Sequel To Christ In Islam Studio Debate
Channel: Ahmed Deedat
File Size: 27.13MB
On the 23rd of August 1983, Mr. Alfred D dad gave a talk in the city hall. This talk was entitled Christ in Islam. Now, people from many different religions and faiths were in the audience of the city hall that evening. Some agreed, some disagreed. Although there was a question time after the talk, a lot of questions still remain to be asked in the eyes of many people. And today in the studio, we have to born again Christians who would like to talk to Mr. De Bez. on that subject. I'd like to introduce you to first of all, Mrs. Irene Malan, who is a housewife, and a very staunch Christian. Good morning. I'd also like to introduce you to Mr. Jonathan Leach, who is a minister in
the Christian church. Hello, I greet you in the name of Jesus who has risen from the dead.
Introduce your course to Mr. Martinez, who is the head of the Devon office of the Islamic Propagation center. I deem it a privilege.
If I can remove any misgivings of my president this morning, on the subject of Christ in Islam. First of all, I feel if I may ask you, do you feel that the statements that you made on the 23rd of August this year are correct, and you still stand by I still stand by each and every statement I have made? Thank you.
First of all, before we move on, do you have a general comment you'd like to make? Irene?
Yes, I do. I would like to say that the Jesus that is referred to in the Quran, we do not believe to be the Jesus that we believe in in the Bible.
Thank you. And Jonathan,
what I see on the notice the subject is Christ in Islam. And I believe that Christ is not in Islam.
Thank you. Can we move on to the first question or the first point that we're going to discuss, please, Jonathan?
Well, it was a two hour meeting. And so all we can do is major on one or two significant facts. And the first issue we would like to raise with you I've met is that you said categorically there was no statement in the Quran, with which a Christian could take exception. And we want to take total exception to the references to Jesus in the Quran. We don't believe that the Christian Jesus and the Islamic Jesus have anything in common.
He's spoken off,
as Edna Maria, son of Mary, as mercy, the Messiah, Christ, as Rasulullah, messenger of God, Abdullah, servant of God,
as the Spirit of God, as the Word of God as the sign of God. These are all the respectable terms applied to this mighty messenger.
There is not a single statement in this vast volume, which one of the most jaundiced of Christians would take exception to.
And in the index, you'll find the subject Jesus and the J on page 137.
Jesus righteous Prophet, chapter six, verse 85. His birth is described in two places, he is apostle to Israel, his disciples taken up like Adam, nor crucified, no more than a pasta, not God, sent with gospel, not Son of God, and on and on and on.
Well, over to you, Jonathan. Well, it's a delight to share our faith in Jesus as
as God manifests in the flesh, and for the Quran to state that Jesus is not God and not crucified. And not the Son of God totally contradicts your earlier statement that Christians could not take exception to anything written in the Quran. Because the Christian faith centers on the person of Jesus as the Son of God, as God, the sun, revealed in the flesh, part of the Godhead, himself. And in his humanity, it centers on his death, His atoning death, the shedding of his blood as a sacrificial lamb, in terms of his humanity, and his resurrection from the dead. And therefore, in various writings in the Quran, as I read here, so rightly pointed out, there is a clear distinction
that the Jesus of Islam is totally different from the Christian Jesus.
we are fortunate in this age, that we had this gadget the videotape with your machine, what we saw there was
me expressing the noble manner in which Jesus Christ have spoken of in the Holy Quran.
If I can remember
myself saying that Jesus is spoken of in the Quran, as the son of Mary
The Word of God, as the Spirit of God is the messenger of God, and on and on. And in that context regarding the person and personality of Jesus, I was talking about it, there is not a single statement that the most jaundiced of Christians can take exception to. I was not talking about dogmas, or teachings of the church, I was talking about Jesus.
If you remember, what you saw, and what you heard,
it was about his person.
What I heard you say, and maybe we need to rerun it, if I heard you wrong, is that there was no statement in that one statement in the Quran to which a Christian could take exception. And that earlier, I think a mentally afflicted Christians could take exception. The statements that we have seen in the Quran, say that Jesus is not God. And we say that Jesus is God. They say that he was not crucified. And we say that he was crucified, and has risen from the dead to justify us from all our sins. And we say that he is the Son of God. And you showed that in the Quran, the Quran says that he's not the Son of God. And therefore, in terms of your statement, that there's not one statement
in the Quran to which a Christian could take exception, we have shown you that as Christians, we totally reject the Jesus of the Quran. I don't blame you for doing that, Jonathan.
Because you are watching that video
with emotions, you will not listening to what I was saying. And in what context I said that, because this index that we had reproduced, from which you are taking exception to, in the part of my talk, I mentioned that there are 15 different chapters in which Jesus Christ is mentioned, and is spoken off. And we will not dealing with those 15 different chapters, but the different aspects of the differences between Islam and Christianity, with regards to what you say, is divinity, with regards to what you say, crucifixion, and all that we have your Trinity. Now, Islam and Christianity at at various on these points, they are not what they are. But what I was talking about was that this man,
Jesus, what, personally what is spoken of in the Quran, as about regarding his birth, regarding his miracles, regarding the status which he holds in the house of Islam. In that context, there is not a single statement
regarding Jesus, his person and his personality, not a single statement, to which the most jaundiced of Christians can take exception to and I still stand by that. If we are going to talk about dogmas, say what you believe that I believe there are different things altogether. And if you want to discuss different aspects, I was thinking that we're going to discuss what I had spoken about precisely because I didn't speak on the subject of crucifixion. In the top of mine, I didn't speak about divinity, except in passing to say that look, what can make him call or the Son of God, literally. So the thing that I have mentioned spoken of during the two hours that you have been
talking about, that is performance two hours, what did I say that you can take exception to? And I can try to satisfy you. You're actually asking for specifics.
I would like to say here that all we are not right in saying that what we have just seen from your program,
as coming from the Quran, which is that Jesus was not crucified. Jesus is not gone, statements that we have spoken about No,
that's very statements you have said that we cannot contradict.
Now, this is precisely what we're talking about, is that you have made statements in the Quran. And you have said that we cannot deny
anything that the Quran states concerning Jesus Christ that those statements in themselves, denied the very person and you cannot separate the relation of the dogma with the name Jesus, you cannot separate what Jesus has done for humanity. You cannot put him alone and say that the things that he came to do are divorced from his personality.
I think we are at variance here.
From what we have seen what I was talking about in the context of my talk. It is the attributes of Jesus I was speaking about his person, his birth, their nobility, the manner in which he treated his mother was respectful to his mother. And like I was comparing contrasting with the Christian scriptures, where he seems insulting to his mother, calling a woman What have I to do with you? Whereas the Holy Quran says, He says, God has made me kind to my mother and not overbearing or miserable like
calling people you hypocrites, your generation of wipers, your whited sepulchres. Nothing like that needs to be found in the Holy Quran. So this is what I was referring to that in the person and personality of Jesus, there is not the most jaundiced of Christians, he can take exception to, I think not in the context of the whole Koran, that he says the use, he says is gone. He said, He's not God, of course, you can take exception to that. You believe in a tribal God is no God is absolute one, he is not one in three or three in one, you can take exception to that you say he was crucified, they say he was not crucified. Now, all these are two different subjects, and I deal with
them differently. When I go to the city hall, I speak about was Christ crucified, then I deal only with resurrection.
The Truth About the atonement, I speak only about the atonement, whether it's true or false. The Truth About Trinity has been only about the Trinity, whether it's true or false. So that means that each and every subject that I touch, an item I touch from the index that you show me, it is a subject by itself. Here was Christ in Islam, that this is what we think of Jesus, in the house of Israel. Now, if I said anything about Christ there, which is insulting to Christ, this is what I said, you can take exception to anything of it, I think you and I have coming to a point of agreement, because you are identifying the divergence of conviction about Jesus of Nazareth. And as
long as we are very clear about those divergences, then we will certainly be in agreement. What I want to come back to, and I'm quite sure all the viewers and listeners to the video will, will recognize that you made a categorical absolute statement, you said there is not one word in this holy book to which even a jaundiced Christian can take exception. And we have been pointing out those specific words to which we do take exception. And now you're admitting that we can take exception to them. So in a sense, you have qualified your statement, and we are very happy with our qualification.
This trouble has ended and because when you watch that film, you were emotionally watching it, and you had listened to it carefully in the context, you will have found that there would have been no reason to, you know, go into this explanation.
I would like to say something here, I think it is not right for you to say that we were emotionally watching it. Because you have made yourself a judge of how we watched it. You are not accurate in saying that we emotionally watched it. And that is why we came to the conclusions we came to
Texas for the viewer to judge. That's right. They have seen they have seen the video. That's right. And they've heard my statement and have heard your let's leave it to them. Let's leave it later that
what we're discussing there is almost personalities. In fact, I think if anything we should try and steer away from in the discussion on day.
You if I understand you correctly believes that the Christ of the Quran is a totally different Christ from the Christ in the Bible. Can you embroider a little bit on that? Yes. Now, we'll move on, I think into further points as you'll be looking at the birth to which you made reference and to the miracles to which you made reference. But I'm warming to you. Because I believe you and I are seeing things much more eye to eye than I thought we did that there is a very little truth, common truth in terms of the person of Jesus, that as you were pointing out on your video, that the Jesus the Islamic Quranic Jesus is a totally different being from the, the Jesus of the Christian faith.
And what I said was, I think that Jesus is a new blood in a sublime of personality, in the Quran, then the Christian scriptures, well, that is a statement to which we must object because if Jesus is God, as we know him to be, there is no one nobler or more sublime. In the Quranic scriptures. Jesus is not a mere Prophet, however godly, but in the Christian scriptures, he's the revelation of God Himself. And no one is more no more noble and sublime that we wish to declare in terms of your reference. I mean, you may not have spoken specifically about the crucifixion. But on the videotape, a reference was made to that page, and on the video that I watched of that meeting, that page page,
Is it 98 or 97, where these words were, were put on the screen, they were put forward again in his context, if you listen carefully, this is on page 1837. And the J you will find Jesus and in that sense, now, the holes all the contents was given to you. Not that we are dealing with each and every, every item, that there is an index in that this is how, in so many places is broken.
But we were still dealing with Christ in Islam. Yes, we're not any other subject at that meeting? Or was it understand that the Christ in Islam, the Christ, that Islam is not God, the Christ in His love is not crucified and risen through Christ and Islam is not the Son of God through and therefore the class in Islam is not the Christ of Christian scripture and Christian faith, or Christian belief, I would say rather,
because there are things now that I can also explain from the scriptures, that the things that you are talking about that his divinity is dead is dead. This is none of you have misread
the statement that he had made. So in other words, Jesus Christ in his lifetime, he didn't make any such claim today to say that I am God, or worship me. And in that top of mind, I was challenging the people I said, Look, there is not a single unequivocal state statement. Where this claim is to be found an epi vocal means to say that I am God or worship me. And I was challenging my audience, that if you can produce any such verse in the SR 66 books of the Protestants, or 73 of the Roman Catholics, I am prepared to accept that offer is still open to you. Rather, I'd like to answer that challenge. Because throughout Christian history and throughout the Christian church, there are many
different emphases and many different perspectives
in terms of peripheral understanding, but the central revelation, and I say revelation, the central revelation, in the Christian church down throughout the ages, of all different streams and
emphasis, there is no doubt whatsoever about the deity of Jesus, I believe we can overcome this problem. If we recognize that the Christian scriptures indicate that the revelation of Jesus as the revelation of the deity of Jesus, in the Holy Scriptures, is not mere rational deduction. No one can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. And if our gospel is hidden, it is hidden to them that are lost, and whom the god of this world has blinded the minds of them that believe not, lest they should believe. And let me just give you one scripture, but the whole of the Scriptures to the Christian spirit is a clear declaration of the deity of Jesus. And Romans chapter eight, verse seven
says that the carnal mind is not subject to the Word of God is hostile and unable to receive it. So the fact that to the Christian throughout the ages, the revelation of the deity of Jesus is is obvious, is counterbalanced. The Scriptures warned that the unbeliever will not see it, and your inability to see it
emphasizes that truth. Now, let me just try one scripture on you. And you will find a way of rationalizing rounded because the revelation of the spirit is not there. In john chapter five, for example, we read in verse 23, in order that all may under the sun, even as they honor the Father, He who does not under the sun, does not honor the Father, to the Christian, that is not a debatable issue. That is a revelation of the equality of the son with the Father, as in Philippians, chapter two, equality with God was not to be grasped, but he divested himself and became a man. Now you're a theologian, and you know these truths, but the
the carnal mind, which is unable to receive the revelation of the deity of Jesus Christ has to find a rational explanation. But I want to submit respectfully for this, that non Christian would dream of interpreting Quranic scripture, Islamic scripture,
as over against the teachings of Islam, and therefore in the same light, we are not going to submit to any as an Islamic interpretation of Christian scripture. It is for Christian teachers under the anointing of the Holy Spirit to interpret Christian scripture, Jonathan,
you see, you have escaped the Simple English word that I used as an unequivocal
as if there is not a single unequivocal statement and repeating what Jesus says, and God already says, worship me. Now you have been reading the words of john, I said, Jesus, what Jesus says, makes this claim. So you presuppose that the person must have some kind of this different feeling. You know, being born again, having the Spirit in you only then is entitled to see and read.
I feel that you are free condemning the man's approach.
The book, because you're learning men, they tell us that is the plain reading of Scripture makes common sense. Seek no other sense.
And that is exactly what I want you to do. And I would like to do myself simple statements, women says, and God must be God. He says worship mean, you deserve to be worship, not your interpretation or my interpretation. What does the book say this scripture, because you are giving the impression as if Christian was unanimous, in what you're talking about, absolutely unanimous about the dead battery that, you know, the Nicene Creed in the year 325. And Constantine,
it was by a show of hands, democratically, it was the only God who was democratically democratically appointed was Jesus Christ. That means they were the show of hands and according to the show of hands, they voted in favor of one second, Constantine Martin wanted them to believe, but they have been religious persecution on the grounds of the deity of Christ. For the past 2000 years, millions have been massacred for that you have today even the Jehovah's Witnesses,
they are Christians. They don't agree. They say that questions, the christadelphians. They say they are Christian, they don't agree with you, the Unitarians, they say they're Christian, they don't agree with you. And the common man, when I meet the common man, the ordinary man, the man in the street, when I asked him, pointedly, do you believe that Jesus Christ is God incarnate? Is No, no, he's the son of God.
I hardly find a person who's prepared to Allah, and say that the Almighty God came down to earth, in the form of a man he was incarnated into flesh, and in the form of Jesus Christ. But I do know that the born again Christians, they make such claims. But I said, Look, let us go back to the Scripture. The Jehovah's Witness, say, go back to the Scripture, the seven Day Adventists and go back to the Scripture. And I'm sure
the, the right, right attitude should be that you and I, we should go back to the Scripture, show me a verse, a statement made by Jesus, where he says, I'm God, and that we should worship him
at this point.
And I'm going to speak now, just scripture, the fact that Jesus existed, he existed before he became a man. Jesus is the name that was given to him when he was incarnate, around as a man he was named Jesus existed before he became a man written in my code, chapter five, verses one and two. Again, Jesus speaks of himself as existing before Abraham and before the world was created, which is to be found in john chapter eight, verse 58. Also in 17, Jun 17, verse five. Also in john five, verse 24.
He has spoken of as the creator and upholder of all things, which is in Colossians, five, verse 15, to 17. In Hebrews one, verse 123. We also say in the book of Genesis, that God speaks about creating, when he speaks about creating, he says, Let us create, then we go into New Testament teaching, and we find that New Testament refers to Jesus as the creator and upholder of all things. So scripture has now spoken. Marine. Thank you, sir. Before we go on, I think we have quite a few topics to discuss today in this very short one hour discussion.
Do you feel Jonathan and Irene that Akron has answered some of your questions? Or do you feel used to not got the answers on this particular topic? I'm very satisfied that we have established the divide between us. Right? Well, at that point, then is can I ask you, would you like to give just a brief overview and then if we can move on to the next topic? What I feel is that my brother and my sister,
they don't seem to be understanding my English.
Because I'm repeating again and again, a single statement made by Jesus, I am God are worshipping
sisters, quoting collisions, coding Hebrews. So who are these? Who is Hebrew and who is collusions? This is this is Paul. This is Paul. I am speaking about Jesus. What did he say to make me to believe that He is God and the wretched worship is not coming forward? either. They don't understand my English as an epi vocal. They don't understand English as a single statement made by Jesus.
They don't seem to understand my English. I don't know how we can proceed. Okay.
Other business units say that, look, we haven't got any such statement. Frankly, you haven't bought it. But now we have this, what have you to say about that? We have this, what have you to say about that, and I'll be happy to deal with it. Like you said in the book of Genesis, God speaking, he says, Let us create this as in the Trinitarian. Christians, mine stands for Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Nice if you don't know,
Arabic and Hebrew, as well as every Eastern language, has two types of fluids, they have a pool of numbers, and then a pool of respect.
that is the Hebrew word, you know, in his approval of respecting Hebrew, because no Jew for 4000 years, you know, did they ever believe that the God Almighty was Father, Son and Holy Ghost, or father Moses and somebody else, they addressed this concept, when they said arrow m. v understood the one and only God in the Holy Quran, same Semitic language, Hebrew and Arabic sister languages. It speaks in
masala secara. Allah Hafiz. That is for us to send them the revelation and it is for us to protect it.
asking, Who is this as? Whether it is Muhammad, God, Almighty Muhammad am the Holy Ghost, the Gabriel, or anything else? No, no is God Almighty himself. But who is this as he says, look, in our language, we have two types of plurals. This is a plural of respect, like in royal proclamations. So I can explain verse by verse, if you put it to me is what have you to say of this, but I still stand that there is not a single unequivocal statement where Jesus says, and God or witnesses worship Me, on the contrary, he says, My father is greater than I, my father is greater than Paul, he said, I cannot do nothing. As I hear, I judge and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will.
But the will of Him they sent me said that they know what no man, no, not the angels know the son, but the Father in heaven. No. Equation service got nowhere. And I still stand by that. Yes, do you know why? Because when he came here, he came for a purpose, which was to take upon himself, the body of men in order to go through what men goes through in order to lay his life down, for the sins of mankind to redeem him from such. Now he emptied himself of his divinity of His deity, to take upon himself the body of men, scriptures revealed to us which I have read to you that he was before he became men. The Scriptures revealed to us in john as well that he was with God, He was God, and that
he came here to take upon himself flesh or run. Now what the point I'm making is that Jesus did not claim to be God when he came here to be men. But he was day a tea and his day. Sorry, sorry, why weren't we must move on? I think we can go on to the next subject now. And we can continue on that basis. Yeah. Jonathan, can I hand it over to you to introduce the next sentence? I think it goes on because we're going to look at your statements about the birth of Jesus. Yes. Which again, hinges again, on the issue of the day it I believe that Irene has given you a specific scripture in showing that Jesus showed by saying that before Abraham was I am therefore and in using the I am he you did
the Yaqui. Galloway name, the name of God Himself, which is a play on words in a measure
that there is a clear and categorical unequivocal statement to his pre existence. Right now. You may have seen before we go on, let me just have a look at that sequence. And we can discuss it based on what we've seen.
Yes, I wonder whether we could look at the sequence to do with the birth of Jesus. All right, because that is going to be very helpful. Let's have a look at that. Now.
In the Holy Quran, the same thing is being spoken. But
the language is tada Ameren, whenever he decrees a matter for in Amaya kulula kokoon. Fire Kuhn he merely says we be entities for God to create, he merely wills it and the thing comes into being it is not necessary for the Holy Ghost or anybody to come upon Mary or overshadow her.
and the eminent Billingham some years ago in Kings Park, I was there is my secretary, Mr. banker, then we were there. And he dramatize this birth of Jesus. He said in the Holy Ghost, amen impregnated Mary. This is how he did it.
The Holy Quran says for God to create the music. And the thing comes into play. Jonathan, your questions face
up. And this is
a very good point you are making about the birth of Jesus,
as you so clearly demonstrated the Islamic faith, exactly the Islamic religion
sees Jesus as a creature, a created being. Whereas the Christian revelation, which is open only to those who received that revelation to the Holy Spirit, is that Jesus is forgotten. And you made that very clear. And I think that's a very wise of you to make it very clear that the difference between Islam and the Christian faith, the Christian revelation, is Islam sees Jesus as a creature created by the divine fear of God, as I think you've made it. so clear. And I think that's a good way of understanding how Adam was made.
Whereas the Christian revelation, which is open only to those who through the Holy Spirit, have a understand that the scripture says the Lord He is God. And no one can say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit. And you said in 40 years, you have never heard anyone explain the difference between being forgotten of God and created. And I want to and you're 40 years in the wilderness now
explain to you that the garden means exactly and precisely what it says, be gotten fathered, conceived of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was, indeed, as man born of the Spirit born of the Father, big gotten not made. And I'm so glad you made that distinction, because it is central to the Christian faith, and it actually establishes his deity, that what is forgotten of God is God, and what is created of God is not God. And that is why the deity of Jesus Christ is revealed in his birth.
That just as you so eloquently quoted, Billy Graham saying that the Holy Spirit overshadowed the Virgin Mary. And and, and you seem to think that someone was upset by the idea that, that the Father sired Jesus. Well, I had not upset by that at all. It's absolutely scriptural. And therefore, I want to ask you, to confirm, as I think you have so eloquently said on the, on the videotape, that the distinction between the Islamic religion and the Christian faith, the Christian revelation, is that the Jesus of the Quran is a creature created by Almighty God, whereas the Jesus of the Christian revelation is the garden of God is a manifestation of God in the flesh. And we say, therefore, that
Jesus, just as Billy Graham
pointed out, was born as a result of the impregnation by the spirit of the Virgin Mary. And as Irene Milan pointed out in our earlier on, we have therefore Jesus fully man, and fully God. Now to an unbeliever like yourself, we do not expect that to make sense, unless the Holy Spirit gives the revelation because no one will say Jesus is Lord, but by the Spirit. You see this expression we can't.
JOHN 316 I take it you have it in your American Standard.
But the RSV You said you don't use it
to yourself, but Christian scholars 32 scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating denominations, I don't know with us, since you do not need to belong to any German nation. They went in produced this book and the
testimonies, the phrases, that which are being heaped upon this translation
by Anglican Church newspaper,
Church of England newspaper says that this is the final version, which has been produced in the present century.
times literary supplement says a completely fresh Translation by scholars of the highest eminence, life will work says the well loved characteristics of the Authorized Version combined with a new accuracy of translation. And the time says, the most accurate and close rendering of the original. They are claiming that this translation goes to the most ancient manuscripts. And in john 316, they have eliminated the word cotton, because they say these are defects in your present scriptures.
Especially based on Jerome's Latin vulgate, the King James Version, we offer authors here 32 scholars of the highest eminence, backed by 50 cooperating
denominations. They say that the King James Version used by a billion Christians today in different different languages, King James Version. So yeah, the King James version has grave defects. By the middle of the 19th century, the development of Biblical Studies, and the discovery of many manuscripts more ancient than those upon which the King James version was based, made it manifest, that these defects are so many so serious as to call for revision. So they revised it, that is what the RSV is 1952 and the word be gotten there throughout as a fabrication interpolation, it was a fabrication. So if this was inspired by God, if God said, I have gotten a son, it would be
something. But since it was interpolation, His work of people, you know, with vested interest, like you would use this Bible at all, because if that it won't suit you, whatever you are out to preach, it hasn't got it. The ascension is taken out, there was on the Trinity is taken out. And they still remain those many defects. See the grave defects is this new certification. So this would be gotten is a defect and they took it out
yesterday that if we were going to base our belief on one word, we would be a lost people.
There are many other scriptures, which I can quote in which I've quoted you.
If you could one at a time like this now, the word because when we're discussing, so look, this would be gotten, you have to tell me now that these 32 scholars of the Christian Bible, were not scholars
that they were laypeople, or barbels shoemakers, that they went and produced this book, this 50 denominations that you don't belong to that. But those 50 dimensions are all hidden, or they're unbelievers. They went and produced this book, and they made they sold millions of this, and they made a net profit of 11 to 15 million on this book alone. Now I quote, from this book, yes, the doctrine of the Forgotten Son of God, from the Scripture, all right,
the Word of God.
The RSD, I do think it's an anterior translation. That is when you put your faith and I quote, I didn't This is your church that have produced
0.42, what Angel did God ever say, Thou art my Son, today, I have big gotten the order again, I will be to Him a father, he shall be to me a son. In verse seven of the angels, he says, Who makes his angels winds, and his servants flames of fire, fire, but of the sun, he says, Thy throne of God is forever and ever.
Now, was this quotation taken from Hebrews chapter, quoting Psalms, right? So we go to the bulk of songs.
And we find that this was attributed to David, gods or multispeed. David, is that I will declare a decree and to be
the Tao as my son, this day ever do what
God is speaking to David this day means today, I have brought you into being because
when did God Almighty tell Jesus that I had forgotten you today? In the canonical gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, is there a single statement, voice heard from heaven? God saying that I have forgotten you today? No, but this is what we read in the book of Psalms, and God had spoken those words to David. Now, if you take them out from there, and you apply them, as Paul has done, to make God out of Jesus, well, that is his business. But what I'm saying is this, that Jesus Christ, there is not. It's an amazing thing, that you are not quoting me a single word of Jesus, whatever you are out to prove, there is not one word. I'm hearing that Jesus said this or Jesus or that
you're quoting a call again, and again, you could he's quoting scripture from the Old Testament. And so when you get it on the very face of it is not talking about Jesus is talking about David. After that point, perhaps we can move on to the next topic and see if we can progress from there. All right. The next one, please join us in
point that you made,
which is of lesser significance, but we need to look at it again, because it does
Slide one from the birth of Jesus.
And it refers to your description
of the first miracle,
the first miracle that Jesus did, and then the turning of the water into wine according to John's Gospel, and you make the point in your talk.
And again, I'm glad that you make the distinction because I'm interested in the distinctions
the Jesus of the Quran speaks to his mother, and that the Jesus had drowned has not turned the water into why, in fact, you make a reference in your talk that because Jesus turned water into wine in the Christian revelation,
the wine has been flowing like water through the Christian church ever since and has not had a Christian Christian Christendom. And you make an inference that Jesus is therefore responsible for alcoholism. Again, I beg your pardon, I never made
me look at the sequence before we continue discuss now please Thank you.
And he has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable.
He has made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable. This is the first miracle that Jesus Christ performed. According to this holy book of Islam.
He defended his mother against an unbelieving audience, as an infant from his mother's arms.
I want you to compare this first miracle of Jesus with the first miracle that Jesus Christ performed, according to the Holy Bible.
You know what miracle he performed. It was at the marriage feast at Cana, you read in the Gospel of St. JOHN,
the Jesus and his disciples had gone there. And they ran short of wine,
So his mother comes to him. This is my son, knowing that he's got that mysterious powers, God had given him powers, spiritual powers, that he can perform miracles. So she comes to him, he says, My child, these people have run out of wine, do something for them.
So Jesus responds, is a woman, woman, what have I to do with the My time is not yet.
But persuaded, he turns water into wine. And since then, wine has flowed like water in Christendom.
our beautiful country, our good people spend 2000 million Rand on alcohol.
Last year, our good people spent 2000 million Rand on gambling.
The first miracle, Jonathan,
we're here again, I think we can see we're talking about two totally different Christ's. And
one thing that you did refer to in your talk was the difference between the first miracle of the Islamic Jesus being
being utterances as a as an infant, and the first miracle of
the Lord Jesus as according to the Gospel of St. JOHN being the turning of the water into wine. And the inference i thought was inescapable. Having referred to Jesus as having turned the water into wine, you then started to talk about
alcoholism and the excess expenditure of people on why. And the only inference I could draw from that was that that was Jesus's fault.
No, I was not insinuating any such thing. But since Christianity doesn't forbid,
the drinking of alcohol,
a lever has been made. Christians are asking, posing the question when we tell them that they shouldn't drink a problem that didn't create this look, I will not turn water into wine. He was not a killjoy. So what it was good enough for our Lord is good enough for us. This is the logic.
Now we will lose what we say is that, under the circumstances, if these things did happen, we are not blaming Jesus for it. But the time was not right for him to introduce prohibition, which he left to somebody else. And this isn't the Gospel of St. JOHN, Chapter 16 said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot bear them now. How beat when he The Spirit of Truth is come, He will guide you into all truth.
Now we say that that spirit of truth is Muhammad, and he has guided mankind into all truth with every problem affecting mankind. Muhammad will deliver the answers
Problem of race, he does the answer problem of alcoholism he do the answer gambling he gives the answer fortunetelling he gives the answer surplus women's he gives the answer, divorce he gives the answer. So every problem with which men can is confronted today, we said you will find that they find fulfillment in the teachings of Muhammad, as prophesied by Jesus Christ. So, but Christian, then because they stick behind 2000 years, at least 600 years before Islam, they stick by that. So the problems are the nuances there
that Jesus had known he was you have divorced by the millions.
He turned water into wine. And since then, as I say, our country 2000 million last year they spend on alcohol hadn't been if you had been listening to his,
his intention, look for this person, is it the spirit of truth, He will guide you. And if you look for him, and if he start reasoning, and we find that Muhammad is such a person, he will glorify me, he will testify of me, he will be witness of me. The only one who did all these things, is Mohammed, read the Quran. He tells you, his birth, we Muslims, we have no hesitation in confirming that he was born miraculously. What meanings you give to it, we're going to have discussion, differences, once a very great practice. But
the fundamental that he was born miraculously, instead of insinuating, we could have done it. Mama didn't tell us this. You could have said man, they jokingly remarked about your sister coming along, telling about a dream, in which now she's not getting a date. Would you believe her? In the absence of your father for a long time? Your mother says no, she's carrying a baby. She had a dream of your father, would you believe? No. So in other words, how would we believe this is 2000 years ago that she heard voices, and she's carried a child on the testimonial hammock 1000 million Muslims. We agree on the point that he was born miraculous, that he was the Messiah, that he gave life to the
dead by God's permission. He was born when the little by God's permission. So in other words, it makes us respectful towards his mighty messenger of God. Muhammad testified and we glorify Jesus presupposition.
I think it's very interesting that you have identified the spirit of truth as the Prophet Muhammad is that right? Now, in Christian revelation, the Spirit of Truth is God, the Holy Spirit, and he will lead us into all truth. And that's where we defer most emphatically, again, because your spirit of truth is the Prophet Muhammad. And we believe him to be a false prophet, and asked her the truth is none other than God, the Holy Spirit of Truth to whom Jesus bore witness, and the distinction between the Prophet Mohammed and his prohibitions. And the Spirit of Truth, which is the Spirit of God is the distinction between prohibition on the one hand, and self control on the other. And that
is why the Christian virtue is not so much submitting to legalistic traditions, but walking in the Spirit of self control. And that's a very important distinction. It is very nice and easy
to make flowery statements about the spirit that is working within you and voluntary control, but we see it doesn't happen in humanity. In South Africa, a few 100,000, white alcoholics, whites
among the colors, which are Christians, you see the Malaysian Muslim colored, and identity you get is the color is a Christian colored five times the amount of alcoholics as any other reason the country of the Indian than the Africans, we have no statistics.
Now, had it been that if you had stood by the legalistic, as you say, revolution, as Jesus Christ spoke in so many things, legalistically he spoke about divorce legalistically, he spoke about adultery, had he the opportunity and if the disciples had the capacity to receive the message, he said, I have yet many things to say unto you, but you cannot pay them now means you haven't got the capacity for that reason I'm leaving to somebody else. If that Holy Spirit is the Holy Ghost in 2000 years, I have been asked in 2000 years, this Holy Ghost has not given you a single new thing.
Jesus said, I have yet many, many in English means more than one or all through means more than one. I am asking all churches and denominations I've been asking posing this question to perhaps you as a born again, Christian, you might be able to supply the answer. That awkward he said.
In 2000 years, I'm asking this Holy Spirit to any church. Give me one new truth
that Jesus Christ was not able to give in so many different words, one new, I'm asking I haven't seen it yet. simple word of that is that the Holy Spirit came after Jesus had ascended and revealed to the disciples the whole truth of the birth life death rate.
Ascension King, the reign and return of Jesus that only the Holy Spirit can reveal that to a darkened heart. I'm in
this place. And I would like to say that there's a difference between just the world in general. And one who is walking in the laws and statutes of God is brought about by Jesus Christ, in the power of the Holy Spirit. I am a living example. And I'm not the only one, as you might well have heard today, there are millions around the world have BORN AGAIN believers who have a real relationship with the Messiah, Jesus Christ, in a salvation capacity. He says in his word, that he shall write his laws upon our hearts, and the holy spirit shall lead us and guide us into all truth. So in my life, in particular, I have had a drastic change brought about from my relationship with Jesus
Christ. Before I had that written, living relationship, I was just such a one as those in the world that were drinking, smoking, and doing whatever I saw fit in my own sight. But when I came into the living reality of the Lord Jesus Christ is given to us in john chapter three, that no man shall enter the kingdom of God, lest he be born again by the Spirit of God. When that took place in mind, life, living reality, you said, you haven't seen anyone that these things have happened to this happened in my life, where his lows were instantly implanted into my life by His Spirit, alcoholism fell away, smoking, fell away, lies, cheating, deceit, all those things fell away. And I became a
living example of the power of the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.
I didn't say that I didn't come across a single Christian who would be you know, a good example of what a good Muslim or good Christian would be. But this ball again,
elitism that you're talking about? See, when you look at in the world today, you're talking about millions America claims according to Billy Graham in his book, how to be reborn. See there are 17 million born again Christians in America 70 million that's about one third yet in that nation in June
300,000 sodomites they can for instance, San Francisco on a pilgrimage led by 50 lesbians and motorcycles in this country which claims to be a Christian country at Buffalo only yesterday was a few weeks ago in Buffalo outside Port Elizabeth
these Christian women absolutely naked with be blessed not system they differentiate was organized by a Christian society that buffalo rally soco,
Christians they call themselves and they had this woman having intercourse with black men in public This was videotaped which you can buy today because it's censored. So I said look, a system that can say half a dozen here and there are 70 million as they claim in America.
It's a good system that if you can save a few, but a system which stops you from being in front, can you see each and every bone again that I meet? He's telling me he's confessing that he was a drunk and he was an adulterer is just to speak the heart and on and on. Not one of them said, Look, this system saved me.
As a Muslim, I can say, and the millions of Muslim can say that, look, we don't have alcohol. Because my system prohibits it. I haven't touched it. I will know what it tastes like. And I'm not likely to touch it. Because my system says no, the biggest Society of shooters in the world are the Muslims. Simply because straightforward. directly. We were told, don't touch alcohol. We don't touch. Don't gamble, we gamble. Don't Dance, we don't dance. So in other words, a system that can stop you from falling into the mire is a better system than a system that extra tissue sandwiches you wish were salvaged as a congratulations to you. You're also salvaged as you say you're born
again. I say congratulations to you is a lot right. But I said the system that stops you from falling into that my app is a better system than the one that allows you to win Mr. data at this point if you want to speak with that tone. I actually know a lot of Muslims I've been to Israel and I know a lot who partake of alcohol. So the basis that you're speaking on,
you know, it doesn't really make sense because we are claiming something which you yourself are claiming you're claiming it from the legalistic point of view that you are told not to do. We're claiming it from
spiritual point of view that God gives us the ability not to do so. And we have also differentiated, which you've avoided now, in the fact that there are differences in Christianity the same as the differences you would say in Islam, those that are totally devoted and those who are not. In Christianity, there's only one that is called a Christian by Almighty God. And that one is the one who has become born again by the Spirit of the Living God, through the blood of Jesus Christ that has been shed on the cross for him to save him from those sins, all else that you might might look at speaking about buffalo rallies, and the rest of them. Those are what I have come out of. Those
are the people that Jesus Christ came to save. He said, I've not come to save those that are well, but those that need a physician, those are the ones that he wants to save our interest of, at that point in time is drawing to a close. I want to thank all of you very much for speaking today. cadenas. Jonathan Leach. I mean, Malan, thank you very much indeed, before we close totally, can I just ask that each of you give us one minute and I asked please, only one minute in summary of today's talk? I mean, can I ask you to talk first, please?
Well, I would say that, apart from all the differences that be
whether it be differences of translation, or whether it be differences of this debt, and the other, there is a thread that works its way through the entire Christian field. And that is the thread of the blood of Jesus Christ, which has been shared for us, and which is there for the whosoever will. Thank you, Irene. Jonathan, I want to close with a verse and I'm going to finish in 60 seconds.
You wanted a verse from Jesus? He said to them, then how does David in the spirit call him Lord saying, The Lord said to my Lord, Sit at my right hand, until I put down enemies beneath my feet? If David then calls him, Lord, how is he his son? And no one was able to answer him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day on asking him another question. And I made when you understand the answer to that question, you two on there, that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, and I'm not saved by a system. I'm saved by a person and he is Jesus, the Son of God.
They say, Jonathan, you read Scripture, which needs discussion. You speak about Jesus sitting on the right hand of God. And God Almighty has made him to sit there for 2000 years. What is he doing is waiting for his enemies to be made his footstool? Can you imagine the scene for 2000 years this poor man is sitting there waiting for his enemies to be made a footstool for him, and who are his enemies, the Jews. They are sitting there, you know, in the Middle East, they still deny Jesus Christ in the whole world. They deny Jesus and the poor Jesus for 2000 years. He has not reached that yet. Let me quote, an end with a scripture, the words of Jesus himself. He says,
Verily, verily, I say unto you, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness, righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, he shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Muslims, we stand by that, that you, the Christians, his followers, you must be better than the Jew. Otherwise, there's no heaven for you. This shortcut of blood is something that is taken in its origin. Thank you. Thank you.
Absolute novice in religion, I make no attempt to summarize the discussion today myself. I leave that to you, the viewer. Thank you.