FULL DEBATE ISRAEL & GAZA Piers Morgan & Douglas Murray VS & Dr Abuelaish
Channel: Abdullah al Andalusi
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Live from The News building in London. This is Piers Morgan uncensored, really in London Welcome to Piers Morgan uncensored, Dr. Abdul Wahid is leader of a controversial Islamist movement which glorified the massive tax and chanting of jihad on the streets of London. Astonishingly, he's also an acting serving long serving actually NHS GP. And last night, he came on my show accepted an invitation to be interviewed after he was in the newspapers for his thoughts about what happened on October the seventh. And well that interview caused last night a bit of a stir. So you think a mass or a terror group, I believe it's a resistance. Do you think Well, they did October the seventh sort
of territory. I believe that if civilians got killed on that day it is it is appalling. It is appalling. Dr. Mann's appalling you're a doctor. What do you mean here believe because 100 people got massacred over a clearly don't overheat cast doubt on whether the trust is October 7 even took place, also clearly questioned whether any civilians had been massacred. He believes the Hamas attacks were an act of resistance and the people who did it are not terrorists, but fighting a resistance. I don't think there were 1200 innocent people were killed that day, women were raped babies nails. They were kidnapped. Some people were beheaded. It was a medieval orgy of
indiscriminate violence. And we know that in no small part because Hamas filmed their attacks and gleefully celebrated them in videos they posted to the world. And our system is publicly more than that it will not hesitate to repeat the attacks again, so that you don't learn more commonly Urbina. And I don't lead up with a New Zealand, Lando will fail here to October character. amnio asked at CRC, the normal alveolus let management and Team Leader learn actual monoculars we call
the bomber alternator.
Whatever your view of this war, and I've tried to platform a lot of people on both sides of it repeatedly so we can get a sense of what both sides are thinking. denying that the massacre October the seventh even happened cannot be the basis for any sensible discussion. I have deep sympathy with the decade's long plight of the Palestinian people, which I've expressed many times. I've repeatedly called out Israel's occupation, both Gaza and the West Bank. I've deep unease about the scale of Israel's response to the Hamas attack on ease, it's now shared by the president United States. But to deny that it was a terror attack at all, is quite frankly, poisonous delusion. And I think it's
entirely valid to question whether this man's views are compatible with being an NHS doctor in a publicly funded health service. I'm not calling for him to be fired, or canceled as some have said. Today, I gave him a platform on this show called uncensored to elaborate on his opinions, but I found a lot of his answers deeply concerning. And I do believe many members of the public, not least his own patience, might also share my unease about the opinions he's so willingly offered, just as they were about cries of jihad on the streets of London. There's been a backlash from some Muslim followers of myself on Twitter, mostly because I suggested Dr. Wahid wants women to be oppressed.
Reyes, would you like Sharia law in this country? Last time, I'm going to ask you if Sharia law if Sharia if Sharia law means upholding family values means looking after the poor means no gays? No feminist women who get above themselves? Right caricature those, that's all I know what Sharia law wants? Why does so many women become Muslim these days? Why does they want to be oppressed? So you're gonna tell me that?
Well, I said that in the specific context of done doctor, his desire for Sharia law in this country, and his defense of a tweet from one of the members of his own organization, calling feminists and gay people filth, it's important to understand that context. I don't suggest for a moment that women who want to convert to Islam should do so for any other than perfectly good reasons. I have no problem with Islam as a religion or with Muslims. I have a problem though, with people who endorse and support terrorism or who are blatantly homophobic, or who are blatantly misogynist. And many people have since accused me of being, as I say, anti Muslim, but I'm not no one who watches this
show could possibly reach that conclusion. Let me be crystal clear. Again. I'm anti terrorists, and I'm anti those who support terrorists. Well, joining me now from Tel Aviv is Douglas Murray associate,
the co founder of the Muslim debate initiative, Abdullah Al Andalusi. And
It'll Dean at the lash, the Canadian Palestinian medical doctor, who's joined me again in the studio. Great to see you. Thank you very much indeed, for joining me. Let me start with you, if I may, Dr. Abalos.
When you saw that interview, what was your response to the fact that it's an NHS doctor, working and living in this country who was saying those things?
It's important to incoming you know, I heard that I had many of your interviews, jihad, the word jihad.
My presence here is jihad.
When I'm coming to meet with you to advocate for my Palestinian people, and for saving lives of the people, is jihad. And this is the highest level of jihad, their resistance
against someone who is invading you. This is the lowest level of jihad. But Jihad when I'm traveling, when I am going to replace even someone who is dying, because of far away from his home is a kind of jihad, when we are fasting when we are working, what is the jihad, and that's the most important we need to understand it not to take it out of the context, in the limited understanding of it, when I am invaded with a disease COVID What do I do? I have to resist the COVID. And that's when we face cancer, disease, any cancer we wish you would not categorize October the seventh as a resistance. It's, you know, I condemned the killing of any innocent human being and for me, I was
born, my daughters were killed before October 7, Asana, I was born as a Palestinian refugee before October 7. My parents were refugees before 48 They were born in Palestine. So the history didn't restart the world is not a created October 7. That's what we need. And we are today and it's important, but let me let
tell you please. Alright, today is the 12th of December. Today is the 12th of December, where we have more than 23 Palestinians 1000 are killed more than 45,000 are severely wounded. Even the damage in the Gaza Strip as barrell, the representative of foreign affairs and European Union, it's moved far beyond the damage in Germany for six years in two months more than that, so even you know how it's not true actually.
No, there's there was fun. There. He said that who said the Burrell they are representative of the European Union, the foreign affairs committee far more people died in World War Two than have died. I know the damage, the damage, the damage, the destruction, although it certainly would have been more damage in Germany in World War Two, he mentioned that himself that can that won't be factually accurate. But my here's my question, though, for you. It all comes back to me. I'm I'm very happy to platform anybody on this show, right to the point where they try and convince me that what happened on October 7 was not an act of terror. And when people refuse to concede that point, I find it very
hard then to have a civilized discussion. It's why I got so annoyed last night. But what can we say?
My daughter's as terrorist? Well, I think it was appalling. And I think you what you're using as terrorist. I do not consider Israel to be a terrorist organization. What
I think is a question we have to ask ourselves, which is, since you have defended Israel's operation in Gaza, self defense, no, no. You have a misquote me. I
don't say it's partly a self defense. And let me clarify. Okay. I've defended Israel's right to defend itself. Right. In fact, they have a duty to its civilians after Hamas is repeated threats since October, the seventh to repeat it to is
not self defense. Is it a call? Let me just clarify my position. So you know, right. Yeah. However, I have repeatedly questioned the proportionality of Israel's response as indeed their greatest allies, but not the response itself. I do. But not the response itself. I think they're perfectly entitled to go and take may continue my question that yes, you so since as I repeat, so since you have justified their response, maybe know how they've carried it out exactly. But you justify their responses self defense, the right to defend themselves by making the terrible they write to the committee that atrocity, okay. And presumably, you refuse to call Israel and you have refused when
you've been asked to call Israel, a terrorist organization, government or the IDF a terrorist organization differences here?
Let me finish my question, because I have a question for you must clarify if you're making some a bit misleading. Sure. This country considers Hamas to be a prescribed terror group. They do not consider Israel to be a terrorist organization, and nor do I. So that's the position but I'm not asking you.
I'm not asking the British government. I'm asking you
appears I don't
I do not think there are several. Now let me finish my question if I can ask the question as well right for us to discuss. So considering that you have justified the operation, that Israel initiative, self defense, and that you refuse to co Israel as a terrorist organization or terrace government, despite the fact that as many palaces, almost as many Palestinians gardens have died under Israel's precision bombing, then the London has have died during the whole year of the blitz on the German bombing, which wasn't precision bombing. And yet you still say that, well, Israel isn't a terrorist organization. I think the question we should be asking is, shouldn't you should
you be suspended? Is it responsible to have a person with your views speaking to the public, when you clearly refuse to condemn that which needs to be condemned, which was worse than the London Brit Blitz? That's perfect all that can didn't go for any reasonable precision weapons and the German didn't have precision. So pretty reasonable question. Yes. And you've asked me, yeah, on my show. Yes. The fact you're here and able to ask that, I think is evidence. I'm prepared to listen to people who will look me in the eye and ask me difficult questions. But he didn't say that, but
that's fine. You're perfectly entitled. Yeah, yeah, we believe in uncensored free speech here. But let me ask you the question then, which I was answering my question, but you haven't answered it. Well, I have I said, I don't think they're a terrorist organization. Despite the fact that they've they've killed almost as many questions as Germans. You've asked me a question. They bombed London during the Blitz by one year, non precision bomb. I have given you an equivocal answer now. Okay. I asked you if you can give me one. Yes. Do you believe her maths or a terror organization? Okay. And I'd like to ask you what, you just asked him a question. Well, I need I need clarification. Well,
this country has prescribed terror group. Do you think they are? Are you the British government? No, I'm asking you. Okay. So I want you okay, I want a clarification, give you a simple straight answer. What does it mean? Now you tell me? I don't know. You asked me a question. You are a terror group. No, I want your definition of what what would you what is a terror group and actually committed acts of terror, a group that commits terror attacks as they get on top of that? So when that commits terror attack, alright, fine. So define terror. Do you want to ask an irrational? No, I do. I just want clarification. No, no, we
were gonna go somewhere with this. We were gonna go somewhere this right. Well, you asked the question. Yes. Once I get your definition, what's a terror attack? The definition is, as is laid down in international law, which is committing an act of terror, which is which is terrorism? Are you asking question you don't know the definition of? Well, what are you telling me what you think? I don't know. You're asking the question. No idea what terrorism? No, I want it. I want you to answer your question, massacring 1200 people on October the seventh, and the way he mastered is an act of terror. Do you agree? So killing civilians with active terror? No, that's not what I said.
Oh, so then kingster meaning is not that scary. So killing civilians is not an act. If you're not going to answer let me bro, I
want you to peek. We have a third test.
Day you want to say something? All right. You know, ideally, you know,
United States recognize Ville or as a terrorist and it negotiates would be in Oh, this is one thing. The second October 7 happened and many things happened after? Are we here just stuck there as a snapshot and to discuss it, or we want to discuss what after and what can be done we do. But that's the most important thing. There are all important issues. But right now, because of what happened in the fallout from last night's show, I specifically want to discuss the definition of terrorism, her mass and whether a British belt.
definition you can bring in definition and bring in Douglas Murray, you're just sitting patiently here, Douglas. First of all, what was your reaction to this interview with an NHS doctor last night on this show?
Well, let me first of all say that it's necessarily clear quite a lot of things up because we've heard quite a lot of hogwash in the last few minutes. Firstly, your guest last night, is a member of an extremist organization, his butter here, which is banned in many countries, including in European countries. And it's also banned in many Muslim countries. It's banned in Pakistan, it's banned in Egypt. And that's because these Muslim governments recognize that it is an extremist group that has a revolutionary ideology that wants to replace government in countries in Muslim countries and European as well as in you know, German European countries band in double smart. I'm not gonna let
you lie to the audience that usually do just you're gonna justify everything just say, Marie, right? Please. Give me their country, Germany. It's not bad and just said it's not Germany. You're not listening. You're not listening. You're not to listen to the audio. Let me let me get it for yourself. Here's patottie Germany. The organization. Is this is this Mr. Al? Andalusi. Can I just check? I can't see you. Is that him? Yeah. Okay.
This is a guy he's of no significance, but he's a guy who I have seen in studios for years, spouting extreme Islamist rhetoric. Many years ago, he couldn't condemn the killing of a journalist at Charlie Hebdo. Last year, he wouldn't condemn the attempted murder of Salman Rushdie. Now he can't do this. He fails every single attack builds. But let me get on to the question. I'm not going to engage. I'm not going to engage in a fun fight with this with this Islamist Let me answer the question piers put to me before you try to interrupt again, if you don't lie now. I first of all, please. All right, first of all, I'm not going to keep being talked over by this Islamist blowhard.
Let me speak. First of all, your first guest treated us the first bit of mouthwash this evening by claiming that the word jihad can mean absolutely anything nonsense. When a big bearded member of his butter here says calls for jihad on the streets of London, then they are not calling for an inner personal struggle with the nature of the Divine. They are calling for violence. And anyone who can't recognize that should be questioned about their own motives. Secondly, the we've just been treated to a monologue about casualty figures in Gaza. Where did these figures come from? I'll tell you where they come from. They come from Hamas is quite remarkable. This is July, two months after the
October the seventh massacre that two months after the October the seventh massacres. The Israelis still don't know the precise number of people murdered on October the seventh, there's a reason for that, because
of that scale. One of the striking one, striking, you know, I just don't know if either of your guests are going to allow me a word in because you are alive.
from Israel from the IDF which are not related. No, you will, you know, I'm seeing hearing somebody who presents themselves who presents themselves as a moderate being a spokesperson for him as so let me continue. They are Hamas figures. They are all provided by the ministries of Hamas, which is Hamas, which is a proscribed terrorist organization. If you want to reel off Hamas figures, then be my guest. But you are not able to mislead the viewers of piers's show by quoting him as figures it his viewers as if they are recording. You're treated to this nation betrayed.
Where do you
Firstly, firstly, I will continue to speak if it kills you. Thirdly, World War Two, it is nonsense. But what has been happening in Gaza has, as you said in this endless list of fallacies that there has been more bombing in Gaza, more deaths and destruction in Gaza than during World War. Do you know anything about World War Two or anything about World War Two?
alone has take one German city take one German city, the destruction was on a scale totally
will I will
I'm gonna come back to your
question to to make specifically about the godson it is very important for your viewers to hear the following definition. The definition of terrorism is the deliberate targeting of innocent civilians. That is what hummus specializes in. That is what has denounced what is happening in Gaza also is what Israel is to is what Israel is doing terrorism no for the following reason. And again, you can lie about this if you want but do not expect not to be challenged about it. What the IDF is doing is the same manner of war as the British Army, the American army and all other armies in the civilized world. They target terrorists like cameras, and there are civilian casualties. Yes, there are. But
it is not the aim of the IDF any more than it is for the British or American army armies to target civilians, and anyone who pretends otherwise is lying to the public watching or don't just final question before I go back to the to in the studio here and is specifically about the doctor that was on last night. Whether he should be allowed to continue practicing as a GP, when he identifies her mass as a resistance group wouldn't say that he committed an act of terrorism. He didn't even believe that there have been a massacre and was also quite blatantly homophobic amongst other things. Well, he didn't actually.
If not, please, please let me know. Your class. The Medical
Association combos to the medical association is the one who
I'm set aside. I'm asking Douglas Douglas, he's not a medical doctor. In terms of opinion,
Douglas. Well, you don't seem to be much of an impartial observer of this. I have to say myself, I thought I thought so highly of you before you started ranting as much as Mr. Our Andalusi this evening.
I'll tell you what I what I thought of it appears, I think our country has had enough of people like your guests last night. It's not just that he's in the NHS. Why is he in Britain? Why do we allow people in Britain to try to overthrow the state? Who praise terrorism members are extremely strong? What is Britain got from this guy? Exactly? What benefit have we got from him? I mean, I wouldn't want to be an NHS patient going to him. I don't know if any Jews would particularly want to in Britain, I don't know if very many innocent people would want to go to this doctor. But my question is not is not just should he be able to practice. I want to know why our country of Britain has been
such a soft touch for decades that we have had massive leaders, terrorist spokespeople. Islamist sympathizers, like your guests, Mr. Al Andalusi. And now NHS doctors who are members of groups like his butter here that stand on the streets of London call for jihad call for Muslim armies to arise. I don't think our country benefits anything from these people. I think people like that should leave. We have no need of them, though. Does. Murray, thank you very much, indeed for joining me. I appreciate it. Let's come back to you, gentlemen. To wrap this up. Let me start with you, Dr. bullish. Look, passions run high here on both sides, I get that. But there have to be certain points
of agreement on that. And one of the things that I find very hard to deal with, like I said at the start of this debate, is when people simply won't accept what we all saw with our own eyes, because I'm asked put it out on their own videos through their own social media platforms. What happened on top of the seven was a terror attack. Can we not agree that I'm coming here as a Palestinian? Yes,
I am not belonging to any faction. And Hamas is not representing the Palestinian people, we have to understand that. It's part of the Palestinian people, it was elected with a free democratic election in 2006. Since that time, we don't have any election, we look forward to an election. And we have to respect the election of the people and the choice of the people, if you in UK tomorrow to a left and a right fanatical group. But do you think that other people will say to you, if they said, No, we are they are terrorists, or they are not accepted? They are part of the Palestinian people, whether we accept or not, we need to have a new leadership to have a new election. And then it's our choice
to do it. What is happening, as I said that clearly, before October 7, October 7, after October 7, will never lead to any positive way. It only aggravates a bloodshed, more animosity, more pain, more suffering, and more exciting. I think I think you may be right. And this has been my concern about the in my view, increasingly disproportionate response by Israel is it may have the opposite effect of what they want, it may actually lead to more radicalism, destroying most of Gaza seems to be what the mission statement is now, I don't see how that helps the situation at all. But I do understand why they want to try and eliminate Hamas. And that's the conundrum. Well, I'd like to clarify,
firstly, Islamic law very clearly said and there's no difference of opinion on this for 1300 years, or even more, that is impermissible in whatever situation to target women, children, elderly, poor non combatants, are those not not reservists to Nami? So even the the Hamas fighters which were interviewed on an Israeli TV, there was two podcasts was interviewed the interview. They said the same thing that it is, it is prohibited. The issue of October the seventh is that there's a lot of there's a big question mark regarding what exactly happened. I completely accept that. Let me finish one. What do I mean by this? I completely accept that there was Israelis were killed who were not
combatants is reprehensible in Islamic law. And likewise, is it reprehensible that a non combatants on the Palestinian side are killed? Like for example, an eight year old Muhammad hellhole and others in West Bank who shot by an Israeli soldier. But my point is this right here's here's the issue, which is Michael Clark, who advises maksimum Sky News talking about Ukraine war, he's a military adviser on channel and also trying to fall he described he said that Hamas, the operation they actually lost control of the operation, and it turned into a spontaneous terror attack. I'm quoting him verbatim. I don't remember what but this is what he says. In my opinion, I know I'm giving you
an expert opinion. Michael collaborated well and then they gleefully in the they didn't in Where Where did Hamas the
Did you know that quote, take your mass for people that day gloating about it? Are you watching the videos? Yes, I did. Did you watch that Hamas spokesman you know, you quote that Hamas spokesman on TV do you see what he said about the attack? He said that they hadn't there was no order to target civilians. What many people we know they do. General a general consensus on
that but there was looters that came out of Gaza who were not part of my simple who asked
my simple question, yes. Was it a terror attack? Anyone who killed civilians? Yes, should be condemned and the terrorists reprehensible. Anyone who kills them is a criminal. Was it a terror attack? What? October 7? And we don't ask you said what the final terror attack is? I think you told me initially, yes. Okay. You target civilians. Right. So then I want to ask
one last question. But I just just the same consistency, when the British army targeted German civilians and World War Two, was that terror? No, because they were responding to Nazi Germany's attempt to destroy the world. So you're saying I'm not
saying that? Because of who they were fighting is not a terror attack to kill to target civilians? Are you? Is that what you're saying? I have to wrap this up. Because I don't want to say systems. There's no moral equivalence between us defending ourselves against Nazi Germany who committed a holocaust that killed in fact, they killed 12 million dead they did Britain launch war on Germany because the Jews, did Britain declare war on Germany because of for the sake of Jews, Britain declared Churchill in his ultimatum to bring him stop persecuting Jews. You know why? Because at that time, anti semitism was so rife, right that people didn't care about the plight of realists. It
was only afterwards, after they discovered the death camps, and so on, so forth. Don't pretend that the Allies launched this war for the sake of Jews on anti semitism, anti cemetery discovered, right, in the concentration camps towards the end of the I'm going to say, We did it to save our democracy and freedom. And, and the idea there's no war really
what the Pentagon was doing, this isn't the person that the idea was any moral equivalence is ridiculous. But let me come back one more time before we finish. So my simple question was what happened on October the seventh for terror attack? And I'm telling you, that if you refuse the bombing, the bombing of Burma are dressed as terror attack I tried, then why I'm gonna leave it there. Is that not hypocritical to
call it terror attacks is if you're willing to call it a terrorist attack to let's join each other,
including the IDF has no
idea and that's very critical. No such thing hypocritically. That's your
territory. Yeah, you have to be the
Final, you know, yesterday, I was listening to the chief of Mossad and the chief of bear champagne. And he said, it's because of the failure of diplomatic and political issues. This is important, and there was negligence. And what can we do now, and that's the most important as a medical doctor, we need to stop the bloodshed, to go to serious negotiations to use it. What happened October 7, as an opportunity to bridge the gap between Palestinians and Israelis and not to repeat again and again, totally, I'm going to end it there. So thank you, hey, thank you. I've got to invite people from their jobs because that difference of opinion, in England, I don't think British GPS should be
coming on national television in this country and breaking the law by publicly supporting and he does in a terror group, which is by the way, whether you bring a criminal offense to support a terror group in this country of course, he did that last night by what what When did I show resistance to the terror group? He was talking about justifying what was he talking about Palestinian criminals talking about Palestinian mass American out he was to watch the interview go back and wait for the police to invest describe to us he brought us Tinian broke Palestinians won't broke the law rights for our whole lives. You asked me why that's why
Palestine again, thanks for Douglas Murray to Dr. Appalachians. Good to see you again. Thank you very much. Abdullah Andalusi. Thank you very much for coming in. I appreciate it. And since the next presenter Lenski