Rulings on Abortion and IVF in Islam Q&A With Dr. Hatem Al-Haj
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a Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala Rasulillah who Allah Allah he will be here woman wala Hammerberg. For today's q&a, I am very honored to be able to host Dr. Hatem al Hajj one more time. This is our second time hosting him, and a very brief introduction he has asked me to cut down on his introduction nonetheless, you should know that Dr. Hatem al Hajj Alhamdulillah. He is both an MD and a PhD in comparative in Islamic Studies from a Janani University. He is a practicing pediatrician. He is the former Dean of College of Islamic Studies at Mischka and a permanent member of the permanent fatwa committee of Amgen, the American
Muslim jurists Association, Dr. Hatem alhaja. As always, it's a pleasure and an honor to have you on our q&a Hamdulillah.
Same here, Hamdulillah. So Shekinah, today, we're going to be talking about an area that is an actual mashallah lived experience of yours, which is medical practices in light of the Sharia. And I wanted to really discuss some very pertinent and very common questions that Muslims ask. And we'll try to begin chronologically from pre birth, all the way up until the issue of very end of life support systems. So we're going to go over a number of issues and scenarios beginning from the very beginning, which is the inception of life. And one of the biggest questions that so many people ask in our times, is the Islamic ruling on ending pregnancies or the issue of abortion. And before we
even dive into the fear of ending pregnancies, let us first discuss Shekinah, what is the Islamic position on the beginning of life, and the controversy over 40 versus 120. So if you can begin with that in shallow data, and then then let's move on to the issue of the controversies over ending pregnancies?
Well, I think that they are very related. So it's very proper to start by talking about the beginning of life because the ruling of abortion hinges on the concept of the beginning of life or the beginning of human life if we were to accurately describe it.
So when it comes to the issue of the 40, versus the 120,
the issue has become a little bit more of a controversy nowadays, because we know that embryogenesis pretty much finishes around 40 Some days of age. Now, that's 56 days of the gestational age, the way that doctors
measure it, you know, this is extremely important also, because this creates a lot of confusion between the medical terminology and the family terminology. When we talk about the age of the pregnancy, in medical terminology, it starts from the first day of the last period before conception, in the FIP terminology that starts from conception. So you have two weeks of difference between the medical terminology and the fapy terminology. So when the when the doctors talk about
four weeks, like a four week old fetus, they they're talking about the gestational age. So the fetus is actually two weeks not for from a therapy perspective, because Feck starts from conception, which is, you know, more accurate, you know, conception, but for the doctors since, this is how they have always measured gestational age because we they did not know exactly when conception took place. So the doctors always used the last period before conception, and they started counting from the last period before conception. So this is to be remembered because it will be very relevant when we talk about the the the ruling of abortion, but essentially, in, in Islam we we count from conception. We
you know, in medicine that embryogenesis pretty much finishes before round 5657 days of gestation, which is about 4042 days from conception. It is extremely hard for doctors to do
Basically, it is extremely hard for
you know pretty natalensis neonatologist doctors in general obstetricians
to comprehend that issue of the level of service which is reported by Bukhari and Muslim and Abdullah animus road
is he is certainly a towering figure in Muslim history like a great for P. And he said that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and he said Saudi Masuko sadaqa Musto the trustworthy, truthful one. So he said that the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said in that huddle community macrocarpa will be working on if he wasn't the only he or by in our men not for some icon or Allah Katha mistress Alex americano metropolitan mistress Erik Sommers, religion Malak, and
thereby cut him out. So he says, the Prophet sallallahu sallam said that the creation of one of you will be brought together in the womb of their mother for 40 days in the form of a drop Zen, for 40 days in the form of Hanukkah, which can be translated as clot or leech, whatever it is, you know, Annika lots of blood, and then for 40 days in the form of Matata, which is a chewed lump of flesh.
And then that the angel would be sent down to breathe the spirit into him or the soul into the fetus. And then it will be commanded regarding formatters to the end of the Hadees. Now we have another Hadith that is reported by Muslim from zifa, which provides a different sort of
And it talks about the aims of the sending after 42 days.
So is Mr. Robin not fun as an attorney or owner, yeah, woman, when 42 days have passed by, then the angel will be sent. And
then the angels will basically fashion it and create its hearing sight, skin, flesh and bones and bones, and then please the soul into it. And that is I'm not sorry, this hadith talks, then about the writing of the destinies is
after after the creation of everything, including the bones. Now, the two are have these
seem to be conflicting?
Because it you know, and uncertainty scholars like paying for instance, goes to like, extreme lengths and trying to reconcile between the Hadith and he uses his genius and reconciliation, but does not honestly.
You know, it's just not possible. You know, no matter how genius you are to reconcile between those two are Hadees. One hadith is talking about the creation of bones and have no claim you're just like a very sort of genius idea. He says that it is like a pattern that is made the first time and then it will be sort of executed afterwards. So that the first time the angel comes down, and makes creates the bones and the flesh and that it is like angels making a pattern and afterwards all of this will take place. Now what compounds all of this is that Allah subhanaw taala and Surah
talks about like a certain sequence. Allah says well, it says well I can feel like not in sediments. Well ultimately We have created man from an extract of clay. So I'm gonna turn now who knows for 10 people are in McKean. Then we made him into a drop in or we place him as a drop into a firm lodging. So my Filipina mozzarella, then we made the drop into a clot. So for Kalapana Allah cutter motiva
sat here is not like some map. So, there is no lapse of time here. Then there are like, immediately thereafter we made the plot into
how we made the plot into that should lumbar slash to Haluk non motorized arm and then we made the multiple into our bones
seven and a half Amara
More than we cover the balloons with flash so much now who can't come after some here indicates some lapse of time between the last phase and the following one. And then we made him into a new creation and alira the one who said that new creation is the human life, you know, so I leave wanted to say that them here, human life starts. So man China, Hong Kong, Africa after all of this.
the one way to reconcile between the two Hadees is actually to not accept the the sort of the obvious apparent implication of the hadith of Abdullah manifesto, then it seems that because of the status of an anonymous road, he had,
you know, the hadith of took sort of like a secondary
sort of level of importance or that if I was if I was not
considered to be here
what you know, the the default
was always considered to be the default. And everybody's trying to reconcile the hadith of zifa so that it may eventually agree with the Hadith probably 11 or so. However, we know also that there are different variations of the hadith of Abdullah animus road, and one of them
may have the answer.
So, so, when the Prophet sallallahu sallam said that the creation of one of you will be brought together in the womb of their mother, as a drop for 40 days, then it will become a then it will become a Halaqa
in a seminar for a seminar duration, and then it becomes a Model A tooties or lump of flesh for a seminar duration. One of the narrations reported by Muslim says for me Hakuna Allah cotton seeds Alec Mr desertic then it will become a Holika o'clock in that for a similar duration. So, humanism is an uncanny Rahim Allah Tala said that everything happens in the first 40 days because it will become a no it is not far and then Allah antenna motiva for a similar duration but everything is happening fees Alec in that in that what is that the 40 days not the womb. So, in that refers to the 40 days to the duration, not the place. And that is sort of linguistically sound because the Prophet
sallallahu sallam said in Nevada Community Mental Health poofy Buck Naomi are by ina Yama. So, one of you will have his creation brought together in the womb of his mother for 40 days, the last thing he mentioned is not the womb the 40 days. So when we say that, then he will be in that
he will be acquired in that for a seminar duration. The similar duration is not another 40 days, the seminar duration is that it is not far for like a period of time within the 14 days. And then Annika a clot for a duration similar to that of the Netfabb all within the 14 days. And then it will become a multiple stand within the 14 days. It is extremely hard for anyone
who, you know, it is extremely hard for anyone who practices medicine to basically accept that the fetus at one at 119 days from conception, which is 143 days for gestational age is still in the form of a model. Now someone may say that this is all because of you guys. You try like the people who's sort of
it's all sort of modernist interpretation of the modal, whoever told you that. motiva is not like a full blown human being a small human being and the form of a fetus because you know, by 119 days you will have everything you'll have. All the organs will be complete by 56 days. And the baby will have grown and will have fingers and will have toes and will have everything
So people may say, Whoever told you that this is not a multiple. The problem is that in Surah termino, it clearly provides a sequence here, where the bones come after the mother Kalapana Matata environment, then we have created the mother or made the mother into bones, then we have
basically covered the bones with flesh, then we made him into a new creation. So if you want to respect the apparent implication of sorts, you know, the apparent meanings of Sorokin Norwich are quite obvious sort of I'm sorry, certainly you don't, which is quite obvious, you will not be able to reconcile the hadith of Abdullah animus road and therefore, the bottom line is, we cannot accept the apparent implication of the Hadith of the ravenous road, that it will be 40 days not far, 40 days of Aloka 40 days of Madiba, everything happens in the first 40 days. So she has to you raise a very, very deep point. I wish we could discuss this more. But what you have done and of course, you
know, I'm very sympathetic to this. But what you have done is you have taken external evidence that is atrial Delilah that is definitive. And that is the evidence of that we know of embryology of the knowledge of the period of gestation, the gestation and the development of the fetus. And you've then looked at the various ahaadeeth. And you have made to GIA you have examined these narrations and chosen based upon a knowledge that you know of that is definitive, which version seems to be more authentic than other versions? And, of course we can, that's a very deep soul discussion, also the discussion, but just wanted to point that out that this is something that one does find
throughout our history, where people are looking at the narrations within a reasonable framework. This is not against this is not embracing modernism of progressivism, this is actually from within the also that I had assumed, oh, Gemma, that sometimes definitive knowledge which is outside of narrations is used to then interpret or to even make the gap between various narrations that's an interesting point here, but the point is that
if you look at I know that this was part like part of your PhD thesis, but if you looked at the sort of the ethnic they may have a Razzie also great Imams have a had a sunnah and Pannonian quality or the universal law by Rossi. It made me I did not really refute did not really claim that conclusive rational evidence will be denied or rejected. He just said that, you know that the rational evidence is not one undifferentiated category. So we will have to divide the rational evidence and figure out what is conclusive or definitive and what is not. And also the wacky, it's not all conclusive, because there could be, you know, different implications. So we have to divide this into conclusive
and non conclusive, and we will always favor that conclusive evidence, regardless of whether it was rational, or scripture. Exactly. So in fact, in my PhD, I actually have a section called Ibn Taymiyyah is a modified version of the colonial Cooley. So it's not as if he rejected the entire notion of Qatari evidence is outside of the Quran and Sunnah. Rather, he had a modified interpretation where he claimed that if there was a definitive or Kotori knowledge that is outside of the Quran and Sunnah, that the Quran and authentic sunnah could not and would not contradict that call to evidence, which is a slight modification. So the bottom line before we move on, so we are in
agreement, therefore, that it is really the 40 day mark, where the Spirit is blown in weather who has blown in and life begins from the Islamic perspective of around the 40 of the day of conception. So based on what I will disagree here, okay, so what did that so maybe I misunderstood you then go ahead. No, I agree with you that embryogenesis is completed by 40 days or 42 days. But the Hadith philosopher does not talk about the blowing of the soul into the fetus, therefore,
you know, the blowing of the soul. I have a little bit of a problem here with the blowing of the soul at 40. Because if we say that the blowing of the soul happens right after the model God, then we are sipping two important sort of phases here that are mentioned in surah meno and because it's worth it, you know, and it says for a lacuna, coil motivator environment and we made the lamp of this to lump of flesh into bonds. Then we made the bones into a cover to the
Owens was flesh, and they're after some Mantia. Now, Hong Kong. Thereafter, we made them into a new creation. So now, it is clear for it is clear from the evidence whether it's rational or scriptural evidence that everything happens in 30 days in terms of that the genesis of the fetus or the embryo Genesis, but the soul should be breathed into the fetus when it is accepting of it, carbon in my hand, the carbon basically ready to receive it. And that should happen later, after basically, the organs have developed enough for the body to be ready to receive the soul. Now, who's making that distinction? I don't know many people making that distinction. But you know it. Hi, just, it is okay
for me to do this patch work because I am not I am basically surrounded by Imams from both sides. Although this opinion may be a little bit interesting because I am separating between embryogenesis and the breathing of the soul into the fetus.
If we're saying that it is
dropped clot, chewed a lump of flesh all within 40 days, I will have a problem believing that the soul will be breezed right after this phase. There are two phases here that we did not count for, that are mentioned in the Quran. And then there is a lapse of time some mansion, an app. And that is when the soul gets breathed into the fetus. Okay, so you are then positing that the embryogenesis takes place after 40 days and the soul is breathing after 120 days. Is that what you're saying?
Yeah, yes, which will not be which will sound incoherent because then I cannot scripturally prove it because it is not.
If I am denying the Hadith of the apparent implication of the Hadith of the Latinum is rude. And I'm trying to reconcile the apparent implication of the hadith of Abdullah animus road with the Hadees zifa. Then if to be consistent, you know, where am I getting the 120 days from for the breathing of the soul. However, there is several Ramage masks that have been reported on the breathing of the soul at 120 days. That is it cognitive dissonance to say that I will separate between the two and accept the asthma that is not textually based.
You know, at this point, this is my what I'm inclined to doing, I would accept it, the mouth is not texturally based, because breathing the soul at 40 days, is not consistent with the soul coming into a body that is ready, when does the soul leave the body, if we look at the other end of life, soul leaves the body when the body is not accepting of it anymore, you know, because of disease because of trauma because of this or that, or because of the Divine Decree. But
we should apply this is the beginning as well. And I don't think that the body is ready to accept the soul so that we can move from simply sentient life in a sense, to human life. Because if we don't jump from vegetative life, to human life, I guess there is a phase in the middle. That's conception of life, which applies to the fetus, before we can say that human life starts. So this is actually very interesting. And you are complicating the plot now. Because as you're aware, this is a relatively unique position. Actually, I don't know of anybody else that has that I've heard I'm sure there are but as you're aware of most people are either the 40 or the 120. And now you're making a
very important distinction, which I find very intriguing. It's going to take a while for my mind to think through all the implications. But what this does imply is that your filthy positions then are going to be slightly modified from those who follow the position that the rule has learned at 40 days, versus those who've learned 120. Yeah, interesting. Okay. By the way, before I get to the filter issue, I'm genuinely curious. You are of course a medical doctor. Is there anything that happens around 120 days, that is different in terms of like the biological development of the child, maybe the consciousness or awareness somehow can be detected? Is there
Something that Danny Lyon in the car will be like as people who are outside of the medical discipline, we can feel a sense of, oh, Aha, I see that's the soul, we can see pre and post soul being blown in anything that can detect that somehow, many things in that neighborhood that happened that could indicate the beginning of human life, including voluntary movements, not reflexive movements. So many studies have shown that there are certain developments that take place during this time, most notably voluntary movements. And if you ask any pregnant woman, when did you did you start to feel movements, they will tell you the first month of pregnancy, see, so for me, as you
know, shahana are sort of similar. For me, that type of evidence is actually it's not, of course, contrary. But it's kind of like a state nurse, you can kind of like, get a little bit of, you know, a hope in that your position might have some basis to it. Because I'm actually really intrigued. It's the first time I've actually heard this position. And it's making a lot of sense to me personally, that we if we distinguish between the development of the embryo, which is clearly taking place where this is Andrea della Al is taking place at 40 days, versus the blowing of the rule, which I've always had a problem with, in the sense of the four hour, I'm not a medical doctor, but
still, the notion of the rule being blown. And at that early stage, it didn't settle with me for multiple reasons. But now you come with this interesting distinction. And I find myself very much drawn to it nonetheless. So based on that Shekinah, let's now get to the issue of terminating the pregnancy. With the caveat before we get to the nitty gritty and the harsh realities, with the caveat that there is pretty much a unanimous consensus or I don't, I don't like using the word that you might hear, because it's not quite, but there is the sense of that, whether it is a living or breathing, fetus or not, whether the row has been blown it or not, that there is an element of
sanctity to that fetus, and that we should not treat it as if it is a vegetable as if it is nothing. So even if the row has not been blown in there is generally feeling within our fuqaha a discouragement overall. And there is a sanctity of life that is brought in that this is going to be a living human being. So before we get to the issue of when is it Allah was when is it not allowed? I just wanted to put this out there that generally speaking our fuqaha In fact, I've read a number of fatawa that say that, that it is by Iijima not allowed to abort the fetus, even in the early stages for absolutely no reason. I know that there's not foolish, but I've read that scholars have
said this. So wanted to give that caveat out there. Now with that overall notion that we respect the sanctity of something that might become life. Now that you've given us this distinction, can you summarize for us your position, about ending pregnancy voluntarily?
Wherever Well, I think that there is a lot more strictness nowadays than used to be early on.
And even in the sort of the establishment
for establishment of Sunni Islam. I think this notion that there is agreement about the prohibition of abortion,
there is, as you said, there is agreement about the sanctity of the fetus to some extent, certainly, if someone causes abortion to a woman, that is a crime.
But is the woman or is the sort of the woman and her husband?
Do they have any right to terminating the pregnancy?
Then, you know, that we start by talking about the position of the form of the head in the authorized view within the form of
there is a disclaimer here that there is always disagreement within the form of about the rise of you sometimes. But, you know, oftentimes there is disagreement.
So, if we say that they all agreed about the prohibition of abortion after 120 days, because they all agree that the soul is breathed into the fetus at one time, what at 120 days, so it's natural for them, that it is a crime
to abort the fetus after 120 days. The exception here will be one, which is that
if the mother's life is in danger, then to preserve us or to preserve that the tree
with the sort of
What take priority over preserving the branch or this is how they express it. So the mother is the Aslan, the mother is basically the tree and then this branch, you cut off the branch to save the tree. If there is a sick branch, you cut off the branch to save the tree. So that our fuqaha do not accept any form of abortion after 120 days, except if it is
sort of if it basically poses a danger to the mother's life. Now, before 40 days,
the before 40 days, you will find when it comes to the authorized view and the different mazahub Now, because in every in all the mazahub there is in turn of this agreement before 40 days,
the hand bellies said that you can have abortion upon mutual agreement of the parents before 40 days and left me of the Maliki's, who are the strictest in this regard. Agreed was the ham bellies
to Hana fees ambitious in their authorized view, and you could always, you know how many more chefs out you're gonna look sad. Remember Khazaria rahamallah Certainly not well, in America, Saudi, you know, does not agree to any abortion at any time. And he you know, and the Hanafi is also has some of the canopies also they cite the example of by the harem, or the eggs of the game birds of the haram. And if the gamebirds of the Haram are sacred and you cannot kill them, you can to break the eggs of those sacred game birds of the horn. So the size of this example to say, if this is the beginning of human life, then it is sacred, because human life is sacred. But that the you know, the
established of you according to the letter Shaeffer is and Hannah fees, when they mentioned that this agreement to the internal disagreement was in their mouth have they still confirm that the established if you is that it is permissible in the Hanafi undershelf emails to have abortion all the way up to 120 days upon mutual agreement of the parents. Now, some of them because it sounds a little bit like too hard to accept. Some of them say that there must be a good cause. And we agree with them, there must be a good cause. But it is basically the mutual agreement of the parents that will determine if there is a good cause or not. The Hanafis are some of them, who as far as saying
that the paternal
sort of agreement is not required. It is the mother's decision, regardless of the Father's opinion. That's what some of the Hanafi said. So if we want to fairly anonymously presented the positions within the form of before we come to that contemporary discourse, and the sort of the automat of the modern times.
We will say that before 40 days, the majority agree to you know the permissibility of abortion before 40 days and that would be the authorized position within the Hanafi must have the authorized position within the shelter you must have Lakshmi of the Maliki's and the position of the humbly Meza between 40 to 120. That is still the authorized position that it is halal to have abortion upon mutual agreement of the parents in the Hanafi. And the shelter he must have, even though there is much disagreement internally within the two mothers. And then after 120 days, no one would agree. So the Maliki's would not approve of expulsion of the semen after it goes inside. Basically the womb
they do not agree with with any form of birth control that is beyond coitus interruptus, which everybody agrees with us or coitus interruptus, but they do not agree with even the expulsion of the serum. I'm sorry, of this semen
after intercourse, so that so that
What What's the sort of the classical discourses about nowadays, part of it is is warranted, you know, because nowadays with our developed understanding of embryogenesis, even though they had the same sorts of concerns before, because they would see the fetus coming out after 80 days, completely formed, like complete human being. So they have the same concerns. And, you know, I wrote something about this, and there is like, so much that they questioned, you know, so many of the scholars had questioned that. But anyway, nowadays, people have become stricter.
And they say that, you know, the madman, for instance of popular Islam, and the majority of Muslim scholars nowadays, they sort of accepted the humbly position that it is okay, in the first 14 days, only, because many of the scholars have accepted the fact that their soul gets sort of breathed into the fetus at 40 days, and because many of the scholars still believe that it is still a drop for 40 days, so it is okay, basically, to have abortion within the first 40 days, between 40 to 120 days, and they all presume that you have some cause, you know, for doing it, they all presume that you have a cause for it. But between 40 to 120 days, the cause must be a very valid cause a very
pressing cause, such as
rape. According to some of the Montana they consider this to be a valid cost to have abortion between 40 and 120 days, such as a deformity that is incompatible with sort of normal life, incompatible with sort of dignified life.
And when they talk about dignified life, you know, the scholars of manufactured Islamic, or the International Islamic, the Islamic folk assembly that belongs to the Muslim World League, they said that if his life will be bad, and cause of grief for himself and his parents, then it is allowable to terminate the pregnancy between 40 and 120 days, severe congenital diseases or deformities, and things of that nature.
And then they say that after 120 days, as we said before, it is never permissible, except if the mother's life is in danger. That is the modern discourse. I accept to this, despite the fact that this does not really reflect
the classical discourse, this classical discourse was more permissive than this when it comes to abortion. But I accepted the modern discourse because of our understanding of embryogenesis, and so on.
So this is what I believe in.
So chef and a number of points are raised here. Firstly, if I'm not mistaken, the Hanafi is didn't they not have the 120? They said as long as the features aren't formed, so they have a different caveat, right, but millimeter Halacha, Jr, or something of this nature. So wouldn't that bring it back?
Just to be pedantic, so that we don't miss the scrub to the honeybees?
Yes, but the majority of the honeybees do not necessarily make this condition. They talk about 120 days, the permissibility within the 120 days, without making these conditions, some of the canopies will make different dishes, some of the canopies are not accepted the whole thing. Some of the canopies are not accepted the permissibility of abortion to begin with, at any time. And this is also by the way, even to me his position, he is very strict on this regard as well that he does not view abortion so he's actually not following the May the mainstream humbly view in this regard. But the point being now, so a number of questions arise, you're kind of so we so therefore, what you
said was to reiterate, up until 40 days from conception, not from the last, you know, the period, but the actual conception up until 40 days, any type of reasonable excuse, let's say, and if you look at the lists given generally speaking, if if the lady says I'm too tired to take care of another child, or you know, I don't have help in the house, and this is going to be an issue for me or I have to drop the kids, I already have three kids etc. Generally speaking, if the fatawa that are there they seem to suggest within the 40 days
This would be permissible. However, if she or the the husband feels that we cannot afford the child, then it would never be allowed because obviously this is now a theological issue that you are infringing on the rights of Allah subhanaw taala and impeding the generosity of Allah with your misconception. So that is, you do. Would you agree with that summary? Schaffner for the first 40 days?
Yes, I would agree with that summary. But I would just wanted to add also to the Hanafi issue that when the Hanafi is talked about Melania to handla, they explained this to be the breathing of the soul, because even an Aberdeen says, and it is obvious that that, yeah, that Genesis happens before this, the HELOC happens before this time, but they meant the breathing of the soul. So even Mattamy, I found out that the Hanafi is mentioned that they disagreed over what this mean, whether it means the embryogenesis for the installment, personhood or whatever. Okay, valid point. Okay. And Solomon, but I agree with your sort of depiction of the sort of first 40 days, okay.
There is a good reason, that is not the fear of poverty, then it is permissive Jade, now, from 40 days to 120 days. You mentioned severe congenital to disease or a pregnancy that is really, outside of marriage that's going to be problematic from that regard. Are these the only reasons that you would allow? Or are there other mobile router reasons that would be permissible during this timeframe? Yeah, and the scholars who allow that for in the case of rape, they don't, didn't didn't, they did not talk about out of the wedlock. They talked about rape in particular, they did not talk about consensual sex. They talked about a woman who has been raped and now and the issue came up,
you know, during the time of the Bosnian war and things like like that. So it has a very special application here.
But congenital diseases like severe congenital diseases can cause severe deformities, and rape are the indications that are mentioned by the scholars in that window between 40 to 120 days, that is between 54 to 134 days, according to the doctors, a gestational age between 80 and 120 days from conception. So you would not add anything to that list? That's that's your restrictive list?
Yes. Okay. Again, I should I really have to ask these questions. I apologize to our viewers, if you this is it's a very awkward question. But I'm asking this because every chef knows we get bombarded with these questions. And it is awkward, but I've gotten my credit. These questions emailed to me as well. And I've always defer to authorities in this regard. When you say congenital disease, does that include? For example, Down syndrome? Does that include the quality of life being impaired? So to what level of difficulty would constitute a congenital disease?
Well, you know, in their force conference, the Islamic track assembly of the Muslim World League in their fourth conference, they said,
Kunal Hayato, who say attend lamina, alayhi, wa ala, where they, they he, so that it his life will be hard, and it will be a cause of grief for him and his parents? And can we just say that we should allow people a little bit of room here to,
to make that determination, and we should talk to them about, you know, severe issues that will cause we're not talking about the loss of one sense, we're not talking about the loss of one limb, how many blind people who have given enrich the life of their parents and humanity a lot more than their counterparts without disability, and how you know, so we're not talking about things of that nature, but we're talking about as severe mental handicap, we're talking about as service, severe physical handicap severe, that will make life you know,
difficult and a cause of grief for the person and their parents, that there will be some room for subjectivity. And for, for me, I
did leave that conditions that are associated with severe mental disability that may cause hardship and grief for the person AND, OR, AND or their parents or their parents. So I respect that decision. And I, there's just a part of me that really feels very uncomfortable leaving this open ended simply because there are plenty of
children born that might have slight impediments, mentally speaking, and yet the lives of the parents are enriched in ways they never expected. A child might have in Down syndrome or something of this nature. But Allah's blessings comes upon the family with love, and the child brings about an element of happiness and joy, even if it doesn't live day that he or she does not live till they're 50 or 60, or whatever. I would just say to the parents, that this is a human life. And definitely, if the congenital diseases such that there is no quality of life whatsoever, perhaps the fatwa is applicable. But if it's a gray area, I definitely hope to err on the side of caution and expect
Allah's rewards and blessings and shallow to other will be better for you in this world than the next. And I hope you agree with that generic statement? No, absolutely. You know, what, what makes me a bit more,
I guess audacious here is, is the fact that that I have seen that for the Hanafi sand Jaffa ism that would be represented like a very large sector of Muslims traditionally, and classically, things were a little bit more lenient in the past than they are nowadays. So
even if, if, if someone says, you know, and we just have to be honest here, like let's say if someone says it is based on mutual agreement of the two parents for
up until 120 days, I believe that they can find validation for this in the classical sources in to
easily, despite the disagreement within the butter I have, but they would not even need to go to unauthorized positions, they can find authorized positions into out of the form as yet, like I said, our understanding of embryogenesis are, you know, seeing on ultrasound, the baby inside the womb, makes it makes us more inclined to be in a little stricter than the traditional discourse or the class of this course. So, you know, were just limiting this to severe congenital diseases, deformities, that when basically across grief and
due to the child or to the parents, and just to underscore. So again, remember that the legend Dima and the image mal 50. And a number of major field councils around the globe have been quite strict and I would like to point this out that because of our knowledge of science, because of our knowledge of even I would say even because of the ease of life, the law of living that we have now that we find this this more strictness, and I agree with this that we should err on the side of caution when it comes to human life and Allah azza wa jal knows best. So the majority are filthy by and large, from 40 to 120. They say very, very extenuating circumstances, not just that, you know,
oh, life is going to be slightly difficult. So I, again, perhaps, you know, there's a slight difference here, but I'm more on the side of caution in this regard. And I fully understand where you're coming from as well. But this leads us to, and I just want to confirm that I am blind, Mr. Lawson has senses, loss of the limb or things of that nature they use would not qualify. Okay. Here congenital deformities. Okay, now let's get to and out past 120 And you said that and of course, this is what the standard d&d fatawa from classical and from modern times is that only if the life of the mother is in danger, can the fetus be aborted after 120 days? Okay, Frank question, given our
modern technological achievements and advancements Is there ever an actual either or situation nowadays?
Either or in what sense you have to choose between the pregnancy or the mother can we not?
So there are there are situations where you cannot extract the baby you cannot do this is Aryan.
You can extract the baby but you'll extract the baby too early to be viable.
So the earliest is Aryan is five months and something correct you, you correct me you're here? Yeah, no, we're talking about 120 days, like after 120 days, we're talking about four and a half months of gestation or like four and months of gestation and a few days, and that basically is
not a viable fetus. So if the if the pregnancy when the sort of pose danger to mom and that pregnancy has to be terminated after 120 days, you still don't have a viable feet no. So after when is the earliest cesarean generally speaking when can you do his his area and and save the baby?
You could do this as Aryan at any time, but you will not need to do as Aryan.
You know this early because the baby can be if you're talking about taking the baby out
a living child ability like when is the feet when
the aeration of pregnancy? Well, unlike what you know, what?
Like, what what is sort of traditionally known the shortest duration of pregnancy is not six months, it is rather about five months.
Because the shortest duration of pregnancy, to have a viable fetus is 2122 weeks, some baby was born in Miami a little bit less than that, you know, around 10 ounces of waiting a little bit less than 22 weeks. So we're talking about 20 weeks from conception. So we are talking about 140 days from conception, that is the earliest you can have a viable baby. But that's still extremely risky. So the baby may or may not survive.
Yet, you could you know, have the baby, you could have the delivery at that time and see if the baby would survive. So I guess that's what I'm asking for is that rather than just immediately jump to termination? Surely, if it's possible, we should advise the the couples out there in this situation that obviously, the first choice would be to see if they can save both lives only if it is an either or situation, then obviously the mother's life has priority. That's where I've tried to get that. Would you agree with that with that sentiment?
Yes, of course. Okay. So this now leads us to the issue again, and I had this question emailed to me, I think last year by a lady, by again, a couple that was facing the situation where the doctors said, and this was, I think, a month before, a month before the delivery date that the they had they went for their annual checkup or regular checkup, sorry. And they discovered that the child would basically whatever the deef, the the congenital deficiencies were, the child would be born and not be able to live at all like it would not be able to breathe on its own, etc, etc. And so the doctor basically said, it would be easier for you to terminate at that late stage, it's not a matter of
life and death, there's just a lot of pain, and you're gonna go through an entire delivery, and the child would not be able to live on its own anyway, it's not going to have any, even if it lives maximum just like a few hours or a day or something. And then that's it. So they were asking in this case, that is it allowed for us to abort, simply because it's going to save the mother the pain, the emotional pain as well. That was her main point like I'm literally going to carry a fetus or a child that I know is not going to survive the doctors of whatever it was. So you get the scenario here. What are your views on that type of very rare scenario, may Allah protect all of our viewers from
I mean, well, after 120 days, we will just have to wait until delivery.
Delivery can be induced earlier.
We're not talking about abortion here. We're talking about induction of delivery, then we can induce delivery as early as possible. But that is not abortion that is induction of the delivery. So I would be it would be okay to induce delivery early if that is what we know about the fetus, but not abortion because after 120 days, if the mother's life is not in danger, then
no abortion now of the fetus happened
All right, it is a case of fetal demise inside the uterus, then certainly the fetus will be brought out.
If the doctors have determined that the fetal had already expired in utero, then the fetus will, in this case,
need to come out. And we're not talking about induced delivery here. We're talking about extraction of the fetus. Okay. Okay. And we only have a few minutes or mashella, we spent so much time on this one topic, I guess we're gonna have to come back for round two. But two quick questions. And I don't know, are they quick or not? So let's see how quick we can do this. Obviously, it goes without saying pretty much everybody knows that. In Vitro Fertilization. Generally speaking, pretty much all the Jamia all the counselors have allowed this with the simple condition that obviously, the husband and the wife it is there, sperm in the of the husband and the, the embryo of the wife that is used,
even if the actual fertilization takes place outside of the body, as long as it is within the the marriage, the confines of the marriage. Now the question to you Shekinah is, nowadays it is getting possible to choose maybe even the gender of the child. And in fact, I'm pretty sure you're the medical expert, but within a few years or decades, you can do more than that gender, you can choose other things, you know, based on your based on the sample that you have in front of you. So to what level would the parents be allowed to make such decisions, given the caveat that it is between the husband and wife, it is the semen of the husband, and of course, the embryo that is being used? And
if the pregnancy is going to be taking place within the body of the we're not using a surrogate mother for this. So just in terms of choosing a little bit more specifying the type of child the gender of the child, what are your thoughts on this?
No, that's not short. That's not short. Okay. Yeah, but
but is it okay to wish for a specific gender? Yes, it is. Okay, as long as the does not involve content of the other gender, but it is okay for people who had three or four boys to want to have a girl, it is okay for people to add three or four girls to want to have a boy.
It's natural, it's a natural human tendency. So it is okay to make dua. It is okay to eat certain foods if someone recommended for you to eat certain foods. You know, there are some indications that it's possible for things that are high in potassium and sodium, for instance, that bring about you know, boy, and magnesium, magnesium and calcium girl.
And stuff like this or to use like some people may suggest to you and all of these things are not basically cut and dry. These are things that have some evidence. Some studies have suggested them, they have not been sort of mainstream than medical practice. But some study studies have suggested that certain types of food
help in that regard. Some said that version of douching whether you make the environment more alkaline, more acidic, some said that this may be harmful is certainly this, we're not talking about medicine here, we're not only talking about fapy issues, so anyone who needs medical advice they need to basically consult to their doctor.
So those measures that time of ovulation.
If you're like
man sperms don't survive that were like females firms.
And the closer you are to the time of ovulation, the more likely that you have a boy. And the farther away you like within two three days, you will have to have, you know, basically
intercourse within two three days before or after ovulation for conception to take place for fertilization to take place. So the closer you are to the time of ovulation, the more likely to have a boy
the people who do these things, it's okay for them. Given one one condition here is that it's not harmful. So, it is okay to make it or it is okay to to go about you know doing some of those measures or like techniques.
Now, in vitro fertilization, there is one case where in vitro fertilization, you know, in vitro fertilization and let us say, what are we talking about?
To hear people who needed to have IVF, because they cannot naturally conceive, and now that they had their IVF, they have the ability to choose the gender of the baby, there is no problem there, they needed to have IVF.
And they have their IVF. And now they have the ability to choose the gender of the baby, or they are given the option to choose the gender of the baby, if this is legal, and it's not there yet in all places. But if this is fine, this is legal, I guess, they can choose the gender of their baby.
The other scenario where it is quite obvious that they can choose the gender of the baby is that when there are certain congenital diseases that are gender specific. So if you are prone to certain congenital diseases, and those diseases are gender specific, and you wish to have a baby of the opposite gender that is not prone to this disease, then that would be also allowable. Now, the one issue that is controversial is, is whether people who can naturally conceive
may have IVF for the purpose of choosing the gender of their baby. And this would be like a technique called intracytoplasmic, sperm injection, to inject their rights firm
centrifugation of this firms will, you know, push out the means firms out to the peripheries because they're lighter. You examine this firms, you inject the particulars firm into the ovum, whether you want to the male or the females firm, the X or the y's firm, I should say, into the old one, and to have the agenda that you want. Now, this is controversial. The majority of the scholars for business, there are very honorable scholars like Chef Qaradawi and Sheikh Mohammed Rafi toss, man
who used to be the Dean of the College of Sharia and Lhasa or him Allah to Allah, the thermal camera for last man.
But some of the, you know, great scholars of our times allowed this, the majority forbade, and the for the majority forbade this not because we have sort of like
clear cut evidence from the Quran and Sunnah.
But because of many sort of factors that they consider
the natural equilibrium between the genders that, you know, let the theater is divinely decreed, and so on.
Certainly the scholars who allow that they said that no one can defy the Divine Decree, even if you do whatever you want. That's not in defiance of Divine Decree, because Divine Decree will come to pass anyway.
So it is a controversial issue. And for me, I don't believe that the evidence against it
is strong enough to say It's haram. I do say it isn't a clue.
But I am just like,
too uncomfortable saying that it's haram to choose the gender of the baby, by having IVF where you can naturally conceive and like it's actually fun. And the main point is that you're not doing so out of a negative feeling towards the other gender because we don't obviously our Shetty is very clear that we are not like, are we to be led to generally people who prefer boys over girls, we're not like that. Allah says no, hold on. Yeah. How will you manage it? Nothing? Well, yeah, who is the code? I'll use a woman to Coronavirus or Inasa. So like you said, as long as there is not that notion, the level of the headin to MIT to call it haram is very, perhaps very difficult in this
regard. Final point, you're gonna and again, I don't know how long this is going to take if it's going to take longer than we will have to ask you to come back next next week. But I wanted to finish up everything to do with at least the main questions, you have a pregnancy and whatnot. And that is that sometimes the issue is that the lady is not able to carry the child herself. And if she does have of course, the the the embryo she has the egg of course the husband has the sperm, but she's not able to carry the pregnancy. And of course in our times as you're aware that technology is there to have a surrogate mother, third party to carry the child up until delivery. And then of
course, the child
then given over to the original quote unquote parents, obviously we're all aware as far as I know, no Islamic scholarly committee no much my field clear has allowed this in our Sharia, as far as I'm aware of please correct me if I'm wrong, that having been said,
the question arises by many couples who are in this situation, that if Allah Allah azza wa jal has allowed foster mothers. And if there is a Hermia established simply by giving milk to the child five times or 10 times or however many times according to the MME, then our prayer, remember, viola, why couldn't we use that scenario? And basically allow this? I'm just asking you, why couldn't this be allowed that some folks would allow this and say, okay, just like there is a foster mother, let us now also consider the surrogate mother to be a mother and to have a hernia established that the child will be raised by the the original parents, what do you say to that and your comments on
Yeah, but the issue here is that there is a difference between the two scenarios, because when you breastfeed a child, you're not basically having the sperm of a foreign man into your body.
Versus the surrogate mother, the surrogate mother would have the sort of the product of conception, which is this, basically the sperm and ovum fertilized, go into her body or, you know,
get sort of planted into her womb, and
that that's a huge difference.
The sperm of the man should not be
for the products of that sort of fertilized
zygote should not be inserted into the womb of a foreign woman. And that's certainly, you know, made some of the scholars to question whether in the case of CO wives
sort of, there's there can be some
flexibility there. And this was raised as a question at the end of one of the meetings of the assembly
of the conservative though I see as far as I remember, but they came back the next year and the rule that out also completely,
but at least some of the scholars have the sort that if the problem here is having sperm ever man or you know, or the fertilized ovum
planted into the womb of a woman foreign to that man, what about if they weren't co wives, and, and so it didn't, you know, it did not survive that sort of
Proposition was not accepted and did not survive. So what is basically mainstream and accepted now and I don't know if anyone disagrees is that all forms of surrogacy because of this concern?
So the advice then to such couples is really not that Allah we have to accept Allah other and Allah will give them reward for their patients and obviously the door to adoption is always open. And as I have said many times this notion that adoption is haram, we need to remove it from our vocabulary. Adoption is 100% halal, what is haram is 70 which is something that nobody does anymore, you may take a child you may raise a child and you may love it as your own, you simply cannot call it your own, you cannot consider it biologically to be your own. But of course, it is of the highest good deeds to take an orphan or to take a child that does not have any
parents or has been abandoned in some place and you raise that child with love with care and you consider it like your own but you do not call it your own and your close family and friends know that this is a child that you have adopted adoption, the way that it exists in the West is completely halal. What is haram is a jehadi type of adoption that is called turbidity. And as I explained in previous lectures, we should not say ever that adoption is haram because it has raised a lot of misconceptions. So the advice therefore to this cup of tea, what do you what do you what do you agree to coordinate open adoption? I think that concept of open adoption may make it a little
bit. That's fine. My point though, is that Tabin knee as it existed in pre Islam is pretty much gone in the modern world. And nobody claims the child is biologically mine. They might even give the child the last name for legal purposes. But the notion of Devaney, which was the notion as you're aware
of claiming that a certain person basically shall be considered for all intents and purposes, I am taking this child, and I am considering this child to be my biological child. So that notion does not exist by and large in the Western culture, the claim that we love the child the same matter, the claim that, you know, it's going to be raised in a family, this is not quite the notion of graduates, if you give him all the, if you don't tell him about his lineage, you can see exactly my point, we make sure that the family and friends and the child knows of the lineage, right. So the knowledge has to be there, and you don't have to advertise everybody, somebody comes ahead, that
child is adopted, of course, but the close family and friends should know, and the child himself or herself, you know, as he grows up, and there's simple, you know, there you should read about the psychological realities of raising such a child is very simple that from the beginning, you know, the child should be told baby stories about where it came from, and it should already automatically just know, there are nice books that you know, instead of instead of the child, you know, coming like it's basically it's simple psychology. Yeah. So it's very easy to to have this done. My point is, as you're oversharing is that the average couple that is struggling, they have the notion that
it is haram to take another person's child and adopted sorry, an orphan child and raise it in their own household. And that notion needs to be gotten rid of in the minds of the Muslims. So that's why I'm a bit shocking or when I say we need to stop saying that adoption is haram. Adoption is halal, the way that is understood and then you give the caveat that the child should know who the parents are, and the close family and friends should know. Other than that, obviously, it is very rewarding to to do that. So she doesn't know we have come to the end of our q&a for pregnancy and termination of pregnancy, but we still have end of life issues. So in sha Allah, we have to continue this
conversation, maybe in two or three weeks. Inshallah, is that a good timeframe for that we'll come back and talk about and we talked at the beginning of life, okay, now we're going to jump to next session in sha Allah or whenever we get back when we talk about end of life scenarios and pulling the plug and those types of issues. So I'm going to ask you live on air basically that Insha Allah we agreed to come back soon and talk about those issues of end of life inshallah.
Inshallah, Allah has always a pleasure and honor to come and benefited from you. And I have to say that was the first time I heard from you this distinction of 40 to 120. And I'm very, very intrigued and it actually is making a lot of sense to me. So I will become your mocha lead in this regard. And I will always say our chefs Muhammad Hodge has this position and I will then give the fatwa based upon your verdict because it actually solves a lot of issues so Desikan will look out for that. And Sharla until next time, just have a look at us and I want to hear
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