Yasir Qadhi – Interview With Dr. Jamal Badawi A Pioneer of Islam in North America

Yasir Qadhi
AI: Summary © The speakers discuss the influence of Islam on society and culture, including the importance of reading and summarizing books in Islam and writing in a structured way. They also emphasize the importance of learning the language and cultural implications of Islam, as well as activism and personal relationships. The speakers stress the need for flexibility and learning from past experiences, balancing work and learning for success, and organizing for a better understanding of Islam. They also mention a meeting they will have with colleagues and emphasize the importance of learning from past experiences.
AI: Transcript ©
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As salam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh Alhamdulillah wa salatu salam ala Rasulillah Allah Allah, he was so happy woman while your brothers and sisters, I am so excited and humbled to have with me today, one of the pioneers of the Islamic movements and one of the founders of the mainstream umbrella organizations of the Muslim community in North America. Dr. Jamal Badawi and Dr. Jamal, by the way honestly does not need any introduction. Suffice to say to that, he is somebody that really we owe our efforts after Allah's blessings, we owe our efforts, the entire masajid communities, MSA is its PNAS. Every single Islamic activism that is now mashallah Baraka Allah, so

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involved in North American scene, these these activities, they go back to a core group of people, many of those core groups Subhanallah, they have moved on from this world, Dr. Jamal is that hamdulillah alive and healthy with us. And I have been trying for so long to get an interview with him so that we do not forget the sacrifices of our pioneers, so that we can always remember put into our legacies, what these early activists and founders did, and I'm very, very honored that Dr. Jamal is somebody that I consider to be a mentor. If I say a friend I feel awkward because he's so much senior to me, but Allah he his humility and his humbleness. He interacts with me and with others as

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if we are friends, even though he is my father's age or maybe even a little bit older than my father. So I'm very, very honored to have Dr. Jamal Badawi Dr. Jamal JazakAllah khair for agreeing to this interview is our common law higher and especially in your over generous introduction. I am only just a humble servant of Allah and that's in itself. A great honors. The Zack Allah Hiren Alhamdulillah. Dr. Jamal, how young are you today?

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I'm 8181 years old, and

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gives me a life too early November would be 82. But so far, it's at one Alhamdulillah Alhamdulillah Dr. Jamal, we are going to ask you a series of questions. And if you want to go right or left or add or increase, it's no big deal. These are not set in stone. But we wanted to know more about us. I'm going to begin from the beginning. I want you to summarize for me your upbringing in Egypt. And where did you study? And how did you get involved in Islamic activism in Egypt? Who, who influenced you? You know, when you were growing up? You know, as a young man, who do you who did you look up to? And what was your relationship back then as well with the you know, movements and especially

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with the icons of Egyptian you know, Islamic movements? Who did you meet and who influenced you? So that's our first question. I started from the narrow was circular. My parents, may Allah bless their soul, there.

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Were both good practicing Muslims.

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My father was an efficient fashion in a sense of

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servant you know, government servant in some position.

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Our family was, you might say, lower middle class in the financial sense that we tend to think about, but Alhamdulillah

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a great deal of tribute goes to them.

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At one point, the children were 28 brothers and four sisters. Now that is down to

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Yeah, I need

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two sisters and four brothers. That's life. What I was very much influenced by that.

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In this smallest circuit.

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My father may Allah bless his son had a few books at home. But I got very much attracted after the Quran with the Sahaba Harry because

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was available to me. So I love to read. That's the smallest circuit.

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The second grade influence

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was a result of our house being almost across almost across a message it

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I take permission as a very young boy young five, six from my father to pray in the masjid encouraged me to go.

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And one time.

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I can imagine the age at that time if I don't remember it, but

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I went to the masjid and was Maghreb time. So after I prayed mother, getting ready to go home, I noticed that the Imam was sitting on a little church, you know, like to find the Mokra, the decipher of the Quran many questions.

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And as people were finishing son, they started sitting in circle or half circle around him. I was sitting almost next to him.

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And apparently, he was wondering, What's that little boy doing here in the masjid? Instead of playing Cora Sharabi, Ross's kids used to get a sock

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play in the street or smaller streets around with the other kids. So he thought I'm just

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passing time. So he looked at me. And he said, What did I say?

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I told them exactly what he said. So apparently said that's that that guy seemed to be really interested in the

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this lessons, his lessons were. Unfortunately, you won't find that in many mosques today, daily between Malaysia and Asia.

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So I kept coming back over and over again, try never to miss except an exceptional circumstances.

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His approach was simple because a lot of people sitting there also are simple people. It's a combination, but many people were in the center people, he had a good way of simplifying his teaching.

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He did some time with Syrah with Falco with the Quran, this sort of variety of topics. And that was quite helpful also, because you get a broader view.

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Another circle closer to that is that the Ministry of work that supervise the massage it in Egypt, they appoint like supervisors or you might say inspectors could be a high level scholar to visit some masjid and speak. That was a big event,

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to the point that I whenever I heard even that this Muslim scholar comes because he used to speak in a very nice way very attractive, that he is giving a talk tomorrow, for example, and another message are you I go after maghrib to listen to him so that I don't miss. So that was another

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with this upbringing, it was quite normal that when I went to high school, but high school in Egypt at that time, was like five years from today, the primary five

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years. Actually,

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that year was the last time that you have five and then they divided them differently. So I had to go to a very famous school OSI dia, which is just next to University of Cairo.

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So it was an early period that I want

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in this famous school. There was a little mustard, not musalla and he really good master and the entrance of the master. So the first thing of course came to my mind that's when Zahara time or us or after school. I would look for that Masjid to to go and pray there.

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And one day, and that was a third great influence.

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I found that one very nice Senior Brother, maybe he was in the final years of the High School. Very nice.

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And Denton. So he stood up and he said, we don't have to work for those who are empty.

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not pushing.

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So I stood up. And in this talk

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it just,

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it was carved in my heart. In essence, he was very direct and precise. Talking as to how Muslims when they followed Islam, they really had great influence on Islam. Sorry, on humanity, and of course, on the spread of Islam

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and how they reached the tie, it's unprecedented, and how they started deviating from the teaching of Islam, bringing,

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you know,

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you might say problems to themselves and to humanity. And that our task as young people really should try to restore that glory of, of Islam and bring

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the benefit of Islam and its mercy to the rest of the world, not only to Muslims,

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this few,

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what year is this roughly? Okay, I graduated from high schools in 1960. So that must have been somewhere between 55 and 60. But it might probably be closer to 255 56.

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So that was very, very

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influential, it's almost like in a simple were way, for a young man, it's a strategy for the future really, or determination of the direction that we really should pursue.

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So I kept coming, but that then he announced also, that in the break between classes, you know, is even in winter, it is so warm, so we go out in a given place, and in the campus of the of the school,

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to take that break, 15 minutes, and so on. And somebody say something useful. So we go on stand enjoying the sunshine, even in January.

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Listen to some short, of course, you can't afford lectures, because the bell will ring for, to go back to classes. So that was an addition and almost daily, it kind of break whoever is interested in that. The advantage of this, of course, that some students didn't care much the mind, just wonder what are those guys doing? Stand on the side, maybe many people began to embrace this kind of attitude and enthusiasm to serve the word of Allah. So that was another circle.

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And then

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I had, I found out that those guys we used to make this presentations belong to the one

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at that time, one had so many places, they call it Shaba like section in different parts in the same same city. So somebody invited me to go to one of those shortbreads I was very impressed. It was simply like renting a lower part of high rise, not very high. Like they are sort of apartment buildings.

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And I entered, I said is just a mosque. But I was very impressed that yes, you have a place for prayer. Secondly, they have a little area with sand for young people to play and exercise and so on.

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And then I go there is another room that's full of books and booklets. Many of them were like the writings of Hassan Al Banna, they Rama Kima

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I that's the part that I loved most. I saw Islam more of a dynamic thing which is attractive even to youth who didn't care much but it was a good way to present Islam and it's

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as much foreignness as possible.

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But because I love to read a lot

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I found that

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This little library was very, very interested I could go and read. Sometimes I, as I asked if I could borrow a booklet of something to it, I need the rights, you know, to keep a record of that. But then there was a very ingenious idea they came up with, they say, If anyone reads a book, and make a summary, not, of course, not Romanus book,

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small, small benefit,

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he can, we will give him a reward by giving him another book.

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That was a good game for me, because not only it encouraged me to read, because it's not really the reward that you get. And by the way, it's not like chocolates or anything, it's book, that's something that I loved so much.

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So I acquired quite a few

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of this books.

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If I fast forward, I found that being able to read a book, capture it and summarize concisely in some organized manner, was the way also, I used to do in my studies, in high school, in universities, and in preparing for lectures and talks.

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It academically, it was very helpful, because everybody knows when the exam is tomorrow, next week, and people scramble to read what they fail to read, or maybe start to read

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anew for something they neglected for three months, or whatever. So I, I always try to be prepared, because you don't have time to review. So many things in so many subjects, I make summaries, and I read the topics and any given subject, and summarize that. So that stuck with me, until very late in my career, even after he graduated from the University, in Dawa was also very, very useful and helpful to organize it for not just keep going

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back and forth.

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On some delay that Allah made me love reading. And of course, during the university time,

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I used to acquire books whenever I find it was very inexpensive at that time. So I just go around and libraries or even sometimes in the streets, even as Becchio place you can lots of people even putting their books on these in the street and sell them. So that was

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another circuit.

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The greatest influence on me for that period, and for many periods to follow was the writings. Number one of Hassan Al Banna,

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the way he presents Islam,

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optimistic ideas die.

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Emphasizing the the totality of the message of Islam and its comprehensiveness that had a great impact. He had several writings, some of which were like messages that he sent to the members of the organization throughout the country.

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But side by side with that also, there were some greats for kaha and scholars that also belong to one. And Jeff Alban, in his leadership, quality,

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asked each of them to write something in his field, for example, you probably heard about shall say it's a buck, of course.

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So he gave him that mandate to write a comprehensive book, in fact, you know, has been translated in many languages and was one of my still my main differences in matters of fact.

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She has Ali, Muhammad Ali, not

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a contemporary as Ali was very good in his attitude towards the Sierra of the Prophet SAW Salem, you know, writing in an analytical way, moving way.

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So he wrote for Coursera but he wrote many books also that deal with the contemporary issues, especially as people began

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To experience a more oppressive type of regimes, he wrote also about extra Korea who became it became a big fashion, socialism and many people would call on some scholars not only in Asia to say that struck me is Islam Islam, it's his truck and so on. We've gone through all he was a very critic, big great critic of some of those strengths about atheism is probably talk about so many things. And his books also became favorite. Chef, let me ask you, did you actually study with a shirtless daddy and say it's Sabbath? Do you one on one or no? No, no, no. I read, read and listen to lectures whenever I had the chance like and sometimes in camps. Okay. Who are the invite the

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scholars, for example, in one of them?

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There were several speakers, including a person that really touched me very much in terms of your scholarship. Dr. Abdullah

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Yeah, because of all that, yes, yes. Just that oh, the jungle doctor just out of his uncle. Yes. Exactly how to be too big volume, things about Islam, that criminal law in Islam

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is was thorough, and I listened to him also person, anyone that wasn't in the camp, but not study like, person to person reading and listening to lectures. And of course, there came a time where

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some recording came into the markets, especially the hot mess, shift desk.

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Very moving.

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Yeah, I mean, as an auditor in a person, that my wife and I, whenever we hear him even tips now we say, speaks from the heart and his words come so high to the heart. Some people might say maybe the fact is, is that we're not to submit that doesn't affect his great impact. No. Yeah.

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So, there was also a scholar,

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doctor and behavioral holy, he was very interested in women's issue and he was ahead of his time. And he wrote also about, about that subject, even though the reference that I consider to be the most comprehensive and based on

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not only the Quran, but a huge amount of sound. A hadith is Helene abou Shaka, six volume work on this called the Hurrian model Muslimah theosophy, I decided it might have been translated, I'm not not, I don't know, that's liberating the Muslim woman at the period of reseller. Of course,

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he disagreed with some of the attitudes pertaining to the the position of woman in Islam, that was based largely on cultures other than the Islam from its pure sources. So this is just an example of the kind of schools that i

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However, later in my career,

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not much later, but

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the great impact of shocking Yusuf Qaradawi Yes.

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In fact, I had the pleasure and honor

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of traveling sometimes or attending conferences where he speaks

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in my little way he like for me to translate. It tells me your translation is not just translation you translate the spirit of

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the same thing was Dr. Masuri. Gets scholar holidays in Syria.

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He was translating but of course he didn't know English, but he tells me what I see that you so enthusiastic.

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RDL Corazon de Amina Lamb of the International gorgeous Yes, observed something of that. I did not did not act anything just what I feel. I

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did you ever cross paths with a photo of himself because in the 50s and he was active traveling?

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I might have heard him at some conference.

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or camp. But my memory is a bit hazy on that. But his brother Mohammed got listened to him

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quite a few times. And even later, when he went to Saudi Arabia, I was on a conference. Also, he gave a lecture. He's very good also on the matter of Serbia, and so on.

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So this word like some of the giants that had a great impact on me

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during the university, period, because I graduated in 1960. So I entered it's four years study.

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Actually, I was a student of commerce related to Java.

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During that time, as you know, there was there were many tragic things for the Islamic movement, field people, some of my companions even were arrested. And they tell me about the barbaric tortures in prison.

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Now, las Panatela, rewards them and make them multi scalar. There has an ad, however, still with right to meet whoever can mean to study or honors? Yeah, is it small Halaqa. But very careful, of course, I'm not saying too much in in public, it's amazing

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how people act under oppression, the severity of limitations on what they can or can do or say. So we still continue in, in a very quiet way. Shared more, you worried about your own safety? Was there a prop probability possibility of you being arrested as well? Absolutely, some of the people I know,

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were arrested. But many of them actually were arrested in my ATM 1964 65. By that time, I was already out of the country. Because after my graduation 1960

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I worked for three years in a major company, and our imports and exports

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I like the word can management, like my word, but then came an opportunity to apply for graduate study in the US. I said,

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that's an apply,

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not going to lose anything, I have a job already.

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I applied, and I was amazed that I was among those chosen.

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So, you know, comparing with athmosphere in Egypt at that time, I didn't want to miss that. So it was in 1963, that I actually left to the United States

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to study at Indiana University belong to

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but before I reached the campus, actually, they had

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For many international students in

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University of Kansas in Lawrence, it's a beautiful, huge campus. So, with the orientation included, you know, language, we have to do our research part because for something that is rare in even in the university level in Egypt, and to know the culture, sometimes they take us to visit families and so on. Anyway,

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for that reason, I left

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in the summer action for that orientation. In the same time, my wife also was granted a

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scholarship to study in UK.

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So of course, she went to the

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Bessette you know, this department that supervise

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scholarships abroad. And of course, they were sympathetic at that time, of course, husband and wife you cannot be married for so many years by correspondence. So Alhamdulillah

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they choose her scholarship to be in Indiana also in the same university. So that was very helpful. For that reason actually is

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Right before her because, you know, it took some time for her to get through the paperwork and so on.

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And the orientation center was limited to people who have a particular scholarship.

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And that brings me to presence in the United States. So she's gonna You came summer of 1963 to America, correct? Yeah, that's right. SubhanAllah. So now we move on to the next phase of your life now, from being a student from having been influenced by these giants really over the 50s and 60s, how do they rename you mentioned as a legend. And then I also believe ALLAH other saved you from before the crackdown began because the crocodile was 6465 was very harsh. And Allah saved you 63. You came here, crocodile and also 1954 When I was in Egypt, that's why

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my, my late elder brother

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in law,

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who died recently,

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he was arrested also, for some time. Now, I think he escaped the they came to inspect the house, but he escaped before that. And he went to some tribe

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away some relatives of us, and he had to work that does not identify him as offending from university graduate of the University of anything.

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In any case,

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the big

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day really was the day where my wife

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arrived, of course,

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we weren't received, because some people heard about us. We were received by some some of the people, early people who are studying before us in Bloomington, Indiana.

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So they received us. And one of them invited us for

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lunch in his house, very generous and invited. So the good chance to

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meet with senior students before us.

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But then came another issue. As soon as I arrived at Bloomington. Even before that, for example, when you were in Lawrence, Kansas, a few months before that.

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I could not imagine that I cannot reach them. So I just looked around. And I found that among the batch of students and that rotation were Muslim.

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So we talked about that together. So we can take permission of using this on meeting horn to do our Jama.

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They were cooperative. He could not say no. So we did our job as as long as we were there. The same feeling was even powerfully felt

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in Bloomington, because the first thing I thought of what is drama, there was no message. No even Zoia for prayer, nothing.

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I went to the office of the supervisor, someone who was in charge the dean of foreign students.

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And I learned that they're among the international students

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in the university, the word 1000 People not Muslim, I mean, in general.

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But Indiana University at that time was 35,000 and the main campus so it is not an IT WAS a preferred press for many foreign students.

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So I try somehow to get some list

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of Muslim students or look at less than pick Muslim names and so on.

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And it was a big challenge. How would you communicate you're still new and university.

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So I made a tiny little invitation, determining a place to meet so that we can arrange to have drummer

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we met I started distributing that we then campus man if I can show that straight and whenever I couldn't, so I just grow with the Muslim addresses. I put it under the doors there are disseminating the information. And I pray that someone will respond.

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Let me pause you here. I want our our viewers to hear that.

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Sherif Ali, I'm sorry for pressing the Send. But you're arriving. Of course, there's no email. There's no phone system even at the time, you literally look at a list of names with addresses, and you write an invitation that to come for first salatu. Juma and you go to houses and you put it in the mailbox, correct? Yes, they are. Sometimes, they say they have come a huge campus, so there are students residence. So that was a good place also to distribute. So how many people showed up your first jomashop?

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I don't a number. Actually, we met first to discuss. Okay. Kazuma How do we do? Jim, of course, you did have to sell the idea that we should have German

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should interest we had two options. One the the university have a place called the International House. It's almost like Students Union, we had functions of made celebrations and so on. So that was an option. But then it is not that close to the center of the campus. And our Friday, people might have courses, we discovered that on the university campus donor, it is land, it's University land, but our donor actually established a chapter it's called back chapter Bck. But it is not the denomination, it has nondenominational I should say.

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And any one want I wanted to book it for any religious function. It was a very awkward man like

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multi multi faith, you might say they said good. Of course we had no interest in the upper part with the pews and all of that. But in the basement there was quite a reasonable space. So we chose that because it's like I said, right in the middle of the main building

00:37:05 --> 00:37:10

of the campus so that's how it started and then we go together

00:37:11 --> 00:37:15

the first Friday after we decided to meet there

00:37:17 --> 00:37:17

and sit there

00:37:19 --> 00:37:21

and I say one anybody

00:37:22 --> 00:37:31

please to make Hotmail because I know my English was so cold it's still poor by the way, but was productive at the time very hard

00:37:35 --> 00:37:36

look around

00:37:37 --> 00:37:42

number one Jamarcus simple any anyone do

00:37:43 --> 00:37:44

this have you do?

00:37:47 --> 00:37:59

You get the poorest person in knowledge. The poorest in English, and I never gave hope not before except the hotbar when I married my wife better different money

00:38:00 --> 00:38:00

like that was

00:38:03 --> 00:38:04

you do it?

00:38:05 --> 00:38:10

I said, Oh, okay. Something kid maca

00:38:11 --> 00:38:23

to do that for either. It's good that I read before that hot by simply the set. cybercafes the different views from different massage. I took this

00:38:25 --> 00:38:30

shares that might have been the first salatu Juma in the state of Kentucky ever

00:38:31 --> 00:38:34

successful Indiana, Indiana, Indiana.

00:38:36 --> 00:38:39

I cannot say for sure, but

00:38:41 --> 00:38:45

belong to is a huge place of gathering of

00:38:46 --> 00:39:25

foreign students or international students. So I haven't heard really, within the state itself. Have any other Jama. So my focus was in that so it may it might have been the first one. Sure. Any ideas? How many students were there roughly? Like 1520 Give us some idea if you're able to Yeah, but probably 15 to 20 would be a reasonable estimates because my memory doesn't go that far. Yeah, it was something like a small gathering but mashallah, it says yes, they got people from Indonesia and Arab countries, Pakistan and so on.

00:39:27 --> 00:39:31

So we finished the Jama poor as it may be

00:39:33 --> 00:39:36

and yeah, anybody want to do the hot by next Gemma, you do

00:39:37 --> 00:39:54

have a lot of water in Lola. It was a blessing in disguise. Why? Because I had two challenges for Agnes and four knowledge, but at least some background from the Messiah that I read for him.

00:39:55 --> 00:39:59

So I accepted and I knew that I had to go to the library

00:40:00 --> 00:40:26

And when I finished with my assignment, I got the library, by the way at that time was involved in a program of exchange of books, like books published in Egypt, they send copies to Indiana University, and vice versa. So I go there in the library and divers stand when I went to the center, the Islamic books,

00:40:28 --> 00:40:48

several copies of Sahaba, some older editions, a more than one edition Muslims that set the sahaja bear books about Sierra both an Arabic and English mashallah, I was flabbergasted. And Subhan. Allah, I used to just like sit on the floor

00:40:49 --> 00:40:56

in a given section, especially in books that deal with contemporary issues in some or others for that matter.

00:40:57 --> 00:41:24

And try and look at this, look at that. Zero on something that could be a topic I read in the library itself, because I could finish with that, and going click another book. So that was, like I say, it was a blessing in disguise, even at that time. Yeah, and it was a big burden in a way to prepare, but hamdulillah through that one can learn

00:41:25 --> 00:41:27

a little bit more.

00:41:28 --> 00:41:29

And now

00:41:32 --> 00:41:35

the following stage, I missed part three,

00:41:37 --> 00:41:56

the establishment of the MSA, I was not really of the very early group that started the idea of MSA because they met for the first time in the summer that I wasn't in Lawrence, Kansas.

00:41:57 --> 00:42:07

And I heard about it by chance. So some of my new friends Muslim friends in Indiana, in Bloomington.

00:42:08 --> 00:42:15

They said oh, that was a meeting you missed, I said was that they say late in the summer there was

00:42:16 --> 00:42:26

a conference small conference very small in Champaign, Illinois, Champaign, Illinois, from Bologna. This is a drivable distances not that far.

00:42:28 --> 00:42:51

And somehow, I'm not sure how I got to know the name of Matt Sacra laid out not to let him as that was, perhaps they did not consider it really the first convention? I don't know. Because it was almost like meeting and saying how can we expand activities and organized other

00:42:53 --> 00:42:58

chapters in the area because still Illinois in the Midwest, so

00:42:59 --> 00:43:02

at least, so that was the one that I missed, but

00:43:04 --> 00:43:14

from 1964 was my first involvement. I traveled to Champaign, we met

00:43:15 --> 00:43:35

representatives, but it wasn't really that national. It was intended to be that national but in reality, giving the facilities and resources we have you know, poor students and so on, you don't get the issue of flying to give talks and so on that was that was it

00:43:36 --> 00:43:52

you didn't have the money to do that right at that time, but exactly as a students, whatever Listen, we can do so you took the bus, the Greyhound, how did you get there, all the students mostly Greyhound until when I got a car, an old car,

00:43:53 --> 00:43:58

Volkswagen 5054 or something like

00:44:02 --> 00:44:22

that. So that's where I met my talk. And a few find people Mashallah. He was the Dynamo he didn't become the president immediately, even though he should have been but he was a humble person also. But he was the Dynamo in organizing, that

00:44:23 --> 00:44:39

I still keep some of my correspondence with him at that time. Subhan Allah, may Allah bless him and people with this amazing energy. I mean, I mean, he was a graduate student studying the food technology and things are food chemistry.

00:44:42 --> 00:44:43

And he, he was

00:44:44 --> 00:44:48

single at that time, living in a small apartment

00:44:49 --> 00:44:50


00:44:51 --> 00:44:53

Champaign Urbana just like a twin city.

00:44:57 --> 00:44:57

So he

00:44:58 --> 00:44:59

during the week of

00:45:00 --> 00:45:13

Horse, he is busy working in the lab and this and that. Come Friday, he takes the ground bus to some other place and cancers here are the beginning, Hammond was quite a big

00:45:15 --> 00:45:52

network, huge network goes there an arranger of some at least contract person. And explain to them the MSA and its objective and see if they're interested in having a chapter and people were very responsive because that answer your earlier question about how many places have Juma has and when you go to campuses and there is no Muslim organization. That was a big feat. He might even on Saturday and Sunday be in some other places arriving exhausted

00:45:54 --> 00:46:05

to go to his classes Monday morning SubhanAllah. And that was the pattern for other people who volunteered to

00:46:06 --> 00:46:47

to do the show just laying the found where the the foundations and the groundwork chair Hola, Hey, I just want again our viewers to understand you and the people like yourself and Dr. Hamad soccer, literally taking the bus these days, yani all of us, may Allah forgive us, we're flying the airplanes were being met at the airport by fancy cars taking us to nice hotels, you literally would buy a greyhound ticket, sometimes, not even knowing if anybody is going to be there to pick you up at the bus station, maybe even making a phone call at the bus station. And then you nobody's paying you money, you're paying your own way. They're your own traveling on your own. And subhanAllah chef,

00:46:47 --> 00:47:05

I mean, that commitment, and that sincerity. And that joy that you did that we have to learn from from that sincerity and that efforts that Subhanallah how the situation has changed about Alicia. So I'm giving you an example. Also other people who sacrifice a lot

00:47:07 --> 00:47:09

we used to, I was part of

00:47:10 --> 00:47:17

the NSA in general, and also the executives in some form, what we call the executive.

00:47:18 --> 00:47:33

And we used to meet in a central place. And that was a runner. And that's why not soccer also was instrumental in that. And you know, where we meet in his apartment.

00:47:34 --> 00:47:38

The if we're meeting like for a few days, we all sleep

00:47:39 --> 00:47:55

blankets on the floor or whatever food he say, alright, here is the fridge and some some time getting leftovers and mix it together and eat. So it was to me better than the five star hotels

00:47:57 --> 00:48:02

being together, eating together sleeping, discussing taking decisions and so on.

00:48:04 --> 00:48:50

I think so, this is where the MSA and then eventually it's not and then all Islamic activism. It began in the living rooms of people like Dr. Ahmed soccer. Yes, yes. Subhan Allah SubhanAllah. Of course, later on have come came Islamic Society of North America because it began to spread quite a bit. So it became not only regionally became really like national and Muslims are jumping 20 years ahead. It's not anywhere on the picture right now. This is still the MSA we're talking about. So let me ask you a question. Sure. And before we get to that, as isn't a vision, your goal at this stage? Let's go back to 1965 6768 your vision at this stage? Are you planning to return to Egypt? Or do you

00:48:50 --> 00:49:12

want to stay in America? What is your long term vision as a you know, as a Muslim and studying higher education in America? Initially, initially, the intention was to finish the study and go and teach and actually there was one university in Egypt already that I was supposed to be teaching.

00:49:15 --> 00:49:27

So that's and that was by the way, the intention of a lot of people want to come to the issue of evolution of various organization. So that was initially the case. But then

00:49:29 --> 00:49:36

unbothered Nasser's regime, it would be suicidal, really, to go back on hand Allah.

00:49:38 --> 00:49:41

Because at that time, the net

00:49:42 --> 00:49:47

was Yani much, much bigger.

00:49:48 --> 00:49:51

So anyone, anyone

00:49:53 --> 00:49:56

who, like I'm talking about 6465

00:49:57 --> 00:49:59

Anyone who knows

00:50:01 --> 00:50:09

Anyone who was in when he was not a member if they catch him, they were so

00:50:10 --> 00:50:17

all embracive and anyone with a food that is one to the point, that one time

00:50:19 --> 00:50:38

Muslim had a Christian friend, and they go and arrested him. I said, my name is Hannah, I'm across the hall come you, you're lying to us. And he went with them to the prison. And so some of the mistreatment until much later than

00:50:39 --> 00:50:41

they realize that they're,

00:50:42 --> 00:50:47

they're crazy. They were arresting a Christian member of one Muslim

00:50:49 --> 00:51:03

Subhanallah so they were brutal. Leave us even who doesn't have any to do anything to do with the organization, we're all adjusted. So it was quite clear.

00:51:04 --> 00:52:06

And you can service land better really having already been established, learn the language and then some types of data also, it's better for the data itself even then, serving time in prison one should not seek as the professor himself you don't see war but you don't turn away if you have to defend yourself but you don't throw yourself in to attend us this one. Also always think that may Allah reward those who kept the fortitude in spite of the amazing me what a variety of meanings of torture and pain for one also it's a Yeah, Allah, nano IV Sanic. Now I read them to Hynek era. And I feel for myself that under pressure, I may crack so Allah and don't put me to the hardest, because I

00:52:06 --> 00:52:44

need your son and Marissa. Shana, when did you move to Canada? And why did you choose to go to her? Was there a conscious decision to leave us here in America and go to Canada or was just job opportunities? How did that come about? But there is a gap. I think that we need a need to connect take us back. Okay. The questions about now because that's something in my blood. Okay. Bismillah go for it. Bismillah I go back even to 1964 65 just within the first year, okay, I want to balloon gluten.

00:52:46 --> 00:52:54

For some reason one church heard that you know, they could be someone available to speak about Islam.

00:52:55 --> 00:53:10

So they invited me Allah for giving all sorts try my best to is very difficult language to communicate the essence of the message of Islam but mashallah they were all attentive and

00:53:12 --> 00:53:22

seem to enjoy knowing at that time, there wasn't that much hostility. You know what Muslims, many people were very receptive.

00:53:24 --> 00:53:31

So, they sent me a check, I think $100 per subject, whatever it is,

00:53:33 --> 00:53:34

as an honorarium.

00:53:35 --> 00:53:59

I sent it back and they say, thank you very much. I appreciate but I'd rather if that amount can be used to make copies of my presentation, written presentation they did, and they printed it on our no so how to distribute the considered like, education about world religions and some

00:54:01 --> 00:54:03

about Dawa.

00:54:04 --> 00:54:11

You know, there are a variety of ways that took place when you talk about Esna. And it's spread

00:54:12 --> 00:54:17

throughout the country, throughout North America, the continent in fact.

00:54:23 --> 00:54:29

They're, of course, the one major factor, or the thing that you don't hear much about it.

00:54:30 --> 00:54:46

You hear out somebody accepted this. You find out that he probably was a colleague to some person in his class or neighbor or whatever. People were quite often. So Jani, there were words going around with this.

00:54:47 --> 00:54:52

Secondly, on campuses, like for example, in Bloomington,

00:54:54 --> 00:54:57

and various occasion that might attract students,

00:54:58 --> 00:54:59

whether celebration or ad

00:55:00 --> 00:55:01

fits on this and that.

00:55:03 --> 00:55:31

We make food, families provide food and so on and everybody's invited. And by way of just introducing them to the occasion, if you're talking about idle fit, it can talk our testing, and it's Hackman so on. So in a way, this will, in direct terms of our, that are predicated on certain occasions, historical or, or otherwise.

00:55:32 --> 00:55:32


00:55:36 --> 00:55:48

through various conventions, a lot of people used to come, Muslims and others. And oftentimes you hear about people just being so impressed with that they accepted Islam.

00:55:49 --> 00:55:50

In camps.

00:55:51 --> 00:56:34

For example, there was a very famous camp in California, that used to attract a lot of people from across the country in the summer, and there was both education and recreation. So in other words, the word variety of approach the publication's of pamphlets or booklets that also was quite helpful. So. So Bishop, let me ask you as well, at this stage and the 19, mid 1960s, of course, the Nation of Islam is still in its old theology and ideology. Was there any link at all any relationship any visiting between the Nation of Islam members and between the 60s MSA?

00:56:36 --> 00:56:39

Yes, during the life of Elijah Muhammad.

00:56:41 --> 00:56:45

Somehow A decision was taken that delegation from MSA.

00:56:47 --> 00:56:48

It was a silly MSA

00:56:49 --> 00:56:56

to visit him in his house in Honolulu. First time hearing of the show, this is very interesting.

00:56:58 --> 00:57:01

We were aware of course of the teaching,

00:57:02 --> 00:57:12

but maybe it was decided that it's a good idea to link because this might have question marks about many things.

00:57:14 --> 00:57:14


00:57:15 --> 00:57:18

proclaim themselves to be muslims and

00:57:20 --> 00:57:20

so on.

00:57:23 --> 00:57:23


00:57:25 --> 00:57:55

that visit, actually, there were very few people and many of those who are presidents have gone to Allah's Montana. So I feel if I explain it a little bit, that it might be helpful. Were you there? Yeah. So you visited Elijah Muhammad? Yes. With him delegation. SubhanAllah. Chef, this is historic chef, you have to go into as much detail as you can remember. Okay. We went there.

00:57:57 --> 00:57:58

And sure Hanalei has

00:58:00 --> 00:58:09

peaceful in uniform, almost like an having an army uniform. Yes, hierarchy. And very clean.

00:58:10 --> 00:58:17

disciplined. shows a very politely received us outside, now I can in the waiting

00:58:19 --> 00:58:21

it waiting area.

00:58:22 --> 00:58:30

And then finally, we're invited to enter the dining, huge dining room.

00:58:31 --> 00:58:33

And he's sitting at the head of the table.

00:58:35 --> 00:58:36


00:58:37 --> 00:58:42

can you he's starting giving us good advice about healthy food.

00:58:43 --> 00:58:55

You're like eating whole wheat is very good. Avoid this and very sound. At that time, the organization was very resourceful.

00:58:56 --> 00:59:13

They have pro card decks of their own, you know, and they distributed so it's in a way it's business and it's healthy food also, they circulate. Anyway, so he kept talking and talking and talking about that.

00:59:17 --> 00:59:20

So far, we haven't spoken about the more important thing really.

00:59:22 --> 00:59:28

So Dr. Ahmed to turn to you one of the giants also the elements.

00:59:31 --> 00:59:34

Initiative initiated, saying something

00:59:35 --> 00:59:38

Yani somehow

00:59:41 --> 00:59:46

prodding him to reconsider some of their thoughts.

00:59:47 --> 00:59:59

The man who was very gentle and very, a really good politician. He didn't make arguments or anything. So you know what they mean?

01:00:00 --> 01:00:09

Did he let it let it go? Well it was a nice meal and everything but the least was

01:00:10 --> 01:00:12

linking and some

01:00:13 --> 01:00:20

but that paves the way for something major that took place after he passed away

01:00:21 --> 01:00:25

without getting into the details as to who might have been

01:00:27 --> 01:00:33

succeeded Elijah Muhammad but prior to is this

01:00:35 --> 01:00:49

what is the Muhammad Ali a lot about how he went to Egypt and also studied as horrors some she learned something about true

01:00:50 --> 01:00:51


01:00:53 --> 01:01:00

so when his father died actually almost like appointed him that you know, to succeed him

01:01:01 --> 01:01:07

what is the Muhammad was a very smartly that

01:01:09 --> 01:01:16

he knew we know that because we dealt with him and we'll tell you later when he had more close relations

01:01:19 --> 01:01:25

he knew that the various Imams at that time they were called ministers

01:01:26 --> 01:01:38

and by the way something also many people may not realize the they first in the month of December Yeah. Which is very smart of course make it easy.

01:01:41 --> 01:01:42

And salah

01:01:43 --> 01:01:49

they it's almost like churches like the the big massive yes, they like pillows and everything.

01:01:50 --> 01:02:16

And when the hottie make the hot bath, right? Hon a man sees any man in the middle of the hotbar Oh, yeah. Yeah, it's sort of very interactive, very interactive. I attended one of those. I kept quiet. That's what she stood up and say you people are doing this, are

01:02:17 --> 01:02:27

you losing gifts? So I said, this is not the main issue, when they new to Islam, Inshallah, other things will follow.

01:02:29 --> 01:02:36

There were some ideas also that were highly objectionable, but everybody accepted that,

01:02:38 --> 01:02:40

that the whites are devils.

01:02:41 --> 01:02:46

And the blacks are angels, and they have judgment will begin in America.

01:02:48 --> 01:03:01

That have been even some illusion that when you say Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, many people interpret that Elijah Muhammad Yeah, not explicitly, but sort of illusion credit.

01:03:05 --> 01:03:23

But then came the era of wireless, the legacy was very smart. Everybody believed in certain thing, they were all discipline. And Eliza's figure for them was Yani all almost like a status of a prophet or something of that nature.

01:03:24 --> 01:03:45

I am trying to read this action. Apparently, he said that if I tell people No, no, this is wrong Islam. No, no, no, no, no, no, let me tell you what is right. They would have rebelled against Him, and nobody would have listened to him. But you know what he said, he said that my father

01:03:46 --> 01:04:02

did a great deal for the black people. He gave them the sense of dignity, and this and that and that what I am only continuing is his way. Also in

01:04:03 --> 01:04:08

arriving, it was a stage in coming, really to the understanding of through Islam.

01:04:10 --> 01:04:12

That was very smart.

01:04:14 --> 01:04:16

Because he didn't attack you he praised him even.

01:04:18 --> 01:04:33

Okay. But then came a time where he felt there's some move, because among the followers of Elijah Muhammad also was the pharaohs. Imam Suraj EHEDG. You know,

01:04:35 --> 01:04:45

who actually opted for traditional, this Islam and another influential person,

01:04:46 --> 01:04:55

hegemonic Chavez was known as Malcolm X. He also broke with Eliza

01:04:57 --> 01:04:59

when he went to Hajj Of course, if you see that oh,

01:05:00 --> 01:05:32

A biography of Malcolm X. And he was so impressed when he speaks about it used to speak a racist term before and whether it's white racism or black racism. He said I was struck, where I find the white from Turkey the darkest from Africa in the in between Arabs. All the same. Equal in love with one another.

01:05:33 --> 01:05:40

No position. No, this nodded. It touches him so deeply. But of course, details are

01:05:41 --> 01:05:51

all available in his autobiography. So he came back really a change, man. You never met Malcolm? Right? Because you came after him? Yeah, yeah.

01:05:57 --> 01:06:52

Do you remember when he was assassinated? 64? Right. 60 was it? I will look it up. Right now. I should know this date. Yeah, yes. 65. February 65. Yeah, so I was, I was in the US. But I didn't meet him personally. But I hear also some of his hot buzz panela was amazing. Man. I need to do all that. And there is a question, a controversial question that I don't want to get into, as to who indeed was behind. Yes, that's another topic altogether. Yeah, that's a different topic and may not be useful to dwell. Let's share I want this i before you move on. I mean, your meeting with Elijah, it went amicably. And perhaps Perhaps it was one of the factors that caused him to put water in in

01:06:52 --> 01:07:13

charge, because he knew this as the rumors that he knew what it did how to convert it to mainstream Islam. And he chose Why did it need to be his successor? So it could be it could be because some literature also was sent by Esna. You know, to them, so that might have been helpful.

01:07:15 --> 01:07:27

Yeah, subhanAllah one thing also that that happened that what is now Farrakhan notes later, I'm fast forwarding. Yeah.

01:07:28 --> 01:07:41

Farrakhan when he started to show some, some degree of flexibility, invited some of us also from in the same house.

01:07:44 --> 01:07:45


01:07:46 --> 01:07:47

I think it was Yeah.

01:07:49 --> 01:07:50

Not positive.

01:07:52 --> 01:07:56

But he sat with us, just like small group.

01:07:58 --> 01:08:07

And there was discussion, open discussion, but we didn't get into like criticizing or anything, because you want to win him also.

01:08:10 --> 01:08:11

But he seemed to have

01:08:13 --> 01:08:19

waver the little bits between sticking to the old ideas and

01:08:22 --> 01:08:25

changing relative but said, All right, in fact,

01:08:26 --> 01:08:36

the leadership of the Esna decided to or brought actually as a gift for him. The various my humble little tips.

01:08:38 --> 01:08:54

Like I think like 11 albums, 16 tapes, each for variety of topics. I said, Alright, if he's interested, he can listen, maybe. But so far, I don't know. Not up to date about about 10 as it has not changed from the old school.

01:08:56 --> 01:09:10

Yeah, yeah. But he was very courteous. We are like, we don't want to have any more enemies. Maybe Allah subhanaw taala has his ways maybe. So that was But the greatest thing that came

01:09:11 --> 01:09:18

to really help change the organization when what is Dean felt that people now might be ready.

01:09:21 --> 01:09:31

He invited us. Us here is like the was the head of the our center, Islamic teaching center,

01:09:32 --> 01:09:33

a brother from Sudan.

01:09:35 --> 01:09:38

The it journey about abuse theory.

01:09:39 --> 01:09:39

He was

01:09:41 --> 01:09:48

very tall brother, very charismatic. And he established personal relation with what is Dean.

01:09:50 --> 01:09:59

so few of us went there and he said, I want you to help us teach our Imams our

01:10:01 --> 01:10:21

Ministers as they are called about bit teaching of Islam collected, and we arranged through our organization center places like Kansas and Chicago and others, whereby, if you can provide us with some scholars to teach those Imams

01:10:24 --> 01:10:31

the one that I really remember more vividly, I might have participated also more than one place

01:10:32 --> 01:10:42

was the one in Chicago in the house of Elijah Muhammad himself, hon Allah, so they provided us accommodation in his house.

01:10:43 --> 01:10:46

Okay. And then people gathered

01:10:48 --> 01:10:49

the first lesson

01:10:51 --> 01:10:59

we entered and they're all sitting and behind them and also that they tell me some insignificant but it shows the mindset

01:11:01 --> 01:11:05

and that it is a lesson and ours gentleness and graduates

01:11:06 --> 01:11:09

so they were all sitting very disciplined.

01:11:11 --> 01:11:13

And we're sitting there as you know, the speaker's

01:11:15 --> 01:11:18

pictorama de la sun and ironic to learn this.

01:11:21 --> 01:11:28

Dr. Mirza Muhammad Mustafa Azami scholar of Hadith Yes, yes, yes. SubhanAllah. He was there too. Yeah. Wow.

01:11:30 --> 01:11:32

And then love the tequila.

01:11:33 --> 01:11:44

So they stand up before the meeting, and raise their hands towards the huge picture of Elijah and recite whatever, something

01:11:46 --> 01:11:46

they sit down.

01:11:49 --> 01:11:49


01:11:50 --> 01:12:02

if you attend them, stop this Jay Haley things, of course, stop worshipping of individuals. Even if you sit in the most gentle state, you know,

01:12:03 --> 01:12:04

or even,

01:12:07 --> 01:12:49

you know, the, the gentlest response to that. You don't have any credibility with them? Of course, yeah. So he said, That's it. And then we talk and talk and talk. And indirectly, you know, give the right information rather than report the wrong one is, so that, but over the days, we teach them even salon drama and fasting and all of that, Mashallah. They were very, very responsive. I done to remember positive like maybe later on in the program, they stopped doing that.

01:12:50 --> 01:13:04

without anybody say, Don't do it, really. So that might be also a lesson for Tao. The priorities, what is the main issue now don't get drawn in a small detail.

01:13:06 --> 01:13:40

So that the law worked and the great majority actually of Imams, they join the traditional Islam, even those who remained under the leadership of Elijah of nowhere is Dean. He himself practice traditionalist. And at one point even he was elected in the Board of Trustees of Islamic Society of North America when it came into existence. Here is this by the way, so that we have an idea what year are we talking about? Roughly, when you when you when you taught them, and they were doing these things?

01:13:42 --> 01:14:18

It was very close to the death of 7677, roughly, something like that. Yeah. Yeah. And, by the way, for our viewers, Dr. Mr. Muhammad, Allah made the one he's talking about, he's the one who made the cover. Even Hosea, the one who won the King Faisal prize in 1979. That is one of the great scholars of Hades, even though as he told me initially he wasn't really Yeah, yeah, like, I had the honor to study with him for a while as well and interacted with this mashallah with very good friend in Mashallah. His son actually was helping to compete put his

01:14:20 --> 01:14:28

hobbies on computers VST Kata is why he won the king faceoff award and I think 79 or 80 Yeah.

01:14:30 --> 01:14:47

So, mashallah, you have been active literally for almost 60 years mashallah Tabata kala will lie and he had such a, I mean, may Allah bless you and give you any every single day for that infinity. What are people who did much better and actually honestly must say

01:14:49 --> 01:14:59

that there were giants also who did a lot among those who went to Allah subhanaw taala. A doctor asthma they call the used to be a regular speaker.

01:15:00 --> 01:15:10

Question about family and conventions. Jamal what reasons he wasn't traveling the commercial Islamic trust. And

01:15:11 --> 01:15:14

again, he was dead. He died in an accident

01:15:15 --> 01:15:16

in Sudan.

01:15:17 --> 01:15:25

Car accident. And who else? There is also? Ahmed Sakura mentioned of course, yes.

01:15:27 --> 01:15:37

And there are still some living persons who are have been quite active, like a Shem Tov, yes, yes, of course. Well, yes.

01:15:39 --> 01:15:39


01:15:41 --> 01:15:44

aquarium owners? Yes, of course about units as well, Michelle Yes.

01:15:45 --> 01:15:47

And so many insects

01:15:48 --> 01:16:14

does not is a beetle has reality. So the children have a very, very personal question, oh, you're, you're interacting with these legends, especially the ones that have moved on, I want to ask you out of those that have moved on any what? Or who amongst them really impressed you the most? And can you give us some personal anecdotes that you know, your interactions with them that caused you to feel that way about them?

01:16:15 --> 01:16:39

Not suck for sure. Because once I got new my way to him, and I wasn't the executive, we were in touch, and corresponding, and even his personal life care, he would say, oh, and he was planning to get married even. And he writes to me. So we're quite close, in this

01:16:41 --> 01:16:42

kind of interaction.

01:16:46 --> 01:16:52

Yeah, and you're like, I see, I still have some of the correspondence I have with him. Later, I

01:16:54 --> 01:16:57

was also impressed with his extreme devotion.

01:16:59 --> 01:17:16

Like I mentioned earlier, traveling, hosting us, and He did everything and all of that he doesn't want to be even in a position of leadership. Unless, at one time, of course, he was elected as the president, we must say

01:17:17 --> 01:17:57

he's the worst. And secondly, he was a gifted speaker also. Yes, he was very eloquent, and sometimes eloquent and, and humorous in some way. So he was something that you enjoy listening to him. I think that was one of the closest people to me. Sure. What do you miss about that era that the current era does not have? Like? What are some of the, like, where did you guys get it? Right? And we're getting it wrong, like what is something that you can tell us about that era that we're missing in our era of activism and our

01:18:03 --> 01:18:05

one is

01:18:06 --> 01:18:12

the devotion of a lot of people, not just a few, a lot of people. And then

01:18:14 --> 01:18:15


01:18:17 --> 01:18:30

to the best of my knowledge, I didn't detect anyone working for for any material benefit, or no fact there was a material benefit to distribute this real sacrifice.

01:18:32 --> 01:18:33

And when people

01:18:34 --> 01:18:43

do that, for no other purpose, hopefully are in general, but for the sake of Allah subhanaw taala. There was Baraka

01:18:44 --> 01:18:52

also, being smaller numbers, even as ISNA or MSA began to

01:18:54 --> 01:18:55


01:19:00 --> 01:19:22

The sense of camaraderie, and brotherhood choose our Islamic term love of one another, caring for one another, even their personal problems and so on, is something that you can't achieve when you have conventions as it grew later on. to 30,000 people.

01:19:23 --> 01:19:40

It was a good thing, of course, to meet some of the old faces and so on and find new but you get lost in that this is something that we missed, but it was an imperative really, as you expand that you can continue, even though in later years

01:19:41 --> 01:19:59

Esna conventions declined considerably in attendance, but there were also some organization that are defunct now, but had a huge impact at that time. Two of them, the Arab Muslim Association

01:20:00 --> 01:20:08

It was largely the loss of Arabic speaking a huge number of the who came to universities. And they don't, they don't have too much command in English.

01:20:10 --> 01:20:46

There's became rivals even it's either in the, in the negative sense, good competition, there were 1000s of pupils coming. And they used to be very strict, some, some, you know, apartment weddings or hotels are only for ladies. And so they were very strict until one time Chicago that the latest complained to him. So he led them in a march to go to the main hall in the area that was supposed to be for ladies, some of the organizations

01:20:48 --> 01:20:55

need to show them that this is not true. Islam really is modesty, there is separation, but

01:20:57 --> 01:21:01

so, so that changed a little bit in later years.

01:21:02 --> 01:21:11

And that was very inconvenient. Let for example, when a family goes to the convention, the husband is in one separate and apart

01:21:12 --> 01:21:24

hotel, the lady, usually with the children, how could you communicate with his wife? Is she taken? Can you take care of the kids? Sure, can I do this so that

01:21:25 --> 01:21:31

it became impractical, perhaps? Yeah, and either intention definitely was good.

01:21:32 --> 01:21:55

As compared to with conventions, like Islam, others, this was one organization. No, of course, with time passing and changes. It's, it's not long, but it used to have great influence, many great Allamah from the Middle East used to come including Canada with some of my safe from Saudi and others.

01:21:57 --> 01:22:00

But the other organization that still exists

01:22:02 --> 01:22:21

is Econet Islamic circle of North America. But it was done also not by waves breaking away, but also attracting people who are not attracted to the Esna especially, or the speaking and so on. But they kept the relationship and until,

01:22:22 --> 01:22:33

until now, as far as I know, there are places where they do their national convention jointly, either with MSA, regional or national

01:22:34 --> 01:22:46

or jointly with mess, mess many people consider to be sort of a one oriented Muslim Association, nice Muslim American society.

01:22:48 --> 01:22:56

The along with Akena they do also sometimes joint meetings I have been in some of these regional or, or national,

01:22:58 --> 01:23:04

it is still very successful organization. And I praise their efficiency and their

01:23:06 --> 01:23:20

activities in Dawa the, of course, being endowed yourself, you know, and appreciate what they're doing in terms of their production, especially material for children that are more attractive to kids.

01:23:22 --> 01:24:12

So that was that these were people who are worth he also mentioned of course, after that you get another groupings, but not posterizing. In addition to affiliation with any of these big organizations, they may have also Council of Imams that is very important, like in California and Chicago, Chicago, yes. And New York as well. Yes, a number of dozens and dozens of necessity so that coordination without all having a central organization to direct everything. I think that's a good approach. That's why we're they got it right there was as gap and the EC have first the early team.

01:24:14 --> 01:24:16

Some people call them time and

01:24:17 --> 01:24:18

money anyway.

01:24:19 --> 01:24:27

But then they did not. Were very busy. Of course with this expansion. They did not

01:24:29 --> 01:24:33

pay much attention for succession leadership succession.

01:24:35 --> 01:24:42

So we can't there came a period where you have either those the cold giants on one hand, and then

01:24:45 --> 01:24:52

a number of us who are not experienced or trained to succeed, the older generation.

01:24:53 --> 01:24:59

Secondly, there wasn't much attention given to strategic planning.

01:25:01 --> 01:25:07

I'm not saying that was that was totally missing. But it left a gap

01:25:09 --> 01:25:29

of group of people. But then attention was refocused again on the US and they had us organizations Hamdulillah. And they were successful in, you know, giving them training, training programs, in camps and so on. But that too, there was also to acknowledge what was right

01:25:30 --> 01:25:54

through the Board of Trustees of Esna, in which was also involved. There have been some times seminars with people in planning and strategic planning, like Dr. raffia bacon, for example, is pretty good. And that being a Muslim, specializing in that also.

01:25:55 --> 01:26:01

But like I say, there was a gap where there's not continuity of the same quality of

01:26:02 --> 01:26:39

performance SubhanAllah. So we these are things we need to think about vision planning, taking care of the next generation, strategy, strategy and leadership as well. That's a very, very important point, you recognize Paola, she has another aspect of your life that is very important for us to hear about is that you were involved with a number of fifth councils, the European fifth Council, you are also one of the fundamental or the fifth Council of North America. I'm very humbled to be a member with you now, even though you're so much senior to me and age SubhanAllah. But chef, can you tell us a bit about these councils and the vision of these councils, and again, some advice for us

01:26:39 --> 01:27:03

of the next generation, where should we take these councils, there was a press, you know, there was a precedent to to the council, under the MSA, even they had a committee they call it religious committee, like the termination of beginning and the Ramadan and so on. And for sure, lack of

01:27:04 --> 01:27:14

people who are qualified and willing, because some people might not be willing, somehow they asked me to do to change that. But that was like a committee.

01:27:16 --> 01:27:17


01:27:19 --> 01:27:20

at the present,

01:27:21 --> 01:27:29

the Federal Council of North America is an independent organization with its own bylaws, I think you're familiar with that the

01:27:30 --> 01:27:32

valued number yourself.

01:27:34 --> 01:27:45

But there have been that historical connection and until today, for example, when there is debate about beginning of Ramadan and aid and so on.

01:27:47 --> 01:28:05

ISNA actually differs normally to the the fourth chakra our opinion of the defector counter, so in a way, it's independent, but they still have some connection in that informal sense. As that's, that was one

01:28:07 --> 01:28:08

I must say.

01:28:10 --> 01:28:13

And I'm saying that truthfully, that

01:28:14 --> 01:28:16

as the circuit Council

01:28:18 --> 01:28:45

grew, and Alhamdulillah people who are 100 100 times more qualified than myself, including you, including Dr. resembles a deity and Dr. Sama by rule and many others became members. It was only perhaps the kindness of my brothers and sisters in the factory council to say use the army basically

01:28:46 --> 01:29:24

a relic from the past maybe it's well, why shall I say this to the other viewers out there? It's not a matter of book knowledge is a matter of experience and wisdom. It's a matter of being there and doing what needed to be done. Chef can do all of our activism and he after Allah azza wa jal, we thank your first foundational generation for laying the foundation for the shift. So I think our youngsters need to understand this that you cannot judge that generation they didn't come here have been been trained in Al Azhar and Medina and and and Islam about they came as engineers and doctors and they took out time from their schedule from their lives from their families feasibility law,

01:29:24 --> 01:29:59

that's something that is so so Allah he says I'm jealous of this sincerity that your generation had. We cannot even dream about a stock for the line I have to be again sufferer last year cannabis look at now the level that we are at in terms of we might or will be below our generation might have some more book knowledge but we seek Allah's refuge, look at the negatives, the scandals, look at other things that are happening. Your generation was free of this completely free of this because that was baraka and that was his loss. And that's something that Jani we can only thank you for and ask Eliza to give you just out for dinner.

01:30:00 --> 01:30:00


01:30:02 --> 01:30:12

I am the one who sank with the council. And I mentioned to you also about the European Council for another important reason I learned a lot

01:30:14 --> 01:30:24

through my Isetta in the council in discussion of various issues. And then I mentioned to you also that this is the same

01:30:25 --> 01:30:28

for the European Council of fatwa and research.

01:30:37 --> 01:30:40

A lot of stuff time, there is some there was a meeting

01:30:41 --> 01:30:47

of the European Council of flatland research in different countries, the rotated.

01:30:49 --> 01:30:59

And there was one I can tell you when that was my memory. But it's long time. There was a meeting in Valencia, Spain.

01:31:01 --> 01:31:06

And that custom was that if there is anyone that may be nominated,

01:31:08 --> 01:31:23

to join the Council. The Council is basically are all specialists, people with master's, at least bachelor and some PhD in Islam. Yeah, and we're talking about the real Allah, heavyweight Qaradawi, of course, was the

01:31:25 --> 01:31:26

man figure

01:31:27 --> 01:31:35

in Shanghai, Sal Malawi, and at one point, or other famous scholar. And

01:31:36 --> 01:31:51

so they what they do, is that there is strong indication of a few people, or one or two or whatever, to be nominated, to be added, because it's by invitation. In other words, nobody applies.

01:31:53 --> 01:31:54

Put me as own but

01:31:55 --> 01:32:00

so what do you do? I didn't discover that until later.

01:32:01 --> 01:32:08

Because that's what happened to me. They invited that a couple of people as observers, maybe sometimes even five, six.

01:32:12 --> 01:32:13


01:32:14 --> 01:32:17

what happened in that the Secretary

01:32:20 --> 01:32:23

of the organization, he said,

01:32:25 --> 01:32:27

particularly persecution couldn't come with me.

01:32:29 --> 01:32:30

That's fine.

01:32:32 --> 01:32:33

I went outside with them

01:32:35 --> 01:32:36

and waited.

01:32:37 --> 01:32:39

And then they called.

01:32:42 --> 01:32:47

And I received the news that shocked me because I'm not like,

01:32:49 --> 01:32:58

what I said already about the fact that comes to this was even more and more undeserving, I should say, to tell me that.

01:33:02 --> 01:33:07

You have been appointed as a as a member of the European Council.

01:33:09 --> 01:33:14

I figured out that I was not the only one who was not coming from

01:33:15 --> 01:33:18

Islamic traditional education.

01:33:20 --> 01:33:22

There were a couple of people also.

01:33:24 --> 01:33:29

So my, I figured that it is largely scholars

01:33:30 --> 01:33:33

or Imams, not any Imams, even, you know, Imams.

01:33:35 --> 01:33:36


01:33:37 --> 01:33:48

and they try also indeed, choice of arrows to represent as many countries or areas in Europe as possible, is that

01:33:49 --> 01:33:58

they felt somehow that some people might not have the training as they're not island, but they have

01:33:59 --> 01:34:08

experience, long experience Shani and living and working in interacting in Western societies.

01:34:09 --> 01:34:42

Which I think if you look at it from the second point of view was also needed. You need Janya. See, and we need Tenzin and worker and tansy Lanois currently applying the aka you need some people might. That is in addition, of course to consultants who are not members who are consulting with when there is a special issue. Like after the the pandemic. There was a meeting that was giving a full

01:34:43 --> 01:34:45

hearing to four

01:34:47 --> 01:34:52

medical doctors one of them was a specialist even virologists thing as to call

01:34:53 --> 01:34:59

to listen to them and benefit in that for that in that discussion. But there are people who are there as

01:35:00 --> 01:35:05

Members, so far, as far as the International Union of Muslim scholars,

01:35:07 --> 01:35:12

in fact, when it was established, again the initiator was Qaradawi

01:35:13 --> 01:35:15

in, in London,

01:35:16 --> 01:35:20

he said, we invite all the members of the council,

01:35:21 --> 01:35:49

you know, to, to be members also of, of the Union, and then the union cell elect people to serve on the Board of Trustees. So, that's basically a journey of learning really, especially like I say the, in the International Union, it is not a discussion of issue and giving fatwa actually, International Union is not

01:35:52 --> 01:35:58

not concerned as much with fatwas, except by exception was the

01:36:00 --> 01:36:01

the pandemic.

01:36:04 --> 01:36:08

But, but looking after the needs, and

01:36:09 --> 01:36:23

just causes of Muslims, whose voice voices are not heard. Yes, yes, no, of course, I'm well aware of the organization and in fact, tomorrow in sha Allah and obey Don't forget that.

01:36:24 --> 01:36:25

There is

01:36:27 --> 01:36:38

an invitation for again, the members of the the trustees and other members in general who are interested for a special conference about

01:36:39 --> 01:36:47

what to do about the Indians, treatment of Muslims and also what is happening in Kashmir.

01:36:48 --> 01:37:38

Sometimes it's very limited, like you might say, the sort of webinars on some of the major issues. But what I like to say in the, in the European Union, Federal officers, you You hear a lot from P or slowly, slowly discussions. Yes, that is very education. hamdulillah Shana, were really taken a lot of your time. I want to finish up with a very personal question that will inshallah be of benefit to all of us. MashAllah Tabata kala Shahana you are somebody that has been a university professor for any mashallah 40 plus years. And you have been active in the Dawa and you are one of the pioneers and living legends. And on top of this, you are mashallah father of five and grandfather of how much

01:37:38 --> 01:37:40

2223 So,

01:37:41 --> 01:38:22

how do you balance the five or six Sigrid grantees? Oh my God, you have a grand cassava Humphrey law. So she has an A, how did you balance between work and family and Dawa and writing and any it's like, you know, this is, I mean, it's so productive. And here we are living in the Internet era and the tough cell phone and the computers. And you did this in the 60s and 70s with typewriters and no cell phones, right? Maybe that's why you're more productive, I don't know but said help us out and give us advice. How do we balance all of these things and be successful and all of them like your generation and Marshall Do you in particular?

01:38:23 --> 01:38:34

Well, it is only in the news that by the grace of Allah subhanaw taala that will handle this. So I must say that I pay great tribute to my good wife, Mashallah.

01:38:35 --> 01:38:44

I couldn't find a better wife. really enhanced devotion and caring for the children in my absence frequent in frequent travels.

01:38:45 --> 01:38:57

Secondly, a major factor in handling that was this series on Islamic teaching. In fact, if you log in,

01:38:58 --> 01:39:04

not everything is there as correct or the restaurant under German by the way in and

01:39:08 --> 01:39:14

YouTube, just in the search window, Jamal J MA and by the way, the end of

01:39:25 --> 01:39:29

the day, the most

01:39:30 --> 01:39:35

blessed work that Allah subhanaw taala has helped me with

01:39:36 --> 01:39:45

and that was as early as during the invasion of Afghanistan the first communist invasion.

01:39:46 --> 01:39:48

We started the localist

01:39:49 --> 01:39:53

publication service TV very simply is not charged ferriter Anything.

01:39:57 --> 01:40:00

It was supposed to be only a few programs on Islam

01:40:00 --> 01:40:14

But then we thought that we could start systematically in an organized manner, deal with Islam, even the word Islam and what it means the archy. The the in, in greater detail is

01:40:17 --> 01:40:31

Allah subhanaw taala inspired us to ask them that we give them the three quarter inch this old fashioned tapes, that why is their taping, they give us a copy of that, and then they can show it

01:40:33 --> 01:40:34

broadcast their own recording.

01:40:37 --> 01:40:38


01:40:39 --> 01:40:40


01:40:42 --> 01:40:50

largely, largely even though there were periods of holidays and so on, like every week,

01:40:53 --> 01:40:55

a half hour program,

01:40:56 --> 01:41:00

with even the background required

01:41:01 --> 01:41:02


01:41:05 --> 01:41:29

five to 10 hours for half hour, an hour. I gotta create, again, organize it and divided into question answer. So that's why it looks like an interview with structured interview. And a lot of people say this interesting that you give an answer. How about when the Quran killed and unbelievers, for example, somebody really with cats?

01:41:30 --> 01:41:38

What is the current essay about that? So it was in a form of dialogue, but the structure you can see that also in

01:41:40 --> 01:41:41

a separate

01:41:43 --> 01:41:54

a separate site, it's called German data we.org, or RG. We're even distracted, put it in writing some of

01:41:55 --> 01:42:05

the idea here is, like I say, question and the tapes spread throughout the world, you know, the

01:42:06 --> 01:42:10

total number of programs at the time when all everything was

01:42:12 --> 01:42:25

reproduced a 362 half hour programs. So that pushes you say, with Listen, I am traveling to California and have many hours at that time, of course I was your free trial.

01:42:26 --> 01:42:28

There's something I can do.

01:42:29 --> 01:42:36

So I take the papers, notice books or whatever with me. And in the long travel.

01:42:38 --> 01:42:44

I continue to prepare for that. So the pressure that you have to be ready, you know,

01:42:48 --> 01:43:00

on such and such day was a great education process. And my approach is very simple. I think like many scholars, they don't start reading

01:43:03 --> 01:43:13

Hoggett something like an overhand for a loop. And by the way, this, I did also teach courses in Islam, in addition to management for Mary's University,

01:43:14 --> 01:43:18

in St. Mary's University, St. Mary's University, credit courses,

01:43:20 --> 01:43:31

one on Sierra one introduction to Islam, and my best, the most beloved course introduction to the Quran and its sciences.

01:43:32 --> 01:43:49

So the approach is not to eat four volumes of ticket a given topic, read as much as you can in different sources and organize it so that that's why that much to select or to be selective, because there are all kinds of sources.

01:43:51 --> 01:43:53

I like the sources that are documented.

01:43:55 --> 01:44:10

So I'm saying that maybe I would have been lazier and more laid back if I didn't have to do that. But to do that over it took almost a period of eight plus years.

01:44:12 --> 01:44:14

Constant work on that

01:44:15 --> 01:44:18

100 In that we all learn and

01:44:20 --> 01:44:26

I pray to Allah subhanaw taala to make text and that could be also an academic way of Dawa

01:44:27 --> 01:44:48

and sometimes I hear about former students who accepted Islam. I don't think about all of them, but once in a while, I do not because I I am giving it out to them. And usually I say in the beginning of the class semester, for any of the courses, I am teaching, not preaching.

01:44:49 --> 01:44:59

If you want preaching you can go to the masjid or this or that. I am trying to be as honest academically as possible.

01:45:00 --> 01:45:25

Teaching analyzed and feel free to object or raise questions. And I tell you also what negative things are said like the example I gave the currency kills the non believers wherever you find them, for example, or it is the question even myself and apply the rules of interpretation that they learned before. So,

01:45:27 --> 01:46:01

it it says in direct thou, thou he does mean somebody accept Islam, if somebody was an enemy of Islam to be soft, exactly soft approach, appreciative one of my students say he didn't say I became Muslim. Say, Oh, I learned a lot in this course and one in my family and friends, that disgusting, I come back and give them the information you told me in other words, yani. So you're saying the pressure on you to be organized is one of the causes that led you to be able to balance all of this.

01:46:03 --> 01:46:30

And Hamdulillah I say like I'm giving lots of credit to my wife I don't know of too many ways you can put up with someone who was in some years out of 52 weekends maybe traveling 40 Hannah weekend, so let alone overseas. In so many countries as I Allah bless for all these

01:46:32 --> 01:46:47

lessons are really encouraging Tobon sometimes she find it too much, but who wouldn't here kind of who wouldn't? Every single one of us knows that. Our wives Yanni ALLAH blessed us with them or else we would not be able to do what we are doing. Subhan Allah

01:46:49 --> 01:47:01

Subhanallah chef, yes, and I know I've taken up a lot of your time and it's also late for you over there. Really, I just wanted to thank you from the bottom of my heart that asked Allah azza wa jal to give Jessa I also want to tell you a personal I don't know if I ever told you this Shere Khan but

01:47:03 --> 01:47:43

the first detailed lecture series that are heard about Islam and Islamic theology and the rituals of Islam was when I was 1314 years old and your cassettes, you know, the one that you talk about, right, these cassettes that existed, right, it was the first my own introduction to and this is back in, I want to say 8687 like this, you know, and that Tierra and I didn't it was cassette, so I hadn't seen you, you know, actually and, you know, physically it's just the you know, those days, there was no video, there was no YouTube there was no internet, you know, so just listening to those because that's, so I can factually state factually state that my first chef and knowledge was Dr.

01:47:43 --> 01:48:22

Jamal baduy, even though I hadn't seen you or anything to learn all of this stuff, because there was nothing in detail in the English language, you know, and my first motivational speaker listen to Dr. was a monster, Raj Raj, the two of you, the two of you, really? And that I have to add here as well. Danny, the one that inspired me definitely was The Shakaama did that and I know you interact with him many times as well. Yeah. And in my formative years, the three of you I can say, each one has a role to play in terms of hilltop, he said Raja had, you know, in terms of like Dawa and debate, it's a DDOT and ALLAH blessed me to meet him three, four times in my life as well. And then in terms of

01:48:22 --> 01:49:00

knowledge, and, uh, you were the first that introduced me to some basic knowledge and to now be in the same, you know, fifth Council as you and to be, you know, considered a colleague, or to I'm not sure if you're our senior and elder Wallah, he add them in the lobby. And I thank Allah subhana wa Tada for all that He has given me and I ask Allah to bless you, in your life and in your family and in your health and wealth and to cause all that you have done to be sadhaka God for you, and to cause you to be in Janata for those that are the Shekinah no one can count you know, the sadaqa jariya that you planted you know, your life is a walk Fisher, Allah your life itself is a walk, you

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know, all that you have done from the 60s Up until now, Yanni, it's just I am in awe that we are we still have people like you amongst us, and I genuinely envy Yanni the era that you lived in the purity of that era. Sure, I don't like saying this in front of our audience, but I feel our era is corrupted. And I feel that interacting with you I sense that that simple purity that we lack so much as you say, so, I ask Allah to forgive me and my peers and the people of my generation and that we, we we remain inspired by people like you, and we're connected to that pure legacy. So from our side Chicana Jessa qumola Who Hi Iran Hi Ron Jessa that only Allah can give you that Jessa and may Allah

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azza wa jal continue to bless you and continue to honor us with your presence and I hope inshallah Shere Khan at that as soon as COVID restriction is finished, that actually I want to actually physically pay you a visit and you know, just reset

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Average somebody any physical connection generally because I honestly view you as a living legend as somebody who goes back to that time frame and today are learned even stories and everyone heard of and there are so many other stories as well. So, once again, Jocko will look out for your time and efforts.

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To see how for everybody that's listening, we can conclude on this show for any loss he had.

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Number one, establish and strengthen our relationship with Allah subhanaw taala and that's the foundation.

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Number two, to educate ourselves as best as we can within our limitations, always seeking knowledge because it is a prerequisite for doing our will have the ISA really Edo in Allah Allah wa sia never saw Salah was attachment hen olam Malthouse La La Silla oil to do I learn at all it allows I invite all to the wave Allah with understanding

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sets out. So that's also our motto. For this, thirdly, to try to implement not only the knowledge but also the the lack the sincerity, the hard work, honesty that

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we should all strive as best as we can. So alQaeda knowledge, application hamdulillah Zakum, Allah Hi, Ron chef and sha Allah. I hope to see you soon. Actually, we have a meeting on Saturday. So I'll see you in the council meeting each other but Zack Allah here for your time and your efforts and we'll be in touch

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Lonnie kusudama.

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