A Peace of Cake Podcast

just blue on the screen sorry about that that wasn't the case I wasn't planning to kiss you because that's a start that would be toxic femininity would be a bad way to start anyway

my screen so natural as we are back welcome everyone to a piece of cake apologies that we weren't able to be with you last Saturday or yesterday but we are here we felt we didn't want to delay any further so that's why we're doing this one off on a Sunday and then we will resume on next on a Saturday next week. And we didn't we didn't want to leave too long a gap between our shows as liking both me and Dr. Baker can get really really busy so apologies guys sometimes we have to you know we have other things going on so this this gets sacrificed but we thought like two weeks in a row was going to be too much because the conversations have been so fascinating haven't they been bro

they've been excellent learning curves some self reflection and as we are want you and I are very transparent where our hearts on our sleeves and like to share and to learn from our audience and as well as each other martial law so it's not always a piece of cake. But then again, it is a piece of cake. So

while equal salaam to all our sisters and brothers who are tuning in, and non Muslim guests that are with us. So let's dive into this Abderrahim I think the conversations with ETs and Shareen it's good to see you while we can salaam Silla, the conversation we had today. Let me ask what we've been having ourselves Raisa Wellington Salam. Now toxic femininity, we've talked about toxic Max masculinity. We've talked about fatherhood, we've looked at ourselves. And I think one thing that I want to say and I think you'll agree with me here, in no way while looking Sam now, where there's no way we're going to even think that we can speak for women, or in the place of women while Islam

sister, Cara and others, then Muhammad Ali can slam salah. We're not going to be doing that. Well, I and, and I will apologize from the outset that if we seem to be ever even condescending, patronizing

matriarchal and the disclaimer, because I work, I doubt that we will avoid that being men, and then some sort of saying that, that's that's how it goes. And I'm not making excuses for it. But just putting that out there in advance. And it's interesting that you feel you have to do that. Because,

you know, that's one of the things that was raised in that article that I sent you and was very interesting. Like, why does everyone have to feel that before they have a discussion about women and femininity, they have to apologize and put provisos and, and disclaimers in advance, like no one feels they have to do that when they talk about men. Although women feel very free, you know, they feel very comfortable and free to be able to talk about men and dis men and but they never say Well, I'm not a man, I have no idea how it feels to be a man, but they'll still feel quite happy to criticize patriarchy criticize toxic masculinity. And I've never ever heard anyone have to make such

apologies. I really appreciate that. And I want to dive into that article that you read very soon, that you've read. I didn't didn't get time to read all of it. That's so interesting, that you've said that and, and you know me, but I've been told them quite arrogant and times I don't apologize for very much at all. But

maybe the discussion is Why do you feel you have to apologize? I'm not I'm not saying in a critical way. And I'm sure there's a real genuine point that that's a good point. I actually, I didn't I wasn't going to start with that. But what I've seen is that the sensitivity from some, okay, is so much that even this victimization culture and while we have we said before, there are those who are genuine victims, but there are those who've jumped onto that bandwagon and use the languages the language should I say, of victimization, as a trigger, societally to obtain sympathy to have to defer to a defense. So, you're right now, as you know, I'm not wanted to jump out there have an

apology, but I'm saying I know I basically I'm saying that because I am going to be knee abdur-rahim As you're going to be okay.

And we are both considered, I think maybe you might not see yourself as that but we're both considered alpha males, whatever.

That means in this day and age, but being forthright, outspoken confident, and I'll say right now and those who may want to criticize dislike, I love women.

Always love women. Yeah, and I'm not going to qualify that statement. I love women. My wife knows I love women. I love women, your wives know me, used to be quite

just down to one back down to one year now. Right, exactly, exactly. But, um, so my thing is this now,

as we're talking about toxic femininity, I thought, let me just look up the definition femininity, because today

that question has to be off. So I said, What is femininity then? Yeah.

So the definition that I have seen here, I said noun qualities or attributes regarded as characteristic of women. So then, that as men, how do we characterize women? And then again, how do women characterize themselves? And then on top of that, yeah, how does our faith How does our law characterize women? Yeah, in the Quran, and our Prophet sallallaahu Salam exemplified that fact in what he has said, and how he is treated and interacted with women. So these three aspects, how do we characterize women according to that definition? How do women characterize themselves? And how does the deen characterize women as well?

Wait, yeah, I think the interesting thing is, is that I realized, actually literally, on the cusp of this whole podcast beginning that I looked at the actual title of toxic femininity. And I think we might have meant to say toxic toxic feminism. Yeah. But so there's a difference between feminism, right, and femininity. But actually, I realized, even as I saw the title, it could be toxic. And it's really, I'm saying could be because I'm just in a sense, throwing these thoughts out for discussion. I'm not saying categorically that I believe this or that. And, you know, I guess I'll expand my position as we go through the podcast. But I think that it's interesting that the fact

that you know, it's very interesting, bro, because when you said, you know, you started with the disclaimer, I asked you why, and then you talked about sensitivities. And then we talked about victimhood, and a call out culture and all the things that come with that. And it's interesting, that, here's a question that I might like to pose is that toxic femininity, in the same way that toxic masculinity is taking some actually possibly very, no, definitely virtuous, masculine qualities, and then exaggerating them decontextualize in them, right, taking them out of an ethical, moral, moral framework, like Islam, or any organized religion, right. And then, in a sense,

exaggerating it, and then it turns from something that is clearly

beautiful, beneficial, harmonious for humanity and nature into something that really becomes toxic and damaging to that individual to women, to everybody in society. But couldn't we say exactly the same thing about feminism? If, if femininity, not feminism, but if femininity becomes enforced upon people, it becomes exaggerated, it gets taken out of a holistic framework of living, as a dean, you know, a way of life like Islam with its clear moral guidelines and parameters. You take those attributes, and then you start enforcing them upon everybody, men included. So what what would the result of that be? Wouldn't it be equally toxic, just as masculinity can be very, very toxic

femininity can be very, very toxic, right? Because you know, being too sensitive, right, being too gentle, being too fragile, right? And these and when you say femininity, often that's what we're talking about, we're talking about, you know, those type of very, very, actually can be very virtuous and good qualities. But if you apply them in society, you can actually begin to see how disastrous it can be. And you can begin to see it that if, for example, women begin to enforce upon their children, their men, especially the boys, feminine qualities, or those feminine qualities, I don't think that's going to serve them well. I don't think it's going to serve society well, and

it's very interesting because I had a quick look through the same the sister whose article I sent you, I had a quick flick through her Facebook page and read another one of her articles. And that's exactly the

point that she was discussing, that how her protective motherly side was so anxious when her husband was telling their boys to play a particular metal pole in a playground and she was thinking they're going to fall, they're going to break their heads, they're going to this and that. And that was saying, No, there'll be fine. And the boys were saying, Yeah, we're going to be fine. And then she watched him for next half an hour having this amazing competition is that, you know, literally, they bit by bit, found their way up there, this pole until eventually, one of the boys, you know, managed to get to the top. And she was just thought it couldn't be done, right. And no one got hurt. But

it's nothing wrong with having that, you know, motherly caring side, but then that's the dad, he's going to push them he's going to, you know, he's going to push them to their limits, you know, that's the sort of thing that he's going to do. But what happens when in society, that feminine side becomes too dominant? Then you live in a culture of, you know, so much health and safety that actually children don't grow? Children don't flourish. People become either I don't know. I mean, these are just my suggestions. These are possibilities. I don't know enough about the subject to be honest. Right. And I have my own feelings about the whole subject. But I think that may be broad the

difference between femininity, and then there's the whole thing of feminism, right? Toxic feminism, which I think feminism feminine is. Feminism, which is a whole different ballgame, which is also the article we talked about sexual sexual liberation, you know, women thinking they can have it all. You know, you don't need families, you don't need to have kids, kids are a waste of time, just go out there earn money become a consumer, like everybody else. And that was that that's basically what the whole article was about, is that it's a big lie. Women have been lied to this whole Sex in the City culture, the whole cosmopolitan culture, and the, you know, the magazine cosmopolitan pushing out

this agenda. It's a disastrous agenda. It has been for many women. And she mentioned I don't remember a couple of books written by these literary prophets of this sexual women's sexual revolution and liberation movement. Right? And who have actually just really regretted it and literally, like, repented, you know, and wrote books to say, what a flippin disaster it was for them personally. Now, I don't know, I have a lot more to say on it. But what are your feelings about what I've said? So no, I think it's really insightful, what you've mentioned, and the dichotomy between feminism and femininity. And what you're saying about when you distort what the understanding and

perceptions of feminism are, in society, forcing it upon people, it becomes toxic. And I agree, there is a flip side to toxic masculinity, and it has to be toxic femininity. And it's interesting that you mentioned particular characteristics. We've been soft with being gentle, being emotive, because you'll have today, men. And we're not saying that we're none of those, we don't possess any of those characteristics. But we don't have them in preponderance and put them at the forefront of everything that we're actually doing. That shouldn't be the psychological makeup of the man in the first instance. But today in society, it is promoted. And it's also something which we see women

having a preference for some women having a preference for that the men have that that emotive femininity, akin to this to them, so they can identify and relate to those men and the more men you see, bringing that out and behaving in that way, the more you see a polarization and among alignment, I would say have a balanced masculinity, which is then shifted, forced into that umbrella of toxic masculinity, because it doesn't equate to that perception of this very soft, malleable, emotive, feminine man, and you've actually got effeminate man, and you've actually got men today, claiming I'm a feminist. And I'd be honest, I don't get that. Yeah. I don't subscribe to that. I

think the thing is, bro, that let's not have another talk about masculinity. Yeah.

You're right, you're right. This is talking about feminism, because you've got men saying they're feminists and aligning themselves with femininity, and I'm saying to myself, hold on a minute. Okay, because I don't hear women saying they are masculine, and subscribing to masculinity except a particular type of woman, of course. So my thing is now, we need to, but I think

that the blurring of the lines as one of the sisters highlighted, that blurring of the lines is because of an absence of Dean and guidance because Islam clearly provides that demarcation

But before we dive into the religious aspects of it, first and foremost, remember we said from our perspective, what is femininity? And then from a sister when woman's perspective, what is femininity? And if are they the same? Do we understand them the same? So for example, some sisters are there. What is the characteristic of saying they're different? She says they're two different things femininity, and I think there was nullify Nilufer said something very interesting. I don't think she's proposing saying that this is what she believes. Yeah. But she says, I'm not going to allow my daughters to ever marry I'm so disgusted that there are no loyal men. It's not worth it.

world's going to end soon anyway. Yeah. And

your article, the article that I sent you, right? I hope Nilufer doesn't really believe that stuff. I hope she means it is in that's what some of these.

But it's the article in the article, basically,

it was the same thing. They were saying that, you know, women, like I don't need men, I have a job, I can just have sex with whoever I want.

You know, like, I look, I suppose this, I don't have an argument why women shouldn't be able to do that if men can do it, right. I mean, at the end of the day, like I can understand the context. You see a here's the context, I think we have to put it all in context. And the context of all of this discussion is that there's no doubt that historically, women have really had a raw end of the deal. Right, I think you can almost impossible to deny that. Right?

And that, I guess, the the the women this, I think the problem is, is that some really good and important things have been co opted by a different agenda. And this is what happens. Like, for example, racism is something that really needs to be dealt with. It's disgusting. And it's like, it's, it's ridiculous. Yeah, there's like, but but the problem is when something like racism gets co opted by, for example, another agenda to do with sexuality right? Now, I'm not the discussion here is not about

whether in this instance, those people have the same rights or whatever. No, it's like, they're two different issues. And sometimes when one issue gets co opted by another, it confuses it muddies the waters, in lessons, the struggle, but personally, I don't think they're, they're comparable, right? I mean, obviously, I don't believe that, you know, I don't, you know, we have our beliefs as Muslims about, you know, homosexuality and whatever, and stuff like that. Right. But that's a different issue. The point being here is that whatever it is, can we really compare it to racism? Is it really on the same level? Is it really even in the same, you know, realm of urgency and reality in terms of

the world and its importance of dealing with it? We haven't even begun to deal with racism, right? Really, we haven't even begun to deal with it. Why are we dealing with, let alone them we what we do is we sub, you know, we co opt that racism struggle, right? In order. And I think this is a part of the problem with all of these struggles, some really important and good things happen, because we lived in a society where women had no rights. Like, it's so ironic, that they talk about the lack of women's rights in Islam or Islamic presses. We always hear it. Yeah. It's the classic white savior complex. I notice how white people, they, they want to look at everyone except themselves, right?

It's really interesting. Like I said, I have my brother, who's a great guy. But you know, he was oh, China, China, China, China, this China that, and I said, yeah, those things are bad. But are we really any better? Like, why we just have to look at China? How about the all the rubbish that's going on right here under our noses? How about all the corruption that's happening right here in our doorstep? Why are we always looking somewhere else to blame somebody else, and Abraham getting diverted. But the point being that I'm trying to make to go back to what Nilufer was saying, you know, I hope that that she you know, I hope she means it in the sense that that's what people are

saying. She's not really saying that she's never gonna get her daughter married, because there's no loyal men out there.

I you know, but that's the problem. Right? It's that whole attitude, obviously, it stems from something real, doesn't it? And then there is a real problem, you know, of not patriarchy, necessarily in general. But I think historically, bro, we we can really not deny it. Right? Women have had a hard time. And often these things come out of that. What do you think? Absolutely. No, that's a really good point. I'm glad you've

you've highlighted that. And not only have they had a hard time we continue to see

The disparities, even in the West, where they're lording women's rights and everything like that, and we see a lot of

sexism taking place in the 21st century. So they've had that hard time. But then do we go to

an extreme that we swim swing to the other end of the pendulum with what we're seeing taking place with this toxic femininity? And going back to the beginning, anything is gone too far of the heartbreak? What are your what are some real examples of where you think the pendulum has swung too far in the wrong direction? I mean, like specific examples, we can talk generally all day, but like, what do you think the specific malaise is? In your opinion? Well, the gender roles have been obscured to such an extent that we're seeing a breakdown of the family unit. Okay, so when you say gender roles for sorry, Brian, just gonna keep pedaling?

When you when you say gender roles, can you just be a little bit more specific? Okay, let's look when we look society, let's go. Let's go back to the we're talking about the UK. Now, let's go back to the 50s. And, and this was see considered a great time in society, post World War building. And we saw in those times the gender roles, that of the man being the breadwinner, was that that term comes from the women, the women being the house builders, in that sense. Now, even the bring in those terms. Now, you will have those who are feminist, who are advocates of femininity. So can I just pause you there, bro, so that I can finish that statement? This is, these are statements and

these are

phraseology that shouldn't even be used and apply to these genders. Because where we are today, post 1960s Sexual Revolution and where we are today in 2021. I just want to start an extract stuff from you. I mean, just for the sake of myself from ever, for everybody

who's listening, it's just like, I want to, so Okay, so you you're basically saying that gender roles? Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying you necessarily have to ascribe to these things as a belief system. Yeah. I'm just like, it's for the sake of conversation and thinking, right? Yes. So so I'm, what I'm saying is that, you would say that gender roles really revolve around men being maintainers. The ones who go out, they find the provision, they earn the money, they pay the rent, they you know, they look after the financial matters, essentially, they go out the equivalent, I guess, of hunting and bringing home the meat, right. Okay. That's what the men are supposed to do.

And I suppose they're supposed to be protectors as well, right? In some way, since

they're the protectors of the women, whereas women, you would say, and this when we talk about gender roles, women have that task of essentially being mothers, HOMEKEEPERS, child bearers and child educators, nation educators, we're not saying it anyway, to belittle either role, right? We're just saying that these are the traditional gender roles, and they pretty much have been for most of what we know, human history. Would that be correct? Do you think, like, on the last part, I want to add to that, because with the woman have in those roles, clearly those defined roles they they can also be in have also been business women, entrepreneurs, leaders, that that's not minimizing that

particular depth that they've been a, it's a question of, so it's a question of emphasis, rather than it's not an exclusive role. But it's a role that is emphasized? Absolutely. We've got sisters here. Some of these engage highlights some who are lawyers who are business women who are entrepreneurs. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Okay. There are some some sisters and some women, non Muslim women who are earning the finances, their husband may be working and they may be earning more than their husbands. Okay. That there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. What the point is now is that when you are trying when roles have been reversed, that driven to be reversed,

okay, that know that there should not be that diviner, why do you think it's a problem? Why do you think it's a problem for the roles to be reversed when you say it should not be which is fine, but why? What are the reasons what other compelling argument? Okay, good. Let's look at some of the psychological problems that have emanated from this because when you are, when you take something out of its natural construct, you're talking about context and its natural context, for example, then you have distortions, when you have distortions we have poor

So let's give an example. When you've got the, as you said, it's a mess, it's a matter of priority prioritizing particular content. So you've got the woman who's the traditional home builder, raising the children, all of these, and she's got her business, she's got her own interest, she's got our own wealth and health suits there. And then you say, no minimize, forget about those more natural instincts that you have been, that you've been created on, and have the ability for, and pursue your entrepreneurs, in the same way, as men continue to do that, okay. And then the woman in herself that many women from an innate thing, then decide I want to start a family I want to, and they have to

continue juggling between these two aspects, okay. And the only way where they are told to stop is Eva, the husband gives up what he was naturally again inclined to do, and becomes the one looking after the children doing all of the things in the home. And some husbands are okay with that. And I'm not saying that there's a problem with that, if it's done by choice, but then you're placing a burden. societally, physiologically, psychologically, this is me saying this, now women can disagree on the women, to the extent that the natural inclination, and the entrepreneurial business flavor and everything, then become in conflict with each other. So that's where I would say, Well, I would

ask you, is that fair for everyone, the male and the female. And I think the thing is, if we're going to be if we just, you know, if we, if we just stepped aside from all our emotions, and we looked at this as rationally as possible, and not, let's not be emotional about it, let's be as rational as we can about it. And whether we use to be honest, I It's quite interesting that sometimes it doesn't matter whether you use the language of science, or you use religious moral principles when it comes to some of these things. So when you say natural light, you know, obviously, for you and me, we would say that's the way Allah has created or God has created men and

women with differences. We are different. You know, obviously, we're human beings, we both have souls, we both have freewill. But we have some, you know, biological, physiological, biochemical, you know, mental psychological differences, major differences, you know, to the extent that, you know, there's that famous book Men, men are from Mars and Women are from Venus is sometimes we seem to be we're, we're on different planets. That's how different men and women can be, right? These are things that pretty much everybody recognizes. And it has to be like that, like you, how can you if you believe in evolution, for example, right? Or if you somehow have reconciled, you know, believing

in Allah and believing in revolution is relevant here. The point being, it's the same thing that you know that for, what, 3 million years I don't know how people long people know, believe human beings have been around or whatever, a long, long time. Yeah, homosapiens. Right. We have evolved along a certain pathway, right? Surely everyone can recognize that, you know, like, for example, a woman has been designed to give birth, when she gives birth, she releases serotonin, this, she goes through this incredible pain, this incredible suffering. Yet, when she gives birth, there is this outpouring of love towards this child. And that is a you know, it's a biochemical process that takes place that

only women can do it. And there's a reason because she's the one who fundamentally is going to care for that child, and no one else can replace her and trying to replace the mother with something else with some sort of surrogate. It's not that it's not possible, but it can't, we can't, are we really seriously proposing that this is a healthy way for society to be is this really going to be a healthy way? Otherwise, what we're embarking upon some massive experiment with society, right, but there is a conundrum that what exactly exactly what is that therein lies the toxicity. Exactly. What are we expected and the sad thing is yes, and what says what is that has been put up there by K

toxic feminine sees weaponization of feminine traits. Excellent summary. I think that that is that hits it spot on. Okay.

And is weaponization we said what what characterizes women we still didn't come with an answer as men what we see regarding women and if we were to say as you alluded to, in part you did answer about the the gentle traits the what we consider feminine traits. We are seen as misogynistic or

Toxic masculinity is it's about being expanded by us by even saying what these feminine traits are. But it is weaponization of feminine traits by women, by society by men for that instance, as well who consider themselves

feminists. And we know that feminism and femininity are different. So it's exactly what you're saying. That's the conundrum abdur-rahim, look at what we're discussing right now. We're asking that question. Is this what we're expected to accept? Okay, and it is. And if we don't,

we're damned, believe this, accept this or be damned look at society today. Okay, look at the movements that are, are driving forward. Let's look at the toxic femininity that emerged, you mentioned racism that emerged, and that was at the head of the Black Lives movement. Okay, this was a clip that that was toxic femininity, right there in the movement being driven. But it was being masqueraded as a black cause, which it wasn't, that was just an aspect of that, let's look at other particular movements. And some don't come to mind at the moment now that you have that, that, that that shadow of toxic femininity, that drives it. And if it doesn't, if it's not in line, or in step,

with this toxicity, then again, it's labeled. And it's marginalized as being anti feminine, anti feminist, against women, and to data, and society jumps on that this is the problem. Now this is where we are okay. And then the most, the most worrying aspect is that this has been done against religion. Now, I'm not going to say that

there isn't any smoke without fire in that instance, but let's integrate with the behavior of adherence to faith. And the phases and phases themselves. So have been far apart on a number of occasions. And we've we've we know that when we look at the practice of Muslims, we cannot say in with our hand in our heart that we have always exemplified Islam, when we see misogyny within the religion, okay. We cannot say that this is Islam, but yet cultural practices and traditional practices have perverted that they are Islam. Now we're seeing women, a generation of women younger than ourselves now, embracing a femininity, that's toxic, that is everything against whatever the

religion says, We've got references to the gender of Allah subhanaw taala. That is opposite to how he describes himself. We've got references by other faiths to isa la Salam Oza, blend medallic being gay. Okay, we've got all of these types of reference coming in coming from where a toxicity, femininity that is really trying to redress what they see is an imbalance when in fact, it is a balance, religion, Islam particularly has given a balance, which you've got toxic femininity now trying to distort

why the guise of societal, that societal drive?

Yeah, I think for me, bro, I think if I look at all of this, and I try to distill it down to, like, really what's going on? Yeah, very quickly, a quick historical summary of I'm going to make it super quick. Basically, I believe that we live in a consumer culture, consumer society. It's a site society that is just simply driven. And that's literally everything that drives our society at the moment,

is the idea of consumerism, materialism, and consumerism.

And it drives our society. It's basically what gives us jobs. It's basically what gives us income. And it's almost we're so deep in it, it's almost as no way to extricate ourselves out of it. And it's destroying our planet. But the thing is, in this relentless drive for consumers, and what has happened, is that along the way, they realized that well, if they made money, the god, money, the thing that is to be served. Money is the source of our success in life, material things are the source of war. And you know that the fact that every nation measures its success by gross domestic product, right, how much money do we own per person? Then if that's your measurement of success,

you're going to look at the world around you're going to say, wait a minute, half of the people in this country are sitting at home. So

spending, you know, consuming the money not earning it and consuming, right. I mean, they're just like women, basically women are sitting at home, right being looked after by men. That's half the population, we need to get those people out, let's get them working, let's get them earning money, let's get them paying taxes. And guess what they'll do when they earn money, they make money, they're gonna go and spend that money, right? They'll spend it. And then you know, we'll be richer. And then if we're richer, I'm thinking people supposed to think that we'll be happier because that's what they think is the goal, right?

And so what really happened is, then everything is a really now an attempt to rationalize this process and drive this process. That's what I think it is. It's an attempt to rationalize and you do it in two ways you attack that, and you want to drive that process forward of getting women out of the homes working, getting more money flowing. And that's I think that's what it's all about. And I just don't think people I don't think I know there's not a plan. There's not a plan. There's no one literally saying they're planning this there's no like they sitting there conspiring, it's just except shaytaan. Yeah, but you say that just happen like that, bro. It's just happening like that.

And of course, people have jumped. Yeah, anyway, sorry, go on, bro. You're, you're right, to an extent. But there has been planning, if you go back to some of the conventions that can UN conventions that convened in Egypt, I think it was in the 70s and some in Cairo. And I remember reading many years ago, and they had these conventions to say how to get the women of the Muslim societies, how to work to reduce childbirth, and empower them to get into the workforce. And they targeted the Muslim countries and the African countries at the time, okay, within the West, within our Western society, it's a lot more subtle now than it was post World War Two, because the women

had to come out of work, loss of life, loss of manpower, men because many lives lost in the war and everything. But that is something that was there as a drive. Now I'm going to share something that was I found them quite alarming. I'm not gonna go into too much detail because it's confidential at the time. But I was asked to come to a meeting to discuss with someone very senior in Europe, European leader

for European think tank, and they were wondering how they could speak to some leaders in the Middle East and advise them about messages of the Sunnah that were being expounded in societies like Benny nasia, because women were being encouraged through Dawa, to have many children. Okay. And they saw this Abrahim Listen to me carefully. I had to have this meet. I flew over to the UK at this meeting about three years ago. And they were saying that this was an extremist Dawa, because the African countries in question, were living very low below the poverty line. And for them to be this message that was coming from Wahhabi Islam, to be preaching to have many children would only end up making

these, these women, these families produce children who were under the poverty line, who would then grow up to resent their environment and become radicalized. So the message of having more children was a radical one. And they wanted to know, they wanted to know, is there a counter narrative of Dawa, that they could speak with these leaders in the Middle East? About to say, stop your messages and the preaching of this particular narrative of go forth and multiply, as it were? This was three years ago, and I sat there listening to the request, is there any way we can advise and I was, I was in shock. Obviously, my my response to them was, this is Islam. This is what is the download this is

you cannot equate this with that. And this is something that all Muslims believe and if you look across the Muslim world, you will be seeing a growth in childbirth and everything like that. And that's something that's perfect, prophetic, prophetically spoken about. We've been the most multitudinous on the day of judgment as an ummah. So what I'm saying is, there is a plan, there is a drive, it is current as well. The sad thing when we look at it is that we have Muslim women subscribing to this toxicity. And as we said, we hope Nilofer didn't mean what she was saying. But there are those who are upon that narrative, everything and if they've had bad experiences with men,

Muslim men, some of us we know can be very, very negative in and I've done and we've not been ideal. husbands, fathers, whatever you want to say in that instance, hold our hands up for that. But then

for that, too, to translate into a toxic femininity against everything, mostly Mel is destructive, even more destructive than maybe the experiences that some of our sisters have experienced in isolation, and I'm not minimizing those experiences. But when you join that narrative of toxic femininity, it fits affects your tune. I know. And I've seen young men being emasculated by their mothers. Okay, the masculine ated by their mothers, because their mothers have had an expired experiment with the fathers. And there's hatred that started to place towards toxic that's that's toxic, feminine and defending femininity right there. Bro, I want to go back to what you were saying

about Bonine and Niger, and stuff like that. So here's something very interesting. You see in the West, they

you see, bro, I've talked about this a lot, right? The irony is that now in the West, they're trying to encourage women to have more children.

Right? Why do you think that is? Because the white race, you know, the so called White race, I don't even believe I don't believe in racist, it's a lie. It's an artificial construction that the so called White is going to it's going to go extinct. It's going to skip it. Basically. They're not having enough children in order to maintain themselves. Now, here's the interesting thing. Right? In order for the economy of a country to be viable, you have you have to have enough young people, right? Enough new young people being born, right. And growing up in society in order to maintain this society. If you get a society where there are too many old people, if too many people are old,

then the the resources that the elderly will drain from society. Yeah, we'll now collapse the economy. And it's exactly the proportion they say that once 30 That 30% of the population is over 65 or something like that, right? That's it, your your your your economy collapses. And this is exactly the reason why they've pushed up the retirement age to whatever it is 70 Yeah. Imagine being late all your life. Yeah, work hard till you're 65 and then you can retire and enjoy that. And it's just the big lie. Yeah, right. Okay. So.

And, you know, maybe anyway, there's a whole nother thing. But so your population, your elderly population gets bigger. You don't have any new young people. One of the reasons why England is still, you know, here's the irony has actually done relatively well is because of immigration. Right. And it's so ironic that they keep on going on about immigration, immigration, too much immigration, they need immigration, they desperately need immigration, right? To fill in the jobs and to fill in the gaps that there are no more young people for they needed desperate for it. Right? This is the this is the problem, right? With this society that's run along the lines that it is

because it, it depends constantly on constant growth and constant materialism. And you know what I mean, if any person with a brain could have thought down and sat down and thought, you know, what, what will happen if women stop having children? Hmm, I wonder? Yeah. It's like, you know, what is so simple. Yet, all these great geniuses in sociology and you know, social engineering never seem to have sat down and thought about this reality. And now, here's another thing, bro. Years ago, I watched this documentary, right? And here's the real thing, right? Why do they want people in Africa in the third world not to have big populations because they know perfectly well, that with

population explosions, comes a rationalization of the use of resources. And with a rationalization of the use of resources comes efficiency, and with efficiency comes balance, and then growth and prosperity.

So this is what happened in the West. This is the model that happened in the West, during the Industrial Revolution, populations exploded, right. And of course, there was a lot of poverty, there was a lot of suffering. But what happened was that people learned to control their expenditure, they learn to manage their economy, they learned to manage their resources, because it was a do or die. situation, right. And with that, rationalize it realization they reached this level of balance. They don't want the third world to reach that because they would therefore have their own incense, their own revolution, industrial revolution, they would reach that point about which they don't want. They

want to keep them constantly imbalanced, because the moment when they're constantly imbalanced and constantly, in a sense, incapable of producing reasonably functional societies and it's not because they are intellectually incapable that's ridiculous. Flipping look at ancient Egypt, look at the kingdom of Mali, right? Like the idea look at the ruins of Zimbabwe. Look at Shaq

Zulu is not it's not that, you know, and we can see that throughout all of the world. It's not that there is an intellectual problem. It's not like there's some racial problems, nothing to do with that. It is simply to do with the normal process of population growth, and settlement being constantly interrupted and disturbed and distorted. Right? This is the real problem. Yes, that's what will happen. If you have a lot of kids, you will get a lot of angry young men and guess what those angry young men will do, they will go and they will do something to try and change and improve society, they will get fed up of corruption, they will get fed up of, you know, leaders spending

millions and millions on their palaces and this and that, while everyone else lives in poverty. That's how the West continues to colonize and occupy and control populations. And the bigger agenda going on, bro, do you know what bigger agenda and to tell this whole thing of the woman's liberation, bro, the whole point of it, it's actually to to actually ruin society. It's not to help it or preserve it, right? It's the plan to ruin society. And to tap into what you're saying, which is a major disaster. Some thoughts anyway, I'm not saying that my beliefs okay, but but those are very pertinent thoughts. Because when you connect that now, we've got the birth control movement,

and you've got femininity saying this is our right to do this to freeze eggs to do whatever to free sperms and men sperms. And, and to choose which sperm bank we want to go to that right to do that. We just don't want to do that just yet. But when you look at that, and this is a thought I'm throwing out there and all observation rather, when you consider femininity, pushing that agenda, toxic femininity, I will call it pushing that agenda. How does that land beside strategies that we saw in Israel we saw in America to sterilize women, okay to sterilize women, women in the Ethiopian,

I think from the flasher Jew Jewish background, but Ethiopian women in Israel being sterilized This is facts, you can check it out.

And inflicting sterilization and syphilis on men and women in Tusk, Gigi, so that is Tuskegee sorry, in America in the mid 20th century, and doing all sorts of things to women around sterilization, that they didn't know was taking place. How do we put those? How do we reconcile these parallels that one was being forced upon these people, okay, unknowingly until years later. And then there's this choice and this liberation, that this can be done now. And that when that's opposed, you see movements, legislation, and uproar against those who are opposing something, and I'm going to put it out there that is on natural.

So what you're saying about what's happened and the great civilizations and what they're trying to do to limit

birth it births and

these all tie hand in hand. So that toxic femininity, is lending our hand to these strategies.

That's an observation.

Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah. I mean, bro, it's been fascinating. But I'm gonna I want to swing this whole discussion. Yeah.

And like, turn it on its head now.

As we do, because the thing is roll. Having said all of that, having said all of that, right. And I think all of it has some valid points of discussion. I've gone through a sort of journey myself, right. I've gone through sort of journey myself. And I'm going to be you know, I'm going to be very frank, I, there was a time in my life when I pushed a very, very hard line. I don't even know I don't know, what's the what is the right terms to use? Yeah. But basically, my ideas about women in Islam were that they should basically stay at home. They should never go out of the house unless they absolutely have to.

Right. They couldn't go to university. Definitely couldn't get jobs. Nothing, none of that type of stuff.

You know, niqab? Definitely. Everyone had to win hub. Right? You know, and you know, it was it really was an idea that woman was essentially subservient to a man. Yeah.

And in some ways, I felt that was justified by you know, I did I felt that was justified by what the religion

was teaching.

And I think that some of those things are not entirely untrue. And that doesn't mean I still believe the religion is absolutely true, by the way, right? However,

there's a few chinks that started to appear, right? Some of them were, there were certain Hadith that I came across, right. And I never really found that there were very convincing explanations about those Hadith.

And that it seemed to, it seemed to me that actually, the situation of women was a little bit more chilled than we, you know, imagined it to be. Yeah, that's the first thing right? Clearly women went to the marketplace, which clearly women, you know, went out for that when they attended the battlefields, they accompanied their husbands on whatever, you they used to go out to dinner at people's eyes, she used to go out to, you know, people's house for dinner, she was invited by Jews and Christians, she would go there, right? Without the Prophet, she would go. You know, I mean, there's a whole raft of things, you know, the prophet sitting, there's a whole raft of things that,

you know, when I show was when

the Prophet had some guests, you know, and then I should not the food out of I think it was also more whoever sent the food. Well, that means, you know, she was serving the guests. She was there, she knocked the food, they saw her do it right. She wasn't. Hi, she was there, right. So there's just some of these things that I thought, well, you know, this is what I can see from the Hadith. But this is not what I've been told, I've been told something else. I'm being painted a picture that is not really the same picture as what I'm seeing clearly from so this is partly what got me thinking. It's not, it's not completely different. But it's different enough. Yeah. Okay. Not

completely different. But it's different enough. Yeah. And, and, and then I guess the other thing, bro, was just having daughters, you know, and seeing them grow up. And I do think there is one argument. And it's interesting, because the same article I sent to you I sent to my daughters, only one daughter, she replied in a form of, you know, like discussion. Yeah.

And that was that.

Yes, their sister had some really good points. And she had the right to make those points. But is it really that simple? And that's the question, bro. Because let's go back to the reality of everybody's lives in the West. Yeah. Because we can talk theoretically all we like. But isn't the reality, bro, that very often, both the men and women do have to work? Yes. Just in order to pay the bills. Right. And that's why I come back to what I said, when I said to you about when you said, Okay, what do you mean? And I'd said, defining the role. No, you did you Are you very well, you defined it. And I think that no, you're right. I've heard brothers.

And we know it's difficult to survive without our partners working. And often, some, some of them are more qualified and, and bringing in more finances and there's no issue with that to any man who has an issue with that shows he's got. He's got an insecurity and inferiority complex. But coming back to what you're saying about work, let me ask you don't you want your daughters to be educated abroad?

My daughter's capable to be, you know, to be able to not because for any other reason, then we should empower everyone as a human being right? Like,

I'm totally with all of my daughters. No. Okay. And I've even explained this to them. I'll go this far. When asked because they aren't they will be they will seen in society in Muslim Societies, or amongst us communities were in in the UK initially, before we moved out, that they felt wearing the hijab was because of how men were. And I told him, No way. I said, I want you to be looking at wearing the hijab in obedience to Allah and it's from Allah do not equate it to men. Okay? See what Allah says in surah Zab. So that you may be seen as believing women. It's for Allah, it says not It also says, I don't know the Arabic but it also says you may go, you may not be molested. Yeah, there

isn't. There's isn't there that there was mention of presenting yourself in a modest way? Yes. You know, whatever people want to say, right? There's a lot of really stupid things that people say, right? Really stupid things like, oh, you know, victim blaming, you know, for what's to stop her getting, right. That's blaming that I mean, some of that stuff is stupid beyond belief.

In no way shape, or form, right? Is is rape ever justified. However, if I live in a street and I know down the street, there are gangs of people, right, who can lie to you and steal you? I'm gonna say to my kid, don't walk with a lot of money, right? Yeah, take her diversion. Don't go that way. You know, defend yourself. I mean, that's just common sense. Right?

It's simple common sense, right? I can I just come in after him and they go, I'm saying hijab is not just for men. That's the good. No, I'm saying it's not for men, not just, it's not for men. It's for a lot. And this is what I've raised with.

Coming back to earlier.

We're coming to a point what you said, I was like that we would like that we were raised with this idealism. And I'm going to say, yes. What I was understanding of Islam, okay. I may have been being very misogynistic in my understanding of that, and I was wrong. And I think that happens a lot with the idealism that we had about what the Quran was saying. And because of that idealism, because of that fervor, we were thinking in an abstract sense, you know, I speak about that in my PhD study. In abstract states, we didn't actualize it. But then as we went out, as you say, daughters, I had daughters, both of us got a lot of daughters martial arts baccala, you've traveled, we're both well

traveled, when I started looking around the Muslim societies and contexts and saw how chilly it actually was. When I looked at in the most religious of Muslim societies that I saw. And I saw how empowered the women were, I saw women when they appeared in a public place or a queue, they, the men would move to the side, women will go straight to the front of the queue, I saw that women were the confidence I saw of these women. I was like, hold on a minute, what is going on here? And so we took the religion think understanding it with a context of yesteryear. And I'm not saying that religion is backwards, we understood it with a societal context of yesteryear, because we were reading

narrations and Hadith of that time, and we were not being taught how to contextualize it in today's society. And as we as well, bro, sometimes we were given an incorrect picture, bro. Yes, I agree. Given distorted picture. Now, let me You're right. We weren't, we weren't. And I've actually spoken to some teachers and said to him, why didn't you give us the full picture? Why didn't you give us the full picture because we were only given an aspect. And that's a distortion in itself. So as you know, as I've said, as we grow, when we move to the adult phases are saying the four phases that I developed and everything, then we saw Hold on, we're actualizing the religion a lot more, we're

actualizing the understanding of Islam as it relates to us as it relates to women. So ultimately, what I want to come to on this point, here is one of the things I say that I have an obscurity to now, okay, or with now is you and I know about chivalry. Okay? You and I know, even before we became Muslims, okay, I know about opening the door, I still do it for my wife now. Okay, open the car door for her when I'm taking going out with a female relative or with my wife, or my daughters and everything. Or they say there's a business dinner and you've got the women, non Muslims, and they're sitting over there, so I don't feel obliged, but I feel that I want to pay not to make a statement

not to do anything like that. And when I saw discussions taking place by the younger generation, online sisters, or and women non Muslim women, I would never let a man pay for me because he's then gonna feel I feel obligated. I'm gonna have to we have

we had this discussion before. Yeah. So my fingers now it's, it's a continuum, that point and I hand it back to you. So now for me, after the last experience when I was in the UK, a few years ago, when I went, and we were going out somewhere, and men and women were coming through a mix of men pass through the door, and I saw two women come in, and I held the door open for them. And they scowled and gave me the most filthiest look, understand it. And then I was in another queue. And I was talking to my friend and the tiller became available. And I politely said to the women, because when finished discussing and was looking at somebody, please go forward ladies before gentleman, and you

should if they if looks could kill, so I asked my friend, I said, Am I doing something wrong? He said, You can't do that anymore. But if you can't do I said, What do you mean you can't do it? Because women don't like that being done for them. I said, So what So chivalry is dead? You go in some parts? Yeah. And then I heard a discussion and the woman's like, oh, I don't like chivalry because what the what it indicates is, you're doing that because we're the weaker six, my thick lady. And that's why you're doing it. But women? I don't know the week. I just don't know.

I mean, whoever I mean, honestly, women are the weaker sex. They are physically they are. Okay, forget anything else physically. In general, women are weaker than men about 20% is just the fact. Like, that's just the fact. There's just this nice simple by logic

Reality, right? But there's whole, there's a whole something about, you know what? It's sad, isn't it? That's something that is born out of care and concern and compassion. I mean, surely that's exactly how we should be as a society. If a group of people are weaker or disadvantaged in some way, surely by recognizing that and, you know, catering for that that's a good thing, surely. And then what are you encouraging in men? Then when you if you won't let men be chivalrous, right? Why you surprised if they become toxic?

Good question. I mean, if you won't let men be chivalrous, how do you want them to treat you? Because if you really wanted to be treated like a man, like a one another, another one of the lads, and you complain about that as well, because you just can't be you. I mean, you can try and be treated like one of the lads. But I'm telling you, the ladies would not like it, they would not like it. Definitely, they would not like it. I 90% of the time, they will come or they talk about I don't know. I mean, men wrestle, they punch with each other, they fight around, which with each other. Well, girls will call that what sexual harassment or something like that. Right? Although it's

entirely and not sexual. That's what men do. Right? So the whole thing is insane. Right. I mean, but I think it I do understand where it comes from. I do always take it back. I think a lot of it comes from a good place in the sense that there were there were and still are serious inequalities, I still don't understand until today. After how many years since the so called Sexual Revolution and feminism. Why a woman still gets paid less for doing exactly the same?

I don't understand it. I just absolutely. I don't under it's the same job. Why does she pay? Why does she pay more for exactly the same piece of clothing? As a man? This is something I only discovered recently? Yeah, I know that, including my daughters, they will go and they will buy men not because they want to wear men's clothes simply because exactly the same same piece of clothing sold in the men's department is 20 30% Even 50% cheaper

when it's sold for men, and it's like why? I love what you said there's so many Y's and they said

they still exist.

Yeah, what what ingredient agreeing with you, like, for example, on the give an example, you know, I'm running two institutions here. And I'm really proud that I'm honored. I'm actually honored that, okay, I'm the CEO, I'm the head. But the strongest and most talented members of staff in Cebu, I've promoted some, since I've seen their talents and everything, some of them already. The most talented and best staff that I've worked with, are these sisters. Okay, in the roles that I mean, and I'm like,

I'm on the same in our organization, I wouldn't be able to do the perform the roles and the leadership and everything I would if they weren't there, literally I say that honestly. Okay. And so, you're right, Why are women paid less. And we're talking about the Western society who are saying that, that we know that Islam liberated and bought rights for women, we know that I've witnessed that in this region, okay, I've witnessed it, I've witnessed it in the West have witnessed it from sisters who have converted to Islam, sisters who've grown up as Muslims. And one of the things I want to my conclusive point will be here is, while we're talking about this, when I see

women's voices, being suppressed, silenced, and subjugated because of their strength because of their intelligence, okay, that worries me, especially when they are speaking in a space that is wholly Islamic, wholly represented, it's representative of not only who they are as women, but have I flipped as Islam, by voices that are incapable to even hold a conversation with them.

Then I say to myself, that's when we need to defend and support those voices. And again, there is there is still a huge amount of that role.

And that's why it's that all of this is quite a difficult conversation to have.

Because, you know, as you've been Tamia pointed out, bro, maybe we could sort of finish on this is that, you know, the the middle path, the balance was always actually quite hard people. It's hard to stay on the middle path. People always naturally gravitate to extremes, right?

The loudest voices are often the ones that people gravitate towards. And naturally, the loudest voices are often the extreme ones. Right. So, you know, treading that middle way, is really, really difficult. And it's really, really challenging. And that's what you can see like this, this big struggle. And it becomes even more difficult when

the thing that allows us to be balanced more than anything else, which is our deen, which is the code that has been given to us the guidance of Allah subhanaw taala, when people are ignorant of that, when people have misinterpreted it and misinformed about it, and that, in fact, when we really analyze ourselves a lot of the time, it's scary how much our attitudes are formed by the opinions of society, and we don't even realize it. I mean, that was a shocking thing that when I read that article, I really took a look at myself. And I thought, wait a minute.

Is that am I like that as well? Do I think these things because of that, I thought, You know what, maybe I do this subconsciously, right. Because whatever everyone is saying, and whatever everyone is doing, you don't even realize it, bro, you just repeat those same phrases, you just repeat those things, you know, you feel you have to say this, because that is being said. So finding the Middle Way, finding the balance ground is very, very difficult, especially when you're not in a environment that is governed by, you know, by the Sunnah. That's the I agree. And I want to conclude on this point, has Sanders plate put something up by base this debate? And can you put that up again, as

and? And I want to pose a question here.

And men do you feel a lot men do feel threatened by intelligent women where I'm living in this region of the rain, the qualified women, and this is a fact you can check it are finding it difficult to marry. And when a survey was done amongst men, they said they did not want an educated woman. Okay, they felt threatened. But my question is this now, with such men? Are we not saying you and I like that are men

perpetuating, or catalyzing that drive towards toxic femininity? Because the intelligent women, seeing how men use their privilege societally to suppress such women? Yes, inadvertently drives them to a toxicity where they then are polarized, because they are not the desire choice from men, and they become toxic. And that's where toxic femininity, lays root in some instances, is

it I think it has a huge part to play without doubt. I think it's unlikely, I think that's what I said is that I think that we go right back to, you know, what, I've mentioned it a few times. Now, I do think that a lot of feminism, a lot of these issues come from a place of pain and suffering, and, you know, of women not having really that good a deal. And in some ways, you know, if you see the opportunity to, you know, get some freedom, you're gonna take it, and I don't mean that, but obviously, like everything else, you can take it too far. Right? But then you realize that what you thought was freedom wasn't freedom at all, it was just slavery to something else. Right? Like, you

know, that old adage, you know, like, Okay, you ran away from being a slave to your husband in the kitchen. And then what you are a slave to some boss, you know, in an office, right? It's just one slavery to another, right?

Well, ultimately, bro, you know, the answer to that is we need to be slaves to Allah and seek His pleasure. And that it all comes back to it. The more I think about all of these subjects, and we have these discussions, the more I realized that when you looked at Islam as it as it really was, you know, as it really was taught by the prophet and how the Prophet lived it, and I think that's what's important, because we have to really think how the Prophet lived, right? That because often we don't do that. Yeah, we say, oh, yeah, the prophet is the living example of the Quran. Yeah, him and Aisha would argue, like, argue really badly, you know, you know, I Subhanallah you look at how,

you know, we've had this discussion before, right? We've mentioned this before, but this is how we're supposed to be as not we're not supposed to argue I mean, in terms of tolerance and love and compassion and kindness and understanding, and all of these types of things brought, which are the really underpinnings of how we're supposed to be as Muslims. And we're sort of coming full circle to things we've talked about before. You know, your wife is not just your wife, she's your sis

straighten Islam as well. How about that all the things that all the duties you have towards your brother, you have your duty towards your wife as well. Right, right.

And I don't know some somehow it's all got lost bro. So there is definitely, definitely, in my opinion, a huge issue.

There's still a lot of misogyny there's still a lot of women hating out there still a lot of using Islam in an abusive way to you know, to control women in a way that is not Islamic in the way the Prophet never did. sallallahu alayhi wasallam Yes, right. Yeah, does not behave like that, yeah, men will do that. And they will use the religion to justify it. And that's why the women women shouldn't support that as well, because there are women who support that misogyny, though, and they if they didn't enforce it upon their daughters, as though it's the norm. And then we have FGM culture, which is abhorrent, and it's got nothing to do with the deen. We've got forced marriage and the women who

were supporting that and the men who are implementing that it's got nothing to do with the religion and they need to be spoken out against all the time and they need to be stood against all the time. And this is for those sisters who feel that they're in that femininity mode and stance and toxic in that incident instance, what we all need to do as you're saying brother after he after him is come back to the middle and and discard we've got that pain and remember the pain but the only thing that's going to heal that pain is proper adherence to the deen and I'm not talking slogan mystic in and I've said already I know earlier on you've said it upgrade how we were in our impressions and

understanding of the deen. Then we're very rudimentary, very idealistic, very abstract, until we've grown to actualize them. We're still not perfect now. But we can have this conversation now and talk about toxic femininity, and before that look inwardly at ourselves that toxic masculinity, fatherhood and come to realize about our shortcomings. Why? Because we have looked at the things that have shaped us the misunderstandings we've had, and we've been sincere to adhering to the deen even though there are aspects of it that we might find difficult and painful to do. So I would say that anyone who is defending toxic femininity, okay, in the way that it's being pushed society in

the way it's being pushed in the dean, they need to step back, check themselves, move that pain to the side and don't let that obscure. obfuscate Yeah, we should be really seeking out and bettering ourselves and then at the end, ultimately,

those around us in society in sha Allah, she has cerebral and look the the day life is a test. That's it life type life is a test to see how we're going to behave and doing what is the right thing and what is pleasing to Allah is not always going to be easy. That's the reality and it comes to anything right? Whether it's obeying your parents, gender roles all of these types of things we always have to remember bro that you know we have a handler higher purpose I just want to say bro JazakAllah fair to everybody for your I've been trying to read some of the comments that have been amazing I

literally there's so many of these comments we could have had a discussion about some of these comments like honestly think we could be here for another three hours just going through some of these comments and raising them as points of discussion. It's been you know, bro it's been fantastic and you know, I know

everything bro all your input. Again it's been fascinating to listen to your input in this whole thing as well bro how to you know always as well? Mashallah, bro great conversation. Not sure I've learned a lot from you today Abrahim and our brothers and sisters and non Muslim guests who have contributed and I'll do one thing I'm very I retract my apology and disclaimer from the beginning.

It's fine, man. Honestly.

Good do that.

No, does

everyone you have been watching and engaging and listening to

a piece of cake with him over there, up there in green and that one over there, up to Baker. Until next week. Shala