Ramadan 2023 Appeal
Speaking Freely At The Ipci
Channel: Ahmed Deedat
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Episode Transcript ©
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Our faithful listeners to freely speaking will remember that we had the privilege a year or so ago of interviewing in Geneva shake out harsh Ahmed deedat, who is president of the IPC AI, that's the Islamic Propagation center International, in Durban, South Africa. And it was amazing for me, some of my Islamic friends in Geneva had called and said, you were coming. And I didn't know this existed. I did not know about you. And it was very interesting to have our first conversation together. So since time has passed, and I am now in Durban myself, I would like to bring our audience into your center, and hear you speak from your heart, about your center, Islam in general,
and then we'll expand out. You're most welcome. Thank you for letting us come. So let's start about Durban and Islam. How did it come here?
Muslims that touch the shores of South Southern South Africa, were Muslims who were brought here by the Dutch. Even the Dutch people conquered Indonesia.
Those Muslims were fighting for the freedom. They were captured as prisoners of war. And they were shipped to the Cape of Good Hope, and sold to the white men as slaves. Then when the British conquest Malaysia, those Malays Muslims were fighting for their freedom, they were also captured as prisoners of war. And they were also shipped to the Cape of Good Oh, good hope for the white man and sold to the white men as slaves for 300 years. Those early Muslim first Muslims have touched the shores, and they have been under pressure from the Christians to christianize them. But after 300 years of hammering that group of people, they have become one of the most militant Muslim
communities in the world, that hammering into the softening them have heard them as deep.
Now, you see when you say they have become one of the most militant groups of Muslims, again, my Christian background forces me to ask militant towards whom and to what because if one, there's one thing that Christianity and Islam have in common, it's that everybody is fighting everybody everywhere. So who is militant to whom in Islam around here is not is the militancy is in his defense, because they were under pressure under attack. You see, the white man managed to change his names, surnames, they are almost all these people they are called Malays in this country today. Malay Malays, a homily, like Malaysia Malays, though they originated in Indonesia. And in Malaysia,
they are all called Malays. Mm hmm. Now, that community of people, you see, because they don't have the pleasure. The defense mechanism was also it was not a soft militant in the defense
against the Christian missionaries. Yes. And that that that type of psychology remained with them. That was the one group of Muslims. And another group of Muslim came from the indo Pakistan subcontinent that they came to this country because they were starving
in India, so they came looking for a livelihood. So they settle down in mostly in Thailand, the Transvaal, and the Malays, mostly in the cape, because that's where they were taken. In the first instance. I see. So the white man managed to change the names of these people, they all carry Western names, like you'll find a Muslim name is the use of Hendrix, Abdullah Fender, so what is Fenton? What is Henry's? What is Smith? This is no no, these were slave masters. They carry the names of the slave masters, exactly as in America, exactly the same thing. But not with this difference, the 300 years of memory that the afro Americans received in America, it changed them all
to Christianity. This 300 years at Emory in southern Africa, made them better Muslims than the Muslims at home.
All right, then let me ask you a hard question right away and that is if 300 years of Christians hammering at the Muslims didn't change them, but why would you fake that 300 years now of Muslims hammering it, hammering it, Christians would change them.
In other words, I because
At the Islamic Propagation center is that not to spread Islam to the world, to the world, including Muslims, Jews, Christian, and to all you expect Christians to resist? for 300 years? No, you see, if the right approach is there, you see, there is an approach, the approach of the Christian missionaries and the Christians, there was a harsh approach, like what they did to the American Negroes in America, same type of treatment was given to the Muslims yet, but now one gave in because they had no, somehow they didn't have that type of background, religious background, do resist conversion, these people add
it to the malaise, they had something basic knowledge about religion, which kept them together.
Now, in our approach today, you see, we are using a technique
of speaking to a people, the Jews and the Christians, according to their own background and experience. The methods that were used by the Christian missionaries was in the past, attacking Islam, attacking the Holy Prophet Muhammad attacking the Koran. And that didn't get me. But we are not attacking Jesus, or the Christian people, what we are saying is, we have we have an approach where we are calling the people says, Come, let us reason together. And in that, we say we want to show you from your own background and experience that he knows about time that you look for a person who would give you a solution to all your problems, because we say that Jesus Christ before he
parted, he told his disciples, He said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot believe them now. Meaning you got the capacity. He had the knowledge, he had the solution to our problem for eternity, who Jesus Christ is the mighty, as a man of God is a mighty messenger of God, as a Messiah, he had answers to all your problems, but the people to whom he was addressing, they were incapable of receiving that message. So he says, how he, when He, the Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth. For he shall not speak from himself, but what you shall hear that shall he speak, and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come, he shall glorify Me. Now
we Muslims, were claiming that that spirit of truth, or that comforter, as prophesied by Jesus is Muhammad, and he's giving you a solution to all your problems.
Those solutions might not go down well, because we are all used to certain ways of living thinking. But if you sit and reason these are solution to your problems, whatever problem you have.
In South Africa, the biggest problem we have is race. And throughout the world, the biggest problem of mankind is racism.
And Islam not only speaks about the father of God and the Brotherhood of men, it gives you a solution to your problem, how to solve it, it lays out the system, whereas everybody else talks, or the Word of God it is but one Lord, He created us all. And we are always children, that is taught, but how to create that brotherhood.
In Islam, we have a system.
Now the system is easy five times a day, the Muslim is made to come together. Yes, in what is called Salah pray.
When they gather together in a mosque.
They use the same tax for ablution. They use the same towels for wiping the faces, and they stand shoulder to shoulder. no gaps left between the rich and the poor, the black and the white or whatever, they all must stand shoulder to shoulder because the Holy Prophet Muhammad has said that when you stand up for prayer, you must not leave gaps for the devil to get in between you and your brother. Now the devil he was talking about was not the guy we see in the art gallery in Durban. If you go to the museum complex, you see the in the art gallery beautiful paintings by great artists. Among them, there is one huge painting of a beautiful woman with wings.
And she's got a one and a half. Automatic rent. Why do I want one one in our air? Has it and she's direct from the devil. In the picture. You can see she's direct the devil to go to hell. And you can see hell in the distance. And you see this devil with horns with sharp ears and a tail with a bob hook with a really complex firing himself and his flying have also towards hell.
Not that if anybody saw we will run for dear life. We flee for our life. So Mohammed wasn't talking about that. He was talking about you yourself. We ourselves, you know our racial pride, our arrogance of riches, I am White is black, and I'm rich his book that devil must not be allowed to come in between
Between you and your brother. So five times a day, the Muslims gather together stand shoulder to shoulder, then in a bigger circle. On Fridays, more people gather from different districts and on occasion have two or four festivals, but we call eat, one after the fasting season. And another one, after two months and 10 days after that another big feast. Then we get together in an open field, again, people wider group comes along together, then, once a year in Mecca, the whole Muslim community from all over the world, you know, the blond haired and blue eyed Turk. And the dark is called utopian Muslim, and the Chinese Muslim Muslims from all over the world together in the same
pilgrims garb, which creates a type of brotherhood and unity, there is a system not only talking, but the system is laid out, which no other religious group of people have. They all talk but there's no system of bringing people together. But still, if I may say, and we're engaged in an academic exercise, right, but Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, right, these are systems one way or the other, perhaps not as elaborate as Islam. Right, but they are systems of people coming together to worship what is one God with the exception of Hinduism, they have more. And yet when you quote the Bible you said and yet he Who comes after me, when he the spirit of truth, the Spirit of Truth,
okay? If you translate what Christians call the Holy Spirit, into the same thing that this is known as, in other words, a little bit towards the mystical idea, right? Then in the, the, the mystical idea of what he Who comes after me, if each one of us can practice our formal parts of the religion, but be inspired by that invisible and nameless, absolutely, there's no way one can, can explain, or the experience of having experienced the living presence of the Holy Spirit. Does that not go beyond your practice and my practice and the practice of our neighbor? And doesn't that unite us in a, in an invisible world toward this thing that you call Allah, and I call God. You see, it sounds really
nice, beautiful, but mankind, he needs simple, straightforward directives. For example, now you are a good hearted person, you in your heart and mind might have no racial prejudice whatsoever, you can cultivate that. But then billions of the world, no matter how much you talk about, love thy neighbor as thyself. See the person as Senior Living program, that that neighbor must be one like yourself belonging to your church. See, the wordings are identical is a love thy neighbor as thyself. Beautiful, who's your neighbor? So the African is trained? What actually happens is this. He said, No, as long as that other one is also an Afrikaner and belonging to my church. He's not a Jehovah's
Witness. He's not necessarily Adventist, he's not a Roman Catholic. So do he utters the words all right. But in his mind, he has made up his Look, the African is not my day, but
that's how he paused for 300 years. I don't know now what will happen, but this is the programming. So what we need is simple directives. What does this Supreme Being this Holy Spirit tells you, in clear cut language, about races? How did the races come about? Who is better than the other? Is it white or black? Or Brown? The color the mixture? What who is the best? So there is not an ethicist, which gives an answer like the Islamic system gives you It says, in the Holy Quran, it says the idea of NASS so all mankind in
most certainly it is we were created, you all have a male and a female, common origin. Yes. Which allows you Obama and It is we who are made you into nations and tribes, who God Almighty, what for? He says,
that you may recognize one another. This Mr. JOHN is an Englishman, that other Mr. JOHN is an African. This Mr. JOHN is a Frenchman, this john is an Indian. These are convenient labels for recognizing people, says this holy book, the book of Islam, but we have a tendency to create our own false standards of judging. Despite all this, we made from we come from father Adam, you know, we are all his children. That is what we all say. Like, especially the Jews, the Christians and the Muslims. But in the hearts and minds, the man says I'm a Jew, we are the chosen people. The rest of the world is going Gentiles unclean.
The Christian also is the look, yes, yes, we believe in the father of men. But for 300 years, you as the African is doesn't consider the African as is equal, even going into his church, the Indian belonging to his church is still not equal.
And the Roman Catholic Church was claiming to be the most universal, Catholic, most universal. I have been living here in there, but on the same street as the cathedral, just around the corner here. And on that street as a young man, I used to watch the Corpus Christi procession every year. Yes, Corpus Christi in the body of Christ, and needs to come out from the cathedral walk through Cathedral road, I lived in number 40 Cathedral road. And here in Europe, I watched.
We had some like a killaby like thing and the police under the canopy and marching Yes, I can remember the more details in that then as to see the whites, men, women and children, and behind them, the colors, men, women and children behind them, the Indians, men, women and children, and behind them, the Africans, men, women and children in variable element, no change. Here in Europe, the white men first Then comes a color that's a mixture between black and white, then comes the Indian, then comes the African, and everybody knows his place. How did it happen? You have been programmed, this is how it ought to be. See, the Indian is before the African and the colored is
before the Indian and the white man is before all. Mr. deedat.
I agree with what you say.
Islam, all men are brothers and everybody is equal. I'm going to accept that totally at face value, then I would like to ask you to speak if you will, to the following two points, number one, in that case, let's move to Afghanistan. And please tell me why all those Muslims are fighting each other in Afghanistan, in Russia and in Azerbaijan, and in the in the part of Iran? Who are they? And why are they fighting with each other if they are brothers in equals.
This time, the better day was first between the communists who were ruling and the bulk of the people who were good simple Muslims. And they were asking for their freedom against the communist rule in their own country of gun is by Afghanis.
Then Russia jumped
onto the bandwagon to help the communist to communist the whole country. Yes, and the war took place. And after 10 years or so, the Russians had to leave. They left the country lifted to the own DVD, divide whatever it is. Now, it's human nature, human nature, that the people who have been helping you, they have certain motives, and they have been exploiting it. For example, law. One group of people, the Mujahideen means those people who are fighting for the freedom, they will help by Iran.
So they would in the process, they were trying to make them to accept the philosophy of the Iranians. That's one faction that does one faction is another faction, this is the Saudis are helping them. They'll want to make them to think as they are thinking, another section is held by Pakistanis, or Pakistanis, what you notice is, look, when everything is over, we want you to become one with us. So all these are power politics, and the human being is in five times a day, they're all lining up together with no devil in between.
So now that the devil is there, we were talking about number one, getting rid of first was your racial and all the other prejudices, but now they still they breed together. But now, what happens? Is this, that in the end the loot, how are you going to share this? You know? How do you move this country? So the one is brainwashed to say that the ideal way of running this country is on a communist basis, with the followers ruling that the caste system it must be ceramic, the way the Iranian seat? that other guy said Oh, it will should be Islamic, but as the Pakistani sees it, so this is that human this thing and and the devil in between the somebody is running around trying to
see that they remain in this situation. And what are the plain simple rules of the Quran to correct that overnight? Well, number one, what the rule is go back to the book.
Go to the book, and the trouble with most people. Nobody really goes to the book.
thing I would like to ask you is
in this wonderful ended it and we're having fun here too.
But in this wonderful Islamic center
you are gentlemen
I see everybody here that I look at this is a male so far. Now, suppose you went home tonight, every one of these distinguished gentlemen, yes. And all of your daughters chose this day to tell you that they had decided to marry the Jewish boy down the street, or the Christian boy that was walking, right? Suppose that
I mean, any of these things, I don't have to elaborate further, young people.
Often they start all these things, and then how do you speak to them? When you say, look, the Jew is my brother, the Christian is my brother, but we don't get married. And then you come back to white doesn't want to marry black, and then everybody passes laws. So first of all Afghanistan, and they're all fighting each other, and secondly, intermarriage or what they decided, what if your son came home and said, I have been a good Muslim for 30 years, but suddenly, I have decided to become a Christian. I mean, so what do you say? Okay, your second question about marriage.
Islam tells us in detail, who we can and when we can't
really follow this biblical injection to the letter, where the Bible says that an idolatry or an idolatry is Thou shalt not marry.
Now we will uphold it. And idolatry. daughters, Thou shalt not marry. So my son falls in love with a Hindu girl.
My religion says, No, you can marry her, no matter how beautiful she is, no matter how much you lose.
What is it you can't marry? Not racially, with the Hindus, most of the Hindus, we are one language group. We have the same racial stock, we carry the same surnames, we enjoy the same dishes. But because of our religious
concept idea of God,
my religion says you can't marry and I don't, I don't address
I can. My religion allows me to marry a Christian woman or a Jew as it does allow you to allow yes, it does allow reason, the reason there is a reasoning behind it. He said, Look, we are so close. If I marry a Christian address, for example,
I will be the last man to say anything abusive about any of the Jewish heroes, Moses, David Solomon, Jesus, we have the highest respect for them. So this wife have managed us, she will be still at home with me. In other words, I respect Moses, I respect David Solomon, all the prophets, right? with her and reason with that is so cambia. Now come into the fold. You have been at a certain level of religious education, come two steps forward. One is to accept Jesus and then accept Muhammad as well. So I am asking her to come to a higher level of understanding religion, to the Christian woman in this country when I said that at first, that look, we are allowed to marry Christian women. So
the white men in the audience has been glued talks. They will say I yeah, I know why. So So why is it just because we are white. You think that marrying a white woman is a superior thing to do.
Even if the Christian woman is an African woman, she is hot and taught, she is a Bushman, she is Christian I can marry because again, we are so close. We accept Jesus, as one of the mightiest messengers of God, we accept him as the Messiah. We accept his miraculous birth, we accept as many miracles, the only point of real difference between me and my spouse, that Christian lady would be that I would say, Look, he is not God. He is not the Son of God. But everything else. We have a common denominator, we have one with a Jew, we have a common denominator the Christian.
So we said, we can get them in easily they can be absorbed in the house of Islam. Because whatever you believe, we believe, plus a step further. But now my daughter can't marry a Hindu man, nor can she marry a Jew, nor can she marry a Christian. Now the Hindu is understood being an idol worship and but now is what about the Jew and the Christian? I can marry a Jewish and I can marry a Christian woman. Why can't my daughter marry a Jew or a Christian? No, no, the reason is that you see the Christian
husband of my daughter, he's got more respect for me.
He's gonna use an offensive language. He's gonna say mama is an imposter. Why? Because that's, that's his training. Because as soon as you say, as soon as you say that you accept Muhammad as a prophet, the other Muslim.
You see, when you say you, as you, you will say, look, great man. Everybody says he was a mighty man. You know, he created a nation, an empire and religion. He I'm supposed to have left behind the book. Like the Quran says
Look, I think of my head to the man is great. And so many people say he was one of the greatest men that ever lived. Michael H. Hart in his top 100 he put Muhammad number one, yes, Jews muscleman you know in his book on the history of men in the top 100, then Jews muscleman in the history of work is just great leaders and lamartine in his history of the Turks. He says the greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and outstanding results are the three criteria of human greatness who could dare to compare any great men in modern history with Muhammad, his daring people bring your candidates. So in other words, now, from that point of view, the Christian the Westerner will be prepared to
concede that moment was a great match. But he was an imposter.
In other words, he was not he was a false prophet. So that's the biggest barrier. Because if you accept that he was also a prophet, Prophet means that God chose him. He got choose Muhammad nama tells you that the flesh of the sign that shall not eat.
Now you can say, look, I like pork chops. In all my life, I've been enjoying it.
This man is a prophet of God, and is authorized by God to tell you now, don't intubate, don't drink alcohol, no promiscuous, don't dance or quarter date, women. So it every step now, if you believe in this man, that he is a prophet of God, you have to listen to him is not just a word thing. I believe he's a prophet, he means nothing. When you say he is a prophet of God, what does it imply? It means that he is chosen by God, that it is chosen by God, to guide you, to tell you now, according to your capacity, now that you are not to touch alcohol, you're not to take interest, you're not whatever he tells you, it becomes binding on you, which you are not prepared to accept. Who did you are the
Mr. de da, I have to last time I was really afraid to bring these things up. Because you seem to me a very holy man, and I respect you for that. But sir, there are just too many things. I mean, everybody is so human. And you must know that there are people of great Islamic tradition, particularly we see them in Geneva, it just happens to be a place where many come who do not observe one single one hardly of the things you said, and they're pretty famous Islamic people. And then they go back home, and they put on the rayment. Or they they respect the things only at a certain period in time. Now, I'm not saying that you have a monopoly on the hypocrites, because Christianity
is absolutely full of them. And I suppose every other religion is too. But you know what, what God says and does, and what prophets say and do is so far from from the least of these thy brethren, that sometimes it really seems hopeless, including for the Muslims, if you excuse me for saying so? No, I would say that look, no, no community,
in his right mind can claim to be perfect.
We all have our black sheep, whether you are a Jew or a Christian, Hindu or Muslim, we all have our shortcomings. But
he wrote the book, the messenger.
In that book, he says that there are many professing Christians in the world, then professing Muslims, ethic. But he says he continues, but they are not practicing Muslims in the world and practicing Christians.
And if you had come here, this morning, say before 12, around one o'clock, I could have taken you to the mosque.
And of course, today, it would have been out to us today was Friday. And on Fridays, there's no place even for us and the mosque, this mosque next door to us here. It holds 4000 people on Fridays, but any ordinary day, any weekday. If you come there, you find that there's more than 1000 people in the middle of the day, more than 1000 people in the middle of the day, in the middle of the week,
which you will not find in the Catholic Cathedral on Sunday.
So is that what is it? How does it work? So, as far as the practice of religion is concerned, we have our hypocrites, we have a black sheep. But on a percentage basis, there's not another community religious community on Earth, another community, which is as responsive to the religious injection as the Muslim with all of our shortcomings. Whatever you describe in Geneva, it we can also describe anywhere else in London or New York or anywhere. Yes, I accept.
But says I mean we are not perfect examples of whatever our religion but as a people as a whole. Now, when you judge you judge a system according to the whole that in South Africa, we are boasting and nobody
contradicted me that in South Africa, we have the lowest alcohol consumption in the country.
We have the lowest gambling rate in the country, we have the lowest divorce rate in the country, we have the lowest prison rate in the country. And we have the lowest suicide rate in the country and the highest charity rate in the country. And nobody has been able to contradict me. So in other words, what does it
everything else is the same? What does it in this environment know is the teaching because the Muslim is being programmed five times a day, so to say, when he goes for prayer, he's being programmed, he's being programmed. So he's the least racist. I can't say he's free from racism. We are pure angels. But he is the least racist. He is alcohol, he is the lowest in everything else is the lowest and in charity rate is the highest. What does it is a programming because there is a system, Islam gives you a system, that bringing people together, bringing people that doesn't eliminate in all our sequences, because it's the type of programming that you're gonna receive.
And it's only the superficial contact with religion, which is creating this superficial. Now in the Christian community, the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Mormon community are used in, they have the same attention to no alcohol and a very healthy eating, and to the proper diet and all the rest of the things. And they practice more. And they're used in medical experiments, people go to test hearts and what have you, because they know that they are far more faithful practices of religious interdictions and members of other communities. And that is, it's obviously, a tremendous plus. But coming back, we have, I think that the smallest of the community that does that, because the
community is so small, yes, sex, sex, sex, so they can keep together, keep together keep on inspiring one another brainwashing one another. But as soon as the thing gets big, like you say, the Roman Catholic Church is it gets unwieldy the Anglican Church gets unwieldy is the numbers and accounts, the bigger the number, the less cohesive the community will be true, but you are, how many 100 years later you have extended is 600 years after. So perhaps it could be it could be projected, or suggested that in Islam, you've got 600 more years to go before even Islam will start to be it could be the same as these other religions, which get a little bit watered down. Which brings me
back if I make just two points, we have 12 minutes to go in. I'd like for you to finish about that. You said the daughters could not marry outside for the but the sun's could drop off except to Jews and Christians. Yeah. Okay, the good woman among them. And so then I would like to know about the children, if you married a Muslim lady. And I mean, if you excuse me, if you marry a Christian, how does Mohammed teach about the children of those marriages? And then after that, I would like to know about what the religion says about converting about becoming missionaries for Islam, as the Christians have become missionaries. If you can speak to those two points. You see, with regards to
you want to know what happens. What does Mohammed teach about the children of these in the house of Islam, the children are automatically the fathers, they follow the father's religion.
So you know, there was no, it was, it's understood at the back of the mind that if I even marry a dress, I'm going to try and convert her and every Muslim in the family. everybody's interested. So why, what's wrong? Why don't you become Muslim? Married Christian, everybody, you know, my family and my father, you know, my brother, my mother, everybody is and the neighbors, everybody is keep
eating the life out of the person. Why, what's wrong? What's wrong, Mary? You know, why don't you become Muslim? So, you know, that that is the attitude of the Muslim was to bring them in, bring them in and convert the children automatically, they will be following the Muslim religion. In the house of Islam, it was never expected that we will be in a state of minority anywhere at anytime, you know, the attitude should be that we should the religious religion, as preached by God
Automatically, automatically will all become Muslim. So as settlers, you're following the same rules and regulations. That is the idea. But now, in Western society, it is not so. So there is a danger. I'm a Christian lady, and I have a few children. But in case a marriage breaks up, it can marriage, marriage can break up between a Pakistani and Pakistani. So the Anasazi will be more reasons why you should break up
Between a person from another culture and another religion, there are more chances that the marriage is not absolute. So if that happens now, according to the Western law, the woman takes the children with her.
motherhood mother, so my children are born. So my vitamins and my fatty jazz and my Muhammad are going to church. Because now suppose now you with that lady, and you go back, where do you go to your Auntie's, and your grannies and your aunties and grandmas are going to church. So you take my children along with you. So over a period of a boy brainwash into Christianity, so the dangers are so great that says, look, although there is a scope for marrying Jews and Christians, I am always telling to people, so please don't take a chance. Don't tempt Providence, you say you're playing with fire, you know, this is going to come as a big surprise to you. But the Christians are saying
the same thing to their children. And so the Jews
were is an act of self preservation. You make it law, the Roman Catholic makes a law. I'm not opposed to that. What I'm saying is that, look, Islam is the religion that is destined to be the final religion of mankind reason you see is the latest, and it caters for all your problems. That's what I said at the beginning.
For example, you are an American. And you
know, I just come from America.
And I came across certain statistics that are in America today. 7.8 million, 7.8 million more women than men. If more women than men, if every man in america got married, there still be 7.8 million women will be sitting on the shelf, waiting for husbands with the navigate. Start to start with, as if nature is taking revenge on the west. giving you more women than men 7.8 million. And of the men power you have in that mighty nation. 25 million are sodomites gays, you call them gays 25 million another 25 million women who can get husbands? As I don't know how many million that is, but
10% is that 25? Yeah. 25 million sodomites. gays? Yes, then 98% of your prison population is men.
Then men gets cold feet for so many reasons. He wants to marry he wants to marry me to show him a bright, and he gets cold feet. For some reason. It doesn't tell us why. But he gets coffee. he backs up. But a woman even if she's frigid. She wouldn't mind somebody giving her protection and marriage. And a marriage of convenience. Maybe in this feed me closed me house means I give in to the man for his pleasures. But she's prepared to marry even if we do, generally will. She doesn't mind getting a husband but the man he gets problems after problems. And he's not sure of himself. So now, with that amount of surplus women in America, what happens? What is the answer? What did the Holy Ghost
because the Christian say is that Jesus is promising the Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit to come along and guide mankind into all truth. 2000 years have gone. So I'm asking what did the Holy Ghost tell any church in 2000 years? How To solve this problem of surplus women? Do you have more than that? They really women in America can get as much?
What do you do with them? Well, the feminist women would say who needs one.
And the traditional women would say that, if I can't speak for them, I can't speak for either group. But I would say that, frankly And truly, I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit draws if you are filled with the idea that the love of God shines out of you, that there will be some men someplace sometime under the grace of God who will be dropped, you know, men are not stupid, if they find a lovely lady, who is kind and who is loving and who is sweet, and who likes to create a good home and who wants to be a good mother and two is perfectly willing to love and to cherish and to revere that gentleman.
There will somehow this thing in itself will draw a male creature right. But now what about the 30 million? Suppose in a perfect with this all the men that are they were you know, we haven't discounted as sort of mites as prisoners and so on and so on. So they'll still be 30 million women. If all those men get married, they find that brides you know the ideal bride still will be 30 million woman who can get husbands well, very well. Through no through no choice of my own. I assure you, it was necessary that I become divorced. And this is against everything that I believe in as a Christian woman. However, in the years since
That I have lived with full of joy, in splendid isolation from the world of men in that way, although my work keeps me there all the time, there is a certain joy that in celibacy, there is a, an intensification of the Spirit, which is, I suppose, in Roman Catholicism, you talk about priests and nuns, I'm not sure about Islam, whether you have people who practice celibacy or not, but it is a very, very noble, holy and lovely, wonderful thing. And you simply live, what you feel that God's want you to do and what God wants you to be. And you can give back into the world a great deal of what you've received. I don't believe that this is a punishment, or that this is a sin or that it's
that much of a terrible move of the pies in the eating.
We find in Roman Catholicism, Moncure in memory in Islam is forbidden. No monks and nuns. Islam forbids you to do that. Because it's unnatural. Now, the proof that this is unnatural, you read the statistics today, how many percent of the priests who ligase
when you don't allow them the natural
release, then they're going to find unnatural ways? Salam eyes, how many sodomites? Are they in the Catholic Church in the Anglican Church? That is a proof that the system is not natural. You're gonna you're gonna do things which are unnatural. Then why in America, I was looking for Dr. Kinsey's book on the American female. You see, I had read it many years ago. Yes, Dr. Kinsey high level, the American female. And I wanted to have possess that book, because I had read it and it belonged to a doctor friend, I gave it to him. And since then I didn't see that book. I wanted Dr. Kinsey's, that's,
it didn't find that I went to most of the book shops in New York. And they say, well, it's on the computer, but it's they haven't got it in stock. It's on the computer, but it's not in stock, then I was forced to buy masters and Johnson's.
This is more up to date, version of Kinsey, masters and Johnson.
And what I read they,
you know, the American life, which is the same as the British life of sexology, or the German or the French, they all the same, might be one or 2% different between one and the other. But generally, whatever is happening in America, whatever the norms will be the norms of the Western nations in Europe. And I was actually horrified things I can tell my audiences anyway, Why are there no gays in Islam and are there Americans say that they would be?
visit this moon nation is an angel and the angelic nation, so we'll have our otters we'll have a black sheep. But now in the West, it is becoming the norm is the person if your son is gay, you're not ashamed of it anymore.
In the house of Islam, everybody is this is the most horrible things that in my son was now in conservative Christianity. It is an abomination that says it's biblical, right? This is a guy who preaches, you see, but now the guy was practicing it. Lego from swagger. All the televangelist look at this part out lately, one by one, a lot of them. Yes, sir. All leading unnatural lights.
Governor, Jim Becker, Jerry Falwell, I'm sorry. But that doesn't no matter where they did, the Bible still says it's an abomination. I know we accept that. But now saying is one thing. And the solution to that is in Jesus Christ, he said beautiful things, says, Do not look upon the woman to lust after.
Don't look to lust. What about beauty contest? What about lonely contests? We have in South Africa beachbum contest. I know. I said, Look, the Christian, he hears a sermon on Sunday, even the priest is suddenly asking you about Thou shalt not look upon a woman to lust. And yet in the evening, he's prepared to dance with his the wives of his congregation.
Tell us your solution to what you have described as the or shall we say Curse of America or this big problem and opportunity, I would say, you see God Almighty.
In his wisdom, he gave a solution to our problems. And we read this in the Bible, that almost every prophet of God had more than one wife. Abraham had three Solomon had 1000 wives and concubines 1000. David, his son, he had more than a dozen
in the time of Jesus, polygamy was practiced by the Jews. To see
they come to Jesus and the Jews had come to him.
The poser was brutal.
They were asking him he says Master, there was a woman among us who had seven husbands, according to Jewish practice,
that if one brother died and he left no offsprings behind them, the second brother will take a wife and try to I think they call it live right marriage. Yes. So according to that system, seven brothers, they went through this one woman,
one after another.
And in the end, the woman died and the seven brothers died.
So they came to ask Jesus, that while they were alive, there was no problem because it was one by one. But they want to know from him that at the resurrection, which guy is going to have her? Because they all had her? Yeah.
That means seven brothers had this one woman. Now we do not. We can't imagine that. among the Jews, the seven brothers were waiting in a queue for a brother who died, we were dealing with a woman, surely they had their own wives.
say they had their own wives. And they were trying to do the duty simultaneously to this woman, and they failed, and another brother failed and another faith, polygamy was practice in the whole Bible, there is not a single verse anywhere against polygamy. Jesus Christ never uttered a word about polygamy. Little wonder that he said, in my last interview, I told you that he said,
I have yet many things to say unto you, but he cannot be them now, how beat when he The Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth. All truth means all your all your problems solution to all your problems. And is this a defensive role, because the Prophet Mohammed had many wives, nor is this is the natural, this is a natural answer to a natural problem. We didn't create it. In America today. As I said, when I visited the country, I discovered that there were 7.8 million more women than men.
If every man in america got married, there still be 7.8 million women who can get husbands. And in the city of New York alone, there are 1 million more women than men.
In the city of New York alone, 1 million more women than men. If every man in New York gets married, still be a million woman who can get relevance is there is polygamy of practice here in this Islamic community? Hardly, hardly being practiced. It's what is hardly, hardly rarely is a real thing. But this is a solution to a problem. We are not offering this as a tonic to the world. You have a problem. Britain has a problem Europe, Germany has 5 million more women than men, Germany, in Britain, soon after the war. And reading that there were 1.6 million more women on the east coast of England alone
than men. You have a problem with the 7.8 million women in America without husbands, then of the males in New York, one minute, one third against sodomites. All right, then, in the whole country, 25 million sodomites gays. In other words, another 25 million woman who can get husbands
plus the soundpoint. Eight, you're another 25 million, then your prison population 98% of men.
Again, they're discounted, then telling you jokingly, but I think there's so many serious things I said in jest, that men get cold feet for so many reasons. I know. I've been trying to get guys married. And I know what happens. And everything is fine, fine, fine. His job and he wants to. And then at the last minute, the guy gets cold feet. He doesn't tell us why. Maybe at the back of the mind, he can't make the grade. He didn't make a fool of himself. So I find some excuse of getting out of it. So man,
so many reasons. But the woman, even if she's frigid, she'll want to have somebody to give her protection.
arrived here on the just before President declared speech, immediately read all of the newspapers and listen to the radio, the TV and what have you. And of course, one heard everything about the point of view of the ANC, which is a political organization UDF Pac, and one heard the point of view of the government. And this was in every front page everywhere. There was practically no mention whatsoever of the opinions of either the colored community, the Indian community, or the Islamic community and there may be others.
I could not find really almost even a reference to it. So my first question on this subject, where is the Islamic community in politics in South Africa today?
You see is moving
numerically numerically, the Muslim Council,
wisdoms count for nothing for nothing Oh is that so, because we are less than 2% of the total South African population.
And then this 2% less than 2% is divided in South Africa according to the
apartheid laws, we are divided into two major groups, one group is called Indian Muslim and the other is called colored Muslim. They say they have divided the Muslim again into two sections, that less than 2% is further divided by the laws of the country into two other goods. One is called colored, they call the Malays their colors, the goal is colored in this country according to this other human laws. And the other because most of us originated in India, Pakistan, we go as Indians. So, now as Indians, we are shunted together with the other Indians, see, who happened to be 80% of the population Indian population. So, the Indian is a minority. And in that minority, the Indian
Muslim is one fifth. It's a minority of a minority
in South Africa. So numerically, we don't count anything among a sample I mentioned you but that's one of the main reasons then the Malay is counted as a colored. So among the colored communities also a minority color is a minority is a bigger minority than the Indian there almost about 3 million
mixture between black and white. Among them, the Molly is also counted as a colored, but he's called melee. But Molly means is a colored Somali Muslim with a colored identity, when you just say color it alone is a Christian colored eyes and the Malay is a Malay talent. You know, for visually he's a colored, carries a colored identity card, but religiously, he is a Muslim, so they call him Malay, and the other Muslims here we call the Indians. So as such, now, the Malay will have to start voting, according to that colored group.
Whatever the routings are, you know, so they have this party and conservative party and National Party, so they start voting for them. And among the Indians, they have the solidarity party, and what all and by the way, they call them, they vote for that. So we know that there is no other way that we can make our presence felt that the Muslim, we believe that we have solution to the problems of South Africa.
Which way You see, when this an identical situation, that is prevailing South Africa at the moment, where there is a huge black power, and there is a huge white power, and they are in confrontation.
They both up play the game, I hope that you know something good comes out of this. There's some sincerity on both sides, and there is peace, because they both start going worrying, then the rest of the community via smart people will all get smashed in this battle of the Giants. But now the solution is an identical situation prevailed in Medina, when Muhammad went to Medina from Makkah, when he had to make his flight.
When he reached Medina, in Medina, there were two tribes, house and garage, these are the names and hydrides. And they also worry
like here, the black on black, the black men killing black men, because you know you belong to a different political party killing is going on continuously. Similar thing prevent among the Arabs, one tribe killing the members of the other tribe, over little, little things, until Mohammed said his sacred feet in Medina, and he offered them the book, The Quran. This is God's revelation to you. This is the rope of God, this is the rope of rescue. You hold this and we say, so the house accepted Islam and the Hydra accepted Islam, they held on to this rope and peace prevailed. So Islam has a solution to the problems of black and white. Because
this is only if there is a tug of war is getting one. What can we get? The white men when they get the maximum from the black men, and the black man wants to get the maximum from the white man. It's natural, but not to do justice.
You said you see both the people they need Islam, the African and the African. Because Islam is the only religion tells us is the look. We are all human beings from the same father
and a common form of worship that we get together in the house of Islam and you go even now that you find that the African Muslim, the Muslim Muslim is a color, the Indian Muslim and an occasional white Muslim. They're all praying together.
But that does not happen in the churches is the best Reformed Church. They have a Reformed Church for the whites separate for the Dutch Reformed Church for the current separate that Reformed Church for the Indian separate Reformed Church for the African
They're all divided. Do you have carry the same label? Same thing happens the Catholic Church, the musubi church is different from the Zulu Catholic Church, and is different from the colored Catholic church. And this is the general practice.
linguistically, they are separated. So still you feel that you are different from the other, in the house of Islam, wherever you come from, like when I come to Geneva, the last day, I'm at home,
the guy who might be leading us in prayer is an Arab. But it doesn't make any difference. I go to Nigeria, the African is leading me there. And in Tanzania, there's an African ima, it doesn't matter. Because the form of worship that I'm used to is the same whether I go to Indonesia,
or India, Pakistan, wherever I go, there is a common denominator, which Christendom cannot produce. There's no common denominator.
All right, in this, you are your vote at this point, then is not going to be that much significant. Significant. All right. So in what's going to happen, is there anything just to have one word of economics, whether there was still a free enterprise system, or whether it was nationalization and total socialization? with a slight communist overtone? Does that make any difference
to the Islamic population, it will make a big difference. And so what would you before because we'll go for free enterprise, because as it is now, you know, there was a time when even the young people had certain ideas about Russia. And we can see the whole thing has crumbled to pieces. Yes, because the thing is unnatural. Our wise men were telling us that this is unnatural, it can't stand, there is a law at work. And according to that law, this thing can last, it lasted a long time, 70 years. But after 70 years, that thing has to come to pieces. So it says now you have an example to go by. This was your goal, the only perfect example you had of communism is falling to pieces, China is
opening its doors. So now you want to experiment, again is the fool the man who wants to taste fire himself, he has to burn his finger to find out where the fire burns, he's a fool. I said, learn from other people's experiences, look at it, wherever they have practiced this communist system in in, in Mozambique. What has happened in Tanzania go and visit the place I will Yes, I did a bit I've been there twice in Tanzania. And I was telling that anybody who wants to opt for that system, give them a free ticket. The holiday is a go to Tanzania, and go spend three months and come back. And when you tell me what what type of system you want, whether it is Mandela, or anybody who talks about
that system, as is give them a free ticket to Tanzania.
And let them come back
with the economics and that's all we'll touch on that. So you this community would opt for the free enterprise system.
Groups of the UDF, A and C Do any of them have any particular
attitude toward Islam, that would compare for instance, I brought one of your folders here, there are some things that that you say about the the Zionists or the Jews, which are very, very, very strong. And before we speak about that, I would like to ask if there are any of these other groups or the Christian groups who say anything that strong against Islam in this country,
you see, there is like an unwritten policy of the discussion country, to see that you know, everything, as as difficult as it is possible for them to make for us.
But there is a freedom of religion in this country, which I have to take off my head, which is second to none in the world, freedom of religion.
Freedom of speech is a freedom of religion. As a young man, I was reading the communist constitution
article soon, so it tells us and I read it, and
that there is freedom of religious practices and anti religious propaganda and quoting, freedom of religious practices and anti religious propaganda. So I thought I look, we both have a fair chance.
But I didn't understand that. He says freedom of religious practices that freedom has given me but not to preach and, and anti religious propaganda. Well, the 4000 Muslims that one of the most for prayer, the guy outside can make a noise and say this
is how they pray. They can make a mockery of it. But I can't come out and say look, man, come inside. And I will tell you, you know how to get peace of the system that we are one sided, it's one sided, but in South Africa,
When they say this freedom of religion, they do really give it to us. In other words, I go to the city hall of Cape Town, which I did go to. And I organized a lecture there. Christianity, communism, or Islam, which has the answers to the problems of South Africa. And the city of Cape Town is a stone's throw from Parliament House, in Cape Town, and I delivered a lecture to a packed audience their
Christianity, communism, or Islam. And since the speaker is a Muslim, it's understood automatically that it is not Christianity, it is not communism, Islamic answer,
and more interference from the government, on any level, no interference, then we had a conflict with the government twice. Twice, we had a conflict with the government on our publications. One was in 1982, I published a pamphlet the claims of begging
can take it right. Malcolm begins his his crimes, crimes have begun. And that benefit the Jews had it brought up before the publication's born. And they had it that
we made representation, but our representation, I mean, I blamed my soldiers. You know, my lawyer, I lost the case. Then, the government that the Christians now this time, they took up another of my publication called crucifixion of crucifixion. It sounds the same, like a little is not crucifixion. The first is FX iron fiction to fix a man on the cost and kill and the other fiction is fit to fiction means a fairy tale?
Is it a fiction to fix and kill? Or is it a fiction if every day, that's the title of my book.
And some missionaries, they brought it to the attention of the publication for publication, the director of publication read it, and he directed his board in Pretoria. He is in Cape Town, he directs his board in Pretoria Sibanda book,
the board goes through the book. And they say, look, this is not very pleasant, we don't like this book is a very important book undermining of a foundation of our faith, which is the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Christ is the foundation. And this book undermines that is a very dangerous book. But it does not infringe any law.
So we can ban it. So the director of publication went on appeal against his own board.
This is something unique to me, it's a unique thing, in any country in the world, that that it's a band, that thing is bad. You can go and find it out afterwards, the director goes on appeal against his own board.
In that case, he's going to hire an advocate, to represent him against the board, to convince them that the book should be banned. So for the first time, the board informs us that look, this is what has transpired so far. If you want to defend your book, you come along and defended yourself, we will not play the devil's advocate on your behalf. So we went and defended our book, and we won the case against the government.
So to me, that is the freedom. If you can play the game, according to the rules
of the game of the game. There is nothing for you to worry about. Now, this is a very good entrance to what you've just described, that you held the crusade fiction. Yes. And you made your case which I believe when I read something about that, that Jesus appeared you you believe as dressed as the gardener when it said that the ladies thought he was
God was not Yes. And it goes on like that.
You have said that in the name of freedom of speech, even though that was an abomination to Christians, right. They allowed you and you won your case. May I move now to Rushdie. Right. And the fact that he has printed something which I assume I have never read it and I don't intend to it is equally as quotes insulting to the Islamic religion as that would be to the christian right. And yet he is under penalty of death.
And you are not under penalty of death. No for having said this. Could you lead us into this discussion using those two cases? You see now in the case the government says In my case about my book, that this is a bonafide a belief. I'm not trying to make a mockery of the Christian. So just I want to be funny. I want to be clever to say look, this is nonsense, man. How can one man you know take the sins of the world? You know, this is taking you to Christianity is taking 1000 million people for a ride on a cross. Yeah, I believe it right. But not that I'm making a mockery in this law in the country. You are not to sneer at somebody else's religion. What I was telling was that
Boehner feeder believed because my book says mama Cthulhu masala boo, which means they didn't kill him and they do crucify my books.
That this is my belief, a bona fide a belief, so as such now I'm expanding it. If it goes against you in that case, I just can't help it. This is the belief that's given to me by my faith and 1000 million people believe
in the case of rich D, it is not that. See, he has gone out of his way
to abuse everybody. Like for example, in South Africa, we had the book banned just like that. See, there is a law, the law is there. And according to that law, we succeeded. You are not to sneer at somebody else's belief. This guy here
the races, you know, our biggest problem is race. As I said in my previous interview, everywhere is a race. This man is the greatest racist. You know, he beats Hitler's main car.
We shoot to the director, look what this guy says. He says mega eat white man * is a writer.
This is not this is a valid criticism. He's a racist himself, but this is angry. Then he says black sheet is bad.
Equals amigas equals n equals m what and what not? Right? So this is not bendable. This is not right.
Then he's used certain type of language. One word in which we never reach us. For one word, Lady Chatterley's lover was banned in this country for 20 years. That word he uses 55 to 57 times in his book,
forgetting that his besmirching the characters of Islamic faith,
our spiritual mothers, the wives of the Prophet, the prophet himself, then the Prophet Abraham, and the companions of the perfect the thing that equals them is
what makes anybody's blood boil, especially the Muslim. But besides that, what he has done to everybody, the white man, the white woman, the Jews, he has not spayed anybody. But the problem with the people outside them. In the Western countries. Nobody brought this to the attention of the people. We only cried about ourselves with Luke, his former mother, who is Ayesha Siddiqa.
We wish she
knew she can see
she's dead. So how long 1400 years says Does it hurt?
The guys making a mockery of it.
This is a mockery not this this does it hurt.
Now you're making a mockery of it. But now if I turn the tables,
it would be different. I said, you know, sir,
until the people in Britain went around lecture to us, and telling them this is you know, what he says about Mrs. Margaret Thatcher?
What does he say?
So I said, Dude, he was a Porsche. Full stop. One word sentence torture. Then it says Maggie the Mitch. Maggie the bitch three word sentence. Maggie the bitch. As is right. You people should have gone to Mrs. Thatcher, and says ma with an open book, The Satanic Verses says Ma, look, this photo is calling you which is the right man.
But maybe you can take it. You know, you are creative. You are the lady. You know, today is nothing but whatever the feeling, the feelings of your DSN mark. somebody's calling himself a bitch. What about his feelings? What about your daughter, Carol?
What about her feelings? The book would have been bad. You know what he does with the queen? He cohabit with that in the book.
He makes tender love to her. And he joins me there. But Mr. Leader, if I may say so you see as a Christian, professing and believing Christianity and everyone connected with it have been reviled by so many people, so much literature and so many people in the world, that not only do we have mud of every kind of description in the world, thrown on Jesus Christ thrown on the church thrown on individual Christians, martyrs, anybody else, right? That it doesn't immediate, it's sheds off your back like water because you expect it of anyone for any reason that they choose. And the second thing is as Christians we are then called upon, no matter how vile the treatment to the Christian
religion or to the Christian himself, to arrive at the point where we can express total forgiveness for that person. Because if there is a God, who says,
Judge not lest ye be judged, even though we all do it every day. 25 times are called upon to rise above this and even to pray for that man, that God in his own wisdom and infinite way through the grace of the Holy Spirit will touch that and
And whether he's Islam or whether he's, whether it's Judaism or prod, that that person who is reviling, first of all, his reviling against us isn't going to hurt him. But when that guy gets in front of God Almighty, at least in the Christian religion, he is in far bigger trouble than anything we can do on earth. And even if we killed this man, and now I'm coming to you to the sentence of death, even if we killed this man,
in a sense, in a pure Christian sense, we are interfering with the law of God, because God Himself, in his infinite wisdom will judge you, even if rusty had done that. And if the book never got published, if he had written it in a closed room, and no one had ever read it, God himself would still be the judge of Mr. Rushdie. So having said that,
you appreciate what I mean, when I say as a Christian, it's very hard to get so worked up about it, it no matter how awful it is, when we've been experiencing that for 2000 years, you want to solve the Jews. Islam has said terrible things about the Jews that they've said it in your literature, that they are absolutely some of the things are agreeing now at the moment, the way they're behaving? So what's the Nazis? Some of the things you say about them are things the Nazi said about the Jews, if it is true. You see, if it is true, that they're doing the things worse than what the Nazis did. Then, if it's hurting the guy, be speaking the truth is the truth. That is the guy who
doesn't pay taxes in Palestine, in in Gaza and the West Bank. That person is thrown out of the house. They confiscate his property, and they bulldoze the house. Is there any country in the world that does that? If you don't pay that tax? They catch you and take you to date? Yes, are they but they bulldoze shacks in in townships. And people have not been there this you can you can pass their laws in the United States, if you
face no condemnation, or they, they condemned property, and
that is a different thing, then you compensate them. So look, this, this, this building we need. We want to demolish this. So we want to make a highway, I'm not for input for public this things. And look, here is a compensation for that. But this is the person who doesn't pay the tax, you kick his wife and children out, you take his fridges away. You just can't imagine. You break people's bones. I got films. I agree with that. All of that is terrible. When I tell you I said you are doing something worse than what the Nazis did to you. You should be the last people to behave like that. Because you went through hell. I sympathize with you. And now you are doing the same thing and worse
than the masses. So now if it hurts you, as is just too bad. But am I speaking the facts or lies? I give you proof from your own writers? Okay, but what about Islamic people? And I would bring up Christians, you know, who who have done terrorist acts and innocent people.
If you catch the terrorists, according to the rules of your country, you have every right to do what you like. If you say, look, there is no death penalty in Israel. There is no death penalty death penalty, right? No, it's not my fault. That's your law. But to me now, if that guy killed innocent children, if I catch him, I'll hang it.
If I do say no, there's no penalty. So what do you put him in like prison as soon as that's your business, that is your law. But that is not the law as given by God. The Law of God says life for life. But now we're coming back to roost. He said, That's Jewish law too.
So now, if you don't want to follow your law, that's your business. I can't force you to follow your law. But now we also have a law that for certain blasphemies against God and his messages, the punishment is death, by crucifixion, or by hanging, all by chopping off the hands and drill from opposite ends. Very cool. But now, precision, to as this is treason against the oma means the community, the religious community, you have a law, treason against the state, for which, you know, you have a Nuremberg Trial, you have not Whoa, whoa, you know that britisher was broadcasting from Berlin, you had him killed, that that Irish man, you know, who tried to, you know, create bring some
freedom for the that you had him hang or shot. So in other words, not every country in the world, you have a law, and you behave according to your law.
Now, in the case of this devil here,
he's broken all the laws, but I'm not crying about that. what I'm telling you is that the way to uproot the white man, the western is to show him where it hurts him. Because I am told, like you said, it's not that the people are insensitive. Look, you can sway Christ, and you can do this and do that and get away with it. No,
no, but, but, but there is a law of blasphemy in
England, married Mrs. Mary Whitehouse, you know, she took the gay magazine to court for using certain blasphemies against Jesus, and she won the case. But now there's nothing to protect the Muslim feelings is only Anglican England has got only it's something to protect the Anglican Christian, not as we are more there are Muslims in Britain than Methodist. But our feelings are not considered at all, as if we are human beings. So now I said that there's no sense in me crying about that. But you people, the Westerner is also sensitive when it hurts him, so I show you as well. He's not altogether insensitive about religious matters, the bulk of the people are religious. So he's
only named a Christian you only for fill census forms, mostly you see at a Christian, but in the hearts of heart, you're not a Christian, you are a Christian in the sense that you are not a Muslim, you're not a Jew. In that sense. You are a Christian, but in your hearts and mind. It has nothing to do with your practical life. Generally, this is what I see. So now I'm gonna show you where it hurts you. So I'm showing you a salute up but I highly sensitive people.
Because there might be a way also saying these British are insensitive as they are not insensitive. You try and say certain things about them, and they'll pick your jaw for you. Don't try. But you have to tell him why isn't
open the book. The very first page, the very first page of Satanic Verses he calls London is I was in the City of London in the Royal Albert Hall. So I think that most of you are Londoners. Whether you're a Pakistani London or a Sikh London or an English Londoner, you are all Londoners. This Yes, we have London, as he called you, London has Boston's first page.
If you're anything, of course you feel it.
You are talking different, you are personally involved. And now he's tells you, you bastard. You feel something that people say they feel it. In America, when I'm telling the afro American it says nigga eat white man *.
As you feel everything does Yes. He calls you Coons he calls you.
Do you feel anything? He said yes.
While I landed there in America, the same day. I by the USA Today. And what I find that in Houston.
Mr. Westmoreland is is somebody like a gentleman, General Westmoreland. This man is like a mayor of Houston. So there was a discussion about this fellow
that fly American who went to utopia and the plane fell for the United Nations. And he died. Yes, yes, I remember he remembered him. So now they want to rename the Houston airport after his name, Leland, Leland Hill. So they want to make it Leland international introduced an international. So this man Westmoreland said Why not call it nigger international and the old Afro Americans? Well, they should have exquisite bad manners often do what is they call nuclear? And I laugh it off.
So they call you nigger. This is a lavadoras something serious? They call you Uncle Tom says no something serious. I didn't call you Uncle Tom. So what you become Uncle Tom? It depends on the person. The one on the receiving end? How does he feel? So when I'm presenting to this guy called you such and such, how do you feel? Because you Americans, I did not say what equals America.
You see what he calls the British that everybody hates the Americans, everyone even
though you know that the Old World Aids but if I use that word, you see if it was your son, though he's been religion, he might punch me on the jaw. Do you know what they say about this program? The people that don't like it, they call
but now personally see is my personal impersonal thing that programmers is rubbish and like this and like that, people can say anything about comedy that you but when it comes to something personal, talking about your mother, talking about your wife, your sister, your daughter. Then the man reacts. And if he punches you in the jaw, he's justified. You see, so now I only have to remind the British, this is what this guy says about you, sir. This is what he says you're American. This is what he says about you, sir. And everywhere. I went around there 100% behind me, this is not this is not done. This is not done. I agree. It's not done. So that is the guy who doesn't care that the guy
must pay the price. So I said look, maybe maybe you see now you are you have cultivated yourself in that type of mentality. I've heard so much things thrown at you. So like here now. Call me
coolie is an insert Are you saying cooly cooly. cooly means a laborer. Yeah, I like it. Like the Chinese.
The Indians were brought here for indentured laborers cutting sugar good. So they call them we call them cooling. But I saw I didn't know how to have that the Indian becomes a coolie
every Indian. So there was a time when I used to react. But now I reached a stage now, where I said, you have also seen a bit cleverness, you're also coolly into labor, as well. That's what it means. You're a laborer. But I know he says Cooley is trying to hurt me. And then it hurts. You see, the word itself is nothing like the English man, cause the African in South Africa, Buddha. Buddha means a farm. They are family people as a whole. There's nothing wrong with that. But when the Englishman says the back of his mind is backward, elastic, that's what he's saying. Never as simple as that.
That's what he's saying. This is bura well, meaning the meaning of the word there is nothing wrong with the word. But when you are patterning it, it's conveys certain meanings. Same thing to the African. He calls the English people ruining,
ruining ruining rednecks. Oh, Roy, Roy, okay, read in Africans, it means rednecks, meaning that or softies you go in the sand a little and you get red in the red, like the red Indians called you. pale face to face, and you call them red Indians. Right? I don't know whether there's any sting in the in the word pale face, but not in this word. But in the word remake, there is a stain. In the word Buddha there is a stain in the word coolie there is a stain. Not because there is a sting in it is still it hurts that because there is this thing when you added it. You want to hurt me, so it hurts me. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt. That's a philosophy.
Look, it's true. It's a philosophy. But even so, you know, I'm the people call wasps you know, white, Anglo Saxon Protestant. I'm a wasp, right? And everything about the wasps is bad, they stain they do all this business, everything is bad. Now if I spent the rest of my life huddled in a corner, crying or afraid to walk out, because God warned me, right, a white Anglo Saxon Protestant, right, I would never go out, I wouldn't do anything. I can still love the people who don't like the program, and who call me a wasp. And I don't like older white ladies, or whatever you call, or call me a prude, or call me there are 1000 bad words you could apply to me, I'm quite sure. But I simply
must feel and think of myself as much as I can live it as a child of God, who is trying the best I can with all of my faults to live as I believe that God made me to live and love my fellow man and if they sling filth and mud and and I've had in justices inside my family, outside my family, in my work in my business, but I must forget and forgive as fast as possible. Do you not feel that? That? That the Mohammed, God as the Mohammed ins, Muslims, Muslims see him? Yes. And experience Him? Would he not have forgiveness in his heart and soul? Oh, I'm not calling forgiveness for God. We can forgive him he likes.
But now without the law. You see, we say we have no right to forgive. For example, a man commits murder.
I like that follow. I'm a judge. I like that murder, for some reason, previous reason, my contact with the man. But now the evidence that is brought before me is that cold blooded murder, the man committed
must have passed judgment on whether or not you see I am the servant of the law. The law, the law, I must carry of the law. I love the man. But I can't help it. He can be my son. I can't help it. You have to apply I have to apply the law. Now God Almighty in his wisdom, he can forgive. That's his business. He can reward him a million fold on the other side. So look, I think you were a bit harshly treated my son You know, you deserve heavens and who is and gardens flowing with milk and honey. That's his business. But men construction is the law of the land says should be shot
is not for me to see this guy do so many hospitals and he's been running orphanages, these he committed or not see what is the law the law says should so now I carry out the law.
See and all those people in South Africa have people outside the country who committed treason and they committed murder. The the Afrikaners or the white South Africans have a
Hip squad of some kind.
And those men committed murder right now, would you under the laws of Islam? Would they all be put to death? Or would one side be forgiven and the other side not be forgiven? Or would they all be amnesty? I think you see, because to me, if I look at it that this was a war and declared war between the two, yes. So SS To me, this was war. And now we have come to this war has come to a halt. He says forget about the past. And let's reconstruct the country with on a new principle of forgiving forget
about both sides.
Well, if I said if you if you have to punish the one side, you must punish the other side. And there is no end to it. There won't be any end to that. So recrimination carries on and it can still lead to further bloodshed.
So with the let's assume for mine, this is assumption I'm not making accurate let's assume that there were x numbers of murders committed on the outside revolutionary side at X number of murders committed on the inside white Police Squad. Everybody should be equal and they should all do this forget about the thing and carry on from here but Mr. Rushdie should be executed on his his different case altogether, because now he is not repentant apart. He is going on further and further. He wants to broadcast this further, more and more. This is good again. You see 40 people have already paid with the lives 14 Muslims have died. So many women have been widowed so many
children often because of his pin poison panel, how I didn't know that. How do they in India, in Pakistan, you didn't hear about the protests, marches. And they were shut down, because now they are marching on to the British Embassy or the marching on to the American Embassy. So the government is forced to stop it. And the guys are worked. They want to go in March and lay the protest. So they shot by their own governments, but 40 people have given their lives for this one man's minister. Okay, but look at all the hundreds of people that gave their lives on both sides for the ANC. And I'm just using that as an example. It could be the others too. And the flight hit squad. The women
and children in sort of the Muslims have died. Yeah, Bruce Lee. He's in safety is enjoying having a jolly good time
with his millions.
And he's unrepentant. He said, Look, he has done something that is right. So this guy is more dangerous than it was armies. We have been visiting today with shake out hash Ahmed deedat, President of the Islamic navigation center international in Durban, South Africa on the 16th day of February 1990. Thank you. I'm sure we could go on for another hour or two with all of the things that we have. But thank you, Mr. deedat. For the time.