REVEALS Piers Morgan Strategy, Talks Palestine & Being Famous with Imam Tom Facchine
Channel: Mohammed Hijab
File Size: 45.44MB
Muslims are 2 billion people on the face of the earth. I mean, this is like we're saying that if you don't allow the ceasefire, that it will create a rift and a problem in this society. This was one day we'll follow and see Piers Morgan, I was on top of a big car handles, horses was driving, and I was a bit a little bit worried. And I sat there, I told the guy to it in the car, and I sat there for a bit, and I was scared, actually, a fame and money and power, all three of those things. When I was younger, in fact, I was listening to the data. And then there was one particular notable speaker, and he was very dismissive, and I have to give almost a live on credit. And I recognize it
not just from his own stuff, but from the market. From issues like this. This can make or break Ireland's career as well. Another 100 loves to add some Sula, we are honored to have very esteemed guest Muhammad hijab, who I've had the pleasure of spending the last, what, five days or so with,
not as much time together as I'd like, but hamdulillah enough to, to, to benefit myself, and to appreciate you in a new in a new role. Because sometimes people only see the person who's in front of the people and on the camera. And then when you just like I'm not gonna settle the other one, you don't know someone truly until you travel with them, or you do business with them live next to them. And so on the small way of of traveling together doing our together, you get to see a new dimension of people, and you get to appreciate them even more. So bought a coffee. Ken, thank you so much for joining us.
I don't know whether it's a positive or negative or
a positive. I think it's a positive fe. No, definitely. I mean, we're all human beings at the end of the day. Yeah, I have my more than my fair share of shortcomings, you know, but we see how we fit together. And we have the same goals. Yeah.
So very recently, you're on the Piers Morgan show. In an interview that has gone viral, one of the most viewed of his channel, broke the web, but some people say,
I'm wondering, you know, because when you go into it, you have a plan, and then it happens. And then you have reflections after it. I'm wondering about your reflections about how the interview went, first of all, and then seeing how many pro Palestinian voices were continued to be allowed on the show?
How does this fit into our strategy to change the discourse on Philistine? So I knew from watching Piers Morgan that he had heavy hands and glass jaw,
which kind of to put this in? What I mean by that is that he asks questions, but he's not really good at answering questions. Yes. Obviously, an interviewer or journalist is not really trained really as such as how to answer questions. Yes. So my strategy going in, was to effectively disarm him really quickly, because I knew what everyone knew what the question was going to be there is going to ask about condemnation. And this condemnation, some Muslim people are like, Why did you condemn me? It's a very small number of people. But we actually condemn it because if there's some aspects of people killing civilians, non combatants, the prophets of salaam phobia, it's really as
simple as that. Yeah. And there's no Jamar there's no group or anybody that is above the rulings of Allah subhanaw taala. And there's many Hadith I mean, to that particular effect
on on the VSR, Salama, either, Amara, me, Iran,
I will come across as a lamb that when the Prophet you know, put us in charge of a particular army, that and learn Aktueller Walid and you know that namaste Lola has many Hadees like this, and the woman that got killed, to not to kill a child, I haven't translated not to kill a child not to kill them. So these are there. Obviously, we're not saying that the children will have been killed, of course.
These are things that still have to be verified. So claim, but I'm saying that if that's what was being said here, if that did happen, anytime, anything like that does happen, we condemn it. We have no problem because we have 100 dowry. At the end of the day. People cannot think that as Muslim people, this is what we believe in this dish we, yes. And the shoeless lamb action, right. And the greater macside, right, is that we're trying to make Islam
apparently manifest. We're trying to spread Islam. And so you know, you can't lose it through the weeds. What Islam actually says. Yeah, so I was clear about this actually, to be fair, as Matt, in my love bias is actually not a controversial matter. Yeah. And the other Hadith, for example, as tough on Allah and Bosnian Muslims, when the woman was seen killed, he's an American ally and doctrine.
So if anyone does that, and I'm not just saying that as a lip service, we do genuinely believe that. Yeah. So I came in thinking I will, I've got, do I condemn if this and that happened, and that happened? Yeah. Well, of course we can. Yeah. So we just so my strategy with that was to disarm him very quickly. And then to ask him the same question. So we're gonna play condemnation politics, said he's got heavy hands, but he's got a glass, chin, or glass jaw.
And as soon as he started getting the questions, he started seeing his body language change. And people were not used to seeing Piers Morgan on the backfoot. People were not used to seeing the counter attack people not used to seeing him or hesitating and not answering the question directly being asked questions and that way, I don't think he was used to it, or that he actually had anything like that before. So
after that, I mean, there was lots of things we discussed. But what was clear from this whole thing was that he was incapable he used all the words he wanted to tragic. All this kind of I mourn all this company did not use the word condemn, which lead or lead a lot of people and still lead a lot of people to say, Okay, why is he not condemning Israel for these attacks, and that certain people have made all kinds of videos and analyses on the back of this thing, what actually is connected to Rupert Murdoch, who owns Talksport, I think, is the name of the channel. He owns that organization and Rupert Murdoch is invested in others, Linus causes himself I don't know if he's an open Zionist
He's, of course, member of Jewish community, but not every member of the Jewish community designed this, of course,
some of them anti Zionist, in fact, but yeah, I mean, so people have put things together like that and connected him with with that. And so the reason why he's not speaking out about this matter, even though it's so morally objectionable is because
it's connected, all these kinds of videos have come out.
And this has shown us the importance of social media and the alternative narrative, because if MSM, will the mainstream media, is going to have such a skewed analysis based on the political interests, which many people think this is the case, the political interests of people and how much money they're willing to accept, then we need an alternative and the Muslims have not found that alternative. Mashallah, now, it seemed like and all the commentary, I've heard from you about the interview, it seems like you were very well prepared and very intentional with how he approached the interview. And that's very commendable. I think it was very important. You know, Talal Asad has a
quote about the freedom of speech, a lot of people misunderstand it as just the freedom to say something. But he says there's freedom of speech is irrelevant without the freedom to be heard. Right. And so there needs to be some sort of discursive intervention, stirring up breaking, you know, the status quo in order to create the space to be heard. And it seems like that was an effect of how you approached it, because you really did. You know, we're used to seeing him slither away with sort of, you know, platitudes and lies and culpa me as sort of as not my not my place, not my part, but you really actually did corner him and put him in a position where it looked embarrassing,
that he didn't do the normal bait and switch and, you know, throw his hands up, but then switched to another question. So I think that was that was very effective.
When it comes to the other speakers, you know, we had best music, we had other other people that were on that were Palestinian voices.
I think that what you just said, is very, very key about the alternative media. Someone asked me a question last night, and I'd like to see your response to it. They said, Israel, the nation of Israel, the government and the Zionist sort of, you know, elements of it have been extremely effective in institutional capture, right, infiltrating institutions at a high level, you know,
let's say targeted pressure, lobbying, etc. Why don't we do the same? Okay. And my response was, and I'd like to hear your thoughts about it.
People resent that, you know, if you look, actually now the tide is turning, like you said, with social media, how we've been able to push back and expose these lies, illuminate and put a show a spotlight on these connections and these moneyed interests. And this, these biases, people actually resent it. If you're not actually on the side of truth, if you're just trying to play the game and manipulate and work behind closed doors and capture institutions to use them for your sort of thing. What we're seeing is a much more popular mass uprising of distrust in the mainstream media, trying to find out the truth.
Would you agree with that analysis? First of all, I think it's true that people I mean, there's lots of books written on the Israel lobby. I think John Mearsheimer has a famous book called the Israel lobby. John Michel Messina is like one of the top figures of international relations. And, and they speak about how like the the sort of the Zionist lobby lobby, you know, influences senators and,
you know, members of the House of Representatives and etc, in America and other places in the world, but specifically America. And
that's a strategy that has, to some extent been working according to international relations scholars, there's a difference of opinion as to is this effect, direct or is it not? Is it more exaggerated in our understanding or not? But what's clear to me as I think you alluded to, is that this for us to establish a position or placement like this
with political representatives in America, it will take more than a generation, right? Because you got to look at the apparatus of
like, for example, politics in in the United States of America and the United Kingdom, what kind of political system structures we've got in place, and what it takes to actually influence things to a legislative level. So if, for example, we look at the House of Representatives and the Senate, the Senate, there's two, I mean, the way in the United States works, the legislature is divided into two houses. Now, really, the senators have more pound for pound weight, then House of Representatives now to to not just influence the senators, but to influence the executive branch of government, which, frankly, Senators can have that influence as well, of course, in some of the things that the
executive branch of government, the President will require approval from the Senate and from the House of Representative, it will require what kind of money we're talking about here. We're talking about, it's gonna go, there's gonna cross the maybe the trillion mark, really, just to get our voice heard, and we're competing with a lobby, that's well established, right?
It's an inefficient use of resources. The same thing applies for the United Kingdom, we've got 636,
chairs, or schools, certain chairs or seats in the House of Commons. And then you have what was then called the House of Lords, you've got, once again, two chambers, House of Lords doesn't really have a power. Most MPs don't have power to affect law, especially not law relating to foreign policy decision making, to get to a position where you're going to affect that in here in Canada, where we are, there's 136 seats or 126 seats, I just had a conversation with an MPP. They call them MPs, which will you I'm not sure if you were there or not. I particularly MPP. And, and I was having conversation with her, and they all got party whips, they've all got, you know, this is very
difficult to to influence situation, you need a lot of money, right.
And you need a lot of time, and you need to have a lot of connections, and it's not easy to establish yourself, cut the sale and have a conversation with such and such a person. And it's these things are well established and have been for a very long time.
As you mentioned, therefore, I mean, the strongest and quickest and best, what were our strengths are as Muslim peoples are numbers.
Now Muslims are 2 billion people on the face of the earth. I mean, this is like calling to Pew 25%. Clearly, that's what the strength is. So a mass kind of movement, whether we're using the internet or any other medium protest action, wherever it may be, that's clearly getting the attention of the politicians, it's changing the tone of a journalist is changing the tone of UN representatives. And it's changing the tone of everyone.
US raising awareness to public opinion war, the information war that is clearly where our strength lies, if we think we're going to influence things by trying a strategy effectively, that's not ours. And then number two, which is not even effective, there's no proof of concept for it. I don't think that's the way to go at this stage. Yeah, I agree. And it's interesting to me, one of the reflections I've had is that we're seeing almost a replay of what happened before the escalation in Palestine with the trans lobby, right, because the trans lobby had a very similar institutional capture, they didn't really focus so much on affecting mass and it wasn't a mass movement. Right. It
was something that they tried to get, you know, their folks in think tanks and academia and politicians and school boards, they kind of unilaterally, right, asserted or impose a certain curriculum in the schools and look at how much resentment it resulted in, they almost just like the Zionists, I think, have overplayed their hand. You know, before this was happening. I think the trans movement was overplaying its hand and resulted in a huge black backlash. So I think that yeah, I do agree, I think that we have, if you're doing like a SWOT analysis, right, your strengths and your weaknesses, etc. are I don't think that's strategy aligns with what we've got. And it might
take too long, and there might be some, some undesirable consequences to it. That being said, you know, before I was a Muslim, I was a part of many sort of protest movements and these sorts of things. One of the difficulty, one of the difficulties of this particular moment in time we have momentum, we have a certain toolbox that we're using, okay, we've got we're getting body blows in at this point with yourself and others on major, you know, major platforms. We're also got, you know, a mass movement, pushing back the narrative, we've caused major media organizations to apologize to retract. We've seen the change in language, like you said, even at the State Department of the
United States, they started finally to change the language around where things are going. One of the difficulty of social movements is making a list of demands and figuring out what the end
The game is right, where are we going? Like, I'm interested, your thoughts about this? What are we calling for? How far do we keep pushing? What's realistic? And what should we be asking for? And is there anything else that we're going to have to do in order to get there? Well, the short term is that we're obviously calling for a ceasefire in terms of the attacking of civilians. It's not just on basis of
kind of pleading or something, we're saying that this actually is not in the interest of the Western powers for you to allow the unruly boy, the child, yes, yes, that is called Israel, because that's what it is. It's like, you know, it's a child of
the United States of America and maybe the UK, together, they've come together in one nightstand and produced this unruly bastard. So it's a child. So
they're, the way I see is that they're letting him get to naughty, forgetting him get to let him do whatever you want no accountability, no accountability, you can do what he wants. And the thing is, is that the United States of America knows full well, that this is not in their best interest. How could it be in their best interest when they're trying to stabilize the region, because if by stabilizing it in a certain way, which allows their own hegemony to take place, and for them to have their own basis and their own transactions and non capitalistic interests, this is not going to do, it's not going to help. So by by allowing Muslim people and our people across the Muslim world, to
be outraged by the situation, they're threatening instability in the region, they're threatening potential alliances, that Muslim countries are going to do one on one to do the Russia, for example, as an alternative to America, in order to save face with their populations, which now despise the United States of America, that says the worker doesn't want to see its flags being burned, you know, all across, you know, the United the Middle East, for example, they don't want to see
a rise in anti anti United States sentiment, again, that's not something they want to do.
So it's not in their best interest. We're saying that if you don't allow the ceasefire, that it will create a rift and a problem in this society. And I think the argument needs to be made in a way that doesn't,
that doesn't come across as begging or pleading, it's actually we're appealing to our interests, we're saying this is not in your best interest. For this to continue. We know you don't care about children's death, you can do you can see a million you can I can show you, me and you.
In our own bedrooms, we can watch the videos of the babies, and we can cry, and we can be sad about it. But Joe Biden and Justin Trudeau and Rishi Sunak, they can watch 1000 of those videos and not be affected at all. They're looking at the greater interest of their countries, and the capitalistic interests and so on. So we have to, we have to apply these kinds of logic. So the point I'm making is, we're calling for a ceasefire effectively. And we're seeing that in the short term, if this is not done, then your status as a superpower is actually going to be questionable, right? Just like a mother or a father, your your status as a guardian is going to be questionable. Your son is
overruling you and your home. You're being dominated by your son, who's who's the father, and who's the son. You see, yeah, because the United States of America is it wants to make sure that the rest of the world knows is in charge. Now, of course, we know this in history in the 1956, Suez Canal crisis.
Just a quick one. For those who don't know, 1956 What happened was that, you know, French and the British came into Egypt. And there was a whole crisis relating to a canal called the Suez Canal. And then America wasn't aware of this. And then afterwards it reasserted itself and kind of feel like maybe threatened if you want to say this, France and Britain that, you know, why are you doing this without my permission? Most historians see this as a turning point in life six of the superpower of the superpower status in the United States of America changing Yeah, certainly, along with, let's say, 10 years earlier, the dropping of the atomic bombs on Japan, which was ready to surrender
anyway. And they knew that it was purely to establish, you know, the pecking order assigned to the world because it because you were saying before we're having this conversation, you were saying that they had already said that they intercepted they had intelligence had already intercepted communications from Japan, they were on the brink of surrender, surrendering already, was overcrowded and required to do No, no, not at all. It was just a message to Russia and the rest of the world. This is gonna be the new order. Right? So look, if this is what you want to show the world that you're in charge, you're not looking like you're in charge right now. Yes. Correct. This
is my my direct communication to them. I know they're watching this. So I'm saying to you, you know, and this should be the narrative. Yes, most of them people should carry this over. Yeah. Because especially with right wing, I think this really does affect this makes the entire so called hegemony of the United States of America, the UN, and all these kinds of things appear to be a toothless agency.
Toothless hegemony, because at the end of the day, if you can't control your own unruly child in Israel, and stopping to create an instability in the region, which is going to cost you money, and it's going to cost the American taxpayer money, four times more money is spent on propping up the Israeli army, you're going to spend on food assistance. Yeah. And these are the arguments that need to start being made. Because appealing to Mercy and Compassion has its limitations. Not everyone is merciful, correct. These people are sadistic, these will psychotic, they need to be taught, taught, taught or told or edified that these, these decisions or the lack of ceasefire are going to have
consequences, which are going to be contrary to the Western interests. Yeah, people are selfish. I mean, well, the reason why I'm putting it in this language, of course, for us as Muslims, I have a different parlance, because I know they're going to be sympathetic. So I will use the sympathetic card, but when I'm speaking to Westerners, I will use the the language of self interest. Because if you can't appeal to someone's compassion, you must appeal to their self interest. Yes. And anybody can use, I was just going to say that, I started reading up an op ed and the title of which was, Israel is no longer an ally the US can afford. So anybody who's watching is free to steal that and
just run with it. Because honestly, reading into your papers, papers, or traditional media, most people using them are very, very indoctrinated by a mainstream media sort of Zionist, you know, account of how things are going. But it's a convincing argument and one that needs to be made. We should have people Yeah, is that Muslims? who create accounts with non Muslim names like Tom, Tom or something like yourself? Ricky or something? And infiltrate, right wing? comment sections. So we go, and these talking points about it being America first. America first. You suggested this. Yeah, there's a really fantastic, yeah, I collect them. When I see them. I'm like, Oh, that's really
interesting. So really usage. I don't know, I'm saying as if this is my idea. This is your
wisdom, wisdom is lost.
Yeah, so this is I think it's a fantastic idea, bro. No, these discursive avenues are really important, because it is all about motivating people, the end of the day, and like you said,
there's a weakness and a lack of dignity in pleading to be recognized by butchers. Exactly, you know. And now, if somebody has those stated principles, then maybe that's the person that's that's how you appeal. But, you know, we can't be we can't be cowards. And we also can't naive. Yes, and this is the real world. You know, these are bombs and guns and weapons, and people are dying. Right? Yeah. So the objective is ceasefire. The method is the internet and social media, and the specific techniques or the tactics here. So we're outlining it, we're delineating everything for the troops, the comrades, that some people are going to come with non Muslim names, infiltrate right wing
places, and make these arguments, which is why we're going to spend our money. Yeah, $13.1 million a day, I believe, why should we spend this money on this? Why should we do that?
This is not in the American interest. It's not an English interest to say, the British nationalist or right wing. It's not in the French interest, or whatever it may be, and so on and so forth. So that's one angle. For the left wing, I think there needs to be a completely different kind of approach. And for them, it's once again, the objectives are the same, the ceasefire objective in the short term, but for them, the they are
terrified of being labeled as racist. Yes. So to connect the State of Israel with racism, which is easy, because in 1973, they, they had something called the apartheid convention. Okay, which un apartheid convention, and they had eight conditions for what classifies as an apartheid think one of them was laws, which are discriminatory, the right of return law and Israel, is, it's actually discriminatory to everyone else, except for Jews. So there's only Jews can come back. Now, according to the 1973 definition of the UN, that that makes Israel
that makes Israel into an apartheid state. If that's what the case is, if Israel is an apartheid state, then the question is, how can you support apartheid or not neglect it? Let's say how can you support it without being a racist? How can you not negate it without being an anti racist? So if they're sitting on the fence, if they're supporting Israel, of course, left winds, Link wingers don't actually do that. Usually, for the sake of argument, then you can label them with racism, right? Or at least show them why they're going into the direction of real, they are racist. And if they don't want to condemn it, then make the comparison between apartheid Israel and South Africa.
And explain to them why that would make them a racist as well. So the point is, play on the sentiments when it comes to left wing in terms of tactics and strategies, which relate to racism and labeling. And if you can, you know, influence them directly, then to do that. So we're talking about different strategies for different segments of society. So the right wing, we have this
The interest self interest in taxes and what are we doing with our money and this is, this is going to be something effective for them. For the left wing, it's something more like you're racist. You don't want to be labeled as a racist, you do not want to be the person who, for example, stood up against apartheid. What would your grandchild think? Sure, if they were if they were alive, and they knew that you didn't speak up against apartheid? Where would you have been if you were in South Africa, in apartheid system, and so on? So different arguments for different segments, we can't afford to always appeal to Mercy. Yes, although that is a third area, because there's a lot of
people who are great good people in the West. I'm not saying the West is bereft of anybody, anybody who's who's got some pathetic attitudes. But it's been our only tool that we've been using. You can't build a house with just a hammer. Yeah. So it has to be a multifaceted, tactical and strategic online. Approach. There needs to be some people who do this, that are listening to this thing right now, some people who do that, and other people who just use the simply show the sympathy that the actual child coming out of the rubble, a lot of people, you know, in the West are gonna think this is disgusting. Yeah. So part of the sacrifice, and a lot of people are under pressure from Zionist
groups Daxing them, right, trying to get them fired from their job was trying to get them, you know, pressured in some sort of way. And up until now, we haven't had any ability to fight back on this front. But it seems that you've done something recently, you've started an initiative that's actually going to push back in the other direction. Would you like to speak to that a little bit? Yes, we have started that initiative where anyone the West English speaking West, who's been attacked by a person institution or, you know, a group of people. Obviously, this is a legal initiative is not an illegal one. So not a threat to anyone's life or health or anything like that,
where the person who feels threatened or feels as if they've been harassed can send their case to that email. And we will name and shame these individuals and put them on a website, where they can be named and shamed as Zionist propagandist as anti piracy, maybe even racist, depending on how we brand them based on the evidence. And it would be good if the people in question have a picture of the person so it can name and actually shame them by face save screenshots say that, yes. And so this is part of the fight back in this in this digital war. And in fact, we will leave an email to be put in maybe in the description box where they can put they can submit their, for example, their
harassments fantastic, another tool in the toolbox. So absolutely. Okay, well, I'd like to pivot a little bit to, to another thing part of this, you know, watching that particular clip, and so many people have benefited from it, and being around each other for a bit. Mashallah, you've got an enormous platform. Okay. One could say, you know, quite a bit of fame.
So, how do we deal with that? How do you as an individual deal with fame? What are the things that the strategies that you use, because part of part of our sustainability in online Dawa is making sure that our intentions are pure, and that we stay away from, you know, any sort of corruption of our intentions? So if there's somebody who's a future you, right, that's watching this,
and they're starting to get involved? For me, I'll be frank 911, was the thing that actually set me off on the path towards accepting Islam. It was such a monumental thing that happened, the United States started getting me questioning things, I looked into things. I have no doubt that this escalation and Philistine is going to be the thing that sparks many conversions. It already has. Yeah. And it's going to spark many Muslims to wake up if they haven't been paying attention. Maybe people are going to get inspired to go study. And maybe people are going to get inspired to go do Dawa. Okay. And as somebody who's who is walking the path and has walked the path, and imagine
you're mentoring somebody who's up and coming,
how do you coach them to deal with the fame to deal with distractions to stay focused, and to have the biggest impact possible?
fame and money, and power, all three of those things. And maybe you can add the opposite gender as well. But for in our case, women, right. But more specifically, they should say fame, money and power for the sake of argument just for now, are things which you can't really deal with in abstraction.
It's like asking the question, how do you learn how to swim, you can't learn how to swim unless you get in the water. Sure. So fame is one of those things which, in order to really know how to deal with it, you have to experience it and then develop your own mechanisms of dealing with it. Okay. visa vie, let's say the spiritual aspects of visa vie, the psychological aspect. If you get somebody who's not famous and not rich or doesn't have any money, or has was low economic status to say for example, one of the worst things you can do for those people, is give them that all in one
and we see this with people who get like win the lottery for example, right? Sure it can it can really damage their lives because they don't know what they're doing with it. They don't know how to spend it. They don't know what to do. And then they can fall into depression afterwards. Even professional athletes, some of them are very rags to riches stories, yeah. And then they end up with nothing. They end up homeless on the street because they didn't they went from all from zero to nothing to zero to 100 very quickly. That's why Allah says in the Quran well obasa Allah who risk will whether was at Allah who risk Kali i by de la hopefully love the word I can unit Zilla will be
a codon. May I share that if Allah had wanted to get to
a to give people provisions or if he gave them provisions all at one goal. They would have walked around arrogantly and boastfully
pompously on the earth. But Allah He gives Muna zero because in Maya, he gives bit by bit, he gives a bit by bit, he gives the provision in piecemeal format.
This shows you that
fame, how do you deal with it, you learn to deal with it as it comes, I didn't like now more go million subscribers and hundreds of millions, if not, maybe at least half a billion people. I've seen what I look like maybe right on the planet,
on the internet, in all languages. And
if this doesn't happen overnight, it's happened over a span of 10 years, or about nine years. So Allah, He blessed me with being able to deal with it bit by bit.
And so I was able to develop mechanisms. I see. So give us an example. Like, what are some of the mechanisms that you use to deal with it? Yeah. So in terms of interaction with people, I've realized that you have to give each person their time. And you have to respect them, like people have met me. Yeah, none of them will say that I have ever I've never like,
I've never told someone to go away. Right.
And that's, that's actually been to my detriment, because there's been times I've stood literally for two to three hours. And just take pictures of everyone shake everyone's hand and listen to every single person. Yeah, sure. But the reason why I didn't, I'd never turn anyone away, ever. And it's never happened to me. And it's a policy unless I'm literally going somewhere with my family. Sure, of course. And I have to say, you know, I'll try and be as nice as possible, is because I realized that I am representing Islam, and if they connect me with bad attitude, that tragic that traumatic experience can make them actually swerve away from the religion of Islam. Sure, absolutely. When I
was younger, in fact, I was listening to the data. And then there was one particular notable speaker, who I went to say hello to outside of a mosque. And he was very, he was very dismissive. That was the word I'll use, he was just dismissive. And that really put, it really hurt me to be honest. Because I met that speaker when I became, quote, unquote, famous. And he doesn't remember me.
He doesn't remember me. But he's been so welcoming. But the point is, why you being different with me? Just because my status has changed? I find that cowardly. Yeah, you know, the story of Joe Ha, and, and the robe, or the story, please say hi to the people. Yes, because it's a funny little anecdote and a nice illustration and fable form, where Joe Ha, was working in the fields, okay. And he's dirty, and he's got his, you know, his not his nicest clothes on. And he heard that there's some sort of party going on, okay, that he was invited to. So he rushes, so he's on time, and he shows up in his clothes, but he's not in his best form. Everybody ignores him. Nobody says anything
to him. So then he goes back, and he cleaned himself up and goes to his house, cleaned himself up, gets his finest clothes on perfumes himself goes back to the party, everybody's falling over themselves to pay him attention and things like that. So he's sitting down at the dinner table, and he starts putting the food inside of his sleeves.
And people are staring at him, because it's very odd behavior. And then he says, He tells them basically, essentially, I'm doing that because apparently, you didn't invite me to the party, you invited my clothes,
that they're only treating him for his status. And so as a common thing, now, just finally, but that's a lovely story. It's a lovely story. And that is what is, people look at them, this is the same thing. So I try not to be like this. I hate that. Actually. I hate that behavior. I find that to be a cowardly behavior, disrespectful behavior.
that's one thing that's how I deal with it. So that's actually one of my good friends.
One of my one of my best friends and closest friends actually is somebody's brother. Now shall we put him William that's not his actual name, but I suppose, but once I was in the streets, and I was being almost dismissive, and he said, Look, you know, you've got to be much, much more kind to the people and so when he when he
I realized that I changed my ways and became very, very accommodating. So that's one way that we're talking here about transactional how you act with people, but spiritually, in terms of fame.
Do you know like, for example, literally one, this is a good idea. You have to kind of, because you can get diluted, of course, this is there's something called psychology of delusion.
First of all, to be aware that you can be diluted, right? Okay. And you can be diluted. And there is a psychology of delusion. If you ever watched X Factor, or Britain's Got Talent, or something, you've seen this time singing, and they think they're so good at their money. And then Simon Cowell comes, and then he says, Do you know you're horribly shocked and all this kind of thing. Now, what I mean is, I know that if I get reinforcement, positive affirmation from a lot of people that can lead to delusion, I know that this is the map that logically understand that. Okay, so is it possible that I could be an echo chamber and that can delude me? Yes, it is. So how do I temper the delusion
through criticism? Right? I, you know, I look at what people say criticize, or whatever, or listen to criticism of people. And they actually tempers it and it makes you think, Okay, well, this is an over exaggeration. And this is not an exaggeration. So you start to get kind of like a middle ground approach. So just to know that you have to be aware not to be diluted, because money and fame and these kinds of things can delude you.
I know that I know that very well that I you know, that I can be deluded. And so I try and be around people who tell me that these these are things that you need to work on spiritually as well. Being alone.
Like, we went to Saskatoon, but we went outside in the village, the village was that it's the most derelict place I've ever been in my entire life. And I sat there, I told the guy to get in the car, and I sat there for a bit. And I was scared. Actually, I say, if I get a heart attack, no one's gonna see me. No one's gonna know anything. Anything happens to me. Because I there was no noise. There is no acid a farmer driving this car. It was a farmer psychoses guy. What's he doing there? How could you live here? How could anyone live here? You know?
So going out to a political Regina. Okay, I've heard of it. Sounds like very dirty word. But it's not.
It's not there's no, I think it's called Regina. Yeah.
Anyway, so we'll go in. And I was sitting in, and I was thinking Subhanallah, like, you know, I mean, wow. Like this is I was actually having a spiritual moment.
I was while I was thinking, What am I, when I remove everyone else from the equation and move millions of people commenting, remove family, remove friends, remove everything, and all I have is Allah. And I look into the creation, what am I I'm quite insignificant.
Yeah, literally insignificant. So when you start looking at big things, like mountains and big, huge things, and then I actually, I came to Canada via Iceland.
And I went to a volcano, like a place where the volcanoes, and I kept looking at the volcanoes, again, I'm very insignificant and very insignificant. And so when you realize your own significance, and you realize your own significance to the grandiosity of the creation of Allah,
that tempers the fame thing. He really does. So these are just two things, I would say. Excellent. Very beneficial. Thank you for sharing that.
Some people are going to see this and they're going to be surprised that we're sharing the same platform. Really? I think so. Because, you know, I work with the Athena Institute, near with Sapiens, you know, there's been,
there's drama in the data sphere sometimes. Right? Is that something that's that so your reaction, I like to you to expand on that? So it's not a surprise to you? I want to I want to acknowledge something before and I was sharing the stage with a lot of European guys. Yeah. And it's not a surprise for me, either. But for some people who follow your work, or my work, or both, right, it's a surprise for that. What does that say? I don't know. I think you'd be surprised that it's not really a surprise. So those who are surprised a few fair and fewer number.
I think most people see us is like pretty like from what I understand you your stances are very similar to from my my interactions with you are similar to each other. So I don't see any surprise at all. Like I don't you know, the only thing that is like how did you guys get to meet like, you know, where did it but in terms of the institutions and stuff like that and yucky and honest there's not a teams like Manchester United or that's that's what I think some people fall on to if Hamza sources came tomorrow and said that we're going to change the name of Sapiens to ask them what their jobs is.
Situ as it shouldn't be called
resources in situ or something like that work changes over like yeah, we don't really care what the name is Danny and in here in less mountain some meter more balcom? Yeah, these are just names that you and your father's named Yanni so it's about the dollar. Exactly. It's about whatever conduit you want to use. And yeah, clean has good things in it and bad thing. Kulu in sending you, Holloman voylla dwelley That's my stance, yes, like, you know.
So Malik mantasy said that every human being is you're the one who can take something from your data, and it's refuted it less. I haven't had a cup. And you can do class on that. Collegium Athens, Ohio. Valley has same thing. Every group of people, there's some good and some bad. So. Now I completely agree. And I think I think it's an important education for hopefully their field. But if there are people who have this sort of Yeah, city versus United.
It's not like that attitude or whatever it is.
Completely our business, I mean, if we
jokey, but it's good. I mean, I think that I do think that we give people an education, when they see us collaborating, and then they see that we're not exactly the same. But we overlap significantly, we both have the same goals. They both have the same
stuff. I mean, like, if you somehow who the leaders, if they decide to open up a conversation on this,
and it doesn't matter, it's really as a group is only as good as individual units as true members as true. And in this case, you know, there's really good members and a pain really good members and other places, any whatever you can use, even if you just decide I'm not going to be part of, say a organization. Yeah, but I'm going to work with people. Yeah, don't, I'm not even going to name anything. I don't know, tell us what I would just do our simple as that. But I'm gonna work with these couple of guys. It says we don't have a name, we don't have a slogan that we're carrying. We're just doing it under Islam. That's what we're trying to do. Do you think there's something that
in the future that Sapiens antiochene Could you could do together? Well, the good thing about not being the CEO of the leader is that last make decisions.
That's it I'm gonna take that because you know, hamdulillah but I mean, we've got a very good leader actually has a dream recently about about the leadership of handles also had the dream about it. And I actually wasn't exactly but it was the only a car that was driving in the water and it was floating on top of it and I was on top of the car. And this was one day before our seas it pulls Piers Morgan Subhanallah Allah had the dream that I was on top of a big car handles also this was driving it and I was a bit a little bit worried because I thought he was gonna go like drowning in the water because cargoes into water. But it flooded like a miracle on top of the water and I was on
top of the car. And then afterwards you came out this is my dream, and then we came out of the place and then we saw like a bus with people burning in the on the inside of it. And we were getting them out of the bus, basically. Aloha. So I asked somebody so what does this mean? He said that you've got this as a good as a good dream. And it means that you know, you've got good leadership, mashallah and say business, and that the you know, you're bringing people out the hellfire and all this kind of stuff. And it's,
I think that's, that's what it is. At the end of the day, I'm very happy with just following orders. When it comes to things like this, you know, yeah, Mashallah. And Hamza is a lovely person, I really connected with him while we were both in Istanbul together, and we met and I got him the promise to join your teen Institute, after if I published an article on feminism. Well, you're gonna join, we're saying Bismillah he is he said.
But I told him about what I'm working on in my next. My next upcoming thing in sha Allah is a thorough academic deconstruction and feminism. Okay? And when you look over Sapiens thing, right, maybe there's an overlap there was anything about feminism as it it has one, but it needs to be updated and only Pro.
Sure, you can be sure that the forthcoming one will not be so. So you know, he was he was joking, of course, but I have to hold him to it just for jokes. Yeah. He said, If that happens, and when that happens is Allah he's like, I will join I have to give almost 11 credit for his very brave and courageous stances in the pro Palestinian cause. Being a Palestinian himself. I'm very proud of his his reach. He's been a key figure as well in the end in actually promoting you know, the pro Palestinian position. I'm very proud of that of that. And the American diet. Actually, the Compassionate Imams
have been good when it comes to that.
You have to be careful hanging out too much with us. You're gonna catch the compassionate bug as well.
No, honestly, I
give him credit where credit is due. Yeah, of course, of course. And all of us, you know, as you said, All of us are on the, under the magnifying glass. That's fine. We all have mistakes, we all have shortcomings. And so we all have to do myself, you know, especially myself. But that does bring us full circle to something, you know, how would you respond to, let's say, diets or Imams that they're not really in the game when it comes to taking issues on Palestine or taking issue taking stances on these things? And helping is can we afford? Silence? Can Can we afford people to I think this is not on this issue. Nor on this issue. Really, I just can't I just can't see how anyone can.
You know, I mean, there's no justification of this and actually is Ireland, I recognize Ireland, not just from his island or its taqwa, but from the Malacca, from issues like this. This can make or break Ireland's career, you can have all down in the world, you could have gone to alcohol for 50 years, and and this and that, and have all these students, but if you don't take a stance on this issue, or if you take a negative stance on an issue like this, I'm willing to throw all of that away. And I want you to respond to a criticism of that stance. So some people will say, for example, that well, we don't exist, as are the mat to please the masses, or the trolls or the haters. That's
a narrative out there. So how would you respond them to that? Yes, that's, we exist to speak the truth, and to and to manifest it. But if you can't, I'll who's a coward? Yes, for example, or alum who is not willing? Because if you're not willing to take a stance at all, there must be a stance. I mean, what is what is going on? Is it neutral? Is it negative as a positive? What is it if you say it's positive? Maybe you're working with enemy? Maybe you're a Zionist? Maybe your real name is something come in.
compromised? You're compromised in some way professionally. Yeah. You're on their payroll or something. Yeah, maybe. But if you take it now, and you're in neutral stuff, so negative stance is out of the question of positive stance is what we want, and neutral stances. But there must be a stance, yes. So why are you not saying your stance, then? Why are you keeping silent? If you're there's a lot of sorry to say modalities that have actually, some of them being related. One recently, actually, I saw a video of one particular metabolites in in Speaker's Corner, being being pressured by, by brother Daniel. Yeah. And it was very humiliating actually, how he was, he was he
was arguing this Melka like, for normalization. He was arguing for it. He was arguing for who? And everyone in the crowd. It was yesterday, right. And this guy's been established in the corner for years. Hamdulillah you know, and one more masala humiliated him finished him. Yeah. It seems to me like, like a fallacy to say that just because the masses of Muslim support a particular stance means that therefore you're above the fray. And you don't have to and this would be satisfied the truth? I don't see that as sound logic, though. There might be situations where that applies. I don't think that applies in this scenario. In fact, I think it showed that the moral compass of the OMA at least
on Philistine is still intact in a live meeting, right? And it really is, as you said, I think a demonstration rather of character. What we're saying, I think, is that the ultimate are not just the knowledge that you can write down at the at arm's length, although I will give them some excuse. If they're in a country where they cannot say anything. Oh, of course. Yeah. That's different. Like if they if they can, if they see something, go to prison. I give them either for that. Sure. But if you give them some other otherwise, to be honest, I don't give them any excuse. In fact, this is where we need leadership. Because if we don't, then we cede the leadership to somebody else. And I think
one thing that we've seen is that particularly with the Palestinian issue, that, you know, the leadership of that movement has been ceded to secularists to nationalists and leftists and things like that, to our own detriment, right to our own detriment. So it's a time for bravery. And it's a time for sacrifice and it's the time to step up and fill the vacuum and lead.
So we all work together to that. So may Allah bless you follow your dial and may Allah accept from you and from us and look forward to continue our conversations. Thank you so much.