violence and total loss of control that he detracts from, from his manhood, but there's some really good and interesting comments that are coming up from viewers and I want to say well they can salaam to all of you, Kira Octavia, all the Malahat ama all of you there, John John Fontaine has joined us again as well. And he gave a very classic Don Corleone quotation as well as the one who doesn't spend time with his family. And we have that lads
culture that we know about from from a Western perspective.
What I would ask Ilya is as hearing what Abdur Rahim said and what you've said about the prophetic
character that's there regarding manhood, some brothers have put forward that when women behave badly, for example, you don't hear of toxic toxic femininity. Okay, you had earlier comments that came in before as well. There isn't such a thing of TOC as toxic masculinity, masculinity, in and of itself cannot be toxic. But there's a perception.
Let's jump into that now. Well, I'm not toxic.
As I said, you know, this whole idea of crisis of of gender of roles, and what is it? What does it mean to be a man be a woman be a fundamentally define yourself as a human being this existential crisis? You're right, we are experiencing this. At the moment in the world, there's a fundamental crisis between those people who define themselves, as I said, in terms of faith values, in terms of prophetic values, and those people who are defining themselves in terms of materialistic values. So you're right. But I'm going to add something a bit more about what we call so called toxic femininity, yeah. Because let us let us make it absolutely clear that men, Allah makes it in the
Quran that our societies are patriarchal. And this is part of the dichotomy, what we have is that we have radical feminism, which is against all forms of patriarchy. And then we have the reaction to that with the manosphere and very toxic masculinity movements who basically then dismiss all of the rights of women. Yeah. And as we said, was it here in everything before a middle path. Now Allah Allah makes it absolute clear, or regional government and Elisa that the man has a colon,
Allah's ultimate infinite wisdom, Allah Subhana Allah put man in charge. And again, he has looked at the prophetic example of how the profit cells are administered, Gawain, I break it down into three characteristics I've identified and I use this in management training as well as in if you exemplify these three characteristics, you will find that you, you you, you will create followers, the first in the profit solar, some lead with knowledge, evidence, facts, and this is actually one of the qualities of all of the ambiance is this is the number one quality of masculinity, to be an educator to be a teacher, to base your life based on knowledge and understanding and facts, not based upon
your own whims and desires and your own emotional reaction and things like that. So the prophesy Olson was an educator, He taught his family he taught his wives, he taught you on behalf of the Mormon, you lead by example, number two random woman has some negative material element, the amount of Hadith that we have on the mercy of the process, and it's just phenomenal. And the Prophet selsun was serving his families and the basics of that Rama is that the Prophet Alayhi Salatu was Salam serve others before he served himself. Third either justice in Allah Yama will address what exactly what you're trying to call it by process and administer justice, with SI with excellence to those
who are what will you call about those close to him? If you have ill adult Rama, believe me, the reaction that you will get from the females who are obviously in your column will be nothing other than devotion and following to the ends of the earth. And so when we see a toxicity in females, it is basically a manifestation of I say an appeal. I'm not gonna say it's a manifestation of the poor leadership of men. But they are not administering with other than the last point building under him said about emotional. It wasn't that the Prophet Ellison wasn't emotional he was, but he had immense emotional control and emotional intelligence. And this is again masculinity, the Hadith which
exemplifies it more than anything else is when the Prophet alayhi salat wa salam lost his son, Ibrahim, and he's crying. And one of the companions of the management it comes to me Ya Rasulullah sallallahu What is this? He says, this is Rama. This is mercy. The eyes and the Hadith. I shouldn't sit here. The Hatfields sedima Sadness, but the tongue never says anything which disobeys Allah. That is the embodiment of emotional control, balance and perfection. The prophets of Allah some said, You can cry, it's okay. But you keep it all within limits. Because you need as many you know what part of what's toxic about men is the stoicism. Keep it in, don't cry.
So don't let it out. Don't show weakness No, show weakness, but keep it within a limit. Because you're not why? Why is it that on a global level, that the main source of death for men from 18 to 45 is suicide? We have 800,000 suicides every year globally. So main source of death for men 18 to 45. Why and not with male male suicide? What do we learn? Everyone always says, I just finished a big project on suicide just now suicide prevention, what they always say is that we never know knew that he was going through this.
You've got to let people in on feeling bad, I'm having a bad day, I'm in the zone of distress, so that the appropriate support network is there for men and it's not weakness, its strength, because it's about emotional control and emotional intelligence. Let me come in there. I think that's really good that you mentioned that
earlier is because you know, yourself the work that we've done in St. And through throughout the last 30 years, whatever. What has before Lynn, black community, so I'll come back to that I have to as a black man, no, no, I'm telling you, and be one step before the suicide is the emotional mental trauma, you know, the nervous psychological breakdowns, you know, the the section in into hospital, because the culture that we come from, as I mentioned in previous weeks, is one not to show emotional vulnerability, or tears, even to our wives that our partners are women. And more often than not, that comes out in a negative form, very harsh, a disciplinary to children, or harsh with
each other in how we communicate. So that one step before suicide is mental breakdown. That happens amongst black communities. So I'm bringing that in, because
these individuals going through this are very, very much men and masculine. Okay, but not always understanding that paradigm of prophetic manhood. They have aspects of it, but the emotional side, they've not been used to sharing,
cultivating in that way, and they say the same thing. abdur-rahim, I'd say in the English culture, I'd say in Asian culture, where you've got to keep the stiff upper lip, and you're supposed to go out and be the provider. And if you're not providing and doing all of this, then you're not a real man. And so I think that all of us can identify with that sort of expectation that's there. But what I'm going to come back to now, if you ask us what you said, and some may, we're here in this may feel all they're talking from a point of patriarchy, but you already set the tone for that. One of the things that may be said or may come back to us in this discussion, is that okay, you said or
reject the color man, color Munna and this app, we spoken about the physiological differences and all of this, and the women being looked after and nurtured and protected and kept safe. Part of the toxic femininity that you've
alluded to in the US, I would say is a flip, afflicted some of the younger generation of Muslim women because now you see this pull back
from this, all of this is not only patriarchal, but it's misogynistic. And no, we are equal in every sense of the word. And these these these verses are what are they relevant, they need to be changed, which we can't do as we know that'd be coffer to do that. So I want you to address that because somebody is amazing. Yeah, and this obviously that's, you know, in Islam we don't get one textual proof to the exclusion of all the others. Yeah, so it's important
that properly selected Islam made it very clear so many Hadith is toxic in this Africa treat women with kindness and if
you made it clear that you said the best of you imagine investing hostile work, you are comfortable in the same and the best or you are the ones who invest in their conduct with the women. But these two verses of the Quran I think really kind of contextualize it more than anything else. You see. The problem in the West is this or you know, on a global level, actually, is that men and women have been basically put against each other it's almost polarizes men against women and women against men. Yeah. Now, what's interesting is the Islamic paradigm is actually men and women are having the same common objective one, and the first installment is our one mimouna Walmart Mina to buy the home
earlier. Yama Luna Bielema roof we are now now Anil monka where you came on the seller while you tuna Sokka or your own Hola Hola, su like Segata como la who in Allah has is gonna give it's beautiful. You see, this verse came down Allah put men and women in women will not even mention revelation. Look at all of the Reverend God do comparative religion analysis, you'll find the Quran is the only book which refers to men and women together. Why
mimouna One more minute as equivalent and even we have a chapter on this, the women and also William and Anessa begins with women have rights Allahu Akbar This is unprecedented This is an and and so the point I'm making here is Allah Tala says well meanwhile manga back home only the believing men and women are only help us friends and protectors of one another ie our whole objective is partnership with one objective to worship our Creator so fundamentally it recognizes qualitative difference roles responsibilities division of labor all of these things divinely revealed. Okay and yet perfect perfect complement Tality to achieve our objective and obviously that doesn't mean a
free for all of them in in being able Yeah, obviously within the limits of the Sharia as well Yeah, then the verse which is inserted I'm gonna say this is probably the most beautiful person and so there can't be toxic masculinity when you have a verse like this. The Tafseer of in centralized adversity five is beautiful. On Solomon said to the Prophet li salat wa salam The mere fact that you can say this to the Prophet so just shows you how he empowered his the Omaha to mean his wives and the leaders educators and teachers and I'm Solomon was a woman of enormous intellect as suhu they be the Treaty of Libya tells us Yeah, she's ended the process and why is everything for the women or
men not for the women and then Allah revealed he revealed this to him while he's in the masjid and then he calls up to celebrate and who is resides in nanoemulsion Amina one Muslim at one point meaning in one minute while quantity and one quantity was saw the gain was so there was Savina was started with one question in a while hotshot one motor said the key and one motor said they thought was saw immune was saw image while happy doing a photo to him all happy that was Kadena la Kathina ones that do not have the luxury of him. And it's beautiful. You said for the believing men and believing woman for the righteous man for the righteous woman for the upright man in the upright
with the triple Mandra. And it goes on and on like this for the fasting man for the fasting woman. Complete equivalence before Allah subhanaw taala in terms of reward in terms of
in punishment, for if they disobey Allah to Allah, everything equivalent. That's why we have equal pay legislation in Islam for the men and women for the same job. Okay, and then Allah Allah finishes by saying for them, Allah, Allah has prepared for them forgiveness, and a great reward. Now, so this is a context. So let's be absolutely clear. However, despite this, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah has recognized qualitative differences between men and women, and then gives them the appropriate role. So they can excel in each other's fields and their own respective spheres of influence, they can excel. It's like me, for example, if I given the analogy, if I, for example, took a refuge
collector, and there's no disrespect, because they play a fundamentally important role in society, and they do brain surgery. The person I'm deeply oppressing that individual, and that's going to cause harm in society and poor people, because they're not qualified to do that. Even with no training, and perhaps not. And it's likewise we have qualitative difference between men and women, and there has to be a fundamental recognition of that. However, as I said, when it comes to leadership, as I said, when it comes to the leadership of the properly so let us learn these qualities knowledge, mercy and compassion, justice. And I challenge anyone, your leader, this
administers those three qualities with you, what will you do? You will do nothing other than follow that person. And likewise, if you have a just man like this, and an honorable noble man like this, okay, what does a woman do, except find that there is a natural Qalam that she naturally follows that leadership like that. Now, people want to deny that or reject that or not accept that, and that reflects the actual chaos and confusion of Third way thinking that we have now as we become everything, there is just no.
Everything at all behaviors become fluid and relative. Yeah, so anything goes now in our current environment? Yeah. And and that's part of why we have so much polarized toxicity between men and women. And there's no
what I said that effect is that just as lucky, so as an attorney, I'm looking at you, as mentioned the point where with those three characteristics that if
a female is showing toxicity in that instance, it's more of a reflection on the man's inability with regards to leadership. And to an extent I will agree with that. But wouldn't you agree that society now and so no, you would subscribe to that, and we're seeing the comments from viewers, society has really driven that narrative of causing polarization. And not only causing pulled pork, causing polarization, as you've highlighted, but from within other things into the mix. Now, we're about gender fluidity and everything like this. And I was reading an article in The Guardian. I think it's this morning, where there's an uproar because transgender
individuals are being prevented from participating in the normal binary, shall I say gender athletics, and some are saying this is discriminatory against them and everything like that. So not only have you got the polarization, but you're now being called to a another way, a totally different way which has been imposed upon our children. So,
toxicity of masculinity, or the perception of toxic masculinity is perpetuated. When individuals like us, I would dare say say, No, there's only two genders. We don't accept that. Like, we're like, what's his name, the comedian, and very recently as stood up, David
Chappelle is being bombarded now. Because he said that gender issues, gender issues, gender is an issue, there are only two genders. So that only perpetuates that, that that that accusation of toxic masculinity because what society is now throwing upon us foisted upon us were rejecting and saying no, male or female. So even more so than saying, Look at this. This is toxic masculine masculinity right there. abdur-rahim Do you agree with with some of the points? Yeah, bro. I definitely agree with pretty much everything you said. And I think I mean, I'm, I am interested in the issue of toxic masculinity. Because I do think like with many things, there is a genuine problem. And that sort of
reflects on our conversation.
You know, our conversation last week, there is a whole culture of machismo, right? Like, for example, especially in South America, I don't know, I don't know now. But I know, when I was younger, you know, there was a very strong culture in South America of machismo.
You know, like, it really was toxic to the extent that, you know, people would shoot each other for looking at a person in the wrong way, this whole idea of, you know, like, what it meant to be a man. And there was a streak of, you know, misogyny in it. And there was a whole with it came a raft of abusing women and mistreating women, and so on and so forth. And, you know, it's like a very big subject that does interest me, because I do think that in many ways, shape or form, even within our culture, Islamic civilization and Islamic society, there is a real genuine conversation we have to have about how much has patriarchy? How much has the sort of customary, traditional, I don't know
what how to call it. Yeah. But you know, the way that men and women have interacted and the way that men have treated women, is it necessarily a lot of the stuff that we have? Is it really from our religion, what how much is from the religion? And how much is really a product of culture and circumstances? I think that's a big question. It's big questions I've had, we've had this conversation before, Abdullah, this is a big question. You know, as the father of daughters living in the world today, like I've had to ask myself some very, very big, profound questions. Right. And my big concern, just to finish into that, I mean, it's a huge conversation. That's what I would
really be interesting. I especially Helios, I'd love to hear is both of you to your opinion on what I'm asking about.
But But I think the one thing that does worry me is that it's when something is agenda driven. And I think there is something in the article some of the articles you sent me, and this is Wikipedia and spectator. You know, it seemed to indicate to me that one of the issues that has been one of the issues that provoked this whole discussion, or this whole labeling of toxic masculinity was that was the gay homosexual issue. So that one of the things they labeled as being toxic masculinity was a sort of dislike or revulsion, or I don't know how to describe it for homosexuality.
And, and it seems to me that when something is driven by an agenda like that, I get I get very immediately alarm bells start ringing, right. Because sometimes I think that a narrative is being invented, literally invented in order to justify the the normalizing of things that we just can't agree with, that we know is, you know, an act of transgression against the commands of God. Right.
And so this is a concerning for me. And so when I see something that seems to be driven by agenda, we can see that the again, I'll finish on this is that you can see the the attempt to ally
I mean, the whole issue of LGBT with racism, right? And they're completely different things like, they're completely different. But there is this very, very strong agenda to align the two things as if they are one and the same. And they're all part of the same type of prejudice. So it's a massive conversation, obviously. And, and just to sort of make one point about that, without going on too much, is that like, this doesn't no one's promoting in any way, shape, or form, you know, like, violence being up people, you know, or even really being extremely unpleasant to people because of their sexuality or whatever like that. Then again, it goes back to
being a true man. Right? It's been, you know, not not having the sort of over the top emotional response to stuff, right. But yeah, that's it, basically. So my main concern is, what is the agenda over this toxic masculinity? And how much has tried to summarize it? How much is traditional patriarchy interpreted our interpretation of the religion? Right, but just
before I let you jump in, I know you're gonna have a really good structure around to these two points. And Raheem, you're absolutely right. And the question is this only for 18 plus, now it's not it's for all ages, mashallah parents or guidance allowed, but abdur-rahim on the point of what you said there with regards to the homosexuality and even terminology homophobia, we're not afraid. There's no phobia in that incident is exactly as you said, it's what is religious, what is faith led against an agenda that is a social construct, and they're pitting them against each other and making the former religious, orthodoxy and beliefs extreme, while what is extreme is been made more
mainstream, and nothing other than that, more recently, we saw that with the Black Lives Matter organization, which no one should subscribe to. Because when you look at the ideology of that is exactly what you said abdur-rahim that they came in with black lives matter from a few years ago, people globally black, white, and subscribe to it because of the title. Okay, but when you looked at the ideology, that was an LGBTQ driven agenda, and what it did, with all of these things, when you lump these causes together of racism, and like, you diminish the primary cause and obscure it. And that's what happened with with racism that happened with the George Floyd instance, that's happened
over the years since the Civil Rights Movement, since the 70s, lumping these movements together. So you get that here, you get that you get the minority groups that when you say gay, lesbian, black, ethnic minority, they bring them all together, diminishing the original cause. So I agree with you totally on that. Before I hand back over to him. Yes, what you said come from the point of, is it cultural religion after he knew and I as converse, we saw what our eyes were wide open when we came in, that what we saw being touted as religion in many of the communities that we moved amongst, which was South Asian, and I know in the US was subscribed to that, because he was one of those who
we met who was sort of this is amazing, we've met someone upon the Sunnah, who's not subdued by these cultural aspects, but we saw culture was being put forward as the religion and it clearly clearly was nothing to do with the religion and continues to be that case. FGM, for example, forced marriages and in these exams of misogyny being being the the driving force, and being called patriarchy. So you're absolutely right up to him knowing and divided into these two very, very clearly is, is necessary because it's confusing young men is confusing women is confused in society looking in, at what's happening, and saying this is a misogynistic religion in the US has given
versus you've given examples where this religion is not misogynistic, patriarchal, yes, but so I'm gonna hand it off. I think I think what I'm gonna do, I want to establish a principle for the benefit of everyone in sha Allah to the best of mobility. Now, the verse in the Quran is very clear or cathartic. Most of the corners are done and as we all know, sooner or later China, and we have made you the middle path. Okay, you know, we have made you the middle, justly balanced nation, to be witnesses for mankind and the Prophet alayhi salatu salam is a witness of the EU. Now, the reason why I mentioned this is because of their hand what you're talking about is essentially the
weaponizing of identity politics. We have a whole range of identities out there and Muslims don't should not fall into it. That's why I don't subscribe to a lot of Muslim identity politics movements. And you know, because it again, they falling into the same trap of basically just pitting themselves against other identities and then it becomes basically a free for all in terms of who gets political influence to actually weaponize their particular identity and then it becomes polarized against that
Let's Yeah, we are not an identity. We aren't a dean a complete comprehensive way of life here. Now, so we can go at length about whether it's based on the LGBTQ lobby or the, you know, radical feminist lobby or whatever. But I want to kind of transcend all of that, because we always return back to the paucity of prophetic masculinity and how the public and that allows us to dispense with culture, and dispense with what the current kind of contemporary debates are, and people talking about their own opinion in going to the actual novel characteristics of the best of men, and particularly the Prophet sallallahu ism. But now I want to kind of move on to really getting back to
the core of the discussion about the crisis of masculinity because you, irrespective of this dichotomy, in this polarized debate, there are some real things that we as men need to recognize. Philip Zimbardo has written an amazing book on it. There are two brilliant books on it. First is the new manhood by Steven Biddulph, which is an amazing book. Yeah. And Steven bit off provides a really balanced approach to what's going on with contemporary masculinity. And then there is Philip Zimbardo of the famous for the prisons. Stanford Prison Experiment is both man disconnected. And he talks about the demise of guys. And let me just tell you what flip somebody might have what brought
the demise of the might the demise of guys, okay, there's a rise of guys. Okay, yeah, but it's gone. Man disconnected, two really good books. Now, Phillips and Bardos research is based on a sample of 10,000 American males. And this is what he basically says. He says, By the age of 21, the average American male has spent 10,000 hours surfing, gaming and watching porn. And he says this has had a profound effect on neurologically rewiring their brains, and almost dumbing down their emotional centers. It almost completely annihilate the emotional centers of the amygdala and the frontal cortex. And this is why He says when you look on a global level, and you look at the indicators
around men, and I've just mentioned some of these indicators, men have lower life expectancy, men routinely fail at relationships 90% of the acts of violence in the world that perpetrator men, and 70% of the victims of them are the men 90% of the children with behavioral problems in school are boys. Okay, three times more likely to die from preventable causes motor vehicle accidents, etc, etc. 80% of the homeless 90% of the prison population, the leading cause of death for men, as I said, 15 to 45 is suicide, mental health, physical health, mortality, men need all the statistics, just being a male, is the biggest risk issue of all, it is a real challenge that we have. And so
what both Steven Budoff and what
Phillip Phillips of Bordeaux saying is yes, there is something fundamentally going wrong in our society, in comparison, and I'll finish with this point, because this is really shows the challenge that we have in terms of a crisis, and I see this here in Bradford in the UK, on a global level, women are doing much better than men on an educational and vocational level, especially in the OECD countries. And that's brilliant, amazing. And we do not in any way, shape or form want to curtail that, you know, but men are doing no one if you look at the attainment levels, and what he talks about by the age of 21, the dumbing down of boys, the disintegration of the emotional how porn,
hyper sexualized society, negative male role models, negative peer influences, drugs and alcohol, okay, hyper sexualized society, and you just look at all the constructable that they're being exposed to in terms of gaming, et cetera, et cetera. They're doing nowhere near as well as females. We're not, let's just say that we want an equivalence and the facts are all there in his book. He's talking about on an educational and vocational in the sociological level. So therefore, what we're talking about is emasculation basically, no, no, no, no, no, it's more than that. It's a profound asymmetry that we have at the moment. And when we have this asymmetry, and we are not teaching boys
noble characteristics, how on earth do they assert a one? Because we're not teaching them the prophetic world? In other words, so all they is likely is if the only tool in your box is a hammer than what do you use? And that's the profound crisis that we have. And I see it here in the UK, in our communities.
And this is
why I want to get away from the whole discourse around radical feminism and the manosphere and Insell movements and everything else. I want to get away from that, to actually look at the real look of the human I know, we've worked in Feltham. Okay, I've worked Do you know, 80% of the kids in Felton are Muslim? Yeah, we know that the first time ever, Black and Asian boys are the majority of young offenders here in the UK. There's something profoundly wrong in what I said that right from the beginning, sitting down and mentoring our boys on what it means to be a man. So
come back to the point of
Now the inability of the human
being cold one and Columbian response now, is it an inability that is from only from them and not having the tools to do that? Because there's an assumption that in asserting that there's a dominance that needs to be implemented? Shouldn't it be a societal
condition or environmental sort of readiness for them to slip into that position? If you understand what I'm saying, even Buddha puts you in such an articulate what he says we can't expect boys to be good men if they don't see good men. Right? That's, that's, I think that's at the heart of what you're saying here. Tragically, you know what we spoke about larger cross generational transference of trauma from three generations from male to male to male. And also we see we see a transference of toxicity unfortunately, and we don't see a breaking of the cycles of behavior. So that's part of the challenge here. But as I said at the beginning, you remember having the class and what it means to
be a noble man, okay, and what it means to have noble characteristics as a man. Instead what we're having is this we define masculinity and this is the current market first in terms of sexual prowess. You know, the guy who has lots of girls and whatever in sexually active start, don't wanna do the workshop. We're not doing the workshop kids, they bring out all the terms. He's the geezer. He's the bloke, he's the one he's that, you know, he's not a sloth or slag or or a hole or whatever is he is the man. Next physicality, you've got to have the six pack we have enormous body dysmorphia amongst kids now in the moment, boys Yeah, because they hate the way that they're looking.
I saw it as someone who's been training in gyms for 30 years, I saw the amount of steroid use that's taking place now which 1617 rolls, juicing up to look a particular way and not recognizing that it's gonna have a lifelong impact on the whole you know, physiology. Okay, and then defining in terms of materialism as well and that if I don't have the car if I don't have the clothes if I don't have this the Instagram masculinity, which is out there, if I don't conform to this hegemonic masculinity that is defined by market forces out there, I have failed as a man. And that's what creates the insole movement is very, very text, toxic reactionary movement. So we just did a lecture on on
Insell violence this week, we've had 10 mass murders. Okay. Link to Insell violence here. Why? Because, you know, it creates such a nationalistic mindset. Yeah, that these guys think, well, if I can't compete, I haven't got the body. We have the Plymouth attack early this year. A guy who says, Well, you know, Kotla, Jim, no woman wants to look me etc, etc. There's nothing that he kills his mother first.
And, you know, he killed other Hema had a similar case in our community. And I have quite a few cases where the people latched on to the manosphere. And that they see that, okay, this is what it needs to be a guy and the first object of their hate becomes their mother, their single mother, you fail, you fail to keep the man
you failed to keep my dad. Okay, not that they recognize that that was abusive, perhaps in the first place. Yeah. So. So yes, you know, getting away from the the kind of macro issues out there comes down to the grassroots of our social capital, of what's happening to our young men at the moment, and what's going to happen in the next 10 years. Because if we cannot equalize our men, and it doesn't mean that when we talk about the glob of men,
that doesn't mean they have to be materialistic because No, it's about characteristics, nobility, okay? uprightness knowledge understanding, that's what it's about. Yeah, when they have that, then I didn't let you, you know, when you, you know, when you have the natural Golem, of a man and a woman, she follows him. But when she's earning more than him, she's more intelligent, that she's more empowered than him and everything else. And I'm not in any way saying that, you know, we don't want women who are strong and empowered. It just, it's just a different dynamic. And if the man hasn't got tools, and he's under himself in that cultural paradigm, I'm afraid he's only got one tool in
the box, because I'll give you an example of that in the US. And after when when I was working in self or when I was working in the legal profession itself. For a classic example of what we saw Abderrahim I think you may have dealt with some data in that instance. And you will Yes, as well, is we were seeing a moment in 90s, when the Somali community there was an influx of them as refugees coming into the UK. And one of the things we saw itself when the firm of solicitors I was working for is that when the women were coming over, they were divorcing their husbands, okay? And I remember sitting in one of the cases like what's going on here, and they said, Well, what good are
our husbands to us? Now, when we've come to a society where we get benefits, we get housing, our children go to school free? What are our husbands doing? They're not qualified, they can do nothing. We don't need them. The State gives us a lot more. And when we were seeing that in on a community scale
Okay, we just waited to see the what the effects it would have on the Somali youth, a generation or two later. And you only have to look now remember, after hitting you saw stretching, and I'm not saying everyone is stretching all the way from South London, to from South London, we saw a getaway causation amongst the Somali next generations. And they became as prolific in the gang culture as the black communities and still are. And that breaking away with a society facilitated women saying, we don't need our men
and men are insignificant, and absolutely mentioned the key thing there are this is the nub of conversation maybe for another time, the emasculation of men, and, and society's calls that there are elements, I think that mothers, some mothers, not deliberately, its mothers who may have been in a bad marriage, and abusive marriage, and they want their sons to grow up to be that righteous, balanced man, everything their father wasn't to them, tend to shape or he masculine inadvertently, in some occasion, on some occasions, that child into being held they want or perceived that man to be, and they stripped from them, those elements of manhood that are required, thus causing confusion
amongst those men. And I'll stop on this point and hand back to Aubrey. And one classic case, which you both might not I don't want to give too much details is a confidential case alias and I dealt with was of particular convert to Islam, that became extreme, went off to Somalia, joined a Shabaab was very brutal, very violent, and was killed over there. And when the mother was interviewed, and the family was interviewed, obviously, the shock, the horror, the sadness, but what didn't come out, and I'm not gonna go into more details here, but that there was incest taking place in that family, from the mother to one, if not two of the sons, okay, that never came out and son that went off and
did what he did, did it from the basis of wanting to get out escape, and really show a toxicity as a man that he then transferred to understanding as being a Muslim.
It's overcompensation, you know, from emasculation, to hyper masculinity, it's a total overcompensation is a flip from the 180 from one position to another. And that's exactly what happens when you don't have that balanced, middle path of instruction, guidance, mentoring with compassionate meals with knowledge and understanding and prophetic qualities, just not out there. Now, again, I mentioned last week, resilient dads are program and resilient that is exactly about that fatherhood is one of most fundamentally important things that we do as men. And we need to have as many tools and as many kinds of, you know, kind of as much knowledge as we can to assist us and
to facilitate that particular role. Because I think someone asked question, Does this happen in childhood? Yes, the construct of masculinity and manhood starts from zero, and starts from you looking at the primary male role model in your life, your father, right, and imitating that behavior, because that's the, that's what really happens in between zero and four in terms of social, emotional, cognitive behavioral development is more than the whole of the rest of our life. And so you're right, it will, you will repeat cycles of behavior unless you become self aware enough to actually break a cycle. So this and this is the tragic challenge of our of our time. And I want
to say this, you know, that we as Muslims have something to offer everyone on a global level when we talk about prophetic masculinity. And we talk about all of the qualities of the Gambia on the resume, and how they dealt with their respective societies with their own cultural, social and political dynamics, which are, you know, totally relevant to our times on a global global level as well. We need to offer this we need to offer these programs we need to put this into a corner. And if we don't, then you're right, we have just the most reactionary and toxic elements coming out. I see so many people talking about this area, and they never go back to prophetic masculinity. And the
way that that I said, all of our Ambien there was none of them are materialistic, even though some Allah made kings and some like the Prophet li salatu. Salam he was, you know, he was he was the servant of Allah subhanaw taala. Yeah, right. Yeah. And you know, they were not materialistic. None of them. Okay, what people have, you could say, you know,
all of you know, the other one is articulation. Jomo Kalam, the ability to be intellectually astute and capable in your argumentation, look at Ibrahim alayhis salam look at the Prophet alayhi salam salam ala Jamia Kalam last week and we'll have this song's about crisis of masculinity. I mentioned in my football on Friday. There was a non Muslim on social media and he did a little video where he wasn't mocking the prayer, but the people saw
Although he was felt that he was mocking the prayer, and he wasn't okay, but he was mocking the prayer. So a group of our lads who are going to defend Islam decided to do what goes smash his house up. They smashed all his windows, they broke his house. This is what it means to be a man you see, that's why it is all about that. Why? Because they're completely incapable of using intellect. And in South London, as you know, killing killing someone. And we know the Hadith about the one being killed doesn't always been killed in the one killing doesn't always mean killing. In South London, us three no spots, especially amongst the black community, killing someone to earn stripes, you're a
But this is this makes you a man. This is masculinity. This is the very definition of toxicity abdur-rahim, you know, was asking what he's taught. And I think the examples that we've all been speaking about at this stage of the show, and the dysfunctionality of the individuals is where the toxic masculinity creeps in.
This is a fascinating conversation and brothers I think even though
when I didn't hyper masculinity Yeah, it's interesting. That you know, I found guys when I interviewed them, yeah, literally 678 hours a day immersive experiences. Yeah, of watching UFC and then flipping from UFC to Call of Duty and then into Grand Theft Auto, then smoking weed with their mates, and then having profoundly crude, sexualized kind of conversations, then a bit of porn. And then, and that is, you might not like to hear these guys. And I'm being actually time I'm being tamed.
And what how to think this constructs views around what it means to be a man. And how do you think it's affecting them neurologically? In terms of the what it's doing in terms of creating, you know, the, you know, affecting their, their brains chemistry and kind of neurological kind of connections? Yeah, what do you think is doing, and then this person has a good relationship with a female?
Okay, so this is almost kind of like forget about Pakistani culture, Bangladeshi culture, or whatever called Somali culture, forget about that. That's not, this is what Philip Zimbardo talks about in terms of the global paradigm. And that's what's creating and constructing masculinity. And then the same men, when they recognize that they fail to meet the societal standard of masculinity, whether it's their own cultural standard of being a provider, this, that and the other, and then societal expectations of having a six pack driving the right car and having the right material wealth, they don't meet those standards, then what do you think it then creates in terms of this
sense of complete disconnection, alienation and and that's where it creates such a reactionary behavior and thinking
about that is the mishmash of the crisis that we have. And that's what my research find out. That's what's going on out there in our societies, because we don't even engage with and then just to kind of cap this or not, one of the most fundamentally important development transitions in a boy in a male's life is from boy to man.
And caught in traditional slide societies, we had to read the massage rites of passage, which would induct them into noble noble ways to take on the responsibility and celebrate becoming Barlet. And celebrate becoming a man. What do we do now? Nothing. Okay, joke. You know, it's almost boys in our community go through shame, secrecy, humiliation, discomfort, which leads to double life syndrome, then upgrade.
Why would say, again, we're going to need to continue with this, but slime needs a comment came up or has said, if you can put that and I think this will be a good question, to address all of us if possible.
And I think we're going to need to come back. But this would be a good way to conclude this show, if you both agree by addressing this question. And there's so many that were answered today.
So what I'd say agreeing, do you want to give your thoughts on this, and then brother ileus. And then we can draw to a conclusion. And I think we need to consider continuing this next week. It's so important.
I think I do find, you know, I find the custom or the tradition that you find all over the world of manhood ceremonies, by the way that also the women have, you know, similar but different ceremonies as well. Right.
I find that really fascinating. That something marks that transition, but it's not just man, it's the transition to into adulthood. Right. And that's a whole nother another conversation about this artificially constructed idea of being a teenager. Right, right. And somehow this this, this age, this teenager years, you have a sort of license to behave
Even a particular way, right? And I particularly I guess, if you're white, yeah, you have a license to behave in a particular sort of way that no one else would accept, but it's accepted because you're a teenager. And it's, you know, it's a very artificial thing. I mean, like I said, You we said before, you know, I wouldn't say it's the first time in history, nothing's the first time in history, right. But it's certainly not normal historically, for this sort of phenomena to have existed, like, you're a child, and then you become a man, right? And then you are expected very quickly, to start behaving like a man and taking on certain responsibilities. And I guess this comes
part and parcel with our, you know, this consumer society, a society that is driven by consumerism, and really, this is what's driving a lot of these things. You know, when you're talking about porn, when you're talking about the, you know, the body image dysphoria, when you're talking about the computer games, you know, and all of this is really connected to this whole, you know, this whole materialistic paradigm actually, that that is very sick, very dangerous, very toxic. And that, you know, if you want to see something that's creating toxic masculinity and making it worse, I think that's what it is. So I'm majoring, maybe, maybe the thought, we need to develop our own, you know,
manhood, transitions, everybody's like you said, there's nothing. And now he's saying, if you can, what is that?
You know, may you get
your remark, remember, we used to go a lot in the countryside back in the.
Day, and this is something that is typical from our culture. So and you went to school with some of the middle, yes. But as I was growing, and hit teenagehood, and everything like that, without warning, my peers, somebody who were older than me, you would be thrown over a garden wall, walking down the road, or if your house to live with your friends, and you would be beaten. And I mean, elbows, everything, and you cannot cry, you're in pain, you're in agony. And even if you get angry, if you show anger to retaliate, because they're stronger than you, the violence will be even more. And I remember growing up like that amongst some of my friends, and they are close friends. And I,
you accepted it, because it's what was done. But you might say, That's brutal, it's violent. I'm not saying this should be in this. This is not a suggestion for what we should do my brothers. But then one of the things that it showed me, and I realized it afterwards, with hindsight, some of the things that we experienced in life, which was the circle I was in, which was violence, because of the violence that I had been initiated into, when it became real violence is normal thing. It was normative. It wasn't as bad as what I'd been initiated into. Now, that's a bad initiation. I would say, I'm not advocating that.
I remember all the parties as well, the party culture and the alcohol and drugs. That was all part of it as well back then. Definitely. And that's, that's still going on today. As I mentioned, I alluded to earlier with the gang violence and the initiation of killing an individual shanking an individual. So this is toxic masculinity that needs to be diminished, and we do need to go as you said, Abdur Rahim, when you think of what rites of passage, according is there, a sunnah way to do it? Is there a way that maybe it's not in the Sunnah, but is permissible that we can do? You're right we don't have it. It's the alcohol is the Hedden ism, you know, after him. And with the three
of us there is there is a tradition in Islam in the Sunnah. And it's to celebrate becoming Berlin, to becoming a man and therefore the foreign aid now obligatory upon you the whole of the Yes, yes. And to start giving our youth induction into leadership, you know, that we don't want we have an elder just holding on to leadership. Anyway, that's a separate point of data during you remember, Fight Club, the film? Yes, I do. Yeah. And if anyone wants to watch your film, which really kind of encapsulates this dynamic of what happens when you have what are called the nihilism, movement and total annihilation of masculinity by defining as an economic unit, men want, then seek something
that makes them connect to something more meaningful in their life. And this is what creates fascism, essentially. And that's what
and misogyny Yeah, that's what essentially Fight Club is all about. Yeah. I just want to respond. Just to finish with today. Someone asked, how do we get back to traditional roles? Yeah. How do we get back to this? traditional roles, and I think even the term traditional roles has become so maligned and distorted and weaponized and politicized and confused, what does it actually mean? Okay, traditional roles because interestingly,
The Nazis also believed in traditional roles, okay, so what is and that's why I want anyone to go back to the verse that I mentioned in circle Tober verse 71, when I was new about the belief, and this is our role, this defines the believing men and women are helpers, friends and protectors of one another, they are enjoying what is good, they forbid what is wrong, okay? They perform their salah, they give this car, they obey Allah and obey His Messenger, and Allah will bestow his mercy on them, Allah is all mighty and all wise. So what is your role, your traditional role is to worship your Creator. That's it, it's as simple as that. And you know, if that becomes our defining
existential purpose and reference point, and we go back to the Quran and Sunnah, and the example of the Prophet sallallahu, in administering this role in being and we, we almost kind of ill extricate ourselves from these cultural,
you know, dynamics, which are in opposition to that, then Hamdulillah, you will find that that interaction between men and women will be based upon will be will be that which truly gives Sakina Yeah, and will give, you know, will create that real partnership, and that real complementarity, and reciprocity, and justice and mercy. And that's what we've got to get back to
desire come lucky, really. Again, I think this has been another fascinating show and the insights that have been shared not only by you brothers here, but by the comments, and brilliant.
Yeah, I think it's been amazing. We are going to need to discuss my brother's continuity, and we can do that off the show. But I hope that the viewers who have been participating and been listening and watching, I've taken some benefits away. I am certainly from my brother's here tonight in sha Allah.
Abdur Rahim, last words and we can conclude. Well, you know, I guess one of the things we have to do as well as make dua that Allah you know, we should never forget, you know, to turn to Allah to make dua to him. All of this, I guess all of these conversations we've had today and yesterday is all I guess all. At the end of the day, it comes down to responsibilities and fulfilling our Amarna generally, you know, as worshipers a lot. That's what it really comes down to, and fulfilling the manner of being a man is part of those that responsibility that Allah has given us. So, you know, obviously we tend to the guidance of the Quran and the Sunnah, but also to make dua that Allah
subhanaw taala guides us on the balanced way as
you mentioned, beautiful balanced way so that's my final words.
Yeah, yes, and inshallah you've been listening to
a piece of cake piece of cake. And we will see you next week in sha Allah.