The Lies About Palestinen – Dogma Disrupted

Salam Alaikum and welcome back to dogma disrupted. Palestine is reeling once again, today has been a bloody day for the people of Gaza. Over 1500 people have been killed, many of them children. And we are in a moment that feels like a familiar moment where Muslims are not even allowed to feel their pain with all of the media and how everything is being covered. So to help unpack what this means for us, and to help navigate the issues that are unfolding as they're unfolding very, very quickly, we've got two very special guests with us today. Dr. Omar Suleiman and Dr. Wimmer, Anjum, welcome both of you to the program.

Thank you.

Let's have a little bit of background. What's been going on recently? What's the situation currently

in control Atlanta, I'll start from now on handle sponsor martial law, and you also have your marijuana.

You know, over the past few weeks, in particular, the agitation the incursions on an ACC saw the settler violence and all that has been really increased, right. And then obviously,

you know, things exploded a few days ago with the attack that came from, as

you know, on the border of Azusa, and,

you know, the southern area of Israel. And as we start to see the occupation increasing and the agitation increasing and the catastrophe unfolding before our eyes, I think one of the things that we've noted this time, is that there is a finality that is sought, there is an open check that's been given to genocide as encountering a catalogue of war crimes. That seems to mean absolutely nothing to the powers that be. And you essentially have a population and the Palestinian people, obviously, Philistine is all occupied. But as I think many people forget, is 60% refugees, you know, I have family in Gaza, they didn't start out in Gaza, 60% refugees that fled from other territories

that were occupied by Israel, from the Palestinians. And this open air prison has been basically an experimental laboratory, where the most sophisticated weapons in the world are being used against the most desperate population in the world. Whether you speak in terms of population density, or you speak in terms of infrastructure, there is no place in the world like the USA, and for them to now be shut off from all directions to have their water supply shut off, to have their power shut off, to have their fuel shut off and to be bombed from every direction. There's absolutely no schism, that is recognizable to the people of what the pattern of these bombings are, you're guessing every

night, whether you should try to spend the night in your home, or you should try to go next door to your family's home, cousin's home or whatever it is.

Because you can't figure out where the bombing is going to be next. And now we have proof of the use of chemical weapons. So Human Rights Watch released just a few hours ago, that Israel has been using white phosphorus. And if any of you have ever seen children after a white phosphorus attack, it is absolutely horrific. The long term consequences, we know that it was used against the people of Syria. And this is not the first time it's been used against the people of Gaza, but to have it confirmed at this point, and to still not have a word being spoken by the American administration, or a word about Palestinian suffering in mainstream media has been particularly outrageous. And I

think that as we are witnessing this, you know, unfold before our eyes.

There's a sense of betrayal that I think the Muslim community is feeling. And that, you know, Palestinians are feeling in particular, because people are parroting

you know, the worst types of tropes about Muslims and the quote unquote, Arab savages that we've seen since 911, then the framing has been atrocious the erasure of the Palestinian voice, the erasure of Palestinian humanity, and you're seeing it from you know, your friends on social media, you're seeing it from your boss at work, you're seeing it from your company statements. You're seeing it in the NFL statement, you're seeing it in the NBA statement. So it's hitting you from every direction right now. And I think that

it's that much more important than for us. Those of us that have a voice and that means everybody on here

to use that voice to call out to ALLAH SubhanA, WA, tada and sincere, and to use that voice with whatever platform that you have whatever position that you have to uplift the Palestinian voice that is being rapidly silenced. One of the things that, that your comments reminds me of to highlight is that the status quo is so violent, that this is something that, you know, part of the framing of the deception, the framing is that this just happened out of nowhere. This happened on October 7, or started on October 7, that this just is some attack or offensive or you can't divorce it from the larger context of what has what has been going on, you know, that the everyday existence of

Palestinians in general, and people in Gaza specifically is so violent. And that violence is that every single Turning Point and every single opportunity erased

that to see all of this outpouring of sentiment. It's disgusting, and it's a slap in the face. And that's not to say that we don't have sympathy for victims, obviously, there's a certain common denominator of human life, you know, that is sacred and we respect but that how tone deaf is and how completely oblivious it is, to the larger context. It's it's quite maddening. It's quite maddening. I want to save some time on that, like on that point. It's really interesting that human rights languaging and framing is used to beat up on the Muslim community globally and domestically, constantly. But suddenly, when that human rights framework of apartheid and the legal threshold of

apartheid been reached, or structural violence and freedom of movement, and all these other things that

Institute's massive acts of crimes against humanity and violence against the people are ignored when it's no longer, you know, potent against the Muslim community, but instead it's against our oppressors. So it is absolutely enraging and infuriating. It's hard to take the West seriously on the values it purports to, to symbolize and advance. And we've had one of the things that I know Paul Williams has highlighted language that was just a year ago used to talk about Russia and how to cut off electricity and to cut off food and to cut off medical supplies constitutes war crimes. When it applies to Russia, it seems like that's a recognized fact. But then if someone does it against a

Muslim or against the Palestinian, then all of a sudden, it not only becomes okay. But it becomes justified as necessary violence to keep the brutes, the savages, the terrorists, whatever, however, they're being, you know, framed and maligned at the moment in order to keep them in line on their own land, or in their own homes. So that brings us to a point that I think is really, really essential, which is talking about media literacy in general. Right. I think that, you know, things have seemed to shifted. I think a lot of people do understand that there are strong biases in the media, especially younger people who are more on social media than traditional news outlets. But,

you know, there's a long long history and I know Dr. O'Meara and I were talking about this off camera there's a long long history to the the media machine and drumming up you know, hitting the war drums right beating the war drums and and this goes back quite far. So maybe Dr. Amer you can you can give us a little bit of a sense or a context. How much can we trust coming from the media in the first place?

Zach Miller had slow handleless last summer so we

we complain to Allah Subhana Allah, we don't complain of Alaska, Montana. That's first of all, the way of a believer and this truth is something that you find in Azusa

and in Philistine.

You see the courage

and faith in Gaza and the entire Ummah is put to shame.

So, even though it hurts my heart, to hear to see, and this is not new, this is 75 years of oppression, and state terrorism. 75 years of humiliation and vitriol.

But the more I have, as I've grown up thinking about this problem,

I have learned that Philistine is the beating heart of the ummah.

It is what keeps us as an ummah together and it breaks my heart that our people in Philistine I don't like to say Palestinians or Philistine either our people they

I happen to be in full of screen. Their houses were taken their Lives were destroyed.

And they are not the only ones. There are people in Kashmir people that are evil and Rohingya, and more and more people. But our people who are in Philistine they are guarding our sanctities they are guarding our holiest shrine, they are guarding the first Ibla they are guarding the place that is the most praised, most frequently praised in the Quran.

And so when they

show their courage,

you know, despite all of that when I talk to people from Azhar hear from people of Gaza, and especially as of course, but all of Philistine my Eman increases my not only Eman my knowledge of my faith increases I see miracles of ALLAH SubhanA data because Allah subhanaw taala centered in the Quran, a land that he knew Subhan Allah to Allah 1400 years ago, that will always remain the center. The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam spoke of if a Missoura

group that will be given aid by Allah subhanaw taala forever, in in some narrations that is a sham Syria, that is little map this and what is around it. And that's a miracle. The prophets that I sell them it is as if she is looking at what is happening now and he is giving us instruction. This is the thought if I'm on Surah this is where you're going to find face. If you want to understand Islam, this is you're going to how you're going to begin to understand Islam. And when I look at the Quran, and this is what Chef Amara and I wrote in the article that was published a couple years ago on Philistine

that if you look at the husband of better

if you look at how Rasulullah sallallahu alayhi salam who was Ramadan, the Lila mean when he took up arms, if you look at his reasons that are given in the Quran, those reasons apply 100% to the people of Philistine today. It is as if Allah has kept the brother alive among us. So that whenever we pick up the Quran and we want to know what is the Quran talking about?

You have an example this is what it means. Why because if you think about you know, what is Allah subhanaw taala say about Luna Ganesha around the Tridentine clunky dragon feet for some don't answer be the line of code from the one we're still haram. What is Corrado? i Li mean who asked about or and Allah. This was the justification of why ultimately later, but it took place. This is why Rasulullah sallallahu wasallam was sending

some additions to cut off caravans. But the reasons why Allah Sanatana from above having a sub seven heavens justifies and gives reason to why atheism and the poor Muslims were doing so what Allah says is that they asked you about the violation which had occurred which is the context of the idea of shahrul haram. And they say,

This is bad. Allah says yes, but

what you are doing

something unsavoury Rila. You're obstructing the path of Allah. You're obstructing, you're expelling people from the sacred mosque, preventing people from visiting us visiting it. And then across Lee Minho. Expelling people from their homes and Subhanallah you find that this motif of expelling people from their homes that appears again and again in the Quran, as it is as if it is one of the greatest sins that humans commit against each other and against the people of faith. Right. And what's interesting is that all of these four things are found in alpha last thing today, in the struggle of our brothers and sisters are people in philosophy.

So, to me,

hard and heartbreaking and heart wrenching as it is. They're also holding up

this

this symbol of Islam, they're holding up the courage of Islam, they are showing us the rest of the Ummah, you know, subhanAllah when the British and the French came and cut up the Muslim ummah into secular territorial nation states, with the intention of destroying us

Philistine

The left hurting. And it is for that reason that we cannot forget what they have done to us. It is as if they're,

they left an open wound that reminds us every day of what we can be and what we were and what we must be in order to gain our favor of Allah subhanaw taala again. So, I see this irony, you know, on the one hand, it is one of the most heartbreaking place. But on the other hand sort of seen is the only place in the Muslim world where you see faith beginning. Where do you see light? Where do you see courage, courage that stares down these monsters? Who who fabricate lies after lies? Right? Now I'll get to the question you asked of misinformation and disinformation.

Vietnam was alive. We know that now as historians.

The In fact, the atom bomb dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was based on a false premise. The Japanese wanted to surrender. We now know that because of declassification of documents.

The first Gulf War was a lie.

Children were being taken from incubators and being killed. And that's why we needed to go Americans right needed to go and kill Iraqis.

Second Gulf War was alive. They were no weapons of mass destruction. What was happening in Afghanistan was a lie. Despite all of that, right, we are used to and Allah subhanaw taala tells us when Jacqueline fasci can be nothing Butterbean when a wicked person comes to you.

You do not believe what they're saying. You have to investigate, you have to take that in your own hands. What if this wicked person, this wicked institution has lied to you and to the rest of the poor and the oppressed in the world for a century.

And then now it tells you that 40 babies were spearheaded and the President gets up and says he saw the videos of 40 babies being beheaded. Imagine the level of fabrication and lying when a president of a country puts his credibility on the line for the false propaganda from the tabloids that he is getting

imagine the level of lying the imagine the level of wickedness.

Right.

But

we are being told

that you have to believe

this and forget the 75 years of international community.

Again, and again, hundreds of United Nations resolutions that are ineffective, all vetoed.

We have to over overlook all of that, in order to believe the new lies that we are being told. But I see them not through through the eye of rage, even though it is outrageous. But I see that as a sign of faith as a truth. Because the same tactics were being used against the prophets of Allah who and he was salam. Then if Allah subhanaw taala, who loves his prophet

more than anything else, and anyone else is honored his prophet and allow this process to suffer, then we have to say that people are Philistine who are the people who have to put up with these lies.

But they through this, they are being honored by Allah subhanaw taala they are. So I pray for them.

I find them to be a treasure trove of instruction, of inspiration.

And lessons, you know, when I read the Quran, I want to know, where is this happening? Where is this struggle? And I find that in people have seen and people seem

to hoard structure. Dr. Omar, I think there's just to add to some of the context that you were providing when it comes to the reasons to not believe the outlandish claims the media and the outlandish framing of the media, in addition to its track record, right, and the conflict of interest that is fundamental to the war machine and the military industrial complex and the lobbyists and everything that's going on. We have a record of dehumanization of Palestinians and Muslims in the area.

Right. I mean, literally on record, we have Netanyahu we have other people saying, right from their mouths, like video evidence, audio evidence that they're going to do this and that and this is their tactic. We have it, you know, very clear evidence that they refer to killing Palestinians is mowing the lawn? Right? We have animals and animals. Yes, we have just the other day one of the one of the ministers calling or fighting human animals like this is all on record and all for they admit it. They admit it, there's no there's no doctored evidence. There's no sort of deep fakes videos or, or Photoshopped images, this is something that they freely admit. And so how could you possibly trust

the word that comes out of these people's mouths? When it comes to the scope of things when it comes to the order of things, the magnitude of things, what's going on? At the very least, everybody has to be cautious. And take everything with 17 tablespoons of salt, not just a grain of salt, a whole salt shaker. Right. And, and be vigilant and understand that it's all about how you're framing things. Even the Israeli pets are granted more humanity and mercy and care than the Palestinian human beings that are living in their own homes and getting bombed and starved Imams, I want you to you know, Dr. Wayman, may Allah reward you for those words, very powerful words.

You know, they're talking about our grandparents are talking about our parents. They're talking about our brothers and sisters they're talking about, you know, I think there's an imam in the United States. And I want you to think about the compounded cruelty of this, there was an imam that we know in the United States, who lost 15 members of his family in one night.

But he does not, he does not want to go public yet because of the repercussions to him. And his immigration status, or whatever it may be things coming against him. Like think about the compounded cruelty of this machine of propaganda, playing on the tropes of Arab savages, Muslim savages, beheading babies, and, you know, rape and all types of things. Let's agree that the killing of children is evil. Let's agree that rape is evil. Okay, why are you turning a blind eye to Palestinian children being pulled out of the rubble in pieces? Why are you turning a blind eye to all of the standards that you just iterated? A few months ago, you know, it's interesting, it's

about the double standards of Russia. I was looking at this tweet by Ursula von der Leyen, who is, of course, the president of the EU. And this is from October 19 2022, we're literally just a year removed. And she says Russia's attacks against civilian infrastructure, especially electricity are war crimes, cutting off men, women, children of water, electricity and heating, with winter coming. These are acts of pure terror, and we have to call it as such, if you just literally replace Russia with Israel, you will be branded an anti Semite and you will be shut out of your company, possibly lose your job possibly be kicked out of your university, you will be attacked, you know, by all

sorts of shady Zionist watch lists, you will be called all sorts of names. And so the double standards are not coming out of nowhere. I mean, it is clearly building upon a fabrication of Islam, a fabrication of the Muslim that set the pretext for the murder of hundreds of 1000s of people in Iraq, like Dr. Hamer said, American propaganda is Israeli propaganda, Israeli propaganda is American propaganda. This is exactly how the process of dehumanization works. That's why you can't name a single victim of the Iraq war if you're in the United States, because those top stories have been kept far away from you. And so, when people try to put you and I'm saying this, especially to the

viewers here, because you're getting pressure from your friend circles, you're getting pressure from your local media, when people try to put you on the backfoot

do not let them do not let them make you forget the past 75 years are the current days in which their hypocrisy is showing itself clearer and clearer and clearer every single day. You know, these reductionist talking points that remove us from an entire history of colonialism and occupation and apartheid. And so with Dr. Amer said about the, you know, subhanAllah the present inspiration, the example the people of Palestine, refuse to go away. They refuse to go away.

They are the most resilient people, our brothers and sisters in philosophy and the most resilient people on Earth. The people who visit in particular, they are the most resilient people on Earth. These people dare to go to

Ajit in the rubble, you can still see them calling the dawn on a message that was destroyed last night. Imagine going to federate, and you woke up and all nine of your family members are dead. And you still walk to salata budget these people as once this is all over in sha Allah Tada soon. And we hope for a complete removal of the blockade and freedom from occupation. But if it were to return the way that it usually does, after these, these massacres take place, you know what they're going to do, they're still going to get married, they're still going to have their weddings, they're still going to have their opee because they're still going to pursue their education, they're still going

to memorize the Quran, they still find a way to live, what type of a people can deal with that trauma and still move forward. They are a miracle from Allah subhanaw taala These are special people. And these, you know, I was looking at the video of, and it's been it's been really hard to watch these videos, but like I said, it's harder to be in these videos than to watch these videos, right. I mean, imagine the people that are living this day and night, you know, the Father and the Son. Just this video today a father and a son that are in the stretchers next to each other, and the son with whatever chemicals or whatever, whatever has been done to his face is comforting his father

telling his father You know, don't don't worry, you know, don't cry, we're gonna we're gonna make it through this Baba Don't cry anymore. I thought to myself, subhanAllah what are people? What people, that's an honorable lie to be to be on their side, we pray that Allah subhanaw taala gather us with them. Because if the majority of the people of Jana are most often and for Cara, imagine these people and their rank with Allah subhanaw taala. So it's an honor for us, it's to actually be their advocates within diaton in the belly of the beast, so to speak, even while we're being suffocated by the propaganda at every political and social level.

That's a great point. And I think that's something on a lot of people's minds how to respond like you mentioned the fact we are always forced to assume the position of condemnation and denunciation. And that is a deliberate tactic to keep us from pointing out the brutality and the inhumanity of the occupation.

I'm sure everybody across North America or in other places, especially, you know, places in your might even have it more difficult with less freedom to say what needs to be said? How, if you're, if you're someone who is put in a position to explain it to your coworker, explain it to your boss, or explain it to your professor, explain it to, you know, even local news. How should this thing be framed? What should How should people? How should people talk about it? What's the language that we should use? What's the language that we're forced to use that that actually is a cage?

Dr. whim? Yeah, you know, the panela, what I find is that

if we are willing to talk, which is a hard thing to do, because there's this barrage of propaganda and assumptions and our own fears, but if you're willing to talk talking about Philistine is the easiest thing in the world to do. Give an example, like you're living in your house, somebody else comes and shows you a mythology, a document, write a fake document, and nobody in the world today accepts, right if you go to the city, nobody accepts that, you know, this document that you made up that you know, a 2000 years ago, somebody promised you this land, you say okay, get out of here, right? You can call the police on them, that would be the end of it. But that's not the world we

live in. We live this when this happened. We live in a world colonized. Where there were deliberate and

genocides being committed by the British and the French empires, French in Algeria and elsewhere, right, the British in India, and South Asia and the Middle East. The Belgians in Congo, I mean, just this was the world in which

the Jews

were on the receiving end of this. For nearly 2000 years, Jews experienced European hospitality.

Right. And our heart goes out to that this was persecution.

And outside of the Islamic world, the Jews did not find thriving and flourishing and prosperity anywhere else.

That was the only place so now

when

Europe dumps its own sins, its own guilt and its own hatred. It wasn't just guilt. It was also an attempt to just get rid

rid of the Jews because anti semitism was still quite rampant as it is until today in Europe, so Balfour declaration, if you look at the politics around it, there is anti semitism, it's just get rid of the Jews. And also the assumption that the Jews are pulling the strings in Russia, which was the reason Balfour Declaration was passed.

Give them this piece of land,

land without people for people without land. That was that's the fiction. Today, if I tell an eighth, eighth grader, a ninth grader that this is what was said.

They'd be like, that's insane.

Right, they'd say, so this is not much of an argument that you don't have to save. If somebody comes to your home and then and says, you know, get out of here, I'm going to put you in a barn barn and in the garage, and you cannot go to the bathroom.

If I kill your baby,

you got to sit and watch that. And make sure you my generation will oppress your generation, my children. My next generation will oppress your children, my grandchildren,

will make sure that the lives of your grandchildren are like hell, that's the deal that's been given to Palestinians.

And you ask anybody in the world,

especially ask the people who's before starting their meetings, they say, Oh, we are. We're standing in stolen land, landing in Canada in the United States.

Really? You feel guilty about that?

Right, you're acknowledging this now right? Learn it now means. So 200 years from now, this is what they want to do, but they will not. I swear to Allah, they will not. They will be very different story. But this is what they want to do the Palestinians. They want 200 years from now, to stay. Yes, we came. And we massacred and we murdered. We terrorized generations after generations. Right. We sorry about that. But we're standing on that land. That's what they want to stay. But they will not say that. I can guarantee sure is anything.

Ma'am, Tom, I would just add to the Dr. Wimmer is talking about sort of the legacy of colonialism and you can't talk about this ethno fascist state and the ideology of Zionism without knowing anything about colonialism, right. But I think you can pull into pull from more recent history to sort of build, build on, you know, the fact that first and foremost, when you're talking to your colleagues, look, you really don't know what you're talking about. Sure, you're being fed some very reductionist points, and a very, very skewed narrative. One of the things that the Quran and the Sunnah do frequently

is the prophets lie, some tells you to put yourself in the place of someone else. That's very effective, prophetic communication. Right? Would you like this for yourself?

Right. And so when I tell the story of my own parents, and I, you know, I'm my parents were born in Palestine. My dad always makes the joke, may Allah subhana, Allah preserve him. But as like, I'm five years older than Israel. I was born in 1943. And no one gonna tell me I was born in Israel.

Right, that was born in Palestine.

I'm older than the state of Israel. My parents met in Houston. I've never been allowed back in the Philistine. I find out from

you know, distant relatives that, hey, you know, settlers just walked into this new piece of your land, because I actually have land assigned to me somewhere in the West Bank right now. Right, that's in my name that I can't access. And oh, by the way, they just cut out this much, by the way, the wall just cut into this part of the land. And some folks from Long Island, right, are now living there. How ironic on the basis of what so the the land theft, structural violence, and apartheid. Apartheid is a word there is there's a reason why that word is So, you know, vehemently rejected by Western powers. Because America stood against the freedom fighters of South Africa, America was the

last leg of apartheid against the South Africans, and it's doing the same thing to the Palestinians. Now as I was looking at, so I was showing you this this book, old book, Palestine peace, not apartheid, by

Jimmy Carter, who is of course, a US president, and this book was written in 2006. So just read this paragraph, a system of apartheid, with two peoples occupying the same land but completely separated from each other with Israelis today, totally dominant and suppressing violence by depriving Palestinians of their basic human rights. This is the policy now being followed. Although many citizens of Israel derived the racist connotation of prescribing permanent second class status for the Palestinians, as one prominent Israeli said, I am afraid that we are moving toward a government like that of South Africa, with a dual Society of Jewish rulers and Arab subjects with few rights of

citizenship. The West Bank is not worth it. And unacceptable modification of this choice now being proposed is the taking of substantial portions of the occupied territory, with the remaining Palestinians completely surrounded by walls, fences and Israeli checkpoints, living as prisoners within the small portion of land theft to them. 2006, right, almost two decades ago. And if you look at a map, and you see the expanding land theft, right, this is a US president speaking, right. This is not some radical leftist, although he's been cast aside by,

you know, by presidents that followed as such. But this is a US president, right, a diplomat in the full sense of the word talking about what he saw, with his tour, right back then. And then you talk about these last few years, and what has taken place, you want to know why you're not seeing the Palestinian narrative, because the Israeli government could shoot dead a Palestinian American journalist could bomb, the AP building, the Associated Press building could vomit to smithereens and not have to pay the price at all still be shielded from accountability by the American government. The Associated Press is out there still spewing Israeli propaganda even after after they flattened

their building. So what chance do the indigenous people of Palestine? And we should use those words to because they're weaponized against us? What chance to the indigenous people of Palestine have, without any of the tools of media to share their narrative, when they have the entire weight of Western propaganda working against them, and they still have to fabricate news against us, they still have to fabricate. This is somehow the irony of it all. You've done all of this, and you still have to fabricate. So when you're speaking to your colleagues, when you're speaking to people

at work, and you know, and look, it takes a bit of tolerance from us. I mean, this is

this is one of the hard things that also comes with being from the home of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam is, look, we spare no dirt.

When it comes to making you're against the oppressors, this is our sin and hamdulillah our prophets lie some teaches us exactly how to pray against an oppressor. Well, when someone's ignorant, you gotta have a little bit more hidden for that person a little bit more for forbearance for that person's ignorance, and try to walk them out of that ignorance. And sometimes I think, and I speak for myself, by the way, that that I found myself in conversations where I'm going off on a person and I have to kind of pull back and say, You know what? A llama for the homie phenomenal Yattaman you just don't know any better. Let me let's let's walk this back. If you are in this position,

someone walked into your home and threw you out of it then relegated you to a tiny piece of land. took away your citizenship status restricted, every part of your movement choked you off from the rest of the world. What do you do? And people forget. And I want to mention this because we need to educate our audience. Read, write, read, but people forget the people of Gaza in particular, tried to protest in a non violent way. They marched for an entire year on the apartheid wall and the great return March. And what happens? Read about azana job, Rahim Allah, may Allah accept her as a Shahida that young Palestinian medic that was out there trying to nurse the wounds of people that were being

hit by Israeli snap snipers. What happened to Ibrahim Abu Surya, one of the most inspiring people so hello and I think of a man from Allah Jana, I think of Ibrahim Abu Freja. May Allah Subhana Allah accept him as such. Imagine this guy was bombed in the previous bombing of 2014 lost all of his limbs and was showing up to the great march in his wheelchair, holding with whatever was left of his limbs, a Palestinian flag, and he was killed by an Israeli sniper. What threat did he post he was shot dead by an Israeli sniper, Rachel Corrie. The irony of the American public is that when American non Muslim Muslims of conscience have gone over there and have been killed

Should you know what I thought was not a Muslim? Right? She's a Palestinian American journalist, fine, Rachel Corrie.

What did she do? What was her crime? What was her crime? This isn't the young fattest Buddha, standing in front of a tank holding the rock, that iconic image of Palestinians, this was a white American woman, I believe she was 22 years old, or 23 years old, young, white American woman that went over there as a peace activist, and was run over by an Israeli bulldozer on purpose.

Full evidence there. This wasn't an AI generated image, like the one that Ben Shapiro puts up. Right? This was a real image. And what did we do? Absolutely nothing. You know, so when you talk about the Palestinian people, and what they have endured, no people in the world would endure what the Palestinian people have endured. And simply, you know, say that, you know, we just need to wrap this up and just move on with our lives.

That's a lot of powerful commentary. I want to pull out just in distilled just three things from from what you said, because I think they they bear reiterating and for the audience, keeping them in mind, especially if you're young, if you're on in these conversations, if you're on a college campus. The one thing is to bring people back to accountability. Right, what you said about, you know, the AP press building, you know, the amount of aid military aid that Israel gets every single day. And there's it's literally a blank check, absolutely no accountability, they can do anything. There's nothing they can't do that will get that checked to be even lessened, let alone scrapped.

Right now, just from any rational person, you can think what you want about this side, that side or whatever, whatever you're leading us is telling me that that's a rational position to take. Tell me how long a nation can adopt that as a policy that they have an ally somewhere that can do absolutely anything they want, with no strings attached, no accountability, no responsibility to act in any certain way. The second thing that you said, is as like two and three, for people on the left, there's a cynical irony at play, that the values that the left bases, its takes pride in are being violated again and again and again, right in front of your face. You want to stand in front of a

classroom and give a land acknowledgement the lands being snapped snagged right now. The land is being grabbed right now the land grab did not end.

We can have a conversation about how the land grab is not even over in the West. But it's certainly it's ongoing right now you want to you have white guilt, for example. However many years removed, there's something happening, the exact same thing is happening right now. And Palestine. So where are your morals? Right? You want to pride yourself on the civil rights movement, and the ending of segregation that's happening right now, in Palestine. So for those are things that I think are really powerful for people to emphasize that when they're talking to other people, just be consistent for the love of God. Right? Just like if you claim to stand for something, either just

admit that you're okay, I shouldn't, I should not use insulting language. But be consistent, show that you have a spine, right, and try to think for yourself.

The last part, I think, is an interesting segue, the last thing that you said, because it brings us to another issue, there's a lot of dead ends that are sort of proposed to us when it comes to either quote, unquote, ways out of the quote unquote, conflict or different sort of rhetoric that's deployed, to take the conversate, to deflect to take the conversation away from these sorts of things, such as the idea of normalization, such as the idea of, or a two state solution, or this solution or that solution. You know, how do we how do we respond to those sorts of things? What are some thoughts that we have about that?

lecture room.

I wanted to mention something slightly different. So if you want to take that one. Sure, sure.

I think you know, one of the most significant points in ARM Tom, like in this in this discussion to me, is,

in all of these discussions, the Palestinian voice itself, the Palestinians themselves are sidelined. So you have the Abraham Accords, which were shameful and those that are in a position. I mean, I wrote an article Why I oppose the Abraham Accords,

you know, about a year ago,

and I still oppose the Abraham Accords, I think, as atrocious as they've ever been. And I had like, well meaning people that reached out and said, you know, why shouldn't shouldn't you be for this? Like, isn't this good that people come together?

Uh, you know, isn't this good that we that finally, you know, we end the hostilities? And I said, No, you know, I'm pretty sure Ibrahim is Abraham was in for arms deals and apartheid, which is all this right. And so it's an apartheid state gets a pass on its apartheid, for military contracts and other sweet benefits to neighboring Arab countries, like when was Israel at war with this country and that country in that country in the first place? Right? Y'all never been at war, right? Who gets to make peace on behalf of the Palestinians. So the Palestinians get moved to the side? And now what are you seeing in the media in the headlines? Israel, Hamas, Israel, Hamas, Israel, Hamas, where in

the world are the Palestinians, the 7 million people? Do they not get get any type of voice for themselves? Right. So whether you're talking about peace or war, the Palestinians are omitted themselves. And this is a deep hypocrisy, once again, exposing the double standard in the discourse. And I think that Palestinian society has called for the BDS movement for boycotting, divesting sanctioning, that has global implications that has domestic implications. It is a principled stance, it is one that, again, the thrust of the political establishment, and Allah knows best all these new surveillance bills and other types of legislation they're trying to put out in these and you know,

and Russia in these few days that resembles the Patriot Act nonsense that came out after 911. And then what becomes, you know, an entire apparatus under, in the name of countering violent extremism, Allah knows best, but you already have anti BDS laws on so many states books.

When Muslims boycott, and when people have conscious boycott brands, divest from companies that deal in apartheid, that deal and occupation, we send a powerful message and that takes a level of sacrifice on a personal level, that takes a level of sacrifice on a community level. And we should not apologize for that. And and this, the South African freedom fighters that fought apartheid, there are the same ones that called what Israel has done to the Palestinians, from Mandela to to onwards, apartheid. And this is this is a concrete strategy that we can implement on a personal level as a community, right, and as people of consciousness that, that want to demonstrate a viable

way to, you know, to be in solidarity with Palestinian society. Now, with that being said, Look, you have your app, where people have Do we believe in our Do we believe in Allah subhanaw taala? We never despair. And

so first and foremost, at the top of at the top of all of this, when people talk about art, what's a course of action? Of course, there are no like, first and foremost, do out like, exert yourself. And you're like, have you really exerted yourself and do make do out for your brothers and sisters, not a single parent is going to go unheard bitten and Aitana. And there is no such thing as a pointless supplication. So exert yourself and

donate to these to these causes, you know, people have been asking about who's on the ground. I know beta, has has some positioning their Islamic Relief due to their prior infrastructure, especially in the West Bank, they have some ways in Charlottetown there's pious projects out of Chicago, you know, do your homework out some some people here probably not even the United States and support these organizations in sha Allah Tada. If it seems to check out with the right intention in the night I raise your voice

in whatever way that you can. If you lose something as a result of raising your voice for the Palestinians for the sake of Allah subhanaw taala then that will be a means of your elevation this life and the next inshallah Tada, it's worth the sacrifice make the sacrifice, we need to do it more than ever now. And let's, let's move away from this normalization nonsense. Right? This has been to the great detriment of the Palestinian people. It has been a disservice, it has been a betrayal of the Palestinian people, and a betrayal of their cause. You know, there's one thing Subhanallah that could always unite the hearts of the believers around the world and it was Palestinian outside and

there's been a cyst systematic attempt to remove that, that consciousness from the OMA and then hamdulillah it hasn't worked hamdulillah we're seeing right now it does not work. There's something that Allah subhanaw taala has put in the heart of every believer This is a matter of Appi that this is

this is rp that you're not going to remove it OXA from the hearts of Anyone that believes in it, not Allah Muhammad Rasul Allah. So we should reject normalization efforts. We should reject all attempts that that try to and and this was part of the reason why Dr. Wayman and I wrote this paper

They tried to who they be at everything, right? Like, wait, wait, wait, calm, calm down. You know, the people themselves are not at the table. So how can they? How can they consent to this? So, listen to the people themselves, we uplift the people themselves. And by the way, this isn't just true for the Palestinians and I'll kind of end on this this is true for the Syrians. This is true for the Oilers. This is true for the people of Kashmir, this is true for the people of India, and so on so forth, right? We follow their lead when they are the oppressed people, and we see how we can help them inshallah to Ana, to alleviate their oppression. And Bismillah he Tanna, we stay the

course look this is going to be a long, this is going to be this we're in this for the long haul. This is you know, there are people who have lived through this trauma now for seven decades. My father, right I guess at this started when he was five, you know Subhanallah so his whole life. He's known occupation. He's known displacement, he's known that rhetoric and destructive discourse his entire life. We need a little bit more steadfastness Inshallah, tada, we need to be steadfast with this cause we need to nurture the love of Philistine and lovable Aqsa in our kids hearts. Because you know what, there are a lot of people that see Aqsa as a burden. There are a lot of people that

see the Palestinian cause as a burden, you know, it's going to stunt certain mobility, in, in politics, certain mobility in my career. And so follow steam becomes a burden. So be it, you you, you need to take this on because they are a people who Allah Subhana Allah to Allah has entrusted you with in this moment right now, their cause is your cause and sha Allah to Allah, do not forsake them, Do not turn your back on them. And we need to make sure that the next generation takes that as well. Yeah, we're not we're not going anywhere, and we're not quitting. Definitely. Dr. Lim, are you you are patient? Some final thoughts for you? From you? Yeah, no, exactly. Like it I was hearing

every word and and then enjoying and celebrating because it's exactly what I would have said. But I want to say, Inshallah, all the same things, but in a different register, I want to talk to Muslims, I think it's really, really important that we talk to non Muslim friends, and many, many good people will immediately see the justice. In fact, I see Palestine as like, really a heart moral heartbeat for the world, because it's so clear what's right and what's wrong. And it's so easy for people around the world. I mean, you can be some of the best support that you get some of the most enthusiastic are from the people who have

you know, we're Latin Americans, or, or, you know, an African activist and around the world, people see this and their heart breaks. Right? That's why people who are part of the quote unquote, third world people who have been colonized.

So you see, and you say, Wow, there is goodness, there is goodness in human fitrah human beings, humanity can be redeemed because these people actually, despite the propaganda, despite the fact they don't get anything out of supporting Palestine, and they will get everything out of supporting this apartheid state, but they stand up, right? These are Christians, these are non religious people, these are people but they have a heart. And so that's, you know, I, I think that's a that's a beautiful thing that reminded me of a teaching in my Deen in my religion, which is fitrah, that Allah subhanaw taala has given an inoculation for good that is, you cannot take it away. And in the

conditions when you have lies in media media, and a fabrication and double speak and Orwellian world where people cannot do that, right.

You, you have to break those idols. And I think that's possible that's possible in America as possible in many countries in the world. But I want to speak in the other register, the register of Mrs. Hall and I talk to Muslims and talk to her young generation is really important. And that was a key point I wanted to make in that article was shift or shift from that.

Palestine is an Islamic issue.

It does not mean that it's not about justice. But it is equally and steeply is an issue of our aqidah.

And it is not a nationalist issue, right. We don't we don't make those claims merely on the basis of some kind of territorial system that you know, you cannot steal people's land.

And

we say that because it is, it is a sign of the truth of Islam truth of Allah subhanaw taala that you find those prophecies coming true.

And I say to a young generation and to the Imams today, and the leaders and preachers and influencers to the heart, educate yourself and teach this stuff. Because you will learn the Quran you will learn the cinema you learn the truth about the world.

That's number one.

Also, speaking of Abraham, of course, and normalization, you know, subhanAllah I was thinking the other day the Hadith in which the prophets of salaam says that they will be taught if I'm on surah in aided group, left group

and let you know a phrase and it says lie a book room, manhood Allah, woman, Carla found this really interesting, you know, if you see the phrasing Rasulullah sallallahu, that they will not be harmed by those. It doesn't talk about the enemy first, those who are doing the killing and oppression and opposition. But those who are betraying them are mentioned first men how they love those who will betray them will not harm them. It is as if Allah rasool Allah Azza wa sallam, in his words inspired worse is taking into account

Abraham, of course, and normalization, and people who are saying, right, who do not mention sort of saying there is only one country in the world, as you know, in the Muslim world, that has not come out, mentioning sort of thing. As far as I know, there's only one country that calls itself Muslim, that has not done that. And in fact, going the opposite side, and this is one of the most beautiful things about this heartbreaking incidents that are taking place. That despite the fact that many Muslim rulers want to jump over and normalized, they knew that there are certain limits, they could not cross with their populations, no matter how oppressed they are. People are they're not going to

let them cross that line. Only one country has crossed that line and still support it. And had not Israel and has not mentioned Philistine. So to me, this is like Subhanallah it is. It is fun. It's, you know, it's a miracle because i i mean i Atilla Xhosa that the words of the Prophet SAW Salem resonate in our daily life. So well.

I want to say that talking about Phil's theme, is part of our DNA. It's something you get charged for. It's not a waste, it's not wasted time, as the normalizer or their supporters might say.

It is talked about it is to talk about the Quran, it is to talk about the Sunnah it is to talk about our history. It's talking about the Sakuma, it's to be what the sources said that Muslims the believers are one body when one part hurts,

the entire body responds by staying up at night and responding with fever. So if you have a Palestine fever, you have a Philistine fever or Kashmir fever or even a fever, then Glad Tidings to you that you are a believer. And if you are saying sitting in your chair and saying Palestine is not our burden,

you got to chat yourself. Because somehow you don't figure in the equation. But let me bring Muslimeen, Felisa minim as, as the Hadith at with Salam, whoever doesn't care about the affairs of Muslims is not one of them.

It's a truth even though it's attribution to the Prophet SAW Selim is considered weak. So talk about Philistine

and to reiterate what Jeff hammer said to make dua but remember, dua is an action plan for a believer. Dua is an action plan for a believer when you get up in the morning and Nick dot O Allah, give me piety give me righteousness, right? Save me from deceiving others save me from being deceived. It's also an action plan, I'm going to do something about it.

So when you make dua, first of all, you have to make dua and we do not making enough to I do not make enough dua, despite the fact that I do and Hamdulillah I did not make enough to we have to put it also has to be an action plan. So we have to talk about Philistine you have to talk about philosophy and from the perspective that we are talking about, which is you have to know, you know, the oppression you have to know the regulations, the international law, right, the international law that's being violated, we have to tell our children, but we also have to tell them

But the law of Allah subhanaw taala, that has been violated. And we have to tell them about the promises of Allah that are being kept. And to talk about the ayat that mentioned these struggles, and I will end with this incident between Musa alayhis salam and for our own, that has always been with me as, as so current. So Musa alayhis salam,

as we all know, the Quran speaks of how

he is from Vanessa alle, who are the believers in the Muslims of the time. They are being oppressed in Egypt. Musa Ali Salam is from among them but raised in Pharaoh's palace. He grows up accidentally kills an Egyptian runs away when he comes back. He's given, given prophethood he now goes to Pharaoh. So this is the theme in Surah Shuara. Right, so Dr. Shah, the scene is that he comes to our own, and he makes Tao and the throne says to him, almost exactly like it is as if you're hearing Israeli Defense Minister or Anthony Blinken.

Right. Yeah, was that saying? Yeah, same thing. President Biden I didn't mention because I don't think he can say Simon Domenic that many words.

So what does surround says say to him?

Allah Allah Allah a bigger VENA verleden did we not raise you

among us as children, so favor upon you right? So for around propaganda, right a master of propaganda. He says, Look, Musa Moses, I raised you without a file if I can let the fire out. And then you did this crime the you know, that were contaminated caffeine and you were ungrateful. So this is Pharaoh. Right?

This is the Quran. So

now Musa al salaam responds and says Paula file took a trial to her hidden enemy. Nobody. Yes, I did that and I was among those who went astray I made a mistake.

And then Musa al salaam says, buffer to me income I ran away, will allow markets to confer heavily Europe Bachmann that Allah says, Allah gave me this wisdom, this knowledge from ALLAH and then and then Musa does what I believe is like the most power of most amazing thing. He says, What till can Yama in German Maha Elijah. And I backed up any extra

and the blessing that you're talking about? Your greatness. What you what you did for me, you raised me in my eternal palace. Here is here's something else something I'll tell you what you did. You have enslaved my people. You have enslaved bunnies throughout the believers, the Muslims of the time.

So most rally Salem is identifies himself as the Muslims, the believers all of them not himself, who was raised in the palace. He identifies with his people within Kenya marine terminal Alia and a bathtub in Israel. That's what you have done.

You have colonized my people, you have enslaved my people. You have terrorized my people, you have divided and humiliated my people. And now you're telling me you raised me. So it is as if this this little favor. Right? Musa alayhis salam is the exact opposite of Abraham, of course. He's saying, You're not going to bribe me

because I am with my people. I'm my own mom automatic.

And so this is a brilliant example of deconstruction in the Quran. That's decolonial reality, that's Quranic decolonial reality that I want to teach or next generation.

I think, Tom, can I can I just 20 Secondly, of course, when they say the slogan Subhanallah No justice, no peace. Allah azza wa jal says in the law here, I'm gonna gladly will Ersan. Allah commanded justice, and kindness, excellence now but also the law and Homer says you can't have axon if you don't have either. SubhanAllah. Again, we have a consistency of coherence here, which Dr. Kramer is talking about. We are people who want peace, but just like any common sense, would say to anybody else, even from their fistula. You can't have peace without justice. And so we pray for justice, for the for the people of Philistine and for peace, to come after that justice within that

eterna mean, I mean, thank you both so much for participating this conversation

Subhanallah very emotional day. We all have a lot of.to make. So thank you both so panicle who should have online and our ancestral political will to be like? Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah.