The Need For Orthodoxy, With Sh. Ep. 2 Dogma Disrupted, With Imam Tom Facchine
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Is there a difference between some of the few that have even sent me an email Muhammad? The answer might be yes. But that's only simply because they live so far apart. And there were different issues that the one who lived later had to clarify that the one who lived earlier did not have to clarify. The reality is is that shake was handed to me. Okay, him and others from that era of the late seventh century, early eighth century. Its name the United Nations. Welcome back to dogma disrupted Yaqeen podcast where we look at modern ideologies and put them under the lens. Today, we have a very special guest shake ball here, Wyatt, who is the research director of Systematic Theology at
likeliness to welcome sheftall here. So not enough to learn the case. Was that going on here for having me, Victor? Are they gonna sit down with Allah? So today's episode is all about Orthodoxy. So we're gonna get right into it. What is orthodoxy? Do we need it? And why?
So those are the three different questions. I think.
If we're gonna have this chat, I think people need to know that we've spent quite a bit of time together
in a different land, well, hum did Allah and I think that this conversation that we're going to have, I'd like, I'd like it to be as loose as possible. And therefore feel free to cut me off whenever you want to cut me off. And in jumping in shallow Tana,
I'll take you back the first time I heard the word orthodox that I can remember hearing it was actually not too long after I accepted it slam.
It's not to say that it wasn't part of the vocabulary of anybody. It's just not something I used a lot. And what happened was, I told somebody that I accepted Islam. And they said, Are you nation are Orthodox, I was like, nation orthodox. I was like, I'm definitely not nation, I know what the Nation of Islam was. So this is the, you know, earlier, 90s, mid 90s, if you will, in Philadelphia, the nation of the sign was very strong in the 70s. And then their influence began to wane after that. But everybody's still anybody that was growing up in the 80s knew who the Nation of Islam was, and Philadelphia, so I knew it wasn't Nation of Islam. So I was like, I guess I'm Orthodox, but I don't
really know what that uh, I don't really know what that means when it comes to when it comes to a slam.
The term that the
Sunnis used to use for themselves with Sunni Muslims, but they were called orthodox Muslims, by the Nation of Islam, which is interesting enough, because orthodox does actually mean the straight way, the straight opinion, if you look at it from, you know, from its Greek roots, or if those means straight or upright.
doxa is, is the is an opinion. So the straight opinion basically, what do what we regard as being true and correct. That's what Orthodoxy is. So I'm gonna jump in there. So it has tucked into that concept, and idea that some opinions are right, and some opinions are wrong. Would that be accurate to say? Absolutely, yeah. Because Because there's heterodox, and there's, there's Orthodox, right? You have, yeah, yeah. So what what is the idea of religion that sort of is in the background there? That is telling us that one opinion is right, and another one might be wrong? Because there's a lot of people who would say, Well, you know, I have my religion, you have your religion, this guy over
here in this part of the world has his religion, and all of them are acceptable, and all of them are valid. What's the idea of religion that is different between those two conceptions where somebody is saying that they're all right. And somebody else is saying that no, one is right, or there is a right and there is a wrong?
Yeah, so Okay, so right, there's this underlying concept of religion, which is a little bit different than the way that we look at Deen from an Islamic perspective. Because now we are talking about one truth or hack 90 and the other things are bottom. So some things are the truth, and other things are false. And there are black and whites you know, when it comes to those things, sure. There are many things from a an Islamic standpoint that may fall into those shades of grey if you will, but there's no doubt about it that there are certain things that are hack for example, Allah azza wa jal is one, right? He is not three lots of Kulu telethon don't say three. This is this is
truth, and that's falsehood. So the religion of Islam and I think religions in general do draw lines and they say that this is correct. And this is incorrect. This is moral.
And this is immoral, right? So yes, that is one of the underlying presumptions of presumptions of anyone that will follow the deen of Islam. I think it's really interesting because it seems to indicate that there's two ideas about where religion comes from going on. Right? So you've got one idea that religion is sort of almost like the product of human effort, right. And lots of sort of anthropologists, they talk about it, like religions, they started out, you know, they have this whole evolutionary paradigm, right, where they started out, animist and worshipping multiple idols, and then eventually, they evolved into monotheistic religions, this entire sort of idea of history,
asserts that religion is the product of human effort, really, but people just are making it up the whole time.
And if that's where your idea is, then you almost have to give equal legitimacy and validity to all of them. Right? Because how do you how do you give more weight to this? People? Are these peoples are cool, they're intellection. They're,
you know, ideas of morality? And what may not be morality of what truth and falsehood is? How do you give more weight to that than that? Which is standard, right? Because it's all based on human something other it's the product of either human intellect or human experience, human reason, right?
If it's not from a lung, the Creator of the heavens and earth, and it's from human beings, then correct, and we would have to figure out some weighting system there, right. And that's why you find that they do want to give equal credibility and tolerance to everybody, and so on. And so all ideas, and that strikes me as a very recent sort of way of looking at religion or what we're trying to get at when we talk about religion. Because if you look, if you go back before the modern era, you basically have people they're not talking about this religion, that religion, you know, they're more talking about truth and falsehood, right? They're talking about like, as you said, Dean, right,
which is a very different concept than than religion, even talking about, you know, the idea of the word of infidel, which gets a bad rap for political reasons, but the idea that you are you have fidelity, right to the creator and what He sends down or you have infidelity, right, like, Can we can we actually, can we just talk about that for a second? Because, because actually, you know, the prophet Isaiah Salatu was Sadam Dino nnessee, huh. Right. And when you look at the word and see how both linguistically and the way that the scholars have talked about and see how it comes back, probably in Allah Subhana Allah knows best. The best English word for that is fidelity. Because
we're talking about being true to something, being loyal to something, right. Obviously, you know, some people say to Dina's advice, but how do you advise Allah azza wa jal? How do you advise the court and that doesn't really work? advice to the believers is,
is a product of being true to them? It's a product of the fidelity right? So the Prophet alayhi salatu salam was actually telling us the entirety of the deen is fidelity. This is which is this is what you're saying? Right? That the entirety of the deen of Islam is being true to something being true to Allah Subhana Allah being true to his book being true to the messenger anti science.
Yeah, I mean, and so intellectual history is such a fascinating thing, because a lot of times we don't realize that the language that we use to discuss a phenomenon has certain ideas and has certain values in it. Like you said, How can Balto, if we're talking about how can Botha we're talking about truth and falsehood, then already assumed in that sort of way of looking at it is that this thing comes from a divine source and that it's either going to be right, and correctness is sort of judged by fidelity to it, or you're going to go off the beaten path. And that's going to be an infidelity of sorts, versus the term religion, at least how it is used today, it gives equal, I
think it implies equal validity. We talk about world religions, right? Anybody who goes to public school, and you learn in history class, you've got, oh, here's the unit on Christianity, and here's the unit on Judaism. And here's the unit on Islam. And it's very much even playing field, the idea is that these are all sorts of different, you know, it's very much next to and involved in, in a culture, right, and we're almost automatically within the concept itself, granting validity to it, which is, or they're all equally invalid expressions of the truth, right? Yeah. Which, or Yeah, or lack thereof. It's interesting, because it all depends on who's teaching it right. So they're all
equally valid or equally invalid. Right.
So it is interesting, but I think that for us,
the concept of Orthodoxy is important because the stakes are so high.
We are talking about salvation here. We're talking about accountability in front of Allah subhanaw taala as a as a, as an end game, if you will, but also just for how you live your life and will you be happy? And how do you fill the void that many so many people find in their hearts and so there is a there's a correct way. That's the way that we view it as Muslims and I think that
I don't know if we're going to segue into this later but maybe we should just talk about this right now because this actually
it sums up the DUA that Ibrahim is made for this ummah. Right when he finished building the kava with this my I didn't even sell them. They made this die and for the OMA not been I was feeding him Rasool Amin home. Yes Do I lay him i Attica where you are living human Kitab a well, heck no, he's a kid. All right.
So, if we, if we look at this dua, he is saying, they are saying, Oh Allah, sent amongst these people that people that are around the Kaaba, a messenger from amongst them, who does what, two things? Yes, Lu recites to them the book that means that part of the MacArthur the cobra, if you will, the great
objectives of the birther and descending of the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu. Salam was to recite the book, the love, that is its actual
words and the and structure that that the prophesy son would recite that to people and that that would be preserved,
that they will be purified.
And that and that the prophesy son would teach them the book. And the Hickman. Now the Hickman has a lot of different interpretations. We use the interpretation of examine Shafi about him a lot and has on the bustling others. They said it was the Sunnah, but it's a little broader than that, according to the majority of the festooning, but that's not the point here. I think the point here is this.
That there's a difference between Tilawat some keytab,
or reciting the book, and teaching the book and the prophesy, Salam had both jobs. Right. This is this is from the greater objectives of the sending of the prophet Isaiah site to Sudan is that he teaches them both the recitation but also the meaning.
So that means that either with the prophets, Elijah was seldom taught,
okay, in terms of this is the correct interpretation of revelation because he's got to teach them the revelation itself. And then part of his job is to teach them the interpretation of Revelation. So the Prophet Isaiah is somebody who said, and his job was both, either what he taught the people was correct.
Meaning it was orthodoxy, or it was incorrect. If we say that with the prophesy son, I'm taught was incorrect. I was a biller, and it collapsed, then why would you follow the messenger idea? Salatu was Salam, if what he's teaching about the Quran is a misrepresentation of what Allah azza wa jal wanted us to understand from the quarry.
Now, that's really important. So if I could just just to track where we're going. So the idea that there is a truth and there is a falsehood, right, the things aren't equal, right? And certain assumptions about a creator and that creator wanting to guide us. Okay, that seems like the first thing. And then the second thing has to do with the text has to mean something. Okay? Right. The Koran has to mean something. And of all the possible meanings, they all can't be true, right? Some of them have to be correct. And some of them have to be incorrect, just by virtue of how language works, right? We can't have two fundamentally mutually exclusive, contradictory meanings. And both
of them be right that's nonsensical, right. So the text has to mean something. And it has to also not mean other things. Which brings us the importance of the figure of the Prophet it set out to Sudan because if the Koran was just like an empty slate, and we can just come and interpret it however we want, then what's the point of sending the Prophet Allah He set out to sit down to teach us to the Quran in the first place, could have just sent us karate straight, he could have just sent us just the tablet or the book or the Quran in the form that we have it now everybody can read it the way that they want to everybody can put whatever meaning they want onto it, they can say this
means this and this means that and so it's cutting out the station of the Prophet alayhi salatu. Salam to assume that right. So there's a lot to unpack there. Sheikh, I hope that we get a little time. I honestly hope we can spend a little bit of time on this because there's there's quite a bit to unpack. And the first thing is to take a step back and say wait a minute. And you because we're all under this category. Right now. We're still dealing with this category. What is orthodoxy at the end of the day, right? So the
The first the first thing like you said, is to recognize, or we're going to assume that those who believe in some type of orthodoxy or are willing to open up their minds to believe that there is a thing called orthodoxy, and that there is truth. And there is something that is correct,
that they believe that they were created, number one, and that this orthodoxy that they are going to follow is coming from the Creator Himself as a widget.
All right. On top of that, we cannot believe as deist believe, for example, that there's a creator, but then he kind of left everybody just to do their own thing figured out, there's no personal guide, as they would later call it in, you know, in religious terms. So we can't just believe that Allah created the heavens and earth and, you know, put some natural order in place. And then he doesn't answer do I, and he doesn't answer your prayers. Nor does he, what kind of God would that be really? Right, sorry? What What kind of God would that be? Right, right? Well, again, I mean, as I'm sure you're aware, a lot of Americans actually kind of believe that
the ones that don't believe in organized religion, right, but they're not brave enough to be atheist. I can use that terminology.
Or, obviously, they see for themselves signs that atheism doesn't particularly make sense to them. So they believe in a God but this God is not involved in, in our lives. The The reality is, is that Allah azza wa jal also addresses this in the Quran, accessible, insane. And you talk us through that. And there's man think that he would just be left Sudan and Sudan, Mohammed, and there's no objective, there's no aim. He's not going to be like a human Well, I don't have, he's not going to be commanded with anything. He's not going to be prohibited from doing other things and therefore, and therefore, not accountable for anything because you haven't been told to do anything. So I think
once we can get past this point, and we can say, wait a minute, yeah, Allah azza wa jal created us. He created us with wisdom.
There is there is in fact, a purpose for us being on this earth, and we are going to be commanded to do certain things, we're going to be prohibited from doing other things, right. Then how do we know these commands and prohibitions? We know them through revelation.
And this is, I think, takes us to the point that you were that you were at right now, which is that revelation that comes, it could come down as a as a book, I mean, we have here I have a mishap, right? It can just come down. It just plops down on Earth. And then everybody, like you said, reads it and assigns whatever meaning they feel is most appropriate for themselves. Or we can have it as it has been with all of the revelations of the past, that they have come through messengers. And those messengers are teaching the people the book. And this is explicitly to Dr. Ibrahim and Allah azza wa jal
and as he mentioned in sort of July, who led by the
Phil Amin and
shall I say, the via with Amina Rasool Amin, whom that's why they hang it he will use a kingdom while you I live on Mauna Kea, Tabatha, Hickman and cattlemen cover look if you've got a movie, so at the end of the day, ALLAH SubhanA, Allah answered the Dr. Ibrahim, and he sent amongst the unlettered a profit from amongst themselves, who recites his eye and who purifies them and who teaches them the Book and the hikma. So, the so now we get back and it kind of come full circle to this point here, which is that the prophet Isaiah is similar to Sudan, the one of the reasons that ALLAH SubhanA, Allah sent him in fact, one of the primary reasons for him being sent was to teach
the revelation to recite, to the people the revelation so that it would be preserved until Yama, PM.
And that the meanings also of the Quran, will be taught by the prophet Isaiah salatu salam, it then follows and I don't know if this is where you want to go. But it then follows that there are people who were with the prophet Isaiah signs with Sudan, mainly his companions, who then preserved those teachings as well and then pass them down. So there is that is what is correct. And anything that opposes that diametrically right, then that cannot possibly be correct. As you mentioned, though, and I think this is important.
The revelation, some revelation can be interpreted more than one way. It doesn't mean that there's not a correct interpretation. It means that there is that Allah azza wa jal is giving us leeway
in understanding certain
i et or for that matter hadith of the prophet Isaiah Salatu was Salam such that a person who misunderstands it is not liable is not sinful in front of Allah subhanaw taala. So a quick example and you're probably more familiar with the wording of this example than I am, because it's more of a fifth thing than it is a theological thing. But the famous example when the prophet Isaiah Salatu was Salam told somebody companions don't pray until you get to such and such a place, some of them undisturbed from that nursery, and he lets go really quickly so we can get there and pray a lot to Lhasa. And some of them understood No, even if salata Lhasa goes out. We're not praying until we get
to that place.
This the latter was not what the prophesy centum intended. However, the prophesy Salam did not
criticize them for understanding that because it is very possible. Right? It is a plausible understanding of the statement of the prophet Isaiah Salatu was sitting. Right. So they're not blameworthy. That but however, that still isn't with the Prophet. It is something that was intended as was made clear later. So anyway, I think that there are as again, you know, some revelation gives leeway for various understandings, and some does not.
So one of the one of the doubts that a lot of people voiced to me, they say, Well, if the companions were right there with the Prophet alayhi salatu salam, and they had the opportunity to ask over the course of 23 years, how come there are different interpretations? Why hasn't it all been settled? Why is there such room for differences of opinion? Shouldn't it all be just revelation?
No, I don't I don't, I don't think so. Um, I think that what happened at the time of the prophet Isaiah is similar to Sam. So first of all, there's a lot of Islam that nobody differs about, or historically they have been different about. Hence, across the board, the Quran, the Sunnah of the Prophet, Isaiah Salatu was Sudan, and each man, which is unanimous consensus of the scholars of any particular era,
are all considered to be sources in Islam, part of where we can derive rulings from both theological and
practical, if you will. So.
So the major issues of Islam would differs about them, like who differs that we're supposed to pray five times a day, who differs that Allah azza wa jal exists, who difference that there's a hereafter and that that people will be held accountable and that there's gentleman that is now in paradise and a Hellfire who differs that you know,
that wealthy Muslims have to pay the cat, okay? They may differ about the exact times of those five daily prayers, they may differ about percentages, if you will, when it comes to his account. They may or inheritance for that matter, or they may differ about when Ramadan starts and when it's over. But don't they don't differ about the fact that we have to face the month of Ramadan like, so the major issues of his name, which which we will call Usool. Right? Fund foundations or fundamentals, this is not something that historically has been different over.
And also the profit it is to like to sit in and what not, what's cool with that as in the hedge, but the hadith of Allah about the Messiah, or the Allahu Chyna and who, who said that the Prophet sallahu wa salam
gave us an IT management he was saying some words, and it was as if he was bidding us farewell. And so we asked him to advise us and he said, and the prophet Isaiah said it was sent and said, Whoever from amongst you all you need to campaigns themselves, whoever follows you all lives Yanni has had some life left in them and lives some decades, well, is going to see some great difference because they are often effing with Elon
then he gave them the what should they do when they see this different? Right? And that's important because he said it can be so naive. It can be so nutty, he says so hold fast adhere to my sunnah. But he did not stop there and there's a reason he said was so natural whole of our life he didn't make the human body and hold fast to the Sunnah of the rightly guided Khalifa those who come after me namely Abu Bakar Omar was meant to be alongside No
I do I let you have it. No, I just the only bite down on this with your molars.
I'm going to ask you shake. What do you think we should understand from the fact that the problems like some didn't just say hold on to my sunnah.
But he also said to hold on to the Sunnah of the qualifier it being what do you get from that? I don't want to put you on the spot. But I think it's important because this is a
is an important discussion. And again, we're back in the library in Medina. So let's have that conversation. Yeah, I mean, I think two major things. One is the primacy of the interpretations of the companions, and especially the major companions that they understood in the most holistic and the most exhaustive way, the intent behind the revelation how to apply its universals to particulars. And so to take notice that there were going to be, however, three things that were going to come down the pipeline that nobody ever dealt with before. And yet their understanding of the deen was such, you know, they had been trained in a way by the Prophet alayhi salatu salam, that
their extension of what they knew of revelation to unprecedented matters was going to be the best and closest to the truth.
So that is two different things. Okay. Because you, you said first, and then I didn't hear so that was a second part. So yeah, let's separate those because I, this is exactly the point that I want to get across. Number one, the prophesy Salam is giving us a clear indication of the superiority of their understanding. That is the co founder, it Dean, and then obviously, those who are closest to them in virtue and understanding that their understanding of the revelation more than anybody else, but But the second thing is key. The second thing is key. And that is that there are going to be things that happen after the time of the prophet Isaiah Salatu was set and that won't be solved
directly through Revelation, it will have to be solved through the application of Revelation, right, through the application of those universals and particulars, as you mentioned. So it's important because during the lifetime of the Prophet, it has a lot to say, and nobody has to do HD head. Alright.
Well, let me let me take that let me take that back. There was St. headband, during the time there was a correction
there, there might have been HD head but then it was corrected. Right. That's what I was gonna say. Any HD hand that was incorrect, would have been corrected 90 by the prophet idea. So it was snapped or directly by Allah subhanaw taala through revelation, but then, after the time of the prophet Isaiah has a lot to say, and he's letting us know, look, there gonna be things that happen and they have to be they have to be addressed. There is a correct way to do that.
Look at the way that these that the whole offense of what she did and my Deen mean by the look at Oh, come after me look at the way that they apply revelation. Again, this is orthodoxy. Right? We're told that there is a correct way to understand the Quran. There is a correct way to understand the Sunnah of the Prophet Isaiah Salatu was saying, to get back to your other question, which is, well, why wasn't everything solved? The reality is is again, as you mentioned, the prophesy son lived how many years?
I mean, as a prophet and messenger. Yeah, we're talking 23 years.
And we're going on now 1400 40 years, 44 years after the agent of the prophet Isaiah. So I was saying, Is it conceivable that everything that was going to happen throughout time, right, was going to happen at the time of the prophet Isaiah Salatu was Sudan and that everything would be meted out, no, but we have the principles, we have the tools that are necessary to address incorrect things throughout time and place. And that's really important, I think, for people to keep in mind because sometimes people approach these issues with unrealistic expectations, right? So so to expect sort of like this very minut detail, the Quran and the Sunnah, solving every single thing, Yanni voodoo and
right, like the in the most specific and explicit way. Right. That's an unrealistic expectation, as you just said, like there was only a certain amount of time that the crime was being sent down. It was addressing things that were specific, but it was also giving the general principles behind those things, giving us the tools so that we could extend the application of the city indefinitely, no matter what comes down the pipeline, the exam, you know, and also, I mean, it shows just as there's, there's a difference there. Right. And I'm, you know, you could probably correct me and remember even better, but I believe Abdullah bin Amara, or the other Han, Houma, you know, was hesitant,
right to, to deal with certain things, after the death of the Prophet alayhi salatu salam, because he realized the gravity and the significance of the correction of revelation being cut off.
And so there's an interesting sort of thing where it's like, we have this sweet spot. I think, in Islam, it's like that there is, you know, saying that everything has been completely revealed in explicit granular detail that there's no need for interpretation whatsoever. That's false. That's one extreme and then the other extreme is also true. See me the other extreme is also false that the text just means whatever I want it to mean.
There's multiple interpretations and they're all they're all equally valid.
So do things I want to get to and maybe if you have an interjection, then we can deal with that first, but I want to get to what as the Prophet, it said, some passes away. Okay, and we've got the air of the companions, and it's Abilene, and then those after them, what is the criteria that makes an HD hat valid? What's the criteria that makes an interpretation? Valid? I think that's a really, really important thing to explore. Okay. Alhamdulillah. So I think that this even have time to do this particular topic. Justice.
I would actually recommend that people go back there is I think we have
at Yaqeen Institute, we have a few pieces that that address this particular topic, not exhaustively, but enough to give a person a decent overview. The first was written written by Dr. Nazir Han,
on where do we draw the line? I think it is. I think that's the name of the art where do we draw the line permissible, differing and those types of things? I don't know the exact title offhand, maybe you can, maybe you can inform the audience, and also that the henchman had his piece on in defense of faith.
So, which is a dealing with the Islamic apologetics?
I think that both of these pieces are well written well thought out.
It does not. And I think people have to also
be mature and their and their understanding to say, just because you recommend reading something does not mean that you record that you agree with every single point in a piece, right. But nonetheless, I think overall, both pieces have very good introductions to the subject that they are that they are bringing up, which is what does constitute valid different now, I will I will summarize as best as I can.
This particular point, which is
what error are we talking about? Right? Because where the Sahaba may have different than we can almost guarantee
that that was permissible, differing.
Almost, and that doesn't mean that that's not to say that there were certain things that that maybe once a hobby did that you will find that the rest of the Sahaba were not in line with right and so that that way, you would say well, almost all of this Havoc came against them.
So for example, the Abu Hurayrah the law of China annual making wudu you know, past the the elbow, extending it up the arm, you know past the ankle, extending it up the the the leg, none of the other Sahaba to my knowledge are the longtime and whom did that or proved of that, right. And there were certain other things that some of the you know, at I had this habit will say Yanni, that is that individual Sahaba may have done that the other Sahaba did not agree with but in general, if you find this harbor
disagreement, not even disagreement differing different opinions on something, right? That then you can then then you can say that mashallah that falls into the scope of permissible different and they didn't fight each other because of that, almost all the low tide and when he would go down and salute, he would go down on his knees. It'd be Mr. oodle the low tide and hope some of the other companions when they will go down, it's reported that they will go down on their hands first and then in ease. They weren't fighting each other over this, right. Even though the interesting part about that is they did pray behind the prophet Isaiah. So like,
so did they see the prophet Isaiah salatu salam zoo, both where there's certain circumstances where the prophesy so they both what does he mean, don't go into sujood? Like a camel. Does that mean that the you know, there's a story. Funny story about that, because when I was a new Muslim, and I first read that hadith, first thing I did was jump on on YouTube and try to look up how a camel like how camel sit down. And then I watched it and then like, well, that doesn't help because there's ambiguity it's got more sort of joints than we do. Right? You can't tell if it's resembling a human being going down their knees first or going down their hands first, it's not possible to tell. Well,
the interesting thing is that some of the some of the LMS it has nothing to do with the hands and knees. It means that the noise that the camels make when they go out into a suit that the whole point is again, right we're looking at a wide spectrum of opinions. So in general, in general, it is not permissible.
to differ in school, it is not. Now we're going to go is gonna be my next question because a lot of folks and even the articles, I scanned all the articles that we haven't yet seen on these issues before, you know, making up this, our, our program for today, a lot of them give 50 examples. All right, everybody. Well, I should say that disagreements and Feck are more understood. Okay, this will have a disagree in nakida. About anything, whether a minor issue or a major issue. And what are the implications of that? Of course, yes, the Sahaba did disagree about
some, actually the issues but I think,
I think to go so broad and say that it's permissible to different IP, then
that may open up a different discussion. So
let's take it back. Let's go back for a second. And let's just take our time to this person for a second if you don't mind. So we the dean, you can largely break it down into me yet, right? And I'm gonna yet if you will. So, based on hover and color, because this at the end of the day, Allah azza wa jal is informing us of certain things that we're supposed to believe in, or Revelation because it's not just the lies, but also through the prophet Isaiah Salatu was Salam, sometimes the Prophet it has a lot to say informs us of things, our obligation is to, is to believe in those things. Perfect. There are other things that that we are required to do, or not to do, these are the comedy
act, right? practical things, pray five times a day,
be good to your parents.
Gives a cat these type of things. Okay. So
the soul of the dean,
are those larger issues that all of the early Muslims, the Sahaba, or the longtime home, and then the tabbing, after them, that they all agreed on these particular issues? All right, whether they're from the first category or the second category, so whether it is for example, that you have to believe that Allah azza wa jal hears you.
Okay. So belief,
and it is a man, but like, you have no other way of verifying that other than your iman.
Meaning that you have textual evidence to back this up. Okay.
So Hamdulillah we believe that all of the early Muslims believe that we have plenty of narrations that back that up from the Sahaba or the longtime and on themselves. And then we can see a clear chain to win the IP that was actually written down at a later time, formulaically if that's a real word, you can help me out, but but to actually, you know, codify the the aikido which, which obviously, did not happen during the time and it's a habit all the time, no, no one was writing down, we believe in a law on the last day and these type of things like the class, this is in the Quran, and the Prophet it is somebody that was slammed swept in it. So all right, so these are
considered to be well sold.
Because all of them believe that there's unanimous agreement amongst them. Likewise, the that everyone who has the ability has to make hatch.
This is an assault even though what this is not a belief, it is, it is a practice, you go you make hij the practices of Islam are obviously rooted in belief, you believe that it's an obligation and so, therefore, you do it, all right. So, these are at the end of the day considered to be equal. So, there are other things that are forward and some of them may be based on hover, that is aligns without informing us of something. And there being a difference of opinion about what exactly this means. So for example, color in the homeowner will become your main dilemma trouble, right? Now, they are going to be screened from the Lord on that day. Okay, so, some of the early self understood
from that, that the kuffaar When I see Allah subhana, Allah or Younkin, others understood no there. There are other texts that indicate that they will see him but it won't be referred to
as the seeing of the believers. And when the believers see Allah subhana who were to Anna, right, which is, which is a
which is the greatest blessing of the people agenda, in fact, and the prophets, Elijah was salam used to make the DUA that along with any Ahsoka lead, that's another you know, what was Shoka in any car at all, I asked you for the delight of seeing your face. And, you know, that desire, that longing to meet you, right. So,
again, okay, this is another topic, the believers seeing the loss of habitat. This is
mouj Max, I think this is an issue of h max consensus amongst the Sahaba, or the low Teina. And those who came after them. Now somebody might say, Yeah, but you know, right at the time of the it's bad to have it in you have the mark Tesla, right? Who come and they say, No, nobody will see Allah on the Day of Judgment. Len, tiny lenders have actually, as they call it, right? That you will never see you'll never see me. Okay, so that means that even in the Hereafter, the believers don't see a loss of habitat. Well, now there are certain sects of Islam. But that's considered to be against orthodoxy, because they were preceded by Hmm. They were preceded by the consensus of the scholars of
Islam, that this is what this particular position is.
If you want to unpack that we can we can go further. It's, it's, it's up to you. It's pretty good. Well, you mentioned something that I actually wanted to segue towards when you mentioned the TED when you mentioned the, the historical aspect of the codification of Africa at the time of the Sahaba, it was not written down and then at a certain point, it became written down.
historicization is a really, really important thing to understand, because a lot of Western scholarship is based on a lot of hermeneutics, the hermeneutic tradition, when it comes to interacting with with texts, the historical critical method also brought to us by you know, higher criticism and from the Western Academy. It places an enormous emphasis on the historicity right, or the historical process. Now, how much of our Arpita as Muslims is a product of history? Okay, how much of it is original to exactly as the set of had it and exactly as the prophesy said, I'm taught, and how much of it is a later interpretation? Whether it was the time of of Imam Ahmed and Al
Bukhari or later on? Could you speak to that a little bit?
Yes, I mean, inshallah we can we can talk about it, I don't want to be to answer your question right away, how much of it? That's a difficult like, I've never done like, a survey to kind of look at percentages, like, for example, this particular book, but let's take it back. How do we know? I mean, maybe that's even a more
immediate question like, how do we know what they believed? Yes. Right. Because the is the poor and telling you that Abu Bakar believes this, or Omar believes that is the Quran telling you what the tambien you believe?
No, it's telling us what we're supposed to believe. And some of this stuff is, is very obvious, is it been our best, or the a lot of time to implement, you know, when he talked about the Tafseer of the Quran, and some of it is known, beloved to Allah, at the end of the day, you understand the Arabic language, it's so clear, doesn't really need interpretation. And in fact, anybody knows Arabic is want to understand it this way, period, that there's another part of Tafseer lay yourself, I don't hear any be generally Oh, come on call us or the law of China and that there's another part that nobody is excused for not knowing. Right? Yeah. Not just because it's from Lulu to Allah. But
because the interpretation of these particular ayat had been made clear by the prophet Isaiah select the same all of the Muslims, I believe this and so there's only one way to understand those, those things are pretty, pretty clear.
Now, what happened over time, is that there were those who departed from the understanding of the Sahaba, or the longtime enemy, and that happened very early, by the way.
It happened with at the time of admiralty law in China and hold with the hardage themselves. So this was the first set in Islam. And they separated themselves and they camped in a place called how to rock
and the rock, and even I best about the Allahu Tana annulment, he actually requested from it, while the Allahu and to go and have a debate with them, try to talk them, you know, insists, try to convince them that the path that they're following is not the correct path. Right. And to try to convince them, you know, through Islam, that what they're doing is incorrect and that they're going to harm themselves and harm the Muslims because there's going through this is evidently going to leave or imminently going to lead to a civil war because
this was already on the table. And this is why and I best requested from it. Let me go talk to them first before there's a war.
This is important, I think because it'll take us into this just concept of the key to being without winning or written down.
Even our bass goes to the cordage
and immediately, and he notices that these are people who are deaf
worshipers of Allah Subhana Allah
and they kind of take to distancing themselves from worldly things. And the first comment that they make is look at this beautiful, you know, look at this garment to everyone, right? Like, you know, aren't you? Why are you basically why are you so worldly? Because you look so nice. You know, maybe you have buttons. I don't know, like Gucci. I call them bougie bougie that's it.
You know, you basically you coming down into the hood from the suburbs, you know? So what's this? So we're gonna have this, he, he didn't let that slide. He said, Indeed, the Prophet alayhi salatu salam used to we're better than this. Right away. He's calling them out. He's saying look, ya'll don't really understand this land.
You're commenting on something that doesn't deserve to be commented on? And if the prophet I didn't select was saying we're better than this, then then then then what am I doing particularly wrong? He says okay, what's the issue anyway? Let's talk what are your issues? Right? They they had a problem with the heckum Aim and he between the representing idea of the low tide and who and why we have the logo and and how can you get these two people ever Musa Ashanti and I would have been allows How can you get them to get involved in an affair and in hook more lol Illa Allah, that's my delete. I deleted from the Quran. And it'll hook more learning that the hokum the rolling, the decision is
only for law, how can you bring to other people to make decisions? Because it should only be for Allah. That's our understanding of the Quran, like, like you talked about before, and I hope we can. I hope you'll be patient enough to kind of let let let's talk through this. Right. So what happens as a result? You get, they mentioned the other two issues that they had. So when I best Okay, that's it. That's, that's what I got. Okay, so let's go back to your first point about the heckum. Didn't the law say? If the man and a woman and a woman a man and his wife, if they get to the point where they are fear that they're going to divorce when it shifts from shikaka benei Hema fabae through
HECM. And min Lee? Well, heck am I mad? Yeah. And you read us law, hey, you offered to level been on loss if you fear that there's going to be a split between them. Then send a HECM write an arbiter, somebody who's going to make a decision from his side and arbiter from her side. If they want to sly Allah is gonna bring harmony between them if they want to Slack.
So he says that the nicey that Allah said to send a hecka in a truck, Milena that's true. But what this is talking about is something that contradicts what Allah azza wa jal has already decided. And this is not the case here. So the point here, the other thing that he mentioned, that I forgot to mention here that I think is really important, it ties back into what you mentioned earlier, as an explanation of the prophesies. What I'm saying follow my son in the Sunnah of the right guy, they call it that.
Is that even our best sir, I just I am coming to you. From us having the BIA salatu salam Harvey rasool Allah is why I'm coming to you from the companions of Allah's Messenger. Well, as a fee coming home, I had
noticed that he is not one of them. amongst you, this is the cause of your deviation is not that you've left the book of Allah and totality. No, it's that you've left the understanding of the companions of the messenger of allah sallallahu Sallam of the revelation now to tie that in, because everything happened for a reason, including when we look at tween or
the writing down of the mazahub bill for Kia, and all of that, all of that came about for a reason. So so now you have this early sect in Islam, the SEC that came after them in terms of chronological order, where the Shia, right, which was largely a political movement at the time, and not, particularly theologically.
They didn't have many theological grounds by which they differ with Andersen. Then it was more political. After them came the Moto Jia
who basically divorced faith in and actions are Amen. And Ahmed okay. They were the polar opposites of the corage. In fact, it is clear that they were in fact a their development came as a response to the cordage the Hawaiians now are
excommunicating people making tech fear declaring them to be too far because of them committing major sins. How do we how do we solve
have that issue? Well we say major sins are not a part of IE men. Therefore, or or even actions themselves are not a part of image. Therefore if somebody does not do the full ride or they do whatever they do from sins, it doesn't. It doesn't affect the hustle of their email, they'll still be inside the folder the slam
is happening but all away like emo loads and others from mostly the early scholars of his thing he said Hollington Moto G, I had to saw them and Cody him in Antarctica. Salatu was the character well had Ramadan. Right.
The only Tanaka that he could couldn't do in the who, in whom I mean, their statement went so far that they say whoever leaves off salon and Zakat and hygiene and on the mind that that person is still that person is still a movement. What he meant by movement here was not to distinguish between men and Muslim No, he meant that they still say that this person is inside the fold of Islam. Now, granted, stay with me amongst the self amongst the Southern,
they disagreed about Hajj. And a majority of them held that if a person leaves off Hajj,
not that they are denying its obligation, but they just don't they just don't do it, that they're sinful. Some of them held it that that that person was looking for again, this is a difference of opinion most of seller and this is in fact any after the and it's it has theological roots to it. Because we're talking about a person's Eman or not that you pray over this person when they die or not. Right because Okay, same thing with Ramadan.
the fasting of Ramadan, the same thing was a camp, when it came when it when it came to, to
sunlight, it was different. Because the majority of the self held occluding. The Sahaba themselves held that a person who leaves off select even if they even if they don't deny it to obligation but they just lazy or whatever, that that person is not a Muslim, that that person is not a Muslim. However, there were from Moses Allah, including any Amazonian from the early Tabby and the great scholars of Stan Imam Malik Muhammad Allah to add it from what I remember that they did not hold them to be Kuffar
by simply leaving off the salon,
however, here's the issue. Somebody leaves off all of them.
Then that person was considered to be a Kaffir amongst the Senate, and, and they said that it was the statement of the Moto Jia to keep that person aside the folk slang
okay, how do we know this stuff? Where does this stuff come from? Well, you did start getting from the second century hydrati. Right, the middle to the late second century, those who started penning down their arcade. Okay.
There's a big difference of opinion whether a fickle Akbar is really Imam Abu Hanifa is writing or not. Allah Subhana Allah knows best. I mean, that would be a longer discussion, but that would be one of the earlier works of a lack either. And then, you know, you have treaties that were specifically written on it either by him any memorable Hardy before him and he met I met before him some of the students of Imam Shafi and others and He then began to write down small treaties on on al Qaeda and some of them got a little longer. But what we do have and I think this is important, because this is not widely available in the English language, which is cooked up a lackey that
that is, those theological works that have a snad
right, so we're talking one of the earlier ones for example, a sunnah little holla Okay, which is extensive, we're talking a *tier little jewelry color from what I remember that at 311 After the heat but he's narrating with a snag Yanni back to the tabby in what they said and he's you know, you're not talking about you know, between him in the in the tabby and sometimes a three three narrators for and with the science of Hadith, you can verify all of that and a lot of it already has been done the work is done, alleged already in Sharia, right which, which is one of the major theological works he was he was Shafi but he narrates with his net, the MISA or the distinguishing
characteristic of his particular work on it that I love is that he does offer some commentary even on the statements of of the self that he's going back to you have an event I live in Bogota, you have Charlotte St. Claude and the Sunnah well Jamal, Elana carry all of these are narrating with a snack. And then even when you look at the the books that were written specifically as
theological tracks I mean Subhanallah Hardy Rahim Allah Allah, His was major because he's offering his own interpretation, but he's also bringing you Sani right back to the self and as you know Buhari has done that yet in his in his sahih, which means that between him and the prophet Isaiah, so I have to say I'm only three people means him to the Sahaba only two people, you know, so McCarty, Yanni, also, you know, his books are really important in this matter.
I could go on and on on this particular topic.
But just to say that we have these works,
recorded, they are there, well humbly that I'm not going to turn the camera on and show you like the section in library, my salary that deals with this particular thing. But I'm not going to well humbly let on this particular topic. I'm not gonna be shocked by by anybody that comes and says anything historical or that this athlete is made up? Right, well, I think it's important to note time, that
app either and I can say developed over time. Yes, that may be a stretch, but let's just say that because issues arose over time that did not exist earlier than the response of Allah sunnah. So those things may look like new IP either. Yes, but But it's not really new. It's more of a an extended articulation
of a previous issue, if you will, like can I give you an example what I'm doing Yeah, alright, so the example that comes to mind I'll top my head is
it's it's kind of funny even though it shouldn't be. But this debate between them I didn't even ever do it
because it didn't even do I was represented Mr. Tesla and even Achmed was holding firm that the Qalam of Allah Subhana Allah is not created Okay. All right. And even then be glad and others from us the more it says here but he was the one representing them they were they were the ones saying that the speech of Allah in the Quran is created
so Okay, so to get the bait day one
you may have asked my says to him, you haven't let me do it. This statement that you're making that the book of Allah
speech of Allah is created
is it from the Dean or it's not from the Dean
so I've been able to do I said it's from the Dean's from his lab.
So he says hey the dean and he's the one that you're talking about this this Dean I didn't know who also salida Salah Abu Bakr Omar worth it um let me I know that this thing is all about that the prophesy Salam know about it notice the
Abu Bakr Omar smell it or they didn't know about it. And he said by Lattimore, Yanni who you may of course they know. He said, No, who have you heard me? Where's it in this speech?
Even though I was in this, Hey, how you gonna respond to that? So he said, Okay, give me another chance. This is what he said. He says Email Ackman says, sure, take another chance. He said they didn't know
this is recorded by their to me and others. By the way. It's not this is not a made up story. Like it's right there. They tell me what happened.
He said not he didn't know. So I said, Wait a minute. He said, Dino, let me Yeah. lemahieu Rasulullah sallallahu wasallam. Hola. Hola. Feldman. Badie. What did to 21? And
being that the processor itself didn't know no qualified or why she didn't they didn't know. And you come in and teach us this the
front cover? couldn't say anything.
said okay, came back the next day.
So don't give me give me another chance that he may lie. So let me start now. He said this statement that you make, hmm. That the speech of Allah is not muck look, it's not created. He said is this Do you notice this indeed. Now I said this is deep. He said, This thing that you're talking about? The prophets, Elijah was salam, the qualifier after him that they know what they didn't know.
You know, I said, or they knew, he said, where's it in a speech? He said, Let's go to the script.
You all be quiet will be quiet. We don't have to say that the Quran is not mclucas not created. We don't have to say that. Because it's sufficient. That we know that the speech of Allah subhanaw taala is one of his Ceefax is one of his attributes. And he says he has the word L is not created, and therefore, his attributes are not created. That's sufficient for us. We don't have to say that, but we're saying it because you're saying and I think that this is indicative
have many other aspects that have developed over time in the AQI, the understanding that it was a response to something else that was happening at a at a set time. So that response, like, like I said, is an extended articulation of principles that already exist in the athlete. So it's not new in that sense. But it is it is a different articulation along those best. I mean, I think that's really well, evidenced, that's an extremely important point, because you've got oriental scholars that are going to say that everything in the IP that is just a product of history, even the idea of Allah came from a lat and all this nonsense, this is just a word, you know, coming from the Syriac
this, that the other, that everything is a product of history. And obviously, this is a whole worldview, this is a whole aqidah that there is no like philosophical naturalism, that everything has to be produced in this cone in this dunya, that it can't come from outside of it. And that's one extreme, but then we have to be careful not to be baited into saying that well, okay. Everything that and again, I agree with you. I don't necessarily like the word development, because development implies improvement, I think. And it's not it's not so much improvement as it is clarification and extension application.
That yes, there are differences of somebody's going to say, is there a difference between some of the key that have even sent me an email Muhammad?
The answer might be yes. But that's only simply because they lived so far apart. And there were different issues that the one who lived later had to clarify that the one who lived earlier did not have to clarify. Right. So I don't think that we shouldn't have that we should necessarily shy away from that fact. I also also and I'll add to this at the,
at the risk of
perhaps offending some some people but the reality is, is that shake was Sam and Tamia, no claim and others from that era of, of the late seventh century, early eighth century. Islam, they're not even
intended today. They're even OCMA its proximity to the expats heavy into the taboo and even was just different. I mean, you can't you can't, you can't compare it's, it's a comparison of apples and oranges only because of the timeframe. Right, like you said, so after you met, I mean, you've got a huge philosophical movement, you know, that enters into Islam and attributes itself to Islam, Islamic philosophy and all of this type of stuff. And I'm using that term loosely, Islamic philosophy, but like you said, that these are these are contentions that that imitate me is going to deal with that Imam I did not have to, to address and so even the language is going to be different,
right? But again, what I'm saying is you can't
you can't compare these these, these early giants to anybody that came after them. And it's not to say ultimately what they station is what a loss Bannatyne but I'm saying, when we look at the tradition of Islam, and we You can't compare the times of Imam Shafi Rahim, Allah or Malik before him, email Achmed coming after him, you don't you can't compare that with with something that happened 500 600 years later. Excellent. There's one other thing that I want to address specifically with the the whole historical dimension, because the the other sort of big Shubha are the big doubt that's introduced into how much can we trust the athlete, especially the works of the scholars,
especially as we get further and further away from that sort of anchor of the time of the setup and the companions? Right? There's a doubt that well, the most of the people who are writing and who developed the either the hotkey that or any field felt, see it or whatever, they are men, they have a certain positionality they have power, they have privilege in society, they have their own cultural baggage and their cultural assumptions steeped in patriarchy, and that this
unfairly colored their opinions and their perspective when it came to clarifying later issues is usually applies to FIFA not so much either. But I think it's a really important thing to address because it's a huge doubt that I think a lot of people suffer from today. How would you respond to that?
So I do think this is more of a fixed thing than an IP to thing.
But I can see how how people may even use that
argument, if you will, to apply to some theological discussions, but
I just I don't know how.
I don't know how real that argument actually is.
For several reasons. And I would say, what, what exactly are we comparing it to? Like, what are we comparing
environmental circumstances or socio economic or, you know, their, whatever era they were living in, what are we comparing it to? So are we comparing it to right now? Like, is this is this the gold standard? You know, more women involved in a public sphere?
More women involved in whatever?
Like, I think it's the issue. I think they are I think that they're the saying that history progresses, there's a sort of belief and progress, historical progress that's at play there, that that that that that itself needs to be challenged. Why is today but yesterday who said like, where exactly is that coming? In fact, in fact, if we look at it strictly from an Islamic perspective, the prophet Isaiah select was sitting in says, Let he's a men right, in one of the vital, that's why women Oh, come on call and abuse a lot. It was an old shop woman. And I think there's no time that comes except that it's worse than the time that comes, like, in other words, from an Islamic
perspective, things are not exactly getting better. You know, again, I mean, I think I think, I think the issue is, if you look at it holistically, and maybe not okay, maybe technology has made certain aspects of our lives lives easier. But is that necessarily better? I mean, I think a lot of that needs to be challenged. But let's just say that that's not the assumption. I think that if we look back from the time of the prophet Isaiah, so as it was said to him himself,
were women just ignored? I don't see that. I don't see that in any part of our scholarship. I'm saying it from the time of the province at some point, I just don't see that being the case. I shuffled the local time there and has largely touted as one of the greatest scholars of Islam, female or male, like compared to anybody. The prophet Isaiah select to Sudan used to seek counsel from his wives and certain matters. And this is something that the rest of the you can see it I mean, if you if you go back, and you take some time to look at number one, you just read through a hadith of the prophet Isaiah. So I was saying, let's see what kind of engagement women had in
Yeah, it was less in terms of in a public sphere than what we have right now. That doesn't mean that they were less involved, maybe not as publicly so are influential, I think influence to I think there's an assumption that public participation automatically equates to influence. And I don't see also, which is also a misnomer. Exactly. Yes. Yeah.
And so it's funny because I was just looking at this book the other day, how to lead without, without power, right? Or how to lead when you're not in charge or something like how to lead when you don't have a position, I forget exactly the name of the book. But the point is, you can be influential without being being known even, right? Yes. In fact, I might protect you and make you more influential than if you're the face of something. And you're the, you know, the, all the rotten tomatoes and eggs get thrown at you when things go wrong. I'm gonna assume this from your Italian side and kind of knowing
I can't, I can't, I can't hide it.
No, so So it's true. So I'm but I just I want to I want to look at how this plays out with with the, you know, with women and claims of patriarchy and these type of things like that. I'm trying to figure out what men are they talking about that lived in this vacuum? Where women were not a part of society, like these men who did not have fathers? Excuse me, they didn't have mothers, right? They were just kind of boring somehow. Whatever. they hatched, maybe, I don't know. But they had mothers, they had sisters. They had daughters that they had to marry off. And they they're looking for, you know, I mean, look at how many times you look through the books of fiction, they talk about what is
compatibility? Yes. Right. And so laying out the suit, because they want to make sure that the person is marrying their daughter as somebody that's going to actually take care of them, like they cared about that they're willing to look like this is not I just what I'm reading from from the books is not that I'm not reading, you know, from men, and I'm not saying it doesn't exist at all. I'm not saying you can't go cherry pick things that you want to pick from here and there. That is just like, that's kind of weird. But, but I'm saying overall, if we look at scholarship, I think that that claim has to be justified and I don't think it can be justified because I just don't see
where these where these men are existing without their own wives actually influencing them in the way they the way that they view things. Yeah, that's true. It assumes a certain definition.
Should have power and subjectivity forming, right? The assumption is that somebody or any person is bound to act in the interests of their identity group. And that if they hold power, then they're certainly going to apply that power in order to bring benefits and privilege to their identity group to the exclusion of different identity groups. And that's just not, first of all, it's not theoretically true, necessarily, necessarily. And second of all, I mean, if you look at who we're talking about, specifically, like we're talking about the origin, that we're talking about people who the majority of whom, you know, fear Allah subhanaw, taala, more than you and I fear of loss of
human data, that are, you know, are kept up at night, at the possibility that they did someone unjustly, right, if there's any type of human being in human history, that is not going to simply be led by their in group interest, or their gender identity, you know, this sort of thing that's going to be able to transcend that. It's the ultimate. It's the scholars, you know, and you know, we're not talking about the phony scholars, we're not talking about, you know, I can go find some, you know, far out quotes here and there and cherry pick, you know, just like you could if you really wanted to, but we're talking about the mainstream authorities that everybody recognizes from century
to century, if there's anybody who transcended their own narrow interests, it was this group of people. Does that go? Okay, man, I think that's well stated. And I think that
it is very important, and I think it's an objective we talked about as research as researchers.
It's important to reestablish the,
this this group, this body of human beings known as scholars of Islam, particularly the ones that have passed, as you mentioned, but even today, I mean, Hamdulillah, we still have in this ummah, and those whom are clear, you cannot,
you know, you cannot definitively say that they are only ever last time because Allah azza wa jal truly knows best, but from our perception, and he would say, subhanAllah, that person appears to be very close to Allah subhana wa, tada. And, as you mentioned, able to transcend at least many of their,
their own biases, and and able to transcend what may be in their own self interest. Right.
But But again, I think that this is, I think that there has been a systematic
effort to, to cause distrust amongst the real scholars of a span. Because then again, orthodoxy goes out the window. And now anybody's opinion, you know, can be valid, and there can be multiple truths in my truth versus your truth, and nobody's truth is more valid than the other ones. And then, you know, you can kind of just do what you want, like if you, if you remove the scholars, as the prophet Isaiah saw that was said, so and then none of that, what if that's what NBN, right, the scholars are the inheritors of the prophets, they are the ones that again, they are the ones that put the time into study,
and to learn what is Orthodox, right, because they had to be passed down through a chain, Mr. Habit all the long time and who learn from the Prophet sallahu wa salam, it's heavy to learn from the Sahaba, and so on and so forth. down until today, there is a correct way to understand this lamb, there's a correct way to understand the texts in general, like we say there's some black and white, some gray in between.
But there definitely is black and white. So with that being said, if a person can eliminate the credibility of this, this body, then every anything is fair game, fair game, and then and then how it comes in and no person is fine was the designers.
We've got nine minutes left, there's one last topic I really want to touch on, and that is Yaqeen Institute and how we check content for orthodoxy. So right now, what do we do to ensure that Yaqeen content, whether it's papers or otherwise, adheres to Islamic orthodoxy? Oh, Allahu Akbar.
big topic. But basically, when we talking about how does how do we ensure that the that the papers that the research that goes out,
adheres to Orthodoxy, there are a couple of people, I'm one of them,
who actually does what we term internally an orthodox check for all of the research that comes through so as I'm sure you're well aware, a paper goes through several phases. Research goes through several phases if someone wants to publish something with your teen Institute.
I'll skip the beginning phases but basically, once it is actually written and complete, then it has to go through a peer review process. We try to do that.
Before we do an orthodoxy check, so it'll go through peer review. Some some things will be corrected and that peer review process and
After that, they say that academically it sound or at least it seems to be sound, it's ready to move on to this, this final check, which is known as the orthodoxy check. We do have internal documents that basically create an algorithm for what orthodoxy looks like what's accepted and what's not accepted. Many, some of this is what we just talked about. Now. For example, if something is clearly against the edge math or the consensus of the early scholars, then we're going to it's going to be rejected, because you're bringing something novel into Assam. And that is not something that we can put out to the public. Now, the interesting thing about that is, from an academic perspective, this
is totally fine. By the way, in fact, the academy seems to encourage people to think differently, you know, don't don't, you don't have to stick to traditional interpretations. And maybe there's a different way to look at this, and so on and so forth. So what does happen sometimes is when people were writing for your keen or writing like they would for
just any other academic journal,
some of them are a little bit surprised when they see some of the comments, which is like, Nope, that's not gonna work here. This interpretation goes against what all of these scholars of Tafseer have set, for example.
And so at that point, we have to look at both topics and sections of papers. And sometimes the totality of it may be rejected.
I don't want to specify, well, I mentioned something. So for example, we did have a paper that was submitted on imminent times view on the eternity of the Hellfire or the Hellfire being extinguished after a period of time, so on so on, and in the paper, we're humbled by the paper was well written, it was well researched, but it wasn't a keen piece.
But what do I mean by that? Meaning that the author
did his job well, Hungary law, but that particular opinion of Immanuel came about him a long time, it goes against what
our algorithm of orthodoxy allows for, especially because there was not enough to establish what is the, let's just call it the orthodox view, which is that the Hellfire is continuous, and that it is eternal. So as a result, no hard feelings, it's not like the author did anything wrong, it's just not a piece that works for your king,
we are very we we do deem it to be
a responsibility in front of Allah subhanho wa taala, that the information that we put out is credible.
That being said, whether I'm reviewing that piece or someone else's revealing the piece, it doesn't mean that we necessarily agree with every single opinion that comes through, it means that we believe that it is legitimate
in terms of its, it has evidence that supports it Islamically. And that there are scholars of the past, the early the early past, not not later scholars but but from from early on, who held these opinions,
and who evidence them or who had solid evidence for them from an assignment perspective. And it does not go against the consensus of the early scholars of Islam. So again, I know that was a mouthful, but it's very important to us that the information that goes out to the public is credible.
And we have a checklist of things I know it will take it will take a minute to go through. So obviously we're looking at Hadith of the Prophet, it has a lot to Sudan, we're looking at interpretation of the Quran. So sometimes, there's an interpretation that when I when I mean interpretation, I mean like translation person is translating, and it's a novel translation. It's like, wait a minute, where's this coming from? Because we can we can check against, you know, 7080 different translations
available in the English language. And then we say, well, this is totally different than all of those where did this come from? And then you know, this may be a back and forth with the author to say, wait a minute, consider, you know, this kind of translation, sometimes language is misleading. It may appear
that the author means one thing and so we have to go back and check and say, Wait a minute, that that may be misleading to an audience. So all of these are things that we take into consideration. So has this process has this process always been in place? And has it always been applied? Or is it something that has that has a history itself? Oh has a history itself? So
when I first you have three minutes, so I need you to be brief? How many? Three minutes? Okay, so very quickly, I would say
say that this process was in its infancy.
infancy and towards the end of 2019. Okay, let's put it this way, the current process that that Keane has for orthodoxy check when did it come into place?
Late 2020. Is is probably when it when it came into as it exists today. Okay, so before that, because, you know, keen has received a lot of criticism for some of the stuff published before that date, were there things that Yaqeen Institute published that did not adhere to Islamic orthodoxy
based on our review, yes, and that is why some of those pieces have since been removed and notes have gone out to say, this does not, though it was published by a Canadian Institute at one point, this does not adhere to our current standards of orthodoxy. So those standards have changed over time. And you're saying basically are the implication what you're saying is that from maybe late 2020, on, this is something where you can identify that the current process is in place, and it works. And you can basically be sure, within, you know, and everybody makes mistakes, but that there is a process that is going to give credibility to the things that Yaqeen Institute publishes that
they adhere to Islamic orthodoxy. So for full transparency, yes, that that process exists for research papers will humbly lead not all the way for podcast for other video content, just because of bandwidth. So but we we are putting processes in place via the United side for the future to also and it's not to say we do have some bouncing for every research piece, every single one, it goes through an orthodoxy check. Not every single podcast, not every single video series that goes through that same process, but some of them do.
So it's all it's in process. And I think that you know, and I said this to Dr. Wayman, when I had him on last week, that there's a lot of exciting things to look forward to, and that the process keeps developing and the content keeps developing. And, yeah, I mean, what Okay, so if I can just, if I can just comment on that, because I know, I know, you got to close out. But I do think this, I think that
I think we have a great responsibility. myself, personally, you and all of us who are involved in a research team, we have a great responsibility in front of Allah subhanaw taala, because European Institute does have influence
you know, in many different arenas, and with with influence comes responsibility, that the information that we're putting out is credible information. It's not misleading people, it is leading people the right way, and shallow to and from the die of the Prophet sallallahu wasallam.
At the very end of when he would ask Allah Subhana Allah to see his face, he would say
a llama you'd never seen it and Iman, which I know who that 10 What are the mean, right? So all our beautifiers adorn us with with the with the beauty of faith and make us from amongst the guy that who guide others, right. And so this is, this is ultimately what we're trying to do. We're trying to be amongst those who be ignited to either help to guide others to the beauty of this Deen of Islam and to hold on to it and to give them certitude and, and certainty in their faith and to nurture that you're keen within them being the Knights
mashallah, well that's I think the best point that we could possibly end this on checked out here I really appreciate your time and your insight as always, and we look forward to having you on many more times in Charlotte on the left we know it will be my pleasure may last for hands out to write for us was best in this life and the next one, no animals alone so nobody can intervene a moment. Somebody's gonna have to live with a courtesy exam while they can wassalam and I thought I've got to shake tie