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Jesus was his messenger.
Hello, Salam Alaikum peace be unto you. Welcome to another episode of the deen show. Thank you, thank you for coming back. All praise and thanks to the Creator of the heavens and earth who has given us this platform where we can share some of this wonderful knowledge with you. Now, our next guest has been with us before he has his own section at the deen show calm. So you got to hear his story. He is Dr. Gerald Dirks. We've invited him to come back on the show to talk about a very, very important topic. Now. Just a little bit about Dr. Joe Dirks. He is a former minister, a deacon
from the United Methodist Church he had finished with a master's degree in divinity. He finished seminary school and we're going to bring him out to help cover this topic. About the crucifixion. Did God actually sent himself or his Son to die for the sins of the world? People want to know? Is this the truth?
Is this something that has supporting evidence behind it? So we're gonna go back into some of the history to see the deep did Jesus teach? Does the Bible teaches? Did his companions teach this? And first and foremost, did God Almighty
us to believe this? Now we'll be right back to cover this very important topic to learn the truth. So we can live the truth and we'll be right back here on the dean show. You don't want to go nowhere. He
is His messenger of love.
Jesus was his messenger.
Did that maybe maybe it's just to break the ice. A salaam aleikum. Wa Alaikum salam, peace be unto you, brethren, to you, brother. All right. Most of the people already know who you are, they got to hear this wonderful story how you came to accept the way of life of all the prophets, Islam. Now, today, if you can just spend a minute talking a little bit about some of your accomplishments, you went to actually attain your
master's in divinity from Harvard University finished seminary school. Talk about this for a second before we go on to our topic. Well, in terms of educational background, I have a BA in philosophy from Harvard, a master of divinity from Harvard Divinity School, and then an MA and doctorate in psychology from the University of Denver in clinical psychology. You've authored a number of books, they're all sitting here, we got about a half a dozen of them. We'll talk about that closer to towards the end of the show. But here we want to get straight to the topic. Now you're not some lay person who doesn't know the Bible. You were someone who is out there preaching Christianity,
teaching Christianity, you really know this area? Well, so we want to know now. Did God Almighty send Jesus to die for the sins of the world? Is there something that is this something that is backed by historical evidence? evidence from the Bible? Can we talk about this now? Okay, perhaps the best place to start though is with what the Quran says yes, about the crucifixion. And this is a fourth chapter of the Quran verses 157 and 158. And let me just quote the English translation for you. They boasted, we killed Jesus the Messiah, the Son of Mary. However, they didn't kill him, nor did they crucify him. But it was made to appear to them that they did. Those who argue about it are
full of doubts, and have no concrete information. On the contrary, they only follow theories, for they certainly didn't kill him. Absolutely not. God raised Jesus up to himself, for God is powerful and wise.
Now, for Christians, the typical Christian, the fact that the Quran says Jesus was not crucified is probably the most difficult hurdle they have to make Yes. And coming to either embrace Islam, or to respect a slot.
You know, Christians have been taught from the word go Jesus was
crucified on Good Friday, he arose from the dead on Easter Sunday morning. They're taught this from Sunday school on. And they believe not only is this what they're taught in church, but this is a historical reality. This isn't just theological opinion. This is historical reality. There's an unblemished historical record saying that Jesus was crucified. In fact, if you look at a junior high world history textbook, if it covers the Middle East, at some point, it will probably talk about the crucifixion of Jesus, as though this were a historical fact. The reality is, however,
quite different than that assumption that most Christians make, as to it being an historical fact. Outside of the New Testament,
and some other early Christian writing, yes, there are only two sources for a crucifixion of Jesus, anywhere in the written records of the first and early second century, only two, only two, one by Josephus, Jewish historian, the other by tacitus, a Roman historian, neither of whom was present. They weren't inclusive, it didn't see it didn't witness. They weren't. And for that matter, almost all biblical scholars maintain that none of the authors of the New Testament books were present at the crucifixion. So we got to historians writing about it. How much further away from the date, were they writing about it? Well,
the gospel of Mark is probably the earliest of the four gospels, and it was written somewhere between, say, 68 to 72, somewhere in that time range, maybe 75. How many years is that after? This is almost 40 years? 40 years later? Yeah. After the the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ, and then the next gospel would be next gospel would probably be Matthews, written maybe around 8085. So that's another note we got 40 years away, then another one's 5060 years away. Well, we're starting to get 50 years. Luke comes next. And then john, earlier than that, however, would be the the epistles of Paul are the letters of Paul earlier than the gods. Yeah. Where he talks about the
crucifixion event. But even there, we're talking 1015 years removed. Okay, from the crucifixion event. And again, we're talking about people who weren't there. And how about this is all hearsay information. Yeah, like he said, she said kind of stuff. Yeah, I you know, so and so said, I got the story from etc. Only know, where are we told the sources that these New Testament writers are using? Just before you go on? How many years later is Josephus? And what's the other person?
tacitus. They're they're writing even somewhat later, Josephus is writing. Well, they're writing Josephus is writing during the time the gospels were put together around that time. Yeah. Okay, late for a century. Gotcha. Now, so the information is not there. In terms of any firsthand account.
However, the thoughtful Christian is going to say, Okay, we have this information, it may be hearsay. But what is there to suggest that he wasn't crucified? There's nothing in the historical record, they would say, and there's where they're wrong. There's a great deal in the historical record a great deal. So for example, the Jewish Talmud
says that Jesus was stoned to death not crucified. So we have a great discrepancy in terms of motive depth now tell mood What is this for people who really aren't too versed in some of these names and books, okay.
The Jewish written law was called the Torah, okay. And then they also had the written prophets, the never aim. And the written writings, they kept a V. These three together basically comprise the Protestant Old Testament.
Now, they also had what they called the Oral Law of Moses, which they said was passed on from scribe described described, yeah, and wasn't written down until the Mishnah, which would be in the second century. And then commentaries on the Mishnah were written and put with the Mishnah. And together the Mishnah. And the commentaries with the Gemara are known as the Talmud. Okay, so you have these two come up, and this is the Tom wood now. Yes. And the commentaries have Yeah, on the, on the mission of St. Thomas. Okay. And they say he was he was stoned to death. Okay. But it's not just the Jewish group that we can turn to for counter suggestions.
It also just within early Christianity, they exist quite strongly with an early early Christianity. Yes. And there's three sources we can go to for this. One is the writings of the early church fathers. So
Secondly, we can look at what's called the so called apocryphal books of the New Testament, or New Testament apocrypha. And thirdly, we can look at the New Testament itself. Because all three suggests that there were Christian groups that did not believe in the crucifixion, that rejected that concept. All three question whether a crucifixion took place. So let's start with the the Church Fathers Yes, on this. And, you know, amongst the early church fathers in the first couple of centuries, we have Ignatius, we have Polycarp, we have Justin, we have Aaron as Tertullian, and hippolytus. All writing that there were Christian groups, that rejected the concept of the
Now, of course, they were attacking these groups. That's how we know about them.
But we can look at a couple of these groups, we know something about a couple of them. One are the so called dosa tests. This was a gnostic Christian group. They didn't believe that Jesus actually had a physical body. Yeah. And so he couldn't possibly have actually been crucified or died on a cross.
However, the really interesting group is a group that was very active in the second century in Egypt called the Basilica DNS.
And they maintained that Simon of sirene, was crucified in place of Jesus. Now, most Christians who are familiar with gospels, we'll know that all the Gospels say that at one point, his Jesus was carrying his cross to Golgotha, he stumbled and fell. And the Roman soldiers grabbed someone out of the crowd, and had him carry the cross the rest of the way. And that person is identified as being Simon of sirene. This what this group is saying, Now, no, this is in the gospels, this is accountable. The assignment of sirene carried the cross to Golgotha, for Jesus, after he stumbled, carrying, now this group, the facility and said, we received directly from the loukas, who was the
translator for Simon Peter, one of the 12 disciples, that Simon of sirene, was crucified in place of Jesus, when that switch was made, and Simon was made to carry the cross, he was the one who ended up being crucified. So this was a very prominent Christian group. In second century, Egypt, maintaining Jesus was crucified, Simon of sirene was
also if we look at the so called New Testament apocryphal writings, we find the two books of Jews, which go back to about the third century in Egypt, say, Jesus wasn't crucified. The Apocalypse of Peter, going back again to the third century, says Jesus wasn't crucified, the acts of john, going back to the first half of the second century, pretty early. So Jesus was crucified. And then the to the second treatise of the great Seth, also going back into the second century. Now, what books are these? These are books that didn't make it into the New Testament, but which, at one time or another one or another Christian groups considered to be scripture, who's deciding now what makes it and
what breaks it? What is to be put in? And what is to be put out? Well, this was a long decision in Christianity, and this will get us sidetracked into a whole long discussion, which maybe we can better have later. But suffice it to say, what finally comprise the New Testament took centuries, and is not resolved even till today. Yeah, there are Christian branches of Christianity, even today that have different New Testaments than other branches of Christianity. In fact, that's not known by most Christians. Yeah. But anyway, we have all these books saying Jesus was crucified. But perhaps the most interesting, the most interesting thing, raising serious questions about the crucifixion,
comes from the Bible itself. Yeah. And I'm just going to reach over here and grab a copy of the Bible, and what version Bible This is the New Revised Standard Version, I'm using this version because the translators go back to the earliest existing manuscripts in most cases, in order to do their translations. Unlike, say something like the King James Bible, which goes to a fairly late Greek manuscript. Now when you say it goes back to the earliest manuscripts. Is this anything original? Or is this a copy of a copy of something? Well, it's the earliest that we have typically earliest that we have. Yeah. So but is this something original, something that is? Well, we don't
have any, anything that was penned by the actual author, so nothing that actually Jesus is writing himself? No, or Moses or any of these? No, we don't have that. We don't have it. But first, let me let me read to you just a little bit. This is from the 27th chapter of Matthew. And this is from the Old King James Version with which
Probably most Christians are familiar. And Jesus has been arrested by Roman soldiers. And he's brought before Pontius Pilate, the Roman governor of Judea, to stay on trial. And we're told in Matthew that Pilate is, really doesn't want to do anything to Jesus. And he sees a way out, he's got another prisoner there. And he decides, since the Passover is coming up, he'll release one of the two, just as a gesture of mercy. And he gives the crowd a choice, are told in Matthew. And
we're told that this was, again, the King James version, which is much older,
has a much later Greek text that it's using. And according to this
pilot said to the crowd, whom will he that I release them to you? barabas or Jesus, which is called Christ. That's verse 17. of chapter 27. And later, we're told that the crowd said give us paratus. And pilot release, Paradis, and Jesus who is called the Christ, which is the Greek word for the Hebrew word, Masha or Messiah, was taken away and crucified. Yeah. But now, when we go to the New Revised Standard Version, we have something that reads just a little differently is a crucial one word change. But to get the whole thrust of this, I'm going to read a number of verses here, because I want people to understand the context.
Now Jesus stood before the governor and the governor asked him, Are you the King of the Jews? Notice this is the charge that's been made against this man, yes. That you're claiming to be king of the Jews.
Jesus said, you say so? Well, when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, he did not answer. Then Pilate said to him, do you not hear how many accusations they make against you? But he gave him no answer, not even to a single charge. So the governor was greatly annoyed. Now at the festival, the governor was accustomed to release a prisoner for the crowd, anyone whom they wanted. At that time, they had a notorious prisoner called Jesus Brabus. Note Brabus, His name is Jesus. So after they had gathered, Pilate said to them, who do you want me to release for you, Jesus, Barabbas, or Jesus who was called the Messiah. Now this is out of the revised Yes, this is right out
of the Bible, New Revised Standard Version 27th chapter Matthew, we have two people named Jesus. So who's who?
Well, to answer that question, we have to look at two key words, Messiah,
Now Messiah simply means the anointed. That's all it means. Many Christians labor under the misconception that there was only one Messiah, and that was Jesus are there many of themselves in the mighty Messiah as mentioned in the Bible? However, the Bible Translators translate the term and they say, the anointed, but almost anywhere you look in the Old Testament where it talks about the anointed, the word that's being translated as Messiah, yes. Okay. But when they talk about Jesus, they don't translate it. They use the term Messiah, or the Greek equivalent Christ.
So two people named Jesus, who were the anointed of Israel, as the key question here, an understanding Messiah. And basically, we know from history, there were three groups that were the Messiah, or the anointed of Israel, one prophets
occasionally, to the high priests of Israel, or of Judaism. And we know that this Jesus was not one of the high priests, because we have the list of high priests from Josephus,
the king of Israel, or someone claiming to be the king of Israel, and note the charge that was made against Jesus. Are you the King of the Jews? Yeah. Okay. So, that's Messiah. Now, what about Jesus barabas.
Here's where it gets really interesting.
barabas is not a name.
barabas is a patronymic, meaning the son of so and so.
in Aramaic bar means the son of so we have Jesus, the son of atus.
But it gets more interesting. abis is not a name either. It's a noun, and it needs to be translated.
Bible Translators aren't quite willing to do this yet. So they keep using the word
barabas but if we translate bar abis, we get Son of the Father.
So we have Jesus who is called the anointed, apparently claiming to be king of the Jews. And we have Jesus, the Son of the Father.
Pilate gives the crowd a choice. The choice says, Give us the Son of the Father, Pilate releases Jesus, the Son of the Father, and Jesus, the anointed, apparently claiming to be king of the Jews, is crucified.
any Christian listening will realize, Jesus, the Son of the Father, sounds very much like the Jesus with whom we're all interested, both Christians and Muslims. Yes. And the Bible says he was set free,
set free by Pilate. This might explain why the Coptic Christian church canonized Pilate as a saint, you know, how do you justify sainthood? For the man who condemned Jesus, or for the man who saved him and set him free?
Now, the fact that the person who was crucified, the Jesus who was crucified, was claiming to be the king of the Jews are king of Israel, is to be found in
many places in the gospels, were told in Matthew,
that on the cross,
Pilate had placed above Jesus's head, King of the Jews,
were told the same thing and Mark, were told the same thing and Luke, etc. You know, so we have plenty of New Testament biblical information, that this person who was crucified, was seen as a threat to Rome in that he was claiming to be a king.
Tell us now, for some of the verses that someone reads that Jesus, they say that he came back from the dead. And then he had shown his hands that he had been crucified or he had what appeared to be, you know, how do you tackle this? Well, for one thing, it's, it's the thing about showing your hands etc. is medically and scientifically
allowed, illogical, yeah, when a person was crucified,
there was no nail put through the hand, if you put a nail here and hang somebody, it's just going to rip through the weight of the body will pull the nail through, you know, and the person's hand and arm will be set free. Yeah, you know, the nail was put down here and the wrist between two bones so that it couldn't slip. So if Doubting Thomas is we're told in the Bible is looking at a wound in the palm of the hand, which is what the Bible says, That's nonsensical. Romans would never put a nail through the palm of the hand, it would be here, if they even nailed often, they just strapped Him to the cross. How about him coming back now and saying, appearing at the Last Supper, and how well the
Last Supper was before the crucifixion, he Well, I mean, when he came back, and he, the tomb and all these other pieces of the puzzle? Well, again, we have no firsthand accounts. We only have hearsay from many years later. Interestingly, the gospel of Mark actually ends before in a resurrection scenario, though a number of verses were added on to the end of the last chapter mark, to create such a story. Now we see that consistently, if you look to the message, that we believe that it has been the same, that God has sent messengers, and he has called the people to his way, which is to surrender submit to the one God, do we see anything leading up to this belief that the messengers
were giving this news of God sending himself or a Son to die for the sins of the world, we have this teaching at all? Well,
because I don't think God wants to confuse us.
Christians will typically point to a couple of different verses. And one of them that they will typically point to is from the 12th chapter of Matthew, verses 38 through 40. And the verses read like this, then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to him, teacher, we wish to see a sign from you, but he answered them, and the teacher here is Jesus. An evil and adulterous generation asked for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so for three days and three nights
The Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth. And Christians will point to this and say, See, now we have Jesus Himself prophesized. Yeah. That he's going to be crucified and spent three days in the tomb. Yeah. Now, the key thing I'd point out to Christians here is actually read what the verse says. So for three days and three nights, the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth.
We're told in the Bible, Jesus was crucified on Friday, during the day. Yeah.
And he arose Sunday morning,
Friday during the day, Friday night, Saturday, during the day, Saturday at night, maybe Sunday during the day depends when exactly you rose. But there's absolutely no way we get three days and three nights in the tomb.
Most Christians never stopped to think about that it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit at all. Because you can't get three days and three nights out of the story of the crucifixion event. Is there something clear, not something that's equivocal that's open to different interpretations, something clear that Jesus said, Look, I am God, Son of God, coming to die for your sins, believe in me. And you got this ticket to paradise, something clear, I need something clear. I'm going to submit myself to that. Not something ambiguous. Is there anything clear, please, doctor? Well, let me give you something clear. And this is very clear, and it's very decisive.
But it doesn't answer the way you're saying. Uh huh. And this is from the 17th chapter of the gospel of john, verse three. This is a prayer we're told that Jesus is saying, and it's taking place before any crucifixion event. And let me quote, verse three and four from that prayer for you. And this is eternal life, that they may know you the only true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
I glorified you on earth by finishing the work that you gave me to do. Done, huh? done over with me for any crew sufficient for all these events? Yes, Jesus is saying I finished it.
And before any crucifixion, by these words, if you accept where's that verse? No, this is john 17, verses three through four. If you accept john as being part of the Bible, if you accept that Jesus said these words, he himself has ruled out there being any crucifixion, in the atonement in the blood, etc. So we don't have Jesus ever saying if I'm understanding correctly, that he was coming to die for the sins of the world. Oh, no, really? Nothing. Nothing clear. Okay, we're gonna can we do a part to this variant? I got a few more questions I want to ask you, we're almost out of time. But just now if something happens to someone and he travels far away, he doesn't get to see part two,
which we're going to have inshallah God willing, at the deen show, calm under the special section that our brother here Dr. Gerald Dirks has, along with his story, tell us real briefly, what should someone do? Who's been believing this? They felt like this is their One Way Ticket now that if they believe in Jesus, he dying for their sins, that they got paradise? What is the proper belief? And what should someone do? Now? If he's a little confused? Now give us some advice. Well, you know, I think most Christians try to hold on to this notion that God so loved us that He gave His only begotten Son to die for our sins. And this was a great act of love. I would point out to those
people that Islam promotes an even greater understanding of love. Because in Islam, God has always loved humanity. There wasn't a time of original sin where God couldn't listen to humanity and grant humanity, his prayers. God in Islam does not demand a blood sacrifice, in order to be able to forgive us. All that he asked for us, for Him to forgive us is that we sincerely repent, and that we ask for forgiveness. No need for blood sacrifice, simply sincere repentance from a believer.
I would submit that this is a much more loving vision of a much more loving God than one that demands a blood sacrifice on a cross. It makes a lot more sense and I'm sure it has a lot more evidence to back it up and we're going to cover that inshallah God will not part two. Can we do part two, God willing? Okay, thank you. Yeah. And thank you for tuning in. I'm sorry, we're out of time. I know you're excited, but we're going to have him back to do this and we'll continue this next week. inshallah. We're going to be talking about the crucifixion continue to give evidence to show you what
Actually is the truth and the way of life that all the messengers of God taught. And that was that submission and surrender to the one God, that this creator is the most just he didn't attach us with this stigma of original sin. We were all born in original goodness. And we're going to be talking about this, how the Creator of the heavens and earth is the most loving and the Merciful, the Most Merciful. As you heard, our guests say that he doesn't need a blood sacrifice. You just need to give it your best and you got it in you turn to Him alone and ask Him to forgive you. He's the most forgiving and we're going to inshallah be covering Part Two on this crucifixion until next time,
we'll see you uh, Salaam Alaikum peace be unto you. Let's see what everyone's talking about.
You find one contradiction, it can't be from God.
But the rational idea the rational explanation is you do your best to give up worshiping God is one I will never give up spreading this message. I hope that you take the necessary steps you don't know if you're gonna live till tomorrow.
So you got to find that urgency to do the right thing right now.
The reality of life, usually the sink in until tragedy comes.
You get a few bad people. The media grabs ahold of that and spends it the way they want to.
If you say that you do not believe in Jesus you have stepped outside of Islam. You cannot be a Muslim ended attended our faith to
smil Al Hamdulillah a salaam aleikum, which is a greeting of peace, peace, b&q, thank you for tuning in to another episode of the deen Show. Today, my guest is a former Christian Deacon minister, graduated with honors from Harvard University with a master's in divinity finished seminary school, amongst other things, and we're continuing This is part two. We're talking about the crucifixion the gods send himself as a Son to die for your sin for my sins. Is there evidence for this? The prophets of old teach this? Should we believe it? We're going to be talking about this when we come back for was God crucified was Jesus crucified? Part Two, you didn't see part one, go back to the deen show
calm under the special section that we have with our brother, Dr. Gerald Dirks. And we'll be right back to cover this very important topic.
Is his messenger
Jesus was his messenger
Why did that maybe maybe it's just to break the ice. A salaam aleikum. Wa Alaikum, salaam Peace be up to you my brand to you, bro, thank you for being with us. My pleasure. We don't want the time to run out like it's been running out. We start getting into these very important topics Next, you know, they're flagging us. We're almost out of time. So we're gonna get straight to it. Many people already know who you are you graduated from Harvard University. You finished seminary school at Harvard at Harvard. And Harvard actually named you a holy scholar signifying that you were one of the top three theology students in that college. Correct? Yes, you were filling pulpits at churches
and nursing homes at various churches. You were at a young age started off as a youth minister. I mean, you pretty much you know this topic well, and inshallah God willing, you're going to help clear up some fog, because there's some controversy over this. Now, tell us to recap kind of what we bring up people to speed who didn't see part one, you go back to the deen show to see part one. Tell us you talked about Josephus, the early historians and some of the Gospels just bring the people up to speed on what we covered before before we move forward. On basically if you look at the origins of early Christianity, you'll find that there were a number of different early Christian groups that
adamantly denied that Jesus was ever crucified. We know this by looking at the writings of the so called Apostolic fathers. We know this by looking at the so called New Testament apocrypha, where in many places, it's said that Jesus was not crucified. So for example, the second treatise of the great Seth says that Simon of sirene, was crucified in place of Jesus, Simon of sirene, being the one that the Gospels tell us, was made to carry Jesus's cross after he stumbled Paul carrying it
But also, within the New Testament itself, we see that there's a great deal of question mark, as to which person was actually crucified. If you look at the New Revised Standard Version of Matthew chapter 27, which goes back to some of the earliest Greek sources we have, in terms of this particular passage of Matthew, we see that Pilate offered the crown of choice between releasing one of two prisoners, Jesus who was called the Messiah, which just means the anointed, or Jesus barabas. And as we went through the steps last time, the anointed probably meant, or Messiah, the anointed, probably Memphis was someone claiming to be king of the Jews, or king of Israel. In fact, that's
what Pilate asked him to begin with. And that's what's put over his head on the cross, according to all four of the New Testament gospels, King of the Jews, the other Jesus, Jesus barabas. And we noted that the New Testament translators are not translating barabas because barabas is not a name. It's a patronymic, meaning the Sunnah. And if we translate bar son of Abba's Father, we have Jesus the Son of the Father. And we're told right there in Matthew, that Pilate released Jesus, the Son of the Father, and another Jesus who is claiming to be king or Messiah was crucified. So who was crucified, there was a great deal of confusion in the early church. Many early Christian groups
denied that Jesus was ever crucified. This wasn't something like across the board, everybody was there was a consensus image mod that everyone's like, Look, this is a historical fact that he was indeed crucified. No, there was a great deal of controversy as to whether or not he was actually crucified that actually goes
along with what the verbatim Word of God the crown is saying that there's much conjecture. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, this is one of those passages, I think, where you read it, and you say, how could an illiterate seventh century Arab have known this, you know, wasn't in any history books that he had access to? And even if he had access to them, he wouldn't have been able to read them.
So yeah, this is one of those places where you look at the Quran and you say, Wow, it just one of the signs out of the many, that proves that this is indeed, revelation from the Creator of the heavens and earth. For those who are sincere, we are not trying to upset anybody or hurt nobody's feelings, but the truth, we're trying to present it in a very academic way, in a sincere way. So it can be clear. And all we ask is that you have an open heart and an open mind to be able to decipher analytically. Is This Really? Is there some substance to what we're saying? Now tell us very clearly Also, before we ended last time, I asked you I said, Is there something unequivocal not something
ambiguous, ambiguous? Like, I think you mentioned once before, where what did they call it in psychology, where they'll give you a card in front of you? What's it called Rorschach test, a Rorschach test. And this is tell us this is something where they put a card in front, you say, Okay, what what do you see here? It's like a painting maybe and you say, Okay, what do you see here? And the person says, I see a balloon says ice cloud, as Bridget says, something where it's not like that, where people can't like the duck, what they their desire is one of the doctor what they've been passed down from something clear where he said, Look,
I am God, in the Son of God, whatever, and I'm coming to die for your sins accept me as your Savior. And you will have paradise straightforward to the point. No, no, we can't find this in the words of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament. Basically, where this is starting to come from, yeah, where's this hall is coming from Paul and Pauline Christianity. Was he a disciple? Was he someone that saw Jesus walk with Jesus or no, no, as far as we know, Paul never even met the earthly Jesus, now sometime after the end of Jesus's ministry, and I put it that way, the end of His earthly ministry, because in Islam, we believe like Christians, that Jesus ascended into heaven, he was
taken up into heaven. The difference is, we believe he wasn't crucified. He didn't die. He was taken up well, still alive. But Paul was persecuting Christians. He was a Jewish rabbi. He was persecuting Christians and on his way to the road, on the road to Damascus, where he was going to persecute an early Christian group. he supposedly saw a vision of the risen Jesus. Yeah. And this was his claim
to discipleship that the risen Jesus had communicated to him
Having ever met the historical Jesus now. So Paul began to preach a very different type of Christianity than what was going on among the actual disciples of Jesus, as they continued to worship in the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. I'm trying to give just something for the lay person that he can understand because the information you gave is very academic. And those people who are also possibly thinking of going to seminary school, people who are the academia, and intellectuals, they know what you're saying, they know that Bible. Now the layman, I'm trying to also get to where he can understand where a Jesus clearly never taught this.
crucifixion. Okay, another thing is did Moses did the first man, Prophet Adam, no, Moses, nor did any of the prophets of God? Did they ever come teaching that look, this man is coming, God is coming, get ready to die for the sins of the world. Now. Now Christians may look back at certain passages and, and the book of Isaiah called the suffering servants, and say, Well, this is Jesus, the suffering servant who's going to die for our sins. But you know that that passage had always been interpreted by the Jews as referring to the nation of the Jewish nation as a whole, yeah, the Jewish people as a whole, not to any one particular person. So now there's nothing that's
unambiguous. The only thing that's ambiguous is the verse from the seventh chapter of john, that I quoted to you on the last show, where Jesus is praying and is praying before any crucifixion event. And in his prayer, he says to God, I finished the work that you gave me to do. This is from the 17th chapter
in the Bible. Now, if you accept that john accurately recorded Jesus's words, Jesus Himself is saying quite unambiguously, My mission is over. My ministry is over. I've done everything God asked me to do. Which means crucifixion event that's totally outside the parameters of Jesus's mission and ministry. I was told or I heard in the Bible somewhere, it says that, was it God's saying, or Jesus, the mighty messenger? You guys said that? I did not or I don't need sacrifice. I came with mercy.
I don't know exactly which verse you're referring to.
God doesn't need sacrifice. Judaism had traditionally practiced sacrifice. Uh huh.
The whole temple cult? Yeah. In Jerusalem was geared around the priestly sacrifice that was given to God. Yes. So this was a fundamental part of Judaism. It was time. Yeah.
So tell us now Okay, so we don't have Jesus teaching this crucifixion, we don't have the prophets. Now the disciples, let's move on to those that knew Jesus, who hung out with Jesus who prayed with Jesus, did they teach this? We have no text written by any disciple?
You know, the Gospel of Matthew was not written by the disciple, Matthew. In fact, the Gospel of Matthew didn't even get the name Matthew associated with it. Until around the year 130. I think it was whoa, hold on, hold on. There's a bunch of people 1000s, probably who just heard you say, Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew wasn't written by Matthew, no, of course not. Is that a fact? You know, you finished at Harvard, you have a doctorate in divinity, Masters in divinity, you know, the Bible. So Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, are those the authors are those those people think that the disciples wrote these books now that those names weren't even associated with the original gospels?
Like I said, Matthew, the gospel we call Matthew was first attributed to the disciple Matthew,
by an early Bishop around the year 121 30, something like that. And even at that, what we're told by that Bishop is that the disciples Matthew wrote the sayings of Jesus in a Hebrew original. And people have latched on to that and said, we'll see. That's the Gospel of Matthew. But that's even tenuous at best. And that's many, many years after the fact that we have this first mention of a disciples name in association with one of the four Gospels. So Jesus never taught this. The prophets of God Almighty, never taught this. His disciples never preached or taught this. But you have one man that you mentioned, Paul, who actually taught this is basically where it's coming from. It's
coming from him. And from Pauline Christianity. The people who
Paul's teachings and ran with them and develop them even further. But yeah, from from Pauline Christianity, basically. And you know, in the book of Acts, you may find something attributed to one of the disciples teaching about a crucifixion event. But again, the book of Acts is Pauline Christianity, and it's written from very pronounced Pauline bias. Do we have the original Bible? Do we have the original copies of the
New Testament? The Old Testament? What are we looking at? We don't what are these dead? No, no? Ah, well, we don't have any original, nothing original. No, there's nothing. So is it safe to say like one Bible scholar, a Dr. Bart Arum, he said, we don't have a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy of anything original. Well, we have copies of copies of copies, but along the way, we know those copies have been altered in place. This is what there's nothing original in a court of law. And you know, how the law works here. If you were to try to present this and use this as evidence in a court of law, would this work? No, it wouldn't. So hearsay. Now, if I took my driver's license, let's say you
took just to give a visual example because I mean, you know, some people you know, we just really don't
understand, you know, the importance of this. Now, if I took my, my driver's license, for instance, and now I photocopied it. Alright, Can Can Can this is this like kind of what we have? You photocopied it, and then you change maybe my height, and then you photocopied it again. And then you change maybe my weight and you photocopied it, you change my color and you photocopied it, and then you photocopied it maybe 100 times, and then you lost that original copy? Is that kind of what we're talking about? Well, yes, but let me add one thing. Some of those changes are probably inadvertent. They were made by a scribes copying. Err. Okay. Some of them were intentional. Yeah. Some of them
were to try and prove a certain theological point that the Bible was altered in a particular way at a particular time at a particular place. Yeah. So it's not you know, it's not our fault. It's not your fault. It's not the sincere person who might have been going by the Bible. But at what point do you have to stop now? And what is we want to throw a lifeline now? I mean, what's our motive here? Why are we doing this? Are we trying to upset somebody? And I told the people that were not tell us where did they go now? Because somebody might have really, you know, expected a certain paradise believing this. What do they do now? they're confused, possibly. Oh, quite, quite possibly. But but
once one gets
past the the point that, you know, there was tremendous controversy in early Christianity as to whether or not Jesus was crucified. That's point 1.2, even if he was had been crucified, what does it mean? You know, this whole notion of atonement in the blood is something that basically was developed by Paul.
And in part, he developed it, because he was trying to do away with the Jewish law. Yeah, the so called Law of Moses, governing, dietary restrictions, etc. And he grabbed hold of a verse back in Deuteronomy, which says that Deuteronomy is one of the books supposedly, of the supposed Torah. And the verse says, anyone who's hung from a tree is cursed. Yeah. And Paul basically looked at that and said, Oh, my goodness, Jesus, was hung across, you know, he's cursed. Oh, of course, he was cursed to remove from us the curse of the law. Yeah. So we no longer have to fulfill these dietary requirements, we no longer have to be circumcised, etc, because Jesus took this curse on himself by
hanging on the cross and being cursed for us. So what does the person do now? Where do they go? I mean, is because people are taught now that Adam was cursed, and this curse, God cannot accept someone coming to him because of this sin? Well,
we need to keep in mind here that this concept of original sin, that somehow all of humanity has inherited Adam's and Eve's Original Sin.
Through the sexual act, we're told by some of the Church Fathers
that this notion is something that is found only in western Christianity. It doesn't exist in eastern Christianity. And the Orthodox Church. No, no, no, this is strictly a Western Christian phenomenon doesn't exist in Judaism either.
And, of course, it doesn't exist in Islam. Yeah. Why would someone be punished? For what his great, great, great how many times great grandfather did
you know logically, this doesn't make sense? It doesn't make sense. No. I mean, it's kind of like if I asked somebody I said, Look, if the government came to get you for something
Your great great great great great great grandfather did. Yes. You'd be like, hold on. This is ludicrous. Absolutely. But the Most Merciful just God. Yes. Who created us? And who is, you know, merciful where we can't even imagine? Why would he do this to us an innocent baby? Absolutely. Is it the belief that a child now I was told if correct me, I'm just trying to learn that a child? If that child is not baptized, if a child dies, is that child go to hell?
The traditional teaching of the Roman Catholic Yes. Is that a baby who dies before being baptized? Right after birth, for example, we'll go to Limbo, okay. Which is sort of this amorphous place where only these stillborn babies and babies who died before baptism go. But certainly they teach to go to heaven. You have to be baptized. Yeah. Yeah. What? So that's the use of the Roman Catholic Church. Yeah. What about the Protestant? Protestant churches don't have concepts like Limbo and some Protestant churches will say, you know, it says in the New Testament, Jesus says, suffer the little children to come to me. Such will be the kingdom of heaven. And they look at verses like this. And
they say I, you know, children are in us. We just got some problems here. It's a lot of ambiguity. It's a lot of confusion. But I think that the way of life that was sent for all of mankind that submission, surrender, sincere obedience, sincerity, and doing this all in peace. One word sums it up. Islam is practiced by all the prophets. They never taught this, what did they actually teach? The prophets? Yes. Are they taught basically that one approach is God
with sincere repentance, that this is all that's needed? In order for God to forgive and extend his mercy to us? That's it. We don't need a blood sacrifice, to stop and think about it for a moment.
Let's assume for a moment that there is this original sin Yeah, that we all inherit. And let me ask you a theoretical question. brother asked me, please. Suppose you entered into a contract, fancy name for a contract as a covenant covenant? Okay, you entered into a contract with a group of people out here, and you fulfilled your end of the contract. He provided everything you said you that you were going to provide. But they, they reneged. They didn't follow through and provide back to you what they said they were going to, and you kept asking them to you kept asking them to and they kept No, no, no. And so finally, he said, Well, I'm going to give them one last chance to fulfill their
into the contract. Because you know, I just can't forgive them for reneging on their end of the contract. And so you take your son, and you send your son to them?
And he says, Come on, fulfill your end of the contract. And their response is that they kill your son.
And now you can forgive them.
Does that make sense? Even okay? Isn't this what the story of atonement in the blood is all about? Yeah, that God supposedly sends his supposed side son, and he has not been able to forgive mankind because of their original sin. But now that mankind kills his son, he can forgive them. You know, what, what kind of a theology is this? It's like, kind of I mean, that Father, you know, he pushes his son in front of the car. Yeah. I mean, it just, it doesn't make sense. There's no evidence, like you said, behind it, there's some things that you can deduct. And you can, you know, some ambiguity, and there's a lot of like, the verbatim Word of God said, there is, as that verse, which is chapter
four 137 158, which says that they only follow conjecture. Exactly. We're almost out of time. Tell us I've heard the argument. And how would you explain this refute this where someone says, then why would God deceive us? By letting us believe that Jesus died? Have you heard this? No, I haven't. But But God doesn't deceive us. God never deceives us we only deceive ourselves, ourselves. You know, mankind is quite adept at deceiving mankind, whether it's one man deceiving another man, or whether it's one person deceiving himself.
were very good at that. But God never deceives mankind. No, never. I don't think it's hard to believe now because even today, you have politicians, you have people and what a lot of times move people who aren't just an honest is power and money. Did you have a lot of that going on at that time so you can kind of see where you know,
the truth can kind of get bent and texts can get changed? Well, certainly, texts were changed at times for theological reasons.
Yeah, certainly politics had a great deal to do with some of the decisions that came out of some of the early church councils that said, Yeah, I was when you read and study the history, if there's any truth to this, where you'll see that the Greeks also at that time they used to worship Apollo, the son of Jupiter, is it and then you had a lot of the sacrifice that they were also doing to these gods and you had a mithras was it that kind of was also born, died had a son? And yeah, you know, there there was a common theme and Middle Eastern religions, about a dying and regenerating fertility God, yeah.
You know, the fertility, God would die seasonally, and then be regenerated, the spring, and the ground would once again become fertile, etc. You know, we have sort of the same thing in Greek mythology with diameter and per Stephanie, where she spends the winter and Hades and so it becomes cold and nothing will grow. And then the summer or the spring, she comes back to earth and things grow again. But this notion of a dying and regenerating fertility, God was very common in the Middle East.
At the time of the Israelites, we have notions of a dying, regenerating God, and the Osiris myth in Egypt. mythology as well, seems like someone really has to be sincere, because this is, see, I know one thing my field is, I train people in martial arts. And there's no easy way. You got to work for what you want. Now, there's no magic pill that you take, and now you're this complete martial artist, or you take this magic pill and you lose 200 pounds. But it seems like you know, people always like that easy way. They always sign up for those easy programs. And the other people that know the business, they know some people are profiting off this. The weakness of the human being
always wanted the easy way. Do you think that this is one of those catches that you know what's easy, I got the JC gold card. I call it and you just charge it on, put it on Jesus's back. Do you see that this is one of those things where people just out of being kind of not wanting to investigate not wanting to look forward that they just take this easy way and just roll with it.
I think that's probably true of some people. Yeah, I wouldn't say that's true of everyone who accepts it. But certainly I think there's a danger in people saying I believe in Jesus, I accept the gift of his crucifixion, and his sacrifice for me. And that's my get out of jail card, or my get out of hell card, if you will. And so having accepted that now I can basically do anything I want.
And it almost boils down to that. Yeah.
That one's behavior is of no consequence whatsoever. If you have this faith, as they would define it, then you're Humphrey, the correct thing now that you can give advice again, before we close, and we talked about some of your books real quick, that person who is sincere and honest, and he's not wanting to get into the polemics and that he just wants to do what God wants him? Yeah. Well, as you were saying, there's no easy way. One basically has to study.
And for Christians, to study your Bible. And when I say study your Bible, first of all, I would urge you to go get a copy of the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible, if you don't already have it, because it typically goes back to not the originals, so we don't have the originals, but to the oldest texts that we still have. And secondly, get yourself a very good Bible Commentary, to help you understand what you're reading in the Bible, and to provide helpful background information.
For example, you can look at the interpreters one volume commentary on the Bible came out around 1971, or 74.
And that's a very helpful one. It's a huge thick thing.
But study, this is what you have to do if you want to try and get to the truth, study. And the other thing I would say, pray on it, pray on it. So don't, don't pray
for a specific answer.
Pray to God simply to make it clear to you yeah, but the truth is simple. You know, don't try and skew it. Don't say, God, please prove this to me. simply say, God, please make it clear to me what the truth is. That's simple way in which one of these books now you got a few of them that covers this a little more detail, the crucifixion event, two books do the cross and the cross cross and the cross and the other one would be the Abrahamic faiths Abrahamic faiths and they
can go to Dirks online books.com as they see it written on the screen, and we look forward to inshallah, God willing having you back again, thank you very much for helping us clear up this topic. And like to thank you for sitting tight to another episode of the deen show, we really hope sincerely that you got to benefit. We are not afraid that you open your mind and study, look into your own book. But do that really form an investigation? take a time out from the rat race a life from the materialism and chasing the dollar and being a slave to the dollar into a man and to a woman. Be a slave to your Creator. Sincerely humbly ask him to guide you. We say that the Quran is
the verbatim Word of God. We're not going to force it upon you. If you've been having attachment to the Bible, look into it, look into it from a different light. And you'll see the consistency that God has always sent messengers, and did him come with this theology philosophy that God is coming to die for the sins of the world. They came with the same message that there's only one God surrender submit to Him sincerely in peace. And this is summed up in one word Islam and one who does this and makes this conscious decision is what a Muslim so we believe that all the messengers was Muslim. And that's it for this episode of the deen show. We hope to see you next week again inshallah God
Willing until that I sit on alaikum peace be unto you.
eats comb eats lady everybody sleepy
and ask a lot of thinking me Oh la You see, oh la you know, oh, the sins I do. I turn to you to begin
runs away. Oh Allah guide me