Why History Matters Podcast with @Islam4Europeans

Ismail Kamdar


Channel: Ismail Kamdar

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All right.

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On the button

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as salam Wa alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh who, sorry for the technical difficulties, but I'm very pleased to have again on it's not for Europeans as a second time being here, she gets smile Kamdar How are you doing in South Africa, she gets under the law. While I'm happy to be here. And I'm glad things are good. Somebody is starting the site. So our weather is getting a bit more warmer.

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And winter starting on our side, so I think it's about like seven degrees here. And soon, it'll be zero and minus five and minus 10. So we include that. I'm lucky where I live that we don't get real winter. Like, our summer is hot in our winter is warm to slightly cold.

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I assume all the like sporting events occur in the winter because of that, or

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we have sporting events throughout the year. Oh, cool. Very nice.

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So yeah, thank you for so much for coming on as she gets Mal. So for those who don't know, she can smile works for Yaqeen Institute. He has several Islamic self help courses. But what we're going to talk about today is his wonderful history of Islam online course, which I bought a couple of months ago, and it's absolutely fantastic. It's very user friendly.

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He has a series of lectures on the whole course of Islamic history over the last 1400 years, covering everything from the life of the prophet peace be upon him to the Ottoman Empire to contemporary times. So I just wanted to to ask you shake his smile. What?

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What, how did you want to make this course different from like, I just want to average every day, Islamic course on Islamic history for you know, like, I guess new young audiences? Like what what was your main intention of like, you know, giving this, you know, like these series of lectures to the youth?

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Yeah, okay. Hamdulillah. So, this actually was an extension of something I've been doing for a long time, right.

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Back in the my 20s, I used to teach Islamic history at IO u at the International University. And my students enjoyed my way of teaching Islamic history. And there was no resource I found online for the average person where they could just get the entire history in a very accessible manner, you know, in one in one package. And one of the things that happened for me was my kids were studying Islamic history at school, and it was extremely boring. Like, they we had to memorize these dates and memorize these names. And, you know, they were doing to an online school, but I wasn't happy with it. And the more I'm speaking to young people, I found that this was common throughout the

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world that people assume that Islamic history is boring. But it's not history. That's boring. It's the teacher. That's what are the methodology of teaching. And people like my way of teaching history. So what happened was during the pandemic, locked in the house all day, would have a lot of spare time. So I decided to just sit down and record a course, right? Every Saturday, for 10 months, I sat and I recorded videos, covering the entire history of Islam. But the idea was to make it presentable to make it understandable, to be straightforward to be clear about both the highs and lows, and to extract lessons for people. I wanted to be one course where you can find everything

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from the time of Rasulullah, sallAllahu, songwriter for today.

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And honestly, I didn't expect the course to do well, to be honest with you, when I hit the publish button. My expectation was 20 to 30 students, right. hamdulillah at this point in time, we have 1400 students on

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the panel. Ah, that's great. Put definitely a post the link, you gave it to me so our viewers can actually buy the course as well.

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So, yeah, I think one of the other great things about the discourses that it gives an honest assessment of the history of the Muslim world for the last 1400 years.

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You know, of course, we had the time of the Prophet peace be upon him and the first three generations of

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Muslims. You know, we're the, I guess, the pinnacle of belief, but I guess, you know, like, for you know, that anytime after that you're gonna run into some controversial times. And needless to say, the the kind of this narrative that like, you know, all Muslims were perfect, you know, throughout 1400 years, is really not true. And, you know, at times it can really shake someone's face when when they hurt when they hear about, you know, the actual reality of Muslim history.

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So, like, you know, like,

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you really had to strike a balance. So you, you created this course because on the one hand, you don't want to, you know, you know, give this unbelievably rosy image of the history of the Muslim world 14 years. But on the other hand, if you're too harsh, you know, like, you're gonna you might have gotten to the other extreme where Orientalist and anti Islam

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speakers, you know, use the same kind of talking points. So, how did you how did you strike that balance?

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Okay, so, um, they that I base this course on a few fundamental principles, right? The first principle is that our history is human. Right? And we have to accept the humanity of everyone is only the prophets who were protected from sin. Right? So we have to accept that these are human beings, even the first generation, they had their struggles, they had the slip ups, they had the errors, right? In personal life, not saying in terms of the understanding of Islam, but in their personal life, you know, maybe I wouldn't have a father use some racial racial slur against the law and also something to correct him right. Or when kabhi Malik radula, did not go to the book and know

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Allah to reveal the verses forgiving him, right. So that means they are human elements, even with the first generation. And the further away we get from the first generation, the more we're going to see the human side of history. So I made it very clear from the beginning that our history is a human history, as a human history is going to be full of flaws, there's going to be UPS is going to be downs, there are people who at times, will pass the test of life, and at times, they may slip up. It's very complex, one individual will be a hero of Islam for one perspective, and somebody we don't want to associate with from another perspective, because human life is complex, and no human beings

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aren't ODR in that sense, right? So what I wanted to do also was to separate Islam, from history. So I use the terminology that my history teacher did. So what my Islamic history teach at university taught us is his very first lesson, and I made this my first lesson as well. He said, we have to separate between Islamic history and Muslim history. He said Islamic history is what we learned Islam from the lives of the prophets. This is Islamic history. You learn Islam from the story of use of it Salaam and Isa Ali Salam, Muhammad sallahu wa salam, you learn Islam from the biographies. But when you study, Salam on the magnificent when you study salah, who they up when you study, Omar,

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Abdul Aziz, or anyone else, right, this is now Muslim history. You can learn Islam from them when they were right. And then you can also say, Okay, this is a mistake they made this is, this is a slip up that they made. This is something with a personal judgment. So there was something they said for that time, that doesn't apply to us. One of the mistakes we make is we look at history, as if the whole of history is a source for Islamic knowledge. Right? So for example, you'll find some people will say, let's look at the example of the the liberals, right, some of the Liberals will say, Oh, but you know, in the Ottoman Empire, they were gays. So that means gays are finding Islam.

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That's not how it works. Something existing in the Empire does not mean Islam approves of it. Right? Yeah. The Ottoman Empire as well. Yeah, like, I can make some use of it. Right, like anti Islam, people will get you not even anti Islam, people, I guess, people, some people who are even pro Islam on the far right, you know, we'll look at, you know, really misogynistic things that some Muslims didn't say, Oh, this is based, like, you know, we should be like this, because, you know, like, the Muslims were like, This is how we're going to be successful.

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You know, so you're absolutely right, the smile. I mean,

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you know, there's a lot of things that the Muslims did throughout history, you know, both good and bad. And another, you know, layer to this is that the world back then is totally different from the way the world is today. So main principle, I don't think the introduction that we are living in a unique point in human history, right? This is the point a lot of people fail to realize. We think that the way the world is today is normal. I think the way the world is today is a bubble. Right? It's like, it's like a like, if the people had to study the whole history of the world, this will be the unique point and everything else will be normal. Right? So things that were normal throughout

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human history seems strange to us. Now at 12 You're getting married, a 13 year old leading an army

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you know, a 14 year old would sleeps right? But these things seems strange to us, but if you look at any other point in history, besides this point, there will be normal parts of life. And because we are now projecting 21st century culture and norms, want to history, everything before seems wrong, everything before seems barbaric, but we have to take a step back and realize Hold on, different time, different place, different

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and norms, we cannot expect that the world at that time to be a basis to be similar to how it is today because this is the strange point in history, not everything else.

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Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And,

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you know, I'm going to

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add another point to that. And that is that,

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you know, when it comes to the Ottoman Empire, and I know that a lot of Muslims get excited, you know, you know, and then when we talk about the Ottoman Empire,

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you know, that that's, you know, a lot of people have this kind of wave of Neo automatism, where they want to kind of bring that back. But at the same time, you know, for us, converts of European descent, you know, the differences about what people think about the Ottoman Empire couldn't be more stark, you have many Muslims who think, you know, it was the most wonderful time ever, and like it was, you know, like a perfect Islamic empire. And, you know, it's going to, you know, revitalize the Muslim world. And then you have the Europeans on the other end, who just had the absolute worst impression of the Ottoman Empire, when you say, the Ottoman Empire to them, you know, they think,

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you know,

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you know, like, Barbary pirates, you know, going on to the shores of France and, you know, bagging a bunch of white female slaves and bring them back to for sale. Even, you know, some, there are some, you know, I guess you call them, like African American Orientalist among non Muslims who say that, you know, we shouldn't be converting to Islam, because, you know, look how they treated African slaves. They'll say, you know, it was at the same level, or even worse than that, I'm just quoting what they're saying, I'm not agreeing with it. But you know, like, the contrast couldn't be more stark. So how, what's the balanced approach, you know, when we take when we take a look at the the

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Ottoman Empire, today's smile. So, with the Ottoman Empire, we have to understand the unique place it played in history, right?

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The earlier empires, the Abbasids, that may exhibit Arabs, and they were primarily in the Arab. That's right. That's where the base of operation was. The Ottomans were literally the border of European nation, like they literally were the dividing mark between Europe and Asia. And they were amalgamation of all cultures. And they, for example, defeated the final Byzantium Empire. They destroyed the Byzantine Empire. They push back the Crusaders, they conquered the Balkans, they conquered Greece, they conquered a lot of very European lands, right. So you have to understand that when we look at the Ottoman Empire, we look at it from this position of glory. These are Muslims,

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who ruled the mighty empire. But now if you're coming from a European country, you look at these as outside forces who invaded our lands in the past. And you have to understand both perspectives

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as a Muslim, even as a Muslim Quan, but one has to understand that in Islam, we don't really have a problem with the idea of conquest. It is a difficult point in history for people to digest that. This is just the way the world was for the bulk of history. They were no skateboarders. If you were in conquering you are being conquered. That's how the world was. Like, if you look at the starting of the Ottoman Empire, they were nomads, right, they were traveling and moving from place to place, they were forced into forming a city and forming walls and forming a boundary. Otherwise, they had been devoured by either the Mongols or the crusades, and they start pushing back, pushing back and

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taking over one wall, and they go into this empire. So again, history is complex, and each country is going to have a different historical connection to the Ottoman Empire, the way someone from Greece views the Ottomans will be very different from how someone in Istanbul views the Ottomans, because the history of the empire in that land is very different. And also the way it's been propagated in the school system. Like, I know the Greek school system has a lot of propaganda against the Ottoman Empire. Right? Some of it is true, some of it is completely false. Right? But if you growing up in that school, and that's what you've been taught, then naturally, you're going to

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be averse to this history. And another reason right, why Europe views the Ottoman Empire as as,

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as something bad news, you have to remember World War One, right World War One was the changing point of human history. And World War One had two sides. Europe was on one side, the Ottoman Empire was on the other side, and had the other side one, that history of the past 100 years would have been completely different. The only reason we don't have an Ottoman Empire today is because they lost World War One. Right? And the Europeans know, they know very well. History would have been very different and they never forgot that this these were the enemies in World War One, right? These are the people who they fought and or people that actually the grandfathers I mean, it's not that long

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ago. They own grandfathers for the Ottoman Empire. In my case, my own ground. No my own forefathers fought on the side. So two very different histories that people

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haven't forgotten yet. So you can understand why did retention and why people from one side of the world would view differently therefore people on the other side of the world for us, it's our last glorious empire. So we must that time will be some very powerful

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and for people on the other side, it's, it's a enemy of the past and they don't want to see resurfacing.

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Yeah, yeah, that makes it very complicated. You know, like, one way I look at it is that, you know, one could argue that at every single point in history, you know, like, peoples of the world, at one point were completely against Islam until you know, their descendants converted, and then you know, they were part of the part of the part of the part of the Muslim ummah. So, when you look at the anywhere from the Quraysh, to the Persians, even the Afghans, you always had people who are against Islam and people who are for Islam. So, you know, non Muslims, you know, European should be no different. You would think that like, you know, you would have this natural progression where people

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just convert to Islam, you know, out of sincere faith.

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And you know, that that's no different from any other any other point in history up until today. I mean, even in the Muslim world, you have people who are you know, you know, maybe Muslim on paper but you know, but the support like oppressive governments that you know, oppress the Muslims themselves so it's really you know, I that's kind of my take on it that this is that Islam has always been you know, this this a way of life and and a dean where you're always gonna have people who are against it, no matter what society you belong to.

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It's not like it's not to say that it's just one civilization against another is too simplistic, I think but that's you know, when it comes to like this kind of like discourse you know, that we see in the in the media today it's, it's, it's sadly kind of like an us versus them thing. I'm going to talk about something a little different. So I read the top I'm gonna know if you've read Thomas Walker Arnold.

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The spread of Islam in the world. Have you read that book recently? or No, I haven't read. Yeah, it's pretty interesting book. He details he actually studied in Allah Darla, he lived in India during the Raj. But he, you know, worked for Muslims. He was around most there's a lot. I want to call him an Orientalist. Just because, you know, he was so immersed in the in the Muslim world. There's, we don't know if he actually converted to Islam at the end or not. But he wrote this book in the late 1800s, detailing how Islam spread at like the local levels, like this wasn't he wasn't talking about, you know, rulers and stuff. He just talked about how people converted to Islam, and

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most of it was done by missionary work. And it's really fascinating, because, you know, when you look at different Muslim populations in Europe,

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there was no distinction between the Christians and the Muslims in terms of the terms of the culture, for example, in Crete, Crete, the Greek island used to be half Muslim and half Christian, but you could not tell the difference.

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Culture wise between cretin, Muslims and cretin, Christians, they wear the same clothes, they ate the same food, they all spoke Greek. And this is an island that's only a couple 100 miles away from the Ottoman Empire. In fact, when the Ottoman Pashas went to Europe, I went to Crete, they had to translate any any type of communications from Turkish into Greek because everyone still spoke Greek there. So back then, you know, it was all about, you know, Christians, Christians and Muslims at each other's throats, basically. But when you look at Muslim populations in Europe,

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you know, they were still for the most part,

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ethnically ethnic Europeans, like even an Andalus, the vast majority of Muslims in Andalus, not Arabs, but actually native Spaniards and Portuguese, who had converted them their descendants I converted to Islam. So I think, you know, nowadays, you know, the, the, you know, the, I guess the rhetoric against Islam is not so much against the religion, per se, although there's an element among the right, that's against specifically Islam. I think part of it is, you know, people feel that they're that Islam with Islam, they're losing their culture. So how do we kind of get this idea across but in a historically accurate way, his smile, like if you, what do you what do you think

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about, you know, kind of looking at, not like the rulers and everything, and he because it was lots of covering dress, the slump course, like, just the day to day lives of people living in those parts of the parts of the Muslim world, like,

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you know, what's your take on that?

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So, when you studying history, you will find that most of the books focus only on political history, right. So just the empires, where you're going to find details on the day to day life is more in the diaries and

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three of them, I read the heavy chances

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into English and most famous even Buddha, right? But there's two others that are not as popular but probably even more detailed about the day to day life of people would be think is even Jumeirah of Spain. And the Lucia like he lived in Spain around the time the Empire was crumbling, right, and only actually be aware of the Ottoman Empire. So these were three travelers who basically spent their lives traveling and they had a diary where they know they

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detailed the journey. So like, for example, all their job is traveled. I don't know if you've heard of it already. But what's fascinating about it is that he,

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he would detail for every town that he visited the culture, the strange culture, the practices that was unique to that town. Some of the sins, they will probably the town, and the town spoke a different language for him, he would actually write in his journal, what are the swearing words of that type, so if somebody swears, he knows, that he's swearing, and so you get to see the different cultures of every Muslim town and village from from leading reading his journal, and you get to see how human it was that

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didn't know people living a normal life, every culture was unique. And this is one of the beautiful things about Islam is that

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not only do different countries have different cultures, but you can really have different neighborhoods with different cultures. And it's all fine, as long as he falls within the broad umbrella of what is halal.

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We see this, especially with even battuta. When he travels to India, when he travels to North Africa, he gives a very detailed account of how the day to day lives of people were and how different it was from where he lived. But he does this with China as well, like he travels China, which was not going to solve that. And he meets a few Muslims that were living there. And he explains what life was like for them at that time. So this is where you're going to find these kinds of details in studying these kinds of journals. And

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these kinds of books that don't focus on political history. Now, obviously, if you're buying a book called history of Islam, or Islamic history or history of the Muslim world, it's all going to be politics, right? It's going to be wars and empires and things like that. You want to look for something different than other books, which my personal favorite book about

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the lives of Muslims. The Empire is a book called civilization of faith by Dr. Mustafa Seba. And if you've read that book, I've heard of it. It's a beautiful thing. We got to read it what what that book does is it It details, some of the

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culture, the infrastructure and the accomplishments of, of the Muslim world, but what was it like to live in? What he describes the libraries, the schools, the universities, the hospitals, the animals, shelters, he describes like these aspects of life stuff empire, in a lot of details, a lot of evidence. It is honestly one of the most beautiful books I've ever read. I read it like three times already, because I loved it so much. It's it's just a very different perspective, from what we are accustomed to, that we just used to learning about wars and battles, but to learn about how the libraries were what the Awqaf system was, like, what the orphanages were like, the fact that they

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had, they had

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animal shelters for old horses, you know, with the horses too old to use, they had like a place where you can retire, right? They had homes for for street cats. So cats never live out in the streets, they had a place where they could stay run by walk off. So you know, these aspects of the day to day life, we just don't know about it, but it's there. It's available in the books, it's just you have to find the right books to find it. And when you do you learn a lot about how beautiful and diverse the Muslim cultures were. And what life was actually like on a day to day basis. Sometimes remember to to book is that available in English? Yeah, yeah, that was one of the first books to be

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translated to English it's, oh, it's definitely available. Yeah, yeah. What's the name of it again? It's called the travels of Ibn Battuta. Travels. Twitter. Okay, I'll definitely look it up. Yeah, oh, books I mentioned had been translated to English right? The travels of Ibn Battuta travels of Ibn Jubail, the travel the old gacha Levy, and civilization of it, all of them have the chancellor.

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Okay, let's talk about something let's get a little bit more controversial. Hello. When we talk about it's pretty controversial to begin with, but I'm interested to hear about

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you know, when I didn't know a lot about the Sunni Shia split when I first converted to Islam, and you know, someone had to really explain it to me, but, you know, when when we first had the, you know, the tragic death of a Hussein at Karbala, you know, that, you know, like, you know, it was really, when you want to actually, you know, like heard about this or actually listen to it from now psychologies lecture, and at the time the split was merely political.

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I'm just wondering about, you know, why the theology changed sometime after that, like, you know, like, I know, it's a very broad and controversial question at the same time, but you know, as, as you know, people have ALLAH SubhanA wa Jabbar what's like the proper position that

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to take on that, like I know, you know, for us, we still think that the Karbala was a tragic incident, but it was, I guess, what I gained what I gleaned from shaky officers lecture was that like, you know, like, it's it was more, you know, like, people had their own perspectives on what to do in certain times. And back then, a lot of you know, even the, the taboo, you know, the tablets have been made decisions where, you know, you thought, oh, maybe that's not the best idea. But they did it anyway. So what's your take on that as well? I know, it's a broad and controversial question. But what's your take? Yeah, yeah. So I have an entire video on this in the course, right. And I've

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actually covered this in my new market by last year as well. But essentially,

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this sort of shows us the humanity of the of our history, right, this is where it gets complex that we have, for the first time in Muslim history, a king, who is not pious, right in the form of Yazeed. And we see the different reactions that Muslims have to the fact that we have a king who is not pious, at the time, the Sahaba still alive. So like every Muslim ruler, before that was to some extent, a righteous person, including your own father, while we are judging, right. So until that point in time, whoever was the leader who some even didn't agree with him, they're like, Okay, he's a hobby. He's a good person or company, that that's fine. But now we have a test that the Muslims

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are facing that some of the younger Sahaba, the younger Sahaba, the people who when Rasulullah, sallAllahu, alayhi salaam passed away, these people were children. They were like eight years old, 10 years old, they are now old man. Right. So this is like, decades later. And while they are still alive, an elderly man comes into power, who is a young man who has never met the Prophet sallallaahu Salam, and who has some character flaws and some open sins, right. And so this creates tension. And this leads to people taking different positions. Some went with it, some just kept their position to themselves. Some were outspoken politically, but they didn't rebel. You're just, you know, freedom

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of speech kind of thing, as we would say, these days. Some move to other lands, it is to go over those lands we like to live in today went to Makkah and just formed his own little kingdom there. Right. And then we had Hussein Graciela, who, who, initially he went to live with Abdullah ibn Civale. But then he got letters from people out of Iraq, saying that, you know, we'll help you. So he goes there and he gets betrayed, and surrounded and killed. So it's a very tense situation. And

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first, I will say a few things about this. Number one, is that as far as the Sunni Shia split is concerned, this is like the first moment where it became an actual thing. Before this wasn't really a thing. What you will see from this point onwards in history, is that you have two political parties, the OMA years, and the descendants of the become two political parties that are fighting over leadership over who's going to be the ruling class. Some people say that goes back to early mrea. But the thing is, they didn't fight for that reason. They fought for other reasons, right? They fought over the murders of smart. So people tend to mix the two stories up. Really, this fight

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begins with when Hussein and his family are murdered, which is one of the most tragic incidents in recent history, the emotions you can imagine how emotions run wild, that someone righteous is murdered, right? You can imagine that the reaction from the average person, and many people aren't aware of this. But something in my view even worse, that happened a few weeks later, a few months later, when the people of Medina heard about Hussein's murder, they rebelled against it. And his army went in and they murdered and pillaged and even raped the Muslims of Medina for three days. Right? This is called the thing it's called the charge to power. This, to me is like the most tragic

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event in our history so tragic that we've like forgotten. it ever happened. And we will talk about Karbala. We don't talk about this. We don't talk about usually don't even think about the fact that the Muslim army, right, the descendants of the Sahaba, in Medina, just wild Sahaba were still alive. Like, we our mind just can't handle that level of, of complexity when it comes to our history. So it's understandable that people living at that time would hate the Omega found. Yeah, I mean, if you were alive at that time, you probably would have as well. Right. And it's understandable that people took up different positions and that the descendants of Hussein would want, you know, revenge. So,

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for the first 200 or 300 years, it was it was political. It was for the most part political that we had a political party, were the descendants of ally and our political parties were the only years they competed for power. But what you will find over time, is that when a group is like cut off from mainstream Islam, they end up developing their own beliefs. I see this has happened over and over and over again, right. They happen in the coverage it happened with what does he like? It happens today, like if a group of Muslims are isolated in the region. They got like in some new country or some police somewhere, they end up developing the Oh

00:30:00--> 00:30:06

beliefs. So at that time, the supporters of ally became very isolated from from the rest of the Muslim world.

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They formed an allegiance with the Abbasids to defeat the OMA yet on the condition that Abbas is you put them in power, but then the Abbas is betrayed him and they became the next empire. Right? So they get completely sidelined. And they are cut off. So the people who are supporting it with each generation are getting more fanatical about it. Right? It started off as political support 500 years later, it's like elevating the status of him and his descendants to a level that is beyond acceptable, right.

00:30:37--> 00:31:15

And at some point, this became a way of rallying support. Like if you want the zyliss village people to get riled up and to support you and to take over a city. You want to build a belief system that's going to get them riled up. Right? Yeah. So if you're going to say that this belongs to Ali and his descendants, and these people are you surprised of the throne, and we have to take it back, you are more likely for people are going to jump on your side, and go to work for you than if you're just a competing political party. So these beliefs evolved over time didn't come about in one generation, we'll find each generation more and more Bill leaves like this sneaking in, until two to 300 years

00:31:15--> 00:31:27

after the time of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam there is very distinct beliefs that are known as she believed in very distinctive needs known as Sunni beliefs, but it never happened overnight, or even in one generation, just like with each generation, more and more beliefs are piling up.

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It's fascinating and, you know, like, wow, you can kind of see the progression, you know, how, you know, division and the Ummah, like, over time, like creates, you know, these sort of, you know, beliefs that are completely else. You just wonder, think, just wonder to yourself, like, how did how did they get there? How did they reached these conclusions, but that makes a lot of sense. If it occurs, overgeneralization in our own time with the rise of ISIS, habitude, right, that we saw that first. In Egypt, Muslims were frustrated. So they formed this, they formed the jihad group and is fighting back, that they got exiled, they go to Afghanistan, they meet up there with the Arabs and

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the Taliban, al Qaeda, al Qaeda has been extremely the glue from Egypt, they grew from there was even more isolated, they split away, they become ISIS, they become so extreme that al Qaeda tells them you guys are extremists, you know, it's like with each generation, you can see the evolving, as you get more and more isolated from society, their beliefs are getting more and more stringent, you can actually see this in our own time. So that group, well, what I fear is that

00:32:33--> 00:32:43

even in 2022, you have you know, Muslims who are going to extremes, either on the left or the the right, and that is creating far more division,

00:32:44--> 00:32:52

you know, in the Ummah that we can see before our very eyes, and that kind of brings us to our next topic that you wanted to bring up. And that's the conversion of Andrew Tate.

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So I sincerely hope, no, I pray to Allah subhanaw taala that, that there's no factions that that are created out of this out of this conversion, because the my take on it was that you have, I guess, you know, I know the extreme of the progressive leftist saying, you know, that Andrews you know, like statements towards women and, and are misogynistic. And then he should, you know, we shouldn't give him a platform, even as a as a convert to Islam.

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And then the other the other take on it is that, you know, we absolutely should, you know, like, you know, like, given this huge path, because he has so much influence and he's gonna, you know, many people are going to convert to Islam because of him. So I had my take on it that we shouldn't give, we should accept this conversion, humbly ly converted to Islam, but he's not an island and he's not definitely haven't even taken it as, you know, Islam one on one course up to this point. So I think that, you know, he should just spend some time off of social media and just, you know, kind of learn the deen properly before you know, Muslims actually give him a platform. So having said that, what's

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your take on it? Shaker smell? What's your advice to brother Andrew? Okay, so the hamdulillah Firstly, we welcome for the entry to Islam and as you would any convert, and we ask Allah to make him steadfast to guide him to the best understanding of Islam and to make him an asset for this Omar.

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This is a very strange point in our history, right to be seeing Kancil culture and conversion to Islam mixing for the first time. Like, for the past 100 years, whenever a celebrity converted to Islam, it was a big deal. Everybody was on boarded, right? Whether we talking about Cat Stevens or Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson, or Dave Chappelle, you know, there's always this excitement that you know, celebrities become a Muslim. This is the first time we've seen such a visceral, angry reaction with people actually trying to push him back into apostasy like, we don't want you in our religion. I've never seen this before.

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Now I understand that there's two sides here that are

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I'm very, very against any issue, there's two sides that get extreme. But it's the first time I'm seeing this type of reaction where people seem to think that if someone said something

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wrong before Islam, especially in certain areas, that is like an unforgivable sin. Now, it's as if it's worse than

00:35:20--> 00:35:56

when you convert to Islam, all of your past sins are forgiven. But I'm seeing people saying stuff that are what he said is irredeemable. There's no way he can change, you know, it's impossible for him to change. Who are you to say that? Have you not seen how Islam transforms the hearts of humanity? I mean, I feel like this is the first generation I've seen where people don't understand what Dawa is they don't understand what conversion is, they don't understand the transformational impact that Islam can have on the hearts of a person. So my position is very simple. We welcome him to Islam, we make to offer, we give him advice, we give him Naseeha, we set up a curriculum for him

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to study, we give him time to adjust to change to the other religion, I would have, you know, my initial advice was that he should not be speaking in public, you know, until his knowledge of the religion. But I feel this is not realistic for a guy whose whole career is built around being in the public eye. So what I would say instead is, maybe you should talk about why he converted to Islam, you know, that he just didn't do a good job that was brilliant. And talk about those topics. But don't go into anything beyond that. And I see himself said that, you know, I'm not a scholar and have too much right now to learn for us. And then he actually said that in the interview, so that

00:36:32--> 00:36:32

that's good to hear

00:36:34--> 00:37:10

what we should be doing with anyone who converts to Islam, right, a few things we should be doing. Number one, welcome them. Number two, make dua for them. Number three, honestly, give them the resources to learn the religion properly, instead of assuming that they're going to run it the wrong way, that people are so worried that he's going to end up in an extremist understanding of Islam. Why are you not reaching out to him with the right books with the right videos with the right online courses and saying, study this, this is a good understanding of Islam. Why is automatically jumping to the idea that he's going to be an extremist? It's a very bizarre stance to be my position,

00:37:10--> 00:37:44

obviously, Didn't anyone convert to Islam? You give them the resources. The other thing is people are expecting overnight change. Right? I agree. This has always been a problem. For any contract. I'm sure you experienced this yourself that when you convert to Islam, people expect you to know everything and to practice everything the next day. And this is ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. We all have our sins, we all have our struggles, right? Someone who just converted yesterday still doesn't know how to pray salah. They might not even know certain things are haram yet. You have to give them education, you have to give them time. You have to help them get closer

00:37:44--> 00:38:20

to Allah push them away from Allah. And we do this for any convert, right? And people say, Oh, would you welcome, you know, a prostitute who converted to Islam? Of course we did. We've done that 1000s of times throughout our history. Anyone, anyone who is converted to Islam to other history, no matter what background they come from, we welcomed them. Because we believe Islam is the way of salvation. We believe Islam is the way to Paradise. We want this for all of humanity. And, you know, we get happy for anyone who finds true. And so this is our approach to any convert, regardless of their background, you know, someone saying, Oh, would you be happy if Donald Trump converted to

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Islam, of course, I make dua for that all the time. I will be so happy to have them converted to Islam, not happy for me happy for him, that he saves his soul in his 70s Hamdulillah that will be amazing. 70 years of sins wiped out, you don't Inshallah, you know, we make dua for everyone, we want goodness for everyone. Why is it that people have such a hatred for for, for others today that they don't want the person to be saved? They don't want the person sins to be forgiven. They don't want them to go to gender. You know, it's like, we become so consumed by identity politics, that it has taken over the fact that Islam is our religion. Yeah, it was like we don't want to be have the

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same identity as someone that we don't like that. That's not how a Muslim should behave. We should behave from a position of Dawa of wanting what's best for humanity and being a means of guidance for others never a means of pushing anyone away. And we know the dua of Rasulullah slowly said that he talked about we already know and he was Allahu

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Allah make us guided and the means of guidance for others. That is the dua because guided as a means of guidance for others, right? We're supposed to be guiding people towards Islam, not saying oh, I don't want you to follow my religion because I don't like it. I mean, can you imagine if Rasulullah sallallahu took that type of position towards the people who buried their daughters alive? Or the people who kill the sahaba? You know, that was the Quraysh then suddenly, there's so many converts used to be the total enemies of Islam who ended up what if she had had killed the prophets uncle? He had mutilated his uncle's body, but these are all people who died upon Islam. Yeah, they all welcome

00:39:55--> 00:39:59

to defeat eventually. Well, I think, no, no, I agree with everything you said that

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I smile I think, you know, I've tried to get Andrews detractors on on my show, I said, Look, and even the madman, Luke's is like, you know, we're more than welcome to have them on if they want to give their point of view. And I think it's not so much that they don't accept the fact that Andrew is converted to Islam, I think their fear is that, you know, like people who think like him are going to convert to Islam as a group. And, you know, start saying that what he's saying about women and things, you know, how Islam treats women, is acceptable. And I think, you know, like, you know, Islam, and, you know, gender relations is far more complex than, you know, the way that Andrew today

00:40:42--> 00:41:19

was talking about women before he converted to Islam. I gotta give, like, you know, an example of my own Ismail, because, you know, we're Islam for Europeans. And, you know, you know, you may have people who are former white nationalists who convert to Islam as well. And that's extremely, you know, I can understand why a lot of Muslims would be, would be, have a lot of cause for concern, like, for example of Richard Spencer, David duco, converted to Islam. But you know, the way that we handle it is at Islam for Europeans. First of all, if we were to interview these people directly, or talk to them directly, we would be cancelled right away. But I mean, that's why we sent out our

00:41:19--> 00:41:25

Declaration, which you can read on our website, that lays it out very clear that we do not support

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Muslims being oppressed, either in the non Muslim world, in the Western world, or in Muslim lands as well. Nor do we support non Muslims being oppressed or abused by abused as well. So we're very clear on that, you know, we, you know, like, we want to make it clear that, you know, this is, this is what we support, and it's, it's in line with the Quran and Sunnah. But for Andrew, it's a little bit different, because he's only he's only one person, like, you know, you know, you talked about the last podcast, the Zulus, who converted to Islam as a group, you know, they had like, a crew around them, where they could, you know, like, show that, you know, Zulu culture is adaptable to a slap,

00:42:08--> 00:42:44

but then it needs to be seen at the group level. But what do you do about someone like Andrew, where he's just kind of like, you know, he's, he's a billionaire. And, you know, he's got his own crew and everything. You know, like, I think, you know, what you said is true that he needs Islamic education, and he's to stay off social media. But I think that's one piece of the puzzle. But I think also on top of that, is having a crew of Muslims who are around him who can be a good influence, because I think, you know, your standard Moscow or in Bucharest, Romania is not going to be able to hang with with Andrew Tate. So what do you think about that? Ismail? I know, he has tam

00:42:44--> 00:43:17

Khan and aside, but I mean, do you think he's needs to have more people who are Muslim who are kind of like on the same, you know, like level as him to, like, you know, hang out with him? That's a very good point. And I've actually been thinking about that all week that how do we get him into good company? Right? Because if people are worried that he's going to bring some of his Jackie Leah into Islam, the solution that is converted, get him good teachers get into a company, within two or three years, his views will be reformed to be aligned with Quran and Sunnah. Right? And we still angry once he's preaching Quran and Sunnah, then the problem is not with him, the problem is with

00:43:17--> 00:43:17


00:43:18--> 00:43:40

So yeah, because some people aren't the other extreme, right? They are people on the other extreme, when it comes to these issues, as well. So how do we get him to get good company? I mean, maybe you and I may not have influence in this area. But someone who does should find ways, you know, like, for example, maybe other MMA fights, maybe some other hobby would be a good influence on him, you know, to get him into contact with people like that.

00:43:41--> 00:44:14

Getting into contact with other Muslim sports personalities, with some entrepreneurs who are multimillionaires, I'm doing that. I think that's one of the main reasons he's in Dubai, right meeting those kinds of Muslims. Because what they will show him I think one of the most important things he needs to learn and that he can learn from a Muslim multimillionaire is how to live in Islamic lifestyle while working, right, without flaunting that wealth, the importance of Zakkai or cough and sadaqa, you know, humility, that you can't learn from a book that you have to learn from your friends, you have to learn from being around people like that. I think that might be the

00:44:14--> 00:44:30

biggest adjustment for him, as he grows into Islam is learning the Islamic lifestyle of a wealthy person that we don't show up our wealth, we don't flaunt it, you know. So, I'm hoping that those are the kinds of people he meets, I'm hoping that's the kind of

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message he learns. I don't know if you and I have the ability to reach out to him and help him. I'm trying to find a way I realized, you know, networking, always one or two degrees of separation away from everybody. So just trying to find the shortest, you know, chain to him so I can get in contact and help him but those who are in contact with him the job in them, I hope that they are putting him in contact with such people. He himself said earlier to the podcast that you are the five people you

00:45:00--> 00:45:19

proposes to write that their personalities affect you. So I hope he he said that himself will be realized that also includes his understanding of his of Islam will be based on the five Muslims he spends the most time with. So definitely need. It's a unique challenge, because most people I know who convert to Islam don't come from wealthy backgrounds.

00:45:21--> 00:45:22

That's a very, very

00:45:24--> 00:45:25

unique position to come from today.

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But even giving him the biographies of other people like Muhammad Ali, maybe getting to the Muhammad Ali's biography, see what he did with his wealth. I mean, he spent his wealth feasability law, you know, building up centers all over the US, these can be things that could be inspirational for him.

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But the end of the day, you know, this is a problem that those who are close to him will have to solve. It's definitely a real problem. I think people who have who have one who's gonna be taken off takes for granted, we don't realize the challenges that come we've been a conflict. Yeah, it's a it's a unique set of challenges. And we don't we, as Congress don't understand the challenges of of born Muslims.

00:46:03--> 00:46:34

I mean, it's, they're totally different situations. I mean, there's some overlap. But, you know, that doesn't mean that, you know, we can't support one another, I just think that these tasks need to be a bit more specialized. Like, you know, like, sometimes they'll take the convert to Islam at a mosque and say, you know, you need to lead our community now, or he'll take it upon himself to say, you know, this is what the Muslim community needs to do. And it ends up being cringed because he really doesn't understand this perspective of a born Muslims living in the West.

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So, yeah, I really believe convert need to be in the beginning, students and followers. Right, as you and you've convert to Islam, you have to be a student and a father and you need to be humble about it. Inshallah, someone wants to humble you. hamdulillah we've seen from Hamza Yusuf to Dr. Bilal Philips. So, Marcel to hatch them convert go on to become a llama have this. Right. That is possible. But the journey takes a long time, right? We talk to people who convert in the 60s. We all are by the 90s. Well, yeah, a lot of people never ever reach that. I mean, it's only a thin slice of Congress when making it exact level, but it is possible. But people now expect the problem is people

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expect the Columbo to have that level of knowledge within the year. It's like ridiculous expectations that people have. Yeah, I think, you know, like for religious, you know, Muslims who are from a born Muslim background, they see their own societies, and they lament the fact that that the that all of the other community members are not are not practicing at the level that they should be. And no, they have every right to feel to feel sad about that. But I think, you know, it's kind of this like, hockey dad mentality where they get this new conference, I think, you know, if you know, the West converts to Islam on math, like they're all going to be super pious, which I don't

00:47:49--> 00:48:01

think is true. I mean, you know, like, I think if we converted to Islam and groups, and these barriers are removed to actually convert to Islam, you would see a range of different levels of religiousness. That would be

00:48:02--> 00:48:06

amongst the one Muslims, or similar to born Muslims. That's exactly what I'm saying.

00:48:07--> 00:48:41

I mean, even at the convent we know today, Dave Chappelle Mike Tyson, pious, but hamdulillah the Muslims, at least they have to eat they have Imam Right. And, you know, David die upon him and you can make your call to Allah to forgive them for their sins. I mean, being on that level is still better than rejecting the message when you know it is true. Yeah. And Dave was very smart about it. You know, when when Dave Letterman asked Dave Chappelle, like, Are you a Muslim? Dave Chappelle is like yes, but I'm not good at it. And that level of honesty and humility is is something that's praiseworthy is something that's big. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so this was a great

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conversation. So sorry, sorry, it started late as his smile. Is there anything else you wanted to talk about? In regards to your work or the the course where can people find your his thought history of Islam course people can buy it? Yeah, so the history of Islam course you'll find it on my website, Islamic South health.com. It's one of the first things you'll see on the website. I think you share the link to it as well. Right. And

00:49:06--> 00:49:35

the other thing I wanted to share it I am starting a new website actually launching it next week called is Academy right and this website will focus on reviving the correct teachings on masculinity and femininity as per Quran and Sunnah. And helping people learn about marriage and parenting so the goal of the of the of the of Isaiah Academy will be for teaching people or other reviving to some families, right, getting rid of this whole negative culture that the younger generation have towards marriage and what's the opposite gender

00:49:37--> 00:49:59

and just I want to see loving happy Muslim homes again, to be the norm once again. So I'm starting something very small at the moment is going to be a blog and videos in the beginning, overtime, maybe in try to go into something special. But the idea is I wanted a platform to work towards this goal. So this is going to be separate from Islamic self help. Islamic self help is about personal development is about going into the best version of yourself, or using this time.

00:50:00--> 00:50:35

The principles is Academy it will be about relationships. How do you be a manly man? How do you be a woman, the woman? How do you make marriages work? How do you have a loving marriage? How to be a great parent? How do you have a loving home? Now these will be the topics that that we'll focus on. So it's two separate projects. Shaohua. So yeah, got my work cut out for me now, because between again, and visa and Islamic self help, I'm doing a lot, but I believe this is necessary. Well, people have been asking me to do this for a while now. Because with each passing month, the extremes on both ends when it comes to gender relations are getting more and more present. Like the things

00:50:35--> 00:51:09

we're hearing about what is masculinity and what what is a woman's role are getting more and more further away from the Quran and Sunnah. And people are starting to hate each other, they're starting to hate the opposite gender. And that's completely anti Islamic, right? The Quran is very clear that Muslim men and Muslim woman are ODR to each other, that we are each other's allies, that men and women are supposed to care about each other and love each other and work together. We're not seeing this anymore. You see, I hate on everything. I hate a woman. How is how are you ever going to have a family? You know, like, if someone hates on men? How are they ever going to get married and have a

00:51:09--> 00:51:40

loving relationship with the husband? Same with a man who hates a woman? How is he ever going to marry a woman and have a loving relationship with her. So these divisions are scaring me they weren't worried about the next generations attitude towards marriage, I believe a bit of education is necessary to bring people towards a balanced understanding. I will go with inshallah with this would be to revive the Muslim families and to have happy loving homes where the men do the role that the Quran and Sunnah has prescribed for them and the woman do as well. And everyone's happy and everyone has good now Beatrice. But again, there's something you are probably starting it soon. I

00:51:40--> 00:52:20

just have one blog post out at the moment and setting it slowly, quietly, and see where it goes from there. So just make dua that my projects are successful. I mean, it shall it will be successful, she could smile. I released a video a couple of months ago on why European Muslim women are not watching Islam for Europeans. And up until now our viewership has been almost exclusively male. And it's been very tough getting off it because Islam has such strict rules on gender separation. You know, like, at least for born Muslims, they still have, you know, family members of the opposite gender, or community members of the opposite gender that they can now communicate with through the grapevine.

00:52:20--> 00:52:57

But for us converts, like there's absolutely no even communication. So it's almost like, you know, it's, it's almost impossible to get something like this off the ground. But it must be difficult for hormones to just because I see, you know, like you said, such hate between men and women are Muslim men and women online. I'm just thinking myself, how are these people gonna get married and have a stable family? It just boggles my mind. That's the same thing that boggles my mind with these kids is like, do they even realize you know, when you when you say you hate all members of the opposite gender, that your dad that your siblings, if you have a dad and siblings, or you know that your mom,

00:52:57--> 00:53:35

you know, like the vulgar things coming out from both sides, it's scary and I believe this can be solved within a generation. Right just with the right the right resources, the right teachers, the right platforms. I think this can be solved within one generation. The mistake came about within one generation that's a whole nother story to go into. Right. But it can be solved with one generation and this is going to be a humble effort towards trying to do so shall shall shake us welcome there. Thank you so much for for coming on. Sorry about the technical difficulties, but I'm glad we got it off the road. And please subscribe to Islam for Europeans like and subscribe to our channel. Also

00:53:35--> 00:54:11

check out shake his smiles history of Islam. Course he's offering $10 off, is that correct? Yeah. $10 off if you use the link below to join it. Okay, wonderful. And I've been watching it as well. It's very user friendly. Like I just like to pop it on and you know, like, you know, you don't have to worry about it. You know, it's very you know, it just clicked on a Lincoln you can choose any lecture you like if you want to look at like the Ottomans or do my ads or the life of the prophet. So selama it's all there for you whenever you want. Okay, that's it. This was our first successful episode of beef, bacon and eggs. If you know anyone else who wants to come on for an interview. It's

00:54:11--> 00:54:25

Saturdays after fajr eastern standard time at 7am. But I'm your host, Robert, at Islam for Europeans. Thank you very much. Take a smell for coming on. A Salam alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh who was a customer