Abdurraheem Green – What is Intrinsic Motivation
AI: Summary ©
The importance of understanding the meaning of Islam and the differences between universal message and the world is emphasized. The speaker emphasizes the need for a clear public statement to achieve excellence in life and to find oneself accountable. The importance of creating a clear public statement and finding oneself accountable is also emphasized. The speaker also discusses the importance of empowering individuals in pursuing one's interests and building a culture of peer.AI: Transcript ©
Welcome
to this live stream. Today, we're going to
be discussing
intrinsic motivation. Sheikh Green, how are you doing?
So happy the sun is out. The sun
is shining.
It's warming up
after a long, cold winter.
Blessings.
Indeed.
So, Sheikh,
one of the things I was thinking about,
I've been doing a lot of
listening and research on motivation in general,
And it's a hot topic. You have a
willpower course,
which obviously is linked to motivation as well.
So this is obviously something you've been looking
at maybe for a decade or longer. Right?
Yeah. Would it be fair to say that
you
kind of
have chosen the best parts and just tried
to put that in your course and, you
know, just get to the meat of it?
I think so. I think I mean, to
be honest, willpower,
I think the whole topic of motivation in
a sense,
it's it's a sort of prequel
to willpower.
I guess willpower is more about
training yourself and developing good habits,
And it's almost
it's almost the whole idea of when you
develop your willpower,
in a sense,
it's that you don't constantly have to motivate
yourself. Habits
the beautiful thing about habits is that it
sort of bypasses the whole motivation,
thing.
It's just becomes something that becomes routine and
ingrained in your behavior that you don't need
to think about.
But it does share something, you know, good
habits or the habitual practices
does share something
with the
the whole theme of motivation, especially when we
talk about,
intrinsic motivation
or, you know, the motivation that comes just
from the
just the pleasure of doing something. Just you
know, you do something because it you enjoy
it, and it feels good.
And you don't care whether you get some
external reward. You don't care whether people praise
you. You don't care whether you get money
for it,
which is external motivation.
But the intrinsic or the internal when you're
internally motivated.
So that there is one thing that, I
guess, habits share in common,
and that is
both of them,
that they they don't involve a lot of
effort.
So the good thing about habits now it
may take a lot of effort to develop
habits, but once you've
once you're in the routine and once you
are
practicing and once you've got those habits and
you keep doing them, it's not a lot
of effort. That's the good thing about it.
It's just not so hard to keep it
going.
And the same I I and that's what
is,
in common with a person who's intrinsically
motivated. It's not a lot of hard work
because they really enjoy doing it. When you're
intrinsically motivated with something, you love doing it.
So, obviously, you know,
in an ideal world, you know, you would
feel intrinsically motivated about
doing everything, but, well, not really.
I think we actually from that perspective,
the ideal is already the way the way
Allah has already created it, to be honest,
because you don't want to feel you you
shouldn't actually be intrinsically motivated about everything. There
are some things that you it's just
you know, one of the things one of
the things I feel extremely suspicious about and
I know you sent me some links and
said, oh, watch these and see what you
think. So here's the problem. Right? A lot
of these guys
who use this
this whole field of psychological
you know, the
of this psychology
where they've looked into this whole aspect of
intrinsic motivation.
What do they use it for? They unfortunately
use it
to manipulate people into becoming even better corporate
slaves.
You know? So it's like, how can we
get our workers intrinsically motivated
so we can, you know, get more out
of them
and pay them less money. Yeah.
And the thing is the reality is is
that it's actually, fortunately,
I think, not that easy to get yourself
intrinsically
motivate
motivated about things that
you deep down inside know are worthless.
And, actually, very often, the things that people
are intrinsically motivated by,
are not things that are are automatically connected
with making money and,
you know, having a livelihood and so on
and so forth. And so one of the
reasons one of the things about intrinsic motivation,
one of the first principles that they talk
about about intrinsic motivation,
is autonomy.
So, you know, the the for for people
to feel intrinsically
motivated,
generally, they need to feel a sense of
autonomy. In in other words, you know, they're
doing this for themselves. They're not doing it
for someone else. They're not
controlled by someone else. They're not being manipulated
by someone else.
They're in other words, it's something that you
do yourself because you want to do it,
and how you do it, when you do
it,
it's really up to you. It's not dictated
by circumstances.
Yeah.
And and this is and people do it
usually because they love it. And this is,
by the way, what is really interesting. You
know, this whole thing that they say, do
what you love,
is actually can be problem. Yeah. There is
something in that.
If you really love something,
you will you will develop excellence in that
thing.
And your your your process of developing excellence
in that thing
will almost definitely
open up huge huge doors for you to
be able to make a living out of
it. Yeah. I mean, the most obvious things
that we you know, the most the things
that are obvious are like, you know, these
extreme these guys who,
you know, do extreme sports. Right? There's one
there's one legend in skiing called Shane McConkie.
Probably know it unless you're a skier. You've
never heard of it. But the guy is
he he produced this video called A Fistful
of Moguls. He was an extraordinary character. He
had a punk hairstyle. You know, one of
those Mohican, you know, brightly punked, you know,
brightly colored hairstyles.
The guy was like a
but, oh my god. The stuff that this
guy did, no one had ever seen anything
like it. He was doing stuff that is
so out there. So it wasn't about going
fast. It was just about
skiing really weird lines, like skiing things that
no one ever thought could even be done.
You know, going down 20 foot cliffs and
finding a little patch of snow to land
on and then jump down under the stuff
he did was incredible.
Still is.
But the guy was just like, you know,
like, it's it's not that he ever thought
he was gonna get money out of it.
He just did it because he loved it.
And that's the thing is that that that
motivation, that just desire to
push the boundaries to
excel in something, I guess we'd call it
we'd call it.
Right? I mean,
I think if you think about
if you think about intrinsic motivation,
it's very interesting. If you read about it,
quite often, they will bring up, you know,
people,
for example, volunteering for religious things, like, you
know, for church or whatever because it's a
very good example.
Generally, by and large,
religious things are very intrinsically motivated. People
commit themselves to it because
of how it makes them feel inside,
not because of any
external rewards like, you know, money or I
mean, especially these days, it's almost the opposite.
And, yeah, apart from a few evangelical groups
who make huge amounts of money, some pastors
make lots amount of money out of
religion, but by and large, no. Right? He
doesn't yeah. Go on. Yeah. I just wanna
prod you in a direction because you spoke
about money, and this brings me to something
I want you to sort of elaborate on
Yeah. About rewards and the process because,
you know, in your course and I'll put
the link there for anybody who's interested. I've
I really benefited from this course myself.
One of the things that you do is
you dispel the myth that dopamine is about
reward. It's about seeking. It's about motivation. It's
about having that drive.
So the actual reward is in the process
of going towards a goal as opposed to
reaching the goal.
So because you mentioned money Yeah. I I
thought that was interesting because,
in the same podcast I sent you, Sheikh,
there's a part in which they're talking about
video games and children playing video games
and how Yeah. They're loving it and enjoying
it. And when it's financially incentivized,
you know, they lose that motivation. Yep. Yep.
Very interesting. I I I was thinking about
this. Right?
So
this is something that's well known and well
understood
is that
when you give money when you when you
when you offer people,
external rewards for things that they are motivated
by in intrinsically,
they often lose interest.
But I think it's really quite simple to
explain that, and that is just the shift
of attention and focus.
The locus of what motivates you changes.
Right?
So you're not you know, so
intrinsic people who are doing things for intrinsic
motivation are doing they're doing it because they
love it, because it makes them feel good.
It interests them.
They have autonomy. They're achieving excellence. They look
at it as something that improves them and
makes them better as a human being.
Yeah.
And the problem is when you give people
money for that. Now not everyone is going
to
not everyone is gonna stop
feeling intrinsically motivated. Absolutely not.
The real problem is is when your when
your intention,
when your reason for doing it becomes
some external
reward,
and then that's when it's gonna change. That's
when you're not gonna love it anymore. That's
when you're not gonna like it anymore.
So it's fine. Someone like Shane McConkie can,
you know, could keep on skiing and doing
extraordinary things, and he's making money for it,
but he doesn't give he doesn't care about
the money. If he didn't have the money,
he'd keep doing it. The money is just
secondary.
The second the money is a secondary thing.
It is just a byproduct. He he doesn't
look at the money as
anything that is important to what he's doing.
So that's fine. If you're still intrinsically
motivated
and the money is just a byproduct that
just happens to come, you know, come your
way whether you do it or not,
then your motivation levels will still stay very
high. They won't be affected by, you know,
the income. Yeah. The problem is when it
becomes your job, when it becomes your means
of livelihood, when you start depending upon it,
and then when, you know, you start doing
stuff because, am I getting paid for it
now?
I'm gonna do this because
you know? And we can think of that.
Let's talk about it in terms of our
organization, for example, IHRA. Right? It'd be interesting
that, obviously, most people who give dua, most
people who go and invite people to Islam
are gonna be people they're gonna do it
out of intrinsic motivation.
They do it because they feel, fundamentally, this
is something worthwhile doing.
Most of them,
especially in the west, but I don't even
think in the west, in many places, they're
autonomous. They do it off their own back.
It's something they do themselves. No one's told
them to do this. Quite often, they do
it with a huge amount of sacrifice
for themselves, and they often have to organize
things themselves
so that autonomy is there.
And, obviously,
it fulfills the conditions of being extremely,
you know, satisfying, and you feel definitely you're
contributing to the well-being of groups of human
beings. So, you know, it it has all
of those essential qualities.
Now,
again, the the problem is is that if
you start paying people to give daw there's
obviously a question. Right?
Should you pay people to give daw? And,
essentially, well, probably no. You shouldn't,
because
if you're paying them to give dua
and their and their their pay is dependent
necessarily upon results, and then the better results
they get, the more pay they get, then
obviously their motivation
quite often will switch. It will switch from
being in, you know, intrinsic internally motivated
to be motivated by
some external rewards, and that's really not gonna
be a recipe for long term success. No.
Ultimately, yeah, it's not gonna be.
But that's different again from what I said
is that there are people who love it,
who are passionate about it, who are dedicated
to it, and
you you give them what they need to
be able to continue
doing that thing that they already love. Right?
So you're not gonna give them any more
rewards
necessarily or, you know, it's not gonna be
like a, you know, like a, you know,
like you could say a,
how do you say it? You know, you
know, a reward system
where, you know, the more Shahadas you get,
the more payment you get is is is
problematic from many different levels. But we're just
talking about motivation.
Yeah? It's not necessarily gonna be more motivating
for people.
And by the way,
I think the point that everyone listening,
should understand as well is that,
being motivated
internally,
intrinsically
is just way more healthier, is good for
your mental health, is better for your well-being,
you will feel more happy and complete and
fulfilled as a human being when you are
doing more things for which you feel intrinsically
motivated.
Yeah? So it's not just something, oh, you
know, like I said, absolutely no way
we should people should be thinking of using
this in order to manipulate people to get
more out of them for less money, which
is obviously what some of these, you know,
corporations, they will absolutely try to do that.
But but that's why you wanna be intrinsically
motivated. You want to be. And as for
you know, the the reality is what happens
is that when you shift your focus, when
you start doing things because you are getting
rewarded, you're getting because you get paid for
it, it's just not so enjoyable.
You don't feel
well, you don't feel so motivated.
You actually won't.
That's the reality. You think you might, and
it may work in the short term. It
may work temporarily.
It it may work very, very temporarily.
But most people would agree that there's nothing
deeply satisfying about receiving more money. There's nothing
deeply, intrinsically satisfying
about that.
Ultimately,
it's not really gonna be a source
of prolonged happiness.
So yeah. I mean, it's a very interesting
it's a very interesting subject, to be honest,
especially when it comes yeah. I wanted to
add something from the seerah, which I wanted
you to comment on.
So
one of the battles in which the prophet
participated,
it was the battle of Hunain. It was
a battle
which the Muslims got more war booty than
they had ever had. And remember, wealth back
then
was you know, if we were to put
into,
pounds or dollars, we're talking about 1,000,000. Right?
Mhmm. And what he did is his elite
Sahaba, the Ansar, he gave them nothing. Right?
But these people who were
not new Muslims
from Yeah. You know, recently
the conquest of Mecca, he gave them.
And to the kafar who were there to
soften them up to Islam, he gave them.
And then those
Sahaba close to him complained.
And you know, Sheikh, when you were talking,
it just reminded me of maybe the prophet
didn't want their intentions to be No. He
didn't. He said it clearly.
Alright. It's so interesting you mentioned this because
I was reading exactly about this the other
day.
And that's exactly right what you said.
He didn't. He said he knew that.
And here's the other interesting thing, Subbu. Tell
me what you think about it.
Is that sometimes you can extrinsically
motivate people
in order to get them intrinsically interested and
in intrinsically motivated in something. And this is
something else the prophet did.
So remember that incident when a man came
to the prophet asking him for something, and
he pointed to
the valley, the the hill, and he said,
take everything. It's all yours, all the sheep.
He went off with all of these sheep,
and he went back to his people.
And he said, oh, my people embrace Islam
because the prophet gives like he doesn't fear
poverty. Now it's interesting because I was,
going through this with my boys recently.
It's in, Re'ad al Salihim.
And, I think Imam Nawawi comments on it
or either or either that was in Sheikh
Adhimi's commentary,
where he said that this is what the
prophet would do. He knew that
sometimes he would motivate people externally, but he
knew that once they became Muslim,
once they accepted Islam,
their love for Islam, their commitment to Islam,
their love for the deen would take over.
So it's interesting that the prophet
was not averse to using some form
of extrinsic motivation
in order to get them into a
the system
or into the mode where once they tasted
it, once they tasted Islam, once they tasted
how sweet it was to pray and go
to the Masjid and to be a Muslim,
then the internal
intrinsic motivation would actually take over, and that
will become the most beloved thing to Islam
would become the most beloved thing to them.
That's
that's really something we should consider in the
Dua as well because sometimes when it comes
to non Muslims,
we want to just appeal to their,
you know,
their ideology, their religion. Yep. You know, talk
about, you know, God's existence, all of those
things. But sometimes it's about getting people into
lowering their guard lowering their guard. I remember
a conversation I had,
with one of the du'at.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. Yep. So one
of the duat,
Sheikh,
I took him to speaker's corner. He's from
Germany.
Yeah. And, he came down a few years
ago.
So,
I went to Speakers Corner, and as I
usually do, I'm just, you know, whatever, talking
to atheists and whatnot.
And, I remember
he came up and he's an experienced guy.
He's been giving Dua for years years years
years. So it's first time in London.
And he came across this lady, and instead
of telling her
she said she's an atheist. Instead of telling
her
why god exists
Yeah. He explained the benefits
to her personally in terms of her well-being
and mental health
by believing in God, telling her how happy
you would be. Right? And I thought that
was really interesting way of Mhmm. Inspiring the
conversation.
Absolutely. And,
again, you know, wanna you know, again, look
at the categories of zakah. It is permissible
to spend
zakah,
to soften people's hearts to Islam.
So and even our experience, Roe, in the
field,
our experience in the field is that often,
it is very important to
when we go and give dua to people,
to give them some food, to cook some
food for them.
Even in the Philippines, I remember often we
would bring the people at, the village, and
it was never connected. To be honest, we'd
never
connected to make it conditional
on people taking Shahada.
They would get this gift from us whether
they became Muslim or not, and it was
a gift for the whole village. I mean,
this is what they were doing in the
Philippines,
and, you know, they would take it in
turns. Everyone would have it, a turn having
the cow.
The cow would be able to have calves,
and they would have it for a certain
amount of period,
certain amount of time. And it didn't matter.
It was never conditional upon them being Muslim.
However, it's, again, one of those things that
soften people's hearts. Sometime a lot of the
time,
people,
they wanna know what's in it for me.
You know, what's it gonna do for me?
Like, it's all very well and it's not
a totally irrelevant question.
Yeah. It's not a totally irrelevant question. There
are some religions or some ways of life
that I think,
you know, they they they're almost parasitical
in the sense that they
their existence
lives off the back of other functioning
elements of society.
And this is one of the problems I
have with Buddhism,
for example,
is that Buddhism
relied
on the support. So it's very you know,
so in order in order to achieve and
this is from the from what I understand
from the very earliest days from I used
to follow a type of Buddhism.
So I think within
the, I think, the the followers, the I
mean, the immediate what you could call the
companions of Buddha, right, his actual followers, they
started
establishing these monasteries.
And but these monasteries needed
patronage. They needed support. They needed support from
their king.
So
they sold the I I don't I don't
wanna use, you know, I don't wanna use
inflammatory terms, but, you know, they they
their understanding
or the way they explained
is that the existence of these enlightened
individuals
amongst society was gonna benefit the whole of
society. So, therefore, it was really worth a
king or a ruler
supporting these institutions
because, ultimately, the benefit would be there for
everybody, which is fine. Right?
However,
it just seems supremely unpractical
that a system of achieving spiritual enlightenment
depends upon a group of other people never
being able to do that and having to
literally support you so you can sit in
a monastery
of, you know, of a way of life,
of a religion, of a spiritual path being
practical. It's one of the things that I
think is actually
makes the prophet Mohammed,
may god's peace and blessings be upon him,
the most extraordinary
figure in human history,
because
it is not necessarily
that you know, it's still amazing to be
a great general, to be a great conqueror,
to be a great emperor, right, to be
a great ruler,
to be a great king.
And it's
also something to be a great spiritual leader,
or a great philosopher.
But to combine those things, to manage to
be
a a a great ruler,
and also to be
a a great spiritual leader, it's very, very,
very rare in history
that against the prophet and I'm sure this
is true in other cultures as well,
is really criticisms based upon the fact that
they're practical things that any ruler would have
to do. If a king did that, they
would never criticize those things.
Right? Because they would understand, well, that's what
a king's gonna have to do. But no.
No. No. It's not appropriate for a religious
leader to do those things. But, actually, for
me, this is exactly what makes the prophet
a truly one of the things that makes
the prophet
amazing standout character
is that he is exemplary,
not only
in the spiritual fear
sphere, but also in, you know, that what
you could call the although it doesn't even
exist for us, the idea of a secular
and spiritual space
in the sense because that's one of the,
you know, hallmarks of Islam
is that everything comes under the purview of
the the the religious teachings.
But, yeah, anyway, it goes back to what
you're saying. Right? Sorry. I got diverted. But
the point being is the practical dimension is
very, very important, and I think that that,
is something is that we shouldn't we shouldn't
ever put that aside. And it just shows
that, again, we always have to be careful.
I think
whenever
I always think we always have to be
very careful when we try and compartmentalize
things too much. Right? Because even when I
think about motivation,
even if you think even if you take
these terms, let's let's get really let's break
it down, intrinsic
motivation and external motivation. But, ultimately, what's the
difference?
Even when you're
externally motivated,
what are you externally motivated by? Let's just
say you want money. Well, why do you
want money? Because you think
money is gonna, in some way, make you
happier. So you're still ultimately in the pursuit
of happiness. Yeah. Right? You think that if
I have more money, I can be more
secure in my life and I will have
or will have less stress in my life.
You're still in pursuit of
some things that ultimately
are in a state of being.
Mhmm. Right? So it's not as if you
know,
extrinsic, you know, external things, external factors
do not have a link to your inner
condition. Of course, they do. Right? It's just
there's a bit of a step. There's a
sort of a gap, right, between this and
that. Whereas people who are doing things because
they are intrinsically motivated,
the route is direct. It goes from the
action to the
to the good feeling. Whereas in the other
case, it's like you can work some crappy
job, which you hate. Yeah. You hate the
you hate it. Yeah. Every day, it's like,
why am I doing this? Except the day
when you get your paycheck and then you
think, you know what? That's good. And, you
know, when you use that paycheck, you know,
to pay your bills and pay your whatever
it is and go out and get a
nice meal and, you know, there's still enjoyments,
and pleasures you get out of it. Right?
And those things are
feelings within you that are good feelings that
you're pursuing. So the only difference is really
there is a gap. There is a gap
between,
you know, the the actual feeling of contentment
or the feeling of happiness or whatever that
feeling that you may be pursuing, either, you
know, whatever it is. Right?
But with the intrinsic,
rewards, it's something much more immediate. The feedback
is right
there. It's like in the moment. Actually, not
always necessarily. It's interesting, by the way. That's
another thing. It's not it's very
interesting is that even when we talk about
flow states, which is supposed to be the
optimal experience, the ultimate peak of human experience,
which completely depends. It's completely autotelic,
which means it's totally
intrinsic. It's you know, in order to reach
a flow state, it has to be one
of its conditions is that the reward
of the action is in doing the action.
It's not any external reward.
So these flow states, which are considered the
peak of human experience, right,
The the even
the the flow state. Right?
I know you can't remember what I was
gonna say now. What was I going to?
I got diversion. Yeah.
But but even that, it depends upon these
various conditions. It's,
you know, this inner state that you reach,
even
it is not always necessarily
enjoyable. That's what I was gonna say. You
may not be enjoying it when you're doing
it.
That's the weird thing.
You you actually may be suffering
a lot when you're actually doing it. You
may be suffering
really badly,
but it's how you feel afterwards,
right, that is key. This is really interesting.
Yeah. Right? You were you were talking about
in in instant gratification.
Yeah. So it's yeah. With flow states, it's
not necessarily instant. Yeah. The the gratification
is not necessarily
in fact, it's quite this is in fact,
it's almost the opposite.
This is the thing is that this is
why one of the reasons why flow states
are quite difficult to achieve
is because
they
they demand that you overcome
your impulse to just seek instant gratification.
Yeah. It is something that takes effort. It's
some and that's actually why it is so
satisfying.
It's because it takes effort. If it didn't
take effort and in fact, the more you
push yourself to the very edge of your
ability,
the more effort it takes, as long as
it's achievable.
If it's so difficult
that it's unachievable,
then it's just frustrating and you won't get
a flow state. But you so you have
to push yourself. That's what you're doing. You're
pushing yourself to the very, very limits
of your capacity. And it's that ability
to get to that edge, that fine, fine
edge of your ability,
and then to see it through,
then this is what makes even though the
actual moment,
the actual
time and energy you're spending, it may be
really quite unpleasant.
It may be quite often, it may be
you're on the verge of death.
It could be literally life and death
situation. In fact, when you look at a
lot of flow states, often they are.
You're pushing yourself to the very, very edge
of even your own existence.
But overcoming that and getting to the other
side is what the feeling afterwards is just
so good. It's just so good.
You know? You know? It it it is
it is so good. I I mean, I
I this happened to me the other day.
There's this one
there's this one near where I live, there's
this one trail, this mountain bike trail that
has been carved into the forest, and it's
so steep, so steep and so gnarly.
Like, the first time I just walked it,
I couldn't even ride it.
And, you know, like, having managing to go
down that and get down there in one
piece. Yeah.
Like, the sheer terror and overcoming that terror
and getting down and the feeling that you
get when you get to the end, it
the buzz that you get, the feeling
is though is just unbelievable.
So but but the actual process is absolutely
terrifying. Yeah. You're thinking I am gonna go
over the bars. I'm gonna break my bones.
But, no, you know, like, we just have
to keep doing it. So the feeling is
that the sense of achievement but and it
doesn't of course, it doesn't have to be
some crazy thing like that. It could be
anything. It could be Dower.
Going down to speaker's corner.
Going down to speaker's corner, standing up there
on those platforms,
Flip. That is terrifying.
Like, you know, you're you're gonna confront people
who are gonna heckle you. They're gonna make
fun of you. They're gonna humiliate you, But
you get through
that. And you inspire people and you motivate
people and then people are listening to you
and people come afterwards and said you know
what? You made me think. They don't may
not they may not take Shahadah or anything,
but they said, you made me think. That
was really good. Thank you so much. You
know?
I never thought about that before. I never
there is nothing, nothing like that. It doesn't
have to be some crazy. In fact, I
am sure that the greatest flow states are
the ones that involve extreme
mental effort.
Extreme mental effort in terms of thinking and
processing information.
So, I mean, dua, you know, is is
I think I I'm sure you experienced that
going down to speaker's corner support, isn't it?
It's a it's a proper challenge.
Yeah. I mean, speaker's corner, I think, would
be,
say,
one extreme version of
all state.
Something that is still quite daunting
is just giving street power.
Yeah. Because, you know, you're I mean, Alhamdulillah,
I find it much much easier now, but
I remember back in the day that I
used to think,
oh, I'm bothering people or nobody wants to
talk or, you know, Shaitan's telling you all
these things. And then it only takes a
bit of struggle and you realize
someone's coming to you themselves. They're asking questions
for themselves. They're not leaving.
And then Yep. People are coming, 1 week
after another. And so when you go through
this
this paradigm shift of, oh, it's so difficult
to know. Actually,
there's a whole bunch of people who are
interested. Maybe not the majority of them, but
they're definitely here somewhere. So when you start
to have that, it it goes back to
that example,
of of the the experiment with the rat.
And the rat, when it sees
a a light go off, it presses the
lever and it gets food. Right? And and
and its level of dopamine
goes high when it sees the light, not
when it eats the food. That's when it
don't feed crackers. And when they introduced the
level of randomness into it, where it would
go press the lever and a food pellet
would come out or wouldn't come out 50%.
Right?
It doubled the dopamine
almost. Right? So the level of uncertainty
so I think with flow states,
how they're linked to difficulty is quite interesting
because
if you go back to, like, all the
kids nowadays, they're playing these video games. Right?
And they're very addictive.
Video games are pretty difficult.
They're difficult. Right? So you've got all these
people shooting at you. You need to hide.
You can get killed every second. Right?
And
that difficulty
leads them to just focus and concentrate. If
you give them a video game where no
one's shooting at them, they're running down in
nice this Teletubby type of environment Pleasantville,
no one's gonna play that game.
There has to be difficulty Yeah. I mean,
I mean, video video the video game industry
is a
a a a really, really good example
of where they have literally studied human psychology,
and they've got it down to a t.
So they understand about dopamine. They understand about
flow states.
Video games is exactly an environment where it's
actually,
it's not easy because achieving a flow state
is not easy. It's just not. It it
it's it takes dedication. If it was easy,
it you wouldn't
achieve a flow state. However,
because it's extremely stimulating and because it's extremely
fun
And if they're if these games are really
well designed and it's very interesting because, obviously,
I I mean, I watch my kids play
games. Right? And I I play a few
myself. I've got one of these VR. I
mean, to be honest, I've never been interested
in this stuff, but my son got one
of these VR headsets, and I was so
entranced. I was so amazed by it. I
thought, let me actually, it was the Iera
that's got me a bad habit showing the
the Dower in Africa with the VR headsets.
And,
but, yeah, it's very interesting, and it's interesting
how
some
some kids like some games and they don't
like others.
You know? So and they'll be good at
some and not so good at others, really
to do with what interests them. And it's
very interesting. There's different types of games. Like,
ones that I don't really enjoy are the
ones where you sort of have to go
around figuring out puzzles
and, you know, you have to unlock some
secret thing, and you have to figure this
out. And where does this go? And, you
know, what's the key to this? And it's
like Dungeons and Dragons
type stuff. But, obviously, some people just absolutely
love that,
and and some people just love the, you
know, the shoot them ups, you know, the
one we were just shooting.
But,
you know, and then there's ones that are
a bit which I find a bit too
challenging. Like, there's certain games they play,
which, you know,
it's
it needs a level of coordination between your
ability to
physically,
you know, fire a you know, fire well,
not physically, but, you know, the I mean,
it's fine if you just got something and
you're shooting it. But if you actually have
to sort of load a magazine and then,
you know, get it ready or get the
actual
thing ready. And then at the same time,
you're paying attention as to where the target
is or someone might be shooting at you.
That level of complexity for me, it's like,
I don't have the patience for that. But
the kids are like
they're just hooked. They get hooked on it.
You know?
And you can just see them just totally
and it is it is to be phased.
That's how it's designed. It's designed to be
like that.
Yeah. It's designed to be difficult, but not
so difficult that it's impossible.
Yeah.
And and
that's what
pushes that's what, you know, pushes them, you
know, to keep doing it.
So so this was back to an interesting
point I heard,
Huberman,
speak about in a podcast, which is
so he gave a really interesting example. He
said,
you could lift up a pen. Right? And
just start thinking about it and, wow, look
at this pen. It's so interesting. Wow. It
writes. Wow. And just just keep thinking. He
said you will release,
dopamine when you're just playing around with this
pen.
Right? So, you know, he he he speaks
about how
the and this I found really interesting. Right?
He speaks about
you cutting off,
the pursuit from the pleasure is the worst
possible thing you can do. Right? So if
there's no pursuit, there's no struggle, there's no
sacrifice,
and you just get the reward,
it it's actually terrible for you for your,
for for your brain. And the example he
gives is that of rats that, you know,
you can get a rat who you put
food in front of it, it just starts
eating. Right? Yep. It's it's not it it
it it's not putting in any effort. Right?
It's in you take out the dopamine. It's
got no drive. You got another rat. The
food's very far away. You stick dopamine, and
it runs around looking for the food. Right?
So the the whole problem that he highlights
with today's world
is that temptations
like social media,
zombie scrolling, and these types of things, what
they do is they give you the pleasure
without the pursuit, without the difficult work. Mhmm.
And that will then create a situation where
you
no longer
see the need to do the hard work
or the focus or whatever is required in
order to get that,
reward. And, obviously, there's other issues to your
baseline and everything goes down. But the main
point being,
if you cut, pursue, sacrifice,
effort, work
on the reward, you're basically destroying your future.
Yeah. And, I mean, that, I guess, in
a sense, comes to willpower, and it comes
to I don't know what we can call
it, but, you know, it's a sense of,
having a deeper understanding, have a d having
a deeper insight,
and realizing that human life is more than
just being an animal and just more than
just,
succumbing to your animalistic instincts, that
you should achieve more. You must achieve more.
And that is, I guess, the importance of
a society,
or being amongst people who will motivate you
and who will encourage you and who will,
you know, help to,
push you in the right direction. I guess
that's one of the things why we're doing
this type of, you know, like, this type
of podcast or this type of, you
know, programme because, you know, at the end
of the day, it's to remind people is
that, look, you gotta push yourself. You gotta
you you want to be achieve excellence as
a human being. You wanna do more. You're
gonna look back on your life, and what
did you do? What did you do with
your life? You just lived like a cow.
You lived just like a sheep. You just
lived like something. I mean, how are you
ultimately
and I guess the thing is you are
missing out by not struggling
and by not making that effort and by
not pushing yourself. You're missing out on what
are the things that are the most
really the most enjoyable and fruitful
and beneficial things
in your life. Really. That's
what what it is. And and, you know,
like, you hear, you know, the these I
love these things where, you know, they talk
about people who are old. You know, they
they interview these old people and it's like,
you know, what
what what's your lessons? And it's not like
no one says I wish I earned more
a 1,000 more a year. Yeah? No one
says I wish I'd made a bit more
money on crypto. No one says, I wish
I had another room in my house. No
one says,
what did they do? They regret. I didn't
do this. I wish I had done this.
I wish I had done more of that.
I wish I
had you know, it's about the things that
they didn't achieve. It's about the ways they
didn't push themselves. It's about
how they failed to achieve
excellence in their life. That's what they really
regret.
Yeah. Yeah.
It's it's it's interesting
you say that because,
I was listening to a podcast or clip
where David Goggins I know you're you're not
too much to a fan of his, but
It's alright. You know, he's a bit, you
know, he's a bit rough around the edges.
He he he said he said something really
interesting.
Yeah. He just wanted the viewers to imagine
that you are
on your last stage of life. You're dying
in hospital, whatever it is.
And you've got so much more in your
tank,
but you didn't use it. And you're dying
with this weight with this weight knowing you
know what? I could've I have this energy
drive, but now it's too late.
Right now it's too late.
And I think what I mean, this is
something interesting. I was looking at, Tamerlane.
You know, he was he wanted to revive
the,
the empire of Mongol empire. Yeah. And, you
know, he he called himself this sword of
Allah. And, you know, he had
he he but, you know horrific
person. But anyway yeah. But you know what's
really interesting?
Every year and this is according to, like,
historians. It's not like my understanding of the
situation. Right?
Every year,
every time he got older, he got bolder,
he got more grand in his thinking,
he became more visionary. There's like it's not
like, okay. Now I'm I I I'm kind
of like just like, okay. I need to
chill out. It was more like he's getting
his his goals became bigger and bigger and
bigger. In fact Yeah. I think he was
on some campaigns when he passed away. And
this is Yeah. He was. Yeah. Yeah. It
this
this this
I mean, I I've heard,
I've heard some people give the description of
Ibrahim, alayhis salaam,
that one. He was young. He was just
smashing the idol. So he's working on a
grassy level. Got older, narratives. He's arguing with
a king. Got older forget arguing with a
king or smashing an idol. He's proactively making
a future house for future generations. So his
thinking got bigger and bigger and bigger. And
I think with intrinsic motivation, with true,
you know, you when you're intrinsically motivated with
the right things, not like you've gone crazy
about time collecting or something.
Right? Then
I cannot think of something more grand
than power because, you know, when I look
at the world map. Right? When I look
at the world map and I look at,
you know, like, Abdullah bin Omar went to
modern day, basically Russia, near Azerbaijan Azerbaijan.
Then you had all these other Sahaba who
went to different locations. The other day, I
saw a picture of a mosque,
right, built in Gujarat,
and it was built with its,
direction towards Al Aqsa. Not to work. So
this is really early. Right? So, you know,
when you look at these things,
I can't imagine
I can't imagine something being more motivational. And
I think, you know, Sheikh, a lot of
people involved in dawah, they talk about history.
I think a lot of I think this
is something I've noticed. A lot of intrinsically
motivated Dua. They never look at, oh, I'm
working on this little Dua thing. They always
look at something in the past and something
in the future.
I think that's where they find the intrinsic
motivation.
Yeah. I I I mean, definitely, bro. And
I think, you know, the other thing I
think is
I think one of the things that you
asked me to cover, so let's talk about
it, is, like,
how can you increase your intrinsic motivation?
I'm gonna be very specific. Let's talk about
if you're a dahi, if you're a caller
to Islam.
And and you cannot you then you can,
what do they call it when you,
you know, take a piece of technology, and
then you, you know,
backtrack it, what do you call it, when
they do that? They Reverse engineering. Engineer.
Reverse
remembered it just as you said it. Yeah.
Reverse engineering.
So, like, if you're feeling if you wanna
feel more motivated,
about something, what what are you gonna do?
So the first thing is essentially,
as a Muslim,
being a Muslim
is most
almost
entirely intrinsic motivation anyway.
So what you're gonna find is that there
is something missing in your intrinsic motivation.
So what are you gonna do? So you
you've got to remind yourself. Number 1, one
of the things you wanna remind yourself is,
okay, is that it's your responsibility.
You are responsible for your life. You are
gonna stand in front of Allah, and Allah
is gonna ask you about your life and
what did you do with it. The 2
feet of Adam will not move from their
place in front of their lord
until they're asked, what did you your life
and what you one of the things is
that, your life and what did you do
with it? So we're gonna be asked about
what we do with our life.
The other thing is to remind ourselves.
Read the Quran. Remind ourselves that you're not
just sheep. You're not just cattle. Allah has
given you a purpose to fulfill that purpose,
and to fulfill
the the purpose of life and to remind
yourself about Allah, your lord, your creator,
that we worship him, that we love him,
we love his religion, we love his deen.
All of these things are things that can
you can use to motivate yourself.
Almost generally almost always, sorry,
when
there is an act of Ibadah, a act
of worship,
and you are finding yourself
not connected that to that act of worship
anymore, not motivated by it anymore.
It's really something you have to question yourself
by the way as well. Why was I
doing that?
Was I was I giving dua because, you
know, I enjoyed winning the argument?
Right? Was I doing it for the pleasure
of Allah? Was I giving dua because I
enjoyed the I enjoyed the fame? I enjoyed
the adoration.
I enjoyed,
you know, being, you know, the man out
there who's oh, everyone's talking about him.
Then
your intentions were near never really
that pure in the first place. I think,
you know, most people have some type of
mixed intentions. It's very hard
to completely purify your intentions, but it's something
for you to think about. You wanna think
about your intentions. You wanna think about what's
motivating you,
as well. So these are some of the
things that, Insha Allah, just to rev it's
like really in a sense reviving your iman.
But one of the most important things is,
I think, knowledge.
In the sense that look. If you want
to lose weight,
one of the best things that you should
do, I believe,
is educate yourself about why being overweight is
not good. How is it bad for your
health?
What are the advantages and benefits,
you know, of being a healthier weight, for
example, or just generally about healthy living and
healthy eating. In other words, one of the
things that is gonna help you, I'm not
gonna say on its own is not everything,
but it will definitely definitely
help you is to educate yourself.
So in terms of dua, it's to remind
yourself,
how important is dua in the spectrum of
acts of worship in Islam.
How important is it as a Muslim for
you to give dua? Remind yourself of what
Allah said. Remind yourself of what the prophet
said.
These are all of the things
that are gonna, you know, help motivate you.
And then one of the key things is
be with a group of people who are
like minded. There's nothing like hanging out with
people
who, you know, if you if you if
you wanna give dua,
hang out with people who give dua. And
guess what?
You'll become a dai, you know.
If you wanna get fat, just hang out
with people who eat a lot, and guess
what's gonna happen?
You believe me, you'll start eating a lot
more. Right? I mean, whatever it is, it's
just this is just human nature. The you
you are really almost always the sum total
of the people that you hang out with.
Yep. So, you know, basically, that would probably
make me a sheep
because
most of what I'm surrounded by at the
moment
where I live in the sheep.
But, no, I mean, joking aside. So, yeah,
the people you the company you keep. And,
again, this is something you learn in the
willpower. You know, that that's something I talk
about in my willpower course.
That is also about developing good habits,
the same things. You know, the company you
keep is really, really key, but it's also
important for motivation.
The company you keep is not only important
for habits and developing willpower. It's also key
for motivation and keeping that motivation up.
Yeah. It's really interesting. You know, you spoke
about your environment because I was
listening
to
Huberman
give it the example of how stories
impact
a person's
reaction subconsciously.
So for example, if you are
obsessed with reading up on the
whatever happened in their life, you will actually
use that as a blueprint subconsciously, and it'll
just be part of you. So they reacted
in this particular way. You and then when
I thought this, I thought, oh my god.
The Quran is full of these stories, which
just
every single time
every single time, you know,
there is some problem going on in your
life. Right? Say it's a problem with your
children, problem with your health, problem there's always
a prophetic story or something relate whatever they
went to. I mean, I can't I can't
think of a,
a point of suffering except the prophet went
through that in some way, shape, or form,
and that becomes like a blueprint for you.
And I was actually thinking about the story
of Surah Yousef that
there's so many emotions.
Right? I mean, if you look at the
emotions, there's hope, there's love, there's fear, there's
visions.
Right? That I mean, I I I don't
know what emotion that would go under. But,
you know, when you add up all of
these things, you start to basically realize that,
you know, the Quran
has such profound meanings,
and we spend a lot of our time
a lot of our time
not understanding that actually these stories are there
not to tell us historical
realities, but actually need to apply in your
life today.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, you know, the
you know, in a sense that
it's it's sort
of it's one of the
sad things that you see is that when
the texts
of the Quran and the sunnah
are approached
with too much of a
mindset. You know, it's just almost
approached
as, you know, where you know,
this is the basis of an evidence for
this and that. This is the basis of,
this particular
minute detail of whatever.
And forgetting that, ultimately,
they're meant to motivate and inspire us towards
action.
Yes. You know? This is it's really the
you know, at the end of the day,
we're supposed you know, we're that's what we're
supposed to be doing, worshiping
Allah The the minutiae okay. The it's useful.
And obviously,
in one way, the more knowledge you have,
it should be, at least in theory,
that the more knowledge you have, the the
better it is for you because
you you're gonna you you
in theory, you would be
less
you would spend less time trying to figure
out what I should and what I shouldn't
do in any given circumstance.
And you feel you will feel more
confident that the path you're taking is the
right path.
Right? So this is one of the benefits
of knowledge.
It's one of the benefits of, you know,
of having knowledge
is that when it comes to a particular
decision,
you have a clearer idea about what you
should do and what is pleasing to Allah
Whereas a person who has less knowledge is
gonna be way more confused. They may even
do something thinking that it's pleasing to Allah,
where in fact, it's displeasing to Allah. Look
at all the innovators and the practitioners and
the practitioners of innovations
thinking they're pleasing Allah, but they're committing major
sins.
This is all, you know, from ignorance and
following desires.
So knowledge has its advantage,
but like everything, it comes with its dangers.
It comes with its dangers.
This idea that you know? And I've talked
about this before. I I know I've talked
about this quite a few times, you know,
what what I call the South Sea Island
cults, you know, these South Sea Island cults
where they,
you know, where where they built these airstrips
thinking that, you know, the the Japanese and
the Americans would come back with all the
during the 2nd World War,
all these Pacific Islands were turned into staging
posts for these armies to,
you know, have their supplies.
And these people who are living in the
stone age never saw this stuff. It was
like, what? No.
Chocolate, Jeeps, all of these type of things,
food. And
so but then it all disappeared. When the
war finished, it all went.
And they thought that by building airstrips
and imitating
the externality
of those things, they could could somehow magically
they were thinking they thought that these were
the causes.
This was the cause. If we could just
imitate this, it will come back.
And I feel that for a lot of
people,
that's how Islam has become. We do these
external elements. You know, we'll do the outward
performance of the prayer. You know? We'll go
to Tarawah.
We'll pray,
you know, and we'll have big arguments. Is
it 8 raka, or is it 20 raka?
We'll have whole long treaties and even fights
about exactly how many raka.
But whether you pray 8 or 20, almost
nobody is actually really praying
as if the number is important, as if
the number is really what is important. Where's
the?
Where's the reverential?
And even more ridiculous than they wanna pray
these in
45 minutes and, you know,
oh, dear, the person who takes more than
45 minutes to pray it. It's literally the
South Sea Island cult. You think that you
can just imitate some aspects and you're gonna
get
something out of it? No.
Because you're totally missing the point. Not really.
It's like you totally misunderstood
what it's all about. You totally misunderstood
what's the purpose of it in the first
place.
But this is this human tendency
that you see with all religions.
They all seem to take 1 of 2
paths. Either they become
incredibly
ritualized, and they become this set of rituals
that often
have no real meaning. No one really knows
why they're doing the ritual. It's as if
the ritualistic
act itself
is what is gonna bring about the change
and the transformation or the closeness to god
or whatever.
And then there's the others who go the
opposite direction
of being
totally internal. It's all about love or peace
or, you know, like
and and whatever external actions you do, it
doesn't matter.
It's all about and in whereas in reality
with almost everything in life, it's a balance.
It's something in between. You know? The rituals
actually have, if they're done correctly with understanding,
they have that transformative effect, and they will
change you inwardly.
And these are the key things that is
really, really important to understand. So I think
the tendency the problem
with certain approaches to the Quran, certain approaches
to the religious texts
is that, you know, if we if we
approach it too much in this formalized way
without understanding, It's the same thing, bro. Like,
you know, in certain cultures, they'll take the
Quran, wrap it in a cloth and
stick it in a high place in the
house, and they're extremely, extremely concerned about nothing
and no one is higher than the Quran.
Yeah?
But it's not higher in their life. It's
not higher in you know, what the Quran
tells them to do
is not what is most important.
So they the it it doesn't mean that
because you have a ritual
where the physical copy of the Quran is
placed high, it doesn't necessarily transform into the
fact that
you actually mentally and spiritually are gonna make
the teachings of the Quran the thing that
is dominant in your life. That's what's most
important.
Yeah.
Right? And we this is what we this
is unfortunately,
bro, what we tend to do.
It's similar to
how
I mean, you said most religions fall into
this, but I was thinking about Well, they
thought one way or the other. They're gonna
go usually, they'll diverge to this path or
that path. With with Christianity and Judaism Yeah.
We can tell
for him. And that's it.
And the Dalin. So, you know, the the
there's the ones who Allah is angry with,
and there's the ones who have gone astray.
And the ones who are angry with it,
the ones who've got all the knowledge, got
all the information. They've got all it's all
there,
but they don't act on it.
Doesn't change them.
You know, the example of donkeys with books
on their backs.
A donkey's carrying all of this knowledge. It's
got all of this information it's carrying, but
what does it do for the donkey? Absolutely
nothing, actually. It makes life life harder. Yeah?
And then you have the Darlene. You have
the people who they don't have knowledge. They
don't have understanding. Yeah. They have emotions. They
have feelings. They but then they will go
astray. They were not guided.
They they have no information to guide them
on the right path, to really teach them
what is actually right or wrong. It's just,
oh, I feel this, and I feel that.
You know? So each of them are extremes
of misguidance. They're both the 2 extremes. This
is what this is what I'm saying.
Religion will usually go this way or that
way. Either will be an extreme formalization
where the actual information is not impacting on
a person's life anymore,
or it goes the other way where it's
all emotion.
It's all about feelings,
and there's no real
guidance,
and there's no real path that they're treading.
It's just about feelings and emotions, and,
actually,
the right way is the middle way, the,
you know, the the the path in between,
which is which is the path that we
wanna be on, the
the the justly balanced nation, which is what
we as the Muslims should be.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Absolutely. You know, when you were speaking about
how you just get left with an external
veneer
and,
you know,
behind it, there's nothing.
I was kind of thinking
with Airea
going into its 15th year and, you know,
100 years from now, Inshallah, it'll still be
around or some remnant
or
some evolved mutation of it. Right? Whatever that's
called. It won't be that long because we
would have finished our job and we can
pack the organization in.
You know? There's a Muslim and there's a
Muslim in every home. That's it. Ira can
close its doors and we can stop fundraising.
Yeah. We have we have the code of
mission supremacy, which is never forget what the
actual
goal is. Right?
But I think one thing that does actually
help a lot
is when
it becomes like a public stated goal,
and then your your public becomes your critic.
Right? So for example, if you say,
oh, we're this company and we're about x,
and you're just telling people we're about x,
then when you veneer off x and become,
say, okay, guys. We're now gonna do lots
of good PR things and do community work.
Someone's gonna say, I've been supporting you guys
for 20 years. You did stuff like this.
Right? Yep. So there's a really powerful
element of having a public statement being explicitly
clear. And then if you don't do it,
then somebody else will say, okay. Well, that's
what was inspirational to me. So I'm gonna
do that. Right?
And, yeah. I mean, these these things are
really
this civilization. Making yourself making yourself accountable is
very, very important. You know? Like, they call
it pinning your what is it? Pinning your
colors to the door or pinning your flag
to the door. Like, you know, like, this
is what I'm about,
and
it's a very good point. If you're not,
then people will quickly take you to task
for it. And we've seen that. It's interesting.
Like, this is one of the interesting things
that's going on right now in the world
is like, okay, America. You said you're about
freedom and democracy and human rights and not
just America, the whole west. Where is it?
All that stuff you're talking about, what is
it? What does it mean? Where is it?
When push comes to shove, you don't really
believe in that stuff. You just dispense with
it at your slightest convenience.
And when it's for you, you you're in
support of it. And when it doesn't work
out for you, now you chuck it means
you don't really believe in any of that
stuff.
Yeah. Because if I believe in it, I
stand for it, whether it supports me or
not,
whether it supports my ideas or not.
That's the true that that's the reality. Right?
If I said, oh, we should only worship
Allah and we shouldn't worship idols. Yeah?
And then, you know, 10 years down the
line, it's like, you know, mate,
here's $20,000,000,000
Just start worshiping
idols, and I'll start building a few
Hindu temples and start whatever. Well, really?
What you aren't about that at all, were
you really then?
You know? And that's, again, goes back to
the prophet when he's offered. We'll make you
our king.
You wanna be king? We'll make you the
king. You want money? We'll make you the
richest man amongst us. What do you want?
You want women? We'll give you women. Just
tell us what you want. If you give
me the then the prophet says,
at least according to, you know, the not
most authentic one, but it sounds so good.
If you give me the moon in one
hand and you give me the sun in
the other, I will not leave this message.
Doesn't matter what power you give me, what
money you give me. I don't care. What
is important to me is this message of
That's the sincerity.
That's the reality.
And I'm sure this is one of the
reasons why people
still becoming Muslim today. Can you study the
life of the prophet
you see a person who was eminently truthful
and eminently sincere?
It's because he was what he claimed to
be, the messenger of God.
Anyway, bro.
It's really good speaking to you. It's good
speaking to you. I'll head back again soon.
Thanks for inviting me, bro. It's always a
pleasure. I'm sorry it takes me so long
to pin me down.
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes when we have a
livestream, you're up going up a mountain to
see the sunset.
Honestly, bro. Really. It's like I just forget.
Even today, I had to even when you
messaged me, it was like I kept telling
myself, don't forget. I'm gonna hear you got
a livestream today. You got a livestream. But
I I did exactly what you say. I
tell the kids, stream today. You got a
live stream. But I I did exactly what
you say. I tell the kids. Yeah. Oh,
I've got a live stream today, guys. Yeah.
So it's the same thing you were just
saying. I pin my pin my colors to
the door, and then they say, but don't
you have a livestream? It's like, oh, yeah.
Oh, whoops.
I see. Alright,
Alright, bro. Take care, man.
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