Joseph in the Qur’an and the Bible #2
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Channel: Nouman Ali Khan
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Episode Notes
Joseph in the Qur’an 12_1-18), A comparative look at the Bible, Part 2
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AI Generated Summary ©
The conversation covers various topics related to the holy spirit and its influence on behavior, including popular titles like Joseph Campbell and Jacob. The discussion touches on language used in court proceedings, political events, and cultural topics like the origin of the Midianites and the use of "median licenses." The transcript is not a conversation or monologue, it is a series of sentences that describe a situation or situation that took place decades ago.AI Generated Transcript ©
Okay, here we are back again and hamdulillah
salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. Everybody. Can you hear me?
Yes, I can. Okay, excellent. I'm glad you jumped in just at the right time. I wanted to start off today
with a thought I had I've been thinking about our conversation since yesterday, and of course, inshallah we'll have to read on from where we left off my guests again, if you guys don't know the socket, socket, person and shift so hips aid and both of them are hamdulillah renowned scholars in their own field. And the the I won't, I'll skip the bio from last time, but I will just wanted to get straight to work. The thought I had yesterday when I was reading again, the second Ayah
Gatlin apostolica. Arsenal pazhassi Bhima. ohana ilica has been publicly let me know half a million and I kind of took posit, let me know half the lien, as opposed to in contempt a couple of years often, like there's a larger group, you are among those unaware, right, and unawareness has different degrees. So of course, the Arabs are unaware of the account as the Quran describes it. And also socialism without revolution is unaware of what lies in the Scripture. But it almost seems to be now as if Allah saying that those who carry the story with them are also unaware of certain truths. Like they're also among the unaware, you know, and their own right. And there's an awareness
being brought to the story of use of how they set up in a way that even as we're reading in Genesis, there are things that are going on is saying that the jet that Genesis comes unaware of,
you know, so anyway, that was just, that's really beautiful. Yeah, and it's really interesting to the ayah. Just before that talks about Koran rbn, which mentioned. And this this story, like I mentioned last time is hugely popular, but there's no record at all of anything in Arabic before this story. I said the first time the story is being told in the house. So it's one that it's in Arabic to that the facts that are being brought out in the story are so uniquely brought out and are, in a sense, buried away in the previous renditions of the story. And the other I was thinking, you know, say when we talked about accidental causes and how you can look at causes of Naxos. And
that, you know, and one way of reading that is the best story, the best of all stories, but it can also be understood as the best of the story, meaning the or even the word so I keep saying best, but really the most beautiful truths of the story are being brought out, which is also kind of embedded inside asset classes. And that's, that's becoming more manifest as we go through this read. Yeah, we were thinking about the IRA, which says, you know, allogeneic, stem Your Honor Code of national Yeah, yeah, you hear something and you take the best thing from it, the most beneficial meanings, the most beneficial lessons and things that you will apply, you know, apply to your own
action.
Okay, just one more. One more thing about offering. It actually comes up later. So we can we can jump back into later because no, no, tell me no,
no, no, I got thirsty.
Sorry. I said drop it while it's hot.
So it's to do it. It's actually related to the second dream. So maybe we can do the second dream because it's gonna come up. Okay. Okay, so look, and he said, Look, I dreamed a dream again. And look, the sun and the moon and 11 stars were boggling to me. And by the way, it stopped me whenever you could just say start with Don't say like the whole movie, please consider stopping like.
Okay, so just to stop, and he recommended.
There's no acid you're on. Okay.
So a little cheers between me and you know,
the club hasn't joined yet.
So, we sort of left last time on the second dream, right. So I tried to raise this question. The Quran sort of feeding up this initial part of the story a little bit so it cuts off the cuts out the introduction altogether. And there's problematic aspects in that anyway, which is maybe why it cuts them cuts it out. And then you have to dreams if this got the one. And a question that arises in my mind is
the grinds are speeding up the narrative here and simplifying it a bit. But why take this dream rather than the other dream? raise the question other dream would
prime facie would seem to be less theologically problematic, right one, she's bound to another shift by the way. I misspoke. They're the kind of bundles of
Kind of a wheat, whatever, it's not single straws.
So, so part of it, I suggested was that it's correcting a rabbinic idea that dreams can have just partial fulfillment, because the mothers already died. And the Quran serves insists that he read it off either way he that he raised both of his parents of the other three. So there's another part of it, which has to do with how Christians were reading the story. So there's, there's a really nice article that Sharif accom friend recommended to me by hagas, Ellington.
petrological, anthropology looks at the the stories in the Quran of the angels bowing to Adam,
and why they would be included in the Koran when potentially the theological problematic from the point of view of the strict tauheed of the Quran. And what he shows really beautifully, is that, in fact, if you bear in mind, number one, the audience of the Quran and number two how that story is being read by the surrounding communities. The story is absolutely and starkly emphasize the reality of it. So you have the pagan Arabs, for example, who was very clear from the Quran have this cult of angel worship, right.
And what the story is doing is saying, Angel worship makes a sense as the angels who bow to Adam, and now here you are taking the angels as deities I see. And at the same time, the story is being read in the Christian tradition as it was a precursor for Christ. And so he's a sort of semi deified figure,
as kind of a forerunner just to kind of give people a foretaste of one day, a truly deified figure will come. And just as the angels are bound to Adam, everyone will bow to that actual defied fig ticker, Jesus. And what's really interesting is that the words that recur in the Syriac stories for Ireland include his dashboard, so and his good show His Holiness, and his
spear, is this big one. Know sahbihi hum, Zika.
Same story and says that this be, and this is not for Adam, right? It's for God. So the story is affirming, to heat to the earth by rejecting Angel worship, funding to heat to the Christians by rejecting that ad, but that is such that had anything to do with a partner.
And then finally, the way that you're reading this story, what they're saying this is a prime example of Adams wisdom, his hotma. And that was important them because the rabbi's one of the names for themselves is the half I mean, the wise ones through the stages.
And they said that what demonstrates his wisdom is that look,
they also had this idea of the angels being present at the start of creation, which isn't in Genesis, do you find it in most Christian Jew stories? That look, the angels didn't know the names of these creatures, but Adam, in his wisdom knew, and the Quran takes that away from them, as well as as, just as the angels didn't know, Adam only knew because God taught him. So you have this like really interesting, three way kind of message in the Quran at these groups, so if you apply the same sort of thinking to the Joseph narrative, in the Quran, just as there is this cult of angel worship, this clearly kind of this ancestral cult, that Croatia, right, kind of almost in a bath of their
fathers,
that this is not the dinner fathers was not Abba, Anna karateka falloon. Right.
Right. And as far as the pricing thing is saying, just as Look, it makes no sense to worship the angels, because the angels barter item makes no sense to worship your father's because sometimes the fathers have to bow to the sons, right, the sons can have something which is superior to what the fathers came with. So it's, I think, a really powerful way to undermine that kind of message. And then from the Christian perspective, they were looking at this as a, again, they were looking at Joseph, just that they looked at Adam and Jonah and several other Old Testament figures, as a precursor for Christ. So all these figures are really there to kind of teach you that someone's
coming wonder who be truly divine, and the true Savior, not just Savior.
Exactly. all of humanity. And also,
what he really picked up on like everyone picks up on this is the fact that Look, everyone bows down to him. And that is to let you know that one day you will have to bow down to everyone. And so the Quran retains the fact they won't bow down to him, but again, again, emphasizes because it gets to be Cara buka
and Jalla hora de haka. So it affirms the borrowing, but then it kind of continuously emphasizes that.
Yeah.
So I think those are some of the
reasons for eating disorders.
Again, what caught my attention there from Osaka mentioned, among other things was this this because this issue comes up in the Tafseer to silver Razi right at the end when, when the frustration happens, he has this long discussion about, you know, how could it be possibly? How can you be accepted that the senior, the father, who has all the rights of fatherhood go straight to the sun? and Yahoo being a senior prophet who has done more worship and all these things? How could he do and then there's a whole bunch of answers expands over several pages, but it just shows you sometimes that maybe the meaning behind that could be found by making reference to other things, external
things, which just shed a different kind of light on it. Right, when it no longer seems so problematic. But actually, due to this, ah, there's actually had a purpose, which, which is achieved. And maybe that purpose was achieved for a particular kind of audience.
Who would have got the point or who would have certainly been been struck by the
remarkable Okay, so let's get to the dream then.
So he dreams a dream and look at the the sun and the moon 11 star. So the first thing I noticed was a change in sequence.
Right? from the Quran, 11 stars, the sun and the moon.
And the other is he recounted as I read on, and he recounted it to his father and his brothers. And his father rebuked him, and said to him, what is this dream that you've dreamed? Shall we really come? I am your mother and your brothers to bow before you to the ground. And his brothers were jealous of him. And so and this last part I'm a little confused about while his father kept the thing in mind. Yeah, well, it is. Yeah, there's a few pieces here. Let me recount my questions to you hear. First, the father's rebuking him, which is obviously contradicting the Crown's narrative, the Koran is actually, the dad's validating him when he sees the dream, but he recounts the dream.
Second, the Bible, apparently the biblical version is that the mother's has passed. And then you've got the mother bowing. So how is that making sense from the biblical point of view? And then what does it mean that the dad kept the thing in mind?
So just you know, just the mother thing, because maybe the easiest.
You know, I like to say the rabbi's and various opinions, maybe the dream didn't get fulfilled, maybe Rachel, who had passed away, it wasn't his actual mother, maybe it was Nate seven, who was his actual biological mother.
But modern scholarship tend to think that the Genesis is composed of initially independent stories, right? They're floating around orally, or maybe in written form, and then brought together by final editor. And so the part of Rachel dying is an independent tradition, the part of the Joseph stories are independent Russian, and it was just retained. And that is one of like several inconsistency that you see across, across detected.
Classically, right, the star Genesis, there's two creation stories, right? chapter one is oppression stories, Chapter Two is a whole separate creation story. So how about a love for the Quran?
So that's how modern scholarship tends to understand that it's just an inconsistency that arises from these being independent
traditions that were amalgamated.
So in terms of Yeah, in terms of his father rebuking him, we're keeping him as you see this kind of tension, right. So as far as rebuking him for this kind of disrespectful dream. Yeah. At the same time, he's keeping it in mind. He's not completely dismissing it.
And that's, I think, explicable. If you look at the nature of dreams in Genesis, Joseph dream is really unique.
So Abraham, prior to him, as has dreams with God, and Jacob himself has dreams with God. And then those are the fairy dreams, if God Himself sort of manifests Himself in some way or another and communicates to the, to Abraham or to go to Jacob.
Joseph is not having a dream, but he's not seeing God, it's a much more kind of secular dream, right. So that, for me, is a really,
really important clue as to what is happening in Genesis.
Jacob sort of has the kind of split he knows the power of dreams, but at the same time recognizes God's men appearance. And this is a strategy that recurs in this story is it's it's a very secular, patriarchal story in that God is very much in the background only appears occasionally. And that for me, it's really one of the rarest one of the rarest names of a lot used in the stories. Latif.
Yeah, yeah.
There's a contrast between those two attributes in the story that's like if you think of Allah Israel in the story from the Quran point of view, you know, Allahu Allah when Allah Emery and Latif, holy Maya are actually the two tensions that weave the entire story together.
And when you said that I was like, Yeah, yeah, that's really it was was really fascinating for me. I don't know if you remember chef said, we were at that conference together in London biblical traditions in the Quran. And there was a really nice presentation on third use of by Adam Silverstein, as an Israeli scholar, and he spoke of this recurring feature in students use of we have this kind of secular secularization of
a theological language. So Arabica isn't the sort of, but it occurs again and again for something somewhere other than God, disease occurs in the sort of Vedic culture, someone hasn't got Eileen, a cousin sooner, but for other than God, but she records but for them, and you've got this list of 2021 things is clearly kind of a motif in the use of where you have religious vocabulary, which is a repurposed and secularized. And this was really interesting is that Genesis is doing the same thing. So you have dreams, which we know, as we read through Genesis are a marker of God being involved but suddenly got missing, right? So that's, I mean, this this really interesting to me for like two main
reasons, I think. So firstly,
the way modern scholarship, academic scholarship tend to look at the Quran is to say, well, we shouldn't be comparing the Quran to the Bible directly as to anachronistic. That's the only marginally useful, we should be looking at what how is the Bible being read at the time of the Quran? Right? So what were the Jews and Christians how they interpreted about and that's really what the Quran is interpreting with engaging with, and that certainly has its use. But then you get these really interesting throwbacks like this, where there's something very subtle happening in the Bible, which is only picked up in modern scholarship. And the Quran is doing something very similar itself,
which is a much more intimate, and which
have Christian tradition, or Jewish tradition that was accessible to the Arabs, but actually a larger body. Yeah, yeah. Why
that bring it to life is we mentioned earlier, Raphael in the Quran, again, you have this really unusual use of lawful, right? Because that's not how often ordinary use no Quran, or the ordinary use of lawful isn't something that you would apply to the Prophet. Right.
So this is part of, I think, a strategy in sort of user for motif, which one should look out for. But then what's interesting is not only that the Quran is sort of directly picking up on something that's happening in Genesis and carrying that tradition forward, is what both texts do with that, then, like, why are they doing that? What's the kind of core purpose and in Genesis, you find that out right near the end, so I'm gonna leave it there. And
we'll see, I think, why Genesis is doing that. And at that point, also, we can think about why the garage, like I think, basically, they're going, they're both using the same technique and pulling in in different directions. But I'm gonna leave it alone. Okay, that's an interesting obscurity that you left us with. I'm gonna mispronounce this, this geographical location that's mentioned in the Bible. So you will correct it for me. And his brothers went to graze their father's flock at shfm. Yeah. Oh, I got it. Right. Okay.
And Israel said to Joseph, you know, your brothers or pasturing, chum, Come, let me send you to them. And he said to them, here I am. And he said to them, go pray to see how your brothers fare and how the flock fares and bring me backward. He sent up Okay, go ahead. Go ahead. Yes, as far as just note, a couple of things. There's obviously a discrepancy with the correct narrative here.
But
there's a cup
I should have mentioned, I mentioned this earlier is about
in the in the Quran. And the brothers are plotting against us before they go out right? before they go crazy. They're already out there at home, and they want to kill him. And then they have to convince the father to stand just about with them. Whereas we'll see in the story here in Genesis, that plot occurs. It's just a more of an instantaneous thing. happenstance. Oh, here he is. Yeah, what let's just yeah, here's an opportunity. Right and it's pretty remarkable that dad feels so safe to send use of our to his brothers. Yeah. And you've got from the very beginning don't even tell them a dream. And
like so we get going out with them don't even have certain conversations with them. Right. So there's an a polar opposite extra cautionary measures between the child
And as brothers and on the other side, there's this overwhelming sense of security, you need to go out to your brother's way out there. And go bring me back word on your own. Right. Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting difference. But but but what we do see in the Bible, though, which is perhaps a forerunner to what we see in the Quran is, although they they're not plotting against him explicitly at this stage, the language is really suggestive that they have something in mind. So it says his brother jealous of him, right, the word that can,
is used consistently for jealousy, which is followed by action, which is followed by some kind of
punitive, scheming and punitive action. So as soon as you read it, you know that it's not just going to be something that they left to leave to simmer, it's going to have some impact on their actions, and then the fact that they go to shfm. So shfm,
just a few chapters ago, has occurred.
It's the place where Jacob's sons are these the same brothers of Joseph, where they slaughtered the sons of, of hammer, hammer son, who was also called chef and
raped, Jacob's daughter, Dina, and Jacob sons then basically orchestrated a trap, and they massacred the entire entire family. So the fact that Shechem is mentioned is, again, kind of suggestive that
not necessarily that you know, they're going there in order to kill just as well. But just as part of the plot to let you know that something else mergers is afoot.
And then also the fact that he says, Here I am Hindi need that again, you see that recurring in Genesis when a father is about to lose a son or, or is on the verge of losing a son. So when
Abraham is taking Isaac,
and, you know, it's this time Abraham, Isaac is addressing Abraham, he's saying, where's, you know, where's the firewood, and he, every time he addresses Abraham, Abraham says, Hey, honey, here I am. When Isaac is talking to Assad, just before there's a rupture between them, he says, He calls him and says him any area. So there's several indications that something is about to happen. So although it's true that the, the plot isn't explicitly mentioned until later,
you can see already that
you know, that there's this kind of murder in the
circle. Remarkable. Okay. So go pray to see your brother, how your brothers fare and how the flock fares and bring me backward and he sent him from the Valley of Hebron. And he came to shfm. And a man found him and look, and look, he was wandering in the field, and the man asked him saying, What is it you seek? And he said, my brothers I seek, tell me pray, where are they pastoring. And the man said, they have journeyed on from here for I heard them say, Let's go, let us go to doeth end. And I said,
I don't know, Dawson's
Creek pronunciation is.
So So dosen, I think, is this is over 10 miles away from shotgun. Shotgun is already out
on the outskirts of where they're staying, and then they're going even further out to dawn. So what this text is saying is that he was far removed from
from his home. So it's something you know, we're taking three, four hours
walking to get that. And then the fact that he's wandering in the field,
though, I think is the word that's using Hebrew is there is the same word as used for when sheep go wandering astray. Alright, so that's mainly because even though the story isn't going to mention, wolf is still referring to or hinting and associating Joseph with being right a wandering sheep, which is then subject to being preyed on by wolves.
So you see some some interesting connections there as well. Okay.
So
and he said my brothers I seek Tell me where the kashering okay they've got nothing. And Joseph went after his brothers and found them adult and and they saw him from afar before he drew near them, and they put it against him to put him to death. Okay, so that that that's the fact that for him from from afar, that will be explained later. How do they know that it was him from from afar? And this was that the yeah was the shirt, the tunic that you
hear comes that dreamer, that dream Master?
And so now let us kill him and fling him into the pit one of the pits, and we can say a vicious beast as this devoured him, and we shall see what will come of his dreams. And Robin heard and came to his rescue and said, We must not take his life. And Ruben said to them, shed no blood, fling him into this pit in the wilderness.
And do not raise a hand against him that he might rescue him from their hands. Right, bring him back to his father. Right.
So dream master is Valhalla not like? lamb? So it's really it's like dripping with socket. Right. There comes that cycle. I love. I see.
And
second, sorry. It's a dream, Lord. Reload. Yeah.
So the vicious beast isn't specified. It's just really Russia, Russia, I think.
I think yeah.
So it's just a wild beast. And in rabbinic tradition is generally considered a bad and Christian tradition is considered the wolf.
And for the for the Christians is because again, it's part of the topology, they want to compare Joseph, to Jesus. And Jesus is the Lamb, which means Joseph is the language means does your tactic are the other rules.
Okay, we really homed in on this, that no man when we were talking about when they said, How to sit at home, and you're done. Yo Italia lab.
Right, so she agreed to the two readings of your avatar from Raja is actually, normally animals eating animals consuming a lot occluded by him as the same, right? human beings, but normally it's applied to animals, not to humans, raw. And then other reading, you're attacking. Right, which is that he will graze. And that also is actually more naturally used for the animals for the animal because it was last him. And then they're the suburb, they're the suburb of
India. So the so they kind of been an extrapolation that by extension, karate is being called the military but
so for, you know, the audience. So your, your daddy, one of the readings was that he will graze the animals, but he can actually be read, he will graze as a sheep would, which
is a more direct meaning of your tie. Actually, yeah, that would be the more direct meaning and it's more figuratively interpreted as he will graze as in the animals, because it's an intransitive verb. So it actually applies to the self instead of the animals. That because it otherwise would be, yeah, not yesterday,
last night, and that fits in with kind of him being portrayed as the lost sheep, you know, right. At the eyes, it's actually the cognitive of the art. As I'm hearing this, it's not just occurring to me that these are contradictory accounts, but it's almost as if, okay,
maybe I don't know this, but maybe the Quran is hinting at, okay, they take him to this faraway place already, the outskirts that they're expected to go to is Sham, but they're all doing dopin. Right, so they're going out of them, other than other, so they're further out than their normal, you know, the city limits according to the biblical account, then you've got this idea that,
you know, the imagery is being played on here, they called him a sheep,
in a sense, and here, you've got the biblical count where he's wandering on his own, but actually, they see him as a sheep, and they've kind of turned into the wolves. You know, it's, it's this motif that's being played on from what kind of the mindset of the Genesis story is there, but now it's being retold in such a profoundly different way.
You know, from from the some of these themes, these literary themes are captured in the Quran, but then told in a very different way, like
them, I would think, if you were to kind of sort of reconcile the two, them taking their brother all the way out 10 miles even further from the farthest they normally goal is to ensure there's no coming back.
You know, and it raises an interesting question of
this is how some of the Christians were reading the story, as did they know that if they are out for so long, their father would send Joseph to look for them. So in that case, it is premeditated that you know, so when they say, Gary comes, let's kill him. That's not an kind of just off the spur reaction. It's something that was already hinted at in the text. And now you know, why they've taken so long to kind of
be out
yonder Quran even taking so long now they're saying they take they took so long to maybe provoked Joseph to, you know, to compel Joseph Campbell, Jacob to send Joseph out there. But Carranza cow, you've got a shot and you have gone. So the idea of them taking all day, but as you and I were discussing, perhaps the literal usage and the deliberate usage of a shot and yeppoon in the Koran, is to actually almost even make it seem
To the father, we'd been looking for him all day, we were unsuccessful. There's no way to even get a trace of him at night. So we're just coming back. And also it makes it impossible for dad to go out on a hunt at night or to go for a search, because it's few times at that point. So they so shy as part of the alibi that they're going to pitch to their father.
Yeah, so I just noticed that there's nice wordplay as well, that I hadn't picked up on before, that Joseph is described as using the R to wander and you have your tie in. Wow. This is nice wordplay there, which, again, is one or several kind of indications that there's a much more direct engagement with Genesis than you might expect.
If you work on the model, that the Quran is just engaged with kind of the oral stuff that's being flipped that's floating around Arabia,
even though To be honest, like just just from this discussion, that we always wondered, as well. And Athena kind of wonder why he mentioned a word.
Why did it come to your mind at this point? So they said things like,
it may have been a very, you know, wolf laden area that they were going to this, which is all possible. But even it could just be just the fact that they use that language is going to play out like a sheep like a lamb. So then immediately sort of shooting back read, but I'm worried about the wolf. Yeah. Even
if you were saying that he's not trying to be too directly antagonistic to Merck, they're meant to get their crazy out even more. But at the same time, he's trying to let them know that I'm not entirely naive to your schemes. And perhaps the you know, it seems to me anyway, that him saying the wolf isn't just him literally referring to a wolf, or
giving some alibi. He's also trying to get at them. And saying, I can sense the wolf in you, as you described him as a sheep running around in the fields.
You know, yeah.
Yeah. I just wanted to raise a couple. Do we get to just 23 to bring him back to his father?
No, we didn't say shut no blood yet. No. Okay to say that. We read that again, shed no blood pulling it pulling him into this pit in the wilderness. I do not raise a hand against him. And he might rescue him from their hands and bring it back to his father. Yeah. Right. So the point here is that the,
the Well, that's being brought up here. This is a difference in the ground, that from that perspective, they're not. They're still killing him. There's no mention of any traders, the traders kind of come later on and then they get the idea. Oh, wait with me. Why don't we tell him? So Shana blood me. Here. What Ruben is suggesting to them isn't spare his life is just let him die of starvation and thirst in the pit rather than directly take his life. And they're happy to do that. So for them this at this point in the story, they're still just wandering out of the way.
And they want to know in a distinct way, yes. So let me ask you, maybe this is coming, but he wanted he might rescue him from their hands. Is it not that Reuben is selling them a more graphic alternative, though, he intends to undercut them and try to save him? Is that is that the Bible's account?
He wants to save them, but he sort of he's saying, look, this way, you his blood won't be on your hands.
And it's really ironic, because they will still effectively have killed him. But technically, they haven't shed his blood.
So it's kind of a way of getting out of shedding his blood, water at the same time ensuring that he's dead. And for Ruben, Ruben does seem genuinely trying to get to save him. But what's interesting is shed no blood, which I have the Hebrew here, see if you can recognize it. So I'll fish Altis for who done L which is love Kadima. Yeah, not that's pretty cool. Adam, right.
DeMarco, will add to
the article, right? And this is really interesting in parallel with that passage. And what's interesting is that they are kind of being swayed by kind of pi artistic arguments here. Because he says to them, Look, if you follow my strategy, technically you won't have killed him. And then later on, when they sell him, they say, look, if we sell him, then again, technically, we're not killing him. He's our own flesh. Right? So they're kind of convincing themselves that they're doing something right by adopting the stratagems as after talking about their kitabi with a coup.
So it's really interesting parallels some really interesting parallels with that with that story. And it's pretty remarkable that that's a straight criticism of the Israelites. Bunny.
Right? In the most literal sense, the sons of Israel
Yeah, that's, that's remarkable insight into the biblical narrative and, like from the client's point of view, and to the Jewish mindset over time.
Wow. Okay, so, and it happened when Joseph came to his brothers, that they stripped Joseph of his tunic, the ornamental tunic that he had on him, and they took him and flung him into the pit. And the repetition of tunic is to let you know how they recognized him from it. Okay, and the pit was empty, and there was no water in it. And they let you know that he didn't drown. drown. Yeah.
So here's the tweet, guys, I'm gonna drop this hold on you, I was sitting with some scholar that shall not be named. Who was teaching me this read? volunteer to teach me that read? Because he's sitting there. So he said, he asked me to read the I, you know, houfy herberton job. And he said, you have to say job.
And he did this like,
thing. Yeah. And he said this because
a water drop.
Just remember that I was 20 years old. But that was my water dropping.
So, I mean, guys are gonna ask you, there was a couple of we did talk about a couple of ways. Did you eat this sort of, I was also thinking about, you know,
my
eyes are like, designed to have these models and is lengthening because there's so much you can do with that. And then when the when the wave of disease, you know, gets caught in the act. And then she says, Call it magic.
Woman rather be alakazoo.
Jana,
and then you suffer some just says, color here. Ah, well, that's me and FC, necessarily says
there's no mud and all this, you know. So there's, there's a lot here, like even the sounds of how people are sort of manipulating the words and manipulating emotions and all the potentials expressed there evidence sound. That's awesome.
That is awesome.
Water and the Bible says there's the water in the thing. So
the drop of water with the job was like
with this with this alicona we have answered the Bible plus
Polycom visa visa.
Okay. So this
is another example of this right of kind of terminology that's ordinarily used in a theologically very charged way. And here is some kind of quiz. This is really consistent with youth in the in the studio audience because, you know, they keep track of what you guys are eating and drinking. So I just wanted to let you know, for our audience, it's just as a clarification, when you say that there are secular motifs, some people are gonna fall off their chair, and are gonna have slaughtered lamb to make up for what
I was just qualified. Let me just use there are words that are being used in select Use of that usually refer to Alaska or the Astra. And now they're being used for matters in the dunya. And we're used Why are you being used for other than Allah like typically, the word Aziz is used as one of the names of Allah but now as it's being used as Minister, or Rob is an attribute to Allah, but the ROB house and the rob the king, also excetera and Malik also, of course, is coming. Yeah, yeah. And they were Dean is coming he deeded money, or the Quran for religion, and it's being used for the Kings constitution or the Kings code. You know, so the she she met by circular. You're right, somebody's
gonna make a point. This is promoting secular. No, it's not promoting secularism, this is just you have more experience with these.
But anyway, I just thought that should be said.
So anyway, so I'm going to so this automated tunic, they took it off of him, the pit was empty, there was no water in it, and this had down to eat bread. And they raised their eyes and saw Look, a caravan of ishmaelites was coming from gilliat their camels bearing gum and bomb and latinum on their way to take down to Egypt. And Judah said to his brothers, what gain is there If we kill our brother and cover up his blood
Come let us sell them to the ishmaelites in our hands will not be again against him, for he is our brother and our flesh our own planet.
So yeah, and was agreed. So, again, notice what's happened.
They want you to kill him. And Ruben said, No, don't don't kill him, just throw him into the well, brackets, let him starve to death. And now, and then and then, you know, it's not about and I was saying, Well, you know, that's still dead now they've got this opportunity to make some cash. And this and this are saying, Well, actually, you're still killing him, isn't it? So that's not good. So they're, they're they they kind of giving up the game that they knew that it still matter. And even if that is
perhaps what adds commentary so well at local but infocomm is pretty remarkable commentary on how the the moral compass is shifting constantly. For them for the ad, what the kuhlmann body is common salahaddin, right.
How do you think that you can you can see that they each stage, adopting what they see is the lesser of two evils.
And justifying it themselves as well. This is not so bad.
Moving goalposts for them in the in the biblical narrative, it's made explicit, right that they're the ones who sold him on to the caravan, right.
Yeah, so there's actually a mistranslation coming up, that will point out because there's some confusion because the Midianites are about to make an appearance. And that's caused some confusion with the scholars, because there's the ishmaelites and the Midianites. But it's really clear that the Midianites is just another term for the ishmaelites. And elsewhere in the Bible. It says that Midianites
are a group of the ishmaelites. Or maybe it's the other way around, but it's clear that they're synonymous. So some, some people have sort of read this and said, well, the text is sort of corrupted here. Because it's, you know, the brothers want to sell him to the ishmaelites. When the Midianites, come and the Midianites, enter the ishmaelites. And by the time they get to the to Egypt, is the Midianites. Rather, Israelites were selling him on to Portugal. And you guys avoid saying no, no, it's Midianites nation is the same people as attested elsewhere in the Bible. And it is the cause of the confusion is the pronoun we're gonna come to it. They right. So it mentioned the
median licenses, and they pull them out. And people think, well, this is obviously the thing the media has print up, it's not you have to look at it contextually is talking about the brothers the
use of the pronouns in the surah, as well, because you have, you know, the rule will be law. At that point, you know, who is concealing him, but there's a clean enough is probably clear enough that that's the travelers. So the waterbenders and maybe hiding it from the other travelers? Because there was some interest in in not sharing this, this find that they have stumbled upon? But then after that, you know, we're sure all will be feminine ducks in the row, Mr. Duda. What can we feed him as a dean? So there's basically two main opinions here, either that's referring to these people who have found him then sold them on for a paltry price, because they kind of they were concerned
about holding on to this liability, who might flee again, or whose rightful owner might come along or whatever. But the other view, which is, which is there in deficit in or inherited from him? nobis. But the love and humor is that this is referring to the brothers. Oh, wow. And read through the Tafseer as well that it was sold him on for a paltry price.
Why did they do so what can we feed him in is a hidden, either the fee he refers to
use of meaning to say that they, you know, they didn't value him very highly anyway, so they accepted any price, or what kind of fee if it's someone managed to say, they weren't really concerned about the price, you know, they didn't care about the money. So they sold him for a few few silver coins, it can also mean
a third, there's two things there's something that's gonna make my head explode if I don't say it, but I'll wait for that. We're gonna be human is it can also mean if it even if it is attributed to the brothers, that not only did they sell him, they sold him for a meaningless price, because they just want this transaction over with before anybody finds out. So yeah, I have experienced living in New York City. And if you're coming home from work at a late hour in New York City, somebody is trying to sell you a watch back in the day or something. They'll take any price.
Because they're looking around because they probably mug somebody around the corner before. So they have Zoho in the price. Okay, fine. I'll take 10 I'll take 10 you'll sort of $500 I'll give you 10 bucks.
But what's really interesting here, that's really what it is. We're getting a little bit ahead of ourselves.
So to head Yeah, so so the brothers are going to pull him out of the well, and send him to the ishmaelites, truck Midianites for 20 pieces of silver, right? That's a huge amount of money. That's for these are farmers. So they would earn that amount of money in about two to three years.
Oh, so the Quran is saying that that huge sum of money, they had no idea what the value of the child was, you know, so you can read that kind of theme in his ideas in a completely different way. A lot of money out of it, but they just had no idea what they were doing. Okay, so here's what my head was gonna explode with. You have, I talked about the literary parallels between the story of masala Salaam and the story of Lucifer. So I'm in the beginning of this series, and something just occurred to me, the stopover before he is in the before he has to go back to Egypt in the Moses account is madeon.
Like, there's a muddy and Stockholm, and it's in the proximity of water. And then he's back in Egypt. And now you got a stopover at a well, and then you've got the Midianites. And he's gonna be in Egypt.
My God, my God.
Just the idea of causes one step following the other, you know, like so.
Anyhow,
so we are from here, they're going to come back to the Father, because that's the Qurans depiction of it the selling of it is put later on. So in the sequence of telling the story, which is why we haven't actually talked about it in our series way because up to 18. The selling has not yet been talked about.
But what is what is talked about is them coming back home and telling the story to their dad. So I was hoping today, we can actually wrap that up and read through Yeah. I'm telling and telling that accountant, that's where we're gonna close this discussion. I'll go back to my series, get to the Egypt account and then we'll come back and reconvene and you know, pick up from that part of the story each other. So let's do that. So
so I'm going to skip the the the selling portion of this because I'd rather compare that to when we read when we study the origins account of the selling and you know, ending up in Egypt and all of that. So what verse two I pick up from, to
talk about them telling the story tale for their dad. So maybe from and Reuben came back to the pit because
halfway through halfway through verse 2029,
okay, and Ruben came back to the pit. And look, Joseph was not in the pit, and he rent his garments and came back to his brothers. And he said the boys gone and I Where can I turn? And they took Joseph's tunic and slaughtered it kid slaughtered a kid, and dip the tunic and blanket.
Yeah, it says a kid okay.
In the blood, and they sent the ornament tunic, and had it brought to their father and they said, this we found, recognize, prayed, is it your son's tunic or not? And he recognized it and he said, it's my son's tunic. A vicious beast has devoured him, Joseph has torn to shreds. And Joseph Joseph rent his clothes and put sackcloth around his waist and mourn for his son many days, and all his sons and his daughters rose to console him and he refused to be consoled. And he said rather I will go down to my son and chill Morning. Morning. And his father keen for him. But the Midianites had sold them to Egypt. Okay, so that's moving on. Okay, so that's this. There's a lot to unpack here.
But the what is rent has gardens toward their gardens out of greed. Yeah, is this one This was a Stan. So these two three things that are mentioned of tearing your garments, wearing kind of a loincloth. And we're third thing that says
and more and more just weep. There's another standard kind of ritualistic ways of mourning. I see in ancient Israel.
Yeah. So what's this? The first part of this is a little confusing. Reuben came back and cried that the boys gone. Did they say
that one night so that's Yeah, so I mean, so some people have tried to
in biblical scholarship, there's this really lazy way out when you don't understand the story. They say the text is corrupted, right? What scholarship and they do that with the Quran, Quran as well. But if you read carefully is really clear what's happened. So Reuben wants you to save him. And so he said, let's put him in the pit and let him basically starve to death. That's the subtext as to why he's away. In the meantime, the other brothers see this caravan and Judas says that sell him so they sell him. So then Reuben is then going according to his original plan of going to the world
rescuing him, but he's gone in the meantime. And so Reuben is very clear. He's the eldest son. He's not part of the plot. He didn't he was trying to find a way out. But it happened despite his efforts.
I see. The Quran doesn't seem to exonerate him in that way.
No.
We're later. Like, is there a special reason why they want to sort of whitewash Rubin? Maybe in a way? I don't know.
Later on in Jewish history, no, not not particularly. So I'm not sure what's going on here. I have to look into I don't know. I mean, we have at best, you know, colocado minimum is not named. And then the capacity, you know, fill in these gaps,
with a lot of inconsistency about who the client
is mentioned later, who's mentioned late when they're in
when Benjamin gets taken, is a beautiful that they say it was the same person McCartan, for example, said it's the same one, but I'm not sure he named them as Reuben, I think they tend to name him as Yoda. But did they say they could be they could be in a home or part time? I can't remember the
Yeah.
Does it? I can't remember exactly what the phrasing is. Because if this can be done, then that would fit in with what we see here.
Whether it's some level of exoneration, that is, are we missing something? Is the dad going to say more than this? Or just talk about his morning? No, you're gonna call them out on their lie? Is he going to No, no, he's can he's clearly convinced. And that's probably so.
Because the dream for him was ambiguous. And so it's not problematic for him to be convinced because you want to show what it might mean. And the Quran because he's seen the dream, he knows that he can't be murdered, right? Yes, yes. And he's calling out they're lying, very elaborate, methodical fashion. So jacobellis lambs response to all of it. First of all, starting with Bell, bell already tells you it's a world inside of it. Because all this entire story you've just concocted, which I wasn't buying. And clearly, at the end of it all, you have to bring the shirt out because the shirt is not the first thing they bring out in the in the closet,
the closet count, they first come up with the story. And then when the story is not being sold, they pull out what I call the nuclear device like here, can you just totally be and also, I was saying in my, in my lecture on this, that when, you know, if you're if your brother was actually lost, and he was devoured by an animal, then your primary concern would not be whether or not father will believe you. Your primary concern would be the grief that you're overrun with.
But the Quran says mama and 30 million our openness audit in which itself just them saying that is it even if the if the openness or the pain wasn't there, which is a red flag already? It doesn't get better than that. But the the woma antebi movement, Ilana itself is actually a pretty good giveaway that they're more concerned about convincing dad then they are about what happened. Yeah.
There's another word by the way. Another thing
Wow, yeah.
Yeah. Wow, there's a lot.
Yeah, that's really nice. Yeah, sorry. Sorry.
God, sorry. You have to do as well comes up you know, they call him use.
Yeah.
Another term for duality meaning so then you've got the father not responding with mourning. Here you've got mourning and I'm going to mourn to it's actually
as much as it can be that it here. They're saying that their sons tried to console him. Right? But you've got to know Quran actually them going at him for being in grief later on and seeing if Dakota Caruso had Tokuda heroin, so they're actually upset with him for his grief. And then before all of that he's actually First of all, he says button, which means this entire story, whatever it is, isn't what actually happened. Instead, all I know something has happened, and I don't know what it is, but it's Ameren, some decision you've taken. And you made this convenient for yourselves or justified it to yourselves, made it made it suitable for yourself to take this course of action. And
he's actually analyzed their entire concocted story that there and what it also seems from the Quranic text is that they're struggling to convince him and he's not buying it.
And to the point where literally coma and Toby lacunas advocate and they keep coming up with more descriptive ways of convincing him and he just says
He's trying to get them to surrender their position. So hope I didn't mention this to you when we were discussing about Entebbe walking in it's that be nice Lennar. Right. And and Amina Allah who has an implication of surrender in a to
Kabbalah and other nanako Lumina laka hatanaka, aloha Jonathan to cave in to surrender to give into somebody demands as opposed to the preposition but it's almost as though they're saying not only will you will believe us, you're not surrendering to the version that we want you to just cave and take. You're not buying it, can you just quit it? And they're saying that time so the Quran is actually fighting back against this response of Yusuf alayhi salam, which I think is important for Muslims to note also because a lot of times Muslims assume that the response of use of an ISA or Yahuwah a sound rather was passive, that he that he just said, suburban, you know, sat back and
you've got to Carranza calibre, he just went into mourning and that's it.
Right there's no let's go out and look for him or a search or whatever else. There's there's no further course of action. But in the in the language chosen in the Quran for jacoba It seems there is an elaborate course of action. There's a lot of back and forth with his brothers, and he's just kind of stuck at the end of it all. He can't get them to open up there. They've dug their heels in. They're not giving him the real story. And so that's the point where he says sovereign jameela la holsteiner lamotta soon, because he has no other way of getting to find out what happened. Then if you're saying, show him and then another 10 miles, Dothan. Where's he gonna go look and old man by
himself.
You know.
So it is a pretty important contrast.
Yeah.
Just Just
furthering the studio, it is on a computer home than
an American but but most women, probably Masato for us, suggests that the Kabir right wasn't part of the fleet. And that that does fit in with it. Yes. All right. Right. However, if they came back and concocted that story, he did go along with it, right? Yes. As he as he does it as he does in the Bible as well. Yeah. Right. So, okay, he didn't get his hands dirty. But you know how you have mandla arm incumbent current for you. Hi, yo via de familia.
First, you know, it's just being able to sort of wash your hands a bit and see. Oh, it wasn't really me. It was you know, I tried, you know, I don't think
it will. Yeah, yeah. You know, using this
Yeah, cuz I was gonna tell him that was gonna be better.
You're the messed up was. Now he didn't he weren't selling. Remember Ruth says Reuben and Judah. So Reuben just wanted to save him. Judah is the one who said suggest selling him and all of this is why ruins away. So there's, yeah.
There's two other brothers in the picture, Reuben and Judah. A pretty interesting story of moral decay. If you take if you take Rubens account, okay, he wants to do something good. But now he is reevaluating What good is. And he decides keeping this a secret, and not telling dad and not undoing this damage or going to go find what the caravan is and retrieving our brother, none of those are an option anymore. Right? And he sees his father grieving in front of him. And it's all those years later in Egypt, he says, See, I told you, you should have done this, right?
Yeah, but what are you Oh, that time is remaining. Right? What's really interesting is so if you recall right at the start,
the biblical story begins with this, these are the generations these, this is the lineage of Jacob. And I mentioned that
part of what that's telling us is that this is not just Joseph's story, this is Joseph and his brother story as well.
And that's why you get the use of what he what he is another really because
if you look at the story, I was being read by Christians and Jews, it absolutely became Joseph's story, right? This is Joseph story. The others are this is not as interesting, but the Quran wants to revive them. And so we I think as your as we said, the story need to bear in mind that it's not just use it for Islam, and what happens to him it's also the brothers and what happens to them that the Quran is saying is an ayah. Right? And,
and there's a zebra in it for for Australia, as it says at the end of the surah Allah, Allah. I this has been really cool. I think we are at the corresponding point in the story and Genesis where we are in our study of the surah in the Quran. So I'm going to cut the series of discussions short for now and move on to what the photo Qurans depiction of Egypt and the trial that's coming and I think probably I'll go to the point
Where the next, you know, location is the prison. So before we get to the prison portion of the story, I'll go to the add up leading up to the prison. And then we'll look at the comparative analysis from the biblical account and Charles does that go hand in both of you has been awesome and I think this is something that should continue and shout out
to them.