18 Degrees Prayer Times – The Big Discussion
Channel: Haitham al-Haddad
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Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh and like to welcome you to a another episode of Islam 21 c dot coms deep discussion.
My name is monocyte and I'm going to bring up the topic today in sha Allah with our with our esteemed guest Dr. Chef Hasan had died from the stomach photo Council.
I first like to begin by welcoming you to welcome you all to this show. And, and this this, this beautiful, blessed and auspicious month of Ramadan. And we We ask Allah to accept all our deeds, and to forgive us of our sins, and make us take full benefit from this this blessed month of Ramadan Sharla. And today's show is going to be all about a quite divisive topic, something which becomes acutely
of acute concern to the people of the United Kingdom, and the and the and the European Northern European cities, mainly because the the times of budget become very, very early on, and I'd like to welcome our guest chef mahad salaam aleikum.
And, Chef, in today's time,
we have an issue that, sadly, we only talk about it during Ramadan, or just before Ramadan. And it's something which isn't obviously related to Ramadan is related to the whole year is about our budget we pray every day in the morning. And but the sad thing, I mean, not the sad thing more have more. The realistic thing is that people are more acutely concerned about the beginning of budget, because they have to begin their force, they have to stop eating and drinking this hard to stop having conjugal relationships with their spouses. Yeah. So the beginning of fudger becomes acutely acutely important for the Muslim woman.
before we go into the actual topic, of the differences of opinion that we see around the world, here in UK, in particular,
I'd like to go over one issue, which I think in many of our discussions I've had with people, and I've seen you have the students knowledge, not only general people, but students knowledge as long as you have a common question that seems to be arising now that Ramadan has come into the long summer months. Yeah, around the world is the issue of difficulty of hostage. Yeah. And and some of the reasonings and some of the decision making that's made in choosing timetables, yeah. has resulted in people searching this issue of hostage. So what is the scope in Islam? Yeah, in that if I'm finding, finding fasting extremely difficult, and the majority of people are finding fasting
extremely difficult, then isn't it more reasonable to choose a time in a period of difference opinion? Yeah. Which is a bit easier on the people so that they can at least fast without falling you
can now come to LA salatu salam ala rasulillah, does ecological
reward the brothers in Islam poignancy for this initiative? Yes, this is a very important topic, this is a very divisive topic, as you have said, and as you rightly said that it is very sad to discuss this topic and to keep discussing this topic, now and then during the month of Ramadan. But for me, why for me, the saddest thing is that we are discussing this issue,
while our suffering from
from real illnesses, and our own map is suffering now, the the cooperation of the enemies of the oma on our own. Just before I came, I saw some clips of people being slaughtered in Fallujah, in Iraq, by the military troops, whether from Russia or from other sects, or even from that era, I can government there, allegedly that they are fighting ISIS. It is very sad. And we don't want to neglect those people. Allah gelada put trust on the people of knowledge and took the covenant from the people of knowledge, to clarify the truth, to clarify the truth not regarding matters related to salah and cm and taharah. Yes, they are important but also to clarify things related to what is
happening to our oma and it is the responsibility of the leaders of the oma, then the scholars of the oma then the masters of Dharma to support our brothers and sisters, wherever they are, especially in Fallujah and Iraq now, and then Syria and other places. However, our topic today Islam is a very comprehensive way of life.
And being worried about what is happening to our brothers and sisters in Fallujah or in Iraq or other places, does not mean that we neglect other topics, especially something related to our event, the validity of our event.
And as we know that the Prophet sallallahu Sallam was killing the hell, but he was also worried about the sun or the future. And he did not miss the center of the solar definit, even when he was going for jihad. And he did, he really missed the missed family. So we need to be balanced in our viewpoint. Now, so you think that
the act of jihad is extreme. And yet they were still concerned with us praying their praise? Exactly. And and being concerned for Dharma doesn't mean that we should not be worried about our Salawat our fasting our a didac know, Islam looks after this. And Islam looks after this. In fact, our API that once we perfect our API that nothing from a technical perspective, but the from the relationship from the essence of the better, I can select a masala
if the bad leads, or if they're a four hour event that leads us to the taqwa that Allah, Allah wanted it behind the vida, then our amount will be definitely the situation of our Omar will improve, it will not be fixed, because we need other conditions as well. But it will help to fix towards fixing the situation of our own. Now, let us go back to the discussion of the office episode, which is the start of the fast the start of the fast and the federal Fund and the controversy that is taking place about federal tightening. Now, as you rightly said that many people in the north things fear
hemisphere, certainly in the Northern Hemisphere, they claim that the soldier is so early, which makes the day that we must fast is quite long, and it leads to help identify Shopkins and hence, we need to take the lenient opinion.
Generally speaking, we can agree on this. But if we scrutinize this statement, we will find that it has so many flaws. First of all, Howard shopkart, for some people who have our origin just for those who don't. You have difficulty, difficulty and hardship.
Difficulty and hardship is very subjective. Now for those who may be for some people, 12 hours is average, and matcha is difficulty and hardship. Those who were here we are living in the US, there are many new Muslims.
We know and maybe you will remember some of the men who said that we dealt with Yes, who were unable to leave the drugs. And for them to abandon drugs for 12 hours. This is an extreme holiday. Just apologize to the viewers. I mean, there is a buzzing noise. I don't think they're trying to fix that. But if you can bear with us in Sharla, you can also follow this discussion on hashtag, the big discussion or hashtag 18 degrees or install fluency.com please do follow that in Sharla but bear with us as they fix this noise. But inshallah I'm sure we can follow the discussion anyhow. Yeah. So, I was saying that the difficulty and paradigma shopkart is very subjective for some people 12
hours is machaca for other people, 14 hours for other people 16 hours 18 hours. Now, if we go down that line, what are we going to say to our brothers and sisters who fast in Norway, it happened I experienced this myself last year I have to fast one of the days of chawan in Norway last year or the year before one of those years and
mother Yes, mother was attempt 47
even if we say that we are prejudiced as to something to
you we are talking about 11 o'clock. We are talking about modeling that is taking place at 11 o'clock. And that is taking place at 230. Okay, which is three and a half hours, which is extremely difficult. That's the brother who lives in Iceland, in Iceland. Now in in certain areas.
Isn't there a different ruling joke for the people who live in the polar regions that Yeah, we can we will come to them. But my point is
see the Arctic starts at 6666 degrees, I think latitude whatever
Did you the logic of 66. Now going towards just reference as for people here in London, the last year is 51 is 51. Yesterday, if we vote, imagine we vote up north towards the architecture. The day is becoming solid, and then it is becoming too short. But there is a night. So, for the people who live just below like the city of Bordeaux, yeah, in Norway, yeah. They're fighters. On Sunday, there is maybe two hours.
And their day, they can see the sun rising, and the sun setting is almost 22 hours or 21 hours. So what are we going to say to those people?
So the point is, we let us not use halogen mashapaug to invent a new opinion. And then to claim that this opinion is a valid opinion. And to adopt that opinion, I think, to be honest with you, brother, Mahmoud, before I leave this point, how did you mind shut up? For me it is, like an emotional blackmailing in order to force a certain opinion over the others. Okay, so, brothers and sisters, regarding this issue,
the chef's talk, we have number of questions with regards to this. And we've had a number of people actually asked me about this topic, on difficulty for the people, some people you including your Ramadan, at the beginning, and so forth. Now.
What I'd like to do first to do is check out the the Twitter feed, the hashtag, the 18 degrees, send us more questions as you want. inshallah, as long as on this specific topic. I know, there are some people asking other questions.
But specifically, if you've got questions regarding marriage difficulty machaca, then please do send those questions through inshallah.
But just to summarize quickly, why chef was saying is that, that the difficulty is almost being used by different sides of the argument, or those who want to use an easier more linear time as a reasoning for
for adopting their timetable, as opposed to using it from using the issue of hydrogen masaka. From a from an Islamic perspective, where it genuinely is a problem, and, and so forth. But as you said, doesn't it differ between different people? And exactly is it also similar to the to the, to the example given about, say, for example, someone is starving and having poor? Yes. Okay, can we have a better one? So from time from day to day, we change? Yes. So this has come to that technical discussion about the issue of halogen machine. Now, if we say that there is a halogen mashup, we need to look first of all, whether the start of federal, yeah, is fixed, or it has or there are
valid opinions regarding the beginning of federal, and then we can choose one of those opinions. Yeah, if there are valid opinions regarding the start of ledger with a start at this time or that time, then we can look at the issue of the heritage and masakadza difficulty, but if there is a fixed time for the beginning of the year, then we cannot use halogen machaca today reduce the timing, yes,
they actually gave us a solution for those who find it who find it extremely difficult to fast such as the pregnant woman, the L person, the musafir.
And so, on
the show he gave us a solution that they should not shorten the hours of fasting you know, they break the fast it is allowed for them, if there is an extreme difficulty, or they will become ill or they are afraid that this fast thing will harm them or harm their children and then shady I said you can break your fast and make it up later. shady I never said reduce the time of fasting. So instead of fasting it wants you to a 20 hours and you are obliged 20 hours. No It will be enough for you to fast 16 hours. Imagine the the ill person who is suffering from diabetes. Yeah, none of us got I said okay, well for them, they come first four hours and then they can have the the unseen or their
medication. No, they said they break their fast because either you are fasting or you are not fasting it is not in between. Yes, it is not like reduction of the sun.
I think personally for myself, this is the the almost the scary notion in this in this topic in that we're using the issue of hydrogen and ion and some of the machines which actually decided on this timetable. Yeah, I've spoken
to some of the leaders Yeah. And they actually cite this issue. And as you mentioned, from different person to person that changes and, and you're giving a general allowance to people to go eat and drink to go to their wives, sometimes two hours after, yeah, other people are saying all the time, which is so this, this, this discussion has so many problems. First of all, as I as I said earlier, I never said you can minimize the time, the the the time of fasting. Also shadia has said, as you rightly said, It differs from one person to another person from one day to another day. So, you cannot just give an opening check for everyone to do it whenever they whenever they want. Now, see
the discussion is the discussion, because I'm sure some of the people who are watching they say no, no, no, we are not saying this. Well, I'm not saying reducing. Let me just clarify for the people. I mean, the reason why I personally wanted to start off with issue of heritage, and the I mean, traditionally, you probably think that the best thing to start this discussion would be with the how do we observe budget? How do we start budget? What is the shutter sign for budget and so forth. And then let's go from there. The reason why I wanted to bring up the issue of emotions, because if we can take this out of the discussion from the very beginning, then we can move on to the technical,
extra. So as you said, we move on to the let's let's move on to the topic of how do we actually calculate how do you observe? Yes. So just just just before that, I'd like to mention that some people might say, well, we have a variety of valid opinions regarding the beginning of February. So if there is a variety of valid opinions, then the profits on the lobbyists and then let us follow the method of the photos, and I'm the manager of the protest, to go for the easiest opinion and knowledge of the law. Say that the province ahlawat is and I'm with us the easiest opinion when he has an option. Okay, as far as it is not it. Now, see? Yes, even the key point here, what makes an
opinion a valid opinion? Because now, there are people who say, in northern hemisphere, we should calculate for just a few minutes before sunrise. Yes, they say that
we need just to calculate maybe half an hour for our breakfast, etc, etc. And surely, they say we should start federal, we should continue our cycle until half an hour before sunrise. And in fact, some people calculate the treasure and I saw that myself here in London, they calculated the time of failure by the time of sunrise, and they say maybe we can leave just 10 minutes to pray further only because we need to pray fudger before sunrise, Now, can we say that those opinions are valid opinions.
So this is the issue. What does a valid opinion mean? What makes an opinion a valid opinion? Now?
Let us go to the technical issue regarding the start of budget. See, I mean, all it's not something I mean, a lot of people complain. The normal person Yeah, average person said that. You have this debate in 18 degrees, 15 degrees, and all these different angles. Yeah. And guess what you respect I don't understand what these depressions are the sun and the angles and it changing from here and there. It's a very, very complicated issue. Isn't it being so simple that this the average person can go out and see let us let us let us say stop that is a valid argument. Allah Allah Allah says, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah de manera do eat and drink until the one to finish or failure is
distinguished from Dan black and it offered okay. And we know that how he's won the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said, kudos
to him, and to him was the color for the adult at the time of the Prophet Solomon, along with VLAN VLAN used to make the first as an opening to use to make the second attempt and an image to him he was a blind person and people used to tell him that the fragile is seen out also the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam said
there are two types there is the wrong failure or the target can be fatal and there is the silver solder. The solder solder is seen on the horizon. Okay, now we can list all the IDs and the if that talk clearly that confirmed it can be elite, that the time is for failure, which is the time to begin the fast. Yeah. Is to load a song
Through so appears on the horizon.
All of the scholars agree on this. Yes, generally speaking, generally speaking, because some people might say, well, there might be some flexibility, we can deal with them. But let us deal with it one by one now.
Because the the the early scholars, the scholars, or at the LA Times, people used to go outside and look at the factors. So, there was no,
there was no pollution with light pollution, or other types of pollution that might hinder people from seeing cider. Because it is not only about light pollution, but there is the air pollution in
the atmosphere that changes the fraction of the sun. Yes, I mean, some people actually say that I've heard one, one colleague of mine, actually post Thomas Edison in the introduction, the light bulb, yes. And then our as human beings, our
inability of looking after this kind of that we've been given, we polluted the sky so much that it's now almost the last 100 150 years, it's very difficult to see some of these Exactly. And in fact, some some people have said that our eyes, I don't know, whether you refer to this or not, our eyes are unable to see the many astronomical, natural or created science, yes, as people in the past used to see them because of the pollution that we are exposed to. So they say same thing.
This brings up a question. I mean, I know some people who said Look, I can go do my own observation and they go to the back garden here in central London, and they do an observation and they will look to be honest, I couldn't see it. But clearly it became this time where as I know, certainly that people who do much more scientific observations Yeah, and certainly Councillor sense scholars and astronomers to go out and do observations they go quite far out the cities nowadays Yes, in order to make sure is top dog Yes, they can Exactly. So it is not as simple as this to just to go outside and to look at it Okay. Now,
see, other signs can be seen for example, some sets of lights can be seen, but not always. Because sometimes you might not see it because of pollution because of because of clouds and because of other reasons. Now in this case, what to do. See it is the rationale for marginata he knows that this will happen. That's why Allah Allah Allah says after the solid communications University Navy, Warhol and faded in
this color said from this idea that there is a is established yet at a certain time, in a certain time for door Yes. And so on. That is established after the salata lady looky Yes, when the when the sun when the sun moves, they do locations when the sun moves, but my point is the ISS are going to select any dukey the ayah did not say establish the salah when you will see the Duke
Yeah, just the I did not say how can the Salah establish the salah when you see the sun moving? However, with the moon sighting issue, yeah, the prophets of Allah is and themselves what Sumo little Yachty Nakuru?
Yes, like the eye of Mahabharata Salah, so there is a difference between milliliters salah and Moon sides. So just to clarify for everyone else, what chef is mentioning is that,
as we all know, a very, very famous famous discussion and as you have publicly been this Ramadan as well, we have different massages starting Ramadan differently. Yes, yeah. And some say you need to actually see the observation here. And something odd follow the calculations. Yeah. And then they use the same argument with the same thing with the prayer times and say that you need to be able to observe the observation of pleasure, and you can't go through angles and these calculations, yes. Whereas you're just making the point that no, there is a distinct difference from a from a surety perspective, the language has been used but a lost continent is messenger, yet that one which
directs the astronomical sign yet or the astronomico movement, yeah, which dictates when we start that particular activity about that, yeah. And then from the other activity rather, which is not to do with what is strongly done, but rather what you see today. Exactly, exactly. Now, this and by the way, this is a matter of agreement between all the scholars and in fact, it is the common sense. Why? Because, because
if I know that logo or budget, it starts at this particular time, in first of June. Yes, it was calculated
To be like this last year, then first of June this year, I can use the calculation that was made last year.
Yeah, as simple as this. I don't need to say that No, I will not pray for God until I see it myself or I will not pray God until I see it myself or it will not print out until I see the sun setting myself know according to calculation sunsets at this time, then I am obliged to act accordingly. However, if we say according to calculation, the moon should appear at this particular time, even if calculation confirmed, supposedly, yes, I cannot rely on this because the Prophet sallallahu Sallam said, so when you see it? I don't really want to divert it, okay, because that is the topic altogether. And the reason why you bought it exactly the difference between both, okay, now bearing
this in mind, and having all what we have mentioned, okay, in mind, now we need to look ourselves.
What shall we do with the future stopped? What should we do when, especially in countries like here in UK, where predominantly most of the year is cloudy? Yeah, you couldn't even do the observation, etc. But again, I'm just talking about a methodological point of view. Okay, from a methodological point of view, How to Look at this mess and how to look at this issue. Me, you and other people how to look at it.
See, instead of doing the research from,
from scratch, from square one, all of us bring the Iet and Heidi and try to understand them. And then we try to apply that understanding. Yes, the three steps we need to see within this must enter this issue has been discussed by previous callers or not, because Salah is not obliged on us now. Salah have been obliged on Muslims 1400 plus years ago, and as we know, I mean, the Solo is the one that is the most important Exactly, and the most the fleet of the last 1400 years wouldn't have taken it so lightly that except they would left left this whole discussion in the year 2000. And as the same thing with fasting. So we need to look at the previous systems. What did they say about the
application of the meaning of that Howdy, we do not differ on the meanings of the Hadith, but we are talking about the applications of the meanings of the Hadith. We see that when the scholars from the fourth century, especially from the fourth century and mainly from the fifth century, Albania, among others, they noticed that it is difficult to what to for everyone to see the federal
Yes, sir has sided, they found that it is difficult because more buildings and people now they are not like the people who weren't before there, there is some civilization. Okay. So they said that we noticed and we observed that a sobia sided alpha just yeah, it starts when the sun is 18 degrees below the horizon.
There are many scholars as far as or as early as it has an Al biruni and others. In fact, there was another scholar who calculated that
degree as the degree for the appearance of wedges in the by the end of the fourth century 380 something. Yeah. And there are a number of scholars who calculated the same degree in the fifth century and beone and has no no Haytham and others. And all Muslim astronomers and all Muslims, Muslim scholars agree to that degree all over the Islamic history until very recently, I have not seen myself and I challenge anyone. Yeah, or leave the word challenge. If anyone disagrees, let him bring
it a degree or a way of calculating the future. Yes, other than what I am mentioning.
What I am saying is that all the early scholars are starting the fourth century, all the way until very recently. All of them agreed that the fragile it starts with the sun is a clean degrees below the horizon which is called 18 degrees.
Okay, so sure, there is no other code associated just to quickly summarize and bring on some questions actually, that some people have asked regarding this.
You've said that circa 18 degrees or 18 degrees itself, it's been a standard that has been adopted for the majority or a huge portion of the Islamic civilization of our heritage. Until today. Yes, yeah. And and
I have not seen any degree who disagrees. Any scholar who disagrees with that. In fact, let me be more precise. Some scholars mentioned the 19 degrees and 20 degrees, which is what, earlier than 80 degrees? See the problem here is Yeah, so we pulled out it No, no, my point is, even if we say that there is a scholar who mentioned 17.5 degrees, you know, scholar mentioned 15 degrees at 12 degrees or another method. Other than that, that is my point. So it says we're in recent times, except in very recent times. So my point is, if all these scholars, Muslim scholars from different schools of thoughts, including astronomers already calculated it like this, yes, it is like consensus forget
about consensus, but they have unanimously agreed on it. Yes, it certainly brings to light I mean, those who want to adopt a new angle, new opinion that they have the they need to or people who are because to be honest, so people can understand that the timetables that are being adopted in UK predominantly, today are the much much much later times Yes. of 12 degrees. Yes. So you're literally what we're saying is that people are adopting and using this timetable are going almost a gay or going against the weight of Islamic history. Exactly. 1000s and 1000s and 1000s. Exactly. Not only that, not only that, okay, but all men, councils all over the world. I get hit on this. Regarding
the state councils. You mentioned the council. I mean,
the other day when I was discussing one of the Imams he said that look, the majority of UK follow this timetable. Now why should we follow this? You're giving me these four or five fig councils, the Muslim world need the Islamic Council in North America, the Egyptians, the Deobandi in, in eastern India and so forth. you're quoting all of these fake counselors, but they're not here in UK? Yeah. Okay. We'll come one by one, one by one. Let us first agree, let us first acknowledge that Muslims, okay, as you said, throughout today's economic history, and all major councils confirmed that the budget should be calculated according to 18 degrees of depression. Okay, some depression. Yes. Let
us confirm if there is anyone who disagrees with this, they can bring it. And again, I'm not talking about someone bringing their ideal because all of us we agree on the statements of the province of violence I love all of us we are getting on the I are going to salata digital agency and and
all of us we agree on this. But we agree we disagree on the application of the meanings of those on reality. Okay, so I want someone to bring a clearly, and I think that that
is different from this. Yeah, I think that's very important to have this in the discussion that people understand a mom's understand people who are going to do observations themselves personally, myself, when I went to do my own observations that what we observe? Yeah, we might come up with different results. Yeah. And some of us might come around 16 degrees, 17 degrees, and so forth. Yeah. And as I said, there are some people at the open ledger project and so far they've come out with 12 degrees. Yeah, yeah. Which has been adopted.
When we do those observations, we need to take consideration almost human humble ourselves that why are we getting different exact from 1000s and 1000s? of observations? Is there something wrong deficient? Is there something different? I mean, that's another topic I want to bring on later on is, does the angles so forth? Are these changes, we'll come to that. But you brought a very important point. One of the brothers told me, Chef albani, he was misquoted and it is different from what is adopted here, Chef, so on, so forth, and so on. So I said so can you count them? He counted a few of them six, seven. So I said, we have seven scholars who said this? Yeah. This could be in
degrees. Whatever. Yeah. So who disagreed with 18 degrees. So I said to him, so yeah, it is difficult for you to imagine that these seven scholars made a mistake. But it is easy for you to imagine that hundreds of scholars
Maybe throw out Islamic history not just recently so ology ceramic history made a mistake. So that is the point, one of the things I'd like to ask you to do, I want you to do I mean, I've been asked by somebody once e.com to help host this, this discussion. But if you do go to their website, you will find many articles on this on this topic, and some of them actually detail what the different angles that the different fit councils around the world have adopted. I mean, and and all of them are adopted 18.
Adopted 19, Miami. Well, that was something one thing has quoted awfully and incorrectly, is that the Islamic Council of
Islamic counseling in North America? Yeah, it's not adopted 15 degrees. Yes. But just to clarify that that is clarified in some of the articles that in 2011, September, they changed their opinion to adopt 17.5 to exact so the point being is giving way high here half a degree of razor, the scope of the discussion has always been around 18 years hasn't actually been come any further than down that there have been, as you said, a number of scholars, a handful of scholars, you count on your, on your on your right hand, who have disagree, the 18th was off in Saudi Arabia, and they said 15 degrees is closest to the truth. Yeah, for them. And as you said, I think rightly, it makes sense
logically that to discount everyone's observations, for a handful of people, we really need to make that, be wary about that and take responsibility of making those who make the decision timetables, the Hang on, I'm actually taking a very, very, very, very minority and yet, especially the athlete, especially, especially now, this is a message to the Muslim, the the committees of the massage. Yeah, that's why I issued my title previously, a few years ago that even if the committee of the masjid, for whatever reason, believe in another degree other than 18 degrees, they are obliged to tell people that the vast majority of Muslim scholars go for 18 degrees. I am really very surprised
of the attitude of many massage committees that they are taking the matter lightly. It is related to the evaluation of people, myself, when I started to discuss this issue, many people say to me, just either Why don't you go, we can go for observation. I said to them, No, I will not go for observation. Why do I need to go for observation. And you see all these councils. And all these colors, unanimously agreed upon a certain degree. I don't want to go because I don't want to doubt all of these. I want to humble myself. Okay. And in Islamic jurisprudence, no one can say no, no, no, I want to dig from scratch. I want to start the discussion from scratch. What are the you know,
yeah, you wipe the slate clean and think you know what, I understand astronomy better than before. And I like the image in this at this point. And I want to ignore all this has come. I mean, I think people will agree with me. Yeah, as well. And I'm sure most of you understand, understand that most of us don't know much. What's going up above our heads. Yes. Yeah. We don't know what stars This is. That's a start. I mean, a lot of people saying to me, Look, I can see a star in the middle of the day. Yes. That's not a star. That's a planet. Yeah. Or that is, I mean, the irony was that two days ago, the beginning of Ramadan, and on my local Masjid in Leytonstone,
there was a group of uncles, they were looking out in the sky to see for the new moon. Yes. And, and I was looking for to come into play with and I was standing there looking at it, and they were looking attentively to see if they could see the new moon, Josie and they were happy. They were accepting Ramadan, it started here. And they wanted to see for themselves. I don't have to stop them. I said, Sorry, I'm Cooper, the moon is not in that direction. It's in the other direction there. But not to put people down. It's just that new reality today. Most of us don't know what's going on above us. Yeah. So and back in the A century ago, people didn't have GPS units, they didn't
have these things, they had to know how to direct themselves at night with the stars. So naturally, the people before us and scholars before us, we came from from a more nomadic lifestyle, yes, had a better understanding of human follicle of, of Australia. And by the way, what you mentioned is quite important, because this provides an answer for this argument is the failure to start or the beginning of a project. Is it as difficult as this is it impossible to witness? Is it like that? And we say no, no, it is not difficult, but because of the life is tied because of our maybe our weaknesses, we are unable to witness it as you can. As you mentioned. Yeah. And on top of that, as
we mentioned before, and I was going to talk about at the end of this discussion was the introduction of light pollution of aerosols and other pollutants in the sky. Just a horizon being filled with with buildings, yeah, so forth. It does become this day and age, very difficult to actually see that
Horizon if we can move the discussion a bit further forward. Okay. So, let us let us confirm, let us confirm that the conclusion that 18 degrees is the degree for calculating future time, the beginning of what Yes, it's the angle which the majority of the oma over history has adopted. budget as all I can say, maybe you are being more diplomatic and saying the majority I can confirm it is the matter that all the agreed upon. Yeah. It is only recently where some scholars disagreed with this only recently. And that's why this annoys me. And this hurts me. Those scholars who started this discussion, yes, we had enough as an oma we have so many disagreements, we have a lot of freaking
out we have so many sects and groups, etc, etc. I'm really wondering why those colors? Yeah, unwisely started the discussion on a monitor that the oma has been established over the agreed on. Yes. And that's why we are suffering from the fitna that they started. And that's why you see from a material methodological perspective, if the person follows the main stream of the Yeah, the main stream of views of the Ummah, then these fit and that we see disagreements, etc. and weakness of dogma, he wouldn't. I mean, I don't want to go too much more on this point, I want to move on to the rest of the question. But
it's this exact same point that the some of these the moms are using these things? Look, it's not because you brought this up this issue or because Ramadan is now in the summer is really difficult. And we're scared for our people, and so forth, even though I've heard that being said by some of the moms, but there are they're saying that none of them. You're talking about the general and most almost warning here in UK, the majority of most now have adopted this timetable, which has at the very least one fifth Council, European Council Shekar. Davi for example, who said that 12 degrees is fine. Yeah. So why can we why can they not follow this opinion? Yeah, good. First of all, if we, if
we talk about the vast majority, and those brothers or those amounts, accepted the vast majority, then we tell them why do you accept that the vast majority of Britain rather than the vast majority of the whole oma?
Yeah, this is the question, what the shadow a reason gives you that, that we need to follow the vast majority of scholars in Britain, which is Yanni, I can tell you a political country that was formed recently. I mean, if I can add a advocate here,
what I would argue to that is that London is in a very, or UK in particular is in a very unique location, and its location is further north than Toronto and Canada is further north than Moscow than Beijing. In China. It's one of the most northern with a large population of Muslims Okay, residing here. So, is there a possibility that
the times that being adopted do change for our people here? See, we need to, there are two things can we say that the HTML of the Londoners' is a valid HTML, this is one thing or the HTML of that of British Muslims is a valid age map, this is one thing. The other thing is can we say that the date the degree varies from one place to another place? These are two things. Now, the first point which is the HTML of the London of the Muslim Londoners or British Muslims, is it a valid HTML to say that we need to follow that and neglect that HTML of that entire Ummah? This is nonsense. Yeah, this is laughable. No one can say well, because most of the Muslims in the UK they adopted this degree we
need to adopt to this degree but this is different from the moon sighting the moon sighting because the prophets of Allah said and said fast when you all fast, fast when you all fast, that is a different issue. But in terms of prayer timing, no, we cannot say that. Muslims in the UK, they adopted this. So we need to adopt this. This is one thing first of all. The second point is not all Muslims in the UK or most of them adopted this. Look. Some people adopted the center massages in London. They adopted 244 Yeah.
Yesterday 240 for some other massage, they adopted three something. Some other massage, they adopted 220 Yeah, yeah.
Yes. And there are a there is a large portion of the massage the number of massage, they adopted the 18 degrees. In fact, including Marcus jewsbury, which is
The hidden beer bunker and exactly in fact, there are many of us are south of London, they adopted a kidneys. I remember asking Jeffery to help last maybe two years ago, he said when we were young, yeah, we weren't fasting during summer. We were fasting early during summer. Wonderful in the early hours, and he said we used to prefer to
go to bank. Yes. And then go to school directly. Yeah. That was adopted him widely in the you know, in fact, it is still adopted here widely, not in London, but in other in other places. So you can't say that, while the vast majority of Muslims in the UK they are fasting according to this know that they have different degrees and they have different let us let me just go. So, let me go to the issue of the counts are certainly the European Council for factor should be one. Yeah. Now,
I wanted the brothers who are See, I have not seen. I have not seen I sat with many people because I've been discussing this issue. Most of the brothers who are discussing this, they are discussing it from an emotional perspective, not from a scientific perspective, nor from a methodological perspective. Now the 12 degree, yeah, which was adopted by the European Council for federal Chicago. What did they do?
They appointed chef Mohammed in Hawaii or Dr. Mohammed in Hawaii to discuss to research and to do a study on this Mashallah Mohammed Al Rahim Allah He died recently a few months ago. Yep. Rahim Allah. He was a member of the Council as well. The Council of McAfee.
Muhammad Ali Rahim Allah What did he do? And his his study is published in the in the in the Journal of the European Council, for fatwa, I think it is in the sixth or seventh volume.
in there, he said, All Muslim scholars agree that the timing for federal should be calculated on 18 degrees. And same thing is the timing for Asia, he confirmed himself. Then, by the end of that research, what did he do? He said,
but in northern hemisphere, 18 degrees, makes the Sham a science disturbed, the Federal sign disappeared, and a shutdown disappears as well. But he said according to 18 degrees, the failure sign is cleared. And the sign is skinny for the rest of the year, for the rest of the year, and the during the summertime. So he said, so if we adopted one degrees for the rest of the year, then they show a sign won't be clear. So why not to adopt? So he made he have now okay. And by the way, he is Natasha is color. He is specialized in I think in mathematics or something like this. Yeah. Or engineer is Natasha.
But he made the show he is there. He said, because the show a sign appears. Yeah, throughout the year, if we calculate the time according to 12 degrees. So let us adopt the 12 degrees, not only for the period of difficulty the whole year, but for the whole year. Yeah. And then he said, Well, this makes it easier for people etcetera, etcetera. The Council, the European Council for fatwa, unfortunately, they liked this conclusion. And they said well, as it is a valid opinion, I don't know how they concluded that this is a valid opinion, then we need to grab on it. And Sharia is based on is as we need to make that Salah easy that Eva and the first thing is people so they
concluded it was degrees and they are the only that comes in is the only Council in the world that adopted a 12 decrease. And I mean, this brings up a number of questions regarding people to asking you to comment on this open budget project and so forth as well. But I think you already to be honest you without mentioning them by name. we've highlighted this topic. So for the viewers to know that well. Schiff has mentioned I've mentioned quite clearly is that to adopt these new research projects and these new attempts to wipe the slate clean and and go into their own personal observations and come up with different times
to either confirm the previous times we'll make up their own new times. If these organization these, these these obviously I mean I'm sure they are well intentioned projects
can at least understand that
fact that they've gone against the the, the wealth of the his waiters 1000s of years of research, yes, that they're solitary positions that they've come to. Yeah, they really take that into contrast. And even if they were to put it out and put their view across, they really should tell people, by the way, our opinion is very, very different from what the way to Islamic history Exactly. This is see this is this is really very ironic. And it shows that people are not following a proper methodology in understanding and implementing Islam, how a person comes up with an opinion or a group of people, they come up with an opinion. And they believe in that opinion. And they make
that opinion as the correct opinion. And they just neglect their opinion or the opinions of the entire person. And they want people to adopt their opinion. And they promote their opinion as the truth. The only truth. Yeah, and that's one thing, if you'd provinces if you can go back to the Islamic 21 c.com website, you'll actually see some of the tables there, which tell you what angles, the different councils in the real world have adopted and all of them are circa 18 degrees. And and just to move now on to just quickly because we're running out of time, I wanted to highlight the issue of garden unified prayer time, time, time time tables, and
in previous years in the last episode is a recent issue with the time kids have been changing, or the descriptor discussion of over 18 degrees has become an issue. Even that discussion, say with a shaker, Bernie rahimullah. She could run in Saudi Arabia and a few other mashgiach around the world who have said that we think it's a bit too early. That's closer to the federal cabinet. It's probably it's more around 15 degrees. Yeah. So in my own personal discussions with many of the moms who have adopted unified prayer time to ban some students of knowledge, they were under the assumption that they were following at least a scholar that they believe they trusted implicitly, of
15 degrees. So they assume that the unified prayer timetable is 15 degrees. Yeah, I think it's it's really true the case. I mean, for those who don't know, today, if you are following the 15 degree opinion, yeah. The time for fauja in here in London, would be 136. Yes, yes. But the time that actually in unified private prayer time, there was 244 a year. And if we use the calculations and backtrack, we actually find the holy unified prayer timetables, as you mentioned, from the European Council is not based on 15. It's based on 12, which is so far out of the scope of the discussion. Yes. That it's It borders almost absurdity. Yes. And it is not a valid opinion. Not even now. Now,
even as the majority of people in the UK are following it, that is, has no justification by falling such it's such a strange minority. Exactly. And it is not that it is not the majority of Muslims in the UK, as we said, following it, and it is not a valid opinion at all. So what do we say? I mean, I mean, I don't want to put people in it. put people on the spot. But when the head of the deal burns, I mean, I remember a chef mentioned that chef took the money mentioned that when he consulted the boss, I asked him myself, by the way, this is a misconception. Some people say that the owner of Pakistan adopted 15 degrees, the council for I don't remember exactly now that the name of the
council in Pakistan, they adopted 18 degrees. I asked chair, move the debate was mainly myself. I said to him, what do the scholars in Pakistan follow? He said, 18 degrees. I said to him, what do you believe you? Sure. He said I follow 18 degrees as well. And, and and the aroma from do abandon selves they would adopt with all the 1000s of millions and hundreds of 1000s around the world for at In fact, in fact, to me, it is an interesting point. As far as I know, I know. Either I can confirm, or I can confirm that I can confirm that. The vast majority of the Muslim world, our country, official time tables, adopt 18 degrees. I can confirm that it is the majority. If there is another
candidate that disagrees with that. I don't know of any country. I mean, some people have quit as some massage it I think of I know one or two ministers in London, who follow this photo Saudi Arabia's a position that that issue is 90 minutes after Madrid, and virgin is 90 minutes before sunrise.
Oh, yeah, that is not true. That might clarify this. Okay. First of all, so they all omocha let us talk technically omokoroa timetable. They adopted the 90 minutes not as a start for Asia artist, as
The Salah for Asian, none of us gonna say that if a lady, for example wants to pray before 90 minutes. Yeah, when the time the actual time for Asia, it starts her Salah is invalid because she did not follow the omokoroa calendar. Yes, this is one thing. Now with regards to failures on color calendar did not fix 90 minutes. Yes. I mean, I myself personally last year when I checked this up myself, the nine year and the 90 minutes, even the 90 minutes because Saudi Arabia is in a unique position in the equatorial region in the Tropic of Cancer area. It's time to change my strategy. Now 90 minutes actually equivalent to effectively 18 units. You mean for Asia? Yes, for sure. even
further. Yeah. I mean, the the time that they have yes follows 18 Yeah, but not strictly 90 minutes. Yes. But for fighters, they did not fix it on 90 minutes at all. Not only that, sometimes it is at it, you can check it it is available online. Sometimes it is 80 minutes, all the way until I think 90 something but at the end of the day.
The variation misconception is that woman kura automechanika actually follows at No.
It does follow 18 degrees. But there is a difference between omokoroa and arrabida. Yes. omokoroa fixed 19 minutes for a short time. Yes. rabita. They did not fix the 90 minutes.
Otherwise, both of them follow 18 degrees. In fact, all as I said all councils except from the European Council adopted 18 degrees. I want to say one more thing about you know, as you mentioned the issue of maca. You know, some people say we need to follow maca in terms of the beginning of the future. Yeah. And we say no. That is not right. Why to follow maca. Each country has its own
has its own astronomical science. So the time for example, in the south eastern hemisphere,
people fast maybe 10 hours. Yeah.
Here on the northern hemisphere, we fast longer hours. in Makkah, the timing is different. Hence, okay. The start to further for Mecca. It is for Mecca. Not for us here to follow? No, it should be followed by the people in the south hemisphere. And one more point. They Some people say well, the norm between the norm of the time between failure and sunrise is one hour and maybe 30 minutes by 90 minutes. We say what is this norm? Where is this norm? Maybe this norm is in Makkah, but not here. Because here, the length of the day is quite long is the total for you to understand.
In the equatorial region, the differences between the different degrees 18 to 15. is a matter of about four minutes. Exactly. But over here it is maybe 1520 minutes. 20 minutes. Yeah. So yeah. But as you go further and further, exactly those things much gets much wider. So for the layperson, like most of us here, we don't answer that mean, simply put, the difference in time between father and daughter
in the Middle East is much shorter than here in UK. Exactly. Because the just the day gets much longer. Yeah.
Let's just move
on. So can I just summarize quickly? Yeah, we only got about 10 more minutes left. So let's clarify a couple of things as we come down on the issue. So we started off with issue of harsh difficulty. And we said this this this isn't part of the discussion. Yeah. And we shouldn't kind of use this as a tool to put my perspective as the best opinion, because it's very subjective is very different position. And I think most students knowledge actually, when they come to this issue, they try to steer away from this discussion. Yes, because they know it's opening a huge can of worms. Yeah. But unfortunate some of the massages, they use this as an answer straight away. And I think that's
something we need to take away from the discussion we don't want to
the second thing we went over is guarding
Machado observations or using these angles, I think we made it quite clear that this angle is based on the observation. So it's not a global motion, rather than a group of people doing. And that's the third point I wanted to cover was that we can summarize that.
What we're trying to say here is that you can do your own observations, but if your own observations or your groups of observation are going against the vast majority, if not the absolute agema consensus of the rest
So this Omar from from the beginning of Islamic history, yeah, that we need to take that into account at any time on Hebrew, I've got this observation, the sign that I'm actually coming to see is wrong, because personally, I've gone to see myself. And I've seen it around, I think around 17. But maybe there was a bit of a cloud there I'm thinking is maybe looking at if another person is going on same things. And I clearly think it's 12 and a half I invalid away, there is a group of scholars who went somewhere up north. Yeah. And they found it to be between 17 and 18. Yeah, a couple of us went to Whitby, for example, with the Bay in London, outside the Shahada, you cannot
say that this wish I had is the correct one. Okay. Why? Because there are people who make Shahada and confirm and only other people the absolute suit complete the way to the number of people doing Yes. It has to be taken into perspective and coming to the side almost beside this thing. Yeah.
And then the fourth thing to clarify that the mistaken the confusion that some emails and some students in orange believe the unified prayer timetable is adopting 15 degrees. Yes, yeah. When in fact is they're conflating it with the issue? Because it's actually 12 degrees? Yeah. Yeah. And I think I when I mentioned that to some people, and some people understand that they take a step back, because they now realize that this time is far away from the actual time, which scores of different ones. So it could be practically speaking for the average person I don't know about all the times, we're talking about between at the moment, this present time between 18 degrees or because you can't
see 18 degrees. But yeah, between the people who adopted the 18 degree opinion, and and the actual shining example. 15 degrees, there's difference of a half an hour. Yes. And by the fact, by the 21st. of June, the longest day of the year. Yeah. Yeah. The time for 15 degrees in London goes all the way back to 1:08am. Yeah, so it's very similar now to the 18 degree position. Because of the of the HD has taken when the short time disappears. Yeah. Which we'll come to now to talk about this topic. So in fact, I would like to, I would like to mention one point here. Many people who believe in 18 degrees, they use the non scientific methods in calculating 18 degrees. And I have to say, I
don't like to mention names, but you know, Islamic, find that many people go and take the prime time from Islamic finder, and they say that it adults 18 degrees, and I checked it myself is learning finder, for many companies in many places, for many countries, or many places. Many times it is not accurate.
I mean, I mean, that's I think the problem with people using their mobile phones and the apps that are the answer for I mean, there are a number of actual astronomical resources that people can use. Yes, yeah. One very, very,
very basic one, which people could use is go to the HMA. Almanac, observation societies, the government project, and they've actually got prayer times there, you can actually work out what 80 or 50 Executive is, from there is there there is the now some brothers, they have introduced a very good website. It's market.com. Yes. Very good website. Yeah, this website maki.com. So the brothers maybe can post out the website details. It was a it's been put together by a number of scholars who have been looking at the project, but brother is one is one of the key PVS design the site, it is a bit technical, it is pretending when you suddenly open up, it's not your standard timetable. There's
all the different angles you can put in and so forth. But you
someone who has a bit of know how in your community, you could actually look at that, and put your exact coordinates of your Masjid there. And you can work out what 18 degrees what 15 degrees is, and 18 degrees. Yeah. Yeah, you can work out to show what the differences are. Yeah, but
But obviously, going back to the discussion, 18 degrees being the standard, okay, being used. I
don't compromise that as the standard that they actually and by the way, they are Westerners, so no one can say it. Well, they are living somewhere that they don't know. Yeah. I want to mention another point, which is very important during persistent Twilight. Yes. What shall we do? So just, in fact, can start the topic before we go into this issue.
It's a much more technical discussion as well. I want to leave this right at the end. Yeah. Yeah, we wanted to first go over the issue of what the Omaha's united upon z and how they come to that, you know, you're in that position to moving on to this issue very briefly, which is much more technical. as we get further north up in northern hemisphere.
The sun before sunrise, before before everyone comes above the horizon, comes from way down and it comes up, up, up up up on the horizon at sunrise. Yeah, but
if we take 18 degrees, yes, as the position of which
The angle of the Sun here is where we because when the sun is stupid on the horizon, there's light coming up. Yes, of course the horizon is shooting up from the sky. Yes, yeah. And that's what we get the the title of the white thread, period.
But the problem for UK and some northern hemisphere countries here is that the sun during the long summer periods, sometimes never goes below 18. Yes, yes. So therefore, what happens is, and I'm sure if anyone forget in the city, yeah, because you have too much light pollution by yourself today. Just today even go out out of London, to a dark area, maybe down to the south end, and look out and see you see a red tinge in the whole sky the whole night. So the hot Yeah. And that red, because that indicates that the sky never goes totally black. Exactly. Yeah. And the fact that light doesn't go totally black means that the sun hasn't actually gone further down 18 which would make the
situation totally blind. So this is period, which is called and it happens for differing lengths of time as far as further north as you go. Last in the UK for around a month and a half, two months. Yeah. Yeah. It's called persistent Twilight. So now the sun show that you sign the actual visible sign for budget doesn't appear. And now there is another discussion of how do we now calculate in this period? The time for fun, yes, by By the way, this
this period, sorry, this area is also from latitude of 18. So the from 4833 latitude. Now, during this period, as you have explained, the sun does not go to five meters, Okay, no problem quickly, the sun doesn't go below
more than 18 degrees below the horizon,
which means that the Twilight of the sun is always there above the horizon. It can be seen now
the sun, the Earth is moving.
Yeah, but we say metaphorically that the sun is moving. Yeah, but that it is the earth that is moving. Now, when the earth is moving the sun
before the sun, after mothership is moving away from west towards east,
okay. And then it comes in from the east.
So the Twilight of the sun can be divided into two Twilight's the Twilight from memory,
to the middle of the solar, to the to the middle of the sword of night. And then the sun starts to appear from the east. So actually, the appearance of from this, the appearance of the Sun of the Twilight of the sun, from the east is actually the failure. That's why the federal should be calculated by the middle of the solar night is the beginning of the Federal I mean, I'm sure
this is explained there is if you Google, there is a YouTube clip. By buy brother patterns, it is actually in the market. Yeah, there is a reference for it in the market.com. And that clip, it is like nine minutes clip explains this point that I mean, we only got a minute left here. Let me let me
finish it for you, for you for being with us today, in short, and going over this topic. So just to clarify very quickly, that
this, I'm sure that last part and proposify went over most people's heads. But if you want more details on it, then go to machi.com there's a link to a YouTube video they explained those details, or if somebody wants the.com. And they have all the discussions that you can put your points there, and you can see the information clarified there. But
at this point, and for that period, I will require the scholars have actually decided for those important 18 degrees, which is the majority vote in these climates and this person, Twilight period and so forth, the Muslim World League and others have come across and they've actually given putao on how we can prefer during this time. Yeah. So we can go back to those those opinions and so forth. As I said, the timetables, you can find them on something on c.com for London is around one o'clock now at the moment one today, I think I believe,
which is vastly different from 245. So my I implore people watching this, and so forth, if you have any doubt in the timetable that you are following, yeah. Then number one for yourself personally.
States deal with caution. And number two, please push your committees, your massages and so forth, and ask them why are we following this time when the weight of Islamic history seems to be going against us in Sharla? Yeah, we can all go to our observations. But again, if it goes against the weight of history, then is this really what we should be doing in Sharla
No this this this discussion is coming comes only during Ramadan and I hope it isn't just Ramadan it's something about the whole a lot of people who fast Yeah, the whole year and and and this discussion. I hope it doesn't come back on in 33 years time when it comes back again. But the next couple of years will be going through the same problem I implore our massages and so forth that please let's get away from the emotion discussion of hydrogen. So if you want to go and worship God, that's a completely different discussion. Sit down and have your discussions and our gods but let's let's come together at least and unify on a time which the rest of what is unified on in sha Allah.
Lastly, maybe we can have another episode to discuss this issue of persistence. Yeah, if you have more questions, please do send them through. inshallah, what we'll do is we'll collate them I've been getting lots of questions already, from the software on see passing him forward. But we've got hopefully answered most of these questions. There were some in me questions regarding is it sinful to foil the other time and these kinds of things so forth inshallah. Hopefully, in another episode, we'll go over those issues, and we'll answer this question, Sean.