Channel: Yasir Qadhi
with Dr. Main Al-Qudah
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But can tiny banca tiny but can tiny Ana them be women coming to me in Kirby
jelly either call up the aromas the hatin da seni. Wanna show?
humbler we're very honored and pleased to have a colleague, a friend and mentor of mine, somebody who have known 15 years or at least six plus, plus
for quite a while that hamdulillah and I have benefited from immensely from his lectures and we meet almost annually at the annual conference and he is one of the members and the Executive Committee of the American Muslim jurists Association. But a more formal introduction, Dr. Mann al cola is an experienced Lecturer in Islamic Studies, and his teaching career here has provided an instruction and training to many hundreds and 1000s of students and even scholars across the world, and he has served as an imam of several Islamic centers throughout the United States. Additionally, he is certified as a half of the whole Quran with an ijazah to teach unto others. He obtained his PhD in
2004 in science and technology of economics in Islam from the American Open University, and before that, he received his master's in Islamic Studies from Yarmouk University in Jordan and his Bachelor's in economics from an Azad University Islamic economics from the University in alchol, Hara, and he has he is currently the assistant professor of Islamic Studies in the American Open University and an imam of mass KT Center in Houston, Texas, and he is the acting academic dean at the American Islamic University and a research assistant in Yarmouk University. The main courses that our chef teaches at the University to deal with Islamic fifth and especially Islamic economics,
and it is a speciality that he has written a number of papers about and he has given a number of fatwas as well in the American Muslim jurists Association, Imja and he is well known for preaching and teaching and lecturing about Islamic finance. So we welcome him to our community. This is your first time here correct second time the second time where was I when you came the first time like two years ago three years ago before I was not to your head I missed out. So my by this is your second time at Epic and inshallah it will be the second of many, many more times at home. Thank you for so chef Anna. We will get directly to the point everybody is very interested in Islamic finance.
But I'm going to ask a very technical question. My first question to Shekinah Can you please define what is from our perspective Riba? And why is it about so problematic? So what is the technical definition of Riba? And why is riba so problematic according to our Sharia
law Rahman Rahim hamdulillah blood I mean, Lama suddenly will send him over to Cara Mohammed earlier he was obvious main la mala Leuven, Oberlin was en la pena Wilhelm was the vein and Avena Coleman I will have to antiviral fats in my diet. When it comes to Reba we have different categories if LIBOR if you go to any classical book, you read about ruble fatherland, ribbon, NASA and river NESEA and the river palm and ribbon, no code, to be honest with you, it's very confusing for the regular common reader because the vast majority of those definitions and practical examples captured on those books do not exist nowadays. You read for example, exchanging wheat for barley or date foods
for data fruit, right? Those examples are absolutely correct, but they are very, very relevant to our society. And this is actually where the confusion is coming from for an average Muslim American who lives in this society wants to like you know, conduct transactions according to the Sharia, without being involved in river, let me just answer the question the river that that we are referring to in the American society is the most severe level of river which is something prohibited according to all my other hip all the time, which is really bad deal, it is, it is the it is the premium premium, that has to be paid by the borrower to the lender, along with the principal amount,
either as a condition for the loan or for the extension of its maturity. Very, very simple example, you go to Bank of America or to chase and you apply
For $100,000 Personal Loan or investment loan or student loan, whatever, you know from day one that this is a loan, and you have to pay it back plus certain amount, right? Could it be APR, it could be a lump sum, it could be flat fee, but what I mean, whatever the formulas they use might be. So we have we have a principal amount, and we have surplus or premium on top of the amount. Why it is problematic from a Sharia perspective. When I mean, this is a very good question. You take a loan from the bank, for example. And the bank charges you let's say 3% or 5% interest, you take that money, you indulge it in a business, you make a profit 10 15%, right, you will pay the principal,
you will pay the interest and you keep the rest for yourself. If everybody is happy, if it is a win win situation, then why Allah subhanaw taala is still prohibiting Riba? It's a very good question. Well, the example that I just mentioned, is just one example of different examples that do happen in the real life. Sometimes you make, believe it or not, you're here. So you make not 100% profit, you make 10,000% profit, it does happen in real life, and I'm responsible for what I say, right? It's absolutely unfair to give the bank only three or four or 5% APR or interest and you keep the rest of the profit for yourself. It did happen especially the last year in March 2020, just a few days
before the pandemic started you know, hurting the economy in the USA, that that you are unable to make profit for sure, because the whole economy actually got frozen, you are unable even to maintain your your principal, right, you lost the principal, the principal amount, you know, the amount that you took the loan that you took from the bank has been lost because of the economy. And by the law of the land, the bank is still actually can go after you and ask for the principal amount and ask for the interest on top of it. So, in both cases, there is a lot of injustice
happen in the real life, sometimes real exploitation, when the bank is not taking any risk whatsoever. Okay, the bank actually is shifting, just putting the risk in your shoulder, here is the lawn you do whatever you want, okay, you will make a profit you, you you, you break even you incur loss, we do not care about you, here's $100,000 You bring it back next year 150,000 After two years 106,000 This is absolutely unfair because the bank is not taking any liability or responsibility or risk, if you wish with the other party. And this is this is why Islam actually is a strictly standing against riba because of the injustice actually implemented. And the Islamic finance system
if you go to Islamic Chase Bank or Islamic Bank of America for example, and you apply for a loan, they will say Well, we do not have money for you, we do not will not give you a loan here, you are in the wrong place. If you want to finance for your business, let's sit down and talk business. Right you want to build a house there are something called Moraga or Masaryk or Ijarah you want to construct a building there's something called a Cessna,
you want some cash money to upgrade your visit there's something called Modaraba. So, we sit down together and we discuss business and we go with the model technically called risk sharing model versus the risk shifting model right they the prevailing economic finance system is going with the with with the shift with the with the risk shifting model, you take the money you are by your own was not cared about you okay the Islamic finance goes with the risk sharing model, we are partners, if there is any profit everybody enjoys the profit, if there is any loss actually everybody will be will be losing. So, you see the huge difference between the injustice implemented and happen in real
life when you go with the traditional system versus the justice and the fairness that Allah subhanaw taala actually is calling for through the prohibition of riba. So chef it is can we say therefore, that even though the general rule is that any transaction the two parties agree to is halal if it is done by mutual consultation? Allah azza wa jal has made a specific mutual consultation haram even if they both agree, and that is rebar. And that is because the rebar by its nature is exploitative. Can we say something like this? That's absolutely correct. We have a lot of flexibility when it comes to conducting business and partnership transaction between people. We have a lot of flexibility. Go
ahead and do whatever you want. As long as you are staying away from riba as long as it is proven that no one is advancing money to somebody else, and that principle on its return are guaranteed
write this is actually the most fundamental component that we have to take into consideration. As you know,
there is a lot of that has to be avoided, there is uncertainty that has to be avoided, but the most like, you know, the most prohibited and the most important matter that we have to pay attention to, is to stay away from riba which is which is a kind of exploitation chain and social can we also then define the Riba or at least the type that we are most interested in is, every loan that guarantees some type of benefit upon the lender is a type of riba called Local danger or Malphite. And for whatever, yeah, every every loan brings a stipulated benefit to the to the lender, not to the borrower, the lender, yeah, yeah, the lender will be counted as, as Riba, when we say stipulated
benefit, it is with understanding that the lender actually is not taking any risk. Yes, or of its
business. Exactly. Absolutely. It is a loan loan means that you are by by your own, take the money, do whatever you want. I don't care about you come back after one year you pay me the principal and the interest and I can go after you by the law of the land, because that is the agreement between you and I, that is that is the Rebbe, J Dilla, Fatah private so share, can you give us some examples of riba based transactions here in America, and however much time you want to spend, everybody always asks about the issue of mortgages? So can you summarize your position about mortgages in this? So examples of Riba and what do you think of the reality of the mortgage situation?
In America once once we comprehend the definition of free will, the challenge that we are facing here actually, is to implement that definition? And to figure out with research and transaction does involve riba or not right, this is the challenge that we are facing here. I'll give you an example. What is the difference between me offering us Yes, or $5,000? Loan? Right. And I asked you that, that you have to pay me the 5000 5500 within one year, that's a straightforward interest bearing Hello, am I correct? Correct. Okay, what if I have decided to go to Bank of America, and I opened a savings account, and based on the agreement that $5,000 has to be paid back to me 5500 Within one
year, what's the difference between this scenario and the other scenario?
Technically speaking, there is no difference, no difference whatsoever. This actually means that opening a savings account is an interest bearing loan, believe it or not, it's not introduced to you as an interest bearing loan. But that is the nature of the agreement, right? You will give your money to Bank of America your principal is guaranteed your return on the investment which is delivered as guaranteed by the FDIC, the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. That's actually the very confusing part, that the vast majority of those transactions that we are getting involved in are not introduced to us as Rieber as the extra plus a three by that we know they are like you know
introduced to you otherwise. And your job as a practicing Muslim is to investigate and to unlock the secret of the agreement and find out again, if someone is giving money, and that's money, the principal amount and its return both are guaranteed, that is the river that Allah subhanaw taala prohibited whether it is called Riba in the real life or it is called otherwise we do not care. And this actually brings our attention shift the world known for maximum by the mafia Alebrije to follow code Dilma Casa de Waal, Manny larell. Al Foley, well my Bernie, what matters in transactions is the essence and reality, not the warding or the formality. So, even if the if the charge that you are
charging others or you are charged by others is introduced you as otherwise right, if it is if it is a premium that has to be paid on top of the principle, that is the Riba that Allah subhanaw taala prohibited and based on that, based on that, opening a savings account, the default rule of opening a savings account is that it is not an option because it is a straight forward interest bearing loan. Give another example from the real life
you have only $500 in your in your debit card, your checking account and you stopped by any point of sale and you made a transaction of $700
Usually it goes through Usually it goes through okay in the bank statement of next month, you will see that you have to pay back $200 And on top of that there is $35 overdraft charge, it's not river No, this overdraft charge. Now your job is to interpret or to unlock the secret of what happened when you when you do a transaction
Have $700 It means that you have taken $200 from the bank? My Correct? Is it like a gift for you? Sure. So why did you look as we say, an RV? No, it is not right. So you have to pay back the $200 If this is the only thing you need to pay back, then we get to go. I mean, what is the concern you borrow 200 You pay it back 200 problem here is that you pay on top of it. $35 I'm just giving random numbers, right? That number is introduced to you as overdraft charge, well, you borrow 200 and you paid it back or you have to pay it back. $235 You see, well, that overdraft charge by default by default, is deliberate that Allah subhanaw taala prohibited. Now, you can maybe prove otherwise. I
mean, there might be some justification that there is some logistical work and paperwork has to be done like to, you know, get that 200 That is very possible. But the default rule is that you pay on top of the principle that you have borrowed, that is the river that Allah subhanaw taala. prohibited. So exactly I say can go on on maybe now you can see the pattern. You know, Chef, let's see, let me give you the opposite example. How about the cashback?
cashback the Discover card? Here you go. You have a credit card. Right? And you use it for $100. You get $5. cashback a lot of people actually say is the cashback River. Well, before you jump to a conclusion, you need to again, unlock the secret of what's happening. What does it mean for you to use your credit card for purchasing it means that you are borrowing money from the credit company? Am I correct? So you borrow 100 $100? Okay, and you benefit from the $5. Right? So you borrow 100, then you pay it back how much 9595? No $95 Because Because the cash back is $5. So 100 100 minus five, that's 95. So you borrow 100, and you pay it back less. Now, this is absolutely the opposite
of Freeburg. We just said colocar, then Jarana, felden, mchardy for Horiba. Every long that brings a stipulated benefit to the lender, well, who is benefiting here? The lender or the borrower, the borrower, the borrower. So the cash back actually is halal. And as always say that if you have any problem with the cash back, give it to me, I mean, I'll do solid more than happy. Some people are happy at that.
Alhamdulillah but yeah, we didn't answer the issue of Hajra and Laura and mortgages I mean, palazzetto I know this is very detailed. But if you can just summarize your and I'm just position or yeah, we'll we'll we'll discuss it actually in details tomorrow shall on our seminar that's between Laura NASA from 215 to 515. Inshallah, we will be having salah, and we're lucky enough to discuss it. But to
briefly briefly, what does it mean to to mortgage a house? Again, you have to unlock the secrets of the transaction before you jump to a conclusion. When you mortgage your house, you get involved in three different transactions simultaneously. There is a sale agreement where you as a customer, okay, buy a house from the landlord. And there is a loan agreement because of course, you do not have half a million dollars or paid cash for the house. So you apply for a loan from the mortgage company, that's a loan agreement, right? And there is a mortgage agreement where the mortgage company actually puts a lien on the property to secure their money. So three different transactions
are going simultaneously. Sale actually is halal mortgage according to the definition of the Quran, when kumara Sephora and voluntarily ducats even ferry handle Macola like it is the right of that is absolutely the right of the lender to mortgage the property of the borrower to secure his money. So mortgage agreement is fine. Sale Agreement is fine. loan agreement is not fine. Because I mean, you borrow half a million dollars, you pay it back six or seven or even $800,000. Within 30 years. Some people get confused. They see like the name of Bank of America on the deed of trust, thinking that all the bank is owning the house No, wrong us. The bank actually is the lien holder of the property,
not the owner of the property. So the bank is not owning the property bank is just putting a lien on the property to secure to secure his fun. So we ended up having three different transactions. Two of them are halal. And one of them is haram. If you want to be like a very American democratic guy, you go with the majority, right two against one. So merge is halal Here you go. Well, in the standard finance system, it goes the other way around. Right? If it is proven that one deal is haram within that package, or combination of three different transactions, then the whole deal actually is ruined. The whole deal actually is not, you know, it's not heard based on that the default rule
Have mortgaging your house in the United States according to the traditional way, is not a halal option for Muslims. Now, the chef is asking about Amgen position, we do have some some attempts, okay by different Islamic mortgage companies who try to offer an Islamic alternative, there are not in the same level of seriousness and diligence and applying genuine and sound Islamic mortgage options if you go to our website, I'm Alana, just just Google at MJ MJ
systemic mortgage companies, you will see a very long detailed declaration showing you those five different major I would say standard mortgage companies and the status of each one of them. Inshallah so tomorrow have a longer discussion on the citizenship JCF
let me play not devil's advocate because we don't realize it but let me pay play what do you call them angels aggregator, let me just play the mortality of the the person who is coming with the other opinion, as you are aware here. So now there are a number of academics and even scholars, they are not mainstream, but that's simply because mainstream doesn't accept them as being mainstream, but they are ruled AMA. And there are academics who are arguing that Riba and the rulings of riba have to be rethought for fiat currency. And that is, for multiple reasons of them is the inflationary nature of fiat currency. And there are other reasons they bring as well that these
academics would say we all agree, the classical hedonic Ribba is how can we all agree, but this cash that we're using this paper currency that we're using, given that it is different from gold and silver, and that it is actually dealing from gold and silver, that's one argument. And then the other argument, which I think is very interesting, and that is that the value does not remain stagnant. And a long term loan does not retain the same monetary value over the course of 20 years. So currency by its nature is inflationary. And so these group of academics, some of them outright, say there is no ribbon field, but others say that traditional faith has to be rethought. And we have
to have a more nuanced response to the realities of modern finance. So without getting too technical, what is your overall position about this? It's at all this objection, right? That is a mind that one and a major one, the minor one, if you ask those scholars and academics, yes, I mean fee as one it does not have any intrinsic value. And gold and silver do have How can you buy gold and silver nowadays?
We have to use coin,
you have to use federal money, right? So fiat money actually is used to purchase gold and silver, it takes the same rules of gold and silver. So all the life rebuild rules apply to gold and silver, they do apply to fiat currency nowadays, this is actually the minor issue. The major issue here, sir,
it is, it is really a fundamental one, what we believe in is that lon, is not a more define us to start with. So the inflation issue does not even exist, according to our theory, okay, if someone actually is approaching me ask him for $5,000 to pay for the tuition fees, or the rent of his apartments or to you know, whatever surgery or I mean, something that's really, you know, necessary, I'll be more than happy to give him $5,000 for maybe a few weeks, few months. And a part of that as it is that I'm willing to take, you know, to take the inflation or to incur the inflation because giving giving alone is that is an act of devotion and charity. I give it you know, for the cause of
Allah subhanho wa Taala So, I'm not allowed to take any single you know, penny on top of the principal, I give him or her $5,000 I get it back 5000 no more or no less. Right now. If that person actually is approaching me ask him for $100,000 And I know for a fact that he wants to upgrade his business right? Okay. Well, even if I have the you know, the $100,000 I will not give it to him I mean based do not with all due respect I give you $100,000 As a person has an interest free loan, you take my money, right as a loan, okay? Because I do not charge an interest and you're a practicing Muslim like me you do not you know, pay interest. You take my money, you invest it in
your business for two or three days, you will make 10s of 1000s of dollars of profit. And then you come back to me after three years giving me a big hug. Just Dr. Walker here's your money back. Seriously. Is this a good business? Of course it is not. So if I want that you want my money to do business? Well, let's sit down and talk and talk business. We can go with Donald autobahn, right I give you the money because I know that you are the experts in the car dealership business here is the money. Here is the shirt on the condition and the situation is go ahead and go
work on my money on my behalf whatever profit you make net profit I will take. So my point to share is that
inflation is an issue when it comes to giving the loan as a more definers. Well, if we disagree on the on this fundamental issue, that loan is not even a more definers to start with, then then the inflation issue does not exist to start with.
Fair enough. Yeah, I mean,
all I would say theoretically are correct. But realistically, people will be taking loans for various reasons, even let's say medical school, for example, there's something of this nature where the loans do become quite large. And
there is a Hijra amongst the people, but you're correct. From ideal perspective, we should not be taking large amounts of loans for business purposes or even for you go within of those, like Islamic modified depends on the nature of the business that you want to finance for. But Lauren, I'm going to start with is not a more defined period. Inshallah. Okay, so move on to the second to last question.
We talked about Riba and back and forth, let's get to the broader question. Can you define what makes Islamic finance Islamic what is Islamic about our version of Islamic finance? I'll be honest here, a lot of people think that it's a type of numbers game or word game. The and you yourself just said the ruling is we don't care about the words us we care about the mocassin. We care about the overall. And it is as if some of these Islamic mortgage companies they're taking from Fannie and Freddie or they're taking from the same people. And they're even charging a little bit more. And in reality, it seems as if the contract is constructed all in their favor. So what exactly makes
Islamic finance Islamic?
Well, in the same way that we have like a Muslim family law and Muslim penal on Muslim economic system, we do have an Islamic finance system. If you avoid like certain defects and the agreement in which one of them are the most important one as it is deeper than this is by default, and Istanbul. And by the way, I do not think it is fair enough to call it Islamic to start with, you can call it a Jewish violence, believe it or not, you can call it the Christie and finance because Allah subhanaw taala don't have prohibited us from dealing with interest is the same one who prohibited the Jewish community from dealing with interest well after the hem rebel, a new one. So revature is prohibited
in Christianity for fact, Riba is prohibited in the Abrahamic faith, for fact, in Judaism, for fact, so I do not mind at all, if you call it the Jewish Finance or Christian finance, I do not mind at all, the most important thing is to make sure that you go with the just and fair and ethically responsible, responsible finance. Now back to the maybe mortgage, standard mortgage companies.
What makes it Islamic or what makes it different? Well, if you are looking for a genuine sound, 100% Islamic finance practice in the USA, with those companies who deal in the secondary market, we are wasting our time to be honest with you, you won't find it, you cannot find it, period, right, unless you operate offline. And Hamdulillah. We do have a lot of attempts here in the US Islamic mortgage companies who do not who do not deal in the secondary market. For those who do not know what this means secondary market. Banks, usually mortgage companies do not have the financial ability of waiting for you as a customer for 2030 years to pay them back the principal. They just take that out
next day and they sell that contract to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, if it if it is worth let's say $1 million, they take nine $970,000 cash, and that's it and you start paying your money to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae again, they do not have the ability in order for them to make those contracts. Okay, sellable to Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, they have to go with the book. So they all actually are Freddie Mac compliant way more than to be Sharia compliant. Now to be honest, and And fair enough for those companies. They are not in the same level of diligence and dedication to implement an Islamic Finance Finance model problem, he or she has that problem. The fundamental problem is
that the whole system is an understanding of one. So in order for you to incorporate a genuine and sound Islamic finance practice within an understanding finance, it is close to impossible, right? Because of the severe incompatibility between the two differences in the Islamic one, you have to own the property you have to be alive and responsible for the property, you pay maintenance, you pay tax, you pay insurance, can you take the risk of like any increase or decrease in the market value and the traditional finance system you cannot do any of the above. So to do all the above, and
To do all the above, I mean, it is it is impossible. However, however, we do have some serious attempts who were able to navigate through the system and find a way that is, I call it halal enough option handling of Halal enough of a new category
option versus just just like traditional mortgage on Well, I mean, if you have Halal enough versus absolutely horrible when you go with, like back home we say, a Ramadan Alana, right, like, you know, something is better than nothing. So we do have 100 or some some attempts. Again, if you go to MJ, just Google MJ, instead of waters company read like a very detailed declaration about those five major companies operating in the US. J Chicana. It's Friday nights, I'm going to conclude with one question shallots. It's a bit of a blunt questions here. But I mean, I, you are the person to ask this too.
Isn't it a little bit overwhelming, then like what can we do against the global financial market, then? I mean, is there any hope for us Muslims, impacting the system, the whole world functions on Riba, the whole world is based on a version of capitalism that from it's very well suited and fundamentals contradicts our ethos and our spirit, only for us giving a loan is an act of worship right then. And there, we changed the entire paradigm of, you know, the Western version of capitalism for us, you know, as a business partnership. So what can we do to affect the system? I mean, we're a small minority in this country. And even in the globe, no doubt, you know, Muslims are
much larger, but still, the system is totally antithetical to us. So can we as Muslims really produce a version or a product that is so solid, it will insha Allah to other supplant and replace the other system? Or maybe even make a dent in it?
are you talking about Muslim, Muslim Muslim countries, authorities who do have the ability of restructuring the finance system? Or talking about Muslim minority in the US, let's focus about Jay and focus on our symposium? Well, I have been in this field for for 20 years, God has, I wholeheartedly believe that the Muslim community in the United States does have enough financial resources, intellectual, academic, human resources that are enough to establish our own finance system and the United States.
Walleye, do you know that that it is very, very possible to establish a federal credit union, Federal Credit Union, you need maybe two or $3 million to establish it will just started here and accordingly, and to start operating. In the same way that we have a lot of challenges, we have a lot of opportunities here, what we are lacking, unfortunately, I wish to lie, I'm wrong. But this is this is the reality. We are lacking a vision. Lacking leadership, we can establish our own our own system. And I'm aware of several different attempts, for example, Islamic mortgage companies who operate of the system they do not deal with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae whatsoever, very successful
Yes, their financial capacity is very limited, but at the end of the day, they produce why I mean, why do not just copy and paste this this model and do it over and over? How about establishing establishing a federal credit union which is the alternative actually of the traditional banking system, I'm aware of several LLC like different different corporations who just to bring money from different investors and they work on the on the ground doing real estate business or car dealership or whatever hull business and they are doing a wonderful job, we can we can chat in the system we can. On the other hand, we can we can penetrate the system, if we do the necessary lobbying, talking
to like, you know, public officials, do you like doing our own, we can change the system a little bit and just establish some Sharia compliant, you know,
Islamic finance Institute's in the in the United States. So in Hamdulillah, I mean, when there is a will there is a there is a way the problem he has yet is with well, with the vision with the with the leadership, I tried myself, and it's not a secret to establish a federal credit union And subhanAllah I was I was like pushed back by by several not not like you know, common Muslim law by several scholars. Or be careful chef, I mean, this is money I mean, we do not want to get involved in stay away from just educate people do not I want to like like bring Islamic finance from the theory to the practice. They said there's like acting as the bad guy. This is haram or this is Riba
i want to provide an alternative. When I started working on the ground, there was like a lot of pushback from within the Muslim community leaders Musharraf and and that's actually the genesis of the
problem that we have GFS otherwise whereby the opportunities are there I'm I'm responsible for what I say we can do a lot or after hamdulillah so ensure that there is light at the end of the tunnel and inshallah Tada maybe within within our generation inshallah we will be able to see a viable alternative where our youth maybe even this people in the audience you shall know when they grow up and it's time for them to not just get cash back but house back inshallah as well. That they will be viable alternatives and shallow to this good news at hamdulillah chetana it was Zach Allah salah I know you've had a flight and a long day today Zack Allah Farah for honoring us with your presence
me Ms. Dahiya. Doll Seanie What does she mean a lot of told me what to feed
Jenny Tansa down