#842 – Dr. Jamal Badawi & Dr. Sabeel Ahmed
Channel: The Deen Show
Episode Transcript ©
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Everybody should watch this and see how you were just so composed. stoic. You know you didn't lose your cool you didn't want to punch him like many people would just you know snap. Oh, you got a problem.
And what does that supposed to mean to me?
You're not my brother.
You're not my brother.
Are you? Are you a Muslim? I welcome all of you to this unique event, strengthening the bond of humanity by serving all those in need. Bismillah Alhamdulillah Assalamualaikum welcome all we are here on a D show. And I have two special guests. I got my good friend, Dr. Sybil. I'm a director of game peace. And Dr. Jamal Badawi who's an author, PhD professor emeritus at St. Mary's. He's also was teaching management and religious studies. Since 1962, he's been in the field of Dawa that's our topic that's we're gonna be discussing. I'm sorry.
1963 we have two esteemed guests. Salaam licona. Both of you. How are you?
So how you guys been? I see often because Knoxville he was in Chicago. But you were We were together. What? A few years ago, Dr. Jamal, how you been since then? Yes. I forgot where? And when?
memory problems. So you've probably got a lot of memories. I mean, with meeting with people such as Have you with our old teacher, both of ours, Dr. Amir Lee? And how about how about
I didn't have much interaction with him. But we were both in one program in the UK. And also when he had his debate with I think Dr. Floyd or whatever his name I forgot. In, in London, in a measure of debates.
I was I was just going as an audience and somebody picked me and say Yusuf Islam wants you to make introduction to Islam in so many units, and also to moderate it.
Moderate so that this just limited interaction. But of course, I have access to most of these books. When Dr. Seville when zakhar nyck was in I believe in Chicago. He had his debate, Dr. Seville was also there, I believe, moderating, and you were you were there also at that time? Yes. Yes. I was on the side of Dr. Decker's.
And the night before we discuss some of the issues was very enjoyable discussion.
And that and that's you the young, that's the the younger version of you how to be there. You were moderating for the for the zakhar night Campbell debate. Yes, yes, this was 20 years ago. This was first of April 22,000. Actually, where Dr. Jamal Badawi Mashallah, he gave us a briefing the night before the debate between Dr. Zakir Naik and Dr. William Campbell. And I can still remember Mashallah, Dr. Zaki, like taking the notes, Dr. Jamal Badawi was there on the stage as a support from the law. So it is a really impactful Debate or discussion we had the day. So that's what we want to gain one again, from, you know, the experiences of others, especially people who've been in
Dallas for such a long time, you know, some of the, you know, where some of the young people coming up can learn from people's mistakes, some of the things that you know, many of the gems of wisdom that are out there, so we don't make some of the same mistakes, and we can just all Excel to do a better job at sharing this message, this beautiful message of Islam.
Okay, let me take a few minutes, at least to set the stage. Because it looks like the main problem is not that some people are enthusiastic and sincere about giving Dawa. But I think we need to examine quite carefully also how to do that. And that's from puranic perspective, with a couple of exams, I try to be as brief as possible. seven points. First of all, to do that, when we get guidance from Surah, to national, the 16 Sora. Invite on to the way of your Lord with wisdom and kind advice and only debate with them in the best manners. Wisdom is a great word. That means my definition in the context of Dharma saying the right thing
to the right person in the right time and circumstances in the right way. That's a lot Can I spend
quite a bit of time, discerning this dimensions of wisdom, but the other side
it's not only wisdom or good knowledge, but also kindness, kindness. Second,
never rewind the circuit think of other religions. Even whatever the worship besides Allah, or instead of Allah, the Quran is very clear, let me refer to
all believers do not insult what they invoke besides Allah, even if they were like idols
or they will insult Allah spitefully out of ignorance.
The third add that of
fairness with others, and openness. And in fact, I spent slightly more time maybe a few more seconds of two key areas and on of not the arrogant approach to debate, not the idea of beat you down. You're wrong, and I'm right. Even if that might be true. This appears, some people wish to check on that that is so that separate the 34th surah in the Quran in Aya, 20. Yes, 24 and five. Okay, I read the first translation of the first one, ask them meaning of profit.
Oh provides for you from Heavens and the Earth, say, Allah femoris formation, nobody will deny that.
Certainly one of us is rightly guided, and the other is clearly astray. Pamela, at least, either you're right than wrong. Or I'm wrong. Can you write the confidence here that spewed This is but look at this, not your right let's discuss it.
And then the following the sensor is 85 say you say to your adversaries or your
other sites, if you call
you will not be accountable for our misdeeds.
So mistakes for us as Muslims even imagine the ferns.
Nor will you be nor will we be responsible for your
of your misdeeds. No, it says you have deeds a term that could be good deeds or bad deeds. That is the ultimate of fairness and humility without compromising an ounce.
Number four, focus on the essential things.
If somebody wanted to know about Islam, they they have oftentimes a spiritual vacuum. And there's some stuff telling them philosophical things and so on, but without reaching their heart, and that's why the area that we
translated, kind of advice Heckman one more other
but more either literally also means exaltation, something to reach not only the mind, but something that reaches the heart and often times we miss that especially with people looking for some feeling. The respect is ritual vacuum and removal of the confusions, alone. And then
number five, don't forget to be graduate. All profits will graduate with their people and board lots of insults and mockery and all of that and they never started dealing with people in this inappropriate manner. You can find a variety of example in the lives of the Prophet and most importantly in the life of Prophet Muhammad SAW the love and use
that even the prohibition of drinking as you know, some stages because you know, people need that kind of Breaking Bad habits. But yes, yeah. And now is complete, that the drinking is around
But we can learn that lesson also in breaking people, and I'll just give you an illustration. I had a very good friend, Mashallah, who is active in our and is a professor also. And one time he came to me and he said, Look, I have a friend that really, really was interested in Islam, we used to have no like coffee together whatsoever, very close friends. And one time he came to him and he said, you know, that other person.
He said, Brother, I am really now ready. I am convinced of Islam, it makes a whole lot of sense to me, in mind and heart. So the Muslim brother told him, but I know you think, and if you want to be a Muslim, you have to stop drinking, because it is how long
that person was just on the verge of taking Shahada said I am certain I would have loved to, but I can't stop drinking. Now, this is part of my life.
So he asked me he was feeling sort of guilt. And he asked me he did do something wrong. Am I not supposed to say that any compromise? I said no.
What you said was not wrong, it is the right thing that ranking is haram
but how to present that to someone who can stop right now, you can tell him
this is haram, but it does not prevent you from taking Shabbat and inshallah, once you become a Muslim, Allah who will open your heart, but you should have the intention to change that. You said that Ruth, but it needed to be presented in a different way.
This is a practical example that I
was involved in myself. Six of seven,
avoid, I can say
discussion or argument. Not all arguments are bad. Because in one of the verses we said, it says, argue with the pupil of the book with what is best and kindness and so on. So argument itself could be positive, could be negative. But in the Arabic language as we find it one of the hadith of Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. There is another term is called Mirror, Mirror, mirror, actually referred to not only just the date of discussion, or argument, but since arguing you go in like a broken record. The person doesn't want to listen even keep interrupting that case,
it is useless and futile, and my just hardened feelings on both sides. And that's why the profits are the lower he was in them. Because I am in charge of a place and paradise for those who leave Mira sensors are being faced and shouting in Beijing.
Okay, even if he's right, even if you're right, don't get involved in that. And finally, relax, relax,
upset or angry. If you feel that you've done your very best to present through Islam as best as you can, as convincingly as you can, but the person did not respond. Relax, because the Quran says, even to the Prophet, you don't guide someone you love, but it is Allah who guides and there are many people, contemporaries of the Prophet relative, like his uncle's Abu lahab. And, and
the and the new of the honesty and truthfulness of the Prophet. But the
last panel is the one who holds the guidance. So relax.
I think this is just I don't even want to go into details of live examples. But I want to come and chat with Dr. Seville. What advice do you have to help us and those who are fulfilling the obligation of sharing the purpose of life with the people communicating this message of having it done in the prophetic manner? Yeah, Bismillah Alhamdulillah wa Salatu was Salam ala rasulillah Allah Allah he was out he had made my bed. Well, first and foremost desire loafer and whether Eddie and especially our really special guest, Dr. Jamal Badawi The good news is this
Alhamdulillah many people more now than before that I can think of they're entering into the field of Dawa
using the social media using the Dawa table, especially open houses, right billboards and buses and TV and radio. They're using many, many platforms. So that's the good news.
However, we need to remind ourselves that the proper interactions that we can do with our non Muslim brothers and sisters based upon the prophetic example and I'm really glad that Dr. Jamal but we Mashallah in a really comprehensive way, the seven points that you mentioned, really struck home with me. And when I was young Dr. Jamal by the way I also used to see people doing different ways of Dawa.
I was always attracted towards your form of Dawa which with a smile with compassion with empathy, you know, with softness. So that was you were my role model and you're still my role model, Mashallah writes I'm really glad that you are able to present the points to remind myself and to remind other people.
What many people would say brother Eddie, is that you know, we have to be firm with the non Muslims, you know, with the kuffaar because they are abusing the Prophet. They are defaming, they are debating and they give all of these excuses to be harsh with the non Muslims to debate with them and shout at them and laugh at their ignorance. They're just making it personal.
So one quick advice or quick reminder for myself and all of those, you know, brothers and sisters, Mashallah they have good intentions. Is that when Allah subhanaw taala, before he sent Prophet Musa alayhis salaam to figure out who is the greatest of all the tyrants in Surah Taha it mentions to your own or to musala salaam that to be soft in the speech with is approaching fit all
right, so you know the current people may that be David boats or Sam Shimon and people like that they're not bigger tyrants then you know, obviously those are you know, ferroan and other people like that. So we need to make sure a reminder to me because sometimes emotions gets the best of us. We need to remind ourselves always, what would the Prophet do so the Lord is alone if he were in our situation.
Similarly, the way that masala Salaam was told to be soft to even fair on, we need to be soft with the people and making sure that we win their hearts and minds, we cannot make it personal. As Dr. Jamal Badawi mentioned, present Islam the best way possible, pray to Allah to guide them, whatever happens between them, and a loss of another life between them and Allah subhanaw taala at least we have done our job.
So I would say that these are some of the thoughts that were rushing to my mind, Mashallah, when he was listening to this excellent, seven points of our dear chef now that's just not in talk because a lot of people get tested and you actually got tested. Dr. Seville, and I like for us to show this clip. Sure. That's very clear. Oh, you got a problem?
And what does that supposed to mean to me?
You're not my brother.
You're not my brother.
Are you? Are you a Muslim?
Were you actually had this? This? What do you want to call him? I mean, he could be called, you know, so many different names, but we won't, you know, exhort to that. But he's really, you know, testing your patience. This guy goes. He goes around different MOS masjids. He stands in front of the mouse with different signs, you knows, slandering and provoking. He does a lot of provoking instigating, he's looking to get a rise, and he came up against you. And I think this should be textbook and everybody should watch this and see how you were just so composed. stoic. You know, you didn't lose your cool you didn't want to punch him like many people would just you know, snap. Tell
us about that experience Knoxville share for two years ago, I mean, before COVID at the mat at the economic mass convention in Washington, DC. I think you were also there here. So I was walking with my family towards the main hall. So I was walking from the hotel to the hall. So we pass on the street, in which this person really big, muscular rewriter, maybe three times my size himself and few of his, you know, people, they were holding this nasty science against prophet against Islam, right? They were abusing our women, our goals. I mean, they were wearing the hijab and passing by. So I came close to him. No religion is killing people right now as you and I are talking
is like taking the life of all of humanity and saving one life, my friend, but when you heal, they're not innocent.
Let me check it out. You have anything picking on you? What do you want to walk away? You got a bad attitude. I don't trust you. So
I approached him, and I said, you know, my brother in humanity, how can I help you? You're here.
I was thinking, yes, Allah sent him over here. So we conveyed to him the message of Islam. So that was Those were the thoughts coming to my mind. And obviously, as a human being I was also emotional, I was angry, but I want to find out how would the Prophet behave in that situation.
So in those five minute or 10 minute interaction Alhamdulillah, I was thinking, you know what this person is a child, like a two year old, you don't get like two year old people, you don't, you know, get angry at them and smack them. You just have empathy for them.
So in those five or 10 minutes interaction,
I wanted to convey to him the message of Islam, and I think, you know, with a lot help, obviously, I conveyed to him, he had some misconceptions about age of eyeshadows, yellowtail, and how about, you know, muslim terrorist and whatnot.
I conveyed that to him at the end of the conversation. Towards the end of the conversation, there was this lady who was passing by.
And this lady, she was just observing both of us, right, she was not part of, you know, either me or his group. And she came close to him, and she told him, you know, what,
if I were a non Muslim, I would choose Islam, looking at the behavior between this Muslim person and this nun, and you, he, she was telling that to this guy, at the end of the conversation, Chef, he said, you know, can you give a few copies of the Quran for myself and my group?
So Hamdulillah, you know, I mean, this is all from Allah subhanaw taala that we need to not make it personal, we need to have over call, we need to remind how the Prophet salallahu alaihe salam, the best day of all time, how he used to be here, what, what interactions used to have with empathy, smile, compassion, kindness. So there's a good reminder, Mashallah for me and for all of us. Dr. Jamal Badawi who, as I said earlier, you are pretty much the corner man, Chef corner chef for all pretty much most of Dr. zakhar Knights debates, and why did he choose you specifically? You know,
I have been honored actually before I saw Dr. Becker's that in early times actually honored
me by bringing his crew even, and come to visit me and in Halifax. And Dr. Decker, to his credit, is a very eager researcher and seeker of knowledge. So he was aware he must have seen some of these of this tapes that were mentioned in the introduction.
At that time, we had them in half inch video, of course, that's quality
is zero, who needs it? Anyway, half inch, and he said, I would like to buy the entire
the entire series, which was quite a big one.
So at least you seem to have been familiar
with this kind of humbling contribution, and very enthusiastic about it and Alhamdulillah we found that we are on very much the same.
was invited by him also to India, Mumbai, I forgot whether it was one time or two time where he speaks, addressing hundreds of 1000s of people. Yeah, peace conference, is that we also was that was I there one time at the same time when you were there? Yes, actually, he invited on me also for
a presentation, even though I wasn't needed in his presence and other great scholars.
So Alhamdulillah we wish we have very similar approach and I believe, again, he is
quite a soft that
generally speaking, Danny, this speaks with logic with coolness. And he's been challenged, if you watch his steps with some hostile type of questions, and he keeps his scroll and start giving the answer addressing the question of brother sister something of that nature.
So I think there are some similar and I find the same similarity with Dr. Sabine also learned that this is not me or X or Y. It is see the the purity of Islam
Correct wasapi Islam just bans which is a Quranic concept. And the mod when learns about the character of the prophet SAW Selim, the history of the Prophet recited the Quran frequently reflected on it
presents quite a bit of a different chord than those who some even reject the notion of dialogue, again, is that altogether
alluded to that. And some think that any discussion on slam will have to be a debate with winners and losers and putting that that women
have had this suit just crush their arguments.
Alhamdulillah I agree with Dr. Seville's.
You know, optimism on that, but we have to work hard, really, on many sincere brothers and sisters who are enthusiastic, we want to do something for dollar by maybe gently also
discuss those issues. Maybe I suggest perhaps some training program for
I think some sometimes it happens, at least on regional basis will be now you have a ton of experience debating. And that's my next question is which one of those people that you debated and people go put? Dr. Jamal Badawi? You're one of the originals over here that was in the Americas debating many of those who are out there trying to defend Islam and clear the misconceptions deliver the truth to them? Which one would you say was it that was the most disrespectful that was the most vile that you really had to hold back? and talk to us about maybe some of the things that you know, maybe the mistakes you made things that you've learned from a longer younger version of you? Was it
I'm guessing was a doctor was it was a shadows?
You remember that one of these shadows? What is it?
I'm not inclined to mention names okay. to simply say that my definite preference when I was invited to speak on various campuses or communities is a dialogue form, not debate form, dialogue, dialogue form, give and take, you have limited time also for each side. rebuttals. Respect for the question answer from the audience. And in some cases, some of these cases we live liking each other, and shaking hands and so on. Lacan, Gino, Kamali again but with with respect.
But I must admit that sometimes you get people
who push you
to debate, I don't like it.
But there was a case, for example, where I didn't choose that, but some University
chapters, MSC chapters called me. And they said, and I prefer to use x y, Zed X percent has been going around in all campuses, and say, I, no Muslim leader and speaker
could ever answer me. And then, in one case, as narrated to me, he said, and that includes a man letter we
did you want to debate with me?
One of the students got out, called me on the phone. I said, I don't know the name of that person. I haven't encountered them. Did he invite you? Never. Are you winning? I said yes.
Because they felt very imbalanced in a difficult question race, nobody, as you claim is able to answer them. So it is not like a challenge personnel or anything. But to clarify these issues, we have to protect our people also from this distortion. Say said Oh, then they asked me who and I said, Look, I give give a good number of traces.
So they went to him. And after he finished his presentation, I don't know well, because there wasn't that they told me. They said Sir, you say that Jamal but that we
never accepted your invitation. He said they never received such invitation. Are you willing then to debate him?
Some noted some kind of hesitation on his Park. So they sat with him afterwards. He said, When can we arrange that?
This date? No. This is the graduation of my daughter this date? No, I'm booked
It was all big list before me, you're running away, not to my brother. So he was embarrassed. So we had to accept one of those dates.
So, and Hamdulillah, all graces, diplomas. And even then, of course, as a younger person at the time,
in a situation that they don't necessarily like what someone was laughing about the profits of the lawyers and learning all kinds of offensive things.
I try to control as much as possible, not that no human is perfect. And then some points, I have to respond very strongly to show that he doesn't know what he's talking about. But not in a way of putting down but just a person like that should be discredited. In fact, you make the distortion and false allegation. But even after that, I was talking to some brothers, the audience. I said, forgive me, this is not my nature at all. But this kind of
situation, I had to be stronger than Affirmative.
They certainly know what are you talking about? You're so patient, and I've waited to your, your place, I would have taken my shoes and littered with it.
like this, but
the overwhelming approach was respectful dialogue, I was going to present a few, a few scenarios that, you know, the current dice in the world, may that be in the UK, US, Australia, that we have seen, unfortunately, they have made it as a norm. So one thing would be that, you know, they start calling like this, regard this abusive names to the people that they're debating it I mean, I'm not going to call out the names, obviously, I'm not going to call out the people who are doing it, but what advice would you give them because they call these names and laugh at the people with some made up name around their real name? So what advice would you give, then have a few other scenarios
inshallah I think we need to do totally shared with them, like some of the points mentioned in the introduction, that we are forbidden, from revealing the false gods of others, let alone individuals who might have their own thinking and maybe in the future, Allah would would guide them that this kind of treatment is I think it was your doctor service that once he was Dida, our what or
and he did that like it is contract down. It drives people away from Islam. So that's a core Anak instruction. So when we're gentle with people, Bill FirstNet, as the Quran teaches, the letter X and not what is good, best, even more than good.
That opens not only people's hearts, but their minds as well. And often times, if you get in that debate, type, confrontational
It's as if you want to have victory over the other side. So you may be able to win the argument, but lose the audience. So I have to keep in mind also, how people respond to harsh versus soft and logical thing and let them decide this, that's a command of the soul. Those who want to do now at least should read
and maybe some trainings session might be useful, maybe also telling expression of some of the misunderstood issues of women or violence and so on to help each other do a better job but gently, Doc, severe duck severe you're going to you're going to share some some more examples with us. Yes, I had a like a quick list, I was going to quickly you know, have our share, provide his wisdom with the puranic is and the the prophetic colleagues. So some people what they do is unfortunately, they lack they laugh at the lack of knowledge of the opponent to such an extent that you know, now it feels so embarrassing when people watch especially non Muslims watching that, you know, Muslims are
laughing and just distancing themselves when they're debating with with these non Muslims. So what would you say to them? You know, I sent you a video clip. We're not calling any names, but what would you advise
In those situations,
I'd say if, if someone is known about his abusive language and offensive language, actually,
it is not.
It is quite appropriate to avoid it. I know some people might say, oh, because you answered No, but you could avoid it, but study what they say and make a video on that topic. Or my case. Some people tell tell me that in our campus, they will this this decent objections about Islam, so that we have a general title of a lecture or something. And these are answered without saying, so and so said that, because he might be in the audience and maybe Allah might open his heart. But if you put him in that hard position, and show that he doesn't understand shape,
stick to the issue, stick to the issue. And by the way, it is also another practical pragmatic part of not being harsh with people, in addition of its contradiction to the Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet sallallahu Sallam that you tell them, what are you accomplishing? Now? People might be leaving more angry about STEM, because you're attacking their religions and laughing at the beliefs.
Isn't there a chronic idea that says that if people are abusing your faith in some gathering and whatnot, we should just avoid it correct? Exactly. For laptop automatons. If you find people are talking something inappropriate and so on.
It says don't stay with them until they change didn't say leave harness, until at least they hold up hobbies and I mean, speak about something else other than, you know, the inappropriate language or talk that they had. Because meeting with people also, and gaining their confidence is a means of our especially by a good example.
Also, you may have heard about speaker's corner in London, what happens there is you may have right so there's like shouting matches going on between people of different faiths, no face and unfortunately, now it became like a, you know, default state of the Muslims going there that they have shouting matches. And when people look at it, you know, they're sincere non Muslims, it appears as if this is the way that Muslims preach Islam or share their message. What advice would you give to the young people out there, especially the Muslim brothers and sisters, they have excellent passion, excellent intention, but then for that methodology, what would you advise? And that's not
the way when the Prophet sallallahu wasallam received the message and received the command of Allah to declared the message in public. He didn't stand up and say,
this evil, I don't send these drunk people and this and this and that. No, this is just say, of course, you know, famous from this year. If I tell you that there is an army behind this mountain, would you believe me? So you know, we never experienced you telling like that, then I am awarded to you from last panel tired of tournament or punishment, meaning, of course, if you don't believe in Allah keep the fight. You might land in
the Hellfire and so on. But he did not, you know, make it by shouting. And when he stood there also, this is a perfect example of his personality. After he finished that
his uncle abused him.
had bad luck. He said, may you perish? I think Abdullah and he's even in front of all people
that were like me your parish is this is why you gather to us. In other words, you go that as to tell us about some good news about the profits trade this day. And you're telling us that stuff he was joking
believing in alone, a fairer or Good, good moral behavior? He just never responded he didn't answer.
But Allah Subhana Allah answered for him as we see and so that lab and defended him is not that old, you will perish. But Abu lahab is the one who will perish with and there's a jazz is an amazing thing. And this a because Abu lahab could have fought it the message of Islam in its bet in the very beginning.
Because a bola have could come and pretend that he became Muslim. For example,
And, of course,
tongue in cheek, said that Mohamed Salah was clean that he received revelation from Allah and that I will go to the Hellfire, but now I am a Muslim. What does it mean? The Quran is not true Subhan Allah, how could Abu lahab not think of that simple thing to destroy the message?
Yes, except that Allah knew that you will never believe until his death
he lived for many, many years after that, you know, I will have your right you know, one single statement the Muslims would have been shaken in their faith, you know what, this is what the Quran is saying and this is what this person is coming? No. So, who is right, the prophecy. So shareport some people do is
they unfortunately they say that you know what, we have to be harsh and firm with those people because they are abusing and they are harsh with us.
I think even though we covered it, anything else you want to add to that aspect? Because we want to just you know remind ourselves and those the word Mashallah they have good intention, we are harsh, because they are harsh kind of attitude, know what cannot, cannot continue and that, like you said they speak according to anyone passing by, they say oh, there is there are two bunches of angry people from
many people even don't want to waste their time this guy, but I don't mind if there is a corner speaking positive about Islam for those who are interested. No shouting, no. No rebuttal of other people but rebuttal in in a given issue something even you don't say they say it, some people argue this, this. But if we really go back to the origin of the original scripture, we find this this and that.
You're gonna have to say the wrong let people respect their intelligence, that will conclude what is right and what's wrong.
But never shouting, something doesn't lead anywhere, but allow cyclon and let we have example at the time of the Prophet sallallahu sallam, when I was sitting with a bobak love your loved one. And when man came and abused our bobak
show sure we kept silent about back in the prophets. Then he abused in second thing. In the third time, our bucket is a human even though he's known for his gentleness. He responded to that person who abused him twice.
as that happened, the Prophet sallallahu Sallam left
the message that they were sitting there, he left. So a provocateur, and after him What did I do something wrong? Does that upset you? He said, Look, when he abused you the first time the engine answered him for you. The second time they answered him for you. But once you started reciprocating, then the engines went away, left and I didn't want to didn't want to continue sitting in a place where the angels left.
Yeah, yeah. You know, I was
I was discussing like today's topic with my wife and she said, you know, Seville, tried to mention the incident in which that Bedouin came inside the prophets Masjid and urinated. And house of the Prophet was even to that person who defile the masjid. Exactly, exactly. He didn't condone it, but he didn't act like some of the companions were just about to jump on em. Even said, Let him finish. It's so painful. It's already but of course, the the, the floor of the mosque was not a fancy carpet, it was like pebbles and Earth. Just it just put some water on it. But and then the Prophet came gently to him say this place is not for these things, but it is for prayer. This he said that
the man was so impressed with the kindness of the Prophet even who did a terrible thing.
Some narration say that he said, Oh, Allah, have mercy on me. And Muhammad, and no one is ugly. He said, don't you don't, you don't restrict the mercy of Allah, which is so important, impressive. So this is an example of numerous example of that, and the gentle way of resolving patience, but teaching us what one that comes to mind was can you share that was there one situation where the man actually put his hands on him, and he pulled his he pulled what he was wearing and actually left a mark on him.
What was that all about? I think he was
needing to get some, you know that like the beta man, the Muslim places for what do you keep the, you know, the greens, the dates, in some places, even some animals that would be a second In any case, so that man
wanted to get something. So he almost like you said choke the profits of the lawyers and and and you say give me
this is not your money. This is the money of Allah
as middle column, that's that's was an incident where I think if I'm not mistaken the drama about the Alamo and
sought permission of the prophet to just punish him even some narration and say, let me hit his or cut off his head or something and the profit signals
and then he gave him more he gave him more on top of it and they say all right, are you satisfied now is is that a separate situation where we see that there was a Jewish scholar, a Jewish scholar who had seen the signs, but one of them that he wanted to put the test was the forbearance that this messenger to come would have forbearance meaning that if you're able to punish that you don't end up punishing and whatnot so he gave him a loan and then he came back purposely a short time while let's say it was like six months he came after a month or something and then he started insulting and he started to you know, use defamatory language whatnot in front of everybody and then it testing him
so this is also another situation on top of this one it was not only yeah that's a different one not only the sub the profits or the loss and his whole clan you burn metallic or people are so lacks in paying what they owe to other people who you really push it and now
he's really there he's really pushing it now pushing it not only you but you you guys all you know your clan are all people that are not almost implying dishonest and you don't want to pay what you owe to others. You keep dragging your heels.
But he ended up accepting Islam after all this is that correct? Does Jewish scholar Yeah, there is.
I'm not sure about that. But there is the story where a Jew accepted Islam. In fact, it was during the time of the idea of the Allah one who was very close to the Prophet, his son in law and you know, and his
what happened is that while I lived there long on was, you know, coming back on his camel,
actually his shield, you know that the use for protection was a shield fell off. And that you pick that up
as a leader of your loved one, so that you some say in the market or industry is it doesn't matter. The differences in truth isn't
Yeah, insignificant. So I laid out the outline so that you with his
carrying his property, maybe he was going to sell it or something.
look at his behavior as compared with the Thailand stuff today. You could call all the capitalists and military this and military that and just take it from him and punish him.
Because to him like any citizen and he was that the head of the state.
Mirror look beneath all the head of all the Muslim believer.
And he goes to him and says this is my shield.
And you say no,
I have it.
Is that truthful? In a way? I have it.
What did the earlier of your lawn do? He went to his own judge? known as sure right.
So his own judge, so the head of the state and an ordinary person from minority even
group to give his case to the judge that judges amazing in his fairness and what how Islam really got into his heart and all his actions.
Wonder why I said that. The Jew concerning the judge asked her first ID. So he asked him by his nickname. Yeah, bye
has an awful lot of hassle.
So the judge objected to that. You called me with my nickname. And you call him by his name. You mean ali ali objected to it on the original. The judge the judge, objective, okay. The judge objected that he called the hill called daddy by his nickname. In other words, as you call him by name, accordingly also by
panela, because nickname is like this, moreover, affectionate then call him,
God me by name like him.
So, the judge, should I say, the alley, whatever it is, you have?
I think some generation say that hasn't.
He said, No, we don't accept testimony of close relatives. You have any other evidence? He said, No, but this is my sheet. And I know
so because I am sorry, I cannot rule in your favor. I ruled in favor of that Jew, who had
the Jew was struck. And he said, ameerul momineen, the commander of believers,
take me to his own judge, and his own judge rule in my favor. By God, this is not the behavior and character of ordinary people. This is the character of prophets of Allah. I bear with this, there is no God, but Allah. And Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah accepted Islam on this path level. And when we came back to it, he says, I'm sorry. Yes, this shield is yours. It felt and acts. Okay.
So it looks at him said didn't, didn't take it. He said, Okay. Having become my brother in Islam. I'll give that back to you. As a gift.
Where do you find models like this, Dr. Seville, you were going to give any more examples that you wanted to share.
It's not an example. It's an observation. We days when people make those debating videos like speakers corners, or you know, some other place where people have Davos and shouting matches between Muslim and the Christians coming there. It is not just between those two individuals, when these videos are uploaded, literally 10s. And hundreds and 1000s of people are watching even the non Muslims, even those who may be like sincere, they want to just learn. But with these shouting matches, sometimes in the with the behavior of the Muslims also there. I fear and I cry many times that we are turning people off from Islam. And they may hold you know us responsible on the Day of
Judgment, we saw the behavior of the Muslims, their teachings, and we were not attracted by it.
So what would you say? I mean, you know, literally, it's not just two individuals debating 1000s of people are getting affected negatively, sometimes, especially in our age of social media and all of this, you're quite right. So not damaged on doing damage into the 50 or 100. audience. You're doing damage of 1000s of others. So it is a de the hour. It is driving people away from Islam that we're not even in the lecture or there's no question about that. I must you have experienced also Dr. Seville, of dialogue takes place. And occasionally someone come after that. And either he says, I want to become a Muslim, or says I'm really interested, Sam, how can I get a copy of the Quran,
which normally shows great interest and sometimes down the line? Maybe Allah Subhana Allah would open their heart. You have you have so many debates out there again, people can go on YouTube. And there many of them are an SD standard definition but you know, and then you have all the tapes, you have over 300 plus tapes, you know,
clearing the misconception of Islam delivering the message. Do you have a What was your experience with people such as who are still I think out there they're out there doing dialogues debate so and did he did he end up at least a little bit? You know, changing some of his perceptions about Islam someone like academic William Craig, who you debated or had a dialogue with that some of his that afterwards that you got, did he come to you and say hey, he that he changed his position on anything. I don't remember that specific incident but it's quite, quite not but that some of the obvious because it hamdulillah It was a very civilized
debate even though we started by saying
You cannot have to write one and be right and one is wrong. So the line of code that is left is wrong. Didn't really cause me on hamdulillah.
Except to address the issue
objectively, but I just want to correct one thing. Actually, it is not 352 tapes, it's 352, half hour programs, kind of our programs, when we had the taping, originally on the old three quarter inch with these big ones, each tape accommodated to
with the, the, the regular video, we could have like as many as for two hours, four hours just wanted to, you probably heard some ridiculous arguments, one that just stands out. I remember there was a person also that you had a debate or dialogue with Robert Morey. I think one of his arguments was that Muslims worship the moon, I think he started this right. So moon God that came from him, right? That. But again, I didn't some Muslim say, Oh, this damaging our face and Allah. I said all right. The Quran says, of the signs of Allah are the sun and the moon worship are prostrate not to the sun, or moon, but for straight to Allah who created them is indeed him that you worship. So if
you have a strong effort, and that's why I'm saying one of the
necessary training for that is to be aware of these things. I'm not saying that especially those show patented, there's nothing but but to be able to ferment and title hamdulillah it was very easy to refer to the Koran chapter and verse that because the other thing that would help and our if you read the background or see some of the debates or writing of people that might help you even get the time to document your answer right from the court. So why, why if you have bad
amazing evidence from the Quran, do you have to get angry? Isn't it cool? So there's someone like that, who such a ridiculous argument. So he you know, so you so easily eloquently, you know, refuted it at the end, they retract, you know, make a retraction apologize, come back. So you know what, I messed up there. I didn't you know, I was misinformed. any of that. That is very weird. But I remember there was a scholar, I prefer to speak with even or dialogue with scholars within the faith. And sometimes they have calendric political position as well. And they remember it distinctly I forget, I think it was Minneapolis
he made various mkuze speaking, isn't happening. But he made several mistakes. So my response? I said, Yeah, I appreciate, you know, his attempt to understand this. But in my humble understanding if according to the footer, and it is this is this. So there were four or five things, but not, you're wrong on this. You're just very gently like that. You know, when he stood up often? He said, Yeah, as the first word that they said about this. That's helpful. Meaning I accept, you don't have to say no, I was on that's so four or five times. He says this, that was helpful. I'm thankful for this. But that
is not the character of the well known debaters know, the negative one. Sometimes we attract attention by being so negative and attacking and play on people's hatred.
affected by by the media that's easy to do.
So shaped by your saying that we should have our training. So from the law, you know, you may or may not know this, that gain piece has been doing so training hamdulillah we had three parallel training sessions each week,
one by the National Academy of economics from the law that was launched, what this year early this year. We don't have like a Muslim Muslim or seminary, for example, right Muslim training place in which we train the dog and the graduate after six months or two years. So we launched it Alhamdulillah this year. Secondly, we just concluded a Dawa training program for 43 countries, you know, New Zealand all the way to Canada, USA, South America. So they were about 43 countries. And then we have a specialized set our training for sisters only how with the comfort of their home or in the neighborhood.
How they can still convey the message, how they can break the ice and answer some of the easy questions tough questions from the lobby initiated that and obviously we can have more of your input and guidance in that also. But any one more question that I have is this one
that many if you type of, you know, sharing Islam or Dawa online YouTube, many of the debating videos comes in. And unfortunately, what our youth they may be thinking that you know what, this is the norm of doing Dawa, the shouting the laughing the, you know, the abusing. So that's my fear that our children, our youth, our families, they may be thinking this is the default way of doing Dawa. So, can you please enlighten us was debating the norm of the prophet or he avoided it even if he did once in a while, was that the norm or was there some other way that he conveyed the message? Okay, I had caught an idea from the corner and just from memory,
describing the the people of faith what they're saying your own level our loved one will call you, Lana. Amen.
Welcome, Maria. salaam aleikum, Leonard Kj, I think it was the occasion that some
group of Christians came to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam and asked him about Islam. And Alhamdulillah it opened their hearts and they knew that this was the Prophet even scriptures as you aware, alluded to this coming. So they became Muslim. So some of the idolatrous Arab surrounding them and started abusing them. We have not seen any group of people who are idiotic or as idiotic. athma coming is your thing.
You came and you set for a short time with this man satellites and you sit with him and you give up your religion and your history and you follow his religion.
it's looks like a reasonable
occasional revelation is some correct so they reply to them
when they find that they are abusing, okay.
So they says
then Amanda, for us, we're responsible for our deeds, you also have your own deeds. Peace be with you Salah when I like. So then response to abuse. We don't see argumentation with those who are Jalen. Jalen actually could mean, lack of knowledge but in that, in that context, it goes to the a legitimate meaning. jahir means someone who cannot control their emotions, please. So just wrapping up here we have
a little bit of time left, going back to the term arguing the word arguing certain Some people go to one extreme and say okay, that's totally some people who say it's haram to use, you know, argue with someone over the truth. And some people go to extreme where they start, you know, almost fist fighting. So what's the balance now here that you talked about earlier? The Healthy arguing to ascertain the truth.
The Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam himself engaged in interfaith discussion, without any sacrifice of his claim as a prophet, having the truth revealed to him from Allah Subhana sight and the Koran, right that you said this and said, You said that our Allah says this. So there are occasions where he, like just the story I mentioned, this, we're Christians. And they would argue with the Prophet arguing in a positive sense, because I would not imagine Christian,
well, entrenched in that faith, talk to the prophets, I sell them without asking him, What do you say about Jesus, peace be upon him? What's your view of whatever the concept of trends, otherwise, what were they discussing? So that seems to be a you know, a sort of interaction with our fiscally without sacrificing. You don't have to please others by softening to the web that you
commendations of your faith? Yeah, they weren't discussion for you guys. We're always like Dr. Seville. You're shaking your mouth but are we you
You always you never compromise you always delivered the message of the pure monotheism. You know, and in the wisest way with hikma because some people they think like when you come to when you talk about interfaith I mean how do we clarify this it's not coming together and singing Kumbaya.
Yeah, in fact the Quran commands us aside from the evidence I gave already.
When that was you know, Al Kitab itself don't argue with the people decades accepted the rest of it that mean argue,
they say but don't do it, except in the best possible way so that any comment, how could we see?
Okay, so, really quickly going back to that diversifying our da because right now, the debating form of Dawa now becomes such is seeing is like a default way of doing Dawa. But we need to remind ourselves and also to all the wonderful thought out there that the prophetic Dawa was really diversified we have the or it used to invite people on the meal and convey the message used to go knock at the door, she used to go to the market, he used to go to different cities, dictate letters. So in our day and age, Mashallah, last one, Allah has opened many, many platforms. Social media is one obviously, you know, Masjid, open houses, inviting them, socializing with them, you know, giving
them food in eating with them, and then conveying to them to them the message of the heat. You can use the TV, radio, newspapers, in all of these different ways of the verse 100, Allah has opened the doors for us. So just the debating on and on for many, many years with the harshness, unfortunately we need to move people away from that kind of Dawa into more diversified sub Dawa. At the end of the day, this is what I say Dr. Jamal Weatherby
that what we say how we say it, is it bringing people close to us. And we are making us, you know, distance to us.
The problem, of course, that we are challenged that we have to deal with, is that for many people, including Muslims, by the way, and some people of other faith communities as well.
Dialogue is guns, presentation and this. But debate is just like, matching watching.
boxing match wrestling match. So it seems to have an entertaining element. But that is above entertainment of people, especially if drive if it drives people away from Islam, regardless who is the winner of the argument or the loser, it has that attraction. And by the way, better than it might know that more than I do. And
even in the American context, the notion of debate is, is really interesting is when we get two sides on a given issue, vaccines, this this that it sounds more excited. But unfortunately, even those Muslims will take a debating format, they don't do it even like Americans here because even American debates, there is respect there is time.
So they take the worst of debates, approach, and leave the best that could lead people and attract them to Islam. We should really come back when we're doing whatever we're doing to the basics of our intention. What's our intention, you know, checking our ego checking our nests, right? Just for both of you this question, what do you say for people that are out there before we conclude to say no, no, no. And, you know, it's just about, you know, showing your good character, which obviously, that should be the default setting. A lot of people won't even achieve that have great character, but they hide behind that. And they'll say, No, no, it's not our duty to do the Dawa. This is for a
specific group of people and they hide let many people hide behind that what have you guys heard this common excuse?
Yeah, in fact, one of the things in my notes, I did not include it because of time limitation. That even when we talk about how to do that, number one, check your intention. Check your intention. Are you doing that? I'm speaking realistically, so that I get fame as a as a very famous superstar super The day after Saturn can get into us from different routes or am I making this to show my knowledge
is knowledgeable do he knows or not?
Well, I can see this and I have to apply myself every time
You know, try to purify because nobody's free from this hot water site on the steps of Satan. Or for some people even if I come to become superstar, then I can perhaps have some price for my skills and talents. And if you want me to come and debate or this you have to pay me that much a soft law or are we doing that purely for the sake of Allah subhanaw taala try to overcome and dismiss this acts or thoughts that might diminish or even remove your reward with Allah which is far greater than all the
wealth on this earth
is humanity's what we try to justify No, I wanted that through the system would you do something? No, this is the way I made throughs
Yes, I was also here Are you done?
yet yes. Mashallah, you know, those reminders are so touching to her heartbeat needed every single second, not every day, everything second.
What I can also mentioned rather Eddie's that when we look into the Quran, Surah 33, sort of his up Ayah number 21. Allah subhanaw taala says Allah the Quran Allah confira sudler. He has worked on his Anatoly mankind and your your love of Allah, Yamanaka ophira, was the Corolla cathedra. in the person of Muhammad peace be upon him, we have the best example to follow. For those who believe in Allah in the last day and remember so much. So if some people they say, you know what, just be a good person, you know, people will get attracted to you. We need to see from the prophetic example, not only he was the best role model for humanity, he also used to open his mouth, to invite people
to Islam, to share the message. So just being best is one part of the equation. Also informing and inviting them was the complete equation, right? Secondly, some people they may say, let's just work on the Muslims first, once they become good or best, now we can approach the non Muslims. Again, the prophetic example is when the Prophet salla salaam, when he was with the Sahaba, used to give them his law, make their faith strong, but when he was out there with the non Muslims in the public in the marketplace used to convey the message simultaneously, he used to do both. And I say that even the Muslims of that time, not everyone was 100%, perfect. Some of them still used to do dinner and
drink and not come to the masjid, they will find their prayers, the Prophet did not stopped his conveying of the message to the non Muslims just to make the Muslims perfect.
Right, you know, what? The common adage, can you walk and chew gum and listen to music at the same time?
If that is possible, can you have programs to help Muslims look side by side by addressing non Muslims, you can do it. In fact, sometimes the efforts, sincere,
good plan efforts
in trying to help a person accept Islam in suggest they might be much less than some, not all some Muslims who you spend all the time, and they're not movable, and they know better. Even. So, it goes side by side the process them did not do that does not stop
in the middle at the same time they he was teaching his followers and battle earthcam about 40 people this one was tough one, the pillars on which Islam was built because of their sincerity because they accepted Islam in the period of weakness and suffering and risk to their lives even. So, once you get this, but in the meantime, we spoke in public
there is no contradiction. Side by side.
There are about 2 million
people in America ship who die each day average if you just only work on the Muslims trying to make them better. All of these 2 million plus Muslims a non Muslim see hear them hold us accountable on the day of judgment that you Muslims over 7 million strong. You had 3000 plus massages 150 Plus you know full time Islamic schools you had the resources, the knowledge and the obligation to convey the message and you feel doing that. Right. So any which way we look at it check right
side by side simultaneously closing calm
Send suggestions. Now we're finishing up, Shay Jamal, tell us, you know, for us coming up also now, what do you do to stay healthy looking young? What are you eating? You know, give us some light life hacks, you know something from your spirits to help us you know, continue with that longevity
that's a lot kept us away from the Haram food or drugs and
forbidden drugs not
number one number two,
this sense of peacefulness, and tranquility of the heart and remembrance of Allah and the keeping salah and reciting the Quran, that keep the spirit alive, and they spread it
interact with the physical body, they both affect one another as far as what you eat, or eat what my wife tells me to eat, because I have diabetes.
So, yeah, I knew nothing.
Everything, I able to eat any kind of food, except of course, it forbidden once for the ethic,
not to foresee the risk of
I try not to eat as much meat, right?
This is a problem in the culture, American culture, that the consumption of religious phenomena reveals sometimes with that limits.
So I've been lots of guidance in prophetic teaching.
Some advice from
physicians who specialize in this area, but nothing really unusual.
So, other than that, and you and your left and your last, your last closing suggestions, advice, as we close up anything you want to share with us anything else? I simply say that that is the essence of the teachings of all of the prophets. It is at the core teaching that is common among all the prophets. And we will be betraying our responsibility not to offer it. Even Prophet Muhammad himself. A lot is him what Olympus alpha never laughed at. He said that if you don't convey the message, you have not fulfilled your mission. So we have to think also of us and our mission on on earth to worship Allah subhanaw taala in the broader sense of worship, which includes Dawa and like
Dr. Seville said, this is very significant. How would you face Allah subhana wa tada when somebody says he was my friend for so many years, never spoke about Islam to me. If you told me I will have and we do carry responsibility in this life. And in the hereafter May Allah help us and inspire us and help us to really present it in a way that brings people not to drive them away. I mean, honored to have you again on the program. Thank you so much for your time and Dr. Seville. Your closing words. Yeah, two quick points and then one telephone number. One point is that even though I presented some scenarios, Doctor, by the way, that some people doing there some people doing this,
actually, I want to have a lesson for myself. I have my emotions, I have my ego, right? I have my fallibilities so all of those things are applying to me and to all of us, not just any specific person, I want those people to be aware and me to be aware of that inshallah. Secondly, this is just my philosophy that any interaction, anything that we say any, you know, conversation that we have, I always want to remind myself that what would the Prophet do? So they allow the seller in that situation in that interaction, so that we'll keep on calibrating ourselves with the right intention and with the right methodology? What would the Prophet salallahu alaihe salam in their situation,
and those of our non Muslim brothers and sisters who are listening to this program, please give us a call to greenpeace.com one 800 662 Islam, and we can offer you a free copy of the Quran in English or Spanish, and contact us. If you have any questions based upon what you heard today based upon what you hear on the social media, and will be honored and blessed to interact with you. May God guide all of us here, guiding all of us, and keep on uniting our hearts and minds. So we can keep on becoming ambassadors of Islam in peace to all of humanity. And thank you both. Thank you both. I mean, thank you both. And we'll end with that and we'll end with the greeting of peace.
Jesus greeted his followers Moses in the lies and fundamentals are sent to mankind Prophet Muhammad. Peace be with you a Salaam Alaikum