#081 – IlmFeed Podcast w Naima B. Robert – Show Up In Life, Masculine Energy, Imperfect Ramadans

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Fatima Barkatulla

Channel: Fatima Barkatulla

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Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala rasulillah the brothers and sisters are Salam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. And welcome to this m fi podcast episode. Today I have with me my good friend and mentor,

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author of from my sister's lips and now new book show up. It's Nyima be Robert

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allamani comm, Naima why they come sell Mr. amatola. Here better catch Oh,

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yeah. So now you have your new book? Do you have it with you? Can you show us? Yes, here it is. Show up a motivational message for Muslim women. Mashallah, I read the book recently. And

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I was crying as I was reading it. Because Do you remember last time we met, last time we met on l feed,

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you very powerfully shared the story of your husband's passing, and everything that you had to deal with, right in the aftermath of that. And a lot of our listeners and viewers really, you know, gave us a lot of feedback and said that they found your story so inspiring. So it's great that you've taken the story, and, you know, really built a lot of powerful messages around it in this book, and I just wanted to ask you,

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like, one of the key messages of the book?

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Or is that test site inevitable? Right? Yeah. And,

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and yet you get to decide your story. And I loved that I loved that message of the book that, you know, test sign evitable, you're going to be knocked over, right? By all sorts of things throughout life.

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But don't be the victim of your story. Don't allow your story to be a tragedy.

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You can turn things around and you can be the hero of your story. Can you tell us like for somebody who's listening who's thinking, Oh, that just sounds, you know, impossible for me. You don't understand my situation, you know, I understand what I'm going through. You know, I had terrible parents, I had a terrible childhood. And I've grown up and I've just found myself in terrible situations, etc, etc. Somebody who might be living that tragedy, right, or victim story at the moment?

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What would your message be to them? You know, and

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through this book,

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well, does that color faded, you know, that victim hero. narrative is, is is a really, really powerful one. Because one of the things I talk about in the book is being aware of the stories we tell ourselves about our lives. Right. And I, you know, I put a very powerful example of telling the story of Khadija, the Allahu on her and his shadow, the Allahu anhu, as victims stories, no embellishments to the plot, if you like, you know, I say the facts as they are, you know, widow twice, married a man younger than her have money, you know, and hardship upon hardship upon hardship, and then she died. And of course, people do. Click that, oh, she's talking about fatigue,

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God laquanda. But we never think of deja vu, Allahu anhu. In those terms, even though that was an aspect of her life, we think of her as a hero because we frame her story as a hero story. And everyone has the ability to do that in sha Allah, with their own lives, because this is, you know, one of the things that I really wanted people to take away from the book is, you know, an understanding of the power of our own perception, and how our perception of our circumstances can actually change our experience of those circumstances.

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For example, are a woman who has been trying to have a baby or she's she's married, and maybe even trying to have a baby and you know, nothing's happening. There are several stories she could tell herself about that situation. If she wants to be a victim and see herself as a victim, then that's easily done. You know, what's wrong with me? How come everybody else is so easy for everyone you know, is Allah punishing me, you know, and allowing that herself to wear that as like a victim cloak, whereas somebody else will reframe this and I actually believe this is the Islamic way of dealing with trials. Allah once good for me. Allah has something better plan for me. Allah wants me

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to focus on something else right now and hamdulillah I get to do this still. I get to do

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I get to love on my nephews and nieces. You know, Justin, like, while you're in space, you might as well frame it as something that is good for you than something that is is bad, that is painful, that is a punishment, etc, because it will change your experience of that particular thing. Same for any other trial or tragedy, any kind of loss, because if you lost something, then it follows that you had something to lose in the first place. And even that is a reason to fall for gratitude for, for for feeling blessed for feeling like you have experienced Baraka. And for me,

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this life is hard enough as it is, it really, really is, there is so much outside of our control, that at least at the very least, let's take control of the way that we see things and our mindset, so that we can at least have that kind of comfort and that safe space inside our own heads. You know, to fortify ourselves when the tests come because the tests are definitely coming. And the whole way through. I'm talking about establishing this, this this safe place in your mind as an act of worship. Because Allah subhanaw taala wants good for us. And our last panel, Allah wants us to learn and to grow and to become the best version of ourselves. That's why we have these tests, to be

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purified to be educated to have the way illuminated for us. It's allowed me good in everything. So again, it goes back to this tawakkol that we have in our last plan that alone what's good for me at the end of the day, and that's something that I hold on firm to and that is what gives me my stickiness. That is what gives me my peace of mind. That is what allows me to stay firmly rooted when the storm comes, if that makes sense.

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Does that click here? And absolutely. I mean, I love the way you highlighted Ibiza and Aisha, because you're right, like, we tend, when we're talking about the Muslims of the past, especially the Sahaba their generation, we tend to valorize them and you know, talk about them as if everything was just plain sailing. And you know, these are just little facts, but we don't like she was a widow or she never had children or we don't actually think about that, you know? Oh,

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did that feel? We experienced that? Exactly. Right. And when we kind of raised them to kind of superhuman level. And so that's why we we almost act as though that wasn't a struggle for them. Right.

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Exactly. And with with actual of the land Hmm, one of the things that I was reflecting on that I don't think anyone really talks about is

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that she at the age of 18 became a widow.

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And then she never got married again.

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Now, nobody talks about that.

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Because, obviously, because she's our mother, and you know, she's the mother of the believers, and we want to, like, show her respect. But that in itself is a difficult thing, you know, like that we really don't, I think give her credit for you know, a team that's like the peak of your youth. Right? So panela

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No, children. Yeah. So Pamela. And so so again, you know, this is this is the whole kind of DSA, the focus of the book is

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your life, whatever Allah planned for you, that is your life. And that's what you've got. Right?

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And, you know, that's what she did. We've actually done her, she began to focus on her nephews and nieces. She began to take in orphans. And start teaching them she's, she realized that she could still be a mother, right? She could still be a mother in other ways. And she, you know, used her talent had such an immense impact as a result, right? So, as I click on this, I mean, like, because I know that, you know, Mashallah, you're working, you know, you've been doing research into this space. And I think, you know, this understanding that, you know, this life that you have in this dunya is the only one that's available to you, meaning, there is not an alternate reality somewhere

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where you made a different decision, and you have another line vailable somewhere, you know, like an eye to the future.

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Sliding doors. If

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it doesn't exist, what you have is what you've got to work with. So, you might as well own it, you might as well engage with it, you might as well be present and live it to its full with that tower call and that that sense of purpose that we're encouraging as believers and many of us, we check out of

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Our lives, if it doesn't look the way we wanted it to look, the marriage, the children, the job, whatever it is, we check out and we get up, we go on autopilot, and we just check boxes and do our duty. But really, we're not feeling it, our heart's not in it, our minds are not present. We're constantly numbing ourselves. And this is a reality for many, many people. This, I want people to snap out of, because you're wasting your life. By doing that. You're wasting your life, and your potential. And all these put you know that the possibilities of connection that you are have that you're missing, with your partner, with your children, with parents, with friends, with sisters with

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whatever, all of that is passing you by while you're on autopilot and numbing yourself. So wake up, this is the only chance you have in this dunya you might as well make the most of it. So that really showing up. That's what it's all about it is show up and be present in your life and make the most of it. Because there's more than enough there to keep you going and Sharla

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does that kind of fair. And yeah, one of the quotes in the book that I love is because you were created for a noble lofty purpose with unique capabilities and potential so wasting your life hiding behind the mask of excuses and fears, just won't cut it. I think it really connected

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self development with Allah, you know, in this book, Mashallah, which I, which I really love.

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One of the things you talked about that I found really interesting was

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becoming a CEO and owning it.

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You said, there was a point when you had to take over your husband's business. And you'd been running this magazine. And, you know, you realized that you hadn't been allowing yourself to think of yourself as a businesswoman.

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And you realize you needed to own that. Yeah, before you could show up, I guess.

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Like, what was the actual in real terms? What was the shift that took place when you own that? It was mad? Because I think, you know, I became this, okay, let's, let's put some context. You know, we can say I ran sisters magazine for 10 years, but I didn't really write for 10 years. You know, I was obviously I found it, I started it off, I was heavily involved for the first few years. And then I had other editors on board, I had people taking care of the business side. So I really cannot say I ran that business. So that's the first thing because again, I was telling myself the story, that I'm not a businesswoman, I'm not good with business, I'm a creative, etc. come to you know, this the

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stage where my late husband now is in, in hospital alone, humble, and you know, it was decided that look, you know, you need to take over, because this company will continue, it has to continue, this is the thing that's sustaining the family, etc. So I was thrust into the role of CEO. And I did not know what I was doing. I didn't even know what the business was about. I had been to that office once, in all the years that they had been in operation, I hardly knew the people, I think I knew, like one or two people, there were 300 staff in that place. So it was not a small undertaking. And I'm thrust into this role. I'm in my industrial, My children are at home, you know, with, you know,

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our, our my surrogate mother on summer, you know, who some would call her a nanny, but they're home with her. And I'm having to just jump into this world. So when we say out of your comfort zone, like this was the most out of my comfort zone I had ever been for so many different reasons. And I was resentful. I didn't want to be that, you know, I didn't choose this. I knew that it was the right thing to do. But I hadn't chosen it. And I didn't feel that I was you know, really capable of doing a good job. It was so many things happening. I just went in then I was like, Okay, what do you need me to do? And I went in there and did it. And you know, all this time, I'm kind of, you know,

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there's this underlying sense of, I don't want to be here. I don't really want to be doing this. This is not my thing. And I'm just doing this because you know, my late husband began it and his dream, it's his vision, I need to do the right thing. So when I read the two things, I think there was a quote that I mentioned from Brendon Burchard. And then there's also Seth Godin linchpin, his book linchpin, which was amazing to me. And the reason why linchpin really landed with me was because he was saying that

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the only way that you become indispensable in your job is when you bring your full authentic self to the role, because if you don't bring full authentic self, all you're doing is ticking boxes, and anyone can tick boxes.

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But when you bring your full self to the role and you personalize it, and you make it yours, no one can replace you. And that was, for some reason alone as best it was just like it landed with me. And I thought, This is my company now. It's cinnamons company, it's you don't have to pretend to be your husband. In right? Right, exactly. So if this is my company, then what values do I have that I want to bring? What talents do I have? What what expertise and knowledge can I bring to this environment to really, you know, sort of make my mark and making my own. So so that was the shift, really, and I started doing, you know, lots of different things within the company that were in line with, with my

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vision for the kind of place that I wanted to run Alhamdulillah it was, it was an amazing experience, the fact that we even pulled it off, I love what I've been, it was, it was really something was really something so nice. Because what I had thought, what I thought you meant, as well, by that, you know, owning the fact that you have been sown is getting to grips with the finances as well.

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That's what I kind of interpreted. Because, at times, like, I know, for myself, like when I've tried to ignore the finance side of things, you know, like, as if that that's not a big part of it, you know, you can just kind of start ignoring it and not really realizing that actually know, my decisions are not just about creative decisions, they're about their business decisions, you know, does this actually work? Is this sustainable? That kind of stuff? I mean, do you think that was also a part of it? I would say because I had such a great team at office. And in that company, I don't think the my financial education started then I'd say my financial education, what you're talking

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about began when I started my, what I consider to be my first business, my own business. And that was in 2018, when I started my online, my digital business, and that's when now I became much, much, much more focused and much more, much more savvy, I would say, on the money side.

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And, you know, taking ownership of that more as a business because it was purely a business. Like there was nothing else that you could see it as, except a business, did this work financially? Did this not work? You know, what was the best use of time was the best investment and all that kind of thing that came when I really went and set something up of my own my own after the, after I had closed the the company that my husband founded.

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Okay, yeah, she's not gonna, Karen for sharing that you've been really vulnerable in this book, I must say, like, you've really been willing to go places that, you know, I think, especially as somebody who's well known, or somebody known as a Muslim woman, who's you know, like an influencer as well as involved in Islamic work, etc. It's hard isn't it to to be vulnerable. I mean, people don't expect us to be,

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or they think we have perfect lives. And we don't have the same struggles that other people do. But here, you've, there was one part that really stood out for me. And that was

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the feeling of wanting to run away.

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I think everyone's felt like that at some point, right? Like, just to give people context, you've you've you've shown in this book, you've gone through like showing up in different ways, right, showing up as a mother showing up as a wife showing up for yourself and your dreams. And in one of the sections where you were just talking about that sense of overwhelm that I'm sure so many of us have felt when, especially with kids, there's something unique about kids, I actually heard them, Jordan Peterson saying, you know, in an interview that he doesn't think it's possible for people to really grow up unless they have kids. 100 and he said is it's a bit controversial to say that but

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no, I because because never in your life has I was thinking yeah, that's so true. Because never in your life has somebody else suddenly been more important than you. Right? Like, that's, that's the first thing. And the second thing.

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It's almost as though it doesn't matter how organized you are. It doesn't matter. You know, how on it you were before you had kids.

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It's a compass, your your sense of control, I think

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kind of has to it gets diminished 100%

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You know, it's a stretch zone, you know, having children, you know, we I talk in the book about the comfort zone and the stretch zone. And definitely, you know, children, having a child will take you out of your comfort zone, there's no two ways about it. And you will be in the stretch zone, sometimes for many, many years, sometimes for the rest of your life, to be honest, because if we look at it, sometimes we think that, oh, pregnancy, maybe childbirth is like the big thing. But you realize that actually, it's just one big thing after another, isn't it? You know, there is no one big thing, you know, the birth isn't the one big thing, because then there will be more big things

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to come. And literally until the end of your life, there will be big things happening and big things coming.

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You know, and Subhanallah it's I agree with that. I agree. I think that's a really, it's an interesting

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support our growth as human beings as human beings as a human society, it's one of those rites of passage isn't it is one of those things that helps you to as you know, as you said, to grow up to become the more mature version of yourself, you know, it's like getting into a committed relationship is the same, you know, not on the same level. But a marriage does something similar, where all of a sudden, man or woman, you have to now take someone else's needs into account someone else's feelings, someone else's the way that they see the world. And, you know, you have to have this whole negotiation, which you've never had to necessarily do before. So it's all part of the

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journey. And that's the thing is, it's all part of the journey. And I guess what I wants to do is show up is just to give people certain tools to help them on the journey to strengthen them on the journey, because the circumstances are not in your control. Allah chooses this, a lot chooses the plot points in your story. And then what you have control over is how you decide to respond to those circumstances to those plot points to those twists, you know, that take place, you get to decide how you respond. And I think that even the understanding that you have a decision to make, that you can make a choice is in and of itself, a powerful life changing realization. Because a lot of people,

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they do think that everything just happens just as it had to them. They're making choices all the time, they don't get it, they just think something happened. I responded to it the natural way, the way I normally would respond. But no, once you understand that there is a process to it, something happens, your brain understands it in a particular way. And then you feel a particular way and take a certain action, you realize that I can now change the way I feel the way I act by changing my perception. And that is the that's the superpower that Allah gave us.

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Yeah, because I think you mentioned somewhere in the book that even inaction and apathy is a decision, right?

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Well, if I don't rock the boat, if I don't like I think one of the things where this kind of can present itself is when this there's an argument that needs to take place, there's a problem that needs to be faced, you know, like, like, as a family, we need to have an argument here. Like we need to have an argument. Yeah, because people think fighting or arguing in a marriage, for example, even in in the family, right? Yeah, they think that's just a bad thing. It's fine. It's a bad sign. But sometimes you need a little bit of a reset, you know, you need, you need a little bit of like this thing, if we don't deal with it, it's not going to go away, it's just going to keep getting bigger.

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And I'm going to get more Zen for, and it's gonna blow up in our faces. And it might even be too late if we don't deal with these types of things as they come, you know. And I think people sometimes think, Well, you know, if I just people think patience, I knew you were gonna say that, yes.

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And teaches patience solves everything. As I say, in South Africa, I'm doing some of that it sold everything. But as you were saying, even doing sobor there's a price to pay for that. Even avoiding an argument. There's a price to pay for that, you know, so like you said, it's not just the action that there's a price to pay for there's a consequence. There's also a consequence to not taking an action to not saying what you need to say, you know, to, to kind of to pretending that nothing is happening. There is a price there is a consequence for that. Go on. Sorry, I interrupted you probably Yeah, no, no, I was gonna say, Well, people have the wrong idea of what summer is anyway,

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right? I think it means just be quiet and don't say anything, or don't deal with the problem. And somehow it will wash over and things will be alright. When actually sobre means patient perseverance. So Tim

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persevering in a marriage means dealing with everything as it comes dealing with stuff, you know, not not shutting up and not saying anything. Same with kids. Same with siblings. Same with the wider family, you know?

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That is so I, you know, I feel like you need to say that again for the people in the back, because that's huge. drop their current shift and bring it say that.

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Thank you. Yeah, what I was saying is that people think sobor means because it's translated in English as patients, which is an actually doesn't do it justice, right. Patients in English means, you know, just you just be quiet and you just forbear and you just allow things to happen and things will get better, right.

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But sobor as a, as an Islamic concept is patient perseverance. So persevering. persevering is an action, it's not inaction, right? So if you have a problem, it means persevering in dealing with it, rather than not persevere.

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Yeah, persevering in allowing it to just exist, you know. So I think we need to change our understanding of suburb. But there was one part that I really wanted. Oh, I want to ask you about flow, that idea of flow? If you could explain that to our viewers and listeners. So I think it was connected to

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feeling the feeling of wanting to run away. Yeah. If you could talk a little bit about that feeling. And then the connection with flow, please? Sure. Um, I think, you know, I think we can all agree that the amount to which our reality differs from our expectation is the amount of frustration and unhappiness we experience. Right? Let's maybe say that again, in a simpler way, the further apart your reality, and your, you know, your expectation are, the more likely that you will experience frustration, you know, sadness, anger, lack of satisfaction, basically. Yeah. Now, one of the things that I noticed when I was doing my coaching work is that a lot of women have unrealistic

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expectations of themselves and of their lives. And the reason they have those unrealistic expectations is because they compare themselves to other people, and very often compare themselves to other people who are at a different stage in life. Sometimes the comparison could be with your own past self, for example, yeah, I think I've talked about this in the book, that, you know, you're in a situation now where maybe you have you know, young children, and you know, your whole life is these children. And you're looking at who you were before you married, and you're thinking, I'm not that girl anymore. You know, I'm not as beautiful as she was, I'm not as exciting as she was, you

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know, I don't get to do the things that she got to do. Which means that that's your expectation. And this is your reality. And there's a huge distance between the two. So therefore, you are unhappy. Yeah. Now, when you are in flow,

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you acknowledge the stage that you're in. And you understand that just like that stage had its good and bad, its difficulties and its pleasures. So this stage two has its good and bad, its difficulties and pleasures, we will never escape this duality ever.

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Ever. There is not nothing in this life, that we do not have to pay a price for nothing. Even the best of things, Salah catching fudger nobody ever looks at fudger as something that you pay a price for, but do we not pay a price to pray? fudger of course we do. We have to wake up out of the bed, we have to you know the get the alarm going, we have to get out of bed you need to make wudu you know and all of that stuff. But of course our perception of Salah is that Salah is all good, but it is good. But it still has a price attached to it. You know what I'm saying? So, the fact is that, again, going back to being present in your life, the whole concept of flow is understanding and

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respecting the fact that you Your life will change. And you will need to flow with the changes of your life and it's okay. It's okay to not be that girl before you got married. It's okay to be different from the woman you had with your first child for example, compared to your last one, you know, it's okay to not look like your cousin. It's okay for your life not to look like you're you know what your parents expected for you. It's okay for your marriage to look different to your friends marriages. It's okay as long as you are obeying Allah and you can reap the rewards from the life

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You have your good, because everyone has trials. Everybody hurts everyone. And these are like, they sound like truisms. Right. But I do think that people fool themselves into thinking that there is a better version of my life somewhere else.

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And B, there are people out there who are happier than me, whose marriages are better than mine whose children are better who have a perfect life. There are actually people out there who exist who have a perfect life. Social media doesn't help you know them.

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Because that the social media in particular Instagram, I feel, it encourages us to kind of peek into people's lives and compare what they have perfect version of them.

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Yeah, filtered version annaleigh. So yeah, so so flow is about acknowledging that, you know, we are we should be like the water. When the water comes. I say this in the book, you know, when it comes down from the the spring and the mountain, it comes through, if you've ever seen a mountain spring, it's very thin, like, like ravines almost it doesn't have a big like, you know, big wide waterway, it works its way down the mountain,

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sheets, the stone.

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In the next edition, it cuts through exactly, and then it gets to the stream, and then the stream, it can pick up a bit more steep or pick up more speed. And then once it goes into the lake, it spreads out and then it will narrow and out to the sea. That's, that's flow that's flow. I get that so much. Like, it's so funny, isn't it? How every stage of life we're waiting for the next one, right? And we're just like, and yet, sometimes when I reflect back on when, because my kids are all a lot older now, when they were little, I actually missed those days. And I know that when I was there, yes. I was like, Oh my god, I'm so overwhelmed. You know, I there were so that they were such

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blissful moments, you know, there was a certain slowing of the world, you know, that I yearn for and I kind of missed, you know,

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that's the thing, Fatima, you know, I, I lament this, you know, and I'm gonna get emotional. I love this. Because we do we do waste so much of the present. Because we're either in the past or living in an imagined future.

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The present is never good enough. And such a shame. Because once the present becomes a past, trust me, you'll be living there, just like you said, you know, you will be longing for those days, you'll be reminiscing about those days. But in your heart of hearts, you know that while you had it, you did not appreciate it. You're only appreciating it now that it's gone. And again, that's another message in the book as well. And that's one of the lessons that I learned from losing my husband is because trust me, we as human beings were the worst for taking a loss blessings for granted. We're just the absolute worst.

00:33:10--> 00:33:23

Whether it's our husbands, our wives, our children, our parents, you know, the current house that we live in, you know, the weather, whatever it is, we are the absolute worst at taking things for granted. And unfortunately,

00:33:24--> 00:34:03

often we have to lose in order to appreciate what we had in the first place. And I guess my is to say, guys, like Don't, don't go out like that. Don't be the one that had to lose it in order to realize that they had something amazing. For a while you've got these kids? Yes. Okay, they drive you crazy, but they're gonna always drive you're never gonna change. Yes, you've got this man. And he drives you crazy, but it's okay, because he's always gonna. What about the other things? What else is there here? What other Baraka is there here? Where is the joy? Where is the love? Where is the laughter, focus on that? focus on that, because you can't have something and not pay a price.

00:34:03--> 00:34:29

You can't have a husband and not pay a price. You can't have a wife and not pay a price. You can't have kids and not pay a price. You can't have a job and not pay a price. Everything costs something to focus on what you're getting for your money does not mean focus on what you're actually getting in exchange for that investment, whether it's in dunya and akhira. Focus on that. Because if you've already made the investment, you might as well see it as a good investment. And that's a perception issue. It's not anything else.

00:34:30--> 00:34:40

One of the practices that has really helped me and my family is you know, we don't give ourselves enough credit sometimes, you know about the things are going well.

00:34:41--> 00:35:00

It's so easy to to say well, why isn't our family like this and why aren't my kids like this and why don't we do this and you know, it's so easy for us to constantly feel like that. I think we really need to like do annual kind of reviews and I do do that sounds a little bit corporate but

00:35:00--> 00:35:27

You know, like, we literally sit down at the end of the year. And we'll, we'll go round and say, Well, what did you What have we done this year? And what have we experienced? You know, what were the positive memories? Let's reinforce them, you know, because it's so easy for our entire lifetime to whizzed past. And for people not to have, I think it's called internalized, or, you know, they haven't really taken stock

00:35:29--> 00:36:12

of what happened and what we've experienced and what we've been through and what, what our wins have been, right. Yeah. I did mention Brendon Burchard, in your, in the book as well. And I think one of the messages that I love of his is, bring the joy in saying that you get to infuse your life with the energy that you want. Yes. You're not just receiving Yes, vibes and receive? No, no, you got to actively infuse that into every interaction, every thing that you do. And I love that. I love that too. Joy is a big one. For me joy and gratitude. Those are my two words.

00:36:13--> 00:36:22

Awesome. I just like an affair. And but there was one thing that I was a bit worried, like, I'm really unsure about and I want to know what you think. Because, you know,

00:36:24--> 00:36:41

there's a part when you talk about that showing up for yourself emotionally, right? And you say, am I tuning into my emotions and ensuring that I acknowledge them and deal with them? Am I addressing emotional issues as they arise? am I working to heal any wounds from the past?

00:36:42--> 00:37:01

And then, you know, at the end, you say, or am I ignoring my mental state and suppressing my feelings? And this is something that I have, like been thinking about and trying to work out myself. I want to know what you think. Because for a lot of us, I think we'll we'll be able to, we can identify with the

00:37:02--> 00:37:14

the fact that our parents generation, they were very stoical. Right. And for most of us, I think, especially for me, I'm just talking from like, an Asian background, I guess.

00:37:16--> 00:37:18

And they didn't.

00:37:20--> 00:37:23

They didn't talk about the emotions.

00:37:24--> 00:37:34

Like, it's only when you really, really dig, I realized my mom was an orphan. Wow. Like, you know, like, she's really.

00:37:35--> 00:37:49

Yeah. And my dad, when I interviewed my dad, right. And I was like, that tells me that you don't talk about your childhood, you don't talk about like, when you were a little kid, little kid, you know, that tell us like he said,

00:37:51--> 00:37:59

Sometimes there's things that you it's worth forgetting about. Right? I was like, okay, like,

00:38:01--> 00:38:41

you know what I mean, right? And then later, I found out that, you know, he grew up in like a slum in India. And his family, one of his brothers, like, really worked hard and decided they were going to move into a flat, like, that was a big deal. Right? And from there, you know, all of the brothers ended up getting educated, and because of some, some people making that decision, you know, and just saying, no, we're not going to, and now they've got scholars and doctors and their families. Mashallah. But, you know, he won't really want he doesn't want to talk about what that felt like, you know, like, that period of his life.

00:38:42--> 00:39:19

Same with, you know, just that generation in general. Yeah. And so sometimes we look at them, and we think, well, there are role models, right. Like, and, and sometimes when I've faced issues and things, I've thought, Well, how would my mom deal with how dad deal with it? They, they would probably deal with it with that same sort of stiff upper lip thing, you know, and, and kind of, well, well, it's suburb is suburb, but it's an active sort of suburb, because they believe that, you know, they'll make, they'll take actions, but they won't complain, they won't

00:39:20--> 00:39:26

even share it, they won't necessarily feel like it's an emotion they need to deal with, do you know what I mean? Right.

00:39:28--> 00:39:33

But our generation, I mean, I have found a lot of utility in

00:39:35--> 00:39:43

expressing, you know, in sharing, not necessarily with the world, but with particular people, you know,

00:39:44--> 00:39:47

and dealing with stuff as you mentioned in your book, so

00:39:49--> 00:39:52

what's the balance because there is a certain type of

00:39:53--> 00:39:59

over obsession with ourselves, right? Like, yeah, like a narcissist, times that type of narcissism, but you know, oh, well, we

00:40:00--> 00:40:12

To me, it's all about me how I'm feeling how I'm how you're making me feel. What's the balance? You know, like, because there was something good in that generations way of dealing with stuff as well. Right?

00:40:14--> 00:40:19

I have something to offer on this. Um, are you familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs?

00:40:20--> 00:41:08

Yeah, but you need to explain it just in case I will do that. So if you are listening or watching, you can google Maslow's hierarchy of needs and you'll see a pyramid. At the bottom of the pyramid. It's obviously wide at the bottom and small at the top. At the bottom of the pyramid is physiological needs. So you're looking at basically air water, food, shelter, sleep, clothing, reproduction, okay. basic human needs. Yeah, from that you have safety needs. So personal security, employment, you know, resources, health property. Yeah. Next from up that is so up from that is love and belonging. So friendships intimacy, a sense of connection, up from that theme, respect, self

00:41:08--> 00:41:54

esteem, status, recognition, strength, freedom. And up from that, at the very top is self actualization, right? So the desire to become the best version of yourself and the most that you can be to fulfill your potential? Yeah. Okay. So I find this to be a really interesting framework, because at different points in society, different levels of that hierarchy are available, because of what's happening in society. in wartime, for example, you will find that people are struggling to fulfill even the first and second level of needs, basic security, basic food, shelter, etc. And I would argue that for many of our parents, many of them not all of them, but many of our parents

00:41:54--> 00:42:38

lived in a time where you couldn't necessarily guarantee even the first level so your father for example, up his family's focus would have been that first level, making sure that they've got somewhere safe to sleep, something to eat, you know, and be safe, right? Once they moved up, they were able to now address things like health, like education, etc. But before they've managed to secure the basic needs, no one's talking about education, okay, no one's talking about health, etc. It's literally like are we going to eat this week, so many of our parents may have come from those types of backgrounds. And I believe that their way of parenting or being parented, the way they were

00:42:38--> 00:42:48

socialized was necessary for the time that they lived in, they needed to be focusing on the sub stoicism you speak of, right? The

00:42:49--> 00:42:58

whatever it takes, it's got to, you know, like, I can't afford to be in my feelings I can't afford I don't have the, it's almost like an indulgent luxury,

00:43:00--> 00:43:30

luxury, luxury. So for example, if and so so your dad's want any, any of our parents are a good example of that. I look at the example of a marriage, for example, maybe previous generations, what were they looking to secure for their children when they wanted to find the spouse, the basic needs, probably the the one up from that, you know, health and, you know, some level of economic, you know, safety, but love and intimacy and connection, maybe not,

00:43:32--> 00:44:16

wasn't necessarily, it wasn't even an expectation, let alone something that people would be actively looking for. Now, that would be our parents or grandparents generation, especially in Muslim cultures. Fast forward to today, I would argue that we are, we have basically ascended the hierarchy of needs, because we are no longer worried about the basic needs, we have the health, we have the education, expect the love and belonging, and we are looking for something higher than that even which is psychological, which is, you know, now we have the luxury of paying attention to our feelings of dealing with trauma. When you're in a situation where you're literally operating at a

00:44:16--> 00:44:54

survival level. All that goes unnoticed trauma doesn't exist. It just is that's how it is you your body and your mind is on survival in survival mode. And right. I feel I think that that is that that is a you know, an explanation for why I love that. I never thought of it like that. Okay. And you're absolutely right, though, because actually, they say that each, especially when it comes to immigrants. They say that, you know, there is a big difference between each generation, right? So we can see that even just with our own kids, right, their experience of life in the UK.

00:44:56--> 00:44:59

Like, is completely different to ours. And sometimes we think oh,

00:45:00--> 00:45:39

You know, I don't appreciate these basic things, you know, and our generation, we do things like we're having these big Aedes, and we're trying to, because we're trying to compensate for. Exactly. And again, that stuff in our own childhoods, that's exactly right. But this is the thing is that I go back to my original point, which is that everything has good and bad, and everything comes at a cost. So just like you'll find, you know, many people came from working class backgrounds, whether they're, you know, immigrants or not, they would have had that same stoic mindset, that same almost survival instinct, because they we need, we've got the maybe they had the first level, but now we're

00:45:39--> 00:46:01

securing the education and the health and basically, you got beats you you know, maybe there was an alcoholic in the family, you know, there was there was stuff happening, but your focus was getting through it in order to be able to, you know, to be able to have a better life and establish something for your family. Now, that may have been the bad side of that. The good side was your work ethic that was built

00:46:02--> 00:46:45

us a sense of appreciation, you know, your your sense of identity, you know, maybe the close community bonds, etc. That was a very real part of that experience. Fast forward to those working class kids that got into education, maybe they were the first ones in their family to get an education, they married somebody who has an education, now they're middle class, and their kids are growing up in the suburbs with all the comforts that their parents never experienced, never had. They in private schools, you know, the whole middle class thing, great, good stuff. Also a price to pay. Because these kids do not have the work ethic, they do not have the appreciation, they do not

00:46:45--> 00:46:55

have the values, and they don't get it. They don't understand the value of money. They take everything for granted. This is it. This is the paradox of life. So parallel, this is the paradox of life.

00:46:57--> 00:47:17

So how are we going to prepare them? This is what I'm worried about, like, I would say, how will they learn not to be self indulgent, and he has pulled back that kids are indulged because we indulge them? Fine. fatness, and we do it from a place of love. But understand that

00:47:18--> 00:47:43

there's a price to pay for that. You know what I mean? If you're putting on fantastic Aedes every year, I'm not saying people should stop doing this because you make your choices. But just know that the consequence of that is that your children will expect a fantastic eat every year, and that will become normal. Now maybe you want that to become their normal, and that's fine. But just know that there's a cost for that. You know what I'm saying? And try to offset the cost in some other way somehow.

00:47:45--> 00:47:45

Right?

00:47:47--> 00:47:55

Yeah, unfortunately. So because sometimes the other thing as well is that we are living vicariously through our children. And

00:47:57--> 00:48:10

it's because we wanted the biggies because we want the big E's. And maybe that's a moment of self reflection, self reflection, to say, How can I heal this part of me without damaging my kids?

00:48:12--> 00:48:53

How can I heal this? How can I fill this void that I have, without damaging my kids? It's like children who are you know, people who grew up with parents who never said I love you. And we know many of those. Probably many of our parents, even my father only started saying I love you. Like in the last few years, I don't remember him saying that when I was a child, he would show it in other ways. But he never said it. Just Samia, right? Sure, many people can can can, can appreciate that. Now, so a person for example, who grew up feeling that they were somehow some way unloved by their parents or felt like they were neglected or whatever. They can overcompensate with their own

00:48:53--> 00:49:33

children, right, by going the complete opposite. So maybe they grew up their their parents were very disciplinarian. And so they decided that when I have my kids, I'm not going to do that to them. They're not going to go through what I went through, etc, etc. They end up overcompensating and not giving them any boundaries and just letting them run wild. What you need to do as an adult is to take a moment and say, again, how can I heal this part of me without damaging my children, because this is not about the kids. It's about you. It's about something that you need to resolve within yourself, not about your children, because if we are trying to heal our traumas, through our

00:49:33--> 00:49:59

children, the chances are that the children will, you know, will experience some negative consequences from that, because it means that we are not able to do what is right for the kids. We're doing what feels good to us. And usually what feels good is not the right thing. I found anyway, absolutely. I do still think that there is a balance like in expressing our problems and expressing our emotions and

00:50:00--> 00:50:15

holding them back to certain degree. You know, I don't know what that balance is yet. But I do think there is one because because I think sometimes a problem can be temporary, or it can be

00:50:18--> 00:50:23

something that can be dealt with. But when you express it,

00:50:24--> 00:50:31

I don't know, like, I'm still figuring this out yet. But when you express it very, very openly,

00:50:33--> 00:50:48

it becomes bigger as well, like, because in your own mind, I mean, yeah, maybe it's something that could be overcome, like, yeah, you know, but but by expressing it and being too open about it, now you've made it so real like

00:50:49--> 00:50:53

that. So like one of my mentors, one of the CIO, he was saying to me,

00:50:54--> 00:50:54

you know,

00:50:55--> 00:51:04

advice that he was given that he gives to others is, you know, the, well, he says the world, when you take water out of the well,

00:51:05--> 00:51:23

just take it from the top, right. And I said to him, Well, what does that mean? You know, what do you mean by that? And he said, Well, sometimes when we dig deep, when we go too deep, and we put, you try to get the water at the bottom of the well, we get the mud and the dirt.

00:51:24--> 00:51:26

And he said,

00:51:27--> 00:51:47

with a lot of things in life, like he was talking about marriage is talking about kids, you know, like overly, because there is a such thing as over obsession, right, like overly analyzing things. By Oh, he said, If you overanalyze things, it's like you're digging too deep. And sometimes it's better just to take the water from the top

00:51:48--> 00:51:55

thing for you on this, I have something for you. And it goes back to being clear on what you want. Yeah.

00:51:56--> 00:52:16

If what you want is to have a lasting marriage, and you want to be happy in the marriage, then make your your actions and your thoughts and your emotions aligned with that. The first thing I wanted to say actually, before that was, let's remember that emotions are not triggered from the

00:52:17--> 00:52:48

emotions are as a result of the process that takes place in the brain, how whatever has happened is being processed. Right? That is something you can do, you can do something about that, right. So the first thing is, if you're in an emotion that you don't want to experience, you may want to look at reframing how you are seeing this particular experience this person or whatever it is, right. Because if the emotion is not helpful, change the way that you see the thing, and it will actually affect your emotions about that.

00:52:50--> 00:53:33

So that's the first thing I want to say is that people do think that something happens, I felt an emotion, there was nothing in between. That's not they don't have it, there is a filter, that filter exactly that the information is being filtered by your brain. And the way that you filter it is what affects the emotions that you feel. So if you can change the filter, or at least become aware of the filter, you can actually change your emotions. So that's the first thing I would say. Second thing is, everyone needs to get clear on what they want. And then ask themselves, this thought that I am entertaining this path that I'm going down in my mind, these emotions that I'm cultivating, are they

00:53:33--> 00:53:34

giving me what I want?

00:53:37--> 00:53:39

Like he said about the marriage and Well, yeah.

00:53:40--> 00:54:01

If you're focusing on the negative in your marriage, you're going to be unhappy, you're going to think, you know, I don't want to be hearing more. How can I get out? It's not fair that all of this and you go down that slight downward spiral? spiral? Is that what you want? I mean, is what you really want to leave the marriage? Because if it is, then how about it, okay, because that's the way to go.

00:54:03--> 00:54:41

That's the way to go. If you do not want to leave the marriage, if you want the marriage to last, if you want to be happy in the marriage, change the thoughts that you are having about marriage. Because if you change the thoughts that you're having the change you're focusing on, the way you feel about the marriage will change. If you guys don't believe me, try it yourself. Yet what you focus on and what you focus on grows, you put energy into it, like you were saying, you put energy into negative emotion. Not only does the negative emotion grows, but you start to see evidence for why you share all around you, right?

00:54:42--> 00:54:59

If you want if you're in that situation, you've made a choice to be in that situation. It's probably not a good idea to cultivate negative emotion about that situation. Because it's a choice that you made, right? And there's it's all there's I mean, there's so panela I believe that there's always fear

00:55:00--> 00:55:26

In every situation, no matter how difficult it is, there's always fear. And if you decided that you're staying in that situation, you might as well focus on the fear. So that at least can have peace of mind. At least you can have sukeena at least you can feel that I've made this decision. I'm at peace with this decision, because I am okay. I am okay with this. That makes sense. And usually there is a lot of, that's the thing. And

00:55:27--> 00:55:47

then there is the annoying thing, right? But because we focus on those annoying things, like you said, the annoying things grow. And it actually corrupts our perception of the whole situation. salutely Absolutely, yeah. And sometimes, that's why sometimes when people are out of that situation, they look back and they say, it wasn't that bad. Like, yeah, yeah.

00:55:49--> 00:55:57

Yeah, maybe I didn't realize things could be worse, you know, without certain what I didn't realize what I was taking for granted, in that.

00:55:58--> 00:56:03

It goes back to that whole taking for granted thing, right? The grass is greener, the

00:56:05--> 00:56:12

grass is greener in the past, that the grass is seldom greener, the grass just needs watering, just like everywhere.

00:56:13--> 00:56:27

And and you know, there's the thing I use in some of my master classes about, you know, the, I think it's a Native American story about a man who a great grandfather who tells his grandson about the two wolves that are in his mind, and they're, you know, they're fighting and, you know,

00:56:28--> 00:56:46

he doesn't know which one is gonna win this battle. And one is the highest self and one is the lower self. And, you know, the son, the grandson asked him like, which one will win? You know, is it the greedy one, the angry one, the frustrated rageful one? Or is it the generous one that the peaceful one, the common one, and the grandfather system, the one that you feed.

00:56:51--> 00:57:24

So it's, and it's the same with us, you know, that what you focus on, where you put your energy, where you put your time you put your resources that will grow, inshallah it will grow. So be careful and be mindful of what it is that you're actually watering what it is you're pouring into. Because if it's something that is, is not for your benefit in dunya, and Africa, then you may not want to be pouring into that anymore, you may want to shift your focus to something else that is in alignment with how you want to live on what you want for yourself and what Allah wants from you as well.

00:57:27--> 00:57:38

Just briefly, if you don't mind it, we were talking once and you were mentioning about, because we're talking about, we've touched on the topic of marriage and looking for the good and right.

00:57:40--> 00:57:52

You were talking about the gathering where you met some teenage girls, and and actually recently, I've also done a session with teenage girls. And I was quite surprised as well, you know, with some of the

00:57:53--> 00:58:03

the things that they're thinking about, but I don't think we were thinking about that age. And maybe it goes back to the whole Hierarchy of Needs thing, you know.

00:58:05--> 00:58:07

Sorry, that just

00:58:09--> 00:58:21

unrealistic. But you see that sense of entitlement or unrealistic nature comes from, doesn't it like a type of over analysis and over indulgence.

00:58:22--> 00:58:59

I don't know, like, the media as well, I'm not gonna put that down. visuals. You know, we are being programmed all the time, all the time. And I believe now with this generation, the programming is much more pervasive than it's ever been. We had pop music, and TV shows, these guys have not only got music streaming all the time, they've got films, they've got, you know, obviously TV shows and everything, but they've got social media, the worst. So they're literally being programmed that ideas are being shaped literally almost every minute of the day, by outside forces. So so to be specific. We were talking about how,

00:59:00--> 00:59:12

you know, some of when the topic of marriage, some of the girls who are like teenagers, you they're already talking about things like toxic masculinity. And

00:59:13--> 00:59:38

can you just describe that and just so that we like, I'm assuming most of our listeners and viewers are going to be parents, probably the generation of parents, right? Like, we need to be aware of this stuff, you know, and I feel like I do these q&a sessions where girls can ask whatever they want, and they can submit anything, it doesn't matter. And I talk about them things in completely explicit terms, you know,

00:59:40--> 00:59:59

because I feel like they need that from within the community, you know, they shouldn't have to seek that outside of the community. And also, they shouldn't have to allow these worries, these doubts or whatever questions they have to fester to such an extent that later on in life, they might blow up, right?

01:00:01--> 01:00:12

So, I really believe in dealing with with these issues, and I hope that this conversation will help, especially the parents out there to, to notice this because

01:00:13--> 01:00:27

it's become pervasive, you know, in the culture. And I mean, even in my children's Muslim school, I remember hearing the head teacher doing this chant in the assembly about girl power. And I,

01:00:29--> 01:00:30

which is kind of funny.

01:00:33--> 01:00:56

trend. Yeah, I mean, Muslim school, as you know, but in the sense that he thought he was being empowering to the girls, which is fine. But it, but it's not fine. I don't know. Because I've heard about schools where, where, where boys were out recently it was there was a news article about boys being asked to stand up and apologize to the girls in class.

01:00:59--> 01:01:07

I was like, What? My daughter came to them. And she said to me, Oh, Mom, you know how boys see girls as objects? Yeah.

01:01:09--> 01:01:48

That's Excuse me. What do you mean? She said, you know, you know how Boise goes is objects here. As if this is this is a thing. This is a foregone conclusion. It's a fact Everyone knows that. I said, What exactly do you mean by an object? She said, you know, something that you just use, and you throw away? I said, Oh, really, so I'm thinking this comes from some, one of her friends has got some things happening on tik tok. And one of her friends has got it, a friend has come to her and said, Well, you know how boys use girls like objects? Yeah. And now she's coming to me with this. So I challenged her on it. And I broke down, you know, a non biased understanding of what she was

01:01:48--> 01:01:51

talking about. But I think to your point,

01:01:52--> 01:02:31

we as parents, especially, you know, those of us who are sort of Gen X's millennial parents, we don't have any excuse for not engaging with the things that ideas that are out there that our children are exposed to, we don't really have an excuse, because it's not like there's a language barrier. There's no cultural barrier. A lot of the time, a lot of these ideas, you are familiar with them in some shape, size, or form. But I have found personally, one of the greatest joys for me over the past year, has been having intellectual conversations with my sons and now my daughter, Mashallah, now that she's older, but really, you know, we will, they will come with their stuff from

01:02:31--> 01:03:13

the outside, and I will listen to them. And some things I will say it that makes complete sense, or I'll contextualize it, or I'll challenge them on it. And also, well, what makes you say this? Or why is that okay, then, well, what's the problem really with this and get them to think for themselves to really start use them using their critical thinking skills, to filter out the stuff that is being thrown at them and pushed on them all the time, through social media and all the other media as well. So that really for me is is the key parents wake up, get savvy with with these ideas. And you know, and you know, work it out for yourself, you know, to see, okay, well, for example, as you

01:03:13--> 01:03:56

mentioned, toxic masculinity, etc. So, research it, break it down, don't just accept these terms that are being thrown out there into the world because my thing with with the the feminist worldview, and that was on the, you know, somebody else's podcast, and Chuck can talk about feminism, which I don't normally do. And you and I, over the years, we've had a lot of conversations about feminism, and I think my thinking has definitely evolved and on feminism and on feminism's legacy, but things like patriarchy, misogyny, toxic masculinity, etc. These are put out into the world as if this is the truth. This is the truth of the world. And if you're going to look at Islam,

01:03:57--> 01:04:23

through a feminist lens, you're going to come up short. That fact of the matter if you're going to look at our families, through a feminist lens, you're going to come up short, because the reality is, if you look at men through a feminist lens, you're going to come up short, because as far as feminism is concerned, men are the problem. masculinity period is the problem. It's not even about the toxic ness or anything. It's like any kind of masculinity

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is toxic. Luckily, exactly. And so what I think the point I want to make is as a mother of boys, right? I cannot stand I'd like I cannot get on board with that. Because I want my boys to have confidence in themselves. Like I want my girls to have confidence. I want my boys to have self respect. Like I want my girls have self respect. We had a there was a like a book reading book club invited me there reading show up and they wanted to ask me some questions. And somebody said, Why don't you do a version of show up?

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For teenage girls, because they really need this stuff. And I said, You know, I hear you and insha Allah work on something. But I would argue that not only do men need to read what I put in, show up, but our boys need this advice, too, because we act like our boys are all okay? Their mess, healthy sound, they're confident and grounded. They're established their own purpose. They know their values, in what will and what? Well, if you're talking about confidence, the boys and girls needed, you've been talking about embracing gratitude. Boys and girls need it. If you're talking about sincerity and having intention, boys and girls need if you're talking about having courage, they

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both need it. If you're talking about embracing yourself and being authentic, all of us need this. So that is one of the reasons why as a mother of boys, I have to battle I have to push back against this because what you're saying is that, my boys for them to grow up proud of being boys, like we tell our girls to be proud of being girls, that is problematic. You're saying that my boys, you know, wanting to be men, and wanting to be men who provide and look after their families and feel a sense of responsibility is toxic? No, because trust me, my daughter, she wants a man like that. So where is she going to find a man like that if I'm emasculating my boys, if I'm telling my boys too

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much, and they need to tone it down. And you know, and I'm beating them over the head with patriarchy, and misogyny and making them feel guilty and feel ashamed for being a man that we're going to find what she's looking for, where are all these sisters gonna find what they're looking for, if our men no longer have a sense of self, no longer have a sense of worth, because of the fact that they're men, and they're carrying all this generational guilt, or they're supposed to carry all this generational guilt doesn't make sense. It's, it makes sense in the moment. But in the long term, it doesn't make any sense at all. Once you start looking at marriage, and you start giving

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birth to boys, it doesn't make any sense anymore. You know what I'm saying? Like when you're a student, when you're in uni, it makes all the sense in the world. Try to have a relationship with a man, when all you can talk about is toxic masculinity and patriarchy and misogyny try to have a relationship based on mutual respect and admiration with a man, when those are, the idea is that you entertain and that's your lens, try that. And then try to raise a boy who feels good about himself as a little boy, as a young man, with all those ideas in your head. It's a big ask.

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Absolutely. And I think when I was reading

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the life of Ella Collins, Malcolm X, his eldest sister, who really was responsible for bringing into Islam, you know, in the long term, when you look at her, the way she nurtured him, she became his guardian, she, you know, all of that. And then she paid for him to go and homage and one of the things that she mentioned, her son wrote a biography. And he quotes her extensively in it.

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She says, When Malcolm came over to live with her, she could see that he was, he had quite an aggressive nature, right? This is the way she described it. And she said, but she knew it was his expression of masculinity. And she didn't want to do anything, to suppress it. Instead, she believed in channeling in the right direction, right. And I just loved the way she talked about it, because she said, you know, she was obviously talking about, like, black history, and she was saying how, you know, the black man's masculinity has been, you know, basically bludgeoned in the American context for so long. And she didn't want to do that to the next generation of men. And I just loved

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the way she actually saw

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those masculine qualities, right, which today, we kind of look on as I don't know why as negative and yet we need those qualities, right. Like, we need the soldiers to be aggressive, you know, we need like I said, it makes sense. When you're a student and you're at uni, and you're reading books, it makes so much sense. Once you come out of that environment. And you look at the real world and you look at history, and you look at the future, it doesn't make any sense at all. Sorry to say, yeah, and if you if you think about Malcolm X, and I just feel like wow, you know,

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that's sort of the,

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that's

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the aggression, if you want to call it that, right. That was in him was so needed.

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aggression, it was masculine energy, right. I say, energy, masculine energy and feminine energy are different. And, you know, obviously, masculine energy can be changed.

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into aggression. Yeah, but it's it's the, it's the energy. And the energy can go into aggressive, aggressive acts into competitive acts, you know, in all these areas where we see men thriving, it's their masculine energy that allows them to thrive, just like when we're in those environments, our masculine energy allows us to thrive there as well. But you know, we want everyone on that we need them to have their masculine energy in place. And I just loved the way she described it, you know, as about how she believed in nurturing that masculine energy, she called it masculine in a great aggression, you know, masculine energy.

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I said, what I what I have observed in our community is that, I don't think that we're at the stage where we are shaming our boys for being boys at all, I think boys have a lot of privilege in our community. But again, I that privilege is costing them. Because what I have seen is that, unfortunately, are left to their own devices, they don't have enough guidance, they don't have enough companionship, they don't have enough investment in their development, for them to actually come through this quagmire of sort of adolescence, as a whole and healed and confident individuals I feel as a community, we shelter the girls, and we leave the boys out to the wolves. And that's that,

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that is not the way that it should be, you know, you'll find, you know, in our community, so many, I mean, again, different communities, different strokes, but so many initiatives for girls, so many role models for girls, and different kinds of role models as well, you know, I mean, there's there's, there's the I feel that there is a culture of you know, sisters supporting and empowering other sisters and into girls things, girl things, girls things, girls things. And my kids would say to me and my friends sons would say like, Is someone going to do something for the boys? You know, are we gonna have something for the boys? So, you know, maybe at one point, the boys got all the

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good stuff, and the girl left at home. But I feel since you know, since the 90s. In the UK, I've seen girls really being invested in and women sisters, being very mindful about creating spaces for girls, and maybe not that much investment on on the boys side. Certainly these, this has been the case in the communities that I've grown it there's the most thing. There's the messaging. And that's it.

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Do you think it's because people fear losing the girls more? So what is this, they feel like? They're more susceptible? Okay, now more susceptible is an interesting phrase, feel girls are more vulnerable, therefore, they need to be catered to with a girl, school, club, girls, sports, etc. But if you are not paying as much attention to the boys, and what are you doing with the boys, the boys are in a mixed school, they're in mixed sports, or they're just out in the street, out on the road doing whatever. And that for me is problematic. Because yes, our boys need to learn how to handle themselves. But at what cost? At what cost? That's the question I always ask at what cost? Yes, the

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boys need to be able to handle themselves. And I think fathers I would love to have fathers in this conversation. Because I think that our our tendency as mothers is to protect them to nurture, whereas men, the fathers, for all the kids, they're more likely to kind of push them out and you know, make them take, do dangerous things. But I would love to have this conversation with fathers to see.

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Are you happy with the way that the boys are kind of like out there in the world doing whatever they're doing getting caught up in whatever they're getting caught up in? Do you think that this is the best thing for their development as the father? Or could we be doing things a little bit differently for for boys as well and maybe just just making more provision for their own nurturing and development? You know, and just not leaving them to the elements? I think I think that's my thing is just leaving them to the elements where they Yeah, it's it's tough out there. It's tough out there, especially urban boys, the Muslim boys in an urban context, come on, you know what's

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happening. It's

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just not going to parent and I'ma and

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I think the last thing that I really want to touch on with you

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is embracing imperfect or Ramadan's?

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Yeah, can you can you describe the context in which you mentioned that in the book and

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well, this, this, this podcast is probably going to go out in Ramadan. So

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you can imagine the sisters they had it all planned, they had it all worked out, and now it's probably mid Ramadan, or it's, you know, and it's like, oh, my God, it's all fallen apart is or at least it's not the way Yeah, you had planned it. What's your philosophy?

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before Ramadan with kids, remember the thing I said about the gap between expectation and reality is the is the amount of pain and frustration you'll feel. So, of course, we aim high. And we have high hopes.

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But expectation is not the same as hope.

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That makes sense.

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Hoping having a vision for something and planning for that is one thing. expectation is something else. expectation is more like the routine necessary, like this is how it has to be in order for me to be happy, then that's not great.

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So, you know, if you are in that situation, this trauma bond, I will say the same thing as I say in the book, which is show up for what you have, and appreciate what you have, you know, yes, the buttock off from what you have right now, do not pay any attention to what is not yours. What is not for you, what has not been written for you, it's it is none of your concern. Do not spend a single moment fixated on what was or what is yet to be or what you have, there is no butter cut in that no benefit whatsoever. Fish faders he is saying he didn't my fish that he does see. So that's what I would say is focus on what you have. Be grateful for what you have, enjoy what you have, you know,

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pour into what you have right now, and make the most of it. And just saying handling up and I'm good with this. This is great for me. hamdulillah Yeah, and so my philosophy has been definitely for the last few years of Ramadan, simplifying everything, you know, like strip it down to its basics. So when I see like on Instagram or in other places like the sisters who are preparing these elaborate, beautiful displays and you know, like the calendars like for young

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Mashallah,

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Mashallah. I admire that. But I'm like, No, thanks. Because, because for me,

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simplicity is everything.

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Simplicity is savoring Ramadan, like you can have simplicity, you can have the bread and butter things in place. So, you know, what are the bread and butters of Ramadan, if there has to be ready at a certain time, people have to be in a good, I would say mindset throughout, you know, you want people to be in a good mood, and taking care of their well being throughout the day, right? while they're fasting.

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If that means getting everything off your calendar,

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for me, that's what it means. And making sure your needs met asleep, the you know, the private time the meantime, you know, the time to just have a little space just for me, or I can look close the door and escape to you know, just to do my own little bothers reading etc. and just have the basics in place, you know, that I wave at people, I think people are going to be going to this year, especially the men and boys if if it if you know, the mosques do open to to a certain extent. If it's in the house, you know, make that the focal point of the day.

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And if it's outdoors, then make sure you have everything ready for people to be able to do that. And and I feel like simplicity is the key. Because it just makes you then value the what's actually important, you know, everything else is a distraction or a complication at the end of the day. We know what the brain we know what it's for. We know how to get the most out of it. He says human beings you know, we like we like friends, I guess yeah, we like

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but even even for eat, I feel like I started noticing that kids stop focusing more on gifts. Then people you know, and so I I just really completely cut all of the kind of frills down and I'm like we're meeting family. That's the important thing, getting to meet them, you know, getting to spend time with somebody who loves you. That's important, not what they're going to give you, you know, which can end up becoming the focus. So yeah, I think simplicity as well.

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Is that kind of fair and Naima.

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So people can get your book from Amazon can be Yeah. All actually just anywhere online. They can get it from Yeah, all the all the online retailers and if the Islamic bookshop does not stop it, just ask them to stop. It's from Q publishers.

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So they can get this does that gonna happen? Yes show up. Do you look it up brothers and sisters, thank you very much is here and I hope you have a great Ramadan and eat you too and I hope we meet as well inshallah during that time. Okay, I'm just going to sign off

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jack malankara dear brothers and sisters, thank you for joining me. I really hope you benefited from that hope you're having a great rabban hope that Allah Subhana Allah blesses you and eat Mubarak for you. You know, I'm assuming that this is going to go out around that time. Just lack of luck here and stay in touch. share this episode with people with somebody who needs to hear it. You know, I'm sure I personally have benefited so much from namers book, and she shared so many gems from her book during this episode. So does that Camilla Heron subhanak Allahu mo behind the shadow Allah ilaha illa Anta stuff you recover to be like assalamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato.