Mh Podcast #9 – Linda Sarsour, Omar Suleiman & American Muslim Activism – Ali Dawah & Dilly Hussain

Mohammed Hijab


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Job 10 discount code for 10% discount on a wide range of products including premium Ethiopian black seed products. salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah what I care to all and welcome to the m h podcast. This is the 10th episode and I'm joined with two very, very special guests. To the far right, we have Delia Hussain, the chief vice president or the chief editor, big Titans deputy editor, deputy editor of five pillars. And in the middle is the one and only

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the youth our king.

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He's standing behind the camera.

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How are you?

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I think i think i think it's our first video in maybe, maybe, yeah, really? Yeah, I think I think we do a lot of videos. I'm sure don't talk.

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I'm really I'm actually really happy to be because I haven't seen any

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of the customer. Yeah. And that gave me a nice, nice, special hot, hot.

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Last time I saw he was at the PUC. Yes. Right. So it wasn't just a craft, when you said far, right. It's not telling us.

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But we are gonna be speaking about politics. And we are gonna be speaking about the political spectrum. We are indeed. So let's dive straight into the discussion really. And

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obviously, there's a lot of controversy in Muslim Tao circles now.

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Particularly because of this, this question of activism. Yeah. And I think it's fair to say that in Muslim circles, the UK approach is a little bit different to the US approach. Yeah. Can you outline what you see as the main differences between the two, but similar manubrium al hamdu Lillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah. Basically what is such a vast topic, right? But it goes without say, an older do arts and Islamic activists who have been in the scene since the 90s. Even 80s know that the UK is the hub of Islamic activism and dow so you know, you're gonna go into patriotism No, no, it's not.

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The least one wanted to get into a bit of a downer. Yeah, but the point here is the UK has always been the hub and the central point of various Islamic movements and groups. And there's various reasons as to why the activism and the Dow and by the way, the reason why used to together because I think in from an Islamic standpoint, these two are interchangeable, that is activism maximises, though I think they're intertwined. And the reason why that is, is because the community, the Muslim communities in the UK, are more established, they've been here much longer, and their relationship with the establishment is more well thought out, you understand. Whereas in the US and North

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America, broadly speaking, it's a newer diaspora community with exception to the African American Muslims who were the first Muslims from the times of slavery. In the last 10 1520 years, there's been various challenges various, whilst we've got wars, oppression and occupation, the Muslim world in the West, we've got things like contracts, movies and violence laws, TV laws, Islamophobia, a massive, well funded reformist agenda to change aspects of normative Islam, and a huge push to normalize pro LGBT values and lifestyle within the Muslim communities. Right. And here you find of late at least, that there is a distinct difference between how Muslim Dalton activists and groups in

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the UK have dealt with these challenges and how it's been dealt with in North America, Muslims in UK Dawson,

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things haven't got that bad yet. We haven't got that bad yet. But but just to just wrap up from this point here, is that the challenges are pretty much the same, they might be at different levels. And whilst we're not we're not making sweeping generalizations, there's glaringly obvious trends in which the way the Brits have dealt with these similar issues and the way the Americans have and we can touch upon this later on the show before we do that, speaking to really, you can call yourself an activist after the kind of work you've done with the far right, especially in the day of freedom, mantra freedom. Do you remember that? What do you ever saw I got punched up.

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you know, while I was chested on the side

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for my life

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while he was using pictures of police around in Union what's up

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the time when you ran away

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the big boy Yeah, that's what my legs

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so So what are some of the challenges you've you've dealt with? Yeah. And UK activism. Yeah, so bear with me. It's obviously it's been like the absolute far right. And also like non Muslim that marginalized as well, which I've pulled in, you know, let's make that clear. And yeah, I did. You

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You know, I personally I don't I didn't believe that I was the right person to do it. But I saw no one else doing it. And I felt very like I was I was looking and seeing like them in Britain first picking on Muslims who are walking back Myskina they don't know much and being picked on and bullied. And you seen Tommy Robinson insulting the Prophet over and over again. It just really like infuriated me, you know? And that's why no, like, I think if I'm mistaken, like, you had some criticism of me doing that bit like I was, it was come from a good place. It brought me feedback. Exactly. So believe me, it was explained us and probably like, this is how I feel, you know, when

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I'm seeing this happen in front of my eyes. And not many people are doing anything. I'm not saying this people more qualified to do it. But me I'm a more hands on guy. Yeah. Like, I'm just like, Did you get I'm just like, I don't care. And at six months old Chuck and Tommy Robinson that I was, I was tracking where his flights are coming. I was in Luton Airport waiting for him once and he ended up going to, I think Stanford or something. So I wanted them to feel that fear in their heart. I want them to know, that that were on their case, you know, and I deal with them and you know, like, there's lessons that I've learned from it hamdulillah but all in all, inshallah it's it's improved

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in the spectrum in the context of there was a lot of people in the far right will come and be like, okay, you know, what, you change your mind about this, or etc, you know, so it was good. But yeah, like, you know, I did an under that I do, like, I don't have absolute regrets. But there's things I could have done better things I could learn. But all in all, inshallah, it was a benefit well accepted. I mean, I think it's important to also add that, you know, activism is such a broad spectrum, there's so many things you can think of is just a protest. It's not, it's confronting islamophobes and anti muslim bigots, is lobbying versus MPs or think tanks, is dealing with even the

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opponents of Islam or Muslims on a grassroots level to those in the echelons of power. Remember, you, you said to me, and rejects is no one Douglas is no one. And I said, by hijab, their followers in the views might not be many, but they're the ones that get in the nose for government. So Muslims in different aspects of their professions, they are dealing and doing activism, whether knowingly or unknowingly with different parts of our many challenges. Yeah, it's not just protest. There's so many things, there's lobbying, there's, there's court cases, what the enemy is now called lawfare. The Muslims are now engaged in warfare, right? So activism is such a broad spectrum, and everyone's

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got a part to play in it. You guys have a huge role to play in it in the realm of YouTube and online, no one, no one else is really doing it. If there wasn't a hijab, and Ali, although I've never said this on camera before we used to, and I was one day, who would keep the likes of, you know, our mission is in check. We're not, and how you guys gonna keep the likes Douglas Murray, and the Institute of strategic dialogue and these kind of people in checks. We need everyone in every level to be dealing with this. I do feel like, there are some people who have never responded to me like, I've done a video on Ben Shapiro, for example. But I know that they're acutely aware of those

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videos. And I know many of them are not speaking about Islam, because they know that it would be

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a perfect opportunity for people like me to just be on their case. And it's the same thing with you, I know that not many people that would be coming out of the Woodworks. Now, if we didn't use what you could call a confrontational approach. But talking about different approaches, I think the confrontational approach is something we have used, and we feel like it's been successful. I want to mention one thing that on a law on legislation level, that was quite big in the news, which is last year 2019. With the Arecibo, yes. And the protests that were taking place in Birmingham, namely and elsewhere in the northern Middle East. Yeah. What How would you gauge the success of these Muslim

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protests outside of schools to try and stop sex education and or LGBT learning going on, which halted

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learning all these lessons in particular for a very long time and prompted a national conversation? Was you actually part way? Yeah, I was I was indeed and the piers morgan, it was yesterday. So the relationship says that education bill wasn't passed last March. And it came to effect this month. So that means in, in primary or secondary schools in England, it is compulsory now or responsibility for them to now teach, same sex relationship and curriculums are basically kind of normalize these things up. I mean, my brother Yusuf Patel, who was involved in all this, and I'm gonna talk to me calling contact, I'm gonna do not podcast my interview with him because he did one with a Christian

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guy. And he said, there was some things that are not so he can, quote unquote, dumb and you can keep an eye out for that. So So what basically happens around a couple of 100 Muslim parents in Birmingham when they got a whiff of what's being taught, without consultation, yes, they will do their children from going to school and they protested peacefully within the framework of the law outside the school basically saying that you cannot be teaching our children these kind of things that you know, in man can come into school and identifies Amina and I'm in Oklahoma school identifies the law, this is not going to happen, that you can absolutely be gay or Muslim, meaning

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they're teaching these things not more morally neutral point of view. So yeah, and this is kind of a straw man where people say, Oh, well, we teach religious studies, religious studies taught Memorial

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neutral point of view, whereas this was not. But the greater point here is that Muslim parents deemed it worrying and alarming enough to protest peacefully and withdrew their children. And that sparked a national discussion from the government to, you know, the main TV shows and news channels and everything. And they were labeled homophobic, fundamentalist, extremist intolerant, but that did not stop them. And you know what else though? I want to add, I was just looking at some of those videos and they're, they're freely available on the internet now, like, on Sky News, YouTube channel. I was looking at the comments underneath and actually there was a lot of people

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in support of Muslims from the Christian community light.

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Jewish when there's a rabbi there so often my showdown with with Piers Morgan, I had overwhelming support you can see online, yes, you can. Yes, on Jimmy. And by the way, they cut six minutes from that they didn't upload the full thing. But

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the overwhelming support from Christians especially said our leaders no longer have a backbone backbone. We are a spineless community. Many Christians conveyed this to me that we have already succumbed to this centuries ago, we understand. Whereas you guys are representing you making us proud, our Abrahamic Brethren, etc. You know, there was a lot of support from the Jewish communities. That was one of the most commented things. So so so you know, but the point to take away from this is that the parents were resilient. Yeah, they did not buckle under pressure. They were labeled. Justin parents was $1 man as well.

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They had a lot of scholarly support. 100 there was 120. Aloma who signed a signed statement, which you can see in five pillars, and it's been published elsewhere, where they were they criticized the rec bill from a legal and a moral point of view. And just to add to that, seven years ago, when the same sex marriage bill went from in 2013 500, Alana, Sunni and even she, right, Salafi bravi, Deobandi, Juana, you name it, all groups, 500, scholars issued a statement, saying that we are against the same sex marriage bill, the bill still went through, but a statement and a stance and a precedent was set, that this is not something that we're willing to accept wholeheartedly, and

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you're not going to get the full support of the community, especially not from the religious figures. And when you compare that now to the US, where their freedom of speech laws are far more laxed, exactly. You can get away with saying a lot more and doing a lot. We went to a campus Christian Shelton, you're going home, I've never seen anybody, you go to the fire, and you go, well, that'll be good.

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And there's a far stronger Christian conservative constituency in the US. So sometimes when we see things in the US, right, I think

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we've got tighter freedom expression, Lucien free speech was our hate speech rules are very, very tight. In America, you can get away with saying a lot, as well as packing guns as well, let's remember, this is a cowboy country, the Muslims could strategically if they want to do could look at alternative alliances, in terms of fulfilling single issue stuff like the RSC bill and you know, LGBT issues. But as we're going to discuss later on, this whole kind of blind allegiance to the left, the progressive left is dangerous. And we already started to see the fruits of it. And talking about this, let's talk about that. I think, case study, one we should talk about, is a prominent

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figure in America called Linda sarsour. Yes, who I think is a Palestinian nationalist, or she at least has Palestinian allegiances, which of course, is very good thing. She believes in rights for the Palestinians, etc. But what I've understood from her from her rhetoric really is that she's totally subsumed into this ideology of the left, totally absorbed into it, and categorically almost unreservedly right?

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talks about, you know, given LGBT rights, but not only that, it seems like and this needs to be corrected and asked, I mean, this is a point of question here.

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Is she morally in favor of this behavior? In other words, does she deem it as morally acceptable? This is a question I still don't know the answer to, to for same sex behavior between two people, and also an abortion. And what I find really, to be honest with you disturbing is that the acquiescence of the clerics in America to this and even to some degree the support of some of these clerics. On what basis is that justifiable in Islam? On what basis? Is this okay? And what benefit is this giving us as the Muslim community in the US?

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I think

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so, look, for those of you don't know who sister Linda sarsour is, she's an American Palestinian activist from Brooklyn, from New York, very prominent came into huge prominence, I think, couple of years ago in the million Women's March outside Washington, DC when you're not against Trump and some of the comments he made against women etc.

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And there's various interviews and statements of her

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where she's, you know, conveyed? Clear an Islamic position any coffee? Without shadow of a doubt whether or not calling her a cafe I always say that the statements she has made is without a shadow of a doubt goes beyond the voice, which ones like for example?

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I'll be honest, I don't know. Okay, so

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tell me about I don't know. Okay, so for my understanding, I believe she's of the position of unrestricted right of women to abort as and when they wish. All right, let me read out exactly what she says. Yeah.

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In minute 10, okay, make sure it's a

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minute 10 second five, right in her interview when she was actually with us and Hadi and Maddie Hasson and she says gay rights and Islamic rights are part of the same struggle, she agreed to this point. So this I want to understand from her, does she mean to say that she believes that gay rights or that homosexual behavior? On a fundamental level? Is it okay? I think what she's saying here, and this is a very common strand of thinking within the left, the progressive left is intersectionality. And it will intersectional politics, which is basically there are certain oppressed groups and discriminate groups in society. So it's usually class, but obviously, its roots is it within

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Marxism? So it's class, gender, sexuality, yeah. Now race, to say that all these kind of different groups are all within a part of a greater struggle against the establishment, and therefore, Islamic rights, or that the rights of the Muslim community is on par with the LGBT rights because we're both discriminated communities. So it makes more muscle or her point of view, strategically wise to ally with the LGBT, and even Black Lives Matter and others, right, because we are all discriminated minorities. I just comment on this because I've actually written a book on intersectionality. It's called a feminist martial law. That's right. And this book is available for you to buy. And actually

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what this book was a collection of maybe five or six essays I'd done when I was in it, the Gender Studies Department of size. And they all got distinctions, actually high level distinctions. If

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anyone says, What do I What do we what do we know? About intersectional?

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Anyway, look, this, this was, I think, first introduced by Kimberly Crenshaw, right? In maybe the 80s, or the 90s. Right? And, like you've just said, So women, women in feminism, it doesn't have to be women, because obviously, trans comes into it. And this is part of the wider kind of queer theory, have different identifiers. So it's not just not she's not just a woman, she's a woman. She's a black woman. She's, you know, she could work in class. So class gain gets in. The problem here that I have with this is that the hierarchize ation of these identifies is usually left to Western people. So in other words, why is it that womanhood number one is more important than For

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example, let's say for the sake of argument, tribe, because if you go to Africa, right, a woman's tribe might be more important to her than her, quote, unquote, gender, obviously, the word gender is extremely fluid in these discourses, right? And the same thing might be said with religion, right. But what I'm arguing is, if we have a community of women, who may I'm not saying we'll we'll do right may identify Firstly, as being religious. And then after that, as anything else, so the hierarchize ation is left to her. Right. From an intersectional perspective, and this is the argument I make in the book, right? From an intersectional perspective is not that Islam should be

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subordinate, in that sense, to intersectional feminist thought, it's a fact intersectional feminist thought, which has to take on board the full nature of the Islamic character of such person, no, no one shoe fits all. No, what I'm saying is this is that if the we can use the intersectional, if the intersectional approach is used with a community, like the Muslim community, for example, and they decide to hierarchize, their own identifiers such that religion comes prioritized, which they should be if, if, of course, autonomy is afforded to them. And from a feminist perspective, that should be the case. If they, if they prioritize their religious character, then that would suggest that at

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least, that is slam or let's say, the religious character, whatever it may be, that they believe in even conservative Islam, even ideas, by the way, which might be, which might be patriarchal, in second wave senses, because remember, this whole intersectional thing is moving on to third wave feminism. It's no longer second wave, do you know it's no longer the patriarchal societies, we've gone way deeper into the discourse in that. So what I'm saying is, really, if we were to use an intersectional intersectional approach, on an intellectual level, what we can actually establish is women

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who are Muslim or people that are Muslim doesn't have to be women necessarily, because of course, gender is not necessarily confined to women. So femininity, if at all, to anything like that, if they exist on this on this paradigm. And

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once again, if they if they

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Identify firstly as Muslim, that should be the thing for you. So why don't we argue using the intersectional approach that we should be you should allow us, like, for example, the epistemology, they kind of know that you know this No, no, but here's what I'm saying, Look, there has been a bias in favor of what we call Western or colonial feminism, right? white women, or even privileged women that are not white

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privilege, just like me, and you're privileged, right? On this discourse. Yeah. And why can they call the shots? Yeah, like, for example, if we really did a referendum on the Muslim community, how much do you percent? Do you think we'll agree with her stance on LGBT? How representative? Is she really, of the Muslim community? she, her stances are basically not representative of Islam of the Muslim community in the US or the UK or any part of the West. So let's just so let's go over some of these positions. So so so so her position on abortion? Yes. So she has a position on obviously same sex relationships. Right. So So for my understand, there's also some concern with regards to have

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views on Muslim women having non Muslim husbands and partners, right, yeah, so so there's a plethora of issues pertaining to Linda's positions, and we shouldn't be surprised. And for the last 510 minutes, where he just spoke very academically, and you know, if you've got a bit lost, what we're essentially saying here is that Linda has subscribed to a framework of activism and an ideological basis, which is an Islamic, let's be frank about it, right? And its roots is within Marxism, and Marx had no space for religion. Religion was an oppressive factor on society understanding as a proletarian the bourgeoisie. Religion was just an opium Yani. Yeah. So in that case, we have to

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understand that Linda has subscribed and many others, by the way. And even in the UK, we have massive Econ, we have some of your cobis, who's far less prominent, but we have similar individuals, but just not as prominent as Linda who's made huge waves. And this position, which she espouses, clearly on Islam, and she carries on trying to justify and if she gets the support from all ama and institutes who come across as traditional mainstream and normative. This is a very, very dangerous thing between the two. And this is the problem. And that's happened with

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a party called I don't know, what was actually word used about praising her.

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So it's and

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let's not get into the issue, but if he is someone that people seem in American, Muslim, and authority, if he's praising her, then what do we do from that moment? onwards? I don't understand. Yeah, this this this is a point of tension because I had this conversation with somebody face to face. Can I just say something? Depends on your squad? Yeah. So you also called the when, when Linda came down for men's national anti Islamophobia conference kind of thing, right? There's this kind of very open discussion between yourself called the and Linda sarsour because a lot of Muslims in the UK raised concerns or men that public Yes, you can see it It should be on men's YouTube channel.

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Yeah. And and you also put a bit of heat on it pressure a little bit on pressed on some of our positions. She got, you know, a bit on the backfoot because it wasn't like Matthew Hudson who's on her science, right. This is more of a kind of neutral Muslim ish platform. Yeah. So it's there. And so in your so called his defense he did at times has pushed on her positions, but they have a muscle her calculus, and that is why would we call out Linda Sassoon and Alia Mujahid and others right with another individual. Why would we call them out when number one the far right the right wing duck afford the disbelieves and those who are actual open enemies of Islam and Muslims are attacking

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these very same people. And they have the same justification for Ilhan Omar etc. and rasheeda Talib. But the point is, where do we draw the line? Well, I was just about to say that where do we draw the line? Where do we draw the line? That's the question is the right wing is not just it's not just open enemies of Islam? No, no, no, what I'm saying is that not all of them are enemies of Islam. And likewise, people on the left are sometimes and with Islam, basically. Sometimes wolves in sheep's wool, which one is which I do. Okay, let's be honest. Which one do you think is worse? the far right or the far left? It's very difficult. There's another one second, I believe the far right.

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generally want to kill the body in the context. And the far left looks that they want to kill the soul. Because if we talk about LGBTQ, the farther I get my country, I don't want you here. I want you dead. The LGBTQ the far left, what they're doing is they're not convincing, nobody will love you. But internally the destroyed you Yaki to us as Muslims, is our booty more important of the soul. So I believe the far left are a greater danger than the farrakhan that's interesting. What you're saying is that the rhetoric of the far right is more interested in moving our physical bodies, immigration and

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an enemy and the left is more theological or ideological, exactly values. And then as human beings we live in a materialistic world where every aesthetic so when we see someone saying We love you, wow. Okay. And then our construct done. Now when we go to the far right when I see the foreigners in confrontation, I know what they're about. I know why I expect them to know I'm going to give you so with the far left, I love you and you feel a bit like

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Okay, you know, maybe maybe, I think the question is where do we draw the line? And where do you think our American Muslim brother and sister making a mistake or just before we go into the specifics of school and American activism, it's important to say that brothers Islam is neither right or left is the middle path, right, you will find commonalities in the left and socialism and find commonalities in the right when it comes to family traditional values law and order there you will find with economy, fiscal policies, etc, etc. But the point here is, when we've looked at successive governments in the West in the West, namely the UK and the US, right, both the left and

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the right, have killed Islam have killed Muslims and maligned Islam. Yes, Obama had the most drone strikes, right. In fact, during his tenure as president than Donald Trump, Obama was the one that introduced the travel ban, Trump only added two, three more countries, how many did you know? Tony Blair was center left? This man was a socialist, right? China is a communist country. Russia is a follower of no older socialists. No, no, no. But the point trying to make is, we should get this out of this caricature in that the writer, our enemies, on the left are our allies, by appreciate that there is a growing trend of Muslim academics who are doing decolonial studies who are doing

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sociology and all various other studies in universities. And what they have said to me, is that Muslim academics and activists find the left as a safe space to articulate our grievances. Yeah, we don't find that space in the right, we find this space within the left, because since they're already criticizing colonialism, within a particular restrictive framework, I must add as well, it's not an unadulterated critique of European colonialism, right? But there's a space there where Muslims can criticize counter extremism laws, foreign policy, Islamophobia, etc, etc. And I think that is why there is a natural gravitation towards the problem is as it is just kind of alluded to

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right now, when you get sucked into this, and then they say to you, Well, okay, we'll be your friend, so on and so on. But then you have to kind of inherit our ideologies. So you, but now you have to believe in what we believe in when it comes to gay marriage, when it comes to homosexual behavior, when it comes to whatever it was abortion, and so on, and so forth. And all of these things are completely against Islam. When it comes to Linda sarsour herself, to be honest with you, I was I was looking at some of the videos that she's put up online. Okay. And what I've noticed is actually, she's quite a provocateur. Now, I've seen her speaking to, you know, with with strong left

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wing rhetoric. And I think this actually causes a backlash in the sense that there's some people on the center, right, maybe not exactly far, right. That would come back and probably say something like, Well, why we hate you for two reasons. Now, you're a Muslim on your left. And you're giving people additional reasons to hate you, right? Well, you don't need to inherit these belief systems. I think the beautiful thing about Islam is like, once you like you've just said, this is all inclusive, and it's not left or right. And so going along with the left, and inheriting these things is gonna cause problems. I think, I think Saul's gonna be watching this. And I just, we need to

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formulate certain questions to ask and I think that she owes it to the Muslim community at this stage to answer these questions. And the first question is, do you believe it's morally accept homosexual behavior? Anything from

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kiss on the cheek to full fully fledged penetrative sex between man and man, for example? Do you believe that this is morally acceptable? That's a B, do you believe abortion is morally acceptable after performance? Let's say a six month old child in the mother's womb, do you think that's morally acceptable? Number three, do you believe that a woman a Muslim woman can marry for example, Christian and atheist marriage? Do you think that's a morally acceptable position? You believe that that is morally acceptable? Yes or no? These questions are all yes or no questions. We want to know so that we can position you or so we can make a judgement upon you as a public person in the Muslim

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community, because the truth of the matter is, and do we should mention this, as well, is that she was rejected by the Democratic Party, isn't it? Yeah. So by the Biden campaign, just leave his last month, they literally dropped at the drop of a hat, literally, that she was she was at a Biden campaign event, I believe. And some journalists noticed her and as soon as they raise concerns with the election campaign to Biden, they literally dropped her and distance herself distanced themselves from Linda sarsour Oh,

00:29:34--> 00:29:36

no, she I think she was there just delivering a

00:29:37--> 00:29:59

a speech to to kind of rally and and organize Arab Muslim voters for the Biden campaign, because obviously the elections coming up next month. And as soon as they identified Linda, who is generally known as, you know, progressive, progressive, but what was was Saunders name, what's the guy's name? Bernie Sanders. Yeah, she's generally known as that kind of

00:30:00--> 00:30:19

left of the democrats I was Biden is like center left. This guy's also near liberal you mean? So as soon as they clock in, they dropped out because you know, we know she has nothing to do with this campaign. This is all to do with her position on Philistines. humiliation, humiliation. And this reminds me of how this actually is beautiful it for the problem is

00:30:20--> 00:30:30

that if you do something for the pleasure of the people, and that that causes the displeasure of a lot, then allow basically leave you to the people. In other words,

00:30:31--> 00:31:05

they will be happy with you. Neither one is so and this is the reality of the situation. The truth is when you're when you're grounded in Islamic principles, right? As I'm sure you've both kind of experienced with your respective activism, when you're grounded at the summit principles, well, no matter what happens, you know that actually, this is the theological position that makes most sense in my religion. So whatever happens to me, I'm sticking by what I know is true. Exactly. You know, you know, you ask some question to sister Linda. Yeah, yeah, the question before she answered, I think she needs there has to be a point of inflection, she needs to say, Okay. Instead of for some

00:31:05--> 00:31:39

people when you ask a question, okay, I need to answer this. Before I answer that, are you answering it from yourself or from the Quran and Sunnah is very important. Because if it's coming from you, so this is something this is the deen of Allah. So if you're going to answer these questions of abortion, LGBT, and all the other things, and you're coming from your perspective, and you think what you think is right, this is very problematic, okay? Because if there's no basis, she says that she said in the interview with Matthew Hudson, she's not a scholar. So how could you make statements Aki, what is the deen of Allah in such magnitude? With confidence? Well, I would say before

00:31:39--> 00:32:17

answering this question she really needs to ponder upon, is this coming from an area of knowledge? And if it's not, one needs to be really careful to what they're saying. And really, I do think once again, to press this point, that those three questions in particular, were the guidelines in Islam are absolutely categorical. We do need as a Muslim community. Yeah. Because you're a public figure, I'm sure many people, your constituents in the US, your fans or your friends or wherever you want to call them. We need an answer to these three questions. To repeat one more time. The three questions are, do you believe that same sex behavior on sexual behavior is morally acceptable? Whether a

00:32:17--> 00:32:57

Muslim is doing it? Or a non Muslim is doing it? Anybody who's doing it? Is homosexual behavior, according to your worldview? Is that morally acceptable? Number two, do you believe abortion in all circumstances is morally acceptable? Do you believe that? Do you believe that abortion maybe a five month old child or six month old child Do you think that that is morally acceptable stance? Number three, was a settle? Muslim women marry a Muslim woman marrying? Let's say an atheist or a Christian? Do you believe that's acceptable? And is that morally okay? In your work on your worldview? Is this okay? Yes or no? And we need to know the answers. Because the truth is this woman

00:32:57--> 00:33:34

comes on television programs, she comes on different interviews, and she says, My people referencing the Muslims, Muslims, if you survey them almost anywhere in the world with these three questions, the vast majority of Muslims will answer in a very specific way to these three questions anywhere in the world. If you want to if you want to represent the Muslim interest, you have to speak the Muslim language. So Linda so so another thing is, you're welcome to come to the podcast damage podcast. Now, whether you have a face to face discussion, obviously on zoom or whatever, I'm very interested we can we can have a discussion on these matters. You're very much invited to this. And I believe

00:33:34--> 00:33:58

that people all over the Western world, Muslims and non Muslims alike, would like to hear you really answer these questions. Because at the end of the day, people are accusing you of Being Well speaking of forked tongue, which which is the point talking about this stuff? And if you just say something, yes, I'm not giving very sleazy because someone will say, Well, look, you know, she's not here to defend herself and I need to just play that little part just so we're not sinful.

00:33:59--> 00:34:00

Yeah, so

00:34:03--> 00:34:38

no one's taken away Linda's great work in the in the field of activism for Islamophobia, context, humanism, laws, Palestine, etc. And almost taking this away from you. We appreciate and acknowledge those good things that you've done, and you've got a long track record. But we want to reiterate to the listeners, the views and yourself, that these things are not a criteria for Islamic activism. These things are not a foregone. They're not they're not a source or a basis for how we go about enjoying the good and forbidding evil. So these are good things in and of themselves. But once you start dabbling in dipping your feet in your case, putting up putting yourself to entirely in in

00:34:38--> 00:34:44

propagating dispositions, which are unequivocally hot on coffee, then you will be called out exactly. And I think,

00:34:45--> 00:34:46


00:34:47--> 00:34:59

is that he said that how many people intended good but they never got the chance to achieve it. So we're not we're not seeing your intention when it's coming to send you an infiltrator. What we're seeing is your intention might be good and this goes to our next topic of the whole

00:35:00--> 00:35:14

Start almost to the month issue. Because, once again, look, and I'll dive straight into here. Is that any Muslim that does a certain app, whether it be me, I never remember the issue of the whole, you know, many, okay.

00:35:16--> 00:35:41

The whole issue of you know, brother, Danny Pikachu, what was what are the whole things like they're literally all of that yet. I want to make that from the get I just want to make something very clear anytime I see any of that behavior from any Muslim, I personally do not think this person is intentionally committed. I believe the intentions are there, but in an action and an action to be accepted as we know from Quran and Sunnah is that I can see my intentions academic also nightclub and speak some girls and give them power. Yeah, maybe I'm not received yet.

00:35:46--> 00:35:47


00:35:48--> 00:35:50

the thing is intentions are good, but if your actions and

00:35:51--> 00:36:32

is it gonna be accepted? So the question is this good? Yeah, I think this is a good point. To raise Actually, I'm not really interested in that particular case study in a vacuum. I'm interested in it in conjunction with our major question, which is activism in the UK in the US? Because I think the bigger question here is, when Dr. Omar Suleiman, of course we love and respect who's a Muslim and we think good things off we don't we're not trying to cancel anybody, right simple, then how could you be honest, what law he didn't know true believers that we we love Yes, all the believers and the Quran instructs us. This is very important guys. You know, the Quran instructs us to say, to be

00:36:32--> 00:36:39

humble with the believers, Wofford Jacqueline, what many, you know, a lawyer when to the believers for Jacqueline Manitoba coming to

00:36:40--> 00:36:44

the pubs? Yeah, so though, you have to be taking

00:36:46--> 00:36:49

some time for God to help you but just get taken out? Yeah. Wow.

00:36:51--> 00:36:51

No long thing. You said.

00:36:52--> 00:37:16

Look, let's let's talk about this. Because Yeah, with with this in the UK, we said that we've we've had quite, let's say a conference, confrontational approach, sometimes with the case study that you brought up with the Birmingham incident, which you said has had traction was instigating national conversations. This situation here was clearly the the migrant protests was being spearheaded by

00:37:17--> 00:37:23

left wing parties, of which obviously, the LGBT community came came forward Christian community.

00:37:24--> 00:37:29

I think some Jews with their faith groups that are left leaning, Jews and Christians are not generally left.

00:37:30--> 00:37:47

So they all kind of together and there was some really like horrible things that we had to witness. First, first of them was the annoyance because this was clear in my appointment. Am I understanding disbelief? Okay, so the sister What was her name?

00:37:49--> 00:37:50

So she is someone she is not just

00:37:51--> 00:38:07

this person who was literally being she had a cross being anointed on her head. something of that nature? No, no, no, no, I have to be educated here. As far as I know, as for LGBTQ, whatever you want to call it with a rainbow thing doing crossing the line? I don't know the exact words. I don't know.

00:38:09--> 00:38:23

It was. What was it? Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. Go to me, that was the like, mine. What was it? Just what what hold on? Was it just it? Was it someone else? No, there was another guy from Arabella Was there another brother was Danny sauce important was his name.

00:38:24--> 00:38:27

He was the head of care, wasn't he? Yeah.

00:38:28--> 00:39:01

Yes, yes. So there was no she was I believe she was economic please. She was even economical care is honorable. She's very prominent. You also need to mention that mom's eishockey from say tuna was present in this he was present when he wasn't doing this. Right. It's important to differentiate between who was present and who was doing it. It's also important to understand with this with this particular that if we've got people of knowledge there that not only can encode and are not forbidding this evil, what is happening in front of him was a greater activism than the activism against shift. Well, I gave a speech, I gave a lecture at UCLA last year, it was entitled, what is

00:39:01--> 00:39:05

the ideal Muslim activists and what we stop is the

00:39:06--> 00:39:27

thinking of the rights of the people is the rights of Allah subhanho wa Taala. Exactly. That is the basis of activism that emanates everything about you know, here's the point, guys, look, I'll be honest with you. I have to be I've spoken to somebody about this before, and I had the whole kind of podcast with him. I know about I know, the first one, not the second one. All right, I had to apologize. Yeah, we know about that, too.

00:39:30--> 00:39:44

But with that we had this discussion, right. And it's an important discussion. And we're trying to just kind of find best practices. Because not only are these kinds of protests, which are spearheaded by these LGBT groups, or left leaning groups, whatever you want to call them,

00:39:45--> 00:39:57

spearheaded by them, and then Muslims are expected to come and kind of tag along. Not only are they problematic from an allegiance perspective, but they're problematic practically. And look at what's happening. If someone as

00:39:58--> 00:39:59

someone who's religious

00:40:00--> 00:40:40

as knowledgeable as almost a man was pressured, let's be honest, he was pressured enough not to kind of do in car, as we've mentioned, not to negate this not to make a speech against this, which quite frankly, if this guy would have gone to speaker's corner, right and done this to Muslim people, this person would have been laughed out the park. So what I'm saying is, if someone like him can be kind of pressured to do things like this, yeah, which are things quite frankly, which are quite frightening. Yeah. Then imagine allowing a lay audience, young people 15 1617 to go to these environments, where the lines are, the theological lines are completely blurred. My question is, on

00:40:40--> 00:41:18

what basis is the trade off of a young Muslim person being in that environment in any way better than your right, the benefit that you can achieve from the activism that's being done? I think blood is an understatement. non existent would be more apt, you know, again, it's not uncommon that you find left leaning progressive groups leading on these issues. And you find that Muslims generally have little to no say, in terms of the terms of engagement here. And this is something again, it's a discussion that's taking place in the UK is a discussion that's taking place in parts of Europe. I think what's happened in the US that they've taken it to a different level.

00:41:19--> 00:41:56

They've taken it to a different level here. Look at it. as Muslims in the UK province, we don't hide that we have 16 to 17 practically more or less useless MPs when it comes to advocating or pushing for Muslim rights. Yeah, we know this. We know we have a mayor in London, who like Ilhan Omar will dance and hold hands and get jiggy with LGBT people. We know this. But the point we're trying to make across here is, is the religious valid validation or silence from people knowledge last right, Mayor Sadiq Khan did not what did what he do with the support of Allah and Imams and institutes? Whether indirectly or directly, and this is what we're essentially addressing you? You know, look, I

00:41:56--> 00:42:03

want to comment from an angle. Yeah, like, you know, Allah subhanaw taala tells us about ministry when he told them not to fish in this ever gonna cry. What's going on?

00:42:14--> 00:42:45

In the Quran, Allah subhanaw taala not sufficient the Sabbath. Yeah. And there was three groups. The first group was the ones who obeyed. And the second group was the ones who didn't act in a bit, you know, like, you know, clever thinking. Yeah. And the third group was the ones beside him. Yeah, the scholars say that Allah subhanho wa Taala, destroyed, the ones who didn't obey and the ones who were silent. Yeah. So it's very important for us to understand that when you're silent. You're a part of that. Yeah. But I want to make some, I just want to come from a different angle, because me like, I'll be honest, I like to give the benefit of doubt to believe you get it. So believe it or not, we

00:42:45--> 00:42:58

have to look, you know, why, look? And these are the dangers like, for example, talking about our MP or the mayor here, Ilhan, Omar, whenever you get into these circles, you need to understand Yeah, is. And we've been in certain similar situations this year.

00:42:59--> 00:43:31

Yes, exactly. It was very open in the context of we went there because an injustice happened. The person that's running over these show brothers and sisters, he didn't say, Okay, this is this. He didn't. So the thing is, it's like in these situations, it's very hard. Because you know, when you're trying to do something for the sake of Allah, and you're joining hands together, and they're praising the unseen, you know, thank you for coming, man, etc. What happens is, you end up trying to please them unintentionally, you feel awkward. So for example, and so I'm gonna start with that, because maybe

00:43:34--> 00:44:06

I put them aside out of respect, I just want to say that, like, so the thing is not as a title is a title as being used quite willy nilly. Okay, I yeah. So So the thing is, so the thing is here is just when he was, for example, kind of, to females, females came in later. Look, at the end of the day, there's two extremes. Yeah, like, I believe, I will. No, no, no, but I'm trying to make a point here. So I'm not saying this is what I'm trying to say is, you can see that he's in an awkward position. And he doesn't want to be that. Yeah. And you can see that by him leaving and going. So sometimes you have to

00:44:07--> 00:44:19

realize that he actually kind of repentant No, exactly. So this is what I'm saying. I'm saying exactly. He made a repentance. Yeah. Now I respect that Akita true yet. I don't agree to certain stuff.

00:44:22--> 00:44:30

But the point is, sometimes is that in that situation, he clearly said, I didn't know this liberation or libation, or whatever you want to call it? Yeah. It was it was.

00:44:39--> 00:44:51

Like I said before, II II didn't hear it. No, no, no, I'm sorry. I have to assume the best in the country. If somebody's saying he didn't know, for me to be like, Oh, that's not good enough. You're not good enough. So

00:44:52--> 00:44:55

one lady said he was consecrated voter, but he probably didn't.

00:44:56--> 00:45:00

Maybe Maybe because if somebody said he's a believer, and also like

00:45:00--> 00:45:01

I just wrote an article I

00:45:02--> 00:45:04

kind of explained exactly, exactly.

00:45:05--> 00:45:29

To me where the red line was drawn. And once again, it comes back to that one lights. And this goes across board. Yeah. And it's the pleasing the people at the cost of Allah, Allah subhanaw taala. And you see this over and over again, you know, we do not understand the rights of Allah subhanaw taala. Well, like, how could you go in front of a priest? And he's doing a question, or my you know, no, well, they I think to myself, if there was any line that was crossed it, because if

00:45:30--> 00:46:03

a man is saying that he didn't know he's publicly repentant, we can see that he's moving away, yet. We need to make ends meet. You know what, he's not comfortable. He probably regrets it. One thing I'll criticize and say, maybe you should have made this person repentance when this happened. Yeah, this is not not after two, three years. Yeah. Well, I also brought in brother Daniels defense, initially, when he raised some concerns and some pictures. Yeah, call him a liar. And until it came out, I didn't know that. Yeah. Okay, so he released some photos first and yeah, you know, many people call him a liar. And, you know, and, and then the footage got released, and then you can he

00:46:03--> 00:46:11

was just like, Okay, well, okay. I see. No, no, brother, Danny, how could you know, he has a right. You know why? I'll be honest, if I was in America, and I saw this one line, you know, I said,

00:46:12--> 00:46:28

well, it's sad, while you look at all these dwarves, and we're like, Where is your backbone? Okay, within this certain situation, when we want to shake our hands, we could easily say, You know what? Yes, no, no, I know. But we'll see. We'll see. And we don't have them do. Why is it that when it comes to even shaking hands at you, we're like,

00:46:29--> 00:47:01

we're not even going there. yet. Why? Because we know it's not going to stick there. My hand, give me a hug. Okay, hug after hug. God knows where she's gonna flip and tell me to do the thing is this the way to draw the line. So we say prevention is better than cure, and they are never going to be happy with you. And this one also says in the Quran, and I went over the idea that if you compromise this much, they're going to want more and more and more. And this is what I think I would as a nobody convey this to the Americans out there that if you compromise what law, he

00:47:02--> 00:47:14

asked for more and more and one, look at the degree that I'm going live. This is so disturbing, I imagine the watch of your shift, and somebody there and you feel bad, because a priest is dancing on your turn to do the cross and you're thinking,

00:47:16--> 00:47:23

I don't know, one second. I don't want to be rude. Can you imagine? Who the hell are you, man, I don't want to be rude. I wasn't good.

00:47:27--> 00:47:29

It's nothing but it's a reality.

00:47:31--> 00:47:35

The fruit that comes from all of this is not to try and point the finger up.

00:47:37--> 00:48:21

Dr. masala man, I'm not trying to point the finger at him and say that, that's not this is and it's fruitless for me to do that. So he's already been held to account and he's already come to with his repentance, whatever, for me is to show the futility and the weakness and the unsuccessful nature of this approach, this approach of pandering to the left wing going to their protests spearheaded by them, it just yeah, I need the professor says I'm such a moron as in Holly Lee, the man is in the religion of his friend. In fact, when you allow Muslim youth to attend, places like this, right, where there's potential for sugar and coffee and free mixing them and for them to actually do that,

00:48:21--> 00:48:47

by by believing in, you know, all those things that we've talked about homosexuality, etc. What you're doing is you're, you're actually there's an opportunity cost here, the opportunity of cost of activism for Muslims versus dour for Islam. Yeah, unfortunately, you've chosen the activism over down. That's my concern. My concern is not the individual person, the individual person, him Allah Subhana, he's gonna be just like all of us judge on the Day of Judgment.

00:48:48--> 00:49:22

We're not talking about the individual person, we're talking about the strategy that's employed. I genuinely, totally believe that it's a failed strategy. It is a failed strategy, compared with the UK strategy. It's a completely failed strategy. There's the UK strategy of Muslim conservative whether you call them orthodox Muslims, whatever, single issue, and they make the positions clear who is looking at because at the end of the day, when it comes to the UK general election, most Muslims will still generally vote labour, but they had the certain red lines at the Omaha's here. The RSC was one of those issues. circumcision was one of them issues. haloumi was one of those

00:49:22--> 00:49:59

issues. There's many the same sex marriage was an issue. Those $500 Mark did not have to come out and white that statement when the bill was already going through, it was to make clear, just to let you know, since you're pushed into bluefruit, this is the actual position of the community. You understand. Now with regards to our advice to you know, Islamic Institute's Muslim activists, broadly speaking in the West, if you believe from the consultation of your scholars, that, you know, attending these protests and these kind of things is permissible, and there's a genuine shadowy base Musleh here. Yeah. At least take some caution.

00:50:00--> 00:50:20

proportion by telling muslimeen stay away, stay segregated. Don't embark on these things. No even tell the organizers. It's not even just like that. It's worse than that. You have to it is total seeing that these things are happening, right? You have to overcompensate theologically, for telling them that this is Kufa. Yes. Exactly. This is

00:50:21--> 00:50:22


00:50:23--> 00:50:23

This you have to

00:50:25--> 00:50:49

agree. Do you agree that, for example, that there can be some kind of working together, but lines have to be drawn? Yeah, please. Yeah, you're not you're not? You're not you're not saying that you shouldn't do this from the get go. We're seeing the foundations you're set up on is flawed. In the ideal world, I believe that Muslims should lead this, if we're talking about success of civil rights movements, right in the 60s and 70s. Yeah, and everyone will know this from history.

00:50:51--> 00:51:18

It was only when the blacks took their own initiative. It was only when women the service argument or the feminist movement took their own initiative. Absolutely. Only when people from communities have look, we don't have objectives, like we're not very clear. The way they should be is that we're coming out with very clear objectives, just like they didn't in Birmingham that time it was a good early 200 people. Imagine what happens if we get 5000. Imagine what happens if we get 5000 people talking about, for example, the week?

00:51:20--> 00:51:23

How many of you, even though it might be the wrong context, but still Yeah.

00:51:25--> 00:51:34

The idea is this. The idea is, if a single issue is a very clear message is non compromising of our principles? Yes, this is this is different from what

00:51:35--> 00:52:07

we've seen in our history, the women's emancipation movement in the UK, the Indian independence movement, the anti apartheid movement, the black civil rights movement, the Arab Spring, or at least what it began as it was when people took ownership on their terms to change their circumstances, and not jumping onto other people's bandwagons where there will be ideological compromise in our case, you know, clearly seeing things more often should you understand, yeah, somebody brings more harm, because absolutely, you know, which things you know, it's true, we have to be careful these things, but the thing is, like, again, and one thing I want to touch upon his role here is very important,

00:52:07--> 00:52:37

because sometimes, you know, when we're making these comments or given opinions here, personally, myself, I believe my opinion, only, I can just give you if it's a youngsters watching you, I'm trying to give the same to them. Yeah. Because yaqeen Institute, like, for example, amberleigh, like shakhtyor, right? Yeah. It's someone that I look up to, yeah, somebody who's there, and who's trying to move the organization in shall, as far as I know, assuming the best to the right direction. Yeah. And it's very important for us to also not jump on the bandwagon because we have some people to be like, you know, well, I saw one Baba in the park, saying, you know, Mama teachers have got basura

00:52:37--> 00:52:52

from Allah. And yet, you know, the teachers, unqualified teachers here, and and what is the thing he calls it he knew about yesterday, and they knew about this guy, and that guy is like me to interview and 40 people and two of them become a root of the inequality when we're talking about we're not.

00:52:53--> 00:53:23

We're not but the point here is this year, we need to know let some people come and say, Oh, I knew See, I knew it. I warned about this five years ago, I can be talking about Jani, we need to be careful, because otherwise what happens we embarrass ourselves because we don't have the knowledge. And there are people who have knowledge on board, like shatta had white, which is a person of knowledge, who's dedicated his life to knowledge, Angela, who's on board. So with this aspect, the only thing that I want to touch upon is that because I don't want to go into your industry as an organization, etc. Because if there's a person of knowledge, they are kiama nobody to talk in the

00:53:23--> 00:53:47

constituency. And I want to give that to you, right, because as a youngster, sometimes we've crossed our limits and be like, Oh, no, this is wrong. Why not talking about this, etc. And what will happen is it backfires and makes us look embarrassing, because what happened, the smear campaign that happened against you hate them. And funnily enough, and from Imran, I'd be very strong for the sake of Allah. But this was an issue that was done in public needs to be addressed in public when probably Imran Khan

00:53:49--> 00:53:52

people won't know. They know who I'm talking about. Yeah, trust me. They know what I'm talking about you.

00:53:56--> 00:54:14

No, exactly. So the thing is, what happened this chef, Chef, Chef, no, no, no, no, he knows I speak to him handler and I'm gonna see him in two weeks time is one hour difference in the public domain. But the issue is this chef Haytham was flown under the bus he was smear campaign happened here. And guess what shakhtyor White was used to

00:54:15--> 00:54:32

justify in the context of this is a real scholar he was praised in such a level that this video was taken down now Why? Because now shakhtyor white male a blessing Mashallah is yaqeen Institute. So sometimes speaking without knowledge, it backfires. So there's a lot of people jumping on the bandwagon. And he just said we knew he was on the right path and

00:54:37--> 00:54:40

he was on the right path. But why

00:54:41--> 00:55:00

this argument has been made and we're saying you can't make that like No, nobody should jump on the bandwagon and be like, you know, like, I knew it. I knew this was coming, etc. Please, if you don't let us know. Arlene listicle I'm on the hard shoulder and people should stick to their lane and not come up with I knew See I told I want you guys etc. This is I have a

00:55:00--> 00:55:15

is a point of refutation here, which is, if you're willing to do the refutation I'll you know, anyone can reserve the right to say, well, this person's changed their views therefore, I've changed mine about them, right? But the point of refutation what you've done refutation by that so why not do one about him as well? Well,

00:55:16--> 00:55:57

we'll end up right. I feel we are slightly digressing. We did. But but let's just pull it back. Yeah. As tempting as it is, I love digressions. Yeah. Look, we get this yassa is a huge gray area. So see us, and generally the politics and the affairs of people is a huge gray area. And we get, especially in the last 8200 years, with historical and monumental changes in the Muslim world and huge communities in the West, that this issue of Muslim minority survival in non Muslim lands is a new reality are we get that there are many scopes many justifications, many maximum which can be applied in terms of our engagement in my activism, but I guess what we're trying to address in this

00:55:57--> 00:55:59

podcast is red lines.

00:56:00--> 00:56:01


00:56:02--> 00:56:42

what enables what enables from a theological point of view where is Allah Institute's enabling for the red lines to ever be blurred, or distorted or even become non existent? So there is a level of accountability when we have individuals like Linda sarsour in the US or others in the UK, but most of the prominent ones in the US that they have been praised by scholars, they have been hosted by Islamic institutions, they have been. So so so these are these are huge, right? Because at the end of the day, if you are going to present the likes of Linda sarsour and Ilhan Omar and Rashida tlaib, Salma, Yaqoob Hayao masa de Khan, as your, as your role models for your children, know that when

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they grow up, they can adopt these positions and say, well, you praise them when we were young. You may not see their posters and their videos and their lectures and the talks when we were young. So we to not adopt these things. Chances are, it's a very dangerous thing that needs to be nipped in the bud right now. Because the dangerous things are ahead for you. I think what it is, is that we're talking about balances, right? On one side of the spectrum, you have people who are blurring the lines or getting rid of them. And the other side, and this is where realizing the untenable nature of this how, how much of a failure This is actually and how much of an embarrassment it becomes.

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We saw this, by the way, in Egypt, with the Salafi movement. Yeah. And how, by the way, this is brotherly advice. Like, honestly, if you look at history, or the recent history, right with with political bowel movements that became political, and then they engaged in activism, they got on the wrong side of the political spectrum. And then basically, the Dow became an almost zero example was crazy. Yeah, you know, but this example here of a group, I'm not trying to mention the politics in my why I'm talking about is the Dow aspect, yes, that the Dow fizzled away there, you know, those people just look, just do a Google Trends search on Amazon, it

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is probably the most, he was actually one of the most searched people in on the internet in the Arabic world, in Egypt from I think 2008 to a certain time period, right. And right after the the protests and riots in Egypt took place, and he took a certain position, and he's nowhere to be seen now. And the same thing applies with the Salafi movement in Egypt, that sometimes when you take certain political decisions, it destroys your power. And what I worry about with the American diet, I'll be completely honest, is that they're they might actually fall into learn from the lessons of recent history. They may be like that as well. Yeah. Because when you do something, which is to

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delay audiences, so clearly selling out, quite frankly, right? I'm not saying they're doing that. But if you go in that direction, but if it seems like that, eventually, the reality is, what's gonna happen is, people are gonna say, Well, to be honest, we were following you because you followed Islam. Yes. Now we can see even though you're not following Islam, therefore, never follow, you know, and it's as simple as that your doubt will become completely bankrupt, it will break from from within, it will be a thing of the past, just like the Egyptian example. On the other side, though, you have these other groups of ultra conservative people.

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And they're realizing their vision is not working either, quite frankly. Well, why? Well, that's so true.

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There's a disconnect between that and the reality that this is this ain't working. And that ain't working either. Because, hold on, you weren't you weren't making refutations of people. You were making refutations of people. Yeah. And now you've got you're making refutations of them because of their stances of speaking against the rulers. But now you're hosting them on your program.

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I'm really sorry. This is hypocrisy. This is what sets now I know you were labeling them a 20 before now you you've got them sitting next to you speaking to them because an enemy of the enemy is my friend.

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So you're using Muslim. But wait a minute, you never used Muslim before. So why is

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Why is Muslim now in part of your your jurisprudential tools, you would never be sitting with this individual if you didn't have a common enemy. So the point is that's not working and that's not gonna work. There's something in the middle and that's why you need to have a robust understanding of Islam not just that I can but also when you have an understanding of the cam then you don't fall into a Muslim Muslim aka d'amato macadam, Allah knows. Oh, this tofi there's a guy called Mr. Medina tofi was a student of Tamia who said that a Muslim ha is more cut down on us. It comes before the text. And this was refuted by almost I've written something.

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I've written an essay on this. It was also something which was

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becoming a Hamza Hamza does this also, I'm studying philosophy at the moment.

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But I do have

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degrees. No, no, no, I'm just saying, cuz I've got something people can read. I'm gonna send them

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to 32 templates.

01:01:03--> 01:01:03

I'm gonna say,

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yeah, that's on one side. Sorry. That's what you're doing. Because the law says you're not allowed to do to support certain things that you're supporting it that's Muslim. You're using a two phase notion, right? Well, that's what it is. And on the other side, you have these people who are saying, well, Muslim masala doesn't maybe not even exist. Maybe they don't even know how to conceptualize Muslim masala. So, but But the truth is, there is such a thing as Muslim, that they have this weird understanding of Tibet. Yeah. And that blocks everything for them, stops them from being able to cooperate with anybody. So these people here

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have a lot of knowledge and imitate something. A scholar can be ignorant. And this is called the general market. compounded ignorance. Because when you actually think you're right, you think you're right, but you're wrong, because you've made the wrong kind of judgment. So the idea is don't go into this site. And don't go into this side. We're saying there's a middle path. And the middle path is afterwards my mom's phone one second. answering the phone. I'm so sorry, because it's too cold too many times. Maybe this is okay. Brother and sister. If your mom calls on Monday, she didn't send me

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a video.

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There's a point I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

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This didn't work. Yeah. Because this is embarrassing, because you're gonna embarrass yourself. Praising someone I can tell so because you're don't want to confront her? Because she's a bit too forceful for you. This position? Yeah. I think that she's forceful on them. They don't want to confront her. But on the other side, that's the American dies. They just thought

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I must add, there's not that many. But on the other side, on the other side, you have these people that are challenging everybody. Yeah. And and they're not making friends of anyone. Yeah, we're seeing there's a middle path, which is don't fall into calculator,

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which is operandi don't do any Canon and Nikon at the same time should? No, no, no, we're not. We're not trying to cancel people. Yeah, we're just trying to advise them as a loving brothers that we want the best for them. It's also important to add because obviously, you guys specifically highlighted those from the Salafi persuasion, but let's not let's not get twisted, my dear brothers. Yeah, there are also those who come from an edema too ready to sober feeb background that use this guise of obeying rulers not adopting, you know, leftist ideology that they hide behind this garb of traditionalism while supporting backing and bootlicking tyrants. Yeah. So we are again, reiterating

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that neither of the camps is an ideal thing to be, you know, subscribing to do you understand, because I know right now, it's a very polarized arena, especially online. It's either, you know, the kind of left leaning progressive woke Imams, etc, etc, who produce always assume that they produce the likes of Linda sarsour. And on the other spectrum, we have abled, or they enable it. Yeah. On the other side, you have the traditionalist and there could be Sufi or Salafi, but they will also have some issues, there is no and it's more apparent in the Muslim world. But we see elements of it here in terms of accepting certain laws, accepting certain oppressive laws towards Muslims and

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people of color in the West. What we're saying here, there needs to be a balance of there needs to be a middle ground. I don't think any three of us here and and many people are watching that we subscribe to either. We're saying that there are there's validity in both and there is clear problems in both but today obviously we are addressing the societal issue and and and up on the Mexican immigration protests, because the rotten fruits for undeniably apparent.

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Yeah, I think it was productive podcast man. We're coming from a place where we want to say to people that we're all brothers, but because we love you, whoever you may be that's watching this podcast. Because we love you as brothers and sisters. We thought it'd be productive, to have this discussion with you not with the intent of trying to harm you or to detract from your personal from your personality or from your status. But actually to bring you closer to

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to maybe a caught up, like the Quran says, you know, Accra woman has a Russia. Yeah, sorry.

01:05:08--> 01:05:09

That was it

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outside again.

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So this podcast was not intended to try and harm anybody or to try and do what Dr. Tech fear or to cancel anybody. But instead, it was just productive advice and discussions about strategies. And quite frankly, these strategies that are being employed in terms of activism need to be revised. It's good that we've tried certain things. But we know now, I think quite clearly what does not work, it doesn't work to be completely quietest, and not cooperative. And it does not work either. To be because those individuals were quite as are not cooperating. Right. And we're seeing the tenability of that position. And on the other side, it doesn't make sense to be completely blurring

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of the lines. And let's make allegiances with anyone. And all those things. Because we're seeing, as you've mentioned, the rotten fruits of that, as well. And the and the, and the truth, I think is somewhere in the middle, even though that's usually a fallacy. I think in this case, it's reality. But until next time.

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Oh, you want to have a last one?

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I'm just gonna conclude on the statement. They're very well known statement.

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He said, you know, we were the most humiliated people and a lot on it as for Islam, you know, if we seek on other than Islam will be humiliated. Again, why this doesn't this encapsulates the entire issue here. You we as an Ummah, whether in the western the Muslim world as a community, you know, micro macro where you want to talk it the more we watered down or compromise the deen of Islam and the the clear issues, the clear, it's not the great issue, the key issues, once you start compromising on, this doesn't mean nothing left for us in this life or the hereafter. And this is a very, very scary afterthought, which we hope that listeners and viewers exactly, like I was gonna

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say the same thing as well. And what like, that's what it seems just seems that provinces in America, what any, with all due respect, well, let's just we need to go a bit of a bit of a backbone, you know, we've had scenarios where you know, like I said, even shaking hands or something, so you can call it minor. But we refuse to even give that because we know once they take a finger, then it's going to be an arm and they're gonna they're just going to warn you. So brothers and sisters, if you're watching this in America, please study of religion. Well, if you don't study religion, when you're hit with these things, you're just all over the place. You know what last week

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I was speaking to one guy, he goes, Oh, I've got down on my ex Muslim. I said, Okay, we studied philosophy. How long you been studying for years? So how long have you been studying Islam? Oh, not really. Okay. How do you if you're not going to be moved out is going to be moved out? No, no, if you're not

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going to be your studying freest philosophy, you don't

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know why it's this is really annoying, because what we see is people pleasers actually, you see people do art in America and they're just trying to please the people. And like you said, well, lies success is from Allah. If you think you're going to join forces with LGB could you all of them put together one line you don't think success is in your hand, and in the in Serato? By Allah subhanaw taala talks about that. The Battle of

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the biggest army and sort of Toba name in the Battle of name Allah subhanho wa Taala voila, he this this is amazing, the Battle of butter and the Battle of honey and the Battle of butter they were 300 and something in number against an army of 1000 in the Battle of her name, and I think in the Tafseer it talks about Abubakar Adela and said that today no army can defeat us Yeah, and I lost it you turn back on your heels Yeah, brothers and sisters you know what that shows you it shows you success is not in numbers. Success is not how many people we know oh if we come and join forces with this guy and that guy our life and that's going to mean that you you're gonna be humiliated in a big

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number. That's what's gonna happen. So please have a backbone and inshallah study religion inshallah and success comes from Allah while I put this and do this in your head and look the rights of Allah subhanaw taala will lay emphasis on this the thing that disturbed me most about that thing was the brothers and sisters getting a cross on their head or something along those lines. What light it was unbelievable. The only one I'm so sorry. There's a priest there and I'm not going to run I'm so sorry. But like we have to emphasize on this. There's a priest that will like come in saying come your next we're going to go across Can you imagine and you're there thinking? Oh, you know how

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embarrassing if I said no.

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Like, who cares? Well, like please inshallah, learn the rights of Allah subhanaw taala and put it first inshallah.

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Till next time as we finish up the podcast,