Channel: Mohammed Hijab
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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah cattle. How are you guys doing? This is the 10th episode of The mph podcast, the most controversial Muslim podcasts out there. And I'm joined with a man who needs no introduction, the former CEO of IRA for many years, and three years, just under three.
And a man who's
delved into the philosophical realm, acquired
many post graduates now doing his third postgraduate and written a book called The Divine reality which has become a bestseller in the atheist and agnostic section, which I recommend to everybody listening, and the present, CEO of the Sapiens Institute, which is something you should all visit, Hamza Andreas sources slo alikum, how are you? Well, and ecomo salam Rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh hamdulillah Al Hamdulillah. I wanted to start off by mentioning that many people would have known you through the debate, you're done with Lawrence Krauss
and Krauss, that debate between you and Krauss was the biggest Muslim atheist debate on social media in history that I know of it, there's no bigger than it in terms of numbers. And it's probably the most impactful and influential debate between a Muslim and an atheist that's ever taken place. And right now, the views are just stacking up, people are continually watching it, it's become part of the historical narrative of the dour
or the propagation of Islam.
And it was a big deal. My first question is, what made you stop doing things like that? Why did you go into retirement from a debating perspective? Or did you go into retirement?
So very good question.
It's, it's a bit difficult to retrospectively go back and to pick out all the motivations and reasons so. So people listening, just take it with a pinch of salt. So
the first thing was, is I felt that the Muslim community online wasn't ready for debates. Because when the cross debate happened, there was such a kind of backlash from the atheist online community. Yeah. And it was obviously, unfortunately, negative in many instances. Yeah. And I felt that we didn't have people online at that time that were empowered enough to provide responses that you're on your own.
And when you have debates, especially from an Islamic ethical point of view, you need to understand the narrative, you want to push the narrative you want to defend, you want to and you want to basically ensure that the debate itself is going to create
something positive, rather than create more obstacles or, you know, make things worse, if you like, you want to make a positive impact. And at that time, for my remember, I felt that we weren't ready. Okay, from an online point of view.
The other reason was, is that debate should be should be used as a strategy for the dour in a way that creates something positive.
And if you do debates all the time, I think is pointless, because it's a means it's not an ends. But I think sometimes we've treated debates as an as an ends, which has never been the case in the Islamic tradition.
The other thing was, after the cross debate, some people didn't want to debate me.
For example, there was an academic in South Africa, who was accepted the debate he didn't know who was debating he thought was a Muslim guy. And the minute he found out was me, he pulled out and he just made his own excuses, right, Sam Harris as well. I don't think Sam Harris tried to price you out with it. Oh, well, that was that's not direct conversation with me. Apparently, his would you call it manager or something? and asked for some money, but I don't think somehow I knew was going to be me. Anyway, they didn't mention my name for I remember. But I remember having a discussion on email with Sam Harris when they mentioned him on Twitter. And he said, Why don't we have an email
blog type debate? And I was like, thinking about it, but he wants you to talk about Islamic law or jurisprudence, and that's not my area. So look, I want to talk about foundational aspects, right? And he said, Well, let's talk about this first and then we could talk about the other stuff from what I remember then after our communication dwindled, so it's not that he deliberately tried to price me out to be fair on him. That wasn't the case. He probably no would you would you be open to debating him? Sam Harris. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Miss. Let's do it, especially now when hopefully I've learned a little
A bit more in terms of how to articulate myself and maybe how to, you know, convey certain
theological and philosophical concepts maybe a little bit better, hopefully. Because it hasn't been seven years since the crafts debate. But yeah, so the main reason why I wasn't William Lane Craig, isn't that recently you done a response? Yeah, it was a quick kind of response about the maxim of perfection of the Divine. I felt that, you know, he, he can't we can't allow him to get away with the fact that he thinks that Allah subhanho wa Taala, as a concept for the Creator of the heavens and the earth is morally defective or deficient. This you can get away with that, especially since
mainstream biblical theology is full of issues, not only from a Trinitarian perspective, but also even concerning maximal love. Because how can God be maximally loving in the Christian tradition when he's not maximally forgiving? It just doesn't make sense. And we could sacrifice Yeah, we could unpack that philosophically, theologically, another time, but you know, hopefully, he who basically wants to have that he wants to have that discussion, because I feel some of our Muslim brothers who did discuss with him concerning this topic. Because they're not philosophically trained. Yes. Although they had good arguments, and they had good maybe information, because they're not
philosophically trained. There was some things that they missed out and they could have really, it only had like one or two debates. I think it was with Shabbir Ali, and with Jamal Badawi on this topic on the concept of God.
Worship added the issues of obviously, that his views are become more, more and more, heterodox. So he wouldn't be representing the bulk of Sunni Muslims showing you know about this more than I do. I don't really know the full history, I think I think he's aware of himself. Okay. Fair enough. So, but generally speaking, as someone who claims to represent the mainstream Muslim community, those two individuals, I don't think they did a good enough job from the point of view that would say that we could say that that debate was, you know, it presented undercutting defeaters to Craig's arguments here, although, you know, they did well in some areas, but I don't think it was good
enough. And I think Craig has,
he's an I see with humanity, by the way, because if anyone has watched my work, you know, I've used and abused Craig's work the Kalam cosmological argument, because he used an abuser from Alexandria. So any I say would say, with humility, because you know, we have done a lot from him. And he's been like an advocate for theism in general, as well. Many Muslims have benefited, right. So I do say this with that type of humility. But when it comes to theology, and the field philosophical aspects of his traditional Islamic tradition, he has got away with philosophical murder, the way he talks about a loss of Hannah water, and it shows that he's not very grounded in the Islamic tradition.
And just like Pontius Pilate.
So, so going back to your original question about having debates, debates have to be used carefully, bro. And it must be done with risk with it with wisdom. And obviously, you know me with Rama with compassion as well. And don't underestimate your armor, because compassion means you can be positively assertive as well. Yeah, people think you're compassionate, you're gonna be soft all the time. No, sometimes you may have a stance, and you're unwavering with that stance, and that sometimes is the most compassionate thing to do. Anyway. So this is your stance that you'd come back and you do debates, but the people have the the level of opposition now has to be of a certain
caliber, because debates in of themselves, especially in our contemporary context, they're not there, bro. To win over your opponent. I mean, let's be honest, you already have positions you want to defend, unless you're a super spiritual egoless guy, and you're willing to change your mind in front of 1000s of people and say, yo, right, I become Muslim. Do you see my point? You know, so it's there for the audience. It's there for wider narrative to show that some has an intellectual position. And that's why with the cross debate, the by virtue of me being on the stage, we already want as Muslims, because at that time, I had no academic credentials. And I articulate myself,
intellectually was someone who was a professor. And in many instances, instances throughout the debate, he didn't really have an answer. He showed his either arrogance, or his intellectual weakness and some stuff. Yeah, I'm not saying I bulldoze him philosophically, or, intellectually, I'm saying, We showed we had a position for any normal Muslim, even a Muslim studying at university, but like, wow, we have an intellectual tradition. We have an argument, and by virtue of us being there, so that creates a narrative you see.
And it's not it wasn't really about crafts. Yes, it would have been great for crafts to say, you know what, you're right. You know, there is no date you were there worship except Allah Mohammed. Hassan was one of messenger. You would be nice, nice if he said that. But that's not the main point of the debate. So we have to understand debates are there as a means to a certain goal, and we have to think very carefully what our goal is. So if you're always debating all the time, it creates the wrong narrative amongst the amongst the Muslim community on an offline it creates a narrative
This is the way to communicate Islam. And frankly, it's not. That's not the default position. If you speak to people about Islam, the default position should be, you're committed to someone's well being, you want to awaken the truth within them. Because we believe in the concept of the fitrah. The innate disposition, there is something that's created by Allah, and is within them. And it has some kind of primary knowledge, proton knowledge, in this case, a laser reality's worthy of worship. And there's other things, but these are the two main things, but the fitrah becomes clouded. So our job is to oncloud, the fitrah to awaken the truth that's already within them. How do you uncover the
fitrah? Primarily, you have to very good empathy. Primarily, you have to sometimes not always answer the question, but take someone on a journey. Sometimes you don't, sometimes it's not. It's not to be philosophical, sometimes it is to train be more empathic or more communicative or more compassionate, because that might be the thing that is is required to unplowed the innate disposition. So there are different ways on clouding the fitrah. To awaken the truth within, it's not always a philosophical argument. It could be something else. So the point is, when we're looking at the human being, as the human being is in a dour context, we know that they have a fitrah, and
it's clouded. So you have to ask your question, when you're interacting with them, when you listen with the intention to understand them, you're going to say you're going to try and find out right? Does that person now need a philosophical argument, a rational argument? Or do they need to think more? Maybe I should plant seeds in the heart and mind for them to go in this kind of existential journey? Maybe they just need the Quran? Maybe they do some revelation, maybe they need a hug, maybe they do pizza, we don't know. But we assume in the DAO sometimes because of this dour narrative or creating that this is like the only means or the the DAO has been so debates have become an ends
rather than a means. And we're doing it maybe too regularly. What what has what that's created is the way you you communicate with your fellow human being your brother and sister in humanity, you do it in a way that you just want to refute them, and show that you're right. But true dollar, bro, is not to show that you're right, per se all the time. It isn't because sometimes you have to show that you're wrong in order to create a weakness within them. Maybe they've come across, they've said something that has created a weakening within you thinking, you know what, yeah, okay, this has undermined Islam, but it's undermined the way I have articulated myself. Yeah, I need to apologize.
Maybe you being humble could create that awakening within them, and they could become Muslim, by virtue of your humanity. The point I'm trying to say is, we need to be smart with the debates. And we need to know why we're doing them. Is it for the Muslim community? Is it for the non Muslim community? Is it for the person that you're debating? Is it for the audience, and once you understand your true goal, then you should have your debate. So if I were to debate now, it would have to be, you know, have to have to be for the right reason. And I think someone like maybe, I don't know, Craig would be a good one, you know, because he's a giant in his own field. And he
pushes a certain narrative out there, and for someone a Muslim to discuss with him, that would have a huge impact on the ground, and intellectually, and will show that we have a very strong position. And it'll show the truth of Islam. And it will inspire lots of people, if you do it in a way that touch touches, moves and inspires people in order to continue sharing Assad compassionately, and intellectually and also at the same time, it strengthens the own emotion and faith, then that's the job done. So what's the email that he has to send on to request you? Oh, I don't think he's going to do that. To be honest. Why don't I he was
a sophomore with the with. He was undergrad, undergraduate. So he spoke with the undergraduate What's his name? cosmic skeptic. You know, why not? Someone's why someone's got three postgraduate? Well, maybe he should. And he's trained philosophically. Yeah. And he's written books. And he's, yeah, well, that's the point. Now, obviously, I mean, there was supposed to, excuse me, maybe I should finish my third postcard. And maybe after that we'll see. Or maybe, or maybe I should write something in response to maybe his key key points against Islam. And maybe it would encourage him to maybe want to take a position and, and articulate his understanding a lot of people. I think the
thing that what we have as an advantage is that, despite the fact they've been out of action for a long time, you still appeal to the 18 to 35. And, frankly, we're giving him access to a lot of Muslim youth. Yes. So it's he's got a lot to gain from this. I mean, his ideas if he's speaking truth, if he's speaking, if he feels like Muslim, young people are saving in his eyes, then it would make sense when I think he does. I mean, I think he does. He does have his own strategy, that's for sure. But I mean, he hasn't really focused on Muslims. I think he's more because he's showing platforms the life of David would be interesting. Yeah. So there's something there. There is Yeah.
What What do you think about that? Because if he's if he's sharing platforms with David Wood
say about him.
Oh, bro, he's kidding, evangelical. I mean, that's about as he is he hostile towards Muslims?
Is he hostile? I don't know, he comes across as a Christian gentlemen, that's for sure.
I think he might, my kind of assessment and I'm not saying this as like, you know, this is 100% true, but my kind of general assessment of his perception of Islam is he scared? I think he fears that Islamic tradition. He fears its intellectual tradition, because he knows we have intellectual tradition, he acts as the works of God, right. And even when it comes to the concept of maximal love, I mean, Allah ghazali, he wrote in his 36 volume, in his ear, in his revival of religious sciences, about that Allah is loving and why he's loving and all of that narrative, you know.
So, you know, his own scholar, answered his questions about the concept of God in Islamic tradition. He knows we have a rich tradition. He knows we have a rich philosophical tradition, and I think he's scared to give the right type of people platform in order to convey the veracity of Islam. I think it's fair for it. Why? Because the way he presents Islam sometimes for me, is not the way the same way he represents the atheist narratives in the atheist community. Yeah.
So for me, why is he doing that, for example, he always repeats this idea that Islam, it's not about Allah's mercy and grace, it's about your good deeds. But we know that's not the case. Our good deeds are not taking us to paradise. Very famous Hadith. Yeah, your deeds are not taking you to paradise. What takes you to Paradise is the mercy of Allah. Right? It's a very basic, you know, even seven year olds know this in the Islamic tradition, but the way he articulates
the Islamic tradition is an annuity away, oh, it's just about deeds, your deeds. It's like, you know, you know, you do you see my point, yeah, but it's like it because he misrepresents the Islamic tradition as a transactional relationship with the divine as if the human being and the creator the like, almost co equal business partners, and you give something to the creator and he gives you something back with a bit of interest. that's never been the the concept of worship and the concept of salvation and mercy and grace in the Islamic tradition. Yeah. But he represents the Islamic tradition in that way. Even the way he pronounces the word Quran is very ugly phonetics of the
Quran. He said, read letters.
Really name Craig needs to read Listen, no look, and and what else? So?
Yeah, even the his understanding of the concept of God in Islamic tradition.
Even for example, I mentioned this in one of the videos that he did when he was talking about God does not like the center, he does not like he doesn't have universal mercy or love. And I'm like, I mean,
this is basic, basic stuff. And so why would he deliberately do that? I think maybe he's playing with the ignorance of his audience with a Christian audience. Or maybe that's genuinely what he was taught in his theology, theological school. Or maybe he feels that the Muslim community
is ignorant, which is an insult. Yeah, no, I don't think I just think, as you said, and because he's doing that, but not because if you're really nuanced, with one community need to be nuanced with the other to be consistent. You know, what I find? Yeah, I do get you're saying I think there's a lot to be said about
his approach. Like, for example, this, this tripod, a three stage cosmological argument that he puts forward, that everything that begins has begins to exist has a cause the universe began to exist every investor cause I think he's slightly amended it now by similar Yeah, yeah.
There's a few things number one in the book that he gets us from his alias, is called, is cooled liquid to solid without too hot. And if you read that book, from beginning to end, he refutes concepts like you know, the Trinity and not maybe like policy ism, he uses arguments that would would render his theology invalid, and more of what I find interesting, he doesn't have access to the Arabic language. So that's why he probably hasn't captured that. And I'm sure he's seen it in because I saw his footnotes in his book 1979 book,
the cosmological argument, and when I looked at an English translation, he cites a French translation a lot of time. So when he saw I'm sure he's read the book,
at least a secondary resource was translated. But moreover, look, if that is to have the philosopher he's, I mean, it will be crazy to think that, like ezeli, would have endorsed the theology that that Craig endorses. And moreover, what's even more interesting is that as a finish to Greek, but he'll be like, yeah, I disagree with him on those points. But yet another point No, but the point is, this is that if you take the argument to its logical extreme, yeah, then if you apply it for example, if you say there's a necessary being, which is what we will do, yes, what he refers to what what
As Ellie refers to God as he's not what he's talking about one way people will do it. And what was the what Craig would say and his version of the Trinity, where he gives the the example of the three headed dog?
Is that I mean, is there three necessary beings? Is the father necessary being the suddenness or being the Holy Spirit necessary? So the argument that we're using can be used if we take it to this endpoint, logical endpoint to refute his theological concepts like the Trinity. Yeah, sure. Yeah, for sure. And and so especially when we say legible will do the trick isn't necessarily being also Moreover, like LFSR us a nice book called testosterone was to him, yes. Which this book is basically saying that a lot of his arguments come directly from the Koran. And he's trying to pluck out arguments from the Quran. So the kind of reasoning how, how is Craig not sure that he's using
Quranic arguments? Because if as Ali is saying, I'm taking my arguments from the Quran, yeah. But I'm Craig is taking his argument from his alley, then there must be some parts of the argument that Craig is using. Yep. That could have been from the Quran directly that that he's using to defend his so the irony of it is that if we pulled the strings together, it could be the case that Craig is using the Quran. That's true to defend the Bible in what he would say is yes, but the Greek philosophers or theologians they Yes, work for maybe Jewish philosophers. True. That's true. Filipinos, Filipinos, john Yanis. Yang is good name. The john Yanis. Filipinos. Yeah, yeah. So And
not only that, he would also argue that fine, maybe the general Filipinas from my readings of him, and I've cited him in my book as well, as well as the Hellenistic philosophers that he refers to as having carried this.
This theory like if you look at, for example, Aristotle and Plato, yeah, they don't have this tripartite, everything that begins to exist has a cause the universe began to exist, definitely invest as a cause. With the same and this is an important caveat. arguments for infinity that William uses. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, so if you look at the physics and the metaphysics of Aristotle, he doesn't make this argument at all. Moreover, john floppiness, where does he I mean, he talks about infinity at length, yes, he talks about infinity length, but this tripartite thing of infinite begins to this has a cause the universe
began to exist, therefore the universe has a cause. And, and particularly as early as discussion of nothingness, those discussion of on nothingness directly you can see where it can come from the Quran and Allah Coronavirus Shamoon callicoon chapter two verse 35, you can see that the influence of the Quran has his arguments. if if if it's true that
and this is his argument is as if
I'm not saying by the way that I said he did not was not influenced by Aristotelian tradition. He clearly was. Yeah. And and also obvious Indian tradition, he was clearly influenced by both I'm not saying this. But if it's the case, that the cosmological argument that William Lane Craig is using is one which has its roots in the, in the holistic period and continues to have its roots in the Christian world before it reached the Muslims, then why use the Kalam? why not just use john flow original Filipinas argument because he finds it more robust? It's more robust, right, but it's been tightened up. And the question now is, when it was tightened up to what extent has it been tightened
up because of the Quranic discourse agreed that what he would say is fine. The Quranic discourse is just portraying a rational argument. And Craig would say that he adopts a ministerial approach to reason. So he cites Luther, I think that there's a magisterial approach to reason and administer approach. And the magisteria approach is where reason dominates the gospel or the biblical Christianity. And the minister is that you use reason to support the gospel. So he would say so use neurons. What was it once again? Yeah, he might argue a an argument that seems rational, I would use it in a ministerial Well, that's an interesting admission if that's the case, if it was a minister,
I would say that's really interesting because and Okay, he doesn't care about reasonable because he believes that he has arguments but he believes that the reason he believes in biblical Christianity mainstream Christianity is because of the inner witness of the Holy Spirit. That's that's his main i get i get a pump all I'm saying to him is what would say to him but I do see your point. My point is that look within the Islamic tradition, in the Quran itself has arguments for God's existence, and as arguments for why polytheism is false.
It had been telling me in his book, masala todos Allah Allah in that he quotes the best arguments and I agree with him fully on this here are the arguments from the Quran. Absolutely. We only use other arguments that are outside the Quran. Extra Quranic arguments as supplements to the foundation argument nor I would even argue bro, the best arguments even if the universally valid, which all chronic arguments universally valid anyway, see you think that extra chronic.
If they're good that you can infer them from the chronic disease.
And yeah, yeah, I truly believe that so I would say even the audio from consciousness yeah the argument from reason even the argument from x y&z you could infer directly or indirectly from the Yes, in actual fact, but this should be our guiding principle in this tradition. Yes. Because if you have an argument that you cannot infer directly or indirectly, from the Quran and the Sunnah, and the scholars, then you shouldn't be using that argument because inevitably will be inconsistent is going to come and bite you in the logical posterior. Yeah, so that was that's very important, because that's the difference between blame where the Kalam if you like, and and Calum, that is
fine. Yes. So the comma is fine is can I find my principles, my premises misstatements argumentation in the in the way of the scholars directly or indirectly Can I infer it in some way? Yeah, if you're there, then you're safe. Yeah, if you're using extra Quranic and you can't link it to anything in our tradition, you shouldn't have use it for example, it will be inconsistent, like when I was reading, and this is a book that's quite interesting one will even tell me it shall have
aka the Swanee this keytab is basically ashari book by him telling me that the Sahaba and he was talking about the the argument from contingency basically the necessary existence argument. He doesn't disagree with the argument. He does not disagree with the argument. He says it's just long, long winded this is the problem, his issue with it as long winded. He he prefers kind of everything that begins with has a course he prefers that to talking about necessarily just he does even given to me. He says that what why that why don't you just say,
Yanni, instead of talking about
the necessary being and
proving the monkey from the ledger or the ledger from the monkey not necessary from the possible, why not just go Why not just talk about the cause and the effect? Sure. And that akula
Kumar, la Buddha when he says that every cause has an effect. Everything that begins to exist has a cause? Yes. And he gives like cosmological examples, he says that's that you can use that and it's not against the Quran, etc, etc. He has some issues. Yeah. So instead what I'm saying is that even Tamia seems to say, Okay, this is a good argument. But yeah, for my understanding the see the three main schools of creed, they don't disagree with the argument from contingency. They don't disagree. That the concepts of mumkin algebra Jordan and weiterbildung legible, existing and contingent and stuff like that. So yes, yes. Oh, those concepts are not alien they in the credo books, yes. So what
what I was gonna say is that his issue with it is this and I spent some time researching this matter, even to me, his position is as follows. He says that any argument is not an offer an is not a good argument to use. It's not the best argument to use, I should say, it's not the best argument to use. Yeah, you can still use it. He said, you can still use it. Like, for example, is called Adamo tree in the Greek and the response to Greek logicians. He says that, for example, is it using the the argument for contingency that I use quite often, it's a good argument to use with those who are philosophically trained or those who have an interest in philosophy. If they're if they're
interested in that it's a good argument to use, but he says the best argument to use in MSL is the best argument to use is that we should not hold on we will you create from nothing or did something create yourself, etc, which are staple parts, which are staple parts of the cosmological argument and I get that, but there is also an interpretation of verses that that that those verses are not there to provide an argument at all those verses are there just to be a means to awaken your fitrah? Yeah, that it's it's spelling out the obvious, right, right, right. And that would be even even to me as primary position in these verses, because it's not necessarily there to actually postulate a
philosophical argument, although you can. And that's the beautiful, dynamic, multi layered nature of the book of Allah subhanho wa Taala. Because even if you look at the structure of the questions in chapter 52, verse 35, to 36 there's even no direct conclusion it's implied. Yeah. And that's, it's like almost like a spiritual awakening, a spiritual theological ploy to try and create an awakening the client, you see where you think you from nothing and you crazy, you create yourself? Yes, they have logical philosophical validity the points but primarily there to awaken that truth is not just one diverse and sort of
use this road to with someone in Qatar, you were an atheist? Yeah, I think he came from China. And I used the questions from the Quran. He started from being an atheist that ended up being someone who was like a theist, just by virtue basically of those questions because awakening awakened something within you. Because sometimes we're very externally looking. We don't ask ourselves those very questions. The point is, this is so you're right, those questions that they have, there's a philosophical argument in there. We have an article called the Quranic argument, because this is another webinar on that topic, which details the logic behind it. However, even Timmy would have
argued that primarily is there just to create that a weakening even to provide a really strong, robust argument, just say, look, yeah, he's not he's not even to me. It wasn't a great fan of syllogisms in that sense, but he is like, when I say arguing, I'm not talking about like, premise premise. But another thing is, this is that
So you've got that so you've got in the Quranic discourse you have rational arguments, the the like of which will bring you from atheism, or should, at least in theory bring from atheism to theism. And then you have something which destroys polytheism. Yes and and and this is something you don't find the biblical discourse. So for example, Chapter 33 verse nine one I think is the last one that says, Mr. Holloman weather isn't what can allow Manila isn't like that Bakula? holla, holla, holla, bah, bah, bah, bah, that Allah hasn't taken any sun and he hasn't got he hasn't taken a lord with him. If that was the case, then they would have taken anything from what they created, and that they
would have tried to outstripping of one another in power. So in other words, there can't be more than one omnipotent. And there can't be one more than one ultimate creator. dominant will? Yeah, so the father can't be the ultimate creator than the Son and the Holy Spirit. All does it. This is actually you could take this from an explanation, a commentary of academia which put the argument from exclusion. Yeah, tomorrow. Yeah, baby path of exclusion. Yeah, I use it in my book. Yeah. If you think about it, if the best way to prove that there's only one God
is to show Okay, well, the quality is you got ultimate power ultimate will ultimate creative capacity or ability. You can you have more than one of those. So it's a nice exclude exclusion. So, yeah, so I mean, in conclusion, no, in conclusion, I'm trying to get Craig Wright a bit further, maybe he would have been, maybe he would have realized that the Islamic tradition? Or maybe he does, that's why he does i think i think what that's what and that's why I said he may he might be fearful because it was the Islamic intellectual tradition is quite forceful warming forth, I don't mean in a negative way. I mean, it has intellectual force. It's robust. But more than that, the arguments like
manner, the exclusion argument, which is more than one verse in the Quran, the argument for God's existence, all of these things have their place in the Quran. Yes, Craig is not going up on the podium and using biblical verses to prove his Gods exists. Okay? He doesn't do that at all. It's not like it's not even mixing Bible biblical verses, and the arguments from the Bible with with with arguments from philosophy, which is fine, if he did that, he is basically relying upon an argument from the Muslim world, whether he wants to try and disguise that and say that, okay, they took it from the, from the Greek tradition or wherever it's true that they were influenced by the Greeks is
true that it was mentioned that, but it's also the case that they refine their ideas as per, and they had to filter it through the Quranic lens. And that's something that I don't think he spends enough time giving credit for their wisdom. That's a very good point. That's my point. And so if he knows that that's the case, that the Quran offers the, the, if you like, the inspiration of his inspirational force, which has helped the main his main teacher,
so once again, we'll go to the point of To what extent Now, can we ask the question, is he using the Quran to protect the Bible?
Seriously? That's a good point. Yeah. So that's my question to him. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. But in fairness to him, he does mention allegory a lot. And he gives him that kind of, yes, of course. But, you know, but given the fact that he does, I think he has that quasi realization within him that he has relied on the Islamic tradition in some way in otherwise you just be if you took what Jonathan mentioned him and that's it made mention Augustine. Yeah, he's written works on this. Augustine has extensive works on proven gods.
On the topic of Craig, that we moved on from debates, which we didn't really discuss at length, but what would you say about Craig's
Cerebus? Dog? Three headed dog example. For the Trinity. It's not even just about what I would say. It's about what the academics have said, like, you know, this I was looking at, I was looking at some of the psychological webinar the other day, yes. about this. And like his he had this emotional get a picture of this or something. But basically, he said mythical three headed dog rescue service, yeah. Service and mythical three headed dog. And he says, this journey is like this, you know, you've got three headed dog. And each of them are different people, or you have one body. And three. You have one dog. Yeah.
three sets of conscious. Sorry. He says, Look is one dog. Yes, that's one dog. But it's three in one. Yes.
Because the concentrate is one essence in three personas. Yes. Yeah. That's the idea. So he's trying to say look at this mythological character here as a representation of the Trinity. Yes. My issue is this. My and it's not even my issue is Husker II, I'm not sure Snyder has one of them said that. If you've got overlapping bodies, it's just three dogs overlapping. I would say I would add to it. If a Siamese twins are you gonna say that's one person? You're not gonna say that's one person. If you have twins that are joined by the hip, you just have one person, you got three headed dog? Can they think three different things at three different times? Can they oppose one another? Can they
contradict one another in cognition? Can they bite one another? Can they liquid? Never can they decide to do different things to each other? Yes, again. So we're talking about three different wills and this goes back to our example from the Quran. Mata Holloman. Well, it didn't work. kenema Manila is another Abu Dhabi. bahala colada.
Allah, that Allah hasn't taken a son and he didn't have any God with him even if that was the case, then what would have happened is they would have tried to outstrip one another and power. Yes. And they would have
sorry, take it take from the creations what they own and outstripped one another in power. So you can't have three sets of consciousness with different wills, you have different wills sense of consciousness, and cool that three different people, but in one, that's a contradiction and something he can't get away from, which is why one of them, I think Snyder said, this is fraught with an abysmal
conception of God, with policies and polytheism. Yeah, for me, this make it more simple. He's explaining a mystery with a mystery. And the logical dog is embarrassing. Why would you use a dog is no other. Like, you have no, your God, you're using God, you're using a dog to talk about God? Yeah, so 300 wives. But the other thing is, he's on the question, in order for it to be a really good example, in my view, for to have, you know, free to extend into other areas of the theology is can one of the dogs not be incarnated? into a cat?
Right, this this is this this and retain his 100% 100% cap.
But you get the plate.
But so and then still be the same one. Yeah. But this, for me is probably the biggest problem that Trinity which you address in your webinar, which was the incarnation, the problem of incarnation, yes. Because you had before the sun came into human flesh, as Jesus and Jesus now became fully man and fully God, before that happened, you had the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. And then when incarnation happened, you had now the Father, and the Son, but the son now is fully man, fully God, it's nonsense. And then you have the Holy Spirit. So you have a change in the who ness of God as such as the wholeness of who God is. So, pre incarnation, you had the son, the Father, the Son, and
the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, post incarnation, you have the Father, you have the son, who is now fully man, fully God. And then you have the spirit. I mean, so there is a fundamental change in the humanists of God who God is, logically you would argue, there is a God, pre incarnation, and now another type of God post incarnation logically, because they're both different than who they are different. Yes. And that, for me is one of the fundamental issues. I don't see how any. I mean, look, I think of just as Jesus is 100% man and 100% God, but what it means to be a man is 100% different to what means to be God. That is a contradiction. I mean, I don't even think you need to
go further. And that's why the Quranic arguments are so beautiful. When it says, Can I get called any time they used to both eat food? In other words, they're mortal. You can't be mortal and immortal at the same time? Is that why would you would argue that the Church Fathers like Tertullian in origin and others, yes. They never really had the concept of the Trinity as we have it today. Yeah. COVID, co, eternal, co eternal and co equal? Yeah. What are they doing on this matter, to be honest, and it's been two years on now more than two years on this on 2 million just on my channel, almost on my chest and English language and his channel. Think about the language was translated as
a lot of people that have watched it Christians, and I've been looking at some of their intellectual responses. Frankly, this is the struggle. This is the main argument, historical argument I put forward, then the first 100 years, you didn't find the same conception of three co equal and co eternal deities.
And this is the argument has been made by many people in academia like Jane de Kelly, and others.
This show is available does this show what the key implications implication is that it's not a natural reading from the text? It's not a natural reading of the biblical text, and also a natural reading of Jesus's teaching. Yeah, exactly. And also that those how the development of the Trinity, it was developed as a Roman developer, you can even add to it can be as beautiful. But like I said before, really and truly, all of the arguments that we need are in the Koran, because everything that we've talked about has also has foundations. Yeah. Like we just said, like the polytheism thing, how you can prove disprove that atheism, he can disprove that. And this thing as well, where
Well, last point, as I said, something really beautiful I forget skips a lot of people's minds, but I thought about that, because I saw a debate between James White and Adnan Rashid. Okay. And James White had the audacity to come up on onpoint and said that you got really good arguments, they're better than the ones in the Koran, and others, you've made the same argument I made in the back as if it would, which is that for the first few 100 years? Yeah, in fact, he was, I think one of the first people to make that argument. And then she was
brilliant idea in the first 300 years, you don't find the same conception. Post Constantinople, for example, for 81. Or let's say even post Nicene Creed 325, whatever it was. You find that
development as a development activity and and James White said, you know, this is something which is development. But the truth is this is that I sorry, this is something is better than the argument that you're making is better than the arguments not on the Francaise. You it makes this argument because the what the Quran says
you'd like you'd like you don't want to live in a cafe katella? No, this was in chapter nine, verse 29. overstate sorry, where it says that they are copying, ie the Christians. Yeah, the ones who say that Jesus,
the deification of Jesus and so on. They are copying the polytheistic scenes of those who preceded them in time. Wow. And I thought about that for a second. I thought that was I mean, that was a copying I thought. Just like the policies of the old they had this
synthetic religion of policy isms. Yes. So to these people, for example, you can easily make this narrative and to be honest, it makes argument. And to be honest, this, the historical record shows this, that they absorbed the ideas of the Greeks, the mythological ideas of the Greeks.
They absorb the policy ideas of the Greeks, and they incorporated it into the Christianity of the day. And that's why you find that development, like Justin Martyr, I mentioned this individually debate and others, this extracts of them speaking about other mythological beings, and how they've had discussions about that, so on and so forth. I can't predict this another time. But the point is, is that you can easily make the argument that the mythologies of the day for the Romans, or the Greek mythologies, which was adopted by the Romans, was incorporated and synthesize with the Christian of the day. And that's how you got this model of the tree. In other words, what lots of
pantalla saying is that in the Quran, the argument is, these people are copying the polytheists of old who, who had mythologies and had this and had different kinds of policy isms. So how did the Christians do that by adopting their ideas through the Roman Empire? Who is the who carried these ideas, mythological ideas to the Muslims? So I feel like even that argument, yeah, which we're using Now, that's a chronic argument. Sure, sure, I find that all these things are chronic arguments. But I think one thing that is missing though
habibie, in our discourse with the Christians,
is that we're not really addressing the Christian as the human being. Because many Christians, bro, do you think they really care about intellectual arguments per se, we live in a post kind of Christian culture now, where what I mean by that is because of secularism and liberalism, and because of the reformation,
intellectual arguments for the average Christian is like, they see
Christianity as a faith. And they see as a relationship with God. And that's why the average Christian, if they call themselves a Christian, there'll be talking about things like, you know, I have a loving relationship with God. You know, I feel God's presence within me, I'm walking with God, I have the Holy Spirit with me the inner witness all of this type of language. And I think we could have greater efficacy in our in our communication with Christians, if sometimes we pick the arguments for the right time and the right person. Yes, there's a time for dismantling the Trinity. There's a time for talking about all of these issues. But there's other things that the Quran
mentions that sometimes we don't mention, right? So for example, the way I like now like to talk to the average Christian, or even someone who's a priest, or someone who's closer to the tradition is not merely focusing on these rational aspects, but it's to focus on what you call the relational aspects of the relationship. So for example, I would say,
in your mind, God is maximally perfect, right? His names and attributes are to the highest degree possible, they have no deficiency, they have no flaw.
So do you believe that human sin limits God's mercy?
Right? Do you believe God is unfair and unjust? No.
So do you want to have a relationship with a lord who is loving and maximally forgiving? And maximally just absolutely, well, this is the Islamic Lord, this is this, this is Allah subhanho wa Taala. This is your Lord is the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Because we believe that forgiveness is not based on something outside of your relationship with the divine. It's you just seeking His forgiveness and returning to him and Allah will forgive you no matter what scene you've done. If you ask for forgiveness, Allah will forgive you right? There is no requirement of something happening external to you or something happening external to your relation with him in order for you
to be forgiven.
Isn't that maximal forgiveness. And we could go, we could unpack that more then we could say
Do you want to relate yourself with a being that is maximally perfect concerning His justice? Of course, do you believe God is unjust? No. So the whole understanding of the sacrifice of Jesus and the atonement is not fundamentally unjust, right?
So this Yes, there's a bit of an argument here, but you're referring to the one and the desire to connect with, you know, a maximal perfect understanding of the Divine. I think that is missing sometimes really those type of aspects with the you know, when between with it with our brothers and sisters in the Christian tradition, yeah. We need to focus more on Allah Rama, His mercy, his forgiveness, His justice, his maximal perfection. Because if you were to take just the description of Allah subhanho wa Taala, in terms of his nature, and his names and attributes, and presented to the Christian, without the Arabic baggage, if you like, they'll say, yeah, this is the Lord, I'm
worshiping. This is the Lord that I want to worship. And then when you make the realize, in actual fact, the current mainstream biblical understanding of the Divine is actually not maximally perfect concerning His forgiveness and justice, that would slowly punt that spiritual seed and yes, intellectual seed to some degree, but the spiritual seed to be like, Well, my heart is yearning to connect with a maximally perfect Lord, my lord is perfect. My creator is perfect. Human sin doesn't limit God's mercy, right. That is when you know, God is not unjust to his, his, his his servants. Those are powerful spiritual concepts as well that we need to engage with the Christian in a way
that allows them to take a natural journey from
Christianity to Islam. And that I think, is missing sometimes in Adi with the Christians, you know, that kind of spiritual aspect, even for example, bro, you know, there's a claim that, you know, Christians have a loving relationship with the divine. Now, my point is, if anyone studies Islamic spirituality, and I don't mean that in a postmodern sense, I mean that in a true classical sense, the concept of Salah for example, prayer, the word Salah comes from the word to connect, what do we do in the Salah? Who are we? How do we relate what is our state of being? The things that we say our supplications when we're in such deep frustration, we're closest to our Lord, You know, these inner
dimensions of our worship the vicar, you know, everything has a Polish and the Polish of the heart is the remembrance of God. You know, what is the good, what is remembrance of God, these things are supplication. sadaqa, all of these spiritual things that we have in our tradition, that are very deep and profound, and they help us traverse the path of connecting with Allah and loving Allah subhanho wa Taala. These things are extremely important and then missing in our narrative of the Christian sometimes, yeah, we focus on us on abstract theology, which should be the case but we need to have we mentioned earlier about the fitrah we don't know what's clouding the fitrah of that
Christian. We don't know what's clouding the innate disposition of that Christian. It could be, you know, the understanding of maximal perfection concerning who Allah is, it could be that they just haven't as had access to, you know, what is Islamic worship and the inner dimensions of Islamic worship, that would create a massive awakening within them, because Christians fundamentally are all about, I just want to worship a loving Lord. But you need to show them how Allah is the maximally loving law in maximum forgiving Lord, right? In especially in contrast to the biblical understanding that if we achieve that in a very kind of compassionate way, with wisdom, we could, we could have
more efficacy in the Dow as well, as well as using all the other things that we mentioned. I thought I'd mention that because I think is important. Yeah, I think that's a good point, actually. And and using the atonement, as well as a point of just juxtaposition or contrast. Yeah, I think is good.
Speaking about something else, now, a lot of people have gained weight, because it's locked down. Yeah, I have it. Oh, yeah. And how's your training? What am I doing that, so I'm doing a bit of boxing, and I'm doing band training. So instead of weights, you use bands, so that they're like professional type of bands. And if you do the three, if you follow the three contractions, the muscular contractions, the isometric, essentially cannot concentrate, because sometimes when people lift weights, or they do exercises, like they're just doing that, so it's like usually one contraction. But what you want to do is they see you doing bicep training, not that you should do
much bicep training with because not is not. I mean, what kind of functional training is bicep training apart from showing off here. I mean, it's good for gripping and holding for sure. But anyway, the point is, if you don't do bicep training, you want to take these two seconds up. And then when you reach the top, hold it maybe for half a second isometric contraction. Then
slowly bring it down.
Slowly bring it down. And you have all the three contractions, the isometric, the essential
eccentric, and what happens you have more
muscular damage in terms of the fibers. So you could grow more, and you probably get stronger, hopefully. And you're using more fibers. So you're maximizing the usage of the muscle. So you'd have more quality muscle and quality strength than maybe quality endurance. And that's why you may have to lower your ego and remove the, the weight that you're using. Because you're controlling it two seconds up,
then hold isometric, then the other contraction, don't just drop it slow down. And that's the one of the best ways of developing strength endurance muscle, but it depends what your it depends what your goals are, like, I don't think your goal should be anyone's goal should be
purely just gaining just gaining muscle man, what's your What are your goals? My goals at the moment is to maintain health at the moment. But generally speaking, you should, you know, as a father, you should be the most dangerous person in the world because you've got so much to protect. Obviously, we don't seek these circumstances of compassion.
if someone thinks that compassion is not defending your family than that person is a coward. Yeah, rule compassion is doing the right thing at the right time. is compassion to resolve your dog, isn't it? Of course, compassion? Yeah. So what what does it mean to be a real man? Oh, my God, what does it mean going out? in the open?
Is this this isn't?
What is the such thing? As a man? Yes, there is, of course. But look, you know, sometimes when we ask these questions, we have to first ask what does it mean to be human being when even
some people say that robots are gonna be
another video, but the point is,
you know, you need to basically be able to defend yourself, you know, we don't ask for trouble. We don't want to be violent. We don't want to show off, we do want to be arrogant, and makes it very clear in the plan for us not to, you know, to walk with humility, and not to be arrogant. But you know, we should have, we should try and maximize the gifts that Allah has given us, I have a kind of spiritual dimension to this thing. Because I think it's very important to understand that Allah has given you gifts, you don't know what those gifts are, per se. Because this is the knowledge of Allah, do you really know your limits? Do you know because this is usually
based on your own story and your drama, right? So I have limited experiences. I have limited ideas and perspectives. And I use that as a lens to interpret the present in the future. And they use that to impose my own limitations on myself. But do I truly know my own limitations? Like I've achieved stuff, gentleman, basically, bro, my dad said to me something one time he said to me, like, I'd say I say the story. So to your show, and I might have my dad on the podcast as well.
But I went, we went to IKEA.
And you know, sometimes when you buy, like these things like tables, and whatever, you have to fit them yourself. Gentle come by, yes.
That was like, I think it was a table or like cupboard or something like that. from IKEA. He looked, he opened the packet, and he just saw the bits there. And it goes,
as you put a pocket like he put the box in the car, and you drove back to IKEA.
And then you get and then the guy. His name was Michael Yeah. I was with my dad. And he goes, why am
I returning it?
was a good idea. And he said, Tim, a man's got to know his limitations.
You but some of those things are so communicate but together is a laser for it's not worth it. You don't know for sure. But yeah, so strength and functional goals is like, you know, we should be as free as possible. We don't know why limitations are and keep on trying to go noise limitation. That's true. But the spiritual aspect of this is we should do things with sand with excellence, which is trying to maximize the gifts that Allah has given you and not doing that I think is a form of ingratitude.
To vasilopita Yeah, of course. Absolutely.
Yeah, if you slaughter Yeah, of course, no, I fusillo maybe an animal or something. Yeah, make sure you do. So it's in
the 40 an hour we so
what that teaches us is, you know, try and maximize your abilities to the extent where you're trying to find out what your limitations are. limitations are not the limitations that you've given yourself, but the ones that Allah has given you. Because what we're limited in some way. Yeah. And don't, you know, allow your own past experiences and your limitations to impose limitations on you. Because that is you basically saying
God, you're wrong. I'm right. I know where my limitations are no, Allah knows where they are, you don't know where they are. And that that ignorance is actually empowering because it gives you a new realm of possibility to try and achieve what you what you should achieve. And always striving in my view, especially in a physical intellectually and physically, and keep on striving with real good hard work is, is a form of gratitude to Allah subhanaw taala. Because if you say, I'm going to stop here, you're basically saying to Allah, I'm not utilizing the gifts that you give that you've given me, I find that anesthetic, I really find that anesthetic. I was like, you know, sometimes people
just want to win the race. I don't want to win the race. I want to do I want to maximize what I could do, if that means losing. So what about other people? You know, once the Curia my son, he was in the scouts Olympics, and he was going to go for a run I gave him with this kind of like philosophy or philosophical stuff, right. And, you know, I tried to show to him that, you know, this is about you worshiping Allah, because he's giving you gifts, find out what they are maximize them to, you know, you know, you know, I'm trying to say him, it doesn't matter if you win or lose, because if you win, if look, you know, I'm relatively fast. If I race we can do 100 amazing. Oh, I
don't know. But I'm not slow. Yeah. So if I race like seven year olds, I'll beat them. Or I've won we're gonna do time on the back. Give me a medal. No, cuz who've I've raced. But if I raced, for example, Usain Bolt, and I lose all the time, but I'm always increasing my speed. And I'm always
improving on my time. That's true success for me, right. So I tried to give that to the courier. And you know, when he ran, he came second. And I saw him in the zone, as if the world he didn't care about the world. He was in the zone, he had the foam. And when he stopped, and he looked at me as if he wanted to say to me, you know, he found something in himself they never found before. Hmm. And that's why you could link even things actually with intellectual endeavors and physical endeavors to spirituality to Allah Subhana Allah to Allah because Allah created you didn't create yourself. So Allah knows where your limitations are not you. So if you don't know your limitations, that is that
ignorance. And this is very rare that ignorance is empowering, this type of ignorance is empowering. Because it means that you will have a new realm of possibility to try to achieve what you can and try your utmost best with the idea that you don't know what your limitations are, don't impose them on yourself, right? And you try your best and whatever happens is because of the last panel within and that is really empowering for me. So I even deal with things like physical things and sometimes are treated with intellectual endeavors or whatever the case may be. And if you have that mindset of x and doing things with with excellence and trying to maximize the gifts that you're given that for
me is connected to gratitude, because I love giving those gifts don't go halfway. So Allah I find it really anesthetic immoral. Honestly,
I just find it immoral. And when you go to the gym, don't be on your phone, texting, who knows and,
and, you know, inspire yourself, inspire other people, you know, be, you know, do things with excellence, you know, try your best, you know, when you walk into the gym, obviously, don't show off, you know, do for the sake of Allah as best as you can. But have that ethical sign and people want to be like you. And because it's connected to Tao, he does connect to Allah because Allah is your Rob, he's your Creator, He created you. He knows your limitations. You don't so and he's giving you gifts, maximize them, strive, continue. And some people find that crazy. But you got to do it, man, you got to do it. Like so. My Fitness goes all you got to be fit. Yeah, you have to be prepared
any scenario. We don't advocate violence or vacations. But you know, you have to be prepared for everything. And even running away. Just be Yeah.
Be the best which is, which is what I think you most will
be the best possible version of yourself. Yeah. For the sake of Allah. You know, the concept of Santa we spoke about, and it's important to be like that, you know, because I think we've lost that though. Now it's about like, with all due respect, I see some of our brothers with the YouTube stuff and their fitness stuff. I cringe man. Don't have got anyone down here, but I just find it. I just don't find it to be like what bodybuilders Yeah, I just, you know, I find bodybuilders extremely unhealthy. The reason? Look,
let me just be Be honest.
So, you know, I used to be like a bodybuilder bro. I used to be 119 athletes to work. No. I used to be 119 kilos. Oh my god. I used to bench 170 kilos a year and
people used to think I think that I was on like drugs. It was more natural. Yeah.
So I do understand the psychological aspect of growth. And because it's one of the key motivations of a human being, you're not necessarily doing it to show off and 119 kilos, you're not showing off anything apart from you're just fat. Yeah, you just be
So, I do appreciate this psychological side, it's not just about ego, you're on the podium, and
it's about growth. But some of us we've done it to the point where just aesthetics gains, gains. I had one brother, you know, is supposed to be practicing. And he didn't want to like fast, I think because he's gonna lose his gains. Yeah, what's this? So we've created this kind of culture. It's very shallow. And let me tell you something, functionally, they don't take any bodybuilder. And I know this because I'm a martial artist. I've done boxing as well. No martial arts boxing. And I know when I tried to train in martial arts or boxing when I was nine kilos, or even 100 kilos. Yeah, I was finished a second I finished. Um, I have the skills, but I'm just finished. Yeah. So if you
can't last three minutes in a ring, two minutes in a ring, then you have issues you're not functioning fit in my view. Yeah, you cannot call yourself that was it for was it for if you have all these big muscles, and you and someone half your size, can humiliate you in an altercation, like I To be honest, those are those big guy that came into the gym. And they were doing like just normal rolling rounds, he was maybe about 110 kilos, easy. He was quite short, stocky. And then we had these guys that maybe like 75 kilos, 70 kilos. And they were just trained, like they knew what to do. They knew how to get people down, they know how to put people into chokes and level. And so he
went this big guy, when everyone was watching on the side of their eyes to see how this big guy is going to operate with the small guy. And it was smooth. I was moving him around doing basically everything. Scott was exhausted. No, he's doing. He just looked, it just looked wrong, to be honest with you, like, how big are you? And look how small he is, functionally, first of all, is fitter than you. Secondly, he is more healthy than you. And number three, all of your muscles could not deal with his techniques. Yeah, for sure. So no, it's important for us to be intelligent, and to connect things traditionally.
I'm not saying anything bad, and of course, but even these things are important. Because remember, we're supposed to be people of wisdom, and people have insight. And, you know, just growing muscles for the sake of a look, I think is extremely shallow. Yeah. So it will actually give you a disadvantage. Yeah, of course, for sure. So I think I see Joshua house operation, he's, he's operating a heavier weight, he has to lose weight. Yeah, of course, you know, work and everything. So I think it's important to be smart and be functional have functional type of fitness. So I would recommend things like sprints, or recommend like boxing training. Have you heard of Tabata training?
robots is very good. You should do it all the time. That's what got me really fit. Actually. Apparently, this is one of the most scientific ways of increasing your fitness like, rapidly. Yeah, so minutes is very good for things like if you're in a camp, if you have a camp of eight weeks training camp, high intensity training is very good. But for the long term, I wouldn't advise it I'll advise mixing up but about your training has to be done properly. So to better training for remember is 20 seconds on testing is off for four minutes, if four minutes 20
minutes or eight times whatever. Yeah, so those four minutes have to be the worst four minutes of your life is too hard. Now I'm talking about if you're walking after that you haven't done Tabata, you've just you've just done nothing that you have to let go like that is why hey, yeah, but it's an amazing experience. Yeah, like once I did a similar type of high intensity training workout in my living room. And I think everyone was upstairs and I needed some water but was so finished. I was saying well to know can hear me.
So I had to like almost cool with my head and shoulder like this on the floor.
Like this, because you have to maximize bro, you bow at something yet. You've excited me now yet? Why are we afraid of pain? Why are we afraid of pain? Am I offended? So it's not robust? It's not philosophical. It's not intellectual. It's not It's nothing. Look, obviously we don't we don't say that's what it is. Exactly. Yeah. And imagine your mother ran away from pain we won't be born. You were given birth through pain, pain is necessary for life. Even even Allah says in the Quran Surah Baqarah verse 214 you think you're going to paradise without being tested? Well you think test is going to be like you know here you know have some caviar and have a big house. No, it's going to be
through pain, internal pain, no external pain. I'm not saying you should like one pain all the time don't have manmade tests. But life is supposed to be painful to a degree. So there is almost like a seal philosophy behind that aspect of pain Don't run away from it all the time. Pain is sometimes necessary for your growth. And that is so important we live in such a personal Animas pigeon weasel
it's like it's like, come on, man. What happened? Like so Pinilla you know, fast food. How am I gonna like, you know, my my doors to these men.
You know what I mean?
There's there's issues here. We need to I'm not saying look, I'm not saying you have to adopt this kind of false sense of massive masochism. manliness. Yeah, we have our own
Understanding of that, and it also means being empathic and being emotional having emotional intelligence and crying. And it means from saying that
I'm trying to say there is a balance. Yeah. But what I'm trying to see is
that to say this because it creates happiness.
I give you them.
I try to tell you, I'm trying to show you that we need to have abundance, right?
You shouldn't be watching this.
We shouldn't. We shouldn't mix it the first bit.
So how do you get my point? Right?
We need to like, you know, be
Yeah, I get you
we accept challenges sometimes, you know, you know, accept the challenge is to willingly
accept the challenges. You know, try your best have axon be a person of excellence, you know, you know, I'll tell you a secret a secret would see me in here. And everybody else. Oh, yeah. So I basically had this competition in Portugal one time where, and I was going against this guy. And
it's a competition and I was grappling and I just fought he came over from Brazil, you know? Well, this guy. Yeah. And eight hour flight, whatever. And I thought, yeah, we're gonna finish him here. So I said,
before we started before, like he was pacing up and down, and I was just speaking, I had like, very limited anxiety. At that point, I was talking to people I was almost late because I was doing talking someone. Yeah.
They went on the mat. I saw him before and on the mats after Tim Look, man.
I wanted to say something to him. And I said, Look, man, everything's gonna be alright.
Everything's gonna be alright.
Anyways, and Roger Gracie was there as well, you know, Oh, wow. And he was in my corner. Now and there's like, I'm ready for this. Yeah. I started trying to cuz I'm usually the aggressor. I usually score to take down some, they're trying to take him down, blah, blah, blah.
I've got the video of this fighter in
double leg single African What's going on? This guy's got something. He's got something that people don't usually have. Okay. So it's like two, three minutes in. And I'm not managing to take this guy down. And he's defending it. And I hit Roger Gracie, because he can speak in Portuguese. And these guys that do those, though, from Brazil so that he knows what they're saying. He goes, this guy's a judo specialist in it. So don't try and take him down. And it's too late for you to tell me this. You have the GI?
sad because you don't know who you're gonna. Yeah, sure. Sure. So I was like, okay, so I kept trying to do like wrestling takedowns and stuff. And it was he kept defending with Judo and stuff. So he grabbed my collar and he choked me. Yeah, in seconds. And because this is a scoreboard our chalk Hmm. And I wasn't familiar with the defense of it in that angle.
I was like, sorry, I'm not used to this kind of thing here.
And I was hoping that he didn't watch obviously, he didn't because from Brazil, he was hoping that he didn't know he didn't know me from YouTube or anything like that, because I didn't want him to finish or anything like that.
And I grew up and I think you know,
it's very humbling experience. Yeah, of course. You know why it's that kind of thing. Like To be honest, I'd rather face that kind of a defeat, or someone like that this level. Yeah. It was very, very, very good. I prefer grappling because you don't have to strike in the face. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, no, no. I was about to mention that had a punching in the face is forbidden. Only obviously, there's some which shows really, you know, the summer folks will say some is violent. Yeah. You know,
even in sporting occasions, you know, I like to strike the face. In addition, I mean, it's touch sparring and stuff like that is different, and you're not trying to harm the person. Yeah. And this is like for us the hobbies model, which I love this model, like, you know, if you want to hear things like you know, just train at 70% especially with striking because you will find a heavyweight as well. Yeah, it's very Imagine if you went to the club and your guys that your training partners are going flat on you. In actual fact, a good trainer would not allow you to go full out in sparring. Yeah, exactly. That's the point. The good trainer says ego No, but some people do have
that mentality. Like if you go to certain boxing clubs and stuff, they'll go full out full out for every every like two times a week, they'll go full out flat flat flat. And if you're a heavyweight and stuff like that, and you and your The way I see it is if you're trying to learn if you're trying to learn like whatever it is you're trying to learn from university or something. And then you're someone's just smashed in your head all the time. Literally, that's gonna have a cognitive effect. It must have a cognitive effect on you. And this whole thing of CBT No, it was called CTE sorry, CTE and the brain damage that can come from especially as a heavyweight especially like when you see
this NFL players. I'm not sure if you've seen like what because the CTE can't be tracked unless the person's then
post more post mortems. And yeah, for sure. So they look at the brain structure and it's actually different. It's a different shape. So we should be clear just for people to infer the wrong things. What we're saying that we're not advocating in any shape or form.
Sports where you strike the face. Yeah, on a proportionate to the degree where you harm people. Yeah, exactly. soft touch sparring is fine. Exactly, exactly. So this is this whole thing about like, you know, if there's someone I have a real problem with, and we want to sort it out, like he knows an enemy of Islam or something like that, well, I'm gonna try it. You know, it's different like that. Now, these rules are out the window with respect. Like for me, for me personally, that's because I don't want people to think of something as a contradiction. Like if I see someone as an enemy of Islam, and there's a legal way of me exacting retribution. That's the legal legal, legal
way. Ethical, ethical. Yeah. So that's different to me doing it for popularity, or doing it for money or doing it for whatever. Yeah, for sure. You know, so anyway, got a bit passionate, but the point is, is good to stay fit. It's good to try and maximize the gifts that Allah has given you. And be smart when you're, you know, have it be strategic with your life. You're not gonna stay young forever. Eat well, because really, it's about 80% food. You know what I realized? 20% vegetarian for baiona I went really pumped based for about 15 months. How did that feel? feel really good. But how was your back now? Well, COVID did you lose all the weight? Because you almost Yeah, I went to about
7% body fat. Now what was your weight? My weight was I think 82 kilos, is it? Well, you know, I think about 99 also, you get about 234 stones, something like that. Some Yeah. Again, again, quite a bit, but, but a lot of it is not because of the food is because of the training. I say doing band training. Because before the training I was doing was you know, well you're doing more cardio before the COVID it was COVID cardio but it wasn't it was more high intensity training. Yeah, as of boxing circuits, but then the Why did I want you to get a little bit more muscle mass again? Because I think is important because I'm just saying those aesthetics No, no, no for me, because you know,
when you hit in the bag, you can know because when you're hitting the bag, for example, you can tell when I'm at 95 kilos and 81 kilos, there's such a big difference in your punch. So I want to get the right range of weight where I think I'm very comfortable where you know, you create the most impact and you have more power but you haven't lost your aerobic capacity as well and your vo two Max and your your your anaerobic capacity as well. So there is a balance and she's I think my right way I think is around when you say right way swing by your fight way or no right way as what I feel the fittest where I could be powerful and fast and aerobic and anaerobic. He'd be 89 kilos. 88 kilos.
Yeah, 282 is too low. I went too high up at one point. I was almost 120. So
coming down now is good. I think I've had you been doing some running lately. Yeah, I've been doing some running. So it's been horrible. Horrible, but it's good. But you know, we learn from the experience but you know one time I did a half marathon you know that like and would you call it? Yeah, I did half marathon time in Norway in Bergen.
How much did you a
general from UK away probably about 108 kilograms at that time. This was about to take you
was a very horrible time I can remember exactly but it was very horrible. Yeah, blisters at the end. So it was like on a physical level probably that was one of the worst things I've ever done in my life. Oh my god. Because my neck my my knees were well yeah, I've done a and moreover, you know, I didn't train for that properly. Like you know how people wouldn't have better friends. They trained like four or five times a week or something like go ride the train for maybe six months for me? I did I did I did once or twice a week. Oh my god around you know was that competition or charity? I just just I want to I want to challenge myself. Oh, well. Yeah, I just want to charge myself I did
that. And it was for me it was the worst thing they were gonna put me in the little tent with the thing because my knees and was smashed up. I saw some kids with bicycles and I was actually thinking because I had some Norwegian money in my pocket we could just give them the money getting the bicycle
It was too much money. I don't think I've got that build for marathon I was so surprised bro. If you stick out a program stick to a program and you have the right diet you can shape your whole body it's not good to be in line with a certain
aesthetic competitions you know this kind of running and stuff long distance running for people that are heavier. I don't believe in it like I only do once a week yeah, that's my vision I mean because my knees my knees you should do a nice long run on a Sunday it's like a recovery run Yeah, like family get your basic aerobic capacity five to six k more your basic Arabic was going but then your rest of the week should be based on like Sprint's or high intensity training but you can't do that too much either because it affects your your your nervous You know, I've got this string here. You told me to get this a long time ago now. Well not that thing. Not that one one. No You told me to
get like you got one as well. It's an Apple Watch. Yes be hungry and stuff. I like it because it gives me It gives me like visuals of making an advertisement say what it is. But yeah, it gives me like visuals of Okay, this is how much my heart is
operate in like, you know is I think it's good yeah anyways that's the fitness but the food is important raw food I really think people need to so what what can I do recommend that I've tried keto? Now I look, the easiest thing to do is have a diet that is consistent. Yeah, that's difficult with keto. Yeah, like
Bryson. So what you need to do is my view I think the best type of diet is a plant based diet. my newest meat though, isn't it? No Hadley have me bow to me we have meat once a month or once every two weeks.
If you have beans, and you talk about chicken and don't have refined or you talk about even chicken Yeah, don't have listeners who don't have refined foods don't have refined food. So no white rice, no white bread brown bread, rice whole wider. Why? Because it's been shown scientifically reviewed journals. Why has it shown that it's, it's better for you how in what sense because a high fiber diet is very good for you. You have more antioxidants in the Browns rather than the whites and so many other reasons. But the point is, you want to have a diet that's good for you. So for example, so you had a choice for breakfast to have
home oats with home opener, you have oats for breakfast, I used to have this this was my my kind of orange I used to have oats, wholemeal peanut butter, which means with the skin with no added sugar and no added oil
and some blueberries and bananas, hot water mix it up. That would be my breakfast. And so here you have ultra is very very good for you, especially for those who want to clean out your your arteries and stuff because if they're clogged up oats helps actually clean them up for you. You have your blueberries you have your bananas, you have your oxidant peanut butter, which is protein and fiber as well as high high fiber. And the oats is slow release carbohydrates are released throughout the whole day. So that's so that if you contrast that with for example, two fried eggs, and some toast with butter and jam, I've been trying to see my point. So you know, I know there's so many opinions
on this stuff but I think the best thing to do is this cut out old sugars from your diet meaning like refined sugars, refined sugars or refined you're not talking about you're not talking about natural sugars no in fruits if it's a high fiber foods, if it's a high fiber fruit you could do with that type of sugar. But if you have too much fruit still not good for you if because of the sugar level. Yeah, but if it's a high fiber fruit, no problem. I'm talking about putting sugar in your tea in your coffee, having sweets and cakes. And you know syrups Okay, for those things. Take no take them out. Yeah, there's no correlation between sugar, but they will because there's only a few
changes, maybe for changes, no sugar whatsoever. The next change is, so you're never gonna have cake again in your life. You can. So you
know what, you gotta have a cheat meal. Okay, cheating is different. That's another discussion. So the motivational strategies to keeping the date is a different issue. But as a general principle, sugar, no sugar whatsoever correlated to cancer, so many different things. Yeah. The other thing is no refined foods. So you have a choice. Even white rice, no brown rice, white bread, no brown bread. Okay. white pasta, no homemade pasta. What's your view on gluten?
I don't think is a problem. If you have a good plant based diet. Doesn't that cause bloated? Can I feel like it? No, I I think it's because of other aspects, your biome and there's so many different studies on this issue. But I don't claim to be a kind of scientist you know, I read one major book on this, which is it was called how not to die is really good by Dr. Greger is very good book. Yeah. And he's got another book called how not to diet, which is very interesting, but huge, huge. For it's not an easy read. So you have to listen to it, I think. Anyway, the point is, when you look at the peer reviewed research, double blind studies, placebo controlled when you don't have any,
they're not endorsed by food companies, Whole Foods. So have Whole Foods, so no sugars, and no refined foods have Whole Foods. No fruit juices have the fruit itself with the fiber? Yeah, very important. Yeah.
And with regards to carbohydrates, maybe don't have carbohydrates after six o'clock. I tried that, you know, now, if you do those four things, the simple changes.
Oh, one more. Sorry, cut out all the oils. So you're mentioning meats here. So moving on. Okay, maybe cut out all those but if you do that, if you do that having me
won't be a huge problem. If you want to lose weight be more healthier doing these five things will be fantastic.
To have an even better diet, I would say just cut down the meat intake. we'd eat way too much meat. It's all white meat. If you watch it when I'm talking about all types of meat fish, watch the chicken was in me. I think there's too many things. I think beef is worse. Yeah. I think some of them are that one of the schools of thought said you know, try not to eat creates aggression. Yeah. Yeah, I think is the Maliki's. I'm not sure if you go check it out. So the point is, I love dogs. No, they
Eat dogs oh
so the issue here is that you know caught the meat if you have meat like once every two weeks have no oils have Whole Foods make sure it's not sort of have knowed how juices have the fruit? Have
no sugar if you add all those things together I'm telling you it's gonna change what about you okay so and make sure you have lots of fruits and veggies it has to be primarily a plant based diet so you have beans and chickpeas and fruits with the skin if preferably you know have fibrous type of diet instead of like maybe a potato have a sweet potato with the skin on it, you know that kind of stuff so i would i would advocate that type of diet I'm not saying meat is haram Of course not. But I'm saying cut off cut down on the meat maybe once every two weeks every month. Fish is good anything with fish today because you have to is very good for you is because the high metal content
because of the poisoning in the fish farms and then the sea. So you have a lot of heavy metals in the fish. So rock'n'roll.
So what happened to me was, I had tuna everyday once and I became sick. I was in I was bedridden. I think I had a mild form of metal heavy, heavy metal poisoning. Yeah. So you'd be very careful with a fish diet. Maybe I think they say fish three times a week. But it has heavy metals. So okay, down to maybe twice a week or once a week. I don't know. But you know, consult a dietician, diet trician and a doctor anyway, the point is, is actually 80% food 20% of doctors should spend more time consuming us. Like, for the last X amount of years, I haven't gone to the surgery to give me some prescription. No, but the problem is with a lot of Tell me about how to a lot of the because I have
friends who are doctors, they don't really study diet that much. Yeah, they don't. They don't know. I'm sure they should know about the basic composition? No, of course they do. But to this level, I'll give an example. Two of the diseases like type two diabetes and heart disease are reversible diseases, bro.
They're created by food if you could reverse type two diabetes and heart disease, just by changing your diet. It's a ketogenic diet is good for diabetes now,
I would say a plant based diet has been proven to solve the issue of type two diabetes and heart disease to number one killers, bro. You know, especially amongst Muslim community are smoking is haram. We're not we're not denying that. You know, it's really bad for you. But what is the number one killer? Well, it's actually a bad diet, I think statistically, yeah, yeah. Heart disease and type two diabetes is no more I think the the to the the top two, are they in the top five for the cancer. And that's what we need to speak more about, you know, our diets and when you started the diet of the process on them, you see, it was plant based. It wasn't that refined. Yes, there was me,
but it wasn't that regular. So he just ate what was around him. One would argue that all Saudis would argue that absolutely. But we should follow the Quranic ethic, which is halal and wholesome. So research what is wholesome. And when you research what is wholesome, you understand it's a plant based diet, no refined foods, Whole Foods, not much sugars cut down on the meat, very basic stuff. And that's why diet is more important than exercise. This is 80% diet 20% exercise from that. What about exercise? What's your what's your what would you recommend for someone once again to exercise now, especially the lockdown, what would you recommend for them? Well, first they need to consult
doctors see if the fit enough to what type of exercise they can do. So that should be a very important disclaimer, consult a physician there are really even get these online questionnaires about your state of health and whether or not you can engage in certain forms of exercise. So I suggest you go to someone qualified to do that. But notwithstanding that, you know, basic things like you know, band training, some muscular training, which is very good, you need to have some, you know, muscular endurance running high intensity training, it all depends what your goal is, because it has to be goal oriented, because you won't be motivated. So, if your goal is, for example, to
lose weight to be healthier, and from an Islamic scripture perspective, I would say lose weight to be healthier. In order to worship Allah, right, you could wake up a budget much easier. You could wake up at 100 you could maybe fast for you know longer hours, whatever the case may be one of the things you could do, you could be more efficient in your day, you're less lazy, you know, if you're heavier, and you eat too much food, and I've had this happen to me, bro, like, relatively recently, I'm like, Oh my god, I'm lethargic and you don't want to do much. So, you know, have the right intention have the right goal. You know, from a Muslim father point of view. You know, children
don't really listen. They do but they don't listen the listen with their eyes. So you need to that your children need to catch you in the act of excellence.
When they see you every time they see me
is they need to catch you in the act of excellence. They need to catch you they need to see is by enrolling your children your behavior. Yes, you need to teach them good values and ethics but they see in you on a cross
Unfortunately, they need to see in you so you know when they see you training in the garage you're, you know, you're dedicated you do with Exxon you're, you're you're you're trying your best when they see you interacting with family members that you're patient and compassion and Pathak seeing that is great lessons than just talking about it right. So when it comes to fitness as a Muslim Father, you know, when I saw that, you know, this way it means to try and be strong and trying to be fair, that's how you train with a sense of excellence and, and passion and and pushing yourself as much as possible in these small obstacles of pain are not real obstacles and trying you know that stuff is
really inspirational, right? It should be maybe you start doing motivational talking.
Maybe your training session? Yeah, we should maybe video that. I think we spend a lot of time on health and fitness. That's good. And I feel like there's something that we're missing in that we don't have. I mean, how many times do we hear people talk about that, and the Muslim? So let's talk about this, maybe Sapiens. So now that we've spoken about that, I wanted to ask you about the new organization, obviously, you're gonna be CEO of Sapiens.
What do you envisage? What is Sapiens? What we're doing here with Sapiens? And what do you envisage for the future in terms of Sapiens?
In terms of a lot of stuff as in the about section about our section? Yeah, I mean, just first, as a point of clarity,
I don't even think I have a title yet. But I'm there to help set up the organization. So that you're familiar.
So you know, and we're all part of the leadership team, yourself and others, we do sre, and we're going to try and move this organization forward. I was the first time I heard this now.
You know, I think what's Sapiens Institute, obviously the word Sapiens means insight, deep knowledge, profound knowledge, wisdom, and it was inspired by sort of yourself, where it says, that I call to Allah with basilar with insight. And Sapiens is actually a really good word to use because it has a range of those meanings, profound knowledge, wisdom, insight. And so it was inspired by the Quran and also the motivation behind this is when Allah says, quote, to Allah with, you know, code to the way of Allah with wisdom and good preaching and argue with them or discuss with them in ways that are better. Also, Allah says that and argue with it, be he which means the Quran, argue with
the analyst says, This is the greatest struggle, Jihad and kaviraj. This is the greatest struggle. So one of the famous scholars of Islam had been pagan, the 14th century theologian, he basically said that this is one of the greatest struggles you could do. That is essentially the intellectual struggle. Yeah, well,
he hadn't. He hadn't noticed there's another Hadith, which is fight the mushriks BLC. Fight the polytheist bewelcome on fujichrome. What else unity cool. So with your wealth, with yourself, and with obviously, disclaimers, not all the martial arts and all that, but with your tongues. Yes. How can you How can you fight against someone with your tongues
unless you go to?
So we need to get into our text was the Hadees sits within the kind of ethical legal framework? Of course, of course, limited permitted, in terms of, you know, legalities, legality and just war? Yes, yes. Everyone knows our stances on Yeah, of course. But you don't want
to know what we're talking about here is that the enemies of Islam that attack Islam, its people and
the Shire, or the symbols of Islam? Yes, need to be targeted in a very similar way. Where there is
an intellectual? Absolutely. So the point, the emphasis here that we're talking about is the kind of the intellectual struggle is very important. So that's the kind of kind of motivation and also the motivation is both the history of ideas. Now, if you study ideas, like democracy, communism, liberalism, atheism, social Darwinism, Darwinism itself, though, these things started with an idea in someone's mind, and then they wanted to defend and share the idea. And then it was promulgated by others and influential, and maybe even the state adopted it, right. And it was pushed towards the masses, right? So don't underestimate the power of a single idea. And it's very important that in
the war of ideas, right, we live in, you know, a time where people have different ideological perspectives and we have different
ways of seeing the world. The the Islamic perspective needs to be defended and shed, obviously with wisdom, with with reason and what's wrong with compassion.
And because we live in
A time, we need to basically have an entity that is pushing the Islamic narrative and defending it and sharing it.
But many Institute's do that. So we didn't want to reinvent the wheel. For example, I had a meeting, or I had a discussion with the research director of a particular Institute. And I said, Look, you're doing this great work as well. But we want we want to focus on actually creating the future intellectual activists and the future academic activists in order to do this good work. He said, Go and do it, because we're not focusing on this. So you know, we didn't want to create this institute for the sake of it, we want to, yes, promote and share Islam write books or answer questions have debates and discussions, and we are on the kind of intellectual front line, but at the same time, we
want to develop others. And that's why we launched with over 35 free webinars if people go to Sapiens institute.org, forward slash webinar, because the link will be in the description, free in depth webinars to empower and educate you to shine and defend Islam intellectually and academically. For example, you already did a webinar on Trinity I've done one on self evident truth supported one on the philosophy of science. Dr. Amanda teef, is continuing his series on on being human how Islam, addresses othering, dehumanization, empathy. So we have all of these amazing things coming up. So we want to train and develop empower people will have far more things to to show you in the future
about, you know, you know, training in how to deal with atheism in an in depth way, the philosophy of science, theology, Christology, all of these things will have bespoke courses in depth, online and offline. So we're here to empower you. But at the same time, we are not just going to teach you or educate and inspire you. But we are going to also be the people doing the work on the intellectual front line, writing the papers, doing the debates, the discussions, the podcasts, this, that and the other. So and I think we we have a unique space is filling the kind of gap from my point of view, because there are many instances of do the kind of academic work and intellectual
stuff, which in that content we're going to use as well. We have good relationships with so many people in this field, we're going to use that work if needed, we're not going to reinvent the wheel. And I think that's a key point. Of course, we've actually hamdulillah we're not like convincing you this kind of promulgation of Islam dour and stuff like that. We've humbler for the most part. Got a good relationship with a lot of people. Yes, absolutely. And even people that we may disagree with, but we have a really positive relationship, and we could learn from each other. So that's, that's what we're going to be doing in Sharla. And I think I was very excited. So people go on the website.
We already have articles on there. We've got your book that's free, a lot a lot off now free of charge. And we've got people like Dr. Hoffman Latif,
postdoctoral, studying dehumanization, his book on being human is available to download for free, your book is available download for free. My book, the divine Ratatouille, newly revised edition, Sapiens edition version online is going to be available the next couple of days, download for free. So the good thing about this is as well being checked by academics downloading Muslim, yeah, a lot of the works, but we are going to start developing a period process in the future as well. It's not 100% developed yet, but we're getting there. Yeah. So and people need to understand as well, because in my era, there was a strategic retreat. There was a tweak, missionary stuff, so they're gonna
focus more on the ministry stuff, no advanced stuff level one dour and focusing on the developing world. Yeah. So they said, this is a great opportunity for all of that advanced stuff to go to Sapiens Institute makes sense, because a lot of people when they put their money into it, they know that they're putting their money. Exactly in jungle on the ground work in the developing world. That's what they're putting their money into. Whereas with sapiens, they're putting their money into the intellectual stuff. Absolutely. So it makes it clear for the person who's Yeah, of course,
it's up to him green mela, bless him. You know, he's visionary in that way. sockets are thought his visionary that way, and they did an amazing strategic tweak. And I agree with it.
When I think about Now we could, yeah, we could adopt all of that works. All the advanced atheists in the world, developing an AI era and all of that stuff. We could bring it to sapience, develop it further, make it better, and just continue the great work. But I think it's important for us to just re emphasize the point that
good leadership is creating new leaders. Because I believe this is like the methodology of the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, his vision was so big that his vision outlived him.
Right Muslim, Ahmed Hadeeth, his son would enter every home, his vision outlived him, right? But his vision will manifest itself because he did the necessary groundwork sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, he, who were his leaders, the Sahaba and the Sahaba. Create whom Tabby and the Tabby and create Who? Exactly you see my point. So we have to have the same mindset. Yes, it's good to be your own person. You have a YouTube channel and you do your stuff. But if you are on another level of sincerity, I believe everyone's essential, but if you're in another level sincerity, now is the time to start to think you know
work in a group, I used to work in a group and a to develop other people as well. Yeah. And I realized that by working in a group, when when you're working with people or information sharing, the
first of all, the law of comparative advantage, like, just the effectiveness of everything is more smooth running. I can't know everything, there's going to be certain things I can research or have researched, there's going to be more than person x, where person X has researched something that's going to be way more than me. And if we both did the same research, then it would be an ineffective use of resources. Yeah. And even even, like, even sometimes the basic support, bro, yeah, you know, you're very busy. Sometimes you need someone to help you with something like, Oh, I need the slides done. Or I need this up. You can't do everything yourself. And a team does that. And when the team
is close, and you have that brotherhood, like brothers is open as well. Absolutely. Absolutely. It was not here in the room.
He's very sincere, he's and he's going to be editing the videos as well, he does that. So that's why Allah subhanaw taala. That's my point. But we need to he does well, for me, of course, we need to be inspired by that. And continue that ethic within Sapiens and other institutions and the way we work together in the dour, and that's where you need to work together, you can't do all alone. But I think for me, you need to create the future subordinates of the world, the future of the world, the future,
whoever, right in order to have that impact. So that's what Sapiens is about. So inshallah you're going to see a lot of work coming out. inshallah, there'll be debates in the future, there'll be more papers and books, there'll be more courses, you could even go to the About Us and this and what our services are, you could request for some of our work, you could fill in the volunteers form, get involved, support our work, and please go to see our mentoring program as well. We're going to have mentoring soon with this game, the T's and C's legal champion last to get like, we're gonna have 18 year olds, 18 year olds, and we're gonna have private mentoring and facilitation, because people are
great. Like, we need to make sure that, you know, I would have loved to have someone 10 years 20 years, like dumb things I haven't done at that time. Absolutely. And just giving them the tricks of the trade. Yeah, they can do like if someone spoke to me, like 18 years ago, when I just became Muslim, and said, you know, what, these are the things that you're going to face or this what you need to do now.
You know, it would have been, you know, some of us had to learn things the hard way, bro. And that's the beauty of Islam is that when you're trying to empower the future generation of the future leaders is that you're telling them you don't have to reinvent the wheel, you don't have to learn it the hard way. You don't have to, you know, make the same mistakes I made you could you could anchor off my own experiences and the kind of mistakes that I've made in order for you to take it to the next level. And that's what Sapiens is about, sort of create these new future intellectual and academic activists in order for them to share and defend Islam compassionately and intelligently. So
yeah, it's exciting times. I'm really excited, excited. So lots of things are going to be coming up very soon. But for now, we have all the website we have over 35 free webinars, if you go to Sapiens Institute org, s AP, ie n c institute.org. You can see everything there for yourself. If you want to go specifically to the webinars just to forward slash webinars, register for your free webinars free of charge, the in depth as well and some very good feedback from the webinars. And what's very interesting is that well, it's been two weeks, hardly any marketing, and we've had around 15,000 registrations. Yeah, so hamdulillah the need is understood Bismillah And on that note, does that
locker room for cola bless you both very much unity and this is the 10th podcast of the MH podcast. Otherwise, the podcast was there.
The seventh episode of the M h podcast with Hamza sources make sure that inshallah you visit the links on the description box below. To check out the webinars, check out the free books, everything is free, in sha Allah, and until next time, Salaam Alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh