The Problem of Evil

Mohammed Hijab


Channel: Mohammed Hijab

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Salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Welcome to another session, we are nearly going to be wrapping up with all of these sessions relating to a Chabot hat and relating to some of the main questions some of the main doubts that are put forward from common people, common folk, the laity regarding popular interrogations of Islam. And today, we're going to be talking about something which has really been a staple part of the interrogative method of many of the detractors of Islam, which is none other than the problem of evil itself. I remember some time ago, I was reading a book by Graham Oppie, who is now although he's not very charismatic, when he debates with one of our own

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Andalusi debated him. And he didn't come across as very charismatic spokesperson, but he's

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not standing that very well, at least renowned you can say some extent, in his field in academia.

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And in fact, now some have said that he is the leading atheist, few margin in the philosophy of religion. In the world today, some have said this, whether that's true or not, that's something else. I think William Lane Craig has said that actually said that Graham Oppie is the number one guy now I read a small book of his, and the book was called arguments against God was a 95 page book, maybe read this last year, the year before.

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And in that book, there wasn't actually any information, or arguments against God as Title dictates except for one.

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And everyone could guess, be the problem of evil itself. That's the only argument he had. And so the positive atheists because atheism has divided

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you know,

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loosely into two groups, positive atheists, and negative eight negative atheist is not making any argument. But it's arguing that, actually, there isn't enough evidence, they would argue for God's existence, according to them, of course,

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or at least according to what they say, which is different to what they believe.

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And there's another thing which is the positive atheist. Now, the positive atheist is most always referred to as a strident atheist. These atheists, like Richard Dawkins and others, they will try and make a case against religion, see, and really, to be honest with you the only argument that is positively made on behalf of the atheists. Is this argument, the problem of evil. Now, you might ask, why is there not that many books written? And and you know, what, you'll be surprised that most skillet a shovel or the problem of evil, there's not that many books actually written in this in the scope of Islamic history, for example, there is of course, theater, works with the Odyssey.

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And works of the Odyssey, which we're going to cover today, like different people's conceptions of evil, different people. But there isn't that many stuff or that much work produced on the so called problem of evil in the Islamic tradition.

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And the reason why is because it would seem to me the Quran has all the answers. And that seems like cliche, but the answers are very clear. Like, you know, life is a test and basic answers, but they are the best answers to this question. They are an easy and the best answer to this question. Having said that, we need to deal with this matter system systematically. So what we're going to do in terms of today's session is we're going to make this a student led session, which of course means

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or let's just say participant led session, which means that you guys are going to be doing all the work, I'm not going to be involving myself. I'm just going to be asking all the questions. And

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that's what we're going to start. So the questions we're going to start with, I want to do about seven questions today, maybe eight and then after that, we'll be mock debates. And you guys can put the gloves on and start sparring

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facts, we did some actual sparring in this room, many people know this.

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All kinds of blood was spilt on these floors. But today, it's not going to be that kind of blood. It's just going to be the academic blood.

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which is going to be split. So hey, the problem of evil. The first question, of course, is what is evil? Now what everyone's answer this question, we've got two groups here, group one and group two. The second question

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what is the thief rose dilemma? This very famous dilemma, you'll have a chance to talk about it together. This is for group A. At the same time, group B is going to be live

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Get Epicurus, another Hellenistic figure. What was his argument for the problem of evil? So you're going to be doing one Hellenistic philosophy, you guys are going to be doing another, and then you're going to teach us the situation, or what, what is this dilemma, and then we'll be talking about how to solve these dilemmas and so on. But for that we'd have to go in in a bit of depth. So you see, first dilemma, Epicurus. We're stuck 2300 years ago now, 2500 years ago, whatever it was, then we'll get on simulators. Any questions on that? So I'll give you guys 15 minutes. Okay, to answer these questions, you can speak as a group, you can do work together. And then we'll come back

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and chat Allah. And you guys are going to tell us what's going on with all these big names and these people and what did they see?

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Okay, fantastic. So I've given you guys some time to discuss. So let's start with the first question. What is evil? Let's get some dictionary definition. Some other definitions. Let's start with this one. What is evil?

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So evil as per the keyword dictionary is defined as something that's really bad, something that's good, or something that's very unpleasant. Okay. Then we have definitions. Everybody has a definition. So the definition for did by the likes of Thomas Aquinas and that also even Tamia, that evil is the privation of good. So the absence of good like a deficiency. Okay, anything gas good. Anything from the side was evil?

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Or do you think they've, they've done it? We've covered all the ground there or

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did very good, was good? Or Essentia? Potentially a fair definition?

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Some will say that

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evil is that which God says he's evil. Yeah. And that we're going to cover why there are different definitions of evil. And maybe in the third part of this session, we're talking about different schools of thought.

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Okay, good. So, let's start with you guys. This time, what is the famous UC froze dilemma? They study in our re classes in school, which you haven't been to Dallas?

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Not didn't actually got kicked out. You're right. I have to

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tell us, what is the basic structure of UC for asylum? Or what exactly are we?

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Okay, so if I've got this, right, it means that is something good, because God said so? Or is it good intrinsically, that's what God commands?

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It, essentially,

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is something good because God commands it, or does God command it because it's good. And I think the reason why it's brought up is because they're trying to disconnect God and good, which causes a lot of problems. Because if we accept the first one, that something is good, because God commands it, then the atheists will say that, well, that means that morality is arbitrary. Like, for example, tomorrow, God can decide that infanticide is is okay. And that means that we're obligated to follow it. So they use that to cause a problem. And the second one, that, you know, it's apart from God. And for that reason, God commands it, this causes another problem, because then we have something

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independent from God, which God follows. Now, for example, so there's something which is called morality, this is sort of separate from God. And Allah, Allah, he's obligated to follow this because he wants good, this is exactly the answer. I was looking for it.

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And just to tell the age, how old are you again, my friend?

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If you don't know somebody that knows.

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I'm only kidding. Oh, that's a fantastic, that's very good. That's exactly right. This is exactly the problem. I will talk about how to solve that in a second. It's a very famous silent, because actually, if you think about the schools of thought that came thereafter, in many ways, the way that they're answering the problem of evil or the problem of how of goodness or what's referred to as theodicy, yes, the series of theodicy is, in many ways a response to you see for his dilemma, that is what it is, it's a response. How do we

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kind of harmonize between these notions that you've spoken about, but it's not just Euthyphro, who's in the Hellenistic period and causing problems? For us? It was also Epicurus. So what was it that Epicurus said, in relation to evil and good? And what was his argument, which continues to be the argument for the problem of evil for a very long time? Epicurious claim that the existence of evil proved there is no good. You claim that if God cannot stop evil, then he's not all powerful, omnipotent. He then argued that if God can prevent evil one does not choose to do so then God is not good. What? Okay, that's good, fantastic. So

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whoever this is open to the floor. Now, what are the points of similarity between Epicurus and Euthyphro? What are they both trying to say? Well,

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yeah, so the good there's a question of independence and sovereignty and power.

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And this is something continuous or continuous in both epicurean theory and you see Freudian theory.

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It's hard not to pronounce man's name. But you see, so both of them are trying to ask this question is, are is morality stand alone? And if it is, what does it say about the status of God? Basically,

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if morality is standalone, what does it say about Zeus? So, now this next part of this exercise, you don't need to research here, you just need to talk and I'll give you less time this time, which is, I'll give you 10 minutes. How would you respond you personally, how would you respond? And you can, although we're going to be speaking about this a little bit more, make reference to certain theories that you might have read? Or you know about a theodicy.

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So how would you respond? So I'm gonna give you 510 minutes, you can speak with your colleagues, and then we'll come back. So far, so good, so far, we know what you throw set. And we know what Epicurus said, Actually, just to make sure that we know you guys are gonna test them, and you guys gonna test them? That's gonna be the first thing you guys do. Yeah, but that's not gonna happen here. It's going to happen behind the scenes. So we'll have 10 minutes we'll come back. Okay, so let's start with Epicurus. How would you solve? Someone came to an atheist say, and he said that look, this, I'm putting the argument forward. How would you respond to this argument? Start with this group? Could

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could we say that they're, they're taking into account only two of Allah's attributes, which is his power, and his love,

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being all loving, all powerful. But he they're forgetting about, you know, we as particularly as Muslims, we, we believe that Allah has over 99 attributes. And one of the, you know, one of the, one of the attributes is being the wise. Yes. So, you know, I mean, to use Hamza, such as example, he has the picture, and we have the pixel. So, I think that's fantastic. That's exactly right. I mean, you know, if the whole the the major assumption in the

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picture put forward by procuress is that God has two attributes is all good, and he's all powerful. And if he lets evil exists in the world, then this negates one of his attributes, and if you let's good if he if you cannot remove evil from the world, and the rule gets his other attribute, which is His omnipotence is a part of his power. And the response, the Muslim response would be from a theological perspective would be, Well, God isn't just we don't believe that God just has two attributes, we believe that God is wise, he's all just evil. And wisdom is what are shaping mechanically, so he, or putting something in its appropriate place, or in a word is appropriately

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and the wisdom of God is based on the infinite knowledge of God? You know, and on this point, I mean, there's a very famous, very famous, I don't think it's a Hindu tradition. But I find it quite interesting. And it was, so persons blind person was taken to the elephant, three blind person, elephant, I don't know where this story came from, Eastern story. One blind person touched the, you know, the tail of the elephant, the other one touch the ear of the elephant, the other one touch the trunk of the elephant. And each of these three blind people came back and it was, what is it? What is an elephant and each each had a different idea of what the elephant is, one of them says, a very

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long and hairy creature, the answer very wavy creature, the onset or whatever, yeah, the point is, is that the neither of them had an understanding of what the elephant was, because they all as you mentioned, you know, had a picture a pixel. And as he keeps mentioning, the picture wasn't made clear for them. So in other words, when you have more knowledge about something, then you can judge on the basis of that knowledge, what is appropriate action, what is inappropriate action, so because God was all knowledgeable, you can see the bird's eye view of all of reality, all of reality has a bird's eye view of it, you know, a perfect picture, the intricacies, the internal, the external,

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everything. And since God has that, you know, image of the world and everything in it, then he can determine based on that image, what is appropriate action for that time, even though it may seem to be painful or suffering or something like that. That's why a lot of people will they go through pain and suffering, they have an emotional response. And we have to cover this I think, maybe a big Don't Don't forget, we're talking about logical things here. But a lot of the thing with the polar universe is psychological. How could my child die? For example, this is well how can i My auntie have cancer? Why can see these people for example, David Attenborough,

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when he was asked if you believe in God, and he talked about the child with the worm coming up the child, it

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I mean, what was it? What was it? Oh, sorry, Stephen Fry. Oh, Attenborough said something similar. And I think you know something about problem problem of evil. I mean, is it? Where's the argument? I'm so waiting to hear the argument, in a sense. So the point is when you really assess it, if God has many attributes, and of them is justice, and knowledge and power, and to be honest with you, it's not just Muslims who believe in that. Most world religions don't just believe that God has two attributes.

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So it's a straw man of the position. And that's why even even

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atheists of today, people like William roe and others, have looked at this. I've looked at this and said, that is intellectually bankrupt. The problem of evil is an intellectually bankrupt proposition like this idea. The epicurean dilemma. For example, you see for us, Allah Malawi, both of them, but in the case of for example, purists.

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It's not seen as voracious. It has no argument is no strong argues no gun, the cutter there doesn't there's no knock down. I haven't seen anything. So even atheists have given up on this now,

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which is quite striking and surprising when you look at the academy. So let's go to the other ones. We mentioned Epicurus, and his dilemma, let's talk about the other big heavyweight,

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which is easy for him. And his dilemma. So what have you guys, Unison is start with you, because you've just state the position first, and then Shaq and maybe you can add to an ally as well. This is for the solution? Yeah. Yeah, we're just take what is the first time okay, I liked the way you phrase, it was very well, so the question is, is something good? Because God commands it? Or does God command something because it is beautiful. And the way it is framed as the first fork as you record it? It's aimed to,

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if you accept that this is a proposition that things are good, because God commands it, then the atheists will argue that morality is arbitrary. Today, God can say one thing, and another thing, which is completely contradictory. And they'll give examples of things which are quite evil in our standards, like murder and rape, and it causes a lot of problems. Basically, morality is arbitrary. And the second one, the second fork, the idea is that if God commands something, because it is good, that means that morality is something independent from God, and that God is dependent on this. This is something outside of God that he has to follow, right? Which also causes another problem, because

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we believe Allah, is someone independent, self sufficient. I think that's the problems with ACS is trying to arise from the President's console. Now, in order to solve this problem. Many people in the past have attempted different kinds of thing. Many theologians, many philosophers and thinkers have attempted or come with different kinds of conclusions, and how to answer this question. So what are some of these? Let's say, what are some of the chakras? Let me ask you directly,

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some of these approaches, and how Which one do you prefer?

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It seems that,

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at least as far as the two forks of the argument are mentioned, that there is like an assumption here, which is, I think, rejected by certainly for Muslims, which is, which is the assumption that

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goodness as a as a quality as an attribute, whatever you want to put it, is something which is you which can be separated from God's essence. And that's something which we wouldn't really admit. Or except, well, I don't have all Muslims that said that or other schools of thought on the matter.

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That points there specifically, for the issue of the goodness of God. I mean, does everyone have the same conception, let's say within the Islamic framework, no, but at least, at least at this stage anyways, as I'm making it, I think, based on the discussion that we've had, and things that we've looked at, because everybody's in agreement, that goodness is not something which is

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separate from from Allah, or so going back to the example here, there's something good because Allah commands it.

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At least once again at this stage.

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Goodness is something which is which follows from a line it informs the commands that he gives. And from the second case as well, there is no entertaining the possibility that goodness is something which is independent

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from Allah subhanho wa taala. Then within the Muslims, there's like on finer details as differences of opinion.

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So from an IT standpoint,

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for them, it's more of a commodity type thing, that things are good. Well, based on what Allah subhanho wa Taala commands, that's how we are able to find out what's good and what's evil Allah is the one who determines that and they have like, reasoning but they have is from the Quran which would seem to support their position and Allah, Allah and will be fascia. For example,

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that Allah does not come on to things which are deplorable or debauched

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with that would that would that serve to back the Divine Command Theory kind of perspective or the opposite perspective?

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Was if you consider el fascia as a standalone thing,

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which indicates his pre existence before the command was made

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in the Allah does not come on to things which are, they will say that. Yeah, they would say that this that Allah not combining that which has fascia is it indicates that Allah, I guess there'll be there'll have to be like, I guess some kind of like,

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what do you call it?

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Some type of maneuvering here, basically to fit this in. But the idea that, for instance, certain things we've talked about in the Columbia army, like carbon meter,

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it wants to show piles that

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you can keep it, you can say whatever you want, you know, I think you've done a good job in saying, let me just summarize some of the things that you've said. And

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you can add or subtract and ally, I'm gonna give you a provocative question. I'm sure you're used to those usually used to those used to these

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better than being slapped as you usually do.

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That's what I was gonna say that.

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Look, you see first dilemma. Eunice, tell us one more time.

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What is it because I know people are going to be scratching their heads out. So the three faced dilemma, or if you three first dilemma, simply put is the question which he places is, is something good because God commands it? Or does God command something that is evil? And some may people may think that why is that even a problem? If we accept the first one, that something is good, because God commands it, then an atheist may ask or may assert that, well, this means that, you know, morality is arbitrary. It's just based on what God feels at the time. So if God says one point that you know,

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killing people is okay, and killing children and stealing from people, then that will make okay. And I think that naturally raises a problem. And the second one is that on that point, just because I want to, this is important, on the first point of the fork, where if something is wrong, because God commands it, and so for example, if God commands, raping or pillaging or I don't know, whatever it may be, if someone is divine command theorists, would they find some issues with this? Most likely, no. I mean, the way they answer it, you know, we've discussed it, I mean, you can be more breezy to say, I don't know the word is flat, right? The way you answer like, the question would be asked if

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God told you to kill a boy. Right? Would you do it? Well, somebody answers saying, Well, yes, because that's the logical conclusion of the argument why if some God commands something is from his nature, that means that what God commands is good. Yes. But, you know, there's there's more nuance to it. Right? Some may say that, you know, God might come on that abstractly, but he won't, because you know, we know Allah, how he is through the scriptures and whatnot. So there's a lot of nuance to it, which I don't think I'm very qualified to you. No, no, no, no, you're doing a good job. And that's why I'm pushing you. Now. Let me push it down, because I think he deserves it the most.

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If I was to say to you, then

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why is something that we ask them, you just play a bit of roleplay with you, then why is something wrong?

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Why something wrong? Yeah. Why is or how is something made to be halal or haram?

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Well, our belief is that

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we believe that everything that God commands is good. And where there is not that God is absence of his, sorry. So wherever there is, we say we say that God's whatever God has commanded is good. And the absence where we see the lack of that goodness is where his mercy were.

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Okay, the example for example, that we believe that it's like darkness, yeah. So we say that there is no such thing as darkness. There is no such thing as evil. It's just the absence of light and the light will believe goodnesses or evil is privation. Yes, yes. Instance. Yes. So is the example of the darkness and light. We don't believe there's such thing as darkness. Yes, it's just the absence of light. Okay, so let's can symbolize God's mercy. And the absence of His mercy is the darkness which is evil. Is it something good or bad? Because God commands it to be good or bad? Or is it? Is it so because it's lacking in the goodness of God lacking the goodness of God? So the example gave a

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talk and might so if I was to say, if God commanded you to if God if God if God commands somebody to rape a child, for example, or to be a child to death

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would it become good? Well, the question is, it's not that simple. So we go to the example where we try it's very simple

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strides and atheists Yeah, you can see you can see the question Yeah.

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Let me let me let me answer Yeah.

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The thing is, it's like the example that's kind of relates to this is Can God make a rock so big that he can't lift? Now in this very instance that it goes against cause attribute? So we will say it's an impossibility. It's an impossibility that God can make a rock so big that he can't lift. In this instance way. Is it? Because He's incapable? No, no, it's not incapable. Isn't there is no such thing. The example given it's not it's not an example because it God cannot make a rock solid, because the concept in itself is false. There is no such thing. It's not a thing. So now with this instance, can is it plausible that God can command this? It is plausible, but would he is where we

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come and say, No, he wouldn't. So similar to the example of Can God make a rock? So that's an impossibility in this instance? Can he definitely can. But will he know he wouldn't? Why wouldn't it? Because he wouldn't. Why? Because, again, we call it goes back to, we believe God or goodness comes from God, and the lack of his goodness is evil.

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Okay, I think you've answered it quite well, to be honest. I did. Of course.

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I do like your distinction. You know, that's what you said at this point of the discussion.

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I was I was worried. I'm happy to read through this. Because it's me, we're learning from the best, you know, uniceo.

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He's been quite yet.

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Looking at the youngest one.

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He's like goalscorers today? No, all of them all of them, I

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was gonna say, guys, is that it's important for us to flush out the difference on this point, because the segue, the questions here, the way to kind of bypass, you froze, am I pronouncing it correctly? You see, four, I say, doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. If this guy's you know, whatever he is, you know, his dilemma.

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The way to do so is not to admit to either of the two things. So does God commanded? Is it God because God commands it? No, unless you're divine command theorists. I mean, to be fair, within the Islamic tradition, we have a group of Ashanti scholars who did believe in that and still do something which someone says that

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is it something good because God commands the vital monitors who say yes, but in the long, it's not just even take me a little came as Josie. In fact, many people, Augustine, Thomas Aquinas have this theory, which is that about God's goodness out there. What's interesting about Protestantism, I mean, because in a sense, Aquinas is a figurehead of

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Protestantism. Of course, he is accepted by Catholics, quite as certainly as and given to me at McLean, who, by the way when Tamia was a contemporary of Thomas Aquinas, at his time, but I don't think they've ever met or ever mentioned each other in either of their works. But the reason why they all kind of converging on the same thing is simply because in the end, all of them are their heads, if you like, the schools of thought they all talk about God's goodness in a real sense. So, you know, the Ashari school of thought we went in the first discussion about the different approaches and stuff we thought about the different approaches to the names and attributes of God.

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And we say that the National School of Thought they have there's something goes the fact of the matter, we seven of them. And then after that, there is either tough wheat or wheat applied. Okay? And we've spoken about that, but it's the bet is this idea of affirming the attributes of God.

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Protestants and authorities have a similar

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treat or they treat affirming God's goodness in a similar way. So when when a Protestant says God is good, or God is love, they mean God is love. God is good in a real sense, when after the say, even take a look at him and others that came for them in in real sense. And from that perspective, they're privation theories are literally the lacking of the goodness of good, the goodness of God. In the same way as we've discussed, Baraka with the blessings of God or Atlanta, two opposite things, asymmetrical, I invest and have a counter relationship. So Baraka is the absence of Lana Oh, sorry, Lana is the absence of Baraka or the Lana curse is the absence of blessings. Evil is the

00:29:12--> 00:29:27

absence of good and another connection to be made here, therefore, a very, because we've made a connection between the authorities and the Protestants. And maybe your most shocking surprising one would be the arteries, the processes and the post modernists.

00:29:28--> 00:29:34

Not all persons, of course, some persons have different kinds of field disease, they called feel disease.

00:29:36--> 00:29:51

But post modernists, of course, they will say that evil doesn't exist, but for completely different set of reasons. It's a meta narrative and evil doesn't exist in the real world. And that's why you'll find a lot of atheists already doing the work for us. Richard Dawkins, the Blind Watchmaker, which we've got somewhere in the bottom shelves here somewhere

00:29:53--> 00:29:54

and the toilet roll.

00:29:56--> 00:30:00

He says there is no such thing as good or evil. There is no such thing as

00:30:00--> 00:30:31

right and wrong, there is no such thing as good and evil. Sam Harris in the moral landscape says something similar. There is no such thing as good natured or something similar. So all these people who post modernists in the atheist and these guys, they're doing the work for us. If you're saying there's no such thing as good or evil than the youth, youth Rosalba and Epicurus is saying, it doesn't even factor in normal, whatever later. Why is that even though there is no evil, evil doesn't even exist? If you say evil doesn't even exist, and what do we have our pain and suffering, but there's a psychological states that people go through pain and suffering, but on on this kind of

00:30:31--> 00:31:01

atheism is meaningless. Or nihilistic idea. So who cares? If you're going to go through pain? Or you go through pleasure? It's just atoms being moving around, and this and that, and whatever, who cares? You know, but what the next thing to be explored here them? Before we do that, any questions, you, you seem like you're gonna ask something, I'm just gonna say, you said that you think evil doesn't exist. So the question of that dilemma is, why is there something that doesn't exist? That's what they'll have to name the book. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's like, why is this something doesn't exist? What do you mean?

00:31:02--> 00:31:18

What are you talking about? One approach would be to speak to atheists, can you prove the existence of evil? Like, if you take the will claim it will take me to say, Fine, you're saying that God doesn't exist because there's evil in the world can now I'll give you some microscopes. I'll give you a telescope. I'll give you a whatever you like.

00:31:19--> 00:31:28

You go take me to whatever laboratory you like in the world and show me the existence of evil. I like to see what it looks like when substance, you're the one telling me I don't believe in God, because of the lack of evidence.

00:31:29--> 00:31:42

I want to see evil, I want the evidence of evil and then you could put the onus on the atheist. I mean, at the end of the day, if evil is the absence of some we believe the absence of something the goodness of God and attribute of God, then that's one thing but I would say that

00:31:44--> 00:32:03

there are some other platonic explanations and at the Center for example had of evil Oh, very interesting. By the way, Plato believes in the world of forms that you know, Adam lash out I'm gonna shatter the world of forms. So there's, there's a place where everything is like a perfect form. This is a pen, very nice pen. Fantastic pen of course.

00:32:05--> 00:32:06

But the question is,

00:32:07--> 00:32:10

the question is, if I brought a knife here to you,

00:32:11--> 00:32:15

I've got many I'm only going okay, but if I brought an i don't know I'm looking around. Okay. Well

00:32:17--> 00:32:22

look at this is the kind of knife I believe that I would put in his pocket thinking with an offering protection.

00:32:25--> 00:32:32

What what differentiates a knife from a sword? Like, at what point does a knife stop being a knife slapping a sword?

00:32:33--> 00:32:35

The axe Okay. Okay.

00:32:37--> 00:33:00

So Plato believed, he said that look, you know, you have a place where there's a perfect knife. There is a in the world of forms. There's a place is floating around somewhere, but there's a perfect knife there somewhere. And there's a perfect sword out there somewhere. And something which is not perfect, is evil, in a sense. That's where the badness is. That's where the evilness is well,

00:33:01--> 00:33:12

at the center said that so what is something bad? This is a lamp. Something bad is something which doesn't perform as function or is deficient in some way. He had a different privation theories, privation theory of

00:33:14--> 00:33:25

privation theories are many there's many there's many privation theories. It's not just a goodness of God way you can you can do it through saying that something is deficient, therefore it's not good. It's not fit for purpose or purpose. So

00:33:26--> 00:34:04

the point is, is that evil has been described, and Fakhruddin Razia and I was reading his theocracies, I was actually quite surprised. Because he has a comment. There's a long quote commentarial tradition of Ibn Sina. And, in fact, we didn't receive a shot of Schelotto 10 B hat, one of the books of epicenter. And I think, either in that book or somewhere else, why read a verse he was responding, because every Santa speaks in great detail about his tweets in great detail about basically the Odyssey, is he talking about the depreciation? why something is not good in a full sense, and when evil was

00:34:06--> 00:34:18

deficient or diminished or some some way. And as long as he just responded, and he completely hand waved the thing off, he said, I don't even know why I've kind of spent time on this, because this is not an issue.

00:34:19--> 00:34:21

I don't see the logical issue here.

00:34:22--> 00:34:49

And you'll find a lot of people speak about this. But in reality, the question is, where's the contradiction? Where Does it contradict the? The, if you're using this argument? How does it How Does it contradict the existence of God? Like this? Is this what we're talking about that you think that the existence of evil contradicts the existence of God, an existence of a god? So Roz is answering seventh century POLYMATH. He says, How Does it

00:34:50--> 00:34:53

contradict God at all how

00:34:54--> 00:34:59

he just put his putting his hands up with hand waving the entire thing? So these are some of the approaches that are

00:35:00--> 00:35:05

Um, Jonnie have been there in the Muslim world and the Christian world, and generally speaking,

00:35:06--> 00:35:08

now what we're gonna do, it's gonna be

00:35:10--> 00:35:11

I'm gonna give you guys 10 minutes this time,

00:35:12--> 00:35:24

maybe 15 1015 minutes. And we're going to have two groups of participants, we're going to have the ACS, and we're going to have the CEUs. And we're going to

00:35:26--> 00:35:31

just make it, open it up, you know, for the for mock debate. And

00:35:33--> 00:36:10

we'll see what happens with that. I'll give you guys 1015 minutes to prepare. You know, you can you can practice with your teams, you got team one team to practice with your teams, and then we'll come back. And hopefully, if you've taken note of some of those things that we've said, we'll be back. Alright, so this is the last section, hopefully, and I'm gonna put everything into practice. I think we've covered the main areas. Of course, there's more to be said about these things, but not that much more to be honest, because there's not really a strong argument, or is it? Let's find out. We've got group one. And group two. Here, we've got heavyweights in both groups, we've got some

00:36:10--> 00:36:16

dangerous peoples and dangerous arguments, some serious things happening. So

00:36:17--> 00:36:32

who's gonna be the first spokesperson for group one? Representing actually asked to be group two, I think, because yeah, because you're gonna make the argument right? Yeah. So he's gonna be first spokesperson. There's no time here. Let's just freestyle we're gonna send our heavyweight here.

00:36:33--> 00:36:34

Okay, I swear I was ready for this.

00:36:36--> 00:36:40

Special should don't forget well, you begin to simple. I have a question for you.

00:36:43--> 00:36:48

Is something good? Because God commands it? Or does God come on it because it's good.

00:36:49--> 00:36:50

Doesn't already ready for this?

00:36:53--> 00:36:54

I can see nervousness already?

00:36:56--> 00:36:56


00:36:58--> 00:37:00

Hi, defining good and bad good.

00:37:02--> 00:37:03


00:37:06--> 00:37:11

Brothers, this is a group effort really? was a question. I think. Okay, I'm defining

00:37:12--> 00:37:13


00:37:14--> 00:37:14

The question.

00:37:17--> 00:37:20

We're going to define goodness by your definition says the question is

00:37:25--> 00:37:33

what be tested? We've been, we've been trying to say in your statement that you believe that goodness is what Allah commands or what God commands is actually

00:37:35--> 00:37:50

the question please on me, but we haven't said any consequence. Okay. Well, I'll rephrase the question. I'll restate according to your definition of morality, good and evil. Is something good because God commands it? Or is that thing? Does God commanded? Because it's good.

00:37:52--> 00:37:56

As good is good because God commands good because God commanded.

00:37:58--> 00:38:00

Agree. Yeah, one okay. So

00:38:03--> 00:38:17

now we are, we are talking. Okay, now we are gonna stay on the hug. Oh, okay. All right. Yeah. So then, are you okay? So very simple. What would you if if God, if that's the case, if God commanded to rape a little child, you think that's good, and he will do it?

00:38:21--> 00:38:29

You want to say yes or no to this? Basically, if God commanded you bad. Oh, okay. Okay. So he's basically

00:38:30--> 00:38:38

he's saying basically, I think we should let I think we should let them answer the question clearly, because I don't like when we respond. You know, the question wasn't my question. The question was, specifically,

00:38:40--> 00:38:57

salami, there's two questions rather than one salami, just just just for simplicity, but just just for moderation reasons. You asked him if you asked him, Is it? Is it used for the use T for Pharma? And he did answer he said that. It's answered because God, come on. Come on, come on. Got it. Yes. We got it trying to go for the

00:38:59--> 00:39:21

Yeah, exactly. We call it so that means one. So let's let's get the camera. Yeah. So this individual is saying that basically, if you rape a little child, it is good, because God said, so. There you go put him on camera. Because the police are allowed to allow them to explain themselves, because I just want to make it very clear, because although in abstraction, it's possible due to the attributes that Allah has, oh, God has no obstruction. What's wrong with abstraction?

00:39:22--> 00:39:24

In if God commanded it,

00:39:25--> 00:39:26

let him finish his sentence.

00:39:28--> 00:40:00

In abstraction, so not in reality, it's possible. Okay. But because of all the other attributes of God, it's not conceivable. Well, why would say to respond to that is that, well, you don't have the capacity to just explain what's conceivable and what's not, for example, exempt from the Quran, right? When Musa alayhis salam saw her killing the baby, he couldn't conceive why this would be moral, right? You couldn't conceive why this would be a good thing to do. He asked him why would you do such a thing, but because the knowledge that he was given later on, about the justification for that things changed. So in the example jumping

00:40:00--> 00:40:15

giving you now, not that I'm saying that there's a conceivable reason which came to me why someone would do such an act to a child. But what I'm saying is that if you are presented with something which goes against your understanding of morality, like killing and stealing and raping, right, and God commands us, according to you, this should be more right.

00:40:16--> 00:40:31

Because you can't say, oh, it's not conceivable, because how do you know what's conceivable? Musa alayhis salam did not know was conceivable. When Musa Allison's mother was told to throw a baby in the river this is something which goes against what's naturally well they're just like it goes against us to rape and kill and steal was okay because she's come on to

00:40:34--> 00:40:56

do what you would kill and rape and to do and it will be Morrow if God commanded because of all the attributes, would you? Wouldn't people select Musa alayhis salam God would never tell me to throw a baby in the river and kill a boy Okay, killing a boy this is a specific scenario with a with Heather which most of them I say that he was a prophet. So his direct inspiration which other humans would not have a specific scenario

00:40:57--> 00:41:37

specific instances it is allowed. So what I do an action that can be deemed as evil no problem with you know, if a Prophet got to get inspiration from God killing a child or from God, so therefore you're accepting that if it's if if in specific instances this is frozen, okay, so therefore, if argument's sake, God, Your God Almighty gave revelation about what ABCD rape or whatever it may be, that therefore you're saying that in this exception, you will do it? And it's because I was specifically I was want to be specific as well. It doesn't it doesn't matter what the specific act is, if God commands it according to your Divine Command Theory. Yeah. Then if God says no matter

00:41:37--> 00:42:07

what he says, It is more like this example of people who are not prophets like the Quran burning sorry, they were told to kill themselves is not just not understanding society. This is one scenario, right? But it doesn't mean that it's applied to everything. Okay, the lesson um, yeah, it was a different it was as a kid. Yeah. What's the scenario, the scenario? This scenario of right, we'll say this one scenario, one scenario, one scenario, but it's never been a situation where no one has ever had to do that you're presenting us with a Swiss square circle.

00:42:08--> 00:42:16

Inspiration, specifically, the Prophet and his direct inspiration, then, the reason why you can't use the example of rape is because it hasn't happened before.

00:42:19--> 00:42:19


00:42:21--> 00:42:22

what happened? Yeah.

00:42:24--> 00:42:54

You see, so if you take that, you know, I'm role playing here, you know, I'm still a Muslim. You know, if you take this argument to its logical conclusion, anything that can be ordered any immoral act, which we seem to be a moral can now tomorrow, the legislation I, for example, can come down and you have to follow and say it's more right. Like you have to follow it to its logical conclusion. Once you're in you're in breach Okay, so what I'm going to ask you before if you can if you can find good Nobilia you will

00:42:55--> 00:42:56

you want us to define you

00:42:57--> 00:43:07

know, we don't we don't define we're not we don't depend on this. We don't look worse in arguments. We don't believe they're evil. When when most people when lost when we don't have we don't know what morality is.

00:43:12--> 00:43:17

We're trying to understand you don't understand ourselves. Why can't understand me? Because I don't understand myself. I don't know why.

00:43:18--> 00:43:19


00:43:21--> 00:43:24

we're consistent. We said there is no evil you claim

00:43:25--> 00:43:26

to know what the point is you believe and not.

00:43:28--> 00:43:34

Listen, listen, I'm putting my hands. were judging you guys. According to your own standard as last atheists

00:43:35--> 00:43:56

as lost atheist, we don't know what morality is we don't have morality. We're lost. We're lost my words what we're doing right now. We're attacking your position, using your standard position without having any position told. So will you stand in your position? Yeah, position is as atheists in roleplay. There's no such thing as morality. We came for a bunch of particles, you know, we have no purpose.

00:43:58--> 00:43:59

Killing is fine. Yeah.

00:44:01--> 00:44:05

Why are you killing me? Why are you why are you so offended? Yeah.

00:44:06--> 00:44:27

We want you guys to convince us to be like people, you're not we're saying we're lost. We're saying we have no morality. Yes, as long as it's logical, as long as it's located at whatever conclusion you come to then just take that. So your logical conclusion is that because of Divine Command Theory, it is conceivable that any immoral acts such as killing raping and stealing can be correct. That's that's the position which all because

00:44:28--> 00:44:31

it's with all God's attributes taken into account.

00:44:34--> 00:44:38

Am I better than you guys here? I would say that, sorry, is more fragile.

00:44:41--> 00:44:59

So what I'm saying is, in a nutshell, what we're seeing is that from our point of view, yeah, we don't believe it. But I would say as percent of atheists that I believe God will never come and that you will say you're saying, one second, the raping of a child, but you're seeing if God comers I think

00:45:00--> 00:45:09

is good, therefore, that's good. I'm better than you know what I'm saying, you know, in the rape scenario, yes. So that would not It's not conceivable like we already mentioned this because of God's other attributes.

00:45:10--> 00:45:11


00:45:12--> 00:45:26

Most wise what Allah revealed the reason why other killed the boy, if I was out at the time, I could say what reason? Conceivably, could you ever kill him while he was playing on the beach? Okay, well, as I mentioned, it was just a specific scenario, it was a specific scenario with a profit.

00:45:29--> 00:46:00

That's let's get, so you guys can give explanation, definition of good and evil, we're gonna give you permission. We don't believe there is such a thing. So you will Yeah, we, we believe that you will use the absence of good, AWS evil, then you define evil. So he's like, costume doesn't leave it then I'm saying evil is the absence of good, evil is like light and darkness. So it will be absence of light provision of goodies.

00:46:04--> 00:46:05


00:46:06--> 00:46:11

now, in the example of hidden Prophet Musa,

00:46:12--> 00:46:18

we will say, in this case, the most good thing to do was work.

00:46:19--> 00:46:20

What God

00:46:22--> 00:46:23

commanded to

00:46:24--> 00:46:55

understand that was the that was, we agree, that's fine. That's totally fine. Like, let's get out of character. For example, obviously, what Allah commanded. This was something which was moral because Allah had high wisdom for Musa Salam did not understand. We accept that right? But now when you open up this door, right, if you say that this is the standard, which we say, you know, Allah can command something. And because Allah commands it, then it's moral. Allah can tell you to do something tomorrow, which goes against everything you believe in. Like, for example, if I'm giving the example, I don't know if we're meant to talk about this after Allah told Abraham and I say lamb to

00:46:55--> 00:47:22

slaughter his son, this goes against everything that our Father is supposed to know. And I'm protecting my son and raise my son. But, but Right, but according to your understanding, he went and continued like he did, he obeyed the law he submitted, obviously, in the end, he didn't kill it, Sonic ended up being a sacrifice, but you get the point. If that's the style in which you're using our luck, you could be in order to do anything, and it's absolutely my man. It's not gonna happen. What didn't happen? Why didn't Prophet

00:47:24--> 00:47:28

Abraham, you can listen, that's a good what do you what do you? What do you go along with?

00:47:30--> 00:48:01

that specific instance? So So is he going to test you by saying go rape a child? And then is he going to imagine he's going to stop you in that specific scenario is a prophet's you can't apply it to anyone else? Well, if they were meant to derive, like, wisdom from that you understand? Right? And I already told you that there's examples outside of that, right? Like the bunnies already being told to kill themselves. Right? He's so lucky totally to do something which goes against everything you believe in as a society. What you always seem to be more the consensus, right? Maybe there's a bigger

00:48:03--> 00:48:13

Yeah, bigger good. In the, you know, what? Can we do one thing? Can we switch? Seems like you guys do the Muslims, and you guys do the opposite?

00:48:19--> 00:48:24

Yeah, I was gonna say that, you know, this whole point around, like, you know, something being conceivable or not?

00:48:25--> 00:49:01

Isn't that just the do like, isn't it all about information? Like, it seems like, that's what it meant to me, I was trying to see, you know, what he was saying, when he said, from one perspective is impossible, and from another visit, right? So when it comes to Allah, you know, God commanded morality, we will understand that this is conceivable from the perspective of an atheist who has the conception of God that isn't necessarily all good. But from our perspective as Muslims, we know, that is all good. So now with this, you know, missile mission, it now becomes inconceivable for a lot to, you know,

00:49:03--> 00:49:12

do the same in terms of the two types of impossibility. He says that is is one kind of impossibility which is an impossibility in of itself like a squared circle.

00:49:13--> 00:49:20

So in a way is you can put it this way you can say it's impossible because of itself. And there's a there's an impossibility because of some other reason.

00:49:21--> 00:49:49

And the other type of impossibility. It's impossible because of God's of attributes, for example, that it doesn't fit his Majesty or it goes against his idea of godly Carmel, the perfection of God. So, in fact, we had this developed theory about the perfection of Carmel of God, the perfection of God, anything which went against it, then he would say it's impossible because it would be acted in Acts for the robber who would create some deficiency. So that's that's the way he

00:49:50--> 00:49:52

Okay, guys, what we're gonna do is, yeah,

00:49:55--> 00:49:57

I think that's basically the same thing, right? Because

00:49:58--> 00:49:59

from a business perspective,

00:50:00--> 00:50:11

Right logically, like it's not logically impossible, right? I'm not saying that this is something that's logically possible. We're saying that, you know, based on what we have a lot, this is impossible, right? That's what we're saying.

00:50:13--> 00:50:15

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly.

00:50:17--> 00:50:19

Now, let's switch over.

00:50:21--> 00:50:33

Let's go again. Let's do that last 510, five, seven minutes, and then we'll call it a night. Yeah. So you guys be the Muslims now. And you guys will be the atheists. Now. I will start with you guys. Group one,

00:50:35--> 00:50:36

make an opening statement.

00:50:37--> 00:50:37


00:50:40--> 00:50:42

now you're more than welcome to start, if you like.

00:50:43--> 00:50:45

So as the same question,

00:50:46--> 00:50:46


00:50:47--> 00:51:20

it's something good because God commands always something good because it's intrinsically good. Oh, I think the question has a lot of assumptions which are based on to it like for the, for example, the first one right, is something good because God commands it right? We're making a separation between goodness and God, while us as Muslims will be Allah is the goodness right? Goodness is something which is a property which Allah possesses, right? It's part of his nature to be good. So when Allah commands something, it's not just arbitrary. It's not just based on random desire. So it doesn't mean that Allah is not doing things based off wisdom. So when Allah commands something, he

00:51:20--> 00:51:34

says something is halal and something is haram. It's not just based on something arbitrary. As I said, before, I'm repeating myself. It's something which is based on wisdom, maximal knowledge and maximal wisdom, maximal lovingness, and justice? And can all of these sort of things right.

00:51:35--> 00:51:36

As well, the second one,

00:51:37--> 00:51:46

does God come on something? Because it's good? I think that deals with that as well, because as I said, it's not something independent from Allah, right? This is something which is which he possesses. So

00:51:48--> 00:51:49

how would you respond to that?

00:51:58--> 00:52:02

You have to you have to push back, guys, come on. How are you defining evil? What is you?

00:52:08--> 00:52:22

We believe that God Almighty is like, darkness and light, we believe there is no such thing as darkness. There is no such thing as evil. It says the absence of good. So therefore, anywhere that you see evil, it is the absence of good.

00:52:24--> 00:52:25

Now, I saw definition.

00:52:28--> 00:52:30

Would you like a definition of good as well?

00:52:32--> 00:52:37

Good, good, man. Well, you guys have to push back. He's a good man. This is the last this is the last couple of runs?

00:52:39--> 00:52:41

Well, hard questions you have for them.

00:52:42--> 00:52:43

Ask us the same way about

00:52:49--> 00:52:49

this guy?

00:52:51--> 00:53:24

We got we got a whole world full of evil. I mean, it's hard to find good anywhere. So how can you justify this? How can you all powerful good. allow this to happen? You said that we've got a whole lot of evil. Well, not to contradict myself earlier. But you as atheist, you cannot say that because you don't have a definition of evil. Right. Obviously, as we've as we've said, we've affirmed, we asserted that there is no such thing as evil, there's just absence of good. So that wouldn't really mean anything to us saying that there's a whole lot of you around the world, I'd say no, there's no evil, there's pain and the suffering, but we would have defined this as evil.

00:53:27--> 00:53:28


00:53:29--> 00:53:30


00:53:31--> 00:53:31


00:53:34--> 00:53:35

the causes.

00:53:37--> 00:53:39

Have a nice summer.

00:53:40--> 00:53:44

Conference. Yeah, because it's suffering. Yeah. bone cancer and children.

00:53:45--> 00:53:50

Can you prove that suffering is? Can you show me that? Can you show me abstract?

00:53:52--> 00:54:07

Proof proof? We want to see this evil, you're talking? Are we talking about cancer in child? How's that evil? Can you show me I want to see it for approval? Please, logically, scientifically? Yeah. Can you prove that evil exists? Is it empirically, I want to touch feel taste, see, here? Does good checker require?

00:54:10--> 00:54:44

Does God exist independent of God? That's good. Well, no good does not exist independent of God, because goodness is a property of God, something that God possesses as part of his nature to be good. So everything that he he says everything that He sends down is always good, because that's who God is. Right? So I think it's important that everything he says is good. I think that's important as Muslims were the examples you've given in the Quran about Catherine and the header and the boy and Musa alayhis salam and her and her son Musa Islam and his mother. I mean, most Allison's mother throwing the baby into water as well as many of you being told to kill themselves, all of these

00:54:44--> 00:54:59

examples, right? If we're Muslims, then what we have to do is accept that everything that Allah sends down is correct, and submit. And that's what he did when he was told to kill the boy, he submitted material. Good. So you know, it really dreaminess around when he's trying to slaughter Islam.

00:55:00--> 00:55:01

Is that the privation of good

00:55:05--> 00:55:07

the act of slaughtering your son is that provision of good

00:55:09--> 00:55:10


00:55:15--> 00:55:47

the privation of good is Fortunate Son, the provision could not because if wisdom is involved then to you, it looks like evil. For example, if a child is running towards a fire net because he has to concern attributes, you can't just say we were muslims. So we have definitely, no, no, none of us do this work in conjunction together. We can't say, God is just good, or God is just all knowing, oh, he's just all powerful. No, they work in conjunction with each other. So if a child is running to the fire, and my child, and the only thing that I can do is my feet is that reach and I kick that for the child? What I did is evil or good. Sorry.

00:55:48--> 00:55:50

China's evil. Okay, it's good. Yeah, but

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okay, see? What we're gonna go to the fire. So was it good or evil tears wisdom here, right? Okay, good. What is it good or evil? What I did, and it's good. Yeah. Okay, but to the child. Was it good or evil? It was good. By the way, it was evil. Because the question you asked me

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00:56:09--> 00:56:10


00:56:11--> 00:56:12

Oh, yeah. What was it again?

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If God is good

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okay, if that's commentary, number so effective. Okay, you know, okay, so I've got ya, Allah. Can you agree with the ALLAH can only command was good.

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Only commands. Okay, so then, when ALLAH is commanding, Ebrima lesson to store to his son. Is that good? Yes. Yes, yes. I'll tell you why. So you can so it's conceivable to you that people will learn how you mentioned before the NBA I have certain things that I said when you said you know, okay, so the conclusion of this is that it's conceivable, there's nothing wrong with slaughtering the sun.

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That's a good thing. Right? Well, that's what we said. It's good. It's good. It's good. What was good, right? What was good in the sense was that Ibrahim Ali Salam received an order from Allah, which went against everything that his neffs told him, I don't want to lose my son. I don't want to kill my son. I don't want to this by he submitted to Allah. And that was the greatest of deeds. Yeah, it was amazing. It was good. It was good.

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Come on to do something like slaughtering your son. That's good. It's important to mention his story.

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Like another like NBA in our history, or someone, you know, whatever happened to them? They were commanded, you know, to slaughter their son, their mother, the sort of their mother. Yeah. Is that good? If they got to come on? It's good. Because what did we talk? We talk so good that they got we talked about going to school to their mother? Yes. Yes. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. Let me just explain. It's a good thing. Let me explain to you, is it No, it's a good thing. Very simple. Yeah. God, what did you say he's the most wise? Yes, Wisdom means putting the right thing in the right place, and also having foresight of what is about to follow. Now, originally, Saddam was

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taught to sort of his son. Yeah, they, they were going ahead, right. They showed number one, the submission to God Is that good or bad is good. Did God replaced that reward with instead of a son being slaughtered? It was a, an animal. So the result was good. The order was good. them trying to submit to it was good, and they passed it which is good. And in the moment when they were going to do it. Allah says in the Quran, if you fear me, I will give you away from places you can never imagine. So therefore, when they attempted it, Allah's Mercy came down. And what did we say? Evil is the absence of God's mercy. Yeah. So therefore, when he attempted it, Allah rewarded them with human

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sacrifice your son, it was just a test. That's what it was good.

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What I'm saying is submit is the act of commanding. So Allah commanded by Allah, like he commanded this one to use the command itself. You're saying it didn't happen, okay. It didn't happen at one point. But Allah, you're saying that's conceivable that he could say, but he could come on to think like,

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he actually happened to ask my question I have let's give another example. I'm helping you. I'm helping you. A blind man is Salam. I know the question. The question. I got the questions. All this wisdom behind Yes. Okay. Cool. But what I'm saying is Allah still commanded this act, yes. Is the issue of the command because the issue is Allah cannot commit law cannot command immorality, if you're killing your son immoral. Yes, yes, yes, yes. But if I can ask you, I want to give a concrete question which will I think really solve this problem as a as an atheist. Did any evil arise from this whole scenario? No, I'm asking you though. No, I'm asking you the question we did we asked this

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we said yes, yes. So now you're suffering your son is fine. No, you said that your your question was was the command when Allah commanded Musa Ibrahim is allowed to kill us to slow tests on Yes, was this more I said yes. Please allow me to answer counsel question can you understand how this very problematic because then you're saying it's within the essence of God to command things like immoral No, but look, very simple did it? Was it did it right Manny salah? Did he? Did he sacrifice did he sacrifices some reason? No. No, but that's not the issue. The issue is the commodity but you're taking wisdom out of it. Did God knew he's gonna say he's gonna stop it or not the wisdom No.

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but it is a bit to it.

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Exactly. I'm not talking about the wisdom, okay to go back to command.

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Because there isn't there is an assumption here. You're seeing without without wisdom, I'm with you. If there's no wisdom, how?

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With wisdom? Yes, no, because we have wisdom that will not be spoken of your son. Allah told someone Yeah, he has a son. He loves him so much. Yeah. Allah said sacrifice was something closer to me. Is that a good thing? Yes, it's a good thing. But the thing is, is what we're seeing is with without wisdom, it won't be good. Yes.

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We're asked this question. Because Allah has infinite foresight, infinite wisdom alone knew the outcome of that situation that Allah knew that up for you, excuse me, Allah knew that is a Brahim and Islam will be able to prove his loyalty to Allah, that smile will be able to prove his loyalty to Allah, and that there will there will be a sacrifice instead of a smile, and that it will be in the Quran. And all Muslims will take this lesson of submitting to Allah. Now, my last thing like as an atheist, yeah, you're playing as atheists. Can you tell me anything immoral that came out of that scenario?

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Can also my question.

01:01:12--> 01:01:16

Yes. Okay. Let's see. Yeah. How would you answer your own question? long question.

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I would say I think Shaq or JD said that first of all, like, even if

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Abrahamsson was common to do that, it's not necessarily a bad thing. So I think that might be one answer. Not the answer is the fact that

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when almost one of Allah commanded Brahim and esalaam, to do this act, it wasn't the actual act of sacrificing.

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It was the act of because in his manner, he saw a dream. And in the dream, he just lifted off his axe. Yeah, because it's problematic if you say Allah commanded to do this, because in the eyes of Allah, certain implications of morality. So he's sitting in his Milan in his dream in his sleep, he saw him lifting up the axe. I think it's Edmontonians explanation of it. So himself didn't have the axe. I'm not actually slaughtering the sun. So it was it got up to that point. And he fulfilled the root. Yeah. Yeah, so it wasn't actually commanded to and it was a mana masala. Some other point. So all I did commanded free speech is literally just through a dream. What do you think so yeah, do you

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think it's illogical to, like assume that if there was not a, you know, he would have he would have taken the point is that he wasn't actually commanded or in his dream to slaughter, the actual slaughtering wasn't commanded. Not only that, the command is interesting, because the thing is, sometimes we will talk about this, some scholars said that, if you look at it, they actually the first thing they sacrificed was the knifes the first thing, because when they will do this and say, my, all my grandfather, if Allah said that you see me a monk would be the patient there. So they both sacrificed what the fact that they're going to the fact he's going to sacrifice his son, and

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the fact that sounds gonna be sacrifices, the first thing we sacrifice, so I'm gonna say they sacrifice the fact that they're going to do that. So even if it was Allah would have not the fact is what they believe this is about to happen. And they submitted to it and went along until Allah's command came and saved them from them. So the thing is, I by being nothing wrong with that, like Amanda, or that he wasn't actually going to do the sacrifice itself.

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The issue would be as follows the issues if you take that even time in route, yes. And you say that evil is the absence of

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evil is the absence of good,

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then if you take that definition, and then you are to be asked, Why is why is the slaughtering of the commander, the slaughtering of Ibrahim wrong? Why is it good? And you say, because God, because God said, so? Then you've decided to go for Divine Command Theory. Yeah, I'm just saying, just see what's happened. Yeah. So you can't decide to have one theodicy in the beginning and then switch to the Odyssey, or one way of dealing with it and switch it midway. So there are limitations if you like, there's explanatory scope for each of these things. So Divine Command Theory has its issues and Ibn Taymiyyah things has issues, this textual issues which can be overridden. That's why he had

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to go that far. Even though the Quran says, you know, in your right mind, I mean, you have lack of funds of mother, Tara

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you know, it says that I've seen in my sleep that I was going to slaughter you. So tell me what to do Yanni. Call us essentially, inshallah. Sobre. You know, you'll see me very patient and so on. The question is, if God doesn't do admirable fascia in Allah, Allah and mobile fascia, it doesn't do come on to the evil then at what point or how is this command? Good?

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It's how is it lacking in the, in the, the, the, sorry, how is it not lacking in the goodness of God for you to slow or a prophet or child or whatever it may be? Because at the end of the day, God has for scientists that that is not going to happen. It's like me coming and saying, Okay, I want you to go and shoot this person. Yeah. And he thinks I'm gonna get books. I'm joking. So effectively, effectively

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I think you're onto something here in a sense that you could say it's good, because the results already know. It's good because not not necessarily, you can say, it's good, because as you mentioned, God didn't actually order the slaughtering of the child here. But if you go with a multimeter, this would be the kind of reasoning you'd have to it wasn't a slaughter and other charges, all that the slaughtering. Now,

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Ibrahim may have interpreted that to mean the slowing of the child. But that might not have been the right interpretation that might, so God informed him of the right interpretation, when, as the event took place. Obviously, if you take a Divine Command Theory route, then you can go straight and say, well, because God said, so you see. So that's one limitations. The limitations that might come out to a root is the question that you guys were asking yourselves in the beginning, if God if God if God

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if God says,

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you know, raping a child or killing a baby or whatever, is that right? It is strict, unadulterated, voluntary, so yes, you can't really go against this. If God wants something to be to be good or bad than if God if God commanded something, which is not logically impossible, for example,

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raping a child, then could that be wrong?

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So the limitation of someone like the Divine Command Theory thing is you'd have to say Yes, sir. So, in a sense, it doesn't have as much explanatory scope as the other theory. But in many other senses, and other verses like that, you'd have a very straightforward response, a more straightforward response potentially, then, than the other approach. But you know, the idea is, I think, you need to be consistent. Whatever approach you use, you need to be consistent with the approach. So if you decide to go with the Divine Command Theory, if that's what you believe in, if you believe in the privation approach, if that's what you believe in, then you must make sure that you're covering your

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ground but apart from that, I think it was a very robust exchange. Because fantastic because mashallah, Eunice's new,

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new person and is and well done lady as well. I think it was good that especially in the second round, you started coming in.

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Very good and other Sally is seasoned with that we conclude and maybe we'll do another session on this, but maybe not.

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We'll see how it goes. In fact that I'm gonna do a session next on humanism because we haven't done anything on humanism. So that's another thing that you recommended as taking all your recommendations. Seriously.

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Well, salam alaikum Welcome to Life.