General Election 2017
Channel: Haitham al-Haddad
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Episode Transcript ©
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Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah Dear brothers, sisters and friends. I'm your host Salman but for this Islam 21 see big discussion panel on your questions related to the general election 2017. With us today on our panel we have as an ally, one of the directors of mend which is short for Muslim engagement and development. And to his right, we have our chef Dr. Haytham and her dad from the Islamic Council of Europe.
Over the course of the next 90 minutes or so, I'll be putting your questions to the panelists that we've been taking from our social media platforms. And I'd like to issue the mother of all disclaimers before we begin. And that is I will be challenging and trying to grill our esteemed panelists using our audience members questions. So I will be putting questions and challenges for that. I don't necessarily hold myself. And I have to just make that caveat clear. So before we actually go into the meat of the discussion, I'd like to ask as early if you could just explain why we are here and what we're talking about. Sure. So like home handler, Villa La Mina salat wa salam
ala Rasulillah Karima My bad. Why are we here? Because a snap election has been caught, I suppose, is caught everyone by surprise. So on June the eighth, we are having a general election. And I think we're here to actually discuss what that means for us as a community in particular, but overall as a society, you know, what are the things that we should be looking at for? How do we engage with it? What benefits do we get? And, you know, what are the challenges? So there's a number of areas we want to discuss, and yeah, quite welcome the audience participation and challenges. Excellent.
And just to remind the audience, you can tweet us at Islam 21 C, using the hashtag, g 2017. You can also write some questions down in the comment section or whichever player you're watching now, and we will try our best to put those to the panelists. Now she face him.
Gave him I haven't de la que Kahala is that?
You are quite warm. Isn't it is very hot Marshall. Yeah. But you look as if you are cold.
It must be the studio. Maybe they shake you up. You're a it wouldn't be inaccurate to say that you are a controversial person. According to some people. According to maybe some right wing newspapers, you're you're spoken about, according to others. A very lovely person. Yes. We love you for the sake of most most of the people believe that I'm a lovely person didn't ask ask.
I'll ask him in a moment. Yeah. So one thing you have drawn some controversy around surrounding is that you actually encourage Muslims in the UK to vote in elections such as the general election. And we've we've seen some of your work on Psalm 21. See, talking about and writing about the general election. So could you before I put some questions from the audience, could you just outline your basic view with regards to voting in the general election such as this one? Yeah. Rahim Al hamdu lillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah. The issue for me is
a matter of identity who we are as Muslims in the UK. Are we immigrants? Visitors? Yes. Is this our country? These places in Europe? Are they our countries? Okay, I'm not talking about Muslims in Britain, or British Muslims. I'm talking to all Muslims in Europe or call it I like to call it European Muslims. In fact, I was in Holland a few weeks ago, again, campaigning, to encourage Dutch Muslims to vote and to be politically active in the whole political process. I was also in Germany and also postures participated in sort of a campaign. The issue is if we believe that Europe is our place is our country. Yeah. Britain is our country as British Muslims and we are not Muslims
visiting Europe or Muslims in Europe, we are British Muslims, then we need to look what would be better for this country on a long term because it is our country. It is the place we are living in what would be best for us on a long term. Okay. Now, going back to your question. Previously, I was encouraging Muslims, you know, to vote, actively encouraging Muslims to vote, and maybe to your shock. I have changed my view. Just let me shock the baby.
The audience, I have changed my views actually, regarding voting. Yeah. Previously, I used to believe that
it is highly recommended. And now I strongly believe that it is almost obligatory. Yeah, almost as a good shot.
First, robins No, honestly speaking. Yeah, honestly speaking, I believe internally that it is obligatory. I don't want to make it clear like this. It is obligatory it is Why do you have you will be sinful if you do not vote? Why? Because people will just focus on this issue and delete the whole issue. We don't want it. I think the discussion regarding the permissibility of voting or not voting. Okay, participating in the political process. I think it is, it should be absolute. By now. We should really move forward. I know that some people are stuck with it. And there's still people. I was in another city yesterday. Okay, I gave hotbar in another city. And people asked me about
this. And that was a shock for me. It's still people are asking, when I was in Holland. Oh, we have actually progressed as as British Muslims, but Dutch Muslims, they are still stuck, or some of them they are still stuck.
German Muslims, they are still stuck in in this, we need to move forward. This should be an old discussion. Now. Yeah. But Sure. Let me put in a few contentions to you. Okay, so you are very well respected share in this country. But truth be told, me, even me personally, myself personally, in many brothers and sisters, I know, it's a very attractive argument for us
to accept a certain view that says,
democracy itself, the whole institution of democracy, the nation state and so forth, is inherently something Islamic. Right? And those sheiks and scholars who come and give, you know, rulings about voting, they actually agree, they say, Look, this is something bad. Voting is something bad democracy, something bad, inherently, but you know, where we should do it because of X Y, Zed benefit. This is a common kind of conception, or a common description of the arguments, many arguments from scholars such as yourself and all around the world who say, you know, we should participate in whether it's recommended or obligatory or whatever. Could you clarify this? Is this
something you believe? Yeah, is? Yeah, this is a good question, actually. And maybe it's a good start, although I don't want to spend much time on it, to be honest with you, okay, because I believe that we should really move forward, those who believe that you should not participate, let them believe in this, let them still stand still, where they are, okay, we cannot just keep worried about them and chasing them and saying and begging them, please change your views, etc. Which is a very attractive, you know, it is very attractive, but the number of people who believe in this, I believe, what do you think?
I was gonna interject I think the number of people who hold that view exactly, as the chef says, is a few. They do have a loud voice, but they are few majority of the Muslims, if we just take this country now majority Muslims, they don't have an issue with it at all. Yeah, the key thing I think, however, is this, what should be addressed? is, are we concerned? Do we believe? Yeah, this is a from my own observation. I don't know about us. Do Muslims believe that they should really do it? Does it make a difference? Yeah. To participate? Are we going to see any real change? Yeah, that is the key. The passiveness that follow will get on to those who just joined but those who even amongst
many of those brothers and sisters who who argue and say we should vote, even amongst some of them, they are under the impression that okay, in its essence is something wrong, but we're doing it okay. Let me clarify one point for First of all, once we talk about democracy, we need to define it what is democracy? Let us not talk about historically, what it what it means and where it came from, etc. Let us see how it is practiced. Now how people did it how people practice democracy now. Okay. Democracy is a tool that is used to select either the law or the leader to select the law or to select the leader, as simple as this. Even if we go back into history in the Greece philosophy, etc.
Yeah, it was developing evolving. Yeah, the monstrosity the rule of people in order the rule of the communists, yes, in order to give them rights after the
A the monarchy system. Yeah, to give them. Exactly. Yeah. To decide on their lands in the beginning, as you know, most of the concept of citizens. Okay, the customer comes from Yes. Because I think one of the important I'm sorry, chef, I mean, yeah, rejecting, I think, you know, it's like, if you if you take the word gay
30 years ago, you had a different meaning to what it means today. I think it's very important that people contextualize the distinction. So I think you know, the chef is absolutely spot on that we got to go with how people see and view and understand the process today, what historical kind of background because they will talk about historically philosophy clearly and you did not know the origin of it. Forget about all of this, what is it now? What is it now? Now it is democracy means the people get to choose regardless of God, no, no, no, no, no, no. It is a tool to choose either the leader or to choose the Lord knows, okay, okay. Yeah, as simple as this now, as a tool to choose
Islam came with this methodology a long time ago. And the methodology, the Islamic methodology of choosing a leader is more advanced than the the non Islamic methodology, which sometimes I say in maybe which might provoke some people, their Islamic democracy is more advanced and rigid and strong, okay, than the Western non Islamic democracy. Now, look, all the way from the beginning after the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam why it was not clear that the Prophet SAW Selim appointed Abu Bakr as you know, there are two views. Some people go for this view, some people go for the other view, there is no consensus. Why? Because there is a doubt, who selected Abu Bakr was it to
the Prophet sallallahu Sallam he said to believers, this is your Khalifa full stop. There is no indication that this happened. However, there is no evidence that this happened. However, there was an indication that the Prophet salallahu Alaihe Salam, he is pleased with Abu Bakr to be what the Khalifa, the caliphate of Muslims. So he gave those indications, but he did not neglect you know, the rights of people to choose who is going to govern them who is going to be their Khalifa. That's why in the Hadith that authentic hadith the Prophet sallallahu sallam said, Yeah, but Allahu wa rasuluh. While Moulmein on it, Allah Ababa means Allah and His messenger and believers they wanted
Abu Bakr okay. Even there is an indication that Omar
was accepted by the vast majority of Muslims, then after amount of non stop, the process was even more developed. And as you know, there were six people who were selected to be one of them was to be to be a leader. Then I also Abdurrahman
conducted, not general election for everyone but kind of election between the six people and then it's the candidates and they voted for who for a commandment of fan. In fact, there were narrations that Abdul Rahman would have conducted general election. Yes, he consulted all or most of the people in Medina same thing for Ali. In fact, the for rightly guided Khalifa is
that period is called what is called the Khilafah or Rasheeda, the Rightly Guided caliphs system. What is the difference between that and the period after that, which is the Romanian period the Romanian period called Malacca booked? Okay, monarchy. Yes. What is what is the difference? The difference is the Khalifa was elected by the people, the people, as you just heard what the sheriff said about call it democracy or democratic process to choose a leader. Now we don't choose we don't directly elect our leaders in this country, do we? We don't have the the you do in your dog.
What I mean by that is if you belong to a particular political party, then you would choose the leader of that party. So for example, Jeremy Corbyn is the leader of the Labour Party, which was chosen by the membership of the Labour Party and vice versa for other parties. But what we don't do is have a presidential system where actually the every citizen votes for a liking the case in America, for example. That's right. So the difference is like so for example, David Cameron was the leader in 2015 general election, David Cameron was the leader of the Conservative Party. The Conservative Party won the election he became prime minister, but then he resigned and
Teresa May took over the role and she was she wasn't elected. So when there was no election that took place for them, so that's the system share faith. And the argument I want to put to you is this. Yeah, in this country, we don't have an election for the leader directly. What we do is every constituency elects an MP. And the MP ostensibly what we know, what we're told is the MPs job is to legislate on our behalf in Parliament, right to vote on laws, and so on and so forth. And inevitably, in the vast majority of cases, that MP is going to not be Muslim, and they're not going to vote or tried to pass laws in accordance with, you know, Islam and Islamic principles and values.
And add to that all of these ideas that we hear, often,
you know, in employment,
like among Catholics, and so on and so forth. So people therefore, then say, it is censured Islamically to judge people to rule to rule people or to judge people's disputes or to legislate even by other than what Allah has revealed. second premise, when you vote for an MP, the argument is, you're voting for someone to do that on your behalf. So in the vast majority of the cases, our MPs are non Muslim, so how can we vote for a non Muslim to go into parliament and vote on laws and legislate on our behalf? Who is not going to do what Allah wants? Excellent. Okay, first of all, let us go in an academic way in a structured way, have we resolved the first part of the question most
Muslims will have an issue of simply selecting a leader you know, some people do have issue which means that which proves to me that they did not understand the whole principle of democracy or they have something or them, I call it democracy phobia. Seriously, democracy phobia, by the by the way, this is copyright, no one can claim that and then or copy that and claim it for this is copyright. Yeah. Which meant you should Yes, yes. Democrat seriously, whenever the word democracy, then they just stand up and their hairstyle is starting, you know, to be pulled out, because they remember all the philosophers and what you know. Exactly, yeah. While if you translate the word democracy, what
is it Dimas Rashida, rule of Commons or the role of people in Surah tissue Allah, Allah Allah Allah, Allah says we're amerihome
Shula Reina AMRAAM Shura. In fact, the clauses the translation to amerihome Shura is what democracy rule of people um Rohan means there will Shura discussion. They like to use the word Shura, okay, Shura is the Arabic term democracy is that an Arabic term? Okay. So, they say Well, there are differences essentially the differences between Shura and democracy of course, because democracy does not have one form, even shoulder does not have one form. Sometimes insurer, you will consult every single one someone sometimes insurer will consult to those who are above 18 Sometimes you consult 100 HollyWell, awkward, even adult HollyWell awkward, this is not revealed in Quran and
Sunnah. Yeah, in fact, it was used in the fourth era essentially and later. So, there are different forms of Shura, there are different forms of democracy, there is no one form it is a simple tool. So, this is we finish this discussion. Now, the let us move to the other part of the discussion which is quickly
choosing as you said an MP here who will legislate Okay, on your behalf and of obviously, he will not legislate according to Sharia, okay. See,
the whole system of this country is not an Islamic based system or shady AI based system. So, when I vote for an MP, I am voting within an MP within that system, I am not making the system to be an Islamic this is the point some people do not understand this, the system is already there, whether I participated or I did not participate the system is there it is not going to change. In fact, it is the opposite if the system were to be changed, yes, it will change after engagement not being away from the system okay. And then the system will change No, the system is already there. So, I am not giving power. Here. I am not giving power to anyone to legislate against Allah's laws. No, he
already have the power the system has given him or her the power. I am just selecting between two people within that system within that power.
All that has been granted to them constitutionally, okay, or by the system. Just just to illustrate that point. In the last general election, 15 million people, over 15 million people didn't vote. And the election was won by 11 million. So the people who did not participate also helped, you know, the party that got in to get into power. So there there is this this argument exactly what the chef says is that, whether you engage it or not is going to happen.
is, you know, this is very important that the question whether you participate or not, the system is there, we are not the one who put the system. In fact, if we want to change it, we need to be engaged. So let me summarize briefly, are you saying that, according to the eyes of Sharia, if you're not voting doesn't lead to the system disappearing or becoming Islamic? Right? Yes, ie, if you vote or you don't vote, the system is going to remain the same. Exactly. Yeah, no, no, well, the system is still going to have that initial aim that I involved, it is the opposite. If I vote, I may improve the system.
Yeah, it's a simple science, isn't it to change a matter, you have to there has to be an introduction of something else, it's not going to just change by itself. And so Muslims engaging in the system, okay, it gives an opportunity for you to a your view for you to get what you want. So then there's a classic case of the same sex marriage. You know, the kind of legislation that went through the Muslims kind of got engaged on it at the last moment, but it wasn't just the case that it was an issue for the Muslim community. There was a the Christian community, the Jewish community, there was other communities that had issue because it was a sensitive thing, and they will engage
them. So had we. And the other thing I have to say is we're very early stage in our engagement, you know, we're a very new community 5060 years here. So we haven't, you know, engaged in a coordinated and perhaps an organized way where change can happen, where you can see other lobbies where they have engaged and they have coordinated, and they do bring those changes. So I think just going back to the initial point, I think, like, personally,
I mean, I've been doing this for 30 years now, the people who used to say,
firstly, say, Khufu that you become curvier, all of that kind of stuff, they don't even say those things anymore, they now agree is a different difference of agreement.
That being the case, for say, for the last 1015 years, I totally agree with the shift that for us to now keep going back to this discussion actually helps those minority voices, we have to now mature as a community and say, there will always be some people who will disagree hamdulillah you're allowed to have your view, and you can do what you like with your view. But for us to engage with it is wasting our time. Okay, and I think we need to do is now move forward and discuss how that there are more important things to absolutely.
We engage, I want to pick you up on some of the issues of does voting actually work? Yeah, these are the questions. That is certainly part of the the questions that we've got coming in. However, we are getting questions coming in, just to clarify, because Muslims want to know what state of mind are they are they in? Yeah, when they actually cost the vote? Are they thinking this is something wrong, but I'm doing it as an exception or concession? What are you thinking? This is something there's no problem within the first place? Yeah, no, this is something that to start with, there is nothing wrong with it in the first place. Okay, nothing wrong, okay. It is something that is a neutral, how
ever okay, because of the major impact it has, and we will see some examples. Yeah. It turns to be either highly recommended or obligatory. Obligatory, yes. Right. So now with a difference of opinion and so forth mentioned? Yeah. What if somebody says, Look, on one hand, somebody is telling me, if you vote, this is contravening what can be marked under a law? Yes. Well, I mean, how can we learn in these major major, you know, sort of directed
beliefs when they ruled? Did they not nullify those verses?
No, did didn't they? I'm asking you a question because people quote versus just in the absence of those verses actually existing from time. Right. So when Abu Bakr RadiAllahu Omar or smile or Halle, when they were Khalifa, did they not nullify those verses? Because they were ruling.
They were ruling by Sharia.
Yes. So where there is
direct contradiction. So that's the point, isn't it? So in essence is fine. But where there is a direct contradiction, okay to the Sharia direct jurisdiction is the problem. The direction contradiction happens when, okay? People selected me as a leader, one. And then also, they, they, they gave me the power to change the constitution as much as I want. And then I said, No Sharia or Islam is not good for you, what is good for you is my law or another law. That is the problem however, even in the case of Erdogan, because I was heavily criticized, okay, about that, I said, brothers just have some apple, when they selected or the one they selected him to rule them,
according to the Constitution or according to what he wants.
According to the Constitution, which is a secular, which is a secular, so he can't just come and say it is a contract the OMA the Turkish people from one side, it is a contract, I am selling you this, you buy this, I give you this, etc, for so it is a contract, you work for me, you take this, you cannot just change the contract unilaterally. Okay, they selected or the gun to rule according to the Constitution, which is wrong. Alright. We think it's romantic. It's not an aroma. But I think the point the chef has made making, which is really important here is that look, you know, how Turkish politics was, you couldn't wear hijab, okay, in university and things like that. Islam was
kind of almost taken out of the system. And how did that happen? That was done through the colorism secularism was the concept, but it was done in a democratic way as well, to a certain extent, right. But what did the con do through the same democratic system is undone some of those things that were against the Sharia, that were an Islamic? And so it would have been someone would have said, Okay, are you can you are selected as a leader and then order one. Okay, the Turkish people according to the Constitution, or the one, this is how you should rule us then or the one has two choices? Yeah. Either he will say, Well, I will rule you according to the Constitution, and I will, again, change
the constitution based on the Constitution. Yeah. Because the Constitution allows you, as he did in the recent, okay. mandate or referendum?
Yes. Or he would say, No, this constitution is preferred, I'm not going to be engaged in this now, which would be the best solution.
The best solution, this is a very important example, because this is this is Yanni it is the same example that we are exercising now or Okay, experiencing now. Either he would say no, okay, then another person will come who is worse than him, he's, and he will make it even worse for Islam and Muslims, for not for Islam. And Muslims forget about Islam and Muslims. For people. We know the Turkish Lira before the AK Party came in, into power. Yes, the Turkish Lira is the dollar, I think was 100. And something Turkish Lira, and they were making jokes, in order to buy a patch of bread, you need to get this much amount of money in order to buy it. But he improved the situation, not
only for Muslims, for everyone, for those who like him for those who do not like him, etc. So if you as brother, as I said, this is a simple rule. If you want to change something to be better, if you want to then be involved, don't just come outside and just keep crying. But I was talking with my wife, just today about the you know, schools, the schools, and because we passed by a notice called then your site, so we discussed the issue of a notice school. Yeah. And I told her, how do we as Muslims, were living in this country as British citizens, we would have benefited from some of the previous systems that were there, like, what is known as the free independent school? Yeah. Where
the government will build the school for you, you just provide the land, they will provide everything and it will be according to your belief or according to your ethos, but because and this is my point about elections because we did not think of this country as our country. It is their country, you know,
from everything we don't feel at home, so don't feel everything we're doing is you know, if you don't have this
concept, right is if you think about it, economically, Muslims have not really done badly. They've done really Yes. Because if you go back to the home countries of every Muslim that came here, 4050 years ago, you will see the whole towns and cities were built by them from the money they sent over.
But had they invested that money here, like bought land and property and everything else, their situation would have been much better? Had they understood. They know the legal system, had they felt that no, this is my country, this is my country, then the schooling system would be better. Okay. Even even the other day I was when I went to that city. I actually I went to Sharpie, yeah, to give a hoot about there is one community that I said look in many Muslim areas, they are not clear. Why
why you go to non Muslim areas, they are tidy, clean, etc. Why the services are poor. There. Why? Because we I'm just living here, I'm waiting to go back to my home country. This is not my hometown, this mentality has to come to an end, otherwise, we will not progress. Okay. Sure. You made it clear, but your opinion about voting is essentially there's nothing wrong in the first place. But it might be
upgraded to Yes. Obligation obligatory event. Now we're getting a few questions here that are similar. And that is, having said that, do you believe it's possible or permissible for Muslims to join political parties or campaign for them? Yeah. Campaigning for them without a shadow of a doubt. Okay, joining them. Okay.
Internally, I believe that it is okay. That is not a problem. Okay. But I don't want to open the discussion now. Because it will open a can of worms. So please let us not discuss. That's for another day. Yes.
These are the some of the question. I think, I think, look, because the question is this question is to somebody will obviously say, Look, this party, labor, conservative, whatever, they have some good stuff, but they have a lot of bad stuff as well. Yeah. So if you're campaigning for them, are you endorsing the bad stuff? No, you are, you are not endorsing the bad stuff. So you know, like, whichever organization you join, every organization has things that you will agree with, and things that you don't agree with. There is no organization, whether it's Islamic, or that's like, yeah, so that's, that's number one. Number two, what we encourage people to do is make that assessment. Okay,
you've got a set of morals, you've got a set of beliefs and everything else, what you should do is go to the parties that are around you, and assess them make an assessment, it might turn out that actually, you know what, the Green Party is the best party for me, or it might be that actually, no, you KIPP is a good party for me, you know, or it might be the conservative, you know, it could be anything. But I think if if, if you're looking for an answer that all parties are okay and clean, and you can, and there are not going to be any controversial issues, then I think that's wrong. That does not exist in the whole world. Yeah, that's wrong. So you have to you have to approach it with
that pragmatism. So what does Cherie I say them? Yeah, as a as a trained jurist, as somebody who Sharia Sharia law says they try to minimize the evil and maximize the good, wherever you are. Okay? That's why even Taymiyah Rahim Allah Allah says, He said, There was a mistake to distinguish between what is evil and what is good, is it many people do that, but the wisdom, the wisdom is to distinguish between the two goods, which is better, and the two evils which is less evil. Yeah. So you go for that. Now, if the person joins, even this could have said, if you buy
a big supermarket that sells alcohol with the intention, yeah, to minimize alcohol, or to get rid of it or something like this, then that is permissible. And in some cases, that is actually recommend it because you are improving the situation. No one can say that, Oh, you bought that supermarket that sells alcohol and you will be supporting alcohol know,
precisely what maybe needs to western mind is somebody who, who's born and raised here who, especially from a science or engineering background, we think very precisely and very, maybe in a reductionist sense that look, alcohol is haram. Yeah, you're what you just explained is selling alcohol. Yeah, this is what somebody will say. Yeah, this is this is the micro thinking. And that's why I always encourage the brothers, especially the young brothers, not to have this micro thinking micro thinking will lead us will lead us to nowhere in fact, it will lead to so many problems we need to think at a macro level.
lead to isolation, which makes sense that your aim is to reduce the alcohol consumption, for example, but in that example, do we do so with the with the mentality? Do we enter the arena with the mentality that I'm doing this as an exception as a concession consumption? Not an exception? No. and of itself is totally permissible to do though, because I am not, as I said, distinguish between two cases, the system is there. And so the system is there with me or without me the system is there. In fact, with me, I might change it. This is one case, the other case is not there in the first place, their system is not and you're choosing exactly willingly, that should be the
difference. Okay. So that we should we should move
forward, I'm seeing to somebody that is going, okay, to some facts and figures, not, not just that, I think, just just to add on to that. One very important thing. The, the way some of us have a black and white binary view of the world is he exists mainly in young people because of the zeal and everything else. And, you know, we've all been young, and we've all had that. So there's nothing wrong with that. But the responsibility has to be on on the elders, the mature the llama, to encourage exactly what the chef says is that you got to come out of this binary thinking, this narrow micro thinking and look at the bigger picture. And the bigger picture is at the moment, how
is it possible that even a fourth generation Muslim, okay, a 1514 year old? I'll give you two examples. 14 year old I spoke to recently does not believe this is the country. Okay. And he is a fourth generation Muslim in this country. And he doesn't speak any language other than that language he doesn't enjoy anywhere other than myself. So where are you from originally? So he's from Asian subcontinent? So do you speak that language as an icon, speak that language. So I said, Does your father or mother speakers not they don't speak and my grandfather kept parents speaking. But I don't understand them when they speak. So he feels neither here nor there. So there's two two reasons for
this. One is the hostile atmosphere that is created. But that's to be honest, is one issue. And I wouldn't make that the majority issue. The majority issue is in the concept of their upbringing, the things that they're listening to the kind of Islam the way Islam is taught to them, and everything else is very is taught, some in some times is taught as of them and us. And I think this is really, really important. Until we sincerely start believing this country. The shirt is absolutely right. Our streets are going to be more dirty than the streets were non Muslims live. Because we don't care about it, because we're going somewhere somewhere else. Yeah. Right. Okay. So to summarize this,
this segment and move on to more questions, you believe, essentially, there's nothing wrong, per se, with voting in a secular democracy, if it's already there. And it's different. Sharia looks at things even though I might or somebody else might look at something as clear black and white, that look, you're voting for an MP, he's going to commit you to can he's going to do this and that shutting out however, looks at the the choices you have. Are you voting between two MPs, one of them's all already going to get in whatever happens.
That's one thing. And in that case, you're not responsible for the sins of the NP might do. Maybe you're responsible for the difference between them. And in another case, if you're voting to bring about a secular democracy, versus maybe a different, more Islamic system, right. I don't know, maybe a feudal aristocracy, whatever. Right, in Pakistan or somewhere else in the Muslim world? And that, then you'll be judged on? Well, you know, are you bringing about democracy and so forth? So you don't you don't agree with the argument that says, we as as the demos, we are empowering our governments, we are giving them a mandate to know that the powers are already there, the system is
already there. We are not okay. We are just selecting, you know, historically, the old voting I was looking at it the way I understood it with the old English, that voting as you said, is giving power, you know, giving power to someone this is how this is how,
you know, is a selection you select. It's not given power look is getting someone the way and also I think, you know, our political system is not the same as other other countries. So we have a party based system. Okay, so before you actually vote on Eighth of June, you will know where each party stands on all of
major issues, whether it's to do with the economy, whether it's to do with the health service, transport, whatever it is, each party will publish a manifesto that if you give us, if you give us the power to govern for the next four or five years, this is what we will deliver. Okay? So this is the vast that's the kind of contract you're entering. So you know what you're going to do. And then you choose and you think, okay, if these people come in, this is what they're going to do. They're going to sell off the health service for argument's sake, and these people come in, they're not going to sell it off. So what my kind of moral compass or my political outlook ype, you know, am I
someone who is happy to pay for the health service? Or do I actually want it to be a public service where, you know, maybe I can't afford it, which is, and then I will make a choice. And that's, that is all that happens. But what we fail to do, and this is really, really important, not the Muslim community, majority community is we forget that we, they are responsible to us. Do you see we're not responding? The people are not responsible to the politicians. Yeah. You know, is turned the opposite way. You know, I use help the chef doesn't mind the example I use. The kind of thing that I say is the tail is wagging the dog? Yeah. So you know, what, what's happened is now politicians,
what they do is they come to us and say, vote for me, I will do this for you. Whereas we should be the ones thinking, what do we want from these politics? And so that can only happen if you are organized from the beginning. And you start thinking, okay, me as the Muslim community, what we want, actually. Okay. And this is, this brings me on to the some of the questions around this topic. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just if I carry on, that's why, you know, for me, is enough the issue of voting only in the general election this snap election on Eighth of June? No, no, no. I said in the beginning, political participation. And I think, you know, the Muslim ummah, generally speaking,
neglected political participation on a macro level in all countries, except some very few people. And it is a fundamental mistake, and I'm writing about it. And wherever, see, wherever Muslims are given the choice to select their leader, they would select, generally speaking, the best leaders. Yeah. And even now, Indonesia, is flourishing. Because there is a real democracy there. There is a real transparency there. And people are selecting the mayor now in Jakarta. Okay. I haven't confirmed the news. But he is a young, talented, good Muslim brother after the ex ex mayor who insulted the Quran and who had some controversy around him. So whenever there is a transparent
system, where people have the power to select them, okay, they will select them. But I want to add one important point, I said that it is not voting on the it is political participation, this is important. Yeah. And what Brother has said, it is important because after we vote, the job is not done. Exactly. This is the problem, because we have this passive thinking, you know, politics is dirty, you know, the word they use, politics is dirty. Politics is and and many scholars, you know, many scholars say we need to enter this, this, this paradigm, this, this polarization that as color like me, you know, with this stove with this beer, he doesn't understand anything about politics. He
doesn't know what politics means. And, you know, like many Maulana say, yeah, and many scholars, many traditional modernas and they say, Listen, come to me, I can talk about Quran and Sunnah. But politics, you know, I don't know anything, you know, I don't know anything. And what does that mean? What he is proud of? First of all, this is secularism, because he bought he what? Divorce between Islam here as a comprehensive way of life and politics. Okay, this is one thing. So he made a bad deal and politics is something outside the day, this is one thing and the other thing is okay as your brother called Dr. Salman, but once he commented, and he said this Maulana he is proud of his
ignorance, he said, I am ignorant of politics. And not only that, he's proud of it. Yeah, we need to end this. We need to end with this. It is not spring jars. I think most people agree with you shake that we have to be involved. We have to actually you know, so after what I want you to say after the break
general election, we need to hold those MPs. If we are involved, this is my point we can come to if we are involved. I think that this is our country, we need the betterment for this society. After we elect we can hold every MP yes, no accountable for what he said, or what she said that they will do. Then there are so many other things that we can be involved in Russia. This is probably one of the biggest criticisms outside of the Islamic kind of 50 discussion leveled against. But you know, Masaryk like yourselves leaders saying they keep telling us to vote vote vote, but there's no strategy. There's no leadership, there's some kind of crisis a vacuum of leadership, who should we
vote for? What is our voice
as the unseeable accused person? I think voting is the beelden. And personally, I think that question itself is a fallacy. I don't think most people think that. I think what's happened is most people have been conditioned to think that, yeah, if you look at Muslims, okay, generally speaking, it's in the UK, generally, that they're, you're supposed to be as a Muslim, an independent thinker. Right? You know, you're supposed to be reading the Quran to understand it for yourself as well, not just blind following someone here and there. And what's happened is this concept of like, you know, we always need someone to tell us what to do is extended to such an nth degree, that now we can't
even make simple choices. Yes, this is all fine. And so I don't accept the question itself, in the way is presented, what I would say, which is important to do is how can we change that reality? Because it is a reality. Like, yesterday in Manchester, we have members of our working group, they were leafleting, a Hustings that we're holding in cotton. And every person that they met, ask them, Who should I vote for? Who should I vote for? This is the only question they wanted to ask. So we said, look, all the candidates are going to be at this meeting, yes, we're gonna put some questions to them, ask them what they're going to do. And then you can make a choice on who to vote for there
shouldn't be some kind of so
here's, here's, that's what I'm getting to. So you got to do this in a step by step way, because, for example, a organization like just just say, men, we are going to produce a manifesto. But what's to say we represent every single Muslim in this country? Who gives us that right? No one gives us that right? Okay, the Muslims haven't given us that, right. So this idea that we're going to always come up with just one list of things to do a one directional things to do is something that we we have to kind of not plan to do, because we will always get disappointed. And we will allow the naysayers to drive us backwards again. Instead, what we need to do is work on common purposes. So
the people that are active in society, so the check is already established. I hope I never have to talk about whether voting is okay or not, I'm never going to discuss that doesn't have us. Now we need to talk about how do we engage with the system? How do we actually discover what are the issues for us, so many has come along, which is something new, where it produces before every general election, a manifesto muffler manifest? Yeah, so instead of where people used to just vote, because, you know, this guy is a labor guy, or this lady's conservative lady or this is my uncle, or this is my cousin, whatever it is, we're we're trying to educate the community away from that to something
that is a little bit more objective, and based on deliverables, so that there is an accountability. Okay. So we the first one we did is in 2010. And then 2015. And if you look at so you have to look at the success, how does success come about? In our 2010 manifesto, we had quite a number of them agreed by the Tories as well as labour labour delivered some on those in 2015. Same thing, sorry, conservative deliver someone those and 2015, same thing. Labour agreed a lot more than the Tories and the Lib Dems. But obviously they didn't get into power. But the things that the Tories did agree, some of them they delivered on so we didn't get delivery on everything. Yeah, that this is
the wrong I don't want to paint the wrong picture is still a process. Yeah. But we are getting success. So you have your main example of what you did get. So it says I would say the single biggest success that we've had is to do deal with Islamophobia. For personally, me, I've been working in this challenging stuff for nearly since the Runnymede trust the this report that's coming up to 30 years or more. Wow, in 2006 to 2006 the Metropolitan Police was the only police force that recorded Islamophobia again, that was because myself and
A few other organizations here in London is attending that. Yeah, so we pressured but that was the only policemen's. So we need it. The problem was every time we went to government or any institution, we said Islamophobia was bad. So where's the data? What is your proof that Islamophobia is bad? So we didn't have that data. So we lobbied the government in 2015. The Conservatives also agreed that pledge that if they came into power, they will make it mandatory for all police forces to record Islamophobia. Alhamdulillah since last year, that's become mandatory is law. So that's that's that's a big success. This wasn't easy to bring about, but that's something that's happened.
Did that this is the argument people will give. Did that happen because of voting? Or did that happen? Because you were active vote other than so voting is? That's what I said. Voting is a misnomer. It's just one tiny add in the whole process of political cadent. Yeah, happened because we organized it happened because we research it happened because we went to the parties and said, We want this, that and the other. And then they agreed, and then that actual voting took place. But that didn't make it happen. Either. It happened because then after the voting, we contacted, you said you were going to do this. Yeah. When are you going to do? Yes, we wrote to them, we we got
other, you followed us to contact the MPs get other MPs to ask, we followed up and thus that's when it happened. So to reduce all of that activity to voting is actually very irresponsible. And the anyone in our community, that project pushes it that way, is a very irresponsible person. That's what I was saying. Sure. We just got a question. And when you because you mentioned the word democracy phobia, right. Somebody sent a quite an interesting question, saying that if you say something like this, it almost gives license to the government to label an opposition to democracy as extremism.
What do you say to democracy phobia? Democracy phobia? Yeah. Because as you know, like in terms of progress, recognition, okay, prevent definition,
states that opposition to fundamental vocal or active opposition to fundamental shared values of British values, includes democracy. And if you go against or you oppose democracy as value, then this is, you know, a sign of extremism.
And you you're saying that, you know, democracy phobia, and censoring those who oppose democracy as a value.
You know, some might interpret that, you know, what are you seeing, how are you suddenly because if we say that this is wrong, it doesn't mean the opposite is completely right. Okay. Let's not discuss that. Okay. But there's a brother, we might we'll, we'll ask him Yanni, if he's fasting today to break his fast Yanni and to drink maybe to take paracetamol to calm down, okay, or to drink maybe lemon juice or juice. And then he will, maybe he or she was yes, he or she, or Z? Yeah. Because now there is he or she or what the other one? I don't know.
Yeah, they Yeah. See, I want to say something about political participation. Okay. And, you know, voting. I have written an article, it was actually in Arabic is called Sadiq Khan, Brexit and Trump.
Yeah. Interesting title. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. What is the common thing between the three elections? Three selections? Ordinary unexpected? Exactly. They were what? against the mainstream or not solid enough that mainstream expectations or establishment or, you know,
okay, did they catch a trend? Yes. Okay. And Sadiq Khan in the beginning? No one expected that he will win. Even expected he was going to get the nomination from the labor. Exactly. You remember that? Okay. Yeah, we had a discussion about you remember, big is going to bring up so the connection Okay, so that is that is a case Brexit? You know, you remember Brexit, even my son? Yeah, in the university, which is which can be seen illegal the government did something that is illegal. They were pushing everyone to vote against Brexit. Even he said that some some teachers, okay. Received kind of indication that you need to push the students to vote against Briggs it they printed from
there or whatever budget, okay, leaflets against Brexit. And then what happened? We chose that there is a real democracy
because it was just a yes or no choice binary decision.
Okay. Okay, once we say real, okay, let us not go go for the binary thinking because binary things, I think there's a better example, which is a little bit more mainstream is if you look at Jeremy Corbyn as the example. Okay? And if you look at how he's bought all of the expectations of the establishment and everything that you would say is bad about the democratic process and everything else. So when he first got elected is shocked. The Labour Party, okay, even the people in the labor, I couldn't handle it, but the establishment and certain media outlets, they went to crucify Me.
For leather on it totally doesn't show that the system is against trying. But what happened? What happened then there was another election, and he increased his majority. Right, he won again. And then there was the snap election code, right at the beginning before that, oh, he's hopeless. You can't elect him. He can't do this. Can't do that. All of that kind of stuff. Yeah. So what happened latest opinion polls showing
that the labor normally caught up is actually going to hit London, the labor has taken the lead over in London. So understand that the point here is look, there. This is all part of politics. And that's probably why people say politics is dirty. Okay? Because it's about influencing, politics is about influencing, I'm going to try to influence you to behave in a certain way. Okay. What influences us, media influences us, money influences us, okay? These are things that influence us. So there are certain people who will do certain things to make us behave in a certain way. Otherwise, do you think majority of the people in this country are so rich that they can pay for
private health care? Other
than why for the last 10 to maybe almost 15 years? Has our health service been slowly privatized? openly? openly? Because most of us are believing are busy, have been influenced with other things? Yeah. So the major the big issue, we're not seeing good emigrants or whatever, whatever. Yeah, whatever. So we've got, we've and then as a community, we can't fall into that same thing. Exactly. So you brought up so not everyone is involved. Okay, as they should be involved? Had everyone be involved as they should be. See, the problem is those who have certain agendas, yeah, they become more active. And then they win.
Yeah, otherwise, for example, bricks, it okay. Do you think that the vast majority of people do really want to be okay, independent from from the UK? The establishment doesn't want that. You're the younger generation. Sorry, from EU Yeah, they are the younger generation. You remember when there was a big hoo ha, okay about it. They don't want this when there was a petition four plus million people signed within a few days, they want okay. So, but as brother as I said, you know, there are certain people who have the power they they use his power, it is out loud, it is not just that is you got to look, you know, if you want to and this is about participation. There are media
in this country is controlled by a handful of people who happen to be kind of all have a similar political leaning and outlook. Okay, you got to burst that bubble. Social media is a curse and a blessing. It's a curse for those. Yes, handful of individuals because it's a blessing. It's a blessing. Yeah. Now what happened is you can't control the information anymore, is proving very hard. Look how many times the mainstream media has been caught out, lying, deceiving and everything exactly how many times exactly, countless, your point. My point is, that you know, we have an alternative now to change our situation to change the way things are happening. The power rests with
us. Yes. And that is the whole point of democracy, that you as a citizen have the ultimate
say with everyone.
The system itself is against us. The system what is resisted, resisted this, I asked this question so sorry. What is the procedure? For example, we last time, one of the last time we spoke it was about London mayoral elections and Han. He surprised everyone in one, right. And now we have some brothers and sisters saying, Look, you told us to vote for Sadiq Khan. And I just saw him you know, shaking hands with some Israeli Minister and supporting Israel on doing a gay Iftar and doing this and doing that listing all the bad things that he's done, bad more things that
You disagree with this very important, someone, we have to get this right. Okay. It was when you say something's bad, you did not vote for an imam of the Masjid. You did not vote for a Calif, who is going to implement Sharia and lead you Islam from an Islamic perspective? You voted for a politician to govern your city? Yes. On political matters Exactly. We're not within a particular system. Yeah, he cannot change the system. So if he's shaking hands with this person or attending that thing, you that's us something you disagree with. But you can't say he's done something
wrong and bad and everything that you can't say that why? Because you didn't unless you voted for him to be an imam? Yes. Okay. As any mass Yes. If that person who said that to you ask that person did you vote him as an imam? For you for your deem? Is that why you voted him? If 10? Then you've got a prop. So in essence, you're saying don't compare him to Salahuddin or UB. compare him to why would you compare him to Saudi?
Arabia? What's he famous for? He's He's not famous for governance. What's he famous for? Okay, crusades. He's famous for warfare. Why are you comparing him to him? Or any colleague? Can you can you compare anyone today to small to Omar?
Can you? So let us let us let's so let's not make these kinds of fears. Let's go to the substantive issues. And I think, you know, I don't know how much time we've got left. But there are one or two things I do want to kind of before going to that I also see, I want to say to the Muslim community that not Muslim leaders in the UK, and I always Jonnie, talk about this proudly in front of other Muslims in other places, other European Muslims that we always go meet, discuss and coordinate our efforts, generally speaking, which is something that is highly recommended we want all Muslims to deal with we don't want every Muslim Yeah, to be individually individuals learning exactly decided
by himself, and then claim that he speaks for Muslims at some organizations do know, there is a mainstream Islam Al Hamdulillah Muslim to discuss things etc. But whether what Brother Azad was insisting on is that we should empower ourselves we should not really be spoon fed. Okay, children, okay. You know, in your candidate in your in your constituency, you have John and Mike. Vote, John. Yeah, don't vote might like this. No, no. Okay.
We will be issuing the Muslim manifesto different organizations actually are going to issue some guidelines, use those guidelines to know who would be the best
person or maybe this time, the best party for you. Okay, election for for for the coming election. This is what should be this is exactly how to move forward. And just just to give you an example. So what we do every, because we didn't think there was gonna be an election this year, like, three years, we, we slowly we're doing our research, but we have to obviously, fast track it very quickly. So we this year, we focused on, like, you know, similar to last election, but if I if you give me a chance, there's eight areas we thought are very important, not just to the Muslim community, but also to the wider community. The first one is about Islamophobia itself is a big issue in terms of
hate crime and everything else. And there's something that we have in our manifesto about that. The second thing is following up from our discovery in the census. And we also did a survey about employment discrimination in the workplace. We thought youth and education is a very important area, if you remember from the census 2011 48% of the popular Muslim population is 24. And under, yes, okay. And if you also look at statistics of prisons, and everything else, you'll see Muslims are hugely over represented in the prison system. Okay. In some places, I think it's in London, almost 21% but nationally, is around hovering around 11 12%. Okay, so it is a big issue. And then I
mentioned earlier about the workplace discrimination. In our survey, we found actually, people who are visibly recognized recognizable as Muslims, like they wear a hijab or niqab or have a beard or theists feel that their careers are stunted because of that choice that they make.
So, this is a very important area and also important areas also include things like minority rights, okay, we have to remember we live in us
A society where the minor or the rights of the minorities is what gives us protection. And this was one of the arguments about Brexit with the tie in to the European Union. So human rights in the Human Rights Act and everything else, this is all important. But you know, let's not forget the elephant in the room. What's the elephant in the room here since the year 2001, we've had counterterrorism legislation that disproportionately affected the Muslim community. Okay, so these are still issues that we need to deal with. I mean, prevent, we've mentioned nothing in passing, it's just one but you know, schedule seven, you know, the impact of that legislation, how much is
harassing people and everything else? How much is reducing people's liberties and rights, you know, this, this is very, very important. So, you know, these are just but also, we would also put in international affairs, because they are also important for godless Lim community here. So things like Palestine, things like Kashmir, and others, you know, these are very, very important subject. So this is a balance. Yeah, so it's a holistic kind of approach, where the benefits are not just for the Muslim community that benefits are for our society. So if you have a community that feels it belongs, it feels it can contribute, it will contribute far more than it already is. And we know as
a fact, the Muslim contribution to this country is huge. So you mentioned Islamophobia, youth education, unemployment, minority rights, counterterrorism, aggression, cohesion, and crime, international affairs, policing? Yeah. Are you saying that
participating in the this coming election, for example, will have any
tangible effects all these things, the plan, someone could just say that this guy will just do whatever they want, regardless of Oh, no, but we do you know, they will.
If you have the attitude, and they will, if you have that attitude, they will, if I if I say you know, someone, you will do whatever you want, and I never hold you to account, you will do whatever. Right. But if I if you know, I actually as I was gonna keep asking you a question. Yeah, it's gonna pull me up. Yeah, then you will be mindful that, you know, maybe so I think, you know, let's be honest about our approach. I said right at the beginning is very new for us. We've only done it a few times. And we have, we have to get better at it. But this this year, the other handicap is us is a snap election. So we've not had usually six months before the election where we open to the
parties and everything else. So this time, we haven't so we our manifesto, inshallah will be published. The isn't in LA on Monday is still late, but most of it is done and way behind the scenes, we've already sent it to the different parties for them to look at and agree. So we've got around 17 pledges that we put last night agreement, we're going to do it and if you're sorry, just if I finish the point. So if you remember last year, what we did is we sent all of our pledges to the parties, they came back and told us what they agreed to. And then we produced a leaflet. That said, this is what the conservative party agrees on. This is what labour agrees on is what Lib Dem
agrees on everything else. And then we said to the Muslims, here is the information. Now you make an informed choice. If I want you have to elevate our community to that responsibility of making a choice. One simple question.
Why should they care? Who the Muslims know the political parties? Because, um, how many Muslims are there? For example, do we even have Okay, all right, so you're talking about the Muslim vote? Okay. You know what, I have got some stats. And let me just read you some things. For example, there is a seat in constituencies called Galois. Right. It's held by the conservative by a majority of 27. Folks, okay. And the number of Muslims in that area buys what they want to buy only only 27 votes. I thought you will go north of Croydon handwritten handwritten 70 votes,
Elford, 210 Something votes L for which there are so that there are others and then you 27 vote majority when you have the Muslim populations about 1000. So I'm just a small example. But you can go to Darby north, right where the Muslim population is over 2000 And the majority there for the conservative is 41 only 2000 Yeah. In that constituency in Durban South there is more Muslims. Yeah. Okay. So you spy constituency. Yeah. So then if you but it works against labor as well.
Ealing and central act and rupa Huq you know her yeah, she only has a maturity of 274 which can be tough. So there are around so let me actually give you the list of the Muslim where can i Where can viewers find so Bradford so we will publish that so they inshallah look on our website and social media, bro
Oxford West. Okay, it has in terms of Muslim population
in the parliamentary seat has 65,000 of that 38,000 are Muslims. A staggering 58.8% are Muslim? Okay 58.8% nearly 60% of Bradford West voters are Muslims. So this is the highest This is the highest Yeah. Then you have Birmingham Hodge Hill, which is the next 53% It is Muslim in these areas do they have a say on the on the swing if more was
just under Muslim for
example, over 18 Yeah, no, no, no, he gave the example of Darby north. Just a bit how many how many
ones so, these are, let me give you names of 20 seeds. Okay.
That has a population Muslim population of more than 22% okay with the lowest starting with the lowest 22.5% Birmingham Perry bar, then Tottenham London 23%. Yeah. Then Brennan groups and Muslim Muslim. Wow. And then Brent Central 24% slough, 25% Leyton, and Wanstead 26%. Luton, South 27% Edmonton will flood and again 28% Walthamstow 29% You haven't got these from some far right website. just gotten Yeah, man just have gotten 30% Yeah, Leicester South 30%. Nearly 31% Yeah. Westham, 32% poplar and Limehouse just in Tower Hamlets 36%, Ilford South 37%. Let's say running it up. Blackburn 38%, Rockford, East 38%, Bethnal Green and bow 39%. Then you have Birmingham lady wood wood foot
constituency. 43 say 44% East Ham 46% Birmingham whole green again 47%. And then Birmingham, Hodge Hill, 53% and Birmingham, Bradford West, the highest being 58 point, basically 59% So this is how many these are 20 C 20s. in the country? Where the hour 200? Yeah, the percentage of the voters know the population of voters Yes, is over 22 Yes. Where they can definitely if they decided to vote in a particular way. Yeah, they can definitely win or lose of course, any candidate. So this is, you know, so there is such a thing as the Muslim vote it does exist. Yeah. The question is, will we be able to exercise it? Yes. That's it that is the question, let alone let alone Okay, let alone that,
you know, in many constituencies were that it was like, what is it called? Not safe seat. marginals. marginals. Okay, the difference is a few hundreds, if Muslims put their effort, then they could have a change what the balance, you know, so 20 is majority. Yes, this is the majority and let me just give you like five seats. marginals as you said, we're Muslims can definitely 100% decide who wins. Darby north. Okay. Ealing, Central and Acton, Croydon, Central, Brentford and Isleworth, Halifax. I've given you more. I'll give you a number one Ilford North berry north and I mentioned Galois earlier. So there are we've got a whole list of this based on last election and the sensors and
everything else. What the caveat to this is there's two caveats which very important one is how many people have registered to vote yes. Okay. And also, the second thing is, will they actually turn out an exercise that right because it falls in Ramadan?
These are two important caveats that as the community we have to factor in, so our effort is at the moment primarily because the closing date to register to vote is the 22nd of May is only about 11 days I think now, so it's not that fun. Where can somebody Yeah, if they just go to www.gov.uk forward slash register to vote and you can do it online the only thing you need Oh, got it. Yeah, it will have all of these details we should definitely have another thing but to the only thing you need to register online is your National Insurance number. Yes. Okay. If you but most most people if you voted in the last election, you should already be in your councils electoral register, unless
you unless you move, but it's good to always check. Yeah, this is just Yes. Yeah. Another question we have is what about if somebody is a student at University, that's usually they can vote they have a choice of at the university or the
address, and that has to be done. So if I if I if I live in London,
But my university is Newcastle, then I probably vote in Newcastle. But I have a choice. It's up to me. I can register in London, I can register. Okay, just a reminder. Sorry for the brothers and sisters and friends watching. Please tweet in any questions you have for the panel at Islam to in tune, see hashtag g 2017. And it will have all of the websites and details for you on the slumped One, two nc.com forward slash general election for where you can register to vote and maybe get some information on the statistics with regards to the Muslim votes share for us. I wanted how many seats we have in the parliament 650 seats, okay.
Which means 650 constituencies, okay, the Muslim population if we say that it is around between four and five millions, okay, the same for about 5% 5% between four and 5%. Okay. So
apart from this, because you see the statistics, a friend of mine, he said, the statistics is a good game. And it is it is it is really very empowering. And I remember we were doing a survey he said even the questions, you know, you can manipulate the questions you can manipulate all of this? Absolutely. If you know how to use these statistics, ya know, that facts and figures is really very important. You know, we have 20 seats, at least were Muslims is considered to be the majority because it is one community. Yeah. When community now we have how many Muslims we have in the parliament? Okay, we have at the moment 3030? Yeah, at least, you know, at least if we are
participating, you know, if we are participating actively, and by the way, not all those 13 have been selected? Because they represent us. No, no, no. Yes. It's very important that they don't, they're never selected because they represent the Muslims. Yes, they are selected because they represent their party. Exactly. And even some of them they are anti Muslim, as we all know, you know, so at least, and by the way, we should not be shy, you know, we should not be shy that. Yes, we want our representatives. So what's the point of democracy? If you say that? Well, no, see, I don't want to put my people know, well, what's the point I want to put my people this is the whole
point of democracy. So that brings me to one one question. So is my idea clear that at least we should have two one T Muslims who represent us? Yeah. Okay. Who take our voice to the parliament? At least a 20 You know, plus a plus. I know sometimes we feel shy that no, we are not talking about Muslims in the presenting us why not? This is Democracy. This is my country. Somebody asked somebody else and apart from the 20 because if there are so many seats that are swinging, yeah,
we can make a difference. So if we have five more seats, so we are talking about it 2025 Maybe 30 good Muslims, okay, by good Muslims. I mean, a strong Muslims who can, okay, represent us in the parliament, we need people to represent us in the parliament. So you're saying that your opinion is that it's Muslim? They should be Muslim MP is Muslim should stand for members of parliament? Yeah, Muslim should Wow, there's nothing wrong with that. And I think they just want to add on to Eve in this general election. There are more Muslim candidates standing as well. Yes. So there is a possibility to increase the number from 13 to maybe 18 to even double 20 Yeah. So I think
you know, I want the Muslims okay, you know, this idea maybe my I know your your mind.
They they should they should come strongly and say that Well, I am representing my community home. Do you want me to the present to pass what may be other communities want? What's the point? Okay, this Muslims, Muslims are part and parcel of the country. They're mosaic here. You okay, the wrong thing is you know, there's your voice to be heard two very important points here. One is Look,
before Sadiq Khan became the mayor of London. No Muslim would ever think that a Muslim can hold such a position. Yes. So he's broken a ceiling. Yeah. Forget about him as an individual for for for a moment from an Islamic perspective. Just look at him as a as a Muslim, visible Muslim. Yeah, it's like, you know, now it's not just in there if you go in arts, like you know,
Who's Who's the baking queen? In this country, some Muslim.
who's the now cooking Master Chef, who's one to cooking one master chef, again, another Muslim woman. Yeah. So you know, so all of these things, what they act as is breaking that thing and normalizing Muslims in society. Yeah. And this is important. So we should have Muslims should become MPs should become counselors, they should want to do all of these things, very important. But even more important than that, as a community, is we need to learn to engage in politics with objectives and deliverables. And something that is rational rather than emotional. Yes. Because if you recently across the country, emotional is emotion, local candidate come to the mosque, and everyone's
emotional, you know, it's like, you know, it's like that braderie system isn't right. It's emotional, right? You know, you're from my village or from my clan, you're from this, you're from that whatever. We've got to really move away from that into objective rational politics. And to be honest with you, I think, yeah, Muslims in the UK, in particular, compared to Muslims, elsewhere, I think they are doing very well.
So those people who who would raise the question, you know, what progress have we made? What changes have worked? Well, evidently, there has been a lot of changes, evidently, such as well, in terms of visible visible, breaking the glass ceiling that's happening. And in terms of actually policy, deliverables, that's happening as well. And you know, one thing you can't measure enough, is, you know, when, when you actually do you know, you're talking about the identifying the Eve from the two evils which one is the last one is when you stop the beggar evil coming in. Right, you know, what harm they would have brought. So you kind of are relieved when you bring in someone who brings in
less harm. But you know, we forget as humans very quickly, yeah. Right. Because we receive no harm. Yeah. Because we live in safe ways. Everything. What did you What did you do? What did you do about the fact that you were safe for the last five years? Whatever, exactly, is something? That's a good point. But share? Yeah, I see if, you know, back to order, because this is really a very good example of a Muslims have to really mature, some around, actually, that's a Muslim majority country, we are not talking about it, we are talking about the game. Okay, the political game or process. Okay, many people, I know that they were against him, because what did he do etcetera, etcetera.
When the failed attempt coup happened? I asked some of them, what did you do? You remember I called you on tonight? Yes, yes. Okay. I said, What did you do? They said, No, we all want to support him. I said, I thought that you are against him. They said, Actually, yes, we were against him, but when we thought thought about your point that we thought had he been replaced with someone else, what would have happened? This is how to think about it, okay. Not because you do not receive any hospital come from maturity, yes, this will come from and, and looking at the bigger picture and understanding how the dynamic of the society the dynamic of the contemporary world, you know, the
dynamic, the dynamic now is, you know, politics, engagement, you know, how to do things is more powerful, you know, more powerful than weapons. You know, many young people, unfortunately, think that unless you are, you know, you do things in a physical way, you will be failure of No, no, smart, soft, you know, intelligent engagement discussion. Now, in this world, in this climate in this climate variable is more dynamic, more more, you know, more influential. Yeah. Okay. And Al Hamdulillah, the Muslim community, I feel that the young generation, you know, is progressing towards that. Yeah, we have, we have some very good questions from the audience here. For example,
one brother is saying, What do you think of an independent Muslim running to be an MP rather than through the party system? Personally, because our country is based on party politics, independents are a very good idea. But having said that, so I personally don't agree with people running as independent. But having said that, sometimes in politics is important to
run as an independent or have an independent candidate run to perhaps remind a particular candidate in an area that you know you if you renege on your promises and everything else that you make, or you go against your constituents. This is what happens and a very good example would be in Bethnal Green
Bo, were the sitting MP with a huge majority who nicking a Labour MP. This is like a labour lifelong See, she voted for the Iraq War, even though the whole community wrote to her met with her and everything else, you still vote for the Iraq War. And then in the next election, they elected an independent MP just to DC to to teach that lesson. Yeah. So I think this is the this one was as a protest votes is fine. As one word wise sage once said, shooted the feet to keep them on their toes? Okay. Yes.
I didn't say that. Yeah, I hope everyone got
do you see in a party, so in our current system is better to work with the parties? Yeah. But anyway, this is not the discussion now. Let us focus on the coming general election. We want every single one, you know, to go and register. Okay, very important and see registration. All online? Yeah. On online, you don't need to put that much effort. I'd like to say something that is quite important before we end in Ramadan. It's true that we are doing a bad yeah, this is part of our data.
You know, voting voting yes. And Ramadan for the general the coming general election is part of our data, because you know, all our masajid are built or not built based on what politics based on politics, I agree. So, the our future idea is based on what
politics this caller said in order to go and pray in the masjid you have to walk walking, originally speaking is what permissible comes, but because this leads you to work to pray in the masjid, it becomes what obligatory. So, if political participation is the way for us to have more massages, to walk to the masjid, if really to have better educational system. In fact, for me, the key thing is better recognition for us as part and parcel as Muslims part of the landscape here, this is the key point, how part is how MPs perceive us? Do they perceive us as immigrants? Okay, though, they perceive us as second class citizens, do they want the elite or or, you know, to govern? And to run
everything? Do they restructure everything based on the elite, neglecting others, the NHS system, the educational system, everything based on, you know, this elite thinking and
how this is the key factor for me, this is my manifesto, who is giving that is pays for real? Participation, okay, for defining the future of Britain, is it limited to part to certain parts of people, they they belong to certain elite? Or do they really see Britain as a mosaic? Okay, as a fabric of all societies, all communities, and they give each community it's a space in defining what Britain is sure, as as that go? What do you say then to because some Muslims in particular are asking the question and saying, we feel from discussion about our rights and this and, you know, defending in this kind of position Islamophobia, getting scraps from the table, almost, it seems
sometimes that we have a maybe a position of weakness, or we're in a weak position, and we're trying to get as much you know, right. So don't you right, just to, to to conceptual issues here, obviously address this? Well, first is you got to address the conceptual issues here. The first is when you when people and I've heard this before, get scraps from the table, we're in a weak position. So you've already actually reduced yourself to actually being a weak person you internalize as an humbler that I've meeting more and more people like this I met this 20 year old Muslim who is now is a counselor in Scotland is one of the youngest Muslim counselors in this country. He's only 20 years
old. Really? Yeah only 20 years old recently elected around the May election
I as a Muslim I as an individual I don't feel inferior to someone who's not Muslim. My my rights are exactly the same as versus my power in exercising those rights is exactly the same as the other person's is not less is not more Yeah. According to the constitution you're right by right is like
exactly the same by law only thing that makes me achieve less than you is probably