Was Christ Really Crucified

Zakir Naik


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Bismillah R Rahman r Rahim

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in the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

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Al hamdu Lillahi Rabbil aalameen.

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Praise be to God, Lord of the worlds

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respected Pastor saji polical

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on my right,

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Pastor rokinon then Henry po on my extreme right.

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Dr. Zakir Naik on my left.

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distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen,

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on behalf of the organizers,

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the India gospel mission and the Islamic Research Foundation. I welcome all of you to this unique event today.

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A discussion, a dialogue, a symposium, a debate, whatever you may prefer to call it on the topic was Christ really crucified?

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It is being held in a spirit of friendship towards understanding each other's viewpoints.

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I, Dr. Mohammed, Nick and the coordinator for today's program, hence, I will be neutral.

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It is my onerous duty to ensure a fair and proper conduct of today's meeting.

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Therefore, I would request our speakers as well as the audience collected here today to maintain your decorum for a healthy debate. Before we got here today, I was asked by many people

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why this topic?

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Why these speakers only?

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The answer to which I could briefly summarize, in the background to this debate.

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Pastor rockne had come to the Islamic Research Foundation for a discussion with Dr. Zakir

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it was mutually agreed between them, that instead of a personal discussion between them, it will be more preferable and better to have an open public debate on a particular topic at a convenient Hall

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such that the public could hear and share in the debate and be the final judge.

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Dr. Zakir suggested the topics.

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Is the Bible God's word, or was Jesus God.

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But pastor rockne consider these topics too common and instead suggested the topic selected for today's debate. That is, was Christ really crucified?

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That's how the topic for the debate and the two speakers are before all of us today.

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As agreed to and decided, fair by the speakers, the format for the debate will be

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pastor rockne will address you first for 45 minutes on the topic. was Christ really crucified. Then Dr. Zakir will make his presentation on the same topic for 45 minutes.

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Then, we would have a rebuttal session in which pastor rockne would comment and respond for 15 minutes to what Dr. Zakir has spoken, followed by Dr. Zakir to speaking and responding for

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15 minutes to what pastor rockne has presented

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when five minutes are left to conclude the talk, as well as the rebuttal.

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I, as the coordinator would hand each speaker a five minutes left, slip, an indication slip like this,

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in which both the speakers are kindly requested to conclude their talk or rebuttal.

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Lastly, we would have the open question and answer session in which the audience may pose questions to each of the speakers alternately.

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On the question mics, we have provided two here next to the stage and two in the ladies section.

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Only if time permits, we would allow questions on slips, which may be passed on to me, and I would read out to the speakers.

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I would like to now briefly introduce

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the speaker, Pastor rockne before his talk, and I would likewise introduce Dr. Zakir before his talk.

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Pastor rock nodin Henry pure, better known as Pastor rockne is 43 years. He's an Arab Christian missionary. He was born a Christian in Basra, Iraq, and later on brought up in Kuwait. Here's POWs graduated with a master's in science from the University of Bombay.

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He has had variety experience in teaching, including computer education and training, teaching the Arabic language, consultancy for computerization, and development of computer software,

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programs in Arabic.

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He has been in the field of conveying the message of Christianity for over a decade. He is a Bible teacher and preacher with the India gospel mission.

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He is also a renowned faith healer. May I call upon pastor rockne to make his presentation pastor rockne,

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just smile comment. Even though my name is Rodney,

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it is a variation of routine. But very rarely people call me routine. And even in my official documents, I'm Rokni so called nucleoli.

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there are many things we can discuss and many things we can talk about. But practicality doesn't permit. So we settled on on topic. Because, you know,

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it goes on and on and then understanding will be lost. So we settled on one topic.

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You asked me why I suggested this topic, I suggested three things and

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then this was selected from it. reason is because this is a very central topic in the Christian faith. And there is a very serious difference between the

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Muslims and the Christians in this point. So as Nick has Dr. Nick has suggested, we're going to talk very frankly, but in the spirit of friendship and understanding. So here is just we are presenting our views from our side, and left for you to choose what you like, and reject what you like we respect each other's views. And even when you say no to my views, I respect your feelings. And I totally honor your saying no. So I'm just presenting them point.

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a few things I will be picking up from the Bible. But if I go on picking from the Bible, and if there is no end to it, because there are maybe hundreds of verses related to the cross.

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So some things I will just say is from the Bible, but without really telling you where is it? Maybe a few things I will read from the Bible. Because my purposes here not that you memorize which part and all ledges my purpose is that you understand the message behind it. The spirit behind the message of the cross.

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Why is the cross central in the Christian faith? What is the reason? The cross So first of all, let me comment on the cross itself physically the cross.

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What do you understand many people understand I'm not saying all many people understand the cross is the following. I go to the variables are

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Search for not very expensive jeweler and have a nice shiny little bit gold cross and hanging around my neck. And that is very suitable to fashion. Some will buy gold 1718, some gold 21 Good, nice attractive looking cross, going with fashion matching my dress colors and etc. That is what many people understand of the cross, even many Christians, that is the end of the understanding of the cross. And that was my understanding. Many years ago, I am born and brought up in a traditional Christian faith. I am a believer, Christian only 16 years ago, I came to India not a believer, I came to India as a plain traditional Christian.

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But I became a believer here through Indians, true Indians No. So I received the faith in Christ here. And now why the cross so central. Now the Bible does not refer

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the cross as something attractive, something pleasant to liquidation. In fact, there is a picture completely opposite in the Bible.

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The portion of the Bible in the old part of the Bible, that is the books of the Jews.

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The first half of the Bible, we call it the Old Testament in the English language, it refers to the cross as something not nice.

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You'd be surprised.

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It refers to the cross as something ugly.

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It says

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the cross is a place of cursing.

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The cross is a place where somebody who's to be punished badly. And somebody who's cursed somebody who's rejected by society,

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the cross fitsum. And there is a statement in the books of the Jews, the first half of the Bible

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that says it's God's words, said by a prophet, it says curse it is the man who hangs on a tree.

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It was a reference to the tree reference to a cross.

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So, when in the life of Jesus, the cross was not a pleasant thing. desirable.

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But it was a necessity for something which I'll explain. The Bible As you are aware of, some of you may not be aware, this is made out of two sections. It is 66 collection of 66 books, written over a period of approximately 4000 years. It's not one book, it's a collection of books. And

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the first half that is the books of the Jews.

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It is mainly prophetic and written by prophets, various history in the life or the history of the Jews. And right from the first book onwards, there is

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sometimes almost directly, but very often indirectly, reference to the cross.

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Now, the

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why there is a what where does the cross come? Why, why the cross I have not yet explained it, I'll try to come to the point.

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Basically, it's the gospel is the gospel, the news of salvation from Sunday the cross comes, essentially, the Bible reveals to us that man is a sinner.

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Man is a sinner by nature. He inherited that from the days of Adam.

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I was born and brought up and in my nature, I'm a sinner. And therefore, I sin,

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sin by thoughts and by words and by behavior and many, many, many things. It's the nature of man's his sinner. And the Bible also says, that the person whose sins he reaps death, a sentence of death.

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There is a spiritual that is natural, etc.

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So, there is a sentence of death on every human being on this earth, because of sin, because same is offensive to God. And therefore man and God cannot fellowship together cannot come together because of that enemy sin between them.

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And now what happened is,

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this sin is so grievious and so serious and so great. That what ever I do, to pay for the cost of the sin to get rid of it, it is too small, not good enough to wipe sin from my life.

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If I give charity to the poor, it is very nice. That's a beautiful thing, the Bible recommend to do that. But it is not big enough to wipe sin for my life.

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As far as it's a good act, it is a good act, but not good enough to wipe sin from my life. Okay? Now,

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God sent Jesus, a perfect man, a man without sin, a man would refer prefer to suffer rather than sin,

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an exception, a person who sin did not enter him. He was tempted in every way, but yet he did not sin. Therefore, the sentence of death does not belong to Him as it belongs to all of us. He deserves to live forever. That was the quality of Jesus from the spiritual point of view, from the point of view as man, he walked as man on earth, like anybody else, he had to work for his bread and in many different things like anybody else. But from the spiritual point of view, he was not worthy of death, because sin did not succeed going into him.

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Okay, so in that sense, he was a perfect man. Now this Jesus obeyed God, to the point of being wrongly

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sentenced to the death of a sinner.

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Okay, so therefore, satisfying the justice of God, that death is the price for sin, a perfect man who don't deserve to be dead, who don't deserve to taste for death. And he was willing to die on behalf of others, paying the price of sin, therefore, the cost he's paying is worthy to wipe away since

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it see the sacrifices which everybody does and trying to remove sin from the life is not successful in removing sin, but Jesus, because of his value of being sinless, because of his value of obeying, obeying God till the end, therefore, the sacrifice he offered, was acceptable to God as a cause for sin.

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And then that is why the cross of Jesus is central in the Christian life. And that is why it is necessary for Jesus to die, the death that God knew about it beforehand. And that's why he was his death was the key for those who believe in him. And those who receive that sacrifice in their heart and accept it.

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They are entitled, that their sin is paid for, you know, it is a cost for paying for the sin. You know, that is what the cross is in the Christian life. That's why it is central. That's why you remove the cross from the Christian life, you have removed the whole Christian faith.

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Now, the dispute here is many people, not just Muslims, some other people also, they,

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they say, Jesus did not die on the cross. That was, that was not, of course, doctors, like you will know better than me in details. But my part I say, Jesus did die on the cross. And I'm going to in the time available, as now I just give you an idea why the cross is important central in our life, because that death was the key for my sins to be removed from my life. It's a free gift from God, God paid his price himself, God Himself paid the price. Therefore, what he pays is good and worthy enough to remove sin.

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Not like a sacrifice, I would do. It is a polluter sacrifice, because a sinner offering a sinner offering a sacrifice, a polluted sacrifice, but Jesus, a perfect man offering himself though as if he was a sinner. He was willing to receive the punishment of a sinner, but he was not a sinner. It is a sentence of spiritual death in me, he said, You don't die it, give it to me. And I'll take it for you. And now I'm going to just go through some of the historic things in the Scripture. Some of them are indirectly talking about the death and the sacrifice of Jesus. Some of them directly, very clearly speaking, some of them indirectly. So I'll go through some a few few things here and there,

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as time permits me.

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Now, you know, the first five, five books of the Bible

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Written by the Prophet Moses, and the first book of Genesis, that describe the history of God created the earth and the first development of human beings, and the old times in Babylon, etc. Now one thing is, you're, I'm sure some of you and most of you, in school have learned, at least heard about the story of Adam and Eve, how Adam and Eve was created, and he had fellowship with God, there was no barrier between Adam and Eve and God, therefore, God and Adam and Eve see each other, they talk to each other. There is fellowship, there is oneness between Adam Eve and God the Creator. Why? Because there was no seam between them. Okay, that's at that time for singing. Now, later, when the

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devil who came in the, this deceiving form of a serpent, and he succeeded, causing them to sing. Nevermind, what do you see in the novel, basically, it's written in the Scripture, some fruit they are forbidden to eat, and then they eat it, that fruit is not important. What is important is, is that they did obey this obey God. They did this obey God and something God warned them that they are not allowed to do. So when they did that, then sin came to earth. And then Adam and Eve was separated from God. From that day onwards, the rift between God and man started. Many people say, I wish I could see God, I wish, if God made me know why I can't see him why I do. So many people

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wrongly give wrong, bad attributes on God, because they see evil around them. Actually, evil is man has made it not God. But what happened, God is righteous in his judgment. And see some of the things that happen in the past, very small incident, I'm not reading the whole thing, just small part,

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when Adam and Eve sinned against God,

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and then

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God was so angry with with the serpent so angry with Eve so angry with Adam, each one accordingly, you receive some measure of a curse in his life. Now the serpent received a curse, that the serpent will be all the days of her life will crawl on the dust. And in the case of Eve, God told her because you have tempted your husband to eat that which is forbidden, from now on, your husband rules over you, and you will be in submission to him will be dependent on him, and also greatly her birth giving pregnancy, the great pain increases on her in the case of Adam, his main problem was that from now on, when he works in the ground, the ground doesn't give him fruit easily, he'll have

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to sweat and work very hard, till food comes.

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And, and then they life was limited, because death entered their life. From that point onwards, they are not meant to live forever they're meant to, but one thing is very important, is related is

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is about the cross the indirect reference to the cross.

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see God, after declaring the various curses on Adam and Eve.

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In if you'd like to write the reference of free, just I'll read it, just okay. It's in the beginning of the book of Genesis chapter three says, Therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden

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that is in reference to Adam and of course, and his family of Eden, to till the ground from which he was taken, and he drove the man and he placed the cherubim. And so he drove out the man, and he placed a chair of beam at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword, which turned every way to God the way to the tree of life. See, if those who wish to refer to Genesis chapter three, verse 2324.

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See, simply is, after God declared the various things on them, and sentence of death basically on them. God chased them out of the garden of Eden, Eden, that beautiful garden, which we normally refer to it as heaven, but actually, some beautiful place where they used to enjoy the place, God draw them out from that garden. And what did he place at the entry point of the garden, he placed an angelic being is called angels have different types of categories. One of them is called the cherubim, the closest to God. So angelic beings standing at the gate of the garden, and he's got a flaming sword and the sword is going right left in all directions to make sure nobody interest

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garden again.

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What is what is the way to the Garden of Eden? The the way to the Garden of Eden is only if you pass through that sword.

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There is a sword at the garden garden of Eden, which is watching over the entry to the Garden of Eden.

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And as a Christian, and as I related to other things of the Scripture, there is death price to enter the Garden of Eden that sword has to fall on somebody.

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Because God is right, yes. And His justice demands that that sword had to fall on somebody

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he see. And Adam could not come inside there is a sword guarding the Garden of Eden. That sword is the death sentence on the one who dares into the garden.

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And we see later Jesus willingly gave his life according to the will of the Father, and that sword fell on him. And therefore the garden the day that today the door to garden of Eden, the door to garden of Eden, is open,

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not only to Christians to all those who believe. See,

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Jesus said, I am the door. He said, I am the door. You want to know the Father, you want to know the heaven, you want to know the good things of God, I am the door. Jesus allowed that sword to fall on him. So that is indirect reference to the cross. And I'll go a little further now.

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Bible is rich of indirect references to the cross. And also there is a lot of direct reference the cross, He is talking about cross nothing else. Okay. Now, another example is the famous story of the father of all the faithful, Abraham.

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Now I'd like to commend something

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very few known that the Christians and the Muslims are brothers, very few knows that. Really, brothers not just make you not just to make you feel happy. No, really brothers.

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The Christians are the spiritual descendants of Abraham.

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Through Isaac

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the Muslims are the spiritual descendants of Abraham, through Isaac and through I'm sorry, Ishmael. Ishmael, Ishmael is the brother of, of Isaac, really, Muslims, Christians, they come down from Abraham, they have brothers, but they are not natural brother, they step brothers, they are brothers from different mothers. So when I say brother to Muslim, it's not just to make him feel nice. It's really a brother, his spiritual earlier father is Abraham, Prophet Abraham. And my spiritual. Earlier father is Prophet Abraham, same Abraham. Okay. Okay, so that's just diversion. Little diversions I do here and there. I'm not a very serious teacher.

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Some interesting things in between output. Okay, now we still talk about Abraham.

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Abraham had the famous story of being tested. concerning his son, Isaac. I know some of you are not familiar with the Bible. So I add a few basics. Because I know not all of you have read the Bible. Some of you may have not heard. So I will just not put too much details, but just to get your feel of it. Now, Abraham, God told him to come out of wood because the land of sin, who was in Iraq is near Basra. I have been there. Now it's deserted. There's nobody lives there, just some monuments there. So

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because it's a lesson got to get out of it, get out of boot camp, I'll take to a land much better than this place better than this. Now, Abraham did not know what sort of a land guard thing but he obeyed God and he moved. And God did not keep his promise immediately. It took a long time, that for many years, he was married to Sarah. And he she was bad and she couldn't bear children. And for many years, he got older my I'll give you children so many look at the stars, so many stars is there in the sky that much of us your children look at the sun in the sea. So much scientists say that my children, but for many years, he never had children. But by faith, he believed God by faith, he

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moved, you know, by faith he moved, and after many, many, many years, after many years, then his five got fed up, you know. And in those days, not today. In those days, it was not immoral for a person to marry several wives. And even their servant woman can be a wife also. In those days, it was morally perfectly alright. Okay, now

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At that time, his wife told him why you don't marry, you are servant, so you can have at least children from her. So he did had a servant from Egypt. Her name is Hagar. So he married and he had Ishmael.

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But then it was time for Abraham to have a son, according to the promise, according to God's word. And his own wife, Sara, became pregnant and she bought a son Isaac. Imagine what is the heart of Abraham after so many years having the promised son,

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you know, imagine you are married, and and and for say, 2025 years, no children, God promised your son, God promised you suppose you are a very wealthy man who's going to take all this money, they will cheat me in their logic, then afterwards after 2025 years, and your wife expect a baby and a child is born. Imagine how is your feeling towards that boy, after so many years of waiting for that boy, that would happen to ever happen. That was his hot attachment to Isaac his son. And then one very nice night. Something very interesting happens. Something very interesting happens.

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it is in Genesis, nice. My pastor nearby, he helped me to pick it up. I told you I'm not very great teacher. But the spirit of the message, okay. Even though I okay. Now in Genesis chapter

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that is about Isaac

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ajab, Chapter 22.

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It says,

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Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham.

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Okay. It is sounding very simple. It was a very serious thing. And say to him, Abraham, I said,

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and he said, Take now your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Mariah, and after him there. And they offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I shall tell you, very terrible thing happened to him. After so many years waiting and the boy become a little teenage, you know, quite strong, he could carry luggage with his dad, as mentioned there. So God says I want him as a sacrifice. Okay, now, I'll come to the point, which I'm saying I'm not putting all things together, okay, just a few points. Then Abraham, with all the pain in his heart, faithfully gets up early in the morning.

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And take all the tools necessary to offer the sacrifice, the knife, the fire, etc. And he goes all the way to where God told him go, okay. And then he left the seven behind and took his son and went to the mountain Mariah where God has told him.

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And then something very interesting take place, very, very profound statement takes place here. There as a shortcut, so.

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But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father, and said, my father, and he said, Here I am, my son. And he said, Look, the fire and the word, a word is the lamb for a burnt offering.

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As soon as he got fire around, we got word, and Remi, and you alone going up to the mountain? Where is that? Usually they offer a goat or a lamb or is that lamb?

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And I'll see what happens here. And, and Abraham said, My Son, God will provide for himself, the lamb for a burnt offering. And the two of them went together. It's very profound statement. Abraham spoke by faith. He said, God will provide for himself and offering safe. He didn't say God will provide a sacrifice. He said God will provide for himself and offering. Now if you read the books of the Christians in the New Testament, that is the second half of the Bible. The authors, they expand on this point. And they said, Abraham spoke by faith. When he spoke to Isaac, when he spoke to Isaac, he was thinking that God will raise him back from the dead. When he spoke to Isaac. That's

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how he spoke at something like this happens, but not exactly rose from the dead. And then they went up and then they came to the place where God which God has told them and Abraham built the altar there and place the wood in order and bound Isaac, his son and Lady

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on the altar upon the would notice that his son didn't run away. He allowed his father to tie him up, although he was a big boy at that time, he could run away. Okay, and then what happened, and Abraham stretched out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. But the angel of the Lord called him from heaven has said, Abraham, Abraham, and he said, here I am. And he said, Do not lay your hand on the land, or do anything to him. For now, I know that you feel God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son from me. Then Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and there behind him was ram caught in the thickets by its horn. So Abraham went and took the RAM, and offered

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it up for a burn offering, instead of the sun. And Abraham called that name of that place, the LORD Will Provide, as it is said to this day, in the amount of the Lord, it shall be provided, see,

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summary of that thing is summary of that very drop big drama is this is Abraham went up, and then he thought, God will provide for himself a lamb. God is demanding a sacrifice. See, I'm putting my own words in between, I'm just paraphrasing, God demanding a sacrifice, there is a need for a sacrifice. God wants a sacrifice. But where is the Lamb the sacrifice, God will provide for himself, the Lamb, that would happen, and that's what happened. God spared Isaac, God's plan, Isaac, God was not even thinking of killing Isaac, the Bible summary says they were just testing again, God not in the business of killing children like that. God, he gave an Isaac as a gift, he wouldn't just take it

00:36:48--> 00:37:07

like that for him. Okay? And, and then God through miraculous act. He stopped him at the last minute through an angel of God in a very critical point in his time, life. And he said, he gave him one, some other things to be sacrificed, not Isaac. So here we Christians, we look at it this way.

00:37:08--> 00:37:10

God spared me.

00:37:11--> 00:37:20

God's Penny, I'm in the place of Isaac, anybody who believes in Jesus in this place of Isaac, God spared me from that sentence of death of sin.

00:37:22--> 00:37:31

There is a sentence of death of me and God's justice demands, that wages of sin is death, he say, and

00:37:32--> 00:38:17

it is right that I should die and go to hell. Okay, but what happened, God provided a sacrifice for yourself. Christ Jesus is the sacrifice on the cross, that you look at Jesus, you believe in Him, you receive him in your hearts. Therefore God's justice is satisfied. That sacrifice instead of me, that any man dies for me is not good enough. But Christ dies for me is special. There are so many people die for each other there are sometime husband die for his wife because he loves his wife. That's a very noble act. It's a beautiful act. Okay? What I'm talking about saving from sin, not saving from small things, saving from eternal judgment, from hell, from the fire of hell, any

00:38:17--> 00:38:24

sacrifice will not do, will not do the New Testament, the Christian part of the Bible says,

00:38:25--> 00:38:40

God, he's talking to believers, of course, Christians, and he said, God delivered us not through the blood, sacrifice of blood of goats, and cows and animals and all that I'm not hurting a feeling of just telling you what says,

00:38:41--> 00:38:59

but he delivered us to the blood of His own Son, Jesus Christ. See, that is so central, so central, in the old New Testament and post New Testament, because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, my sins were paid for.

00:39:00--> 00:39:25

In the eyes of God, there is a list of sins that needs to be punished in me. But Jesus said, put it on me. For me, I read that that is put on Jesus See, and therefore, but if somebody else die for my sin, nothing happens. I will not be saved from sin. But only particular person a perfect person is having that.

00:39:27--> 00:39:45

That privilege and a to die for others who worship in essence, see, right now, there are many, many things written in the Old Testament. Many, many things I'm not going to read all are just going to just refer it to you. If you'd like to refer the calculator just to know how much time

00:39:46--> 00:39:48

exactly 13 minutes left.

00:39:50--> 00:39:51


00:39:53--> 00:39:53


00:39:55--> 00:39:59

The Old Testament, God gave symbolism of the cross

00:40:00--> 00:40:44

And you know the story of the Jews being saved from Egypt, very famous story in the history of the Jewish nation. They were slaves in Egypt for several 100 years. And then God visited them and he saved them to miraculous act. And he gave them this symbol tonight, I'm going to kill all your enemies, the children of the enemies at that time, and to force them to leave you. And he made them slay a perfect lamp, a lamb without blemish, not sick, not blind, not limping, a perfect lamp. And God told them, you put the blood of the Lamb on the doors of your house. And in the night, the Angel of Death will come any door that don't have that blood,

00:40:45--> 00:41:29

their firstborn will be dead. But this what happened to the Jews, and that time, they they obeyed and they put the blood at the gates and the whole nation, Jews nation that night, were given permission to leave Egypt. That they are. Yeah, so that was a reference to a perfect lamp, a sacrifice of a perfect lamb, not any lamb, I won't just bring any lamb for a perfect lamb. There is a salvation from death. That is a symbolism really, it was not the land. It was a symbol of Christ coming later. Now you go later, one time in the history of the Jews, they rebelled against God. They did it many times 10 major times they did it in the Sinai. And then the Serpents came and just bit

00:41:29--> 00:41:36

the one by one, and many were posing through serpents. It is mentioned fury per serpents. And then

00:41:37--> 00:41:47

God told Moses to do something very strange, very strange. He told him to make a serpent made of bronze, brass, and put it around high stick.

00:41:48--> 00:42:24

And everybody from the Jewish nation looks at that serpent, he'll be healed from the poison of the serpent. Now it is mentioned in the New Testament comments on that. It says, See, the snake is a serpent is is a symbol of the devil. Snake is not the devil snake is just the symbol of the devil snake is just an animal, okay? Now what happened is, Jesus was hung on the cross, became a serpent for us, He who was perfect, more perfect than angels. But he was willing to be like the serpent sin.

00:42:25--> 00:43:11

On the cross. You look at him, you receive him in your heart. Tonight, Your sins are washed away. Tonight, your senior washed away. You don't need some religious ceremony. Tonight he sends a watch to a few receive him a look at Jesus who was hung on the cross. That is so central. So Central is the cross in the Christian faith, so central, and through all the history of the Jewish nation. God told them symbolism, he given symbolism to remind them of forgiveness of sin. He said you bring a lamp that is without blemish. There is no spot in him. He's not blind. He is not a limping of certain age. Only that I accept as your religious ritual sacrifice. God was reminding them the

00:43:11--> 00:44:01

future Christ, the perfect blameless lamp from the point of view of sin. As Manny was just playing man like he only he all his godly power and authority and qualities he kept aside. He worked as a plain man subject to pain and sin is sorry, temptation of sin, temptation of sin. So this is the central thing. Now you come to the New Testament, you come to the New Testament is very obvious about the cross. The whole New Testament is based on the cross of Jesus. Paul says the Apostle Paul, one of their famous leaders in the New Testament, he said, I preach Christ crucified. I got nothing less. Many people wanted Paul to preach the Christian faith Christianity minus cross, or he refused

00:44:01--> 00:44:51

to do that. He said, I preach Christ crucified. That's the only it is foolishness in the eyes of people who don't want to believe the cross is foolishness written from the point of view of natural law, your your God goes and die on the cross. It sounds foolish, gee, it is sounding foolish, but actually it is it is God's wisdom. Because God's wisdom is different. God had to sacrifice satisfy his justice. God had to make a blameless person to die for the sins of the world. Today, anybody who believes in Jesus, death on the cross, he was buried. After three days, he rose he defeated death after three days and receive his godly authority again, anybody who received that act, his sins are

00:44:51--> 00:45:00

washed away. Your destination is change, going to hell going to heaven. That's a plus many other benefits. That's just one of the major

00:45:00--> 00:45:07

Benefits is then the cross. Now in the New Testament is fully based on the cross, you take out the cross, the whole Bible is not worth to buy. So

00:45:09--> 00:45:29

I'm talking Bible, I mean the books of the Jews, I mean the book of the Christians. There is one chapter, Isaiah 53. So clearly about this. So clearly about Jesus suffered and died. So clearly, so clearly. Isaiah chapter 53. Now, lastly, I got a couple of minutes right.

00:45:30--> 00:45:43

Now, lastly, lastly, in the last book of the New Testament, is a prophetic book about things in heaven, one servant of God by the name, john, the apostle, there are two John's there. One is john the apostle.

00:45:44--> 00:46:03

He saw visions of heaven. And he said things about traveling the youth rate war and Euphrates, that's the Iraq area. He predicted things what's happening today in the Euphrates, and you can see it for yourself, just read The Times of India and you'll see all the trouble in the Euphrates, many, many things has been said. But one thing very special said he saw in heaven,

00:46:05--> 00:46:20

the Lamb that was slain. See, Jesus is referred to as the Lamb that was slain. Of course, Jesus is not lamb physically, he's not alive. He's not a sheep. He's a man. Okay? But symbolically, he was that perfect Lamb of God.

00:46:21--> 00:46:39

Where, throughout the history of the Jews throughout the history of the New Testaments, God Jesus is referred to as a lamb in heaven, He is known as the Lamb that was slain. So if you take out the cross, from the Christian faith, there is no Christian.

00:46:40--> 00:46:49

So my list of do's and don'ts that's all there is no salvation, there is no breaking with sin. There is nothing. The cross is very central. The cross is,

00:46:50--> 00:47:26

is the main thing that God gave, God died on my behalf. See, he was willing to come down from heaven. He was willing to walk as man in the pains that man taste, being tempted in every way you attempted. If you attempt to Jesus tasted more than what you you think, okay, you believe on him. He breaks that lust and that, that addiction and that bad habit. And that curse in your life. Jesus breaks all that from your life. You have to just say yes to Him. And tonight you go home and just pray to Him, you receive salvation from sin.

00:47:28--> 00:47:29


00:47:32--> 00:47:40

Okay, good. five minute second miracle. Okay. Praise God. Okay. One thing is,

00:47:41--> 00:47:42

it's for now.

00:47:45--> 00:48:03

Okay, five minutes, not bad enough. All right. Now, there is one evidence of one. One category of evidence of the cross of Jesus is the Bible. That is the books of the Jews. The books of the New Testament of the Christians

00:48:05--> 00:48:17

thoroughly surrounded the cross, directly and indirectly, directly and indirectly, you can read it for yourselves a very, very reasonably priced, there are many BBs shops in Bombay. And if you don't know it will tell you later. Okay.

00:48:19--> 00:48:50

another level of evidence that Jesus did die, and he was sentenced to death is, I'll give you it is not from the Bible. It's not from the Bible, from the enemies of Jesus, those who hated Jesus, unfortunately, the Jews themselves historically, they rejected the message of Christ. They said, this is not really Christ, this is a false Christ. So finally, they sent us into death. Now, if you are aware of the Jewish nation, they maintain current history book.

00:48:52--> 00:49:13

As major events takes place in the Jewish nation, they record it with their religious authorities in a book called The till mood. Some of you may have heard of it. If you refer to the version of it in mood around the time of Jesus 2000 years ago, you will read that Jesus was put to death.

00:49:15--> 00:49:46

Of course, they will say wrong things also, they say he was false Christ. He gave a wrong message. He was a magician, they said wrong things. But one thing they said, they say Jesus was put to death, because he did wrong things. But that is another that is that is not religious, that is outside evidence that Jesus did die. The people who handled him, they did put him to death. That's a third third type of evidence of the cross that is real is the evidence of the Holy Spirit. Today, Christians according to the teachings of the Bible,

00:49:47--> 00:50:00

they prey on the sick, they prey on demons. They prey on troubles of life. God heals. God testifies that these people are teaching you correct things. Not in one

00:50:00--> 00:50:09

incident, I myself was healed from a serious fungal disease. There are doctors here they know what I'm talking about. ankylosing spondylitis, incurable.

00:50:10--> 00:50:49

a disease that puts you in bed, you cannot walk in it a disease that will waste your life. And and 16 years ago the leaders prayed for me. I was healed gradually within seven days. I was not religious. I was just believing in Jesus. I was not knowing the Bible but had not read even the Bible once in that time. They prayed for me God confirm these people are teaching correct things. The cross is real. say God healed me. And I know people I know people rose people from the dead. You may you may you may argue with me I got only two maybe half a minute more. I cannot argue with you. But the people today rose people I myself happened to me. I was walking near mama Jim corner, one

00:50:49--> 00:50:49

little girl

00:50:51--> 00:50:52

scoot around have

00:50:53--> 00:50:54

I carried her dead.

00:50:55--> 00:51:35

She was a listen teenager. I am not a doctor. I cannot tell you about her. Internal organs functioning not but as a layman. I saw that she stopped breathing as he's totally finished. And we rushed her to the hospital. I was praying in Jesus name for her. And by the time we reached the hospital, she revived me she came back to life and doctors, doctors just to care for observation, St. George hospital, okay. Now that is not a confirmed arising from the dead. This is give you example. But people confirm people from the dead was Rosen, the name of Jesus. They define death today define death. They are healing the sick. In the name of Jesus. God is giving acts of mercy and

00:51:35--> 00:52:15

acts of love, in Jesus name that crucified Jesus. You have faith in Him. God will meet the unique needs of your life. God will meet the need today. I don't have time. I would have prayed for all of you. But there is no time. But some other time. Maybe you could come to our meeting at the model Hall classroom on nine o'clock next Sunday. parados NACA. We could pray for all of you, my pastor will pray for you. Some people in the church will pray for you. We are not great people. We are not great healers as a brother as half. We are just ordinary people. I'm just a tuition, give them a SAG or on housing limitations. I'm not a great fellow, even my pastor. He is managing his living somehow

00:52:15--> 00:52:34

and his wife is working in some hospital like that mainly we are not some great healers. We just make things happen. But in Jesus name enhance. Most of the times people receive healings according to the faith, of course, God confirming that the message of the cross is true in many different levels of proof of the cross. Thank you.

00:52:42--> 00:52:46

Thank you, Pastor rockne for your presentation. Now we have

00:52:48--> 00:52:49

the second speaker for the day.

00:52:51--> 00:53:18

Dr. Zakir Dr. Zakir Abdul Karim nyak 33 years is the president of the Islamic Research Foundation Bombay, a medical doctor by professional training, he has turned around to make the proper clarification as well as removing misconceptions about Islam. His main mission in life, he is a keen student of Islam and comparative religion.

00:53:19--> 00:53:36

In the last three years itself, Dr. Zakir has delivered more than 300 public talks abroad. In addition to his many talks in India. He has also participated in many symposia and debates with prominent personalities of other faiths

00:53:37--> 00:53:46

may call upon Dr. zakhar to make his presentation on the topic of the day. was Christ really crucified? Dr. Zakir?

00:53:52--> 00:53:53


00:53:54--> 00:54:15

wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Allah Allah wasabia Jemaine amavasya out Billahi min ash shaytani r rajim Bismillah R Rahman Rahim lokali him in nocturnal Messiah is of mama Castilla La Mancha to Lu masala Busan well I can shoot him in the desert z nocciola foofy

00:54:17--> 00:54:37

Malou be human in Isla de la San Mamata kulu yaquina Bismillah R Rahman Rahim rubbished Elisa de were certainly amor de Waal, Mila Sahni. Yes, Coco Lee, respected Pastor occludin or as he likes to be called, Pastor rockne. Henry bill

00:54:38--> 00:54:39

passed besides he

00:54:40--> 00:54:55

respected pastor for various churches of Bombay, my respects to the elders, and my dear brothers and sisters. I welcome all of you with Islam greetings. Assalamu alaykum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh from

00:54:56--> 00:55:00

May peace, mercy and blessings of Allah subhanho wa Taala of Allah

00:55:00--> 00:55:01

God beyond all of you.

00:55:03--> 00:55:04

Before I drill into the topic,

00:55:05--> 00:55:11

I would like to clarify the position of Jesus peace be upon him in Islam.

00:55:12--> 00:55:43

Islam is the only non Christian faith, which makes it an article of faith to believe in Jesus peace be upon him. No Muslim is a Muslim. If he does not believe in Jesus peace be upon him. We believe that he was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah subhanho wa Taala of Almighty God. We believe that he was the Messiah, translated Christ. We believe that he was born miraculously, without any male intervention, which many modern day Christians today do not believe.

00:55:44--> 00:55:59

We believe that he gave life to the dead, but God's permission, we believe that he healed those born blind and lepers, that God's permission, mask, that if Muslims and Christians both love and respect you this peace be upon him,

00:56:00--> 00:56:11

then where is the parting of ways? The major difference is, the Christians insistence on the divinity of Jesus peace be upon him.

00:56:13--> 00:56:19

And they say that he was crucified on the cross, and he died for the sins of humanity.

00:56:23--> 00:56:24

The topic

00:56:25--> 00:56:32

of today's debate, if you have forgotten is, was Christ, really crucified.

00:56:33--> 00:56:42

And since we Muslims and Christians both believe in Jesus peace be upon him, it's obligatory that we put forth both points of view,

00:56:43--> 00:56:45

the Muslim and the Christian points of view,

00:56:46--> 00:56:49

as far as the Muslim point of views concern,

00:56:51--> 00:56:57

we believe the most authentic and sacred book, which is the word of God is the Glorious Quran.

00:56:59--> 00:57:07

And I started my talk by reciting a verse from the Glorious Quran from Surah Nisa, chapter four verse 157, which

00:57:08--> 00:57:15

gives the verdict, the Islamic viewpoint regarding the topic of today's debate was Christ God crucified.

00:57:17--> 00:57:19

And since pastor rockne,

00:57:20--> 00:57:24

he's an adult Christian missionary, Arabic is a mother tongue.

00:57:25--> 00:57:34

I do not have to translate the meaning of what I recited in the beginning of my talk, for him to realize, to understand what is the summit viewpoint.

00:57:35--> 00:57:49

But since most of us don't understand Arabic, Arabic is not a mother tongue. I would like to translate the verse which I decided in the beginning of my talk from Surah Nisa, chapter number four was the open 57 which says,

00:57:50--> 00:57:52

they said the Jews in boast

00:57:53--> 00:58:12

in nocturnal Mercia, a submarine that we killed Christ Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, Wehrmacht aloo masala boo. They did not kill him. Neither did they crucify him, while locking should be hollow, but it was made to appear so

00:58:15--> 00:58:34

Nakula foofy Luffy shakin and all those who differ they're in a full of doubts. malabu be mean, with no certain knowledge and lucky person with only conjectures to follow vomica through yaquina for a surety they kill him not.

00:58:35--> 00:58:47

This wasn't the goddess Quran is so explicit and ambiguous, making it very clear that the Islamic viewpoint is Bhama Cthulhu masala boo. They killed him not. Neither did the crucify

00:58:50--> 00:58:53

mama Cthulhu yaquina. For a surety they killed him not.

00:58:54--> 00:59:03

No one can be more explicit, more unambiguous, more unequivocal than the Quran in this was saying that he was not killed.

00:59:04--> 00:59:08

If I conclude my presentation right now,

00:59:10--> 00:59:18

without commenting, or refuting on the biblical point of view, what the past has presented as far as the debate is concerned,

00:59:20--> 00:59:43

it will be a draw, it will be neutral, that the Muslims say according to the Quran, Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not deadly crucified and the Christian according to the understanding of the Bible, they say he was crucified it would be a drop, but I will not do that. I will prove from the Bible itself with the Christian belief to the Word of God, that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not really crucified.

00:59:46--> 00:59:47

Let me first clarify

00:59:49--> 00:59:54

that we Muslims, we do not consider the Bible to be the Word of God.

00:59:56--> 00:59:59

The Bible may contain certain portions

01:00:00--> 01:00:05

Which we may consider it to be the Word of God. It contains the word of the prophets,

01:00:06--> 01:00:07

the word of the historians.

01:00:09--> 01:00:22

It also contains absurdity. obscene statements which if someone even paid me 1000 rupees now I will not be able to read from the Bible, such obscene versus obscene chapters, it also contains contradictions.

01:00:23--> 01:00:35

But even though I don't believe that the Bible is a word of God, yet, I will prove from the Bible that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified, because pastor rockne and many Christians out here

01:00:36--> 01:00:40

they agree the Bible to be the Word of God. So proof from their evidence.

01:00:42--> 01:00:51

Because the Quran says in Surah Baqarah chapter number two was the 111 makalu layer crew, Jonathan lamancha, they say

01:00:53--> 01:01:05

the Julian Christian, you Muslims, you shall never enter Jannah with all your piety, with all your righteousness, as pastor said, with all the good deeds, you shall not get salvation. That's what the pastor said in this talk.

01:01:06--> 01:01:13

It was useless with all your Zakat, with the height with the Salah with a mark on your forehead, you shall never enter Jannah

01:01:14--> 01:01:17

unless you be a Jew or a Christian

01:01:18--> 01:01:24

makalu la rue de la Mancha pueden ansara unless you are a Jew or Christian.

01:01:25--> 01:01:36

Allah says Phil karmani, you, this is a wishful thinking Bahasa because when desires, don't tell them how to produce your proof in condom for the king, but if not truthfully,

01:01:37--> 01:01:55

Allah says ask them to produce a proof. If I tell from the Quran that Jesus was not crucified, the Christians they don't agree the Quran to be the Word of God. So we have to ask them call how to produce your proof in quantum thinking, but if you are truthful, and the Christians, they have produced the proof, the Bible as the Quran,

01:01:57--> 01:02:09

the Christian faith, my Bible says this, my Bible says that my Bible says this, my Bible says that, let's analyze what does the Bible says, and they produce the Bible, in no less than 2000 different languages of the world.

01:02:11--> 01:02:38

So let's analyze from the Bible, but the Christ was crucified. And while doing so, whatever conclusion I draw from the Bible, need not necessarily be the Islamic viewpoint. Let me remind you that the conclusion drawn from the Bible need not necessarily be the Islamic viewpoint, the Islamic viewpoint I have made it very clear upon different Nyssa chapter four was 157 mama Cthulhu masala boo, they killed him not, neither did the crucify

01:02:41--> 01:02:44

the topic was Christ really crucified?

01:02:45--> 01:02:50

What is the meaning of the English word crucified?

01:02:51--> 01:03:00

According to the Oxford Dictionary, crucify means to put to death by fastening on to the cross.

01:03:02--> 01:03:12

According to the Webster dictionary, crucify means to put to death by kneeling or binding to the cross. In short,

01:03:13--> 01:03:19

for a person to be crucified, he should die on the cross if he does not that is not possible.

01:03:21--> 01:03:24

What is the meaning of the word resurrection?

01:03:26--> 01:03:28

resurrection, according Locke's additionally means,

01:03:29--> 01:03:30

the act

01:03:32--> 01:03:34

or instance, of rising from the dead,

01:03:36--> 01:03:39

and resurrection with a capital R means Christ

01:03:40--> 01:03:41

rising from the dead.

01:03:43--> 01:03:47

According to the Webster dictionary, resurrection means

01:03:48--> 01:04:03

the act of rising from the dead and resurrection with a capital R means rising again of Christ after his death and burial. In short, for Christ to be resurrected, he has to die. If he does not that he is not.

01:04:05--> 01:04:08

Let everyone get this definition is very clear in their mind.

01:04:10--> 01:04:23

According to Jesus peace be upon him. He says in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 19, was number 16 and 17 that a person can obtain salvation by keeping the law and the commandments.

01:04:25--> 01:04:43

But according to St. Paul, he nails the laws and the commandments to the cross cross cross as you heard pastor st cross cross, he nails, the law and the commandment to the cross as the faith in Colossians. Chapter number two was number 14. And Paul says that

01:04:44--> 01:04:54

salvation can be obtained by believing in the death and resurrection of Jesus peace be upon him and he quotes if you read the New Testament,

01:04:55--> 01:05:00

First Corinthians, chapter number 15 was number 14. I give the reference for

01:05:00--> 01:05:10

You know, people realize I'm not pulling a fast when I prefer give me references. Otherwise if I say Bible says this New Testament says this, in this Encyclopedia of more than 1000 pages Do you find? To make it easy I give references

01:05:12--> 01:05:16

coin to St. Paul, First Corinthians chapter number 15, verse number 14.

01:05:18--> 01:05:21

And if Christ has not risen from the dead,

01:05:22--> 01:05:25

our preaching is in vain, and your faith is in vain.

01:05:27--> 01:05:36

As the pastor said, that, all your good deeds, all your charity, without believing in Christ died for the sin, it is useless. And

01:05:38--> 01:06:05

the Christian missionaries, the reference didn't give quoting from Isaiah, chapter 64, verse number six, that all our righteousness, all our good deeds are like filthy rags. If you don't believe Jesus Christ, peace be upon him died on the cross for the sins of humanity, all your righteousness, all your good deeds are like filthy rags. And in the words of the pastor, which I wouldn't ever say, he says, if there is no cross, if there is no crucifixion Bible is less than two pints.

01:06:06--> 01:06:28

And he says, If no crucifixion, there is no Christianity. And I agree with him. And I agree with him. And the pastor said that he came to India, and he spent more than two decades here. And only when he came to India, he really realized the message of Christianity previously was only a Christian, but he became a practicing Christian from the Muslims, you

01:06:30--> 01:06:55

remind him that I have only met one adaptation before in my life before meeting pastor. One adaptation I met in Jeddah from Syria. And after he attended my talk, at Hamdulillah, Bella's grace, he accepted Islam. This is the second time in my life that personally I'm eating an adaptation. And in Sharla, with Allison and I pray to Allah subhanaw taala

01:06:56--> 01:07:15

that since he got the teachings of Christianity from the Indians, he will come back to the original faith, which is Islam, which every human being is born in inshallah, after this talk, after having discussion, inshallah, I pray that it comes back to the original faith, inshallah realizing that if no crucifixion, no cross, no Christianity,

01:07:18--> 01:07:38

which inshallah will do in the course of my time. Let's devote St. Paul See, regarding resurrection, St. Paul's. He comments on his electric bodies, in the same chapter where he says, If Christ hasn't risen, our faith is in vain. Our preaching is in vain. Same chapter, First Corinthians chapter 15. Towards the end of the chapter, St. Paul says in First Corinthians,

01:07:40--> 01:07:48

chapter 15, verse 42, to 44, is that so also is the resurrection of the dead.

01:07:49--> 01:07:50

It is sown

01:07:52--> 01:07:54

in corruption, it is raised in in corruption,

01:07:55--> 01:07:56

it is sown

01:07:57--> 01:08:15

in dishonor, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body, there is a natural body and the spiritual body, according to St. Paul, resurrected bodies as spiritualize.

01:08:17--> 01:08:18

Their spiritualized

01:08:19--> 01:09:01

shape same is said by his Lord and Master Jesus peace be upon him. And the Gospel of Luke, chapter number 20 was number 27 to 36. If you remember the story of a woman who had seven husbands, and the Jews come with a puzzle to Jesus peace be upon him. And it's a Jewish practice, that if a man marries a woman, and if he dies, without leaving any children, the second brother married the wife of the disease rather than so that he can give her the seat. If the second brother dies, without leaving any children, the third brother marries so on and so forth. So yeah, they come with a puzzle that this woman married seven brothers, one after the other.

01:09:02--> 01:09:19

And all of them had her Yo, Mr. header as a wife, yet one after the other, but there's no problem. Why, since each one of them had turned by turn, so there's no problem and later on in life, but the pose the question to Jesus peace be upon him, that in resurrection, who will have her day

01:09:21--> 01:09:28

indicating direction, all the seven brothers will be raised simultaneously, along with a woman who will have her death?

01:09:29--> 01:09:37

So Jesus peace be upon him says in the Gospel of Luke, chapter 20, was 3536, that resurrected bodies, they're not married?

01:09:38--> 01:10:00

Neither do they give in marriage was 36 is that neither shall they die anymore. They are equal unto the angels, that means they shall be initialized. The elected body will be spiritualize Who says that? Jesus is the Gospel of Luke chapter number 20, verse 26 policies that first Corinthians chapter

01:10:00--> 01:10:02

15 was number 42 to 44.

01:10:04--> 01:10:09

It's very clear. And there's not a single verse, any event the gospel,

01:10:10--> 01:10:12

which says that Jesus peace be upon him.

01:10:13--> 01:10:15

In fact, if you did,

01:10:16--> 01:10:17

it's mentioned,

01:10:18--> 01:10:20

if remember the story,

01:10:22--> 01:10:26

that after the alleged crucifixion, when the disciples the met in

01:10:28--> 01:10:36

Jesus peace be upon him, he comes, as mentioned the Gospel of Luke, chapter number 24, was number 36. He comes and he says to the disciples, Shalom,

01:10:38--> 01:10:39

which means peace, and do.

01:10:43--> 01:10:45

Next was Gospel of Luke chapter 24, verse 27.

01:10:47--> 01:10:53

But they were terrified and excited. And suppose him to be a spirit.

01:10:54--> 01:10:55

I'm asking a question.

01:10:57--> 01:11:38

Why did the disciples think Jesus peace be upon him to be a spirit? Did Jesus look like a spirit? And when asked this question to the Christians, all of them said no, and they're right, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, did not look like a spirit when it comes to the upper room after that is good fiction. So why did they think that he was a spirit? The reason is because they had heard from your see that the Master Jesus peace be upon him was put on the cross. They had learned from your sin, that he had given up the cost that he had died. They had learned from your say that he was dead and buried in the grave for three days to say, You know why? Because they weren't eyewitnesses.

01:11:38--> 01:12:05

According to Mark, Gospel of Mark, chapter number 14, was number 15 says that all of them, forsake him and fled in the most crucial juncture in the life of Jesus peace be upon him when required them the most, or is the disciple 100%. All of them according to Matthew, chapter 14, verse 50, they forsook him, and fled. Who says that not only Gospel of Matthew, chapter 14 was the most, if not

01:12:06--> 01:12:12

all of them. So it for some years, therefore they think, and they thought that he was a spec.

01:12:13--> 01:12:47

But Jesus peace be upon to clarify that out. It's mentioned the next two verses in the Gospel of Luke, chapter number 24, was limited and 40. Just be the eponymous says, that be behold, my hands and feet, it is I myself, handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bone, as you see me. And seeing so he shows them his hands and feet, he tells him, Behold my hands and feet, it is I myself, what does that mean to you? It is me a lot and Master Jesus peace be upon him, by your frighted.

01:12:49--> 01:13:04

Handle the end, see your hands and feet, for a spirit has no flesh and bones. What was he trying to prove by showing your hands and feet, more than trying to prove that your resurrected body trying to prove that your spirit was trying to prove that he was not a spirit? He was not resurrected.

01:13:06--> 01:13:07

Next Door says

01:13:08--> 01:13:16

Gospel of Luke, chapter number 24 was number 4142. It says that they were overjoyed. And they wonder

01:13:17--> 01:13:24

they thought he's dead. And now they're happy that the Lord and Master is alive physically, with flesh and bone in front of them. They're happy,

01:13:26--> 01:13:39

Jesus peace be upon him. Yet to confirm them says that. Do you have any media and they gave him a piece of broiled fish and, and honeycomb. And he took it any age before them.

01:13:42--> 01:13:48

To prove that your spirit to prove that he was a physical body, he ate, and he chewed in front of them

01:13:49--> 01:13:57

a piece of boiled fish in honeycomb to prove that he was not resurrected. He was not a spirit, but he was flesh and bones a physical body.

01:14:00--> 01:14:02

If no resurrection, no crucifixion.

01:14:05--> 01:14:05

If you remember

01:14:08--> 01:14:33

the story of Mary Magdalene, when she goes to the tomb of Jesus peace be upon the third day. As mentioned the gospel of john chapter number 20 was number one, as well as the Gospel of Mark, chapter number 15 was number two, that it was the first day of the week. Meaning of the Sunday. Sabbath day is Saturday for the Jews. The first day of the week is Sunday. It was the first day of the week that Mary Magdalene goes to the top.

01:14:34--> 01:14:59

Now why should Mary Magdalene go to the tomb on the third day after the escapees Groupon supposedly was dead? Why should she go? The replies given the worse earlier in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 16 was number one that Mary Magdalene goes to massage Jesus peace be upon him to anoint you. The word is anointed, which the original Hebrew word is Maha means

01:15:00--> 01:15:08

Massage, to rub, to annoy. And from this root word, you can even derive the Arabic word, mercy, or the Hebrew word,

01:15:09--> 01:15:17

Messiah, which means the anointed one, which if you translate to Greek, it means Christos, from which you get the word Christ.

01:15:19--> 01:15:36

I must say asking a question, do Jews massage? Dead bodies on the third day? heavier anytime heard Jews massaging dead bodies the third day? And the answer is no. I'm asking the Christians do Christians massage dead bodies on the third day? And the answer is no. Do Muslims?

01:15:37--> 01:15:40

Do we massage that burden the third day? And the answer is no.

01:15:41--> 01:15:49

So why is she going to the tomb to Messiah Jesus was died on the third day, according to the Christians.

01:15:50--> 01:15:54

You know why? Because she was the only one besides Joseph.

01:15:56--> 01:16:25

And Nicodemus, who gave the burial path to Jesus peace be upon him. And when Jesus's body was fought on peace be upon him from the cross. She might have seen some life in the body, but naturally, she's not gonna say he's alive. Otherwise, they will put him to death again, seeing certain life in the limb, body of Jesus peace be upon him. She comes back on the third day, after the Sabbath day, to look for a life Jesus peace be upon.

01:16:27--> 01:16:41

Alive, Jesus peace be upon him. And it's mentioned, and the gospel of john chapter 20, verse number one, and the Gospel of Mark chapter number 16, verse number four, that she finds that the stone has been removed,

01:16:42--> 01:16:43

and even

01:16:44--> 01:16:48

the winding sheets, they are unbounded, and placed in a pile.

01:16:50--> 01:17:15

The question is, why should the stone be removed? And why should the winding sheets be unwound, and placed at the site pile up at the site? If Jesus peace be upon was erected, as a spiritual body? Does a spirit require the stone of the entry of the tomb to be removed? If it's the spirit, those cannot stop a spirit from entering

01:17:16--> 01:17:27

the stone did not be removed. Why was the stone removed? And if the spirit has to move, does it have to unbound the winding sheets? It's not required. But if it's the physical body,

01:17:28--> 01:17:40

the stone blocking the interior of the tomb has to be removed. The winding sheet has to be unbound, proving that Jesus peace be upon him. The person who came out of the tomb was a physical body.

01:17:42--> 01:18:10

And the tomb was a private property of the secret disciple of Joseph adhamiya, who was rich and influential. And he had carved a big roomy tomb, maybe for himself for future in which Jesus peace be upon him was kept the two mothers America and According to Jim Bishop, he says Jim Bishop, not Bible, Jim Bishop says it was very roomy, very big. five feet wide, seven feet in height and 15 feet in depth.

01:18:13--> 01:18:54

Why do you require me to do that if anyone wants to help a person, it can be done easily. These are small rooms in Bombay. It is 75 square feet. 75 square feet flat is big. In Bombay, you find five, six people living in that room Bombay are the most expensive place in the world. 75 square feet, you find four or five people living in it. So roomy enough, if they want to help the person, why would they want to help a spiritual body? spiritual doesn't help, but natural they want to help a physical body. Further if you read the gospel of john, chapter number 20, was number 15. Jesus, he sees that Mary Magdalene,

01:18:55--> 01:19:14

from the earth from terra firma, not from the heaven I*a and she's VP and it comes to her and us, woman by the pain of homesickness, now, knowing very well what is the reason but yet after she says, I'm supposed to be a gardener? She has.

01:19:16--> 01:19:17

Where have you taken

01:19:18--> 01:19:21

and laid him so that I may take him away?

01:19:23--> 01:19:36

I must no question. Why did Mary Magdalene suppose Jesus to be peace be upon him a gardener? I must no question. Do the resurrected bodies look like gardeners? Do they? Yes or no?

01:19:38--> 01:19:41

So why should she suppose that Jesus peace be upon him was a gardener?

01:19:42--> 01:19:45

And the answer is because he was disguised as a gardener.

01:19:46--> 01:19:49

Now why should a spiritual body be disguised as a gardener?

01:19:52--> 01:19:59

This guy for the gardener peace be upon him because of the fate of the Jews. A spiritual body need not be afraid of the Jews. Bye bye

01:20:00--> 01:20:08

according to Hebrews, chapter nine, verse 27, a man dies only once. And after that, is that the attachment

01:20:10--> 01:20:30

Jesus peace be upon him said, The Gospel of Luke, chapter number 20. was number 36, neither shall you die anymore. With your spiritual life. You don't have to be afraid of anybody, no one can harm you. You cannot die a second time, if he spiritualize Why should he be disguised? Why should he be afraid? Why should he be in hiding? Why should run away from the juice,

01:20:33--> 01:20:35

proving that he was not spiritual body, but he was alive.

01:20:38--> 01:21:01

And he says to Mary, Mary, the one word is sufficient for Mary to recognize her Lord and Master, you know, because everyone has a particular style of calling the beloved one. And the tune in the style, which you call a beloved one is sufficient to recognize who is the person, she immediately recognizes that it is Jesus peace be upon him, and she rushes forward toward

01:21:02--> 01:21:13

gospel of john, chapter number 20, verse 15 1617, Jesus peace be upon him says, that's me not. Why? Why does me know?

01:21:14--> 01:21:15


01:21:16--> 01:21:26

A bundle of electricity, that someone touches him, the person will be electrocuted? Is he a bundle of dynamite? That if someone touches they will blow up? Why does he say touch me not?

01:21:27--> 01:21:52

Because he was a physical body. Imagine the ordeal, the pain, the physical pain, the emotional pressure that he had, going through all that, so called supposedly put on the cross, put on the cross, all that pain and torture, it will hurt a physical body. He said, that's me not. And then continues and says, In gospel of john chapter 20, was number 17. I have not yet ascended unto my father,

01:21:53--> 01:21:53


01:21:55--> 01:22:03

that he has not yet been dead. Jesus Christ peace be upon him unequivocally says that he has not yet been resurrected.

01:22:06--> 01:22:08

Proving that your life

01:22:09--> 01:22:15

later intervention, the gospel of Mark, chap number 16 was 11.

01:22:16--> 01:22:21

That the disciples, they had heard that Jesus peace be upon him was alive

01:22:23--> 01:22:55

from her, Mary Magdalene, but they believe you know the Jews, they had a habit of posing questions, troubling the messengers. The Quran says that the Bible says that they pose a question to Moses peace upon him, they troubled him. And they had asked him saying that it would Jesus peace be upon him. Further, it's mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 12. was number 13. The Jews come up with a master rabbi, meaning Oh, Lord, why don't you give as a sign, sign mini American

01:22:56--> 01:22:57


01:22:58--> 01:23:13

All the good work that Jesus Christ peace be upon him did was not sufficient to convince the Jews, they said give either sign, give us a miracle. Maybe, like flying in the air. like walking on the water. like walking on burning charcoal, the American

01:23:15--> 01:23:28

Sign here doesn't mean a sign on lampposts, like have signs on the road. It's not that same. It particularly means American and the New International Version, it says a miraculous sign. What is the replies to this peace be upon him?

01:23:29--> 01:23:42

For the reply he gives. The next was Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 12. was number 13. And 14 says, You even an adulterous generation, secretly after a time

01:23:44--> 01:23:48

you think for a miracle, no sign shall be given to you but the sign of Jonah.

01:23:49--> 01:23:59

Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of

01:24:00--> 01:24:32

Jesus peace be upon him doesn't say that he go and meet, but he missed the blind person. Why give sight? Why don't you ask a woman with issues? When you're touching me she was he? He didn't refer to the 2000 pigs he had killed to his opposite man. He doesn't say that the 5000 and the 3000 people he fed with abroad fish and with bread. He says no science shall be given to you. But the sign of Jonah, Jesus peace be upon him is putting all his eggs in one basket.

01:24:34--> 01:24:35

The sign of Jonah

01:24:38--> 01:24:52

and for a person to know the sign of Jonah. He doesn't have to be a scholar of the Bible. It doesn't have to be a doctor of divinity because it is taught in Sunday schools and most countries including India.

01:24:53--> 01:24:59

Irrespective whether you're a Christian or a Muslim, or a Hindu in some way or the other. It is taught either in comics

01:25:00--> 01:25:04

In modern science lessons, the sign of Jonah, or Jonah and the way

01:25:05--> 01:25:06

they know.

01:25:07--> 01:25:10

But if you want to know the sign of Jonah, actually, in the Bible,

01:25:12--> 01:25:20

in this big book, the sign of Jonah is less than two pages, less than one and a half page

01:25:21--> 01:25:26

had the Xerox copy done from the same Bible to make it easy, less than one and a half side,

01:25:28--> 01:25:30

less than one upside, only four chapters.

01:25:34--> 01:25:37

And to find one page, in encyclopedia more than 1000 pages of difficult,

01:25:39--> 01:25:53

but everyone knows the outline of the story, that Almighty God, he asks his messenger, Jonah upon him to go and deliver the message to the ninevites to go to Nineveh. But he says, These ninevites

01:25:54--> 01:25:55


01:25:56--> 01:25:59

are so sinful, what will they listen to the message?

01:26:00--> 01:26:09

He thinks that they will make fun of me, it will be waste of time. So he goes to Java and from day he setting sail to Tarshish.

01:26:10--> 01:26:31

Now while he that see, there's a huge storm, and it was the superstition of the Marines of that time, that if there's a storm at sea, it is because someone has disobeyed the master. And they had their own ways in trying to find who was the person responsible. They had the system of casting of lots. And when the cast lots,

01:26:32--> 01:26:52

it comes to the tone of Jonah peace be upon him and Jonah being a messenger of Almighty God. He agreed, and he says that See, I am the person responsible. I was told by my master Lord, to go to Nineveh, but from jopa I'm setting sail to Tarshish running away, I am at fault. You take me and threw me overboard. But they say this person such a pious person,

01:26:53--> 01:27:06

why should simply be killed? So they try and throw the ship, but he had no success with the storm is yet dead. So he says that, why don't you throw me overboard, and finally they agree, and it will overboard.

01:27:08--> 01:27:21

When the thermowood the storm subsides, maybe it was a coincidence. Later on a big fish, a whale comes and follows to Nativity upon Jonah priest, Almighty God from the belly of the whale.

01:27:22--> 01:27:29

The whale takes Jonah, peace be upon him for three days and three nights around the ocean, and then vomits him out on the seashore.

01:27:32--> 01:27:34

What is the sign of Jonah Jesus peace be upon him says

01:27:35--> 01:27:49

that loose sign shall be given to you, but the sign of Jonah For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

01:27:51--> 01:27:52

Now I like to ask the question,

01:27:54--> 01:28:08

when Jonah was thrown overboard, was he dead alive? before you answer? I would like to make it easy for you. Let's see Jonah volunteers. He says I'm the culprit. I am responsible. Throw me over. If someone doesn't agree, maybe we'll have to break his leg. You have to break his

01:28:09--> 01:28:21

his neck. You may have to twist his arm. But yeah, he volunteers so you don't have to do all that. So they throw him overboard? I must no question when Jonah was thrown overboard? Was he dead? Or was he alive?

01:28:24--> 01:28:28

The fish comes and follows him was alive. Alive.

01:28:30--> 01:28:37

He prays to Almighty God from the belly of the whale. Was he dead or alive to dead men pray? Was it a delay?

01:28:40--> 01:29:16

The wage takes Jonah three days and three nights in the ocean that are life alive. Fish vomit him out on the seashore. Was he dead alive? alive, alive, alive, alive alive. When the person is thrown overboard in the raging fee, you're to die. If he dies, no miracle. If he's alive, it's a miracle. Fish comes and follows him. You're to die. He doesn't die. It's a miracle. three days and three nights, suffocation and hit in the belly of the whale. You're to die. He doesn't die. It's a miracle. It's a miracle after miracle after miracle. Miracle of a miracle of a miracle.

01:29:20--> 01:29:26

Jesus said peace be upon him as Jonah was to didn t night so shall the Son of man be treated

01:29:28--> 01:29:41

as Drona was tears and tonight in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Man we three days and three nights in the heart of Jonah was alive. But when I posed the question to my Christian Brothers, and they are, they are cousins.

01:29:43--> 01:29:59

When I posed the question to the Christians, that how was Jesus peace be upon him in the tomb according to you? And all of them say that he was dead. He was dead. I must mean question Jonah was alive. Jesus peace be upon him was dead. To wall Jesus peace be upon him.

01:30:00--> 01:30:01

Like, unlike Jonah,

01:30:03--> 01:30:05

like on like, unlike.

01:30:06--> 01:30:18

So Jesus peace be upon him does not fulfill the prophecy, he puts all his eggs in one basket, and faith, no sign shall be given, but the sign of Jonah, and you're, the prophecy is not fulfilled.

01:30:20--> 01:30:26

For the prophecy to be fulfilled, he should be alive. As I proved in the earlier part of my talk, he was alive.

01:30:27--> 01:30:32

Otherwise, Jesus peace be upon him will be a liar, no filler, which we cannot agree.

01:30:33--> 01:30:43

We respect him, we revere him. So for him to fulfill the prophecy, he should be alive, and Jesus peace be upon him was alive as a proof in the early part of my talk,

01:30:46--> 01:30:50

as I said, that for a person to be crucified,

01:30:51--> 01:31:09

he should be put to death on the cross, if he does not die on the cross, He is not crucified. There are some people who may say, let's see here, the main part of the sign is not dead or alive. It's the time factor time factor, you know, three days and three nights

01:31:11--> 01:31:32

as Jonah was in the belly of the whale, such as the Son of Man with three days and three nights, he's mentioned four times, the main important emphasis is 333. It is not dead alive. I say, What is so unique about three? If I say, I took three days and three nights to reach Delhi, is it a miracle? What is a miracle about three, three days of TV?

01:31:33--> 01:31:42

But they said, No, it is a time factor. Let's analyze whether Jesus Christ peace be upon fulfills the time factor which the Christian some Christians say, is the main theme of the sign.

01:31:44--> 01:31:45

As I said earlier,

01:31:46--> 01:31:49

and we know that when we ask the Christians, that

01:31:51--> 01:31:54

when was Jesus Christ, peace be upon him crucified, and according to the Bible, the Christians will say,

01:31:56--> 01:32:02

on a Good Friday, so we asked him, What is so good about the Friday, they say Jesus Christ is upon him died for our sins.

01:32:04--> 01:32:40

Therefore, it's a good Friday. And if you read that it was the trial was in a hurry, they will hurry for the trial, they were in a hurry to put them up on the cross, they will hurry to get him down. Because as pastor said, no one can stay overnight, hanging on the cross on the Sabbath, according to he didn't mention the reference. Deuteronomy chapter number 21, verse number 23, the land will get cursed. So they were hunted him down, and they give the baby a bath. And it is, by the time late in the evening, he's put in the supper club, late in the evening, and are going to gospel of john chapter 20, verse one, the first day of the week, Sunday morning, that the tomb was found empty by

01:32:40--> 01:32:41

Mary Magdalene.

01:32:42--> 01:33:04

Supposedly, Jesus was in the tomb on Friday night. Why do I say supposedly? Because the Bible does not say, when does Jesus leave the tomb, maybe left on Friday, late night or Saturday monitors in say, agreeing that late estimate of left is in early morning on Sunday. So Jesus was in the tomb Friday night.

01:33:05--> 01:33:08

Supposedly, he was there in the tomb Saturday day.

01:33:10--> 01:33:13

Supposedly, he was there in the tomb Saturday night.

01:33:14--> 01:33:23

Supposedly, Sunday morning, the tomb is empty. So he was there for two nights and Monday. But the sign says, three days and three nights, three days and three nights,

01:33:24--> 01:33:46

as Jonah was in the belly of the whale, such as the Son of man be in the heart of the three days and three nights, but Jesus peace be upon him was actually one day and two nights is three, then three nights equal to one day and two nights is equal to the secret. No. So even the time factor with the post about is not fulfilled.

01:33:48--> 01:34:29

The real thing is, Jesus Christ peace be upon him was alive. For a person to be crucified, you should die on the cross. Just to make it easy for the pastor in the rebuttal time, he has a list the major points, proving that he was not crucified. He was not resurrected, because he was alive. If he's alive, no crucifixion, resurrection, he was put on the cross and bought down very fast, in three hours in three hours is difficult for a person to die. Therefore Jesus was alive. When he's brought down even his two classmates. They are alive, proving that even Jesus was alive by number two. Point number three, his legs were not broken. What use is a broken neck to a dead man, proving

01:34:29--> 01:34:59

that he was alive. Point number four, that the stone was removed and the binding sheet for unbound proving that Jesus peace be upon him was alive. Point number five. That he was disguised as a gardener. Why? Because he was alive trying to be safe from the Jews. Point number six. The two was roomy. It was spacious. What uses a spacious two for that person. Proven Jesus was alive. Why number seven

01:35:00--> 01:35:12

That when Mary Magdalene goes to Jesus peace be upon visit, touch me not. Why was a physical abode he was alive, it will hurt him. He was in pain, proving that he was alive.

01:35:14--> 01:35:19

She still says, that I have not yet ascended unto my father.

01:35:20--> 01:35:30

That means he was alive. Point number nine, Mary Magdalene, not recognizing Jesus peace be upon him. Point number 10. That in the upper room,

01:35:31--> 01:35:40

he shows his hands and feet to prove that he was not a spirit, but he was alive. Point number 11 that they were overjoyed to see him.

01:35:41--> 01:35:47

Why? Because they thought he's dead and the spirit form, they were overjoyed to see because he was alive.

01:35:48--> 01:35:54

Point number 12. He ate a piece of royal fish and honeycomb to prove that he was alive.

01:35:55--> 01:36:22

The disciples had heard from Mary Magdalene that he was alive. Point number 14. The sign of Jonah, as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, soul shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth alive, alive alive, if either life, no crucifixion, no direction. So in short, Jesus Christ will be upon him was put on the cross of onto the Bible, but he did not die.

01:36:25--> 01:36:28

Now, the topic is was Christ really crucified?

01:36:30--> 01:36:39

If he's put on the cross, and if he dies, he's crucified. If he's put on the cross and does not die, what is one word that will use the English language

01:36:41--> 01:36:56

is deficient. If you look up in the dictionary for a word, for a person who's put on the cross, but does not die, you will not find anyone. So we have to call a new word. The best word that we can coin is that Jesus Christ will be appointed was not crucified, but you're affected.

01:36:59--> 01:37:50

It is not crucifixion CRUTFIX io n. But the truth is fiction, sci fi IFIC E I O And it's a fiction, we have to find a new one. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucifixion. He was Kuzey fictive. So I hope this ends the friction and the pastor will agree and the confusion will be removed from his mind that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was not crucified. There is no crucifixion. If I explain, but crucifixion, if I see the point, I'd like to end my talk by giving the conditions notice Quran from Sudan, Iran, chapter number three was number 54 with this one makuu makalah who were located marketing, they planned and plotted Allah to plan Allah is the best of

01:37:50--> 01:37:52

planner Walker Dhawan and hungry Lera

01:37:57--> 01:38:02

JazakAllah. Now we have the second part of the program the rebuttal session.

01:38:04--> 01:38:10

May I call upon pastor rockne to present his rebuttal for 15 minutes, Pastor rockne

01:38:15--> 01:38:18

Thank you, doctor, for your point.

01:38:19--> 01:38:36

I saw a lot of illogical discussion. Some of the things missed the spirit of the word in many, many different ways. so badly went illogical, is difficult to even discuss it. But just a few points. I'm making it I'm not commenting on everything.

01:38:37--> 01:38:58

A few points I'm just bringing about because my purpose here is not to win an argument. My purpose here is to present a solution for your life from sending Jesus the crucified. That's my person, even if I lose the argument. Okay. That's my purpose here. All right. Now, number one is

01:39:00--> 01:39:10

by talking about embarrassing thing in the Bible, is this. The Bible is so faithful in the truth is like a faithful mirror.

01:39:11--> 01:39:16

If I have ugly face, my mirror will tell me you're ugly.

01:39:17--> 01:39:22

If I have handsome face, my middle will tell me your handsome

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Bibles like that. That's why it represents both sides of people.

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It shows the sin and disgrace of people to what extent people sin against God. At the same time, it shows to what extent people could be pleasing in the sight of God. That's why the Bible is a balanced record of human condition.

01:39:50--> 01:39:59

You will not tell you St. Paul, a wonderful man never made mistake. No. He shows you the faults of simple you look at other literature

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Even Islam and other literature they make a man like God. J show him so perfect. Never made a mistake. Only Jesus never sent okay. Shows Paul his good points is by he was so bad temper I would never want St. Paul's to be my senior pastor. You see he had fights with his pastors. He had fight with Peter I think right about food or something, john, right. And so many other things. I would never show you both sides, many other things. The prophet or the servant of God,

01:40:32--> 01:40:33


01:40:34--> 01:40:38

in his secret life, he was practicing divination.

01:40:39--> 01:41:00

He had a couple of divination. He was a wonderful servant of God when he had a weak point. He was seeking the secrets through divination. It's it is it is not true. So many on so many people, they have the good points they have their bad points, the Bible show you that no one is perfect, shows you the good point and the bad points.

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Jesus is the only one who never sinned against God the Father even that when he was a small boy, he disobeyed his parents, but later he followed them. They he he did not accompany them, as it was expected for my young boy, 16 years old or 12 years old. Then when they came back, rebuked him, he followed them. He was learning he was good as a man he was learning the Bible says in the book of Hebrews, he learned he learned obedience. That means he was less and he learned that is the natural Jesus, but as far as sin, He never sinned against God. Okay? So the Bible is a faithful record, good and bad. You see, you want to see how a man can be read the Bible. You want to see how wonderful man

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can be read the Bible, a criminal like Paul can be St. Paul. God can make any one of us like that.

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This is as a simple, uneducated fisherman can be a leader of the world. read that in the Bible. You don't need a PhD you don't need some MSC you don't need some degree you read what what what john did an ordinary man without education he would he lead the whole world. Okay, so in terms of looking at the Bible, second thing the Bible's full of symbolism also many ways God talks about many things and symbolism. Right That's one thing concerning

01:42:26--> 01:43:05

concerning that capital are in small are in the dictionary, I have not examined that point. But from doctors a keys words I get it. resurrection with capital is given as an example of resurrection and I think he misunderstood it. He said resurrection means rising from the dead comma and example resurrection of Jesus from the dead capital. Ah, that was just example his misunderstanding of the sentence. I don't think it is a religious point of view. He's just example most dictionaries give you an example with the word so I don't think it's something to do with we Christian take capital R makes it resurrection of Jesus smaller resurrection something else? I don't think it's linear. It's

01:43:05--> 01:43:51

not that easy, is misunderstanding that way. Right. Now, another point he says crucifying the commandments with Paul talking particularly not the commandment itself. He's talking about what the commandment has passed judgment on me because I'm a sinner, that list of my judgments because of the commandments. That's the one that fell on Jesus on the cross. It is not not crucifying the Bible or crucifying God's word that is use that is meaningless, illogical. The law is holy and pure. The law was meant to expose sin not to heal sin, but to expose sin, but Jesus came to hillson Okay, so it is not crucifying the commandments, the crucifying the curses and the punishment that the commandment

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spells against me that list which is I have to go to hell, you know, that is the one which is crucified with Jesus. It's the curse that was crucified Jesus received cursing himself. Okay, but Jesus also did he the whole Bible, doctors is saying that nowhere in the Bible say Jesus rose from the dead. I was so shocked to hear that now I would, I would, I will, uh, took me just one second to located and my pastor located. You could read it sometime. Something in like, example, Matthew 28 verse six, read a little before laughter, Nita. And concerning Another one is, you look at Revelation, chapter one, verse 18. Christ through the Spirit, he talks about himself, I was dead now

01:44:36--> 01:44:59

I am alive. I was dead. Now I'm alive. There is no philosophy about it. There was a dead man, and now he's alive man. No, nothing, nothing playing in words or some Greek word or something very simple. Now, next thing is talking about being confused about whether this one looks like Jesus. There is a lot of mystery about the new body God promise to those who die in Christ and it will be revealed

01:45:00--> 01:45:38

about it. Number one, Jesus walked through the walls, the doors were closed, he walked through the walls, that new body is able to overcome the natural things. Number thing that body looks like is able to hide itself. See, Jesus walked with two disciples after he rose from the dead. The eyes was prevented from recognizing him to the way of email was. And then he explained to them the scripture explained to them scripture, and then he came to the house, he broke bread, then the eyes open his eyes. This is Jesus, not only Mary Magdalene did not recognize him. There are others who did not recognize him till the point he wanted to reveal himself then recognizing it looks like that body

01:45:38--> 01:46:25

had something very special. It can change its form. And why did why did Jesus show his hand? He wants to show something special on his hand. There was a there was a hole in his hand. See, I am the one See, look, the Pierce am Jesus sick, am Jesus you. He showed them an ad he showed them his side also because the soldier paste him on the side. See if Jesus or not a different one, this body having the mark of the cross, the mark which I receive, it looks like this body, even though it's a new body, but it has a resemblance of the old body. mystery. We don't know anything about the new body. But we know it is supernatural body, it has a new glory, a greater glory. And it resemble it

01:46:25--> 01:46:35

is able to attune to you could say that that is brother Rodney when he and resurrected body but at times I can't You can't recognize me I can. I can just walk through the wall.

01:46:36--> 01:47:05

I have a maximum body I can show you see, this is my mark. You remember there was a mark here. See that is something special. That that what Jesus, Jesus were trying to say the second thing concerning the two being big, it's very clearly written Bible. The tomb belongs to a rich man. A rich man will not go to a cheap, small room, he will have a nice spacious place for his full family. It's not a question, Jesus is living inside the tomb. You won't go and live inside a two minute maqbara Stan, that's not a good place for him.

01:47:06--> 01:47:53

It is very clearly rich mentioned that the two was provided by a rich man and a rich man you expect him to have a nice big tomb for his full family members. Second thing, just we'd like to remind you it was the custom from the time of Abraham to bury the dead in a cave, not in the dust. In some cases, people were buried in the dust, some papers, sometimes they were cremated. But mostly people were put in a cave. Abraham and his wife Sarah, they were put in a tomb, which is a cave, it was not buried in the dust. So this rich man provided stone cave, fitting for a rich man, big size and Allah. Now you may say why the stone was was open? The answer very simple, it is very clearly

01:47:53--> 01:48:37

mentioned, the angel of the Lord removed the stone. When one of those I think Mary Magdalene or some other came a mighty angel remove the stone and the US shook and the two soldiers got frightened and fell down like a dead two men. And the angels told these two women you don't be scared It's not meant for you to be scared. It is only for something I'm just putting my own words it is meant for these follow up to be scaled up for you. I have just removed it to show you look he's not in the to see the tomb is empty. That when it is it's the tomb was empty. That was the purpose of removing the stone to confirm to them that his body is not inside. His body is not inside there. The clothes

01:48:37--> 01:48:54

fitting a grave is not fitting for him. Their clothes fitting the gray for the grave that is a white cloth. There are people now nowadays that those days I don't know. It's not suitable for him just kept aside, folded aside the surgeon is folded aside. So that is concerning. The tomb is big. Yeah.

01:48:56--> 01:48:57

Okay, the next point is

01:48:59--> 01:49:12

concerning jornada prophets, Jesus said, like Jonah was in the two in the wave three days, and so on. So, Jesus did not say I'm going to be put in the whale's mouth.

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He did not say I am going to be in the whale's mouth and the whale will take me three days in the sea. He did not say that. He said like his similar to as an example of Jonah. I will also be three days in the bottom of the earth. If you want to take it literally. Did Jesus go in there and in a weird mouth? No, he was in a cave in a in a cave, which is considered to be a graveyard mcquistan it was a symbolism, just like Jonah was three days in the middle in the stomach of a whale. So I will be also buried in a tomb three days. Second thing it is mentioned in the Bible. On the third day heroes, it doesn't specifically say 24 hours and so

01:50:00--> 01:50:15

Many minutes, and so on, and so on 30 heroes. So what are the heroes one hour before one hour is not mentioned what time heroes just mentioned that they went early and they found odd rows. There is no specific time mentioned to him. And finally, I think my time is over. Finally.

01:50:16--> 01:50:58

I don't need the four minutes. Yes. Finally, I want to give you one point. I just give you one point. It is written in the Bible, the privilege of seeing the miracle of Jesus rising from the dead. That means seeing him after he was I mean, the other way, is not for everybody. It's only for those who believe, for 500 of them. They're 12 and 120. And some totally approximately 500, the whole Jewish nation because of their unbelief, unfaithfulness, rejection of God's purposes, they did not have the privilege to see Jesus rising from the dead. They did not see Jesus alive after his death. So you too, today, don't harden your hearts, and go the way of unbelievers because God will

01:50:58--> 01:51:26

reveal Himself to you. If you go the way of faith, received the words by faith, simple faith, pure faith, receive him as a gift from God, He will reveal Himself to you. If you had in yourself, you say this karma is twisted, right? And that comma is receipt left. And then you'll end up like the Jews be rejected. Don't do that. receive him tonight. Soften your heart, he you will receive forgiveness of sin and resurrection from the dead at the appointed time. Thank you.

01:51:30--> 01:51:34

Thank you, Pastor rockne. about one minute left.

01:51:35--> 01:51:40

May I now call upon Dr. Zaki to present his rebuttal for 15 minutes.

01:51:43--> 01:51:48

Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Allah Allah wasabia Jemaine, Am I bad?

01:51:49--> 01:51:53

Min ash shaytani r rajim Bismillah R Rahman Rahim. waqqas Jarl Huck was

01:51:54--> 01:52:00

in Nevada Karnataka. Bismillah R Rahman Rahim, Rob Bishop Elisa de well psyllium de

01:52:01--> 01:52:03

la Sahni Kohli

01:52:05--> 01:52:38

respected pastor Oakley. And he said that I spoke everything illogical, as the Buddha gave a logical reply to all of them. And he did touch on few of the 14 points that I mentioned a few of them which I'll reply, inshallah, to each and every and you be the judge who is illogical, me or the pastor. The pastor said that the definition in the dictionary or the check, but he agrees that I speak through the capital R, according to the dictionary, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, was risen from the dead, for resurrection, he has to rise.

01:52:39--> 01:52:49

I don't tell pastor to agree with the missionary, because he may not agree with me not agree, but he has to agree with the Bible. St. Paul says that

01:52:50--> 01:53:13

in First Corinthians, chapter number 15, was number 44, that resurrected bodies as spiritualize, Jesus Christ, peace be upon him say in the Gospel of Luke, chapter number 20, was the mechanics that the resurrected body is the engine life, the spiritual life, does he believe in Jesus, peace be upon him. So according to Jesus, peace be upon him, for him to be resurrected, he has to be

01:53:14--> 01:53:29

a spirit, not alive body, and all the 14 point which I mentioned, proves that he was alive. He said, that moving to the cross, the line, the commandment, who said that, Paul,

01:53:30--> 01:53:42

Paul, in Colossians, chapter number two was number 14, which went against the teaching of Jesus, the Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 19, was number 16 and 17.

01:53:43--> 01:54:17

Who says, keep the line commandment, I agree with Jesus peace be upon him, if you want salvation, keep the law and commandment Paul says nearly to the cross. And pastor said, all your good deeds are useless. If no crucifixion Bible says that two pints and approved there are no resurrection of Jesus Christ did not die. Point number three said. I said show me one verse in the Gospel where Jesus Christ peace be upon him is mentioned as he is resurrected, not a single quoted Gospel of Matthew chapter 28.

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was number 63rd. And I'm reading it He is not here for he is reading, as he said, Come see the place where the Lord Lee, he is risen. It is not said that he is directed. risen means

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I sleep and arise. Does it mean?

01:54:37--> 01:54:37

Does it mean that

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the pastor said he's all good. According to him, she was dead. The doctors, he says according to Jesus,

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she comes back to life. Why should a pastor know she was resuscitated? Jesus peace be upon him was not distracted from the dead on the cross. He was resuscitate.

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Point number four. He says the Bible says Jesus peace be upon him walk through the wall. Nobody's mentioned the Bible. It's an assumption. It's an assumption. No, it is mentioned in the Gospel he walked through. It's an assumption, which we can clarify. If you know the background, which time doesn't permit.

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Jesus wanted to show his hands and feet by two solo holes, who's saying that pastor, not the Bible, Gospel of Luke chapter number 24, verse number 37 says, that, Behold my hands and feet,

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it is I myself,

01:55:36--> 01:55:47

see my hands and feet. I myself, for a spirit has no flesh and bone, he doesn't say see the mark on the hands of nails. That's what he's saying that for Thomas wanted. Thomas wanted to see.

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In the upper room, he chose to say, I am not a spirit to prove that he was not distracted.

01:55:59--> 01:56:10

Point number six. He says that the tomb was big because it was a rich man's tomb, which already said in my talk, it was a tomb of rich and influential Jews, Joseph have died in high tech.

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Why? Number seven?

01:56:13--> 01:56:19

Why was the stone removed? And the pastor said, the engine removed the stone? I didn't ask who removed the stone?

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I asked, Why was it removed? And the pastor said to show to the people that Jesus is not dead? If I agree with you, for sake of argument to show to the people Jesus was not there. Why was it necessary for the binding sheets to be unbounded?

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The question is slapped together stone removed and binding sheets unbound.

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It was unbound and placed.

01:56:43--> 01:56:49

It is mentioned in the Gospel of john chapter 20. That it was unknown, and kept even Gospel of Mark Chapman was 60

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which there's no plan. The only answer is because Jesus Christ peace be upon him. He was alive. And because there's a life he had to unwind the sheets, as well as

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he said, that Jesus is not good to the world peace be upon him, well does he does.

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His English was very clear Jesus Christ.

01:57:10--> 01:57:12

In the Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 12,

01:57:13--> 01:57:50

was number 30 to 40. That as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, soul shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Jesus Christ did not say he will be treated in the night in the belly of the whale. I think you cannot understand the plain English what Jesus said, as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. So where is the question of he going in the belly of the whale? It's plain English, like Jonah was in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man be in the heart of the earth, Jonah was

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alive. So Jesus guys peace be upon him to fulfill the prophecy when he has to be alive. But the Christian says he was dead.

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So for him to fulfill the prophecy, yes, to be alive. The pastor said, time factor.

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And I do agree. Now the Gospel says he rose on the third day.

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So he fulfilled the prophecy of time factor.

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And there are other Christian missionaries, who when I spoke to, they said, that see, as pastor said, one day doesn't mean 20 for us, and for sake of argument, you can agree.

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And there was a missionary told me that if I go to New York, two o'clock in the afternoon, Monday afternoon, and then leave from New York next day,

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early in the morning,

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and if someone asked me, How many days have I stayed in New York, I will say two days,

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technically wrong. But for sake of understanding,

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today's did not mean spend 24 hours, if he says two days, he can take it. For sake of argument. The Bible says, I want a pastor to agree with him. Jesus Christ, peace be upon him rose on the third

01:59:01--> 01:59:22

part of a day can be taken as a full day. So if I agree with Pastor don't go into the details, you know, when was he put into the tomb late in the evening on Friday, if he says only in the evening, I agree. For sake of argument. He says afternoon I agree. He says, suppose that Jesus Christ upon did not leave the tomb early in the morning on Sunday. He left in the afternoon. I agree.

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So Jesus Christ, peace be upon it was

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part of the day, take it as a whole. He was Friday, one day, Friday night,

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Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday morning, even if you stretch and give a few hours here and there. It comes to three days and two nights. The sign of do not even say as Jonah was three days in the belly of the whale, social the Son of Man with three days in the heart of the earth. It says as Jonah was three days and three nights, so shall the fun of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

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Three then tonight.

02:00:03--> 02:00:12

It is not till the end the night, whatever gymnastics to try, even if you ask Einstein to help you, you can never prove from the Bible, it is treated and three nights never.

02:00:15--> 02:00:27

And if a Christian missionary does mean that he goes to New York, two o'clock in the afternoon, leaves next in the morning, it is two days, and we agree. But if he says, I stayed in New York for two days and two nights, I will tell him he is a liar.

02:00:29--> 02:00:29


02:00:30--> 02:00:32

maximum you can fish two days

02:00:33--> 02:00:34

is part of the day

02:00:35--> 02:00:40

is a full day for sake of argument. But you can never say today's and tonight if he says that he's lying.

02:00:42--> 02:00:50

And he says the last point it says that no one saw Jesus Christ please be upon in my life, which have proved in my talk. And I've given 14 points,

02:00:52--> 02:01:10

which he touched on a few which have again clarified logically that Jesus Christ peace be upon him was alive. That means, according to St. Paul, according to Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, according to Oxford Dictionary, according to Webster's dictionary, he was not crucified, neither was He resurrected, if he's not crucified.

02:01:12--> 02:01:13

No crucifixion. No.

02:01:15--> 02:01:20

And in this talk, pastor said, and he explained very well in the talk about Original Sin.

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And he said, that

02:01:24--> 02:01:33

every human being and a part of the teachings of the church, every human being is born in sin. Every human child has the taint of the original sin during this in which he described.

02:01:34--> 02:01:46

He rightly says, what he described, but the production is not logical. He said that Adam and Eve upon them, they disobeyed God, and they ate the forbidden fruit from the forbidden tree.

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Therefore, Almighty God, He punishes them.

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And he says, that removes them from Paradise. Isn't that enough?

02:01:57--> 02:02:11

it for the season you've referenced. It's Genesis chapter number three, verse number 16. He says, that you man, you shall toil in labor and a woman, you shall be the desire of the husband, and you shall the labor pains, pregnancy, the curse.

02:02:13--> 02:02:14

After that,

02:02:16--> 02:02:51

the Christian say, that every child that is born from the time of Adam, till the last child born till the end of the world, is born in sin, I must no question. When Adam peace be upon him in the forbidden fruit. Did you ask me? Did he ask me for eating? No. He may have asked the past I don't even ask me. If he didn't ask me, why should I be responsible? Why, illogical? Is God illogical? No. I'm dystopian medicine that God sent His only begotten Son, beloved Son, for sacrifice so that he can sacrifice for the sin.

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Let's see what the Bible has to say about that. The Atonement of Jesus Christ gave his life for the sins of humankind.

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And it says anything. And the Christian missionaries also say that you know, the soul that sinneth it shall die.

02:03:09--> 02:03:47

It's mentioned twice in Old Testament, Ezekiel, chapter 18, was number 20. Ezekiel chapter number 18, was number for the for that tenant shall die. But if you read Ezekiel chapter 18, verse number 20, that's not the end of the worse. It is only the starting of the verse, the complete verses, the Christian missionary says, the soul that finishes shall die. Therefore, every human being is born in sin, therefore have to believe in the crucifixion, to get salvation. The complete verses, Ezekiel chapter 18, verse 20, the soul that sinneth it shall die, but the Son shall not bear the iniquity of the Father, neither shall the father by the iniquity of the Son, the righteousness righteous shall

02:03:47--> 02:03:55

be upon him, the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. It continues, next verse, chapter 18, verse 21, okay, the key, it continuances, but if

02:03:56--> 02:04:40

the person turned away from the sin, and he does all that is awful and right, he shall live, he shall not die, who says that Bible, Old Testament, Ezekiel, chapter number 18, was number 2021, you shall not die, if you righteous deed, you shall not die ghsp upon him says, If you want salvation, keep the laws and commandments. It is Paul, who says that if Christ is not risen from the dead, our preaching is vain, and your faith, and have proved that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, was not really crucified. And people ask me that. Do Christians have one particular view only about disaffection? It's a misconception that all the Christians have only one view that Jesus guys peace

02:04:40--> 02:04:54

be upon him was really crucified. It's a misconception, because there are biblical Christian scholars who say that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not die on the cross. He was put on the cross, but he was born down he was alive.

02:04:55--> 02:04:58

In early Christianity, there are no less than seven sects.

02:04:59--> 02:05:00


02:05:00--> 02:05:06

Believe that instead of Jesus there was somebody else put on the cross. It's known as the substitution is hearing.

02:05:07--> 02:05:09

The early baton Indians who believed in that

02:05:10--> 02:05:13

the car pocket or Christian, they believed in that.

02:05:14--> 02:05:24

Nazareth believed in that the Corinthians he believed in that the Christian is many effects believe that instead of Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, somebody else was put on the cross. If here's the Gospel of Barnabas

02:05:27--> 02:05:30

Tasha may not agree with that. He was a contemporary of Jesus peace be upon him and

02:05:31--> 02:05:50

he says that instead of Jesus peace be upon him. Judas was put on the cross. If you read the scrolls of ninja Maddy, it says, Jesus Christ peace be upon him was crucified all Christian. I didn't say these things in my talk, because pastor will say, I don't believe in the Gospel of Barnabas, I don't believe in this quote of Naja Maddie so what does he believe in?

02:05:52--> 02:05:59

He believes in the Bible. So proof from the Bible, that Jesus Christ peace be upon him, he was not crucified.

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And they say that this case peace be upon him, he died for the sins willingly give it read Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 27, verse number 46. And the Gospel of Matthew chapter number 15, verse number 34. With Jesus on the cross, he cried out, Li Li,

02:06:19--> 02:06:24

li li la Motta botany, which means, oh God, oh God, why hast thou forsaken?

02:06:25--> 02:06:54

Imagine Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, willingly go on the cross, and then crying on the cross. Oh, God, oh God, why hast thou forsaken me? proving that he did not go with me on the cross? Why should you cry? And everybody will pick up whether the English Bible whether the Hebrew Bible, whether you pick up the Marathi Bible, or don't do Bible, do original Hebrew statement is de la la la botany and then the translation, Oh, God, oh God, why hast thou forsaken me to prove that Jesus Christ upon him did not bring it on.

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And I would like to say in the conclusion that Jesus cast upon him, he was not crucifixion was crucified.

02:07:05--> 02:07:14

And I like to get the translation of the words, which I decided at the beginning of my talk from Raj apitherapy University when he says, what was jar Huck was

02:07:15--> 02:07:23

in Nevada Karnataka, when truth and falsehood cause two parishes for falsehood is by its nature bound to perish, watered down and hungry later.

02:07:31--> 02:07:32

Now, we would have

02:07:34--> 02:08:02

the third session of today's evening that is the open question and answer session to derive maximum benefit in the limited time of approximately 15 minutes that we have for the question and answer session. The following rules should be observed. Your question should be only on the topic. was Christ really crucified? Questions out of the topic will not be entertained.

02:08:03--> 02:08:07

Kindly state your question briefly and to the point.

02:08:08--> 02:08:11

This is not a lecture time for the questioners

02:08:13--> 02:08:23

bester rockne and Dr. Zakir should answer comprehensively, and their answers should not exceed five minutes.

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Only one question at a time may be asked for your second question. You would have to stand at the back of the queue again and await your second chance.

02:08:37--> 02:08:43

Four mics have been provided in the auditorium for the questions from the questioners

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to next to the stage for the gents and to in the rare for the ladies. If you wish to ask a question to pastor rockne,

02:08:56--> 02:09:24

you may please line up behind the mic, which says question for pastor rockne. For example, the question mic on my left next to the stage is for pastor rockne for the gents. Similarly, the mic on my right hand side next to the stage is for questions for Dr zakat. Similarly, in the ladies section, it's written on the mic a slip.

02:09:26--> 02:09:36

written questions on slip papers, which are available from our volunteers in the aisles would be given secondary preference and only if time permits.

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Kindly state your name and profession before putting forward your question so that the speakers have an appreciation of your level of question and give an appropriate response.

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We will allow one question at a time in a clockwise rotation. Alternately addressed to each speaker.

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May we have the first question from the gents?

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On my right. For Dr. Zaki.

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My question is true for Dr. Sakina.

02:10:12--> 02:10:15

Jesus was crucified for the sins of humanity.

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can a person be or someone else change? Without the question that can a person

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be crucified for somebody else's sin? And it's a very logical question, part of it I had covered in the rebuttal. And I proved from the Bible, that according to the Bible,

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the book of Ezekiel, chapter 18, was number 20. And 21 says, that the soul that sinneth it shall die.

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But if he turns away from the sin, and does righteous did, he shall not die, and neither can the son by the nature of the Father, neither the father can bear the nature of the Sun means I cannot be responsible for my father's sin, neither can my father be responsible for myself. A similar message is given the Quran in several places, if you read in Suriname, chapter number six, was number 164. In surah, israa, chapter number 17, was number 15.

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It's mentioned in fact, in chapter 35,

02:11:17--> 02:11:31

was number 17, and Azuma chapter 39, verse number seven, in several places, it says, that no bearer of burden can bear the burdens of another same method as chapter 18, verse number 20.

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That means sin cannot be inherited, pastor and his talk, that in the example of Abraham will be upon him, that God asked his son to be sacrificed. And I do agree with the pastor, people will do testing.

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And at the last moment, he puts a lamp.

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That means Almighty God, he's just, he wants to test his messenger. But while testing, he does not want to harm

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the messenger, he cannot see that the messenger

02:12:05--> 02:12:06


02:12:08--> 02:12:51

while testing and imagine, now you have the messenger Jesus peace be upon him, himself, is put on the floor for somebody else's sin. It goes against Ezekiel, chapter 18, verse number 20, sin is not inherited, if Adam peace be upon committed sin, I will not be responsible for the sin he has committed. And like an example, if I give you there is a master a rich person. He has many servings, it has the sovereign, don't do wrong things, etc. But they did the wrong things. So it has them. So this is my son. I love my son. And he kills that son. And then he says, All do solvents. We used to rock we used to cheat. Now just believe that I killed my son for your oven, and I will give you

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salvation and give your wages. Does it sound logical? The sovereigns rob the cheat, because last to the Master Master said nobody, you have my son, I kill him. Don't change your style. Just believe. Just believe that I killed him for your sins, and I forgive your sins.

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It sounds logical, illogical, Almighty God, putting it on sun, and we don't agree the sun.

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We don't agree the Begotten Son, as a righteous person,

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the person of God we agree. If the Messenger of God in that sense is the Son of God, but not the Son of God.

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Yes, brother, for them respected.

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In the Bible gospel of Marx is chapter 16, verse 1718, it says, and this sign shall follow them that believe in my name, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues, they shall take up serpents, and if they drink, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not harm them. Now, if this is true, can you

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bring this poison or deadly thing? Because according to me, it would surely harm you.

02:14:08--> 02:14:51

But as you're a believer, it should not harm you. Can you prove this to us by drinking it any way, if anything happens, we are not responsible for it. See, it is written in context of people serving the Lord. And there are times like it happened in China and Russia, people were forced to take poison in that context, not in the context making fun of God. In that context, you will have the power over these kind of things. So that in the context, if you are a believer, nothing should happen to you, not just you're a believer in a context of serving the Lord and not in the context of making fun of God. So you will you have put forward your question, let the speaker respond in the

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manner he wants. Your question is over, you can hold your bottle and send them without speaking. Yes, it is written concerning Christ if he falls

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He will not break his leg, the angels will protect him. Satan wanted him to jump and prove it. He said, No, don't tempt God, I give you the same answer. Don't tell God.

02:15:15--> 02:15:19

The next question from the ladies section for Dr. Zakir Any question?

02:15:20--> 02:15:21


02:15:23--> 02:15:43

Sakina My name is Ezra. And I would like to ask a question, that question of Jesus peace be upon him, being crucified or dying, only arises for the sin of humanity, human only arises if he is gone. What is the concept of divinity of Christ in Islam and Christianity?

02:15:45--> 02:16:23

This is a very good question. I just like to come in on the other answer that pastor, and I'd like to congratulate him. He said, in his talk, that Jesus Christ is what does miracles. And from this, your faith increases. And when he came to Bombay, he had a disease like spondylitis. And I know being a doctor. It's a very serious disease, and Jesus Christ peace upon him, and he has a pamphlet on that. See, this guy's gave life to a girl. He says, Now I think faith has gone down. He doesn't want to have the poison. Maybe faith has gone down. If you had believed and had the poison, his faith has gone down, and I congratulate him. He's coming back to his original faith that is Islam,

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02:16:26--> 02:17:05

is upon him said in the Gospel of Matthew chapter number 24, verse number 24. It says, for they shall arise many false and false prophets, and they shall show wonders and miracles, and if it was possible, shall deceive the very like. miracle is not the test to prove that you are divine or not, that you are a man of God or know that whether your faith or not, according to Jesus, peace be upon him. Sisters, very good question that what is the concept of divinity of Jesus peace be upon him and Islam and Christianity? Again, one was insufficient. So reminder, chapter number five was number 72. It says, Look at cultural the Xena column in the law called masoumeh. They are in their blasphemy,

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those who say Jesus peace be upon him, the son of Mary is Allah subhanaw taala baccara mercy, but set Christ yeah man Israel of Israel, Abdullah worship Allah Robbie, who's my Lord and your Lord, no missionary Pilla and anyone who was a partner with Allah, Allah Allah Allah, Allah Jana, I love it make dinner for him. Mama Hunan. salamin inside and five Shelby's dwelling place and he shall have helpers in the hereafter. If you associate partner with Allah, if you say Jesus is Allah, genitive haram for you, no salvation for you.

02:17:39--> 02:18:16

What does Christianity say? As I said, there is not a single unequivocal statement. In the complete Bible where Jesus Christ peace be upon him himself says that I am God Almighty says worship me. I challenge any Christian, including the pastor to show any unequivocal statement, the complete Bible where Jesus Christ peace be upon himself says that he's got over it says worship, they can be certain statements which can be assumed, but in context is verified. In fact, Jesus says, It's mentioned the gospel of john, chapter number 14, verse number 28, my father is greater than I, gospel of john, chapter number 10, was number 29. My father is greater than all.

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Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 12, was number 28. I cast out devils with the Spirit of God, Gospel of Luke, chapter number 11, was number 20. I cast out devils with the finger of God, gospel of john, chapter number five was number 30. I can have my own self do nothing as I judge, and my judgment is just for and seek not my will, but the will of my Father, if anyone who says not my will, but God when he's a Muslim,

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and Jesus case will be one of the Muslim, not my will, but the will of Almighty God. He says, In the Gospel of john, Chapter 14, verse 24, the words that you hear are not mine, but my father's who I sent me.

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gospel of john chapter number 17, verse number three, this is life eternal, so that he may believe in Almighty God and Jesus Christ, whom thou I think, is mentioned in the book of Acts, chapter number two was number 22. That Yoda is right, Jesus of Nazareth, a man a proof of God, from amongst you, by wonders and miracles, which God did by him, and your witness to a man a proof of God amongst you, by wonders and miracles which God did by him. So Jesus Christ peace be upon him. He never claimed divinity, he was one of the mightiest messengers of Allah subhanaw taala. Thank you.

02:19:38--> 02:19:56

Maybe have the next question from the ladies section for pesonic. Believing in crucifixion or resurection, is the only way for salvation. And if Jesus died for the sins of humankind, then how will the people who lived before Jesus attained salvation

02:19:59--> 02:20:00

This is very effective.

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on topic, it is mentioned in many parts of the Bible, something which have an answer to this. The cost is central in history. The Christian look behind 2000 years ago, have faith in Jesus, timeless, they are saved, because of the faith in Jesus, the believers before Christ, Abraham, and all the famous faithful people, they look forward by faith, they were prophets, they look forward by faith, to the times of Jesus, they have faith in him. And therefore they save it is mentioned that when they die, because of their faith in Christ of the future, then Jesus when he died, one of the first things he did, he went down whenever they were kept captives, and he set them free, because they

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died in faith. They could not go to heaven, because the price for the sin was not yet paid. But they were kept safe in custody, some spiritual place, and Jesus went down the deep places and set them free. And when Jesus died on the cross, many soul tombs of holy men of all times open, and they walked in Jerusalem. They saw them with their own eyes.

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So the past tense people look forward for Christ in faith, they were saved by the act of Jesus on the cross, the present people that myself and many others look behind. And they are we are saved because of our faith in Jesus, the cross, his effect is timeless.

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The cross is timeless, for past humanity, future humanity, present humanity. Thank you.

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Yes, read your mind. And I'm a student.

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In the upper room, Jesus appeared in a form of spirit, isn't this proof that he died and was resurrected?

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The Buddha has posed the question

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that Jesus Christ upon him, he appeared in the form of the spirit in the upper room, isn't that proof that he died and resurrected?

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The worst according whether it's some Gospel of Luke, chapter number 24,

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was number 37, which I gave in my talk and described, it says that the disciples were terrified and affected.

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They suppose that he was a spirit supposed

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they thought he was a spirit.

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It doesn't say that Jesus Christ was a spirit. And to clarify, the next few verses did assist in the Gospel of Luke chapter 24, was number 13, and 14, he says, Behold, my hands and feet,

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it's I myself, handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones. It was a mistake. on the part of the disciples, they thought he was a spirit, which was clarified by Jesus peace be upon him that you check, see my hands, see my feet, and we come to know that I'm not a spirit. So even appointed that verse, it gives proof that he did not die, and he was alive body proving he was not resurrected. Thank you. Yes.

02:23:10--> 02:23:33

Good evening. Good evening, I'm going to ask you a simple question. But it is not from the subject, because you have not touched the subject at all. To my knowledge you have spoken about. I mean, many things, Bibles, and the Paul's teaching and everything, but you have not talked more than five minutes on the subject. So whatever you have spoken, I want to ask the question on that only. You said,

02:23:34--> 02:23:58

Moses has written five books, the price books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These were written by Moses, if Moses has written the books, how he would have said, that no one knows my dead, war against the dead. And Moses was 120 years.

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How is it possible?

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So the person goes, you know that the Bible is not the original English language, returned Bible, it is from the coin, a Greek and Arabic, Aramaic, it may be Hebrew, Hebrew and Aramaic. It is that is a translation. The Bible is a translation. So whatever you have returned, know something you are, you said to angels remoto stone. There you have written angels in the original Greek, it is a word sin. Zen, you are translated into angels. When it comes to the question of disciples. I mean, John's there you said, disciples, no, you're playing with the words. Now you tell me which version of the Bible is correct. You have different versions. And what language is the Bible is vention is I don't

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think it is English. Because if I am ally, thank you, brother. No question. It's a very sentence is a very serious to hear because I have not understood

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Anything from the pastor about the subject? Because he has spoken about the Moses, Jesus. And these are that to me, I have to ask the question accordingly, you have to relax the rules, please. So this is the question, I am going to ask you What language is in the Bible, whether it is English, or some other language? Suppose, you know if I am alive, I'm sharing this feeling something pasterns you have to explain to me what language is that?

02:25:36--> 02:25:37

Hello, and

02:25:44--> 02:25:44


02:25:45--> 02:25:48

Brother has a very complicated question.

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And one day we'll go for a chaiwalla sit together and discuss it together.

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It's a simple question. It's a simple question. Which version is a true version? And what language Moses has spoken? Moses being alive?

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Brother goes by to Brother.

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Let the audience decide whether his answer is right or wrong or whether he's given the enough

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brother You cannot be the judge alone. He has given the answer you can

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give me one in two minutes, Brother, you can excellent. He said Bible is a mirror. Bible is a mirror. Listen, brother, we appreciate your enthusiasm. We appreciate your enthusiasm, but you should understand our rules.

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I will repeat.

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Brother, we appreciate your enthusiasm. We appreciate the answer given by Brother Rock near said we will discuss it with chaiwala You're welcome. He is he'll pay for it also. Right brother ugly. Okay. Ready? That's it. Maybe we have the next question for Dr. Zakir from the ladies side. Assalamu alaikum. Brother, what is the concept of Trinity and how is it related to crucifixion?

02:27:08--> 02:27:09


02:27:10--> 02:27:22

stuff was a very good question. That what is the concept of Trinity? And how is it related to crucifixion? If i x i orient thank you for clarifying that. That is difficult for me to answer.

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Again, Islamic viewpoint

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and the biblical viewpoint Quranic viewpoint biblical.

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Again, Quran gives the answer. And from Isaiah, chapter number five was number 73, lack of cultural nesina carlu in the La salisu selasa. That they are doing their blasphemy, those who say that God is three in one, that Miss Trinity, and inserting chapter four was 171 faith, Walla, kulu selasa. Do not say Trinity. This has stopped it, it's better for you.

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Well, aku selasa, the virginity is mentioned in the Quran, no less than two times.

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But if you pick up the Bible,

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in the complete Bible, the word Trinity is not mentioned anyway.

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If you read the big encyclopedia, it is more than twice the size of the Quran. Actually, no, this is in small writing. This is along with Arabic and English and commentary. The Bible actually is twice the size more than twice the size of the Glorious Quran. Nowhere will you find the word Trinity. Nowhere. The closest verse that any Christian can come to regard the concept of Trinity is from the first episode of john, chapter number five was number seven receipts, for there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.

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The closest verse, the guy in Trinity first official of john, chapter five, verse seven. And if you read the Revised Standard Version,

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this is the King James version, which I've shown, which is the most popular.

02:29:02--> 02:29:07

This is the Revised Standard Version, but I want to know which version I mean answering the two in one and trying my level best in five minutes. 10

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rst revised, and a new version. Version means

02:29:14--> 02:29:22

the authentic force differs, and the Christian boasts of 24,000 manuscripts of the Bible, but no two identical

02:29:24--> 02:29:39

This is the New King James version, which refers to this is the dual version, which has 73 books that thrown out seven books out of this with the Catholics refer to as a fabrication who has done that.

02:29:40--> 02:30:00

The traditional pastor the Bible, is the New King James version has only 66 books. It's a different Bible. There are various Bibles various. And if you have more than 25 different versions, more than 200 different types of Bible, you can come and refer to it. Coming back to a question in the Revised Standard Version, which has been revised by title scholars of the highest end

02:30:00--> 02:30:05

minutes, backed by 50 different Christian corporate denominations.

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They said that the King James version has got grave defects. And when they revise this, they have thrown this worse, which is the closest resemblance to Trinity first episode of john chapter five, verse number seven, as a fabrication, as a concoction, as interpolation.

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The third out,

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not Muslims, not Hindus, to Christian scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 different coffee nomination, they've thrown this word, which is the closest resembles Trinity as a fabrication. The word unity doesn't exist.

02:30:40--> 02:30:56

Jesus can never claim divinity, as I mentioned earlier, and in the Catechism of the church, they say, the father is a person, the son is a person and the Holy Spirit is a person, but there are three persons one person, person, person, person, but not 3% 1%. What is this?

02:30:57--> 02:30:58

One plus one plus one is?

02:30:59--> 02:31:01

Three, but the Christian says one.

02:31:05--> 02:31:26

And if you ask the Christian, that when we think about the Father, what are the mental picture and a Christian, you draw the mental picture, like Almighty God like Santa Claus sitting in heaven, with the author footstool, many faiths, the word or the sun, or Jesus peace be upon him, somewhat like Jeffrey hunter in the movie King of kings, Jeffrey Hunter, blonde, a

02:31:28--> 02:31:42

white man look like a Jew. He doesn't know polyphenols, but they're different. And when they speak about the spirit, something like a dove that came with john the baptist was baptizing or like the smoke at the Feast of Pentecost,

02:31:44--> 02:32:03

three different picture. But when you ask the Christian, how many pictures Do you see? He says you want, however much you try, you can never impose the three pitcher as one. But when you ask them how many pitches, they say one they're lying to you. Because one plus one plus one is three, it is not one. And they give the example. Let's see,

02:32:04--> 02:32:27

the concept of Trinity is very difficult to understand. A person can be a father can be a brother, and can be a businessman at the same time. So why can Almighty God be Father, Son and Holy Ghost? I said fine. Let's analyze the example. Suppose is a person with a father and a brother and a businessman. Suppose the sister goes and say something to the brother, a secret, but natural, even the father in that person will know it.

02:32:28--> 02:32:51

Even the businessman will know. But if you read the Bible, from the Gospel of Mark, chapter number 13, was very good says JSP. From says that of that day of that noise, no man knoweth no in jail, not even the son, but the Father in heaven. That means of the Day of Judgment. Even this guy doesn't know even the angel doesn't know even the spirit doesn't know only Almighty God knows. That means they aren't

02:32:53--> 02:32:53

the untrained one.

02:32:55--> 02:33:08

The Trinity is the concept which is illogical, how much you try. You cannot suppose suppose they say that JFK Airport if I agree with him that on the cross do mean that even God died on the cross.

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We would request as we are allowing the questioners to ask any odd question he wants to ask. We would request them to bear with whatever answer is given by the speakers. On my right, left pastor rockne and doctors are killed, whether you like it or not, they have a right to answer in the manner they would like to even if they refuse to answer. If they refuse to present any answers, they have a full right for it. That is the decision even if they don't answer they have a full right for not answering.

02:33:51--> 02:34:01

Let the whole audience be the judge. You can discuss the details after the program. Maybe have the next question from the ladies for pastor rockne

02:34:03--> 02:34:40

past i would i would exhort your patience please the speakers as well as the audience. In the beginning of your talk, you said that the evil is actually taken out by man himself. It's not given by God. But then according to the theory of original sin. You say that the man is born with this in so don't you think it's a contradiction? Can you please clarify? Yeah, man has inherited not sin, but the nature of sin. Okay, that means man has inherited

02:34:41--> 02:34:51

the tendency of sinning. But suppose a baby dies What happened? He's innocent will go straight to heaven. That's what I believe. Okay. But

02:34:52--> 02:34:59

the baby is not going to pay for the price for his daddy and all that you know because as

02:35:00--> 02:35:47

Brothers akia referred from the Bible is correct. He is not responsible for his father's fault, as far as sin and punishment in Hell is concerned. Okay. So, nature of sin I inherited from my father, Adam, I sinned because I'm a sinner, understand tsunamis in nature wanting to do wrong things because that's, that's what I inherited, okay? Not there. So when man starts sinning himself is counted against him himself. So that resolves the problem. Now, second thing, man does inherit curses, there is sin, and there is curses Bible indirectly in various places and not a good time to talk about it.

02:35:48--> 02:36:41

I don't pay for the sins of my father. But I do inherit curses, and you experience it in your life. My father did a lot of mess, but he died not thank God he died a believer. But I suffer today because a lot of wrong things he did. I inherited No, not not, not my accountability to God as a sinner, not my accountability to God as a sinner. Okay, but he did a lot of things which is sinful. And it happens that today, I am facing a lot of difficulties in life. It's a curse, it's a curse. So distinguish between sin and a curse, distinguish be sin and a curse. Curse is a harm as a result of sin. Is that damage which sin does? Okay? So there is two things Christ can do to my life. Number

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one, he, he obtained forgiveness of sin for me, so I will not be accountable to God, I am forgiving my sin. Number two, he breaks the curse of my life. That's what the Bible says not only is having authority on earth to forgive sins, but he also took Michael curse upon himself. He became a curse on my behalf. Whatever curse was supposed to be mine. You believe in Him, the curses start breaking from your life, curses start breaking from your life. So you distinguish there is sin, and there is curse to do different things. I hope I have answered properly, I hope, but at least I

02:37:23--> 02:37:24

just read the question for Dr. Zakir.

02:37:26--> 02:37:35

Dr. sakeena. Thank you. My name is Richard. I'm a Bible student Bible lover and also fitter by trade. I'm a technician.

02:37:36--> 02:37:50

You refer to the Bible speaking about Jesus saying that they will be like angels, spirit body like spiritualized. Also, you said in the Bible, there is no way mentioned No, nowhere mentioned about the resurrection.

02:37:51--> 02:38:19

I will quote just one and many other. This is Matthew 16 was 21. It says, From that time both began Jesus was soon to his disciple how you must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things, the elder and the chief priests and the scribes and be killed and be raised again the third day, and this is a three times and all the Gospels mentioned it not only so the Bible speak about how he's hanging on the cross for six hours, gave up his ghosts, after crying Elia lava, sacani

02:38:20--> 02:39:00

wise of fulfilling the scriptures, then we see all the four gospels mentioned above his death, about his burial and resurrection. Now you say Jesus cannot live with respect to the spiritualizing of the body, which is a nother topic, glorified body is different spiritual heavenly bodies, different people are better than angels. Today we are worse than animals. So how does this come come about to be? In fact, I'm not having a discussion. I'm a I've learned by God's love and mercy. And I've got the answers to all your 14 points. And I would like to come to Islamic Research Foundation and give you these answers biblically, not to win an argument. I would I would love to, because it's true

02:39:00--> 02:39:39

that Trinity is not in the Bible. It's not this but Jesus Christ being divine. I can let us know scripturally and even your conscience even though creation with that, I give you three I brought many things in the Bible. What the original there is a numeric there is a mathematics in the Bible, which can it's a it's a perfect, it's proof. So I've got this thing so everyone can avail of them. Mathematics brings to the main question, please, please. No, this is my question that how Jesus Christ mentioned many times, that he will be killed and he will be rising again. Again, if you want another quote I will give in chapter 20 verse 19, which are and shall deliver to the Gentiles we

02:39:39--> 02:39:43

mock and Scourge and shall crucify him and third day shall rise again.

02:39:44--> 02:39:48

Okay, just feel you just feel no problem.

02:39:51--> 02:39:52

Yeah, I

02:39:53--> 02:39:54

gave you a little

02:39:57--> 02:39:59

Bible as all the religions

02:40:00--> 02:40:07

Every Sunday we have program at IRF at Rudy's. You can get the address every Sunday, every Sunday 1030. And after the talk is over, you can ask any questions.

02:40:09--> 02:40:34

You can even know I'm just telling you, we love it. We love it we like to discuss in friendship for better understand the Bible, brother. You can even ask on the Bible, no problem. Not ask I will tell you. You're most welcome. Like you told me just now. But he said he quoted from Gospel of Matthew. And he quoted what he quoted. Jesus said, He will die and he will rise. He said that I agree. He will die and he will rise in a second coming he will die and he will rise

02:40:44--> 02:41:13

and bad resurrection in the Second Coming, which is mentioned in the crime. The Bible will be the two resurrection. Through that, and to resurrection, what you're saying that what you put on the cross, you died. You say that from your status. But when you check, I do know some people say, Oh, we saw him dead. The soldier says, If you read again, gospel of john Chapman negative coalition, gospel of john chapter 19, verse 33, we saw him to be dead. Like our pastor for the girl to be dead. He's not expert, he said like a lay man. So when the soldier like a lay man for him to be dead.

02:41:17--> 02:41:26

Today testify did doctor request endoscope, he requires the pulse we have machines like ECG eg heartbeat brain and yet doctors make mistake

02:41:28--> 02:41:29

you're aboard with me.

02:41:30--> 02:42:08

So many articles, a person died for three hours. And then he got back to life. Three days seven in South Africa, in Philippines all these cases doctor testifying with instrument with instrument you're a soldier layman testifies. That doesn't mean he's dead. We that we can be done. So then you can you can go back to the current asking the question, Oh, come on Sunday. So it was from Jersey where they died or not actually, I proved 14 point you said two grand. So all you haven't answered a single, he was alive, he was alive, he was alive. That means he was not resurrected, he will be resurrected. I believe every Muslim believes.

02:42:09--> 02:42:26

In the second coming when he comes. He will be resurrected. And the Quran says in Jeremiah chapter number five, verse 116 117. He says that, oh god, you be the witness. I never told them to worship Me, as Almighty God, but I said to law, worship Allah,

02:42:28--> 02:42:58

my Lord and your Lord Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. He preached nothing, but what Almighty God wanted. And he preached that we should worship only one God, not worship Him. And I said that earlier, there is not a single unequivocal statement. You said there are a statement in the Bible, saying Jesus was divine, there is not a single unequivocal statement. And the complete Bible by Jesus Christ peace be upon himself says there is God already says worship. Yes, he will come again. He will come again for what

02:42:59--> 02:43:41

the Quran says in chapter 4158, that Allah subhanaw taala raised him up unto himself. He was raised up alive, for what? In a second coming, he will not teach anything new. The Quran says from Isaiah chapter five, verse number three, Islam on this day chosen for you, your religion, and chosen for you, Islam is completely a fit for you. Nothing new can be taught, he will be coming in the Second Coming not to teach anything new to the Muslims, he'll be coming in the Second Coming to testify that I never said you worship me to testify that I never claimed divinity. And others mentioned the gospel also, in a second coming people will say oh master or master did not do wonders and miracles

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in your name to Jesus will tell them he men of iniquity, he sinful people to depart from your I don't even know you. Who would you tell that?

02:43:50--> 02:44:12

To Hindus to Christian? You're claiming great miracles in my name. You get out from your I don't even know you. He will come in two seconds. I mean, and that time, as the Quran says in Surah Al Imran chapter three verse one and if I could do nothing back at every soldier, our test of that he will die like a human being and then inshallah he'll be resurrected. We are waiting for that before the day of judgment if you do that.

02:44:16--> 02:44:55

Yes, brother. I have a question for you. for Muslims, there are four to five major criterias, which he has to fulfill, to enter into Jannah but has given to understand even from your talks and even from the neighbors have heard that for being a Christian to since a Christian, sinless Son, listen, listen, they'll be wiped up or they'll bear their sins will be wiped out because of the sins which are inherited which are taken by Jesus. So that means that if a person tonight, if you accept that Christ has died on the cross for the sins of the mankind, does it mean that his sins, past and future are wiped out and he will enter into the gates of heaven.

02:44:58--> 02:45:00

It is written in the Bible. If you

02:45:00--> 02:45:14

You believe in Christ. Of course you believe in Christ means what he did and what he taught. And he confessed sin. You said, confess me, use your tongue said me receiving generally in your hearts, then your sins are forgiven.

02:45:15--> 02:45:40

And you're this. So my my interpretation, it means this, your destination is changed. You're not even having that moment, small question relating to the same. Yeah. Now that means if I read the Bible, I believe in each and every word of the Bible, I believe in the death of the Christ, the crucifixion, the so called crucifixion, then tomorrow, I become a rapist, or I became a terrorist, and I go and killing everyone still entering Ghana. You see,

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if you if you have genuinely believed in Christ today, you will not be rapists tomorrow.

02:45:53--> 02:45:55

Why not always possible,

02:45:56--> 02:46:37

life will be so changed tree The thing is, you're lying, you did not receive Jesus. The thing is, there is only one single statement which shows that you have to believe in Christ, that He died for the cross, that he died on the cross and died for the sins of the mankind that is the only criteria which I know even in your talk, we have said the same thing. If you believe in Jesus, your faith is interpreted acts of faith, according to the book of James yaku. If your faith is not counterfeit, not pretending your faith will produce things in your life. But if your faith is a counterfeit, just to just to show, then your faith will not produce acts of faith. So suppose I'm a criminal today. I

02:46:37--> 02:47:23

believe in Jesus, I repent asked forgiveness of sins, all these things comes in believing in Jesus. Repentance means I have changed a turn my way. I'm no more wanting to walk the way of sin, then God will help me and I will succeed. Not following that old way of living. My life has changed. Now I may commit mistakes. That doesn't mean I have abandoned the faith as small baby. He loves his daddy. Still, occasionally, he disobeyed his daddy, there is a level of disobedience. Okay. There is a level of disobedience and there is a level of rejection and rebellion. So if I summarize it, if I believe in Jesus, today, I repent, ask God forgiveness, God will break my sense. If I have genuinely

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not just pretending he knows the secret. I'm saying it in words or not. And then that will produce things in my life. I was in Kuwait. There are many people who are playing in words in Islam. And one person he confessed that he's Muslim. And he said, Allah, Allah, Allah. So because he wanted to take the custody of the children from his wife. So somebody taught him the trick. If you say that, then the Sharia will say, the children belongs to you, because your wife is Christian. So therefore, they will be in your favor. He did. So he did. So then they told the Mullah, who was a judge. He's just saying Lalalalala he doesn't mean it. He said, No, no, no, no, only God knows the intentions, where

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he said it, we heard it, it's a proof. He's a Muslim. Only God knows the intention that was even just playing games in words, you know, really want to take custody of the children. Now in the Christian faith. God knows whether you're genuine or not. If you really believed in Jesus, God will break sin over your life. He's done it, they are drug addicts are broken, even medical couldn't help him. But they succeeded. There is an organization called Teen Challenge. They got such a big percentage of success. Even the best rehabilitation for drug addicts, they never succeeded. They only get 2% 3%. And the boys go back and the boys go back and the boys go back these people

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successfully, people for years, they broke the tracks because they're basing on helping helping the children on the basis of faith in Christ. Christ is a practical solution, not just a religion, a nice fancy drawing and some lovely book with a little bit of colors and all that Christ is practical for a daily living.

02:49:01--> 02:49:06

Yes, maybe have the next question from the ladies. Dr. Zakir

02:49:08--> 02:49:11

any question for pastor rockne from the ladies

02:49:12--> 02:49:18

accountable to God for our sins, then why should Jesus be crucified for us? See, my

02:49:20--> 02:49:36

question is for pastor rockne Yes, yes, by will God punish Jesus for us since if we are accountable to our sins? Why should Christ died for us? And the second part peace or peace? Can God punish Jesus for us since no, see?

02:49:37--> 02:50:00

That the law exposes sin, that is Law of Moses before Jesus, He tells you their standards of God expectation for man. Basically, he tells me how senior handsome how sinful I am. Okay. So, really sin has no remedy. As far as human is concerned, there is no remedy and the law of Moses is a country

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formation sin has no remedy, whatever you try, you fall again. Now Jesus came to break that chain. Okay? Now I told you at my talk earlier, if some friend of mine died for my sin, his death has no value in the eyes of God, because he's only accounted for himself. But Christ is very unique. Christ is a man who is not worthy of death. He's God took flesh on himself kept his power as God aside, okay, and walked as men. Now, as far as sin and judgment on him, he's not worthy of death. Therefore, he is a blameless lamb. No one on this earth is a blameless lamb in that sense. So therefore His death was, it was very precious, and the value was, fits that only this kind of person

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dying, and there's only one such person in history, that only then he has that unique office, that he he can take away my sin, no other person can do that. So that that is the reason because they his, his being not as committed sin, makes him that blameless, acceptable lamb before God, that that is the reason why his position is very unique. That's the reason I hope, I hope I made it.

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Okay, his position as sinless person who is not worthy of death,

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that makes him the perfect lamb acceptable to God, to receive sinner people. So that does not mean that we are not accountable for our sins, if you just believe in him. You see, I just mentioned to the gentleman believe is translated into real acts of faith. There are people who believe just for some various benefits, maybe you'll get some, some good salary from some foreign organization there. Many people do that. God knows the secrets, okay? But I'm saying if you believe your life is show, your life is show, okay? Judas Iscariot, believed. But really, it was not really fair. Afterwards, we saw for the sake of 30 pieces of coins, he betrayed his master. Really, from beginning he didn't

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believe that was a counterfeit belief, conditional belief, belief, only things goes well. Okay, so the book of James says, If you believe your life would show, okay, it's not believe I don't mean just say words, you know? I mean, say words II mean, it's okay. I mean, in a sincere heart, asking, acknowledging my helplessness because of my sin, and asking God to forgive me in the name of his son, Jesus. That's the only way to receive forgiveness of sin. Whatever you do, there is no other way. Sorry. But if you're saying that God to the flesh and bone,

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thing you have put your question for the claim. We cannot have another question

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for the answer, I mean, we can try your

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comment. I said, my pastor that a true believer in Jesus Christ will never become a believer or become a rapist tomorrow. But if you see the Christians are on a hole, you see that every Christian do sin. So that means you're trying to say that no Christian is a true believer of Jesus Christ.

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You're talking about non believer Christians. There are many people who have the labels are being Christians. There many people are having the labels of being Christians, and they're doing atrocities. And they're even the British when they were in India, in my personal opinion, if it hurts you I don't mind. I'm sorry. But they misrepresented Christ in India. They were Christian name. Like if our My name is Sharma, I'll be called Tony and Joanie, the if I become a Christian, really hardest, not change only external? Don't these are not representative of the faith of Jesus. There are, there is I said earlier, there is believers, Christians, and there is traditional

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Christians. They're not the same as traditional. They're just mix up of religions, just having a label of Christianity. That that way, you're looking at the people who are traditionally two different things. We Christians, we don't worship idols, we don't put photos and bow to it. I asked my pastor, we don't do that. In the past few years, I started reading the Bible and the Torah. And I stopped doing that I never knew. I used to worship idols, I used to pray to the dead spirits. And God is forgiving, forbidding such things I never knew I was also called Christians. I will also call Christians I used to pray to to persons other than the Almighty God,

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mediator, a mediator of mediator and mediator, a mediator, a mediator and all these things, God, only God can forgive since and you're mixing between a person having a label Christians and a person who is a believer, Christians. I'm talking

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About the Bible Christians about those who believe in the Bible. Those are dynamic crushes those type of Christian are talking about. Okay? So you you maybe have seen people who don't believe in the Bible, they just call Christians, they may be having some Western name or something.

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Now we just allow another three more questions before we wind up those who are staring out requests, no further people who come up and queue up because you would not get a chance. We have one brother here will allow one more brother. And I think that he is we have been waiting for a long time. Okay. We'll allow you the third question before we close the session. The management has given us 10 minutes. So

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you're telling that in the Bible somewhere, it is written that when Jesus came back, the disciples were terrified, and they were afraid? why they're afraid when he is not dead?

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That's the question that

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when GFP we will go to the upper room, but the disciples had gathered,

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why were they afraid when you're not dead? That the question was asked during the talk? Why would they have written answers given? Because they thought you're the spirit? They thought he was a spirit?

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Telling me so they did not know that. But he said, Okay, come tomorrow, up your day, and you can hear everybody's scared and run away from you. I agree with you. I agree with you, I suppose if I read in the newspaper that this person fell from the 10th floor, yeah, and you think he's dead. But tomorrow, if he comes, I'm gonna get scared. But it does mean, when I fell down, there was a lot of hate going, I didn't die. It from your childhood, he had fallen and he died. But when it comes, I began to examine him, I shake his hand, he's alive. So initially, I'll be afraid. But when I check up with him, I'm not afraid. Similarly.

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I'll give you time, you can come again you can come drive. Let me complete them. So they thought. The Bible says Gospel of Luke chapter 24, verse 37, they were frightened and terrified, and suppose him to be split. Suppose Who says that? Not exactly like, Who says that? Look, they thought him to be a spirit. But then he says, handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, then the overjoyed, further afraid, because they thought the other spirit, when you prove to them, you have no spirit, devoted, who say that gospel of the Gospel says that Jesus was dead.

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And he was buried.

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And then he comes. You said that I'd rather you said that? I don't know.

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And when you ask a question,

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excuse me, the your brother, you've asked your question the speaker has given his response. I think God has given most of the people here, good heart, a good mind. And they can decide for themselves, we are not going to comment on it. What the decision of the audience is, let them decide for themselves. That is the basic premise we had of this friendly discussion, so that we come to a better understanding of each other's viewpoints, and not fight over it. Just understand each other's viewpoint in its proper perspective, we have two experts who know their job, let them give the answers. If you know it better. Tomorrow, you hire a big hall, and maybe invite someone else and

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people will come and hear you. They are happier in your now. Yes, brother, you can carry on with the answer. All the states will go from here say they thought him to be a spirit because they had heard that he had died heard from your say they weren't eyewitnesses who says that Gospel of Mark, chapter 14, verse 50, all of them fled at the most critical juncture of the life of gfpt upon him, they're all force who can lift it? Who says that? The Gospel says that they fled for some years. And he proved to them by showing his hand that he was not a spirit. And pastor said, and he gave the reason for salvation, the question two questions posed earlier, and the pastor said that if you believe in

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Jesus Christ, peace be upon him, he has died for your sins. And then after that we should not see I don't get it, that if someone has paid for my sin, and what is the problem in me doing sin?

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If someone tells me go to a restaurant, the leader bar, I've paid for our bills, eat as much as you want, and then sell don't have chicken and say why you have paid for that bill? manella Chicken don't have mutton I say why didn't you told me a lie? When you told me that you paid for everything, whatever you have, eat as much as you want for your full life. Now why are you telling me don't have chicken? Don't have mutton that me told me a lie. So Jesus Christ paid for a sense of what is the problem and as raping what is the problem and as Robin?

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So this logic, if you understand, it doesn't go into the logical mind of a person of themselves.

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That's the second last question for

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03:00:00--> 03:00:10

Know that every country have his criminal law, and anyone who is doing wrong thing is going to be punished according to the criminal law of the country.

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And because even though even though if you take up the newspaper, you will see a 1000s of murders and waves and a lot of things are going on in the world, I suppose, as you said earlier in your speech, in the being in the beginning, that Jesus was already crucified, he was not crucified for his sins, but he was crucified for the sins of human being for the sins of Christian. If we believe that Jesus was crucified for all Christians, then what is going to be the situation of the world

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shall is complete, it is written, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that anyone who believes in him will have the gift of salvation. Not so potentially, it is for you, and for everybody there who is going to go into the hand to handle the situation after that, if everybody starts believing that, yes, and I can kill you right now here. And I can tell you more into the code that Mr. Jesus is crucified for my sins, and you cannot testify me.

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Then can you write on the paper, that he this guy should not be testified that Mr. Jesus already crucified for him?

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I have answered this question earlier. And the book of James, in Hindi in your courses, if you really believe you will not kill me.

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You will write me you write it and give that if Mr. If the car is killing today, here

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and he should not be testified tomorrow in the code of the law of the Indian Constitution. Yes. Can you give me writing now? Just a minute.

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I will believe tomorrow that Mr. Jia was Jesus was crucified. I will be live tomorrow and I will be a perfect Christian. See, there are two things in sin. As I said there is sin and there is damage of sin. Okay. There is sin itself. A simple thing I can tell you. You are a believer. You are a believer, a perfect believer is a Christian.

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Today morning I told my daughter, I want to know each and every

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table from one to 20. You read it, and I will I will listen in the evening.

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Just to keep me happy. She learned everything she kept in mind and repeated in the evening. Mrs. Reagan is not a Christian. He's a Muslim, but he can quote each and every verse from your Bible, any Bible.

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And you are a believer, you say I'm a believer, I am descended and I love Christ. But you cannot go to single life. Bible.

03:02:48--> 03:02:50

Brother, brother,

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03:02:56--> 03:02:57

I would

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I would request you to maintain, have to put forward your question. Rather than passing comments on what the speaker knows or doesn't know that is his right? What he knows or doesn't know. You just put forward your question and await an answer I mentioned there, there is sin, there is sin, and there is a result of sin. Okay. Now, for example, I have a poor man who just survived by little food. I'm a thief. I robbed his food and he dies he got no food to eat. Okay, some time back some time later, some faithful God's servant, come and tell me, You're a thief. And you should not do that. Then I realize I've done a horrible thing which cannot be repaired is a man died because of my

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robbing. But he reforms me as Jesus to forgive me my sins. And then my destiny is changed. My destiny is change. That is true. That's a fact. It's a promise in the Bible. It is God's word. But can I repair the damage? I have killed him and I denied him his food answer is no. Then the police will catch me and according to the law of the country, I may have to be hungry because of that. Yes, I have to bear the consequences of the harm I did. But But my soul is safe because my destiny is change. God has wiped my sin from his presence. But there is a damage I caused, which is so serious, and there is a price for it in this earth. So many since they're so serious. I cannot repair it even

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after becoming a Christian. There is another situation. I do a minor thing. Let's say I cheat Sunday. And then tomorrow God convicts me asking forgiveness god, I'm sorry for my sin. I have cheated soggy soggy take your pen back. I have cheated you that day that says minor sin I can restitute it is possible to destitute but the case where a man died because of my being a horrible person earlier cannot be restituted and there is a low in the country and I have to bear the consequences of that. So there is the sin and it is the damage. Not all damage can be repaired.

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For example, if I am alcoholic, very heavy drinker, all my youth was spent in drinking at the old age are some faithful servant of God comes and attend me ask God forgiveness. I asked for forgiveness in the name of Jesus, I receive a free gift of salvation free of charge, haven't worked for it. God changed my destiny. But what happened during all my youth have been drinking beer, and my liver, develop fibroid. And then slowly, slowly, I waste and die because of that, the damage of sin all my life has damaged my life. But thank God, my soul is saved. See, this is the this is the damage of sin I have done all these years. But my soul is saved because I asked forgiveness. It's a

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free gift. It's a free gift. God take the justice that I deserve out of me and putting on Jesus. That is the strange the strange exchange that Jesus takes it from you and put it on himself. Nobody is willing to can do that. I hope I answered.

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Yes, yes, brother, this would be the last question for the evening, we would request the audience to be seated after the answer for another one or two minutes. Bear with us for a few minutes. Yes, brother. My name is Sonny Matthew. I'm a member consultant name of my company is sigma, mentor and marketing Private Limited. Well, the question

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to doctors again, is all the debate subject what we have today is was Christ really crucified?

03:06:39--> 03:07:08

Asking a counter question is not the answer for the question. It's a simple logical theory, the subject of today is not whether this is as restricted or not that subject when you're dealing it on the problem, the evidence for the resurrection, which we can find out only from the Bible. And it is a belief of the Christians. And as you mentioned, you're not believing in case you are not believing

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Bible is a word of God. And then you are taking the quotation from Bible and proving that and growing that restriction is not taking place. And then saying that is why the crucifixion is not taking place is a good logic. But when we approaching the subject, I personally believe it is not right one another point.

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Yeah, the same question. It's a continuation. But one more point on that. Now, it is a historical fact. The crucification, or death of Christ is a historical fact, where the historian says return on that Jewish historian called Josephus has written about,

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about the about the crucifixion of Christ. And it was not a secret in a rally. The people has been tortured him and crucified on that. Then what happened to crisis crisis not died, whether he has hidden some errors, either his body has taken down from the cross, and it has been laying down there are people witnessing it on that. But how can you deny on this and the last continuation? Because I'm the last person to question a

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03:08:20--> 03:08:21

already asked, I think

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you'll get a brother. Yeah. We will.

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We will just let him answer the three questions. In fact, the management has put a limitation. Yeah. let him answer the three questions. If time permits in the management permits, we might want

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to answer a common

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question and answer time. Yeah. When you are allowed to ask only a question, as a comment, you can come to the IRF column to your place, whatever you agree to do that after the program is over. I can't allow it now. Please, comment, please. I cannot allow you now maybe have the answers to the questions already posed to developers for question. He said the topic was was Christ really crucified and oppose the question was resurrected. And then he said, because he's elected, you will not resurrected, therefore is not crucified, you're going in the opposite of what I was trying to do is kill two birds with one stone. I do not have another debate whether or not

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two birds in one stone. If you did not die, he was crucified. If he did not die, he was not elected to possess one stone. So even if you remove the water direction, yet, the arguments remain the same. And you can have the video later on. When is religion first I said, if a person doesn't die, he's not crucified. And then I went to say that for resurrection also that is required. So I'm killing two birds with one stone trying to prove that Jesus Christ did not die. If he did not die, he was crucified. If you did not die, how can you be resurrected and killing two birds with one stone but I'm sticking to the topic.

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Moving away from the topic, because both these things are important, according to Paul, First Corinthians chapter 15, verse 14, that and if Christ did not die,

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and rise, our preaching is vain. And your faith is. So I'm killing two birds with one stone, you can refer to the question you asked next question that historians have said, Jewish historian, that he has been crucified. Do you know how much of material has been written on price has been really crucified, double the material that he was not crucified historical record, we can come to

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I can quote venturi went to the German philosophy. He said St. Paul is I can give you how many names you can give, I'll give you the continuance of historians, not Muslims, Christian, non Muslims, I give the names.

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The fourth question, if Jesus Christ peace be upon him, did not die. What happened to him? Was he put below the earth, etc. I feel it in here my talk

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and metadata and my question session, I made it very clear in chapter four was 157. Mamata Luba masala boo, they didn't kill him, neither did the crucify him. It was only made to appear. So next was chapter four was 158. It says that Allah subhanho wa Taala raised him up my life. I've said that, that he was raised up a life unto himself, Allah subhana wa Taala raised Jesus Christ peace be upon him unto himself. It is even mentioned around him around, check number three, verse number 55, that he was raised up alive, and you becoming again in a second coming. So all your four questions have been answered. And the pastor said, what I have got from his answer, which he gave earlier,

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every time I meet a Christian, I get a new answer. He said that certain damages cannot be repaired. He said that it is the only video. That means for certain sins, Jesus Christ cannot be

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what I get to understand

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what I get to understand, every time I meet a new Christian, I get a new ideology of Christianity. That's for small since Christ has paid peace be upon him a big thing he has not paid. Therefore understand. Therefore, understand. Yes, but there are some coming.

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Brother, just you can just ask your question instead of a comment, because one is five minutes. There are yet to three minutes left, I will allow him to answer only in the three minutes not to five minutes. Yes, rather quickly, a question quickly the answer within three minutes. Okay.

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Now the entire argument which you are given based on the biblical coatings, and when actually the subject was a crisis, really crucify what you have there to talk from the Quran. Quran when you're saying, if you're saying a statement, and if you're repeating a statement, that's not an argument, I say there is a God and I say 20 times there is a God, that's not an argument, argument required subsequent support. So what support you can give from grant for Christ is not crucified Ireland of the statement, I expect a replay not to get the clap from the audience, but for an in non Muslim can understand. And getting a fair clap is simple, but under making others understanding is difficult.

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So not to get a clap, but to make me understand on that

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very good question, that if you make a statement, it doesn't become a fact. It should be from authentic source. And I do agree, if I quote from the Quran, Jesus Christ peace be upon was not crucified, who did not agree by the point of view, the Quran is not authentic, I would no problem. But for the Muslims, it's authentic. They said the word of God for them it is sufficient proof. If I say anything from the Bible, what happened to Christ? It may not be proof for the Muslims, but for the Christian it will be Do you agree the Bible to be the Word of God or not? You agree, God, he agrees. So proof from the Bible, Jesus gave us not to survive. Why do you require historical proof?

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Do you think historical proof is superior to God's Word?

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Don't clap. Don't lie, please, he doesn't want you to clap. He wants to understand.

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The proof should be I mean, it's a matter of faith. That's why it was so good. That side I'm saying as long as you're convinced, I'm not here to convince the non Christian to convince the non Christian I can give historical proof we can have a new debate. If a non Christian covenant tells me that he

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got it wrong, I mean, either quotation which or quarter is right, but it has picked up from a wrong place which has mentioned incidents rather hazard allegation, as quoted rightly, but out of context. You give the index no problem. It's a friendly discussion for understanding come to if you give the context and we discuss it. You're most welcome. I'll come and meet you then.

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jazak Allah. We thank God Almighty for making this easy

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Good evening of understanding

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each other's viewpoints between two major faiths of this world possible for all of us present here. We would like to thank the India gospel mission and the Islamic Research Foundation for getting together to organize this program. I would like to personally thank pastor rockne pesticides he Dr. Zakir and all of us present here today Jazakallah khairan. May God reward all of you.

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Every morning on every news

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I hear the some

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it seems like every bad is lost in ski trying to make sense.

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And there's a trend

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to improve so many faces pass me

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as seen lonely hearts living lonely legs, just bad in bed.

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Many people living in