Channel: The Deen Show
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Jesus was his messenger
Alhamdulillah wa salam alikoum. That is the greeting of peace, peace be unto you. You come back here every week, and you get to learn something God willing. And we're thankful and grateful to the Creator of the heavens and earth has given us this platform where we can share some of these truths with you. And something that is on the minds of a lot of the people is Jesus God?
Is he the Son of God is the divine. Now, for me to just tell you this is one thing.
But for somebody who is graduated and master this topic who has the Master's in divinity from none other than the prestigious Harvard University, he finished seminary school. He was an ordained minister. Our good friend, Dr. Gerald Dirks, when we come back he's going to help us tackle this topic. We'll be right back. Sit tight.
Jesus was his messenger.
No, I did that. Maybe. Maybe it's just a break the ice. A salaam aleikum? Wa Alaikum. Salaam, how are you doing? hamdulillah Praise be to God. All right. That's good. We're excited. You're back with us to tackle this topic is Jesus God. But before we go into that, they heard me mention some of your credentials. Can you just briefly talk about a little bit about your history where you studied and what you
specialized in school, and a Bachelor of Arts and philosophy, I was basically pre theology from Harvard College, a master of divinity from Harvard Divinity School, I was ordained into the Dr. Kenneth in the United Methodist Church, and subsequently went on and received a masters and a doctorate in clinical psychology.
Okay, so you know this topic, you're qualified to talk about it. That's why we brought you here for you to help us clear up this misconception many people, they are being taught that Jesus is God. Now, can you tell us? What is the evidence? Where does this belief come from stem from? And is this true?
Well, first of all, you know,
to say Jesus is God and leave it strictly at that with adding nothing else is actually for traditional Christianity a heresy. That is a heretical statement to make. It is a non Christian statement to make. According to traditional Christianity, traditional Christianity, or we look at early Christianity. There, there were three basic positions that were taken with regard to the nature of Jesus.
Some early Christian said, Jesus is God, pure and simple. Now, like I said, that was heresy. The dosa tests, for example, took that position.
The second position is Jesus was God and man simultaneously. Now this is the traditional orthodox position of Christianity.
As stated at the Council of chalsa, Don,
there were two natures in Jesus,
one divine one human. And these two natures were both present. But they were neither mixed nor separated. Now, if something's not mixed in, it's not separated. I don't know what's left. But the traditional creed coming out of childhood on was to nature's human and divine, not mixed, not separated. third position in early Christianity was that Jesus was human. I'll be a man who stood in a special relationship with God. there was evidence supporting that there was groups that believe that he was not God. He was purely human. Absolutely, yeah. And these were some of the earlier Christian sects. Yeah, basically, and in terms of history of Christianity, there's a broad group of
early Christians that were known as subordination us. And by that it's meant that they subordinated Jesus to God didn't put them on the same level.
Special Interest would be one particular group of subordination as that were called adoption tests. And they were called adoption is because when it came to this concept of the Son of God, their response was to say, well, like an adopted son, not like a physical son, or a literal son. Yeah. So they understood this concept of Son of God in a very metaphorical way. And in fact,
if we look at the context, and I think we need to look at historical context, when we talk about this concept of Son of God, if we look at the the Bible,
we see that Israel as a whole, the whole of Israel, and especially the sub tribe of efirium, were referred to as the sons of God. And you can find this at home. I'll read them slowly. Exodus chapter four, verse 22, Hosea 11, verses one through three, and 10 311 and Jeremiah 31, verses nine and 20. Talk about the Israelites as a whole in the tribe of Ephram as being the sons of God.
The Bible also tells us that certain Israelite kings are called the sons of God. So for example, David referred to as the Son of God, in Psalms two verse seven, Solomon also referred to as the Son of God. And Second Samuel seven, verses 13 through 14, angels referred to as the sons of God and Job, chapter one, verse six, any faithful person of Israel being referred to as a son of God, and Deuteronomy 14, verse one, and finally, any righteous man, and let me let me quote this one, it's ecclesiasticus, four, verse 10, ecclesiasticus, or the wisdom of Jesus been sirak be as a father to orphans and in a place of a husband to widows, then God will call the son and will be gracious to
thee and deliver the from the pit. So what we're left with here, and we need to understand this historical context, among the Israelites, in first century Palestine, to be called the Son of God simply meant, you were a righteous and pious man. That's it. That's all it meant. Now, the Bible Translators do a trick on people. Because when they translate Son of God, in reference to Jesus Christ, peace be upon him. They put a capital S in son. Well, in the Greek, there's no capital, no lowercase. That's not that that's a totally arbitrary thing. legislators are doing some deception going, Oh, and then anywhere else where someone's called the Son of God, that lowercase S Yeah, but
that's the translators. That's not the text.
He's that you say that you're not believing Jesus, you have stepped outside of Islam. You cannot be a Muslim into that tenant, our faith to believe in in love Jesus Christ.
I would say this thing that you just told me, it's not in the Scripture. And they would say a marginal note added by scribe. Yeah, okay, we know that. And I'd be thinking, if you know, this is not the Bible, why are you preaching it as if it's gospel truth?
Okay, like I said earlier, we are humbly trying to
express what the truth of Jesus's message really was. And we know that as ones who have consciously submitted to the will of God, ie Muslims,
that we go by the verbatim Word of God which is unedited, unchanged, preserved, memorized by millions, the verbatim Word of God. And then there is an article of our faith to believe in the messengers, Jesus being one of them, so we don't believe in Jesus. You cannot be a Muslim. We love Jesus, we respect him, we believe in all these miracles, which you you will that he did you
elaborate on this a little bit further, but the Quran says if you're truthful, bring your evidence. So we just want to do what our book is saying what the Creator is saying that bring your evidence. So if we look at the Bible, what are some of the strongest proves that someone can use? Because there are some evidences some people will present to justify Jesus being divine? Well, we could turn to one of them. And and that of course, is the the concept of the virgin birth, as it is portrayed in Matthew and in Luke. This is a process of divine begetting. Yeah. The problem for Christians However, if they stop and think about it, as we say,
Christians say we have God the Father, God, the son and God the Holy Ghost. But if Jesus is God the Son, who's his father, well, Christians automatically will say God the Father. And yeah, what the Bible says in Matthew and Luke, is that the Holy Spirit came upon marry, not God the Father. So who who's the one doing the beginning here?
That's one consideration.
In Islam and the Quran, we have the story of the virgin birth. Yeah. But for us, there's a crucial difference between the virgin birth is told in the Quran, and the virgin birth is told in Matthew and Luke, and that difference is in the Quran is not divine beginning. It's a miraculous creation. And again, I'd like to just quote those verses from the Quran. But my Lord, she cried out, that's Mary cried out, how can I have a son when no man has touched me. And so it is that God creates what He wills, the angel replied, when he decides a matter, he only has to say, B. And it is the example of Jesus in the sight of God is like that of Adam. He created him from dust saying, Be, and he was,
that's the third chapter of the Quran verses 47 and 59. So totally different twist. This is a miraculous creation, not an act of divine begetting.
Now, Christians point to the virgin birth, and they say divine beginning, they also tend to turn to the story of the baptism of Jesus,
as they find it in the Bible. And I'm turning now to the third chapter of Luke.
And this is the baptismal story. Basically, it says that Jesus goes to john the baptist peace be upon them both. He's baptized by john the baptist, and is he standing there, the skies open up and the Holy Spirit descends upon him and bodily form like a dove. And then, and a voice came from heaven, you are my son, the beloved, with you, I am well pleased. And many Christians will point to this verse.
However, as noted in a footnote, in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, other ancient authorities read differently, they read, you are my son, today I have begotten you,
as an adult,
at the time of the baptism, well, under this understanding, if your be gotten as a 37 year old man, obviously the beginning is not to be understood, literally, or physically, but only metaphorically at most, yes. And in point of fact, for Christians who may doubt
that probable original wording of Luke,
they can turn to other places in the Bible and find the same wording. In Hebrews chapter one, verse five, Hebrews chapter five, verse five, in reference to Jesus, we have the same wording. Today, I have be gotten a, we also find it in 13th chapter of Acts, the 33rd verse, we have it in the Psalms, Psalms two, verse seven, being applied to David, remember, more than just Jesus was called the Son of God. So this, this notion that Jesus became the Son of God, in a metaphorical sense, at his baptism, was a cardinal tenant of many early Christian groups. For example, the IBM knights, very large Christian group, originally in Palestine, they were in existence during the time of the 12
disciples, they fled from Palestine at the time, the Romans destroyed the temple,
and spread out into Syria, Jordan, etc. And we know they continued as a viable group of Christians well into at least the third century. Yeah. And they were saying, No, no, Jesus is not God, Son of God, well, with a small s metaphor, and of course, he was a righteous man. cetera, but no, not in any literal, physical sense. It wasn't divine.
And we know the disciples, the actual disciples of Jesus also held a similar view. Yeah, that Jesus was not divided. And we know this because Rabbi Gamaliel, who is the president of the Jewish Sanhedrin, ruled officially, that the early Jerusalem church of James and the disciples of
Jesus was authentically Jewish. And there would have been absolutely no way that the President of the Jewish Sanhedrin could have ruled that this early Christian church in Jerusalem, they continued to worship at the temple was authentically Jewish. If in any way, shape or form, they were saying that Jesus was divine.
Yeah, wow, this is amazing. Tell us have you. Can you expound on this verse? And where it says, Let us make man in our image? What does this mean?
Well, Genesis says in Genesis and Genesis, I've heard some Christians when they want to prove the divinity of how God can be a man, they will say that, that let us make men or in our image, what does that mean? Well, you're gonna get different opinions. Yeah. From from different people. This is one of those very ambiguous things. Yeah. You know, at a very primitive level of understanding, one might say that God looks like you and me. Yeah. But I can say is a very primitive, primitive level of understanding. And a more abstract level, when one would say, each one of us as human beings is endowed with the spirit. Yeah. And that this is really all that is meant by in the image of God.
Okay. In the beginning was the Word the Word was with God and the Word became flesh. This is somewhere in john one, one. I first Yes. first chapter. Do you throw this in your face? What do you got to say? First of all, the prologue of john, we know as a later edition, later edition, yeah, to the gospel of john. Yeah, absolutely. very much influenced by Greek philosophy. In fact, the term logos is very much a term coming out of Greek philosophy. But the fact that Jesus was pre existent, you know, Islam believes that we were all pre existed in a spiritual sense, that all the seed of Adam was gathered before God, as in a spiritual sense, and made to affirm the oneness of God. So pre
existence of God or pre existence of Jesus, excuse me, does not in any way imply divinity.
And just to remind you, we are here with Dr. Gerald Dirks, who has a master's in divinity from the prestigious Harvard University has finished seminary school, he's helping us tackle this topic. And you got to know we love Jesus. He was one of the mightiest messengers of God, who called people to not worship himself, but to worship god alone, without any co equal co partners. Did Jesus ever tell us please? Did he ever out of his lips, his mouth, his disciples, his friends? Did they ever teach people? Or say this word Trinity? No. Is this Trinity the word anywhere in the Bible? No. Where we come up with this now.
This is this is a later formulation of Christianity. And the doctrine of the Trinity grew in fits and starts. It basically grew out of Pauline Christianity as it emerged and developed in Europe.
This concept of Trinity or the divinity of Jesus did not develop typically, in the Christianity that was developing in North Africa. And in the Middle East. Here again, we had this adoption trajectory, where people understood Son of God, to be metaphorical, you know, Jesus moved into a special relationship with God, as we would expect a prophet and messenger to do absolutely, yeah.
And so we have a long history of this adoption, Ernest trend in early Christianity
theodosis the Gnostic in the second century was preaching this adoption, his message theodosis the tanner later in the second century, and in his teaching developed, what was called theodosian ism, or dynamic menarche. ism lasted well into the third century, Oregon, third century priest, also was teaching a subordination estar adoption, Ernest, Christology, teaching the oneness of God no,
no, no Trinity, not Trinity, that Jesus was clearly subordinate to God. Dionysus, third century Bishop, Bishop, mind you, and Alexandria, again teaching that Jesus was the adopted son of God or subordinate to God, Paul of San Masada, third century Bishop of Antioch, also teaching this message. St. Lucian of Antioch, third century theologian teaching this message. So you can see this is quite widespread in the middle
Stand in North Africa, and then find the area's fourth century priest and founder of arianism, who was in Alexandria, Egypt. And his movement lasted well into the seventh century, and North Africa and the Middle East. In fact, many Christian historians would say that arianism, this particular form of adoption, ism, was the majority element in Christianity during the fourth century.
So this is quite quite a statement. And it's interesting to look at what areas actually talk and as to not mistake I'm on to just read this. area's taught that God is absolutely unique and incomparable,
is alone self existent, unchangeable and infinite, and must be understood in terms of his absolute oneness. Given this all important first premise areas concluded that one, the life of Jesus, as portrayed in the canonical gospels, demonstrates that Jesus was not self existent, that he changed and grew over time, if in no other way than in passing through the stages of birth, childhood, adolescence and adulthood, and that he was finite, having a definite time of conception, and birth, therefore, areas concluded, Jesus was God's created being, who was called into existence out of nothingness, who could not have shared in the absolute uniqueness, immutability and infinity of God,
without compromising them who could not have been of the same substances God without compromising the oneness of God, and who could have had no direct knowledge of God, other than that, which God chose to reveal to him. Now as Muslims, I think, affirm what areas to say mean, absolutely. That God is one. He's not his creation. He has no beginning he has no end. He's not a man. He's not Jesus. Lu Allahu
be that God is one. He's not his creation. He has no beginning. He has no, no, he's not a man. He's not Jesus. This is what we're saying. Yeah, just what all the messengers taught. Yes. And this is what arius was teaching. This is what the adoption is basically we're teaching, though areas is perhaps the one who elaborated this to the best possible extent. But but it doesn't end here to tell you Eusebius of nicomedia, fourth century Bishop of nicomedia, also an adoption as Macedonia's fourth century Patriarch of Constantinople, arguably the number two man and all of Christendom behind only the Pope. And the Greek Orthodox would say equal to the Pope. He was an adoption, when
you say adoption is What do you mean? This is someone who maintained that when we say Jesus was the Son of God, we mean like an adopted side, like metaphoric? Yeah, like what we're saying is right. not literal. Yeah. Not physical. Yeah. That someone who moved into a special relationship with God, all the prophets had a special relationship. Absolutely. Yeah. And the last and final messenger, the same thing that needs to be upon them. So tell us this is very interesting. And I'm sure that those humble people, sincere people are really getting enlightened with all this new information that many people just they haven't been taught. And you haven't graduated from Harvard,
with a master's in divinity finished with a seminary school this is like that graduate above, going into more profoundly of the history of the Bible and all the other early manuscripts tell us do the early sex of Christianity because the Quran the verbatim Word of God tells us that all the prophets were those who call to the oneness of God, they submitted themselves. You could take this concept in French and Japanese and whatever but it's summed up with one word is snam that they all did Islam. Were these earlier sex did they seem like what you're telling me that they were on Islam? Yes.
Name some more or less, more or less. We can go on from Macedonians to ideas fourth century Bishop of Antioch. And I'm just naming prominent people, bishops, etc. And the story is fifth century Bishop of Constantinople, again, Patriarch of Constantinople, and founder of nestorianism, a Christian movement that lasted well into the 19th century. Yeah. And China theater, a mob so estia, who is the fifth century guardian of right faith of the Persian church.
St. clotilda fifth and sixth century princess of Burgundy. Oh, adoption us. Now, what happened was that areas
and arianism became so popular that it threatened to pull Christianity apart. And at this time Constantine, who's the emperor of Rome, is sitting on a fairly shaky throne. Yeah. And to secure his place politically, in 313, he issued the Edict of Milan, which legalized Christianity for the first time in the Roman Empire. Well, this got him the support of the Christians. Yes. So that helps secure his throne a bit more. But the conflict that was emerging within Christianity, but what's the nature of Jesus
was threatening to tear apart that, that part of his coalition? And so Constantine called for the Council of Nicea. And the year 325. A call the bishop said, We want you to come, but sort this out. Let's figure out what's the nature of Jesus? Well, first of all, a lot of Bishops didn't show.
I mean, they weren't going to travel to nicea, which is a modern day Turkey. And submit to this sort of the council with Constantine soldiers gathered all around. Yeah. So a lot of people didn't go, those who went
to defend areas.
They basically were priced under a lot of pressure. Many of them who voted for what came to be known as the Nicene. solution, later recanted as soon as they went back home, but constantly can imagine the pressure crawl. Yeah, so the guards in this atmosphere. Constantine, as it turns out, was actually an adoption test. When he was actually later baptized later in life, he was baptized by Eusebius of nicomedia. Marian, so he wasn't adoption us. But the adoption ism was centered in the Middle East and in Egypt in North Africa. Constantine's looking for allies closer to home. Yeah, and the closest one to home is the Bishop of Rome, or what later came to be known as the Pope. And the
Bishop of Rome, was very much in this camp of Jesus is both God and man simultaneously.
And so Constantine sort of sold out his own beliefs for political power, and made an alliance with the Bishop of Rome. And coming out of the Council of Nicea was this statement that Jesus and God are of the same substance. Now, this is starting to get us towards the Trinity. But nicea still didn't say anything about the Holy Spirit really.
So Jesus and God are of the same substance. How unpopular was this decision? 16 years later, in 341, of the Council of Antioch, the assembled bishops basically said, we're not going to touch this question. And so their creedal formulation said nothing about any relationship between God and Jesus, they were begging off the question. And 16 years after that, in 357, at the Council of cernium, the assembled bishops actually voted the creed which said that Jesus is not of the same substance as God.
Now, if you look at the decision of the Council of serviam, in the year 357, the official position of Christianity was Jesus and God are not with the same substance. It was only if the second Ecumenical Council of Constantinople and the year 381 that the so called Nicene Creed was actually issued.
And it is at the Council of Constantinople in 381, that the Nicene Creed came out, not at the Council nicean 325. So this was a hotly debated issue, what's the nature of Jesus? And as I said before, a majority of Christians in the fourth century were adoption earnest. Now, a person may say, Okay, what happened to these adoption? That's why why don't we see him around today? Well, in point of fact, we do. The Jehovah Witnesses claim that they're following areas. And the Unitarians, as originally formulated, also claimed their followers of areas. But the main reason we don't see ariens today or adoption as today, is we need to look at where they were centered. They were
centered in North Africa. They were centered in the Middle East, and they basically died out in the seventh century. Now, why did they die out in the seventh century? I would submit to you the reason was the message that was brought by Prophet Muhammad peace be upon it. These people are so closely aligned with what we have come to call Islam, that in the seventh century, they naturally converted in mass into Islam. We're gonna have to do a part two, they're signaling that we're out of time for this session, and we're gonna have to continue on
This is very intriguing, enlightening, and can we continue on a part two? Sure, inshallah, okay, we're going to take a break. And we're going to try to come back and do a part two. So next week come back where we continue talking about is Jesus divine Did he say he was divine? As you can see, the evidence is pointing toward him not being divine that he was indeed a messenger of God. This is what his disciples those around him his companions believe and all the plethora of evidence of the early Christians and what the last and final messenger the Prophet Muhammad, came with, the verbatim would have been, which clears all this down off the bottom and tells you that he was indeed one of
the mightiest messengers of God. So we're going to continue on talking about this mighty messenger, Jesus to clear up his name. So come back next week here on the deen show. And we'll continue talking about this with our good friend brother, Dr. Gerald darks.
He created the universe.
To Him alone the heavens and the earth.
He is the
He's the owner. He then his messenger
is none greater