Channel: Hamza Tzortzis
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Salam Alaikum brothers, sisters and friends. Welcome to a new episode of The GDM show the global movement show. We're back today with brother Hamza Sonic, violet, Muslim Rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh. Good to see you. Excellent. So, last week we did Episode One of why you can't claim scientific miracles in the Quran. And what we showed us that you claim scientific miracles of the ground, you undermine the ground itself. Not only do you undermine the Qur'an, but you undermine science, because you're assuming the science is static, and it's never going to change. Yes. So that was one of the points basically, right. So you may want to touch upon them quickly before we move on. The
first point was that you can't use science to prove the Quran because science is changing, right? Okay. If you go into the philosophy of science, on any level, to any academic, you will see that scientists are supposed to be static, there are no Moses tablets. If you look at the works of Eliot solver, Alex Rosenberg, status, seelos, goetsch, and others, you see that science is changing, because we're always going to have a future observation that might that may undermine previous conclusions, which was based on previous limited observations. If you look into induction, the problem of induction, you look into empiricism, we see that they have a scope that they're limited,
that you can always maybe have a future observation that's going to deny previous conclusion. So you know, science is beautiful, it's supposed to change, it's supposed to evolve from that perspective, right? So how can you use a transit method or time bound method to basically justify something that we consider to be timeless? Yes, it just doesn't work. It's a methodological inconsistency here. And this is why every time you say that there is a miracle in the corner of scientific miracle in the Quran, and you say that this is the science and this is the meaning from the Quran, then you've done two things, two assumptions that you've basically assumed one, that this science is never going to
change. And to that this is the meaning that was intended by Allah.
Right? This was the meaning intended by Allah.
And that's the only meaning Can you prove these two things? Not necessarily, because many of the, the words describing natural phenomena are not really explained by anything else, other than going into the Arabic language itself, which has many layers of meaning, how do you know that is the particular meaning that was intended by a lot? And also, when you look at the size, can you really say this science is a fact and will never change? You can't write? You can't because the beauty of science is that you can't have future observations of July previous because that was number one. The other one, the other one was that they claim the presence of them could have never have access to
other civilizations, to have access to knowledge. That was scientifically crude. Yeah, but true.
That's not true. Because the prophets of Allah who it was, um, as established by his own Santa, by his own way, you could find this in the prophetic traditions in Sahih Muslim, that he looked into the Persians enrollments, to see if he could basically allow his companions to cohabit with the wives that were breastfeeding us. And he found it was okay for the Persians, the Romans definitely completed as a key for his companions. So if you can't claim that he didn't have access to other civilizations, so we've got to their knowledge, scientific and medical. The other
assertion that we made was that you can't see that the verses in the Quran that talk about natural phenomena,
talk about natural phenomena in a way that no one else spoke about. That's not correct, either. Because many of the verses that talk about natural phenomena
relate to knowledge that was an existing previous to the question. For example, the Greeks, the Sumerians, the ancient Egyptians. Yeah, for example, there's a so called miracle claim that iron was sent down from heaven. Yes, because Allah says, iron was sent down. That's true scientifically, in some meteorites, you have iron ore from that perspective and sent down. But is it miraculous? No, because you had the ancient Egyptians I believe, 1200 years before the revelation of the Quran that called iron by inpit, which means I am from heaven. Yes. So we gave many examples in Sumerian literature in, in Greek philosophy and thinking and in the Egyptians, to show that that information
was already available, okay. Now, it doesn't mean the Quran borrowed. It doesn't mean the Quran is not true to what I'm saying that we're just saying that you cannot make the claim that it's a crime as a scientific merit. Okay, good. So I mean, if you want more detail, you brother sisters, guys watching can go to the first episode. Yes. And they can watch it. We'll put a link in the description box. Moving on swiftly. I've got a few questions for you today is that and it's to do with the new approach? Yes, it's a multi layered approach to the Quran that we were offering instead of these miracles, and it's far more profound in many ways profoundly allows people to basically do
due to due to the bar on the Quran to ponder upon the Quran. Yes, it doesn't give you like,
here's a miracle. It's not like fireworks and angels coming down, but it actually is, is more warm in a way. It allows you to really have a relationship with the book.
Allah subhanho wa Taala Allah to really ponder upon his verses because Allah says, I forget to the Quran Of course and then reflect upon the Quran or the locks on their hearts. So from this perspective, the more pondering we do, the more hearts may become unlocked to receive the mercy and guidance of Allah. Now, this is not only the multi layered approach is called the multi level approach as well. So what does the multi layered and multi level approach mean? Very simple. The Quran uses a word for a description of a particular natural phenomenon, okay?
That word has many layers of meaning. Because we know the Arabic language is rich, it doesn't have an infinite number of meanings, but it has a scope, according to the classical dictionaries as preserved in the early centuries of Islam. So you have many layers of meaning. Each layer of meaning addresses different levels of understanding over time, right? Okay, this is very profound. So the core end uses a word with many layers of meaning. And each layer of meaning addresses different levels of understanding over time, which is more in line with what the Quran is supposed to do, because the whole raison d'etre, the reason for existence, if you like for many of these verses,
concerning natural phenomena, are there to make you think about the fact that Allah deserves to be worshipped, there's wisdom in the universe. If you look at the classical exegesis be scholarly about this. Not many of the prophecy of the exegetical wax actually spoke about scientific miracles are new sciences. Many of them said, That's not the job of the versus the job of the verse is to meet you, for you to do your own reflection, to conclude that Allah does have to be worked on there's wisdom in the universe, not that there's something very specific about the kind of words that are used and currently with the scientific findings, no, because it changes over time. It's there just
to act as a signpost, a signpost to divine wisdom and signpost due to the worship of the device. Okay, that's excellent now.
So that's a very powerful claim. Now, give us some examples to back that claim. Ah, there's many examples to back this claim. For example, let me give you one the orbits the Quran in chapter 21, verse 33, says, and it is he who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon, all in an orbit are swimming, swimming, and the Arabic word used here is yes Barona swimming. Now think about the multi layered multi level approach. So take one layer of meaning, which means swimming, addresses a level of understanding in the seventh century, which was understood, just looking at the cosmos with the naked eye, you have a desert, Arab, looking to the night sky, seeing the moon move,
looking the sun, looking at the sun move, the constellations are changing all the time. And all of these things, he understands that these celestial objects are swimming in the ocean of space. It's not a miracle, but it does its job, it's there to get the seventh century mindset, this particular level of understanding, to reflect on the phenomenon to conclude that Allah deserves to be worshipped, because who put them there, who created the physical causes in the universe for that to happen? It must be the divine mind, if you like right, the old knowing being and, and He therefore he deserves to be worshipped. However, continuing with this multi layered multi level approach, even
the word Yes, Puna can relate to a 21st century understanding that's not only swimming, but its orbits celestial mechanics, do you see, this doesn't mean it's a miracle, but it means that it still can address our understanding of the reality, right. And that's the point. It's not supposed to give you how these orbits work and the nature of these orbits and the scientific nuances of these orbits and celestial mechanics. But it points you to that direction. So you can reflect. And therefore you can conclude, wow, there's something going on in the universe. Allah deserves to be worshipped. Now at this, and this is why Muslim Samir, who is a professor of Islamic Studies at Youngstown State
University, he also makes his point he advocates this multi layered multi level approach. And he says the word Yes, but hoonah swim or float in the verse, and it's the verse that we just mentioned, made good sense to seventh century Arabs observing natural phenomena with the naked eye. It is equally meaningful to us in light of today's scientific findings, ie, celestial mechanics. So he's trying to say, look, there's a word here at different layers of meaning, and it addresses different levels of understanding. Now, one would argue, but this verse also is talking about the sun having its own orbit. Doesn't that mean that the Quran is wrong? Because referring to the fact that seventh
century primitive, understanding that the sun was going around the Earth? No, don't read into the Quran, allow the Quran to speak for itself, because many people do this. You have atheists and skeptics saying, oh, why would I believe in a book
That says that the sun goes down that, hey, you've done that reading, not the court and allow the crown to speak for itself don't have presuppositions. But when we apply this approach to this verse we see, maybe it was addressing the level, so multi level, the level of understanding with a seventh century Arab, which probably they thought that the sun was going on Earth. But that very fact itself was still in still some kind of all and evoke an understanding that someone is doing that. And there's a divine wisdom in the universe. But at the same time, it can also mean that the sun has it has its own orbits and movement, not necessarily around the Earth, yes, but he just has his own
orbit. Yep. And that's actually true. Through a perspective of another level, which is the 21st century level of understanding, because we now know the sun does have his own orbit. it orbits the Milky Way, and it takes 226 million years to do so. So just before we move on, there's a contention that can be made there. There is what you're saying is that the Quranic verses have many layers of meaning, yes, many levels of meaning. So they make sense to someone in the past and in the present and in different contexts. Yes. Someone may say, Well, what you're saying, by the way, I'm only referring to natural phenomena, right? Because if you study the sciences of Tafseer, of EXA, Jesus,
you can't change the meaning. Yes. Because if you have Hadees, a prophetic tradition, the prophet Mohammed upon him when he's explaining a verse, you can't go beyond that, right? If you have any Jamal, or LMR, for example, consensus of the scholars, or of their students, or whatever the case may be, many people know the sciences of Tafseer. You can't change meaning Yeah, we are talking about the verses that do not have scholarly consensus, do not have the Prophet Mohammed upon him is explaining them per se. That's in where you have to refer to the linguistics the language, go to pre Islamic poetry, whatever the case may be, to find out what was the linguistic understanding of this
meaning because there is additional relinquishing understanding, and Islamic Sharia understanding. And so but once you exhaust all the other sources, which is the consensus, which is the prophetic tradition of the Prophet Mohammed Abu upon VPS, explaining the verse, you know, if you don't have any information from these sources, then you have to rely on the language. So that's what we're talking about. Civic contention also was talking about was, someone may say, Well, you're saying that word or worse may have multiple meaning, yes. And they say, well, you're doing XYZ, well, the verse may have these extensions may or may have you an endless amount meanings. And wherever happens
in reality, you just correlate with the ground is convenient. That's that's not true, because we're gonna discuss this at the end as well, because there are some verses which you can't create. It's designed to talk, right? But it doesn't mean the crane is wrong. It might mean that that science will catch up, yes, or that it's a it's a way of motivating the reader to do more science. So, but that's not the point. The point here is no one is claiming an infinite number of meanings or particular words. There's a scope of meaning. For example, we're gonna discuss this now the word alaka has like around five meanings. It doesn't have 200 Yes, five. Do you see my point? It has a
scope of mean right. Okay, excellent. So let's give the let's talk about case study. Now, right? Let's use the word aloka. Now, the word aloka can be found in many places in the court and specifically in chapter 23, verse 14, and it's to describe the development of the human being many people think this is the this is embryology right. Now, the word Allah has five major meanings according to me dictionaries, like Lane's lexicon is an Arab and many others one of the meanings is blood in a general sense. Number two, a blood clot number three clay that stick sticks to the hand, or clings to the hand. Number four, something that clings number five electro when these are
established meanings, and we know that establish meanings as well, because even ninth century Greeks who tried to translate the Quran even use the word leech in the Greek language to describe the word Allah in the Quran. So there was a kind of linguistic environment that these meanings were popping up. Yeah. So there's those five meanings Now, let's apply our approach to multi level multi multi layered multi level approach is a big tongue twister politics. So
from a seventh century perspective, we know that many of the Arabs and the people around that pinion sit around that time adopted a Greek understanding that's that's the best interest we can make. Because you had the Greek physician second century physician, Galen, he wrote the works on semen and other works concerning medicine and embryology and the development of the human being, and that would translate in Egypt. And you could find them I believe in Alexandria in the sixth century, I believe. You even had them in Iraq. And so therefore, surrounding that environment, you had a galenic or IRAs to talian Greek understanding of these things, right.
That's the best thing.
To make a special one, we know that they were traders and they exchange knowledge. Right? So the seventh century, most probably for the embryo to be a blood clot.
Now, this is not necessarily wrong from a naked eye perspective, when you have natural abortions, which are called miscarriages, especially around a 20 to 40 or something. The embryo looks like
a blood clot. Basically, it's a fleshy, bloody filled thing, right? Especially day 2225. Now, that's exactly what gayden wrote about the Greek physician in the second century, he wrote the book on semen. And he's the words Sadko idiots, which in Greek means fleshy, and Mr. Das, which means bloody there's another word he uses, which means filled by forgot what word he used. So basically, he's describing the embro, sand positions and time as a bloody, fleshy, bloody, filled thing, right? It's like a blood clot, right? And the word alaka means blood in a general sense of blood clot. Yeah. So if the service that you Arab had the understanding, that layer of meaning is in line with his
understanding, right? And it's not there to give you details about embryology, it is ridiculous. It's there to evoke. Or say, Wow, you create the laws in the universe that enables this bloody mess, this blood clot, this bloody, fleshy thing to turn into someone like me. Yeah. Whoever did that, is all knowing and deserves worship. Do you see that's the that's the narrative the animals, he doesn't want you to think here is a scientific textbook, here's all the embryology No, because we already know that if you do that, you get yourself in a big mess, right. So that's the seven essential understanding.
And there's lots of pictures that you can see online and offline. And in the textbooks that you know, it looks like a bloody fleshy food thing right?
Now, it's also appropriate for our time, so take another layer of its meaning, which is liter one, right? And take the level of understanding that we have now because we have the microscope, it was developed in the 15th century, discover in the 15th century, and use it and you'll see around day 20 to 25, or day 22 3022 to 30, you see that the the embryo looks like a blood clot. Luckily, that's why Dr. Darrell layman describes it as a worm, even pz Myers, the atheist critic, academic, he describes as a worm, maybe it was a slip of a tongue but it's it's in it's in it's one of his old blogs. That's what it looks like. It looks like it just looks like
a lychee thing, when we think Yeah. Now, what's interesting is when you use a microscope, and you look at the embro, at that stage, day, 22 to 25, or something you see looks like a literal worm. Not only that, not only the external features, but if you were to dissect a medicinal leech, you see that it still looks like a literal worm. That's similar stage. So the point here is Maybe it means that Allah knows God knows, right. But the point is, we're not saying there's anything miraculous here, when we're saying that we're just doing a double reflection.
Now, so therefore, what we can, what we've shown so far is you take the different layers of meaning, they address different levels of understanding, right seventh century and a 21st century.
What I like to do, though, is not only focused on an empirical biological paradigm, I like to focus on the spiritual paradigm. So because there's another aspect to looking at these verses is not even to look at it from a scientific perspective, is to look at it from a timeless non scientific perspective, a spiritual perspective, because maybe a light is describing us as literally just like leeches that we will parasites in our mother's womb, because what Leach does, you put Leach in your head, it will suck the blood, who just drain your resources, and it will just roll off and it's had a nice Baker, right? It's taken what he needs and he's drained, your blood is a parasite.
The embryo is no different. Fire isn't a sack, the mothers the maternal blood, but it does raise her blood
in order to get what it wants. That's why mothers have to eat not only for the baby, but for themselves to keep healthy because the baby is going to take what it wants. There's this parasitic relationship. So from a spiritual perspective, an emotional perspective is going to make us realize, hey, you were like a parasite, lower the wing of humanity to your mother be more compassionate. If it wasn't for her, you won't be here you are dependent, you know, self sufficient. And also she willingly and willfully gave herself resources so you could be born because she could have stopped. She was so bad on this baby anymore. Or she could have said God knows what she wants, she could have
done. The point is she willingly and willfully allowed her body to be used by you in a parasitical way? Because you drained her resources, they should make you feel Oh my God, I should love my mother more, I should respect him more. And I'm not self sufficient. I'm dependent on my mother, and therefore ultimately dependent on God.
See, that's a more of a spiritual insight. You know, it's very interesting professor of science Lord Robert Wilson. He's an emeritus professor of fertility studies at Imperial College, in a documentary and will give you a link for you to see this. Look what he said, or hear what he said. He said, The leech takes whatever it needs to live by sucking the blood of whatever, whatever it can latch on to. In that case, it's that's me, he had a liter in his hand, as it sucks my blood, it takes from it all that it needs to live, it literally lives off me and the whole of pregnancy is shaped by a similar kind of parasitic relationship. Unlike the leech, the developing embryo doesn't suck maternal blood.
But it does read her blood for the raw materials, it needs to grow from the word go both Leach and embryo out for themselves. So from this perspective, you can see there's many layers of meaning, and address the different levels of understanding or non scientific understanding, at 21st century understanding, and a central central understanding. So not supposed to give you details. It's supposed to point you to those directors, the book of signs, is supposed to look at that sign, conclude whatever you want about that sign concerning its scientific details. But what's weaving itself through the understanding is the ultimate conclusion that there's wisdom in the universe that
God deserves to be worshipped? Because the point is God wants to speak to the seventh century man, the 15th century man and the 21st century man, not just us, right? So from this perspective, is a new approach. It doesn't claim miracle. But it's profound because it gets people to do to ponder upon the Quran. And the Quran says, Do not ponder upon this Quran or the locks on their hearts, which in a way can mean that the more pondering you do, the more your heart becomes unlocked, to receive His guidance and mercy. Now, there is a final contention, because as we just mentioned, that they may say, there's no science, for some of the verses, some of the verses that it mentions cannot
be justified scientifically at all. So what do we say to this? Well, it's very simple. No one is claiming that every single verse relating to natural phenomena, phenomena must be scientifically understood maybe has a non spiritual or non scientific meaning like a spiritual meaning that we've seen. Or it could be related to a scientific understanding that we don't know of yet. Right? Yeah. Or it could be a perspective that we haven't understood yet. The point is, maybe science will catch up. Why do you think that science and revelation always have to agree with each other? If that's the case, in the 19th century Muslim would have a huge problem. Because the 19th century they believe
that the universe never began, but the Quran says the universe began. So would you do? So from this perspective? Yes, there can be many cases where science contradicts the Quran. And the point here is big deal. Yeah.
Science is gonna change some maybe understanding of the crowd is not good enough. You know, these things are agree in in many instances, I mean, if you look even at the classical exegetical works, even this could have disagreed on certain realities. This is the beauty of the crannis ponder is the could be a contradiction, big deal. We know science changes.
So we haven't got the full scientific conclusion yet, even if we believe is 99% true, that could be paradigm shifts, we know the history of science, and also the Quran. How did you know that is the meaning of the credit? How do you know you're doing the right?
And how do you know you have the right understanding of the Quran? It could it could be talking about something as non empirical Yes, it may even talk about something that seems to be empirical, but maybe has a spiritual meaning. So we don't know. The point here is though, that's the beauty of the crown is supposed to get you to think and to ponder further. And that's why the Quran was understood by the early Muslims, and encouraged them to do more science like even al Haytham, who's known to be the first scientist. According to David C. Limburg, a historian of science he wrote, he wrote the book on optics. And in his autobiography, like he said, I wrote the book of optics, which
was the first manifestation of the formal scientific method. I wrote this because I was encouraged by the Quran, the Quran pointed me to these realities, didn't give him details, but he pointed him just look, look how God makes things work, right. And he encouraged them to do more science. So Muslims should love science should do more science should not have a problem with science contradicts the Quran that's not a problem, either. Because we know science can change and encourage us to see the Quran in a different way. And, you know, the Quran is primarily a book that is there for us to conclude that God deserves to be worshipped. Not that there's any details in this in the
sciences, or the details in these verses rather. So I don't know. Any other questions? I think you've covered it really well, we have over time. I mean, there is more questions, and we will address them in the future because, yeah, you can't you can't you can't address this very detailed subject in just to shows that it's food for thought. And my encouragement to the Muslims and to the non Muslims, especially to the Muslims, is to, you know, challenge the existing narrative at the moment because I do feel that it's quite
dangerous and yes, I myself was responsible for it too. But we need to change we need to be sincere. And we need to basically have more robust narratives. And that social challenge as many people as possible in a positive way have good other good etiquette and a flock and respect and love and compassion. So we could have a more robust narrative that allows the crown to speak for itself. I think that's perfectly summed up like you said, there's a lot more to it, but I think it gives people a taste for what's going on. If you're just to conclude last 30 seconds, what would you say? How can people take this information and now popularizer, gay out to others, so they can actually
start using this and not make the mistakes that were made in the past, basically? Well, firstly, what they can do is understand this new approach further, read the essay that we've provided, listen to this show, again, speak to their scholars speak to people who know, and maybe podcast, write their own essays, do their own videos, challenge the people who are articulating the so called scientific miracles claim because I think it misrepresents the Quran, and it also misrepresents science. And once they challenge that, and yes, you know, don't be rude, be nice, you know, be polite. And I believe that we will allow the Quran to speak for itself. And we will revive the
spiritual nature of the crown, which was the main reason for the crown to make it as good as have to be watched one of the some, there's some kind of scientific details in this book, there isn't the core and is there to make you think about reality to conclude that he deserves to be worshipped. And that's the focus. But what we've done, we shifted it away to Hey, have you seen this word is so amazing. Look at this. It's fantastic. And the faith hangs on this thing. thread. Yeah, on science. You can't do that. Because the beauty of science is that that thread is supposed to break all the time, because it's supposed to change. That's the beauty of science. That's why we discover new
things. That's what we have new approaches. So we have new theories. So we have new conclusions, because we do more seismic observation, we get more data, and we have different conclusions. So the point is, you can't you can't see the crime, that was a very dangerous way of basing your entire faith. And not that it's inconsistent. It's not robust, and it's incoherent. And I think is probably one of the main reasons for a lot of people actually leaving Islam because they haven't understood the plan properly, because we've given them the wrong type of understanding. We give them the wrong lenses to understand that, but I think it's time to change that now, inshallah it will, we have to
change it, we have to change it. And I mean, I was I was doing webinars on this for the I've been doing webinars and seminars on this for the past few years.
I think three years now, two and a half years. And it's hard. It's hard to change it. The reason we want to do these shows is for people to adopt this further. And for us to basically move forward as a community and be more robust. Yes, but you know, it's a lonely space at the moment. I think not. I mean, there are a lot of people who agree with us, but we need more voices and we need more let we need more loudspeakers to adopt this. I sent my essay to shut Akram nadwi. He said it should be translated into the main Muslim languages. He loved it, he sent it to his students. I sent it to start on Molokai and he sent it to his students and his and his people.
Normally, I believe adopts this approach now abderrahim green adopts this approach now. So you know, there's a slow, slowly but surely changing narrative and if you were to summarize the whole narrative, Allah is Allah Hakeem he is the wise he has the picture, we just have the pixel wherever we know we're going to catch up to the divine knowledge. So hopefully this has been beneficial. Abraham's of coming on and doing this and it shall stay tuned, share the video, make sure you subscribe to the channel. And once again, slowly Curatola. He will vericut