Channel: The Deen Show
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Jesus was his messenger
Alhamdulillah wa Salaam Alaikum. Peace be unto you. Thank you for tuning in. Last week, we were discussing with Dr. Gerald Dirks, graduate of Harvard University. You can hear his story how he came to embrace the way of life of all the messengers of God which is that surrender and submission sincerely obediently and in peace some dough with one word Islam. How he came to it on his special section at the deen show calm and we have covered part one you can go back to look at that. We're going to continue on talking with him when we come back here on the Dean's show the topic is Jesus Jesus peace be upon him divine that ever claimed divinity
and we come back here in a deep show Part Two to this topic.
Jesus was his messenger
Why did that maybe it's maybe it's just a break the ice a salaam aleikum? Wa Alaikum. Salaam, how are you? Good. Praise God. All right, yes, hum de la praise. And thanks to the Creator of the heavens and earth. And we are continuing talking about for those who joined us last week, you gave an overwhelming amount of evidence, supporting that Jesus peace be upon him never claimed divinity. We talked about this. We also covered that his disciples didn't look at him as a god. And some of the earlier Christian groups at that time who believes in a adoption is theory. Yes, this is a theory, or the belief that he was known as a son of God meaning a righteous servant of God. Is that
how Jewish people at that Tiger would consider and you know, we can look at how this whole Miss notion Yeah, evil. In first century Palestine, if you said so and so was the son of God. Everyone knew that what you meant by that was, this is a very righteous and pious and God fearing individual. And that's all you were saying. That's all you were meaning. And like I say, the Jews in Palestine all knew this. The problem that arose is when Paul took his particular brand of Christianity and began to teach it to the Gentiles or the non Jews in Asia Minor, and more specifically in Europe. And when these people heard the word Son of God, it meant something very, very different to them,
than it meant to those Jews back in Palestine, who when they heard it said, Yeah, righteous man, religious man, pious man. But when Greeks heard it, or Romans heard it, this conjured up images of the gods coming down from Mount Olympus, impregnating human women, and you have someone like Hercules being born as the result. So this was the context in which these Gentiles began to receive the message that Paul was bringing to them when they heard that term Son of God, or they were saying, Oh, yes, I know exactly what you mean. We have our own stories of the gods coming down from Mount Olympus, and begetting children by mortal women. So they took it in a very different
And that translation was never appropriately made, from first century, Palestine and Judaism, to Europe. So when you take a language that's suited, because did it not say in what we allegedly have in the Bible that Jesus is, have allegedly said that I have not been sent, except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel? Yeah, we hear that statement in the Gospel of Matthew.
It's a story of a Canaanite woman, he's, he's traveling and a Canaanite woman
comes up to him and start shouting after him, saying, you know, Lord, help me help me. My daughter is tormented by a demon. And we're told, and Jesus did not answer her at all. And she keeps yelling, and finally the disciples come up to Jesus and say, you know, so
away, she's harassing us. And Jesus said, I was not sad except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And the woman finally approaches him and says, you know, please, you know, and Jesus says, you know, again, I was sent only to the Israelites, you don't take the food that's meant for the children and feed it to the dogs. Yeah. And the woman supposedly says yes, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master stable. And so we're told it Matthew, Jesus says, great is your faith.
Be it as you wish, and her daughter was healed instantly. But the point is that he was saying I was only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And the people of Israel, the Jews, the people of Palestine, knew what Son of God meant, which was simply a righteous, pious man. So if you take that, where he was only set for the children of Israel, and now they can understand the language, Son of God, as you had given that evidence that that meant a righteous person. And then you gave in part one, all the evidence that the Bible literally has sons by the tons. Yeah. And now you take this language, and the, and you take it outside of his immediate mission. And now we give an example. For
instance, if I take the slang for instance, or the language of this time, and maybe I take it back, or forward 100 200 years, and for instance, you tell the person to I need a lift, right? So that would translate, I need a ride, but somewhere else, they think of a lift, yes, elevator, or, you know, this guy's bad. Yes. Now, that can mean that someone say he's a bad person, but in another slang, he's bad. He's like, awesome. Yeah. Another one is Mary had a little lamb, you know, if you take this literally, and this is just a story or, but some of the things that she actually gave birth to a lamb. So is this kind of the same thing where we're saying that you take a language that
is suited for this type is understood by this people, and you bring it over here by people who are already worshipping sons, gods, Apollo, Jupiter, he had a son mithras. And now you can see how this gets all mixed up and clean? Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. That is amazing. So tell us now moving on someone. Because we refuted some of the evidence that someone tries to use saying that Jesus, no, no, no, no, he is divine. And, okay, we're gonna just for the benefit of doubt, someone's really sincere we hope. And he has some other verses that are on the back of his mind. We want to clear these up. I and the Father are One, tell us someone might use this is saying, look, look, look, he
said, I and the Father are one. And they want to support him being defiant when I say let me
argue and I want.
My wife and I are one in a purpose. Yeah, sure. So I mean, to say my father and I are one What does that mean? You know, it's a very ambiguous statement. Yeah. can be interpreted a number of different ways. Yeah.
So no one comes to the Father, except through me, was that mean, to the message that Jesus taught the same message that we as Muslims accept?
That's makes sense. How about he said, when they came to him, and he said, Before Abraham was I hear this all the time, I am the famous I am now and they compare it to the Old Testament, where God you know, better than me were the Moses and tell him I am Can you expound on this?
they're doing a little pun on words there. But as far as the pre existence of Jesus, yeah.
That doesn't imply divinity by any stretch of the imagination. We as Muslims believe that all of Adam's seed, for of all time, had a spiritual pre existence, in which we testified to God about his oneness, etc.
And so, you know, in that sense, we're all pre existed. Yeah. So this is again, one of those that if you went to an average layman, and you took that verse, And you'd like, showed it to him, and you said, What do you get out of this? I don't think too many people are going to get that Jesus is divine, or, you know, one with God, would you? Well, yeah. We talked about an earlier show. There's this concept in psychology called the Rorschach test, or shark test, which is a series of ink blots on cards, you hand it to a person you say, What do you see in this? Well, whatever the person sees, whether it's a cloud or an animal or a butterfly or or what have you, is something that they
themselves are projecting onto the inkblot. And so many of these verses my father and I are one, a no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. I am the way the truth of the line, you know
These are all worship cards. Yeah, you're going to get out of them, what you're projecting into them. What you really wanted to say, you're seeing that. But if you're going to use that standardized across the board is not the same as some of the other verses that are actually unequivocal, where maybe you can help us out with that, where he's clearly making a distinction between him and god. Oh, there are a number of such verses. Give us some of those? Well, sure, we can.
In fact, why don't I enlist your aid here, ruler? Because I wrote a few of them down. I thought his might come up. Yes.
see beginning here where it says,
biblical verses supporting subordination ism. If you want to just read off
what it's asking for all try and look it up real quickly. Yeah, you got here in Mark 1018. Okay, let's see what Mark 1018 says.
And I'm reading from the New Revised Standard Version. Jesus said to him, Why do you call me good? No one is good, but God alone.
I mean, that's that's kind of, you know, not
leaving room for, you know, too much interpretation. I mean, it's straight to the point. Yeah. Yeah. Tell us, john 519. This is john 519.
Jesus said to them, very Truly, I tell you, the son can do nothing on his own, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the father does. The son does. Likewise, son can do nothing of his. So if he's God, he should be able to do everything. Sure. I mean, he's saying that he can't do nothing. He's clearly saying he's subordinate to God. Okay. We don't need actually even your master's degree to figure this one out. It's right there. Yeah. Okay. How about john 3535 30? Okay.
Again, words of Jesus supposedly, I can do nothing on my own. As I hear I judge and my judgment is just because I seek to do not my own will, but the will of Him who sent me. So he, if he's got Who's he being sent by? Yes, exactly. Okay. And again, can do nothing on his own john 1428.
He is that you say that you do not believe in Jesus you have stepped outside of Islam. You cannot be a Muslim is attended our faith to believe in in love Jesus Christ.
I would say this thing that you just told me, it's not in the Scripture. And they would say a marginal note added by scribe. Yeah, okay. We know that. And I'd be thinking, if you know, this is not the Bible. Why are you preaching it as if it's gospel truth?
Okay, you heard me say to you, I am going away and I am coming to you. If you love me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, because the father is greater than I.
Very clear, very unambiguous. Yeah.
JOHN 2017. I like this one, this john 2017.
Okay, Jesus said to her, do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father, but go to my brothers and say to them, I am ascending to my father, and your father, and to my God, and your God. So, so if there's any equivalent series between Jesus and other humans, yeah.
Clearly, he's telling you that he's going to your God and my God. Yeah. And he's not God. So Jesus prays to God, it says in Matthew 14 2308, we have many, many examples of that. I don't know whether it's worth
reading all of them, but
And after you dismissed the crowds, he went up the mountain by himself to pray, when he even came, he was there alone, and so forth and so on. And the issue is,
you pray to someone, obviously, you are subordinate to them. Yeah. You know, you you are of a lesser status, certainly a lesser rank. How about if someone says, You know what, and I've heard this before, that he was teaching them how to pray to God to himself.
Well, when it could make the argument, yeah.
He certainly did a lot of repetitive teaching that Yeah.
How about how would you explain? And I've heard this mentioned before, also that Thomas had came and worship him said, My Lord and my God, yeah. very ambiguous.
Don't surprise me with something. Anything.
You're pregnant. Oh, my lord. Oh my god.
Oh, well wait a minute, what what? What is this me? You know? Am I simply doing an exclamation? Thomas? He's Jesus he thinks Jesus is dead Jesus is right there. Yeah. He says, My Lord my God, what do we interpret from this? Yeah. Okay, so we have overwhelming amount of evidence that is clear, unambiguous and equivocal, showing that you don't really even need a master's degree in theology to see that, hey, you know, Jesus is making a distinction between him and god. Oh, absolutely. Then you have other verses that are, you know, verses that are equivocal that they're open to many interpretations. And why do you think people that they tend to want to take these to really try to
justify this belief if you got all these other verses that are clear? Well, yeah, I don't want to imply that people are deliberately, you know, cherry picking biblical verses, etc. I think the thing is, you have to appreciate people who probably raised in Sunday school, etc. Yeah, you know, they've been taught from the word go a certain view, etc. And when they read biblical verses that are ambiguous,
they quite naturally and automatically project onto them, the sort of story that they were taught back in Sunday school when they were children. So it's kind of just wanting to stick to what maybe your grandparents forefathers, you know, you defending something that, you know, you just want to really fit, you want to make sense. And I mean, he does a person just go to any bounds to do that. You think? No, no, I and again, I think you're implying more intentionality. There often is. I mean, people have been trained to understand things in a certain way. Yeah, by virtue of their, you know, going to Sunday school every Sunday as a kid, etc. Going to vacation, Bible school, etc. And so when
they read things, they just naturally read them with that interpretation in mind. It's not that they're willfully distorting,
or willfully trying to prove a point. I think as much as it is, they've been trained to look at it this way. And they have never stopped and check themselves and saying, oh, wait a minute. What are all the different possible ways that this verse can be understood? Yeah, you know, that they're sort of going on automatic pilot, yes, based upon how they were taught, how the story was presented to them, when they were children. Let's explain to the people now, really, who Jesus was, and who got is the true concept of God that I think if any, rational person, sincere person, when he hears this, it's just going to fit with what God already embedded in all of us? Well, we as Muslims, believe
that God is one.
And that's a very emphatic one.
That he is incomparable. Nothing can compare with him. That he is greater than anything you can name. Yes. Which is what was meant when a Muslim says Allahu Akbar, yeah, God is greater is greater than this. He's greater than that. You can't compare God to anything. And as far as conceptualizing God, you know, we humans, our minds are to, to miniscule to finite. We can't ever get a totally comprehensive mental understanding of God. He's beyond our human intellect. That is the greatness and the majesty, and the awesomeness of God. But there are some things we can say. God is unity, God is one. God is love. This is one of the names of God we find in the Quran, our dude, the loving God
is the loving God is the compassionate otter. ochman. Yes, another one of the names for God mentioned in the Quran. God is the merciful, en Rahim, another one of the names of God mentioned in the Quran. So we as Muslims, see God as one, as incomparable, has been a loving, compassionate, and merciful God. Also adjust God. Yes, but a God that is loving, compassionate and merciful. And the true nature of Jesus. What does a Muslim believe about this messenger that Jesus was fully human, but obviously as a prophet and messenger of God, he stood in a special relationship with God. One that
Those of us who are not prophets and messengers are not fortunate enough to have. But someone who has been given a direct revelation from God certainly is standing in closer proximity to God than the rest of us mere mortals are. Now you had talked about identity, and your story of how you came to Islam. How can someone overcome because I'm sure, when they hear this, it just makes good old common sense. Again, you graduated from Harvard, with a master's in divinity. But I don't think a person needs that Master's in divinity, to just use the tools that God has given them when you just define who God is. And his pure oneness is absoluteness, in that oneness in his mercy, and it's not
something that is too complicated. You don't have to do all of this mental gymnastics to try to make this fit. But now it's the identity. Now a person is nervous. This is like, what I know, this is what I do. This is what you know, they feel like this is me. And now they get stuck with this. How do they overcome this? Well, first of all, let me reinforce what you were saying. The Quran says that the signs of God are all around us. And all we have to do is stop. Take a look around us to begin to contemplate the world that God has created. And we'll find God you know, the Quran talks about Abraham peace be upon him. reasoning to monotheism, by naturalistic observation, by studying
the skies. Yeah. And he was able to read it, apparently is a youth of about age 14 reasoning to absolute monotheism. So yes, the signs are all around us.
And those signs are available to everyone. Now, what happens when a person gets to that point of saying God is one? One and only one?
But boy, you know, I've been raised as a Christian. Yeah, you know, what are my parents gonna say? What are my aunts and uncles gonna say? What about my friends? And oh, my goodness, do I have to start wearing this? You know, slip like dress and wearing something on my head? And you're not wearing? No, I'm not wearing? Do I have to change my name? Yeah, no, no, the answer is no to all of those things. And, and I would say to our Christian friends who are listening who may be thinking about Islam,
you know, don't, don't let an over zealous Muslim, tell you, you have to change your name, you don't, or tell you, you have to dress in Middle Eastern clothing you don't, or try to convince you to be more of an Arab than an Arab or more of a Pakistani than a Pakistani or more of an Indonesian than an Indonesian. You don't have to do any of that. You know, you're born here, you were raised here, you're an American, that's your identity nationally, and culturally, keep it.
Actually, you probably don't have much choice in that matter. But keep it. There's nothing
pathological about being an American in national cultural identity. And being a Muslim in religious identity. You know, Muslims have been in this country for centuries. And I've contributed significantly to this country for centuries. So there's no conflict between being an American, being a Muslim, rest assured. On that point, we'd like to thank you once again, for being with us. My pleasure. Thank you. This is our call how to make God Almighty, the Creator of the heavens and earth, the law of rewards and abundance. And we'd like to thank you for being sincere, wanting to know the truth. And I hope that you continue on your Miss mission, searching for the truth. For
those of you who already know what the truth is, try to everyday live it, and be the best example that you can be. so other people can see you live in the truth. And they can see it in your character in your behavior. And then they're going to want to ask questions, what are these people on, they're honest, they have great integrity, they don't lie. They don't backbite they don't gossip. They stay away from gambling from fornicating from all the different evil vices around the world. And then they'll come to know that you're living the way of life that all the messengers of God lived. Your being humbly and sincerely submissive to the one who created you not to a man to a
woman, but the one who created man and woman, not to the Sun to the moon, but the one who created the sun in the moon. you're praying like Jesus prayed, you pray like Abraham prayed. You're a Muslim. One who has consciously surrendered and submitted to the One God in Arabic, that's a Muslim. It's very simple. It's unique way of life is for everybody. And we hope that you got the benefit and you keep coming back. Until next time, a Salaam
Can peace be unto you