Should We All Be Getting Excited by Debates
Channel: Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari
File Size: 32.55MB
Episode Transcript ©
Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate and at times crude. We are considering building a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system. No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever.
Bismillah your Walkman you're walking. I'm
Manuel Rahim. Al hamdu lillah wa Salatu was Salam, ala Rasulillah word early, he was subhuman. Voila, we're back. Especially brothers and sisters, said, Omar Alikum warahmatu Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh.
I would like to ask you a question, what are you really excited by these days,
you could be excited by
food, you could be excited by a upcoming holiday. You could be getting married soon. You could be excited by that. You could be graduating soon, with some family event taking place. Or you might be excited about a football match that's taking place between Liverpool and Manchester City, for example. Or you might be excited by a boxing match between I don't really know who
is Habib and then just Joshua and who was you know, you might be excited by some. That's your entertainment. Different people like to get excited by different things. If you're a bit religious, and a bit more practicing,
bit connected to the
connected with Islamic knowledge, then maybe you're very excited by debates.
We are currently living in a time I feel that it is
a calamity. It's
it's a sad situation and calamity of the era. That the only excitement certain Muslims get from the deen. And for some people this is their only involvement when it comes to the this is the only involvement. So there might be some other involvement but it's a very brief type of involvement
is that they like to get embroiled embroiled and involved in controversies in polemics in debates, in reputations, culture reputations, in people arguing, this is the only buzz that some of our young people especially receive and obtain from Dean and from religion sadly.
And we are living in this current climate and this is why I thought I mentioned this
I seriously feel that we need to think where our priorities are. Here. First of all, I'm not really talking about the people who actually debate I am talking about me and you, the general public, the general masses,
first and foremost, that for us, our deen becomes so boring, praying fastings God, you know, fulfilling the rights of Allah and fulfilling the rights of his servants, serving the deen
doing beneficial positive things, spending time in the worship of Allah trying to recite the Quran and understand the Quran reading some books,
or attending lectures about
Islamic rulings. We think these things are boring, our excitement is with this is suddenly a nature human nature we get excited get the bus from argumentations, all these different
polym, polemical argumentations, and quarrels and fights and disputes that take place between all the various groups. And I don't even like to mention the names but like, you know, the Deobandi and the Bedelia and the Sufi under Salafi and Sharia and maturity, the never ending debates.
It seems that some of us are hooked on these quarrels. We thrive on it. You know, so many of us love the drama. It's like, a never ending soap opera. We're waiting for the next episode. Oh, who challenged who? People get excited. Oh, did you see that debate? I was in another country once in America, Canada. And people. The first thing they asking me, Oh, do you know in your country in England, did you see that debate? Or why do you know about that debate? I said there's more important things in Islam than who debates who I couldn't care less with who debates who. So we get excited by you know, this scholar, the chef challenging this person. The only discussion is about
oh, did you see that debate and who won the debate? It's like, you know, the entertainment we get from
a football match a football rivalry. You know, the Liverpool fans, Manchester, United fans, people, you know, this is the discussion that people do, but this is with a religious flavor. It's a boxing match. You know, people have their own sort of cults or their own rivalry and the old side, this is my shirt or my group. And it's a human nature. You know?
It's the nature of the human that you need to fulfill that aspect of your nature.
So, with religious flavor, it's the same type of enjoyment that people get from football rivalries or boxing matches. Sadly, many of us are less interested in day to day rules of Islam.
Have an arranger course, on the fifth of fasting, a handful of people write something about the prohibition of backbiting, or the benefits or reciting Salawat on the messenger, sallAllahu, alayhi wasallam or, you know, these aspects of the, even on social media, if we write and Facebook things about, you know, rights of Allah rights of the slaves of Allah. Very few people like the message or comment, just put one message about, oh, this group or this scholar or this reputation, and you've got tons of people commenting and debating and you know, giving the two pens to it.
Social media is a mass, it's filled with these controversies. No, it's sad that you know, sometimes there'll be one person, one scholar, or one person or one individual who will write a post about his reputation and argumentation with this group or that scholar. And there'd be so many people commenting, you know, some for some, again, some praising some hating, and then they start bickering amongst themselves as well underneath No, no, you're wrong, and you're on this. And it's just for two or three days, it's just like comments have to come into and I don't read this, but I know that this happens, it's just wastage of time. And then the other group, they will that other shareholder,
other group, he will also post a counter refutation and then all his fans. Yeah, all his followers, they will comment and there'll be for and against, and somebody will be undercover from here putting a comment there and there'll be somebody undercover from there. Putting the comment here, it's just never ending arguments, never ending soap opera that continues. And it's just a fitna of the time.
Seriously, we're really wasting our time with these things, and I would, this is my advice for the general public.
That's let's not get involved in these debates or these
these polemical refutation on argumentation and quarrels and disputes that take place.
value or time spend it in positive things in worshipping Allah getting close to Allah subhanaw taala getting close to Allah his Messenger sallallahu alayhi wa sallam learn your deen practice your deen offer your five time prayers you might be arguing and debating late night and then you don't offer just Allah in the morning in congregation, spend time in worshiping Allah bettering yourself as a Muslim as a human being good characteristics. This is not we don't even have enough time to work on ourselves, our hearts, our inner selves and be better people. We
need to spend more time on that don't waste time in being, you know, entertained by these religious rivalries. Really we need to look at this
you know, sometimes what happens that after these debates people continue common commentating on the debates and then there's like versions of who won the debate. There's there's a debate about who won the debate. So the group the followers of this show, or this group will say they want they will release a video that no we want our share one and then the swear and all sorts.
So this is my sincere advice
for general public at least don't do if you don't want to do all the positive things then at least don't do the negative thing Stop adding fuel to the fire. My I personally think that just do not watch these debates. If you start watching them the people who debating they'll stop doing the debates openly in front of the people because
they've got an audience. Some people just do the debates because they know they'll get more YouTube clicks. So more money you know they like to talk about controversial issues because they know that people are sensationalist. They like something which is controversial. You know, put a video YouTube video and say, share such and such exposed a massive cross one don't listen to share has become a Kafir. Oh yes, yeah, so many clicks. Or a YouTube video clip
of a Salah with who showed concentration Oh, boring Islam, offering Salah with concentration, exposed Barelvi coffee, Deobandi cafe, de Xiang, you know, and it's like, you know, everyone is entertained by it. And this is why there's an audience and I sincerely advise people that stop being an audience, stop being entertained, stop adding fuel to the fire, to the people who are debating and arguing, let them just debate and carry on. You don't need to get involved. And if you stop being involved, then they will stop doing it.
they'll probably do it in private because there's no audience. Right now when there's an audience,
then they will do it. When there's an audience for a sport, then people will charge amounts high amounts for tickets because they know people whatever happens they it's something that sells.
do not get involved in these debates. Don't talk about them, don't discuss them. You work on your own self, we should work on our own selves and busy ourselves with a bother with working on our own selves. We all have flaws, and in terms of religious matters, identify those who you trust and then your deen from them and get busy to action. Busy in Amman.
I remember I mean, this is more like a modern day issue. Because when you know when when I was young, when we were growing old, there was no social media. There's no like YouTube, there's no there's no way you can see debates. You might hear a debate somewhere that's happening in the 10th of June somewhere up in Scotland. So you know, people will send a letter or something and there might be an announcement or somebody told you and you know, you'll hire a coach to go down there or something. I don't know. I've never been to one. But that was the closest somebody could attend a debate.
Now it's like, click of a button on YouTube and everywhere. And so because of that the fitna is great. And we really need to seriously think where our priorities lie. This was my message just to the general public, all of us.
I also have a message for those people who debate who are actually involved in the debating.
People who like to debate about religious matters, about polemical matters about issues of opinion about different groups, Sufi Salafi, Deobandi Wahhabi Barelvi, whatever Shia or Sunni, whatever, whatever, different debates.
And a very respectfully, I will say, because many connected to and sacred knowledge, that we really need to think that is the real serious benefit in these debates. Have you really thought about whether there's more harm, or is there more benefit?
If the benefits outweigh the harms? Then maybe you should go and debate in front of the public. But have we really thought that
are the benefits outweighing the home? And I think even if there's a considerable amount of harm, then we should avoid it. But in this case, I personally feel that the harm is outweighing the benefit. The Quran prohibited alcohol with Muhammad Akbar Ramana ACHEMA even alcohol had a bit of benefit. The Quran says there's a bit of benefit in drinking wine, whiskey, Brandy alcohol, but I don't even know if Mahoma referring to
is gambling, right? Yes. AKA bottlemen Neferet Hema,
so a bit of benefit, but harm is much more the Quran prohibited.
So this is something that we seriously need to think. And this is why many scholars actually
they seriously reprimanded against or caution sorry, that's the word I'm looking for cautioned against religious debates, you might say. But there's a bit of debate in this party malleable. Hanifa debated non Muslims, even with non Muslim debating, there's a there's laws and etiquette and I dub smbd Arabica Bill Hikmah when more than hasna with wisdom call towards invite towards your Lord. But I'm not talking about non Muslims here. Muslims have different backgrounds, you have different opinion, or whatever, you know, appeal the issue.
So you people bring up that Oh, but didn't this share who this person in history didn't didn't? Didn't they debate they debated?
There's a massive difference. This is why one of the recent scholars of the subcontinent, one of the great scholars Hakeem and Omar Sheikh Madonna shuffle Italia, where I'm Hala, he's briefly wrote about debating because he looked at in his time, and this was like good, maybe 7080 years ago, more than 7080 100 years
ago. And he wrote, which the article is online, one of my friends known as shared longevity Cabal, he actually translated this. It's available online and I've got it here the harms of polemical debating in today's era.
It's taken from one of his books, but while there are no other
and he's, I won't read all of this, but he has, like he says, debating with respect to its objectives. So what's the objective of debating? Debating is a few types. And then he mentioned 1234. Just to summarize, he said the first situation or the first type in terms of the objective of debating to make evidence what is right so your objective is that you want to make what is
Correct and how you think it's the truth. You want to make that apparent and evident to the people.
Even if the opponent does not go quiet, in which case the debater will not concern himself with silencing him. So his he will not concern that whether that person is silenced or not, or you know, you want the debate or not, that's not his objective.
Therefore, when you see when this person sees that other person is stubborn, then he just says look for us are our deeds for you or your deeds looking to you know, Cambodia
and you just move away and the Quran is filled with this type of debate.
And this is why chef, Mo Allah He actually he called this he said Al Munna Farah and muda Muda. Awful Munna. Munna for like showing resentment or dislike nephila dislike towards
the moon Azam in Arabic You called debating Munna Allah, so the Moto Ara for monada, the common Managua that takes place. And then he says that he goes to the second type,
to silence the opponent, this is also praiseworthy, provided the intention is good. However, this is dependent on the opponent becoming silent. If he's stubborn, or a troublemaker, and does not have any shame, he will not be quiet. So therefore he will not be silenced. So this is like it's not going to work. So therefore intending this objective is to intend something which you have no power over. And therefore this is something you know, it's not going to happen. So even this debate type of debate is out of the question. And then he mentioned the third one that to silence the opponent. And then this is actually achieved, however, because Because becoming silence is not proof that this
person who is totally silence is wrong. This is also a futile waste trying to say, and it's actually a very important point because, you know, one of the problems with debating is that people think the victory is based on who spoke well, you know, when two people are debating one person speaks well, it doesn't mean that he speaks well that he is on the truth. People will make the decision based on you know, some people have the gift of the gods they are able to speak you could have a non Muslim winning or debating in some Muslim because he spoke well he's just knows how to converse. Very well spoken. There's a hadith of the messenger salAllahu alayhi salam you know, once he gave a decision I
can't recall exactly in favor of somebody and then he said look, when you come to me, you know, you speak the way you speak sometimes apparently, so the audience will look at who's speaking well.
So anyway, he mentioned these four you can read on we can put the link inshallah at the bottom of the video that there is really no benefit of debating in our times. And he also said the way debates are conducted today is not from the way of the self. The Quran debates with the disbelievers in many places, but its style is amazing. It is nothing like the noisy quarrels of today. How can you Malama says in today's era debating is extremely harmful because it has no praiseworthy objective behind it. The objective is predominantly to disgrace the opponent and show one's own point to be superior. The objective is not to establish truth. So this is why
in this day and age, you know, there's
the harms outweigh the benefits. And seriously, you know, like I said,
in Arabic debating is called Munna. Ardara one of my teachers moved to duck with money half of the whole lot. I heard this from him in one of the lessons that he mentioned this and he's actually written about this as well. He says Menara is from the Arabic word another.
nother means to study something to look into something. And in Arabic Menara is Babu far either when two people collectively two people al Mushara al Musharaka, Phil fricative, another two people are participating. So it's not it's like a dialogue. It's like a discussion. It's supposed to be if it's a monada rather than monada means okay, this is your opinion this is mine. Okay. So when you say this I have an objection each call on this that what about this delete that counters this? The other person says yeah, that delete but my understanding of that deal is that maybe this count is done. Really? What do you think it's like a nice cordial discussion. If you look at today's debates
absolutely country especially looking look at some of the debates don't look at but you know, some of the debates on subcontinent just type the word Muladhara on YouTube, and seriously, you some of the craziest debates, so called debates that take place in the Indian subcontinent specially in Pakistan, but maybe in India and Bangladesh as well, where people are raising their voices, quarreling, shouting
pulling books, you know, give me Sahil Buhari, you know, this, this text and this evidence and I've seen places where people are actually ripped pages from books.
And there's places where there's physical violence. Where's the justification for that? craziness, absolute craziness. Where are the etiquettes the man has an odd job of conversing with anyone.
One of the etiquette is do not cut someone else in the midst of the conversation. Well, Dr. Karim Reedman wa Salam o shahada photographer.
You this has to be applied even in a debate when someone speaking you can't cut up that person.
The messenger SallAllahu Ellison said letter for our swatter condition the Quran has one letter for letter of ours welcome focus of the newbie but generally, his sera was let me consider Harbin shouting, screaming quarreling.
These advocates are not observed talking over each other fighting pulling up books name calling, calling each other Jah Hill and ignorant and faster can you know, the problem is that it becomes more personal and ego based. It's invoked by ego. You know the person who's debating because we all humans when you're in debating majority of the time and I'm not trying to
question anyone's intention, but it seems apparently all these debates, that it's more personal. The person feels that I shouldn't be disrespected, or I shouldn't be looked down upon. More concerned about personal victory.
So it's not about the truth being manifest. Look, I'll tell you, these are some quotes look, Imam Shafi Radi Allahu Anhu and while
it is related from Imam Mohammed, Bin Idris A Sheree Rahim Allah, He says there's many quotes from him but I'll just read one or two quotes. He says McCullom to ahead and to Allah wa salam Moberly the UN Allahu Akbar Allah Allah Sandhi Allah Allah Sani Hola, Sunni. I never spoke or had a dialogue with anyone except that I don't care Allah brings a truth on my tongue on his tongue doesn't really matter. So the objective is for the truth to come out. This is an olfactory home with a
look at this quote.
Imam chef and he says, Man, I voted to go ahead and cut to Allah. But I've never debated anyone to have a victory.
never debated anyone to have a victory.
My novel too, I had an
idea. I've never debated anyone. It's not even debate dialogue. And I wanted that person to be in mistaken era.
And there's another quote which I heard from multiple with money directly in one of his lessons, but I couldn't recall the reference when I searched for it. He said Imam Shafi Rahim, Allah said, Man are versatile headed. When you know, Ill I never debated anyone, except that I wanted the truth to come on his tongue. I wanted him to be victorious and me to lose. Because the objective is, because I'm scared about myself that if I win, and what about if I'm wrong, then people will follow me. So I want me to be proven wrong. So that then okay, the evidence is off to his side. And then he's actually on the truth. And then at least people follow him and he takes responsibility. This was the
debate. These were the type of debates or discussions and dialogues. The sell off. Did this anybody buddy go in a debate today? That yeah, I don't care whether I lose a winner. Just you know, with sincerity. It's ego based.
It's about personal victory. It's about like, you know, I don't want to be disrespected, you know, my knowledge people should see you know, I can talk I can challenge and I have all the knowledge I have this book on this read that book and it's no that's how it comes across.
So anyway, concluding
this is this. Yeah. So I was saying that I'm fed up with Manny Harvey, the hola he mentioned in that the word monada is like Mushara. It's just a mutual dialogue. It's, it's like a discussion that we do. And this is a quote from one of his books with the duck with money says due to our misfortune, the impression we have of debates these days, is that it refers to a sectarian battleground where too headstrong wrestlers sees every just an unjust tactic. So you use any just or unjust tactic to try and bring down the other person. And in the middle of all of this, the urge to seek the truth is left behind and suppressed. Then he says move to the truth money heavy the whole La monada is an
heard the meaning of which is to collectively ponder over a particular issue, have a cup of coffee and have a discussion. Just collectively, let's just study it, no problem. So that's the real monada Or debate or dialogue or discussion.
So this is why
debating these days, seriously, there's more harm than benefit. Because it's become personal ego based, the etiquettes of conversing are overlooked. The adab are not observed, the manners of interaction are not observed. And sometimes, you know, I've seen also, people do some things which are unlawful, like swearing slandering and talking, but I've even seen some people recording phone calls without telling the other person that you're recording the phone phone conversation, it's not even allowed and then putting it up on YouTube.
I've seen this so many times, even in the subcontinent where this wh Jamar people they arguing and debating and you know, so they they provoke people call certain scholars, salam ala kalangala, I am brother to such and such, I need to ask you a masala question. And then he's recording and just, you know, trying to you know, subhanAllah like creating fitna it's like, you know, you've got some mental health issue or what like, you know, it's just,
you know, they just want friction, or some like, you know, people want to just fight and Quarrel and bring fitna into the world.
So, this is not allowed language used, sometimes it's haram language
is used. Sometimes people say, but looking at those people, they're doing this or why don't you do that? Well, two wrongs don't make a right. If someone who is debating using foul language of somebody's refuting you or your group or your teachers or your scholars, swearing slandering, you don't have to get low to that level. This was the way of the all the prophets they will call Majnoon they used to say, you know, I'm not much known. Oh my people.
What's the I have the Quran? Lisa B. Safar Hutton wala Kimura Zulu Mirabella Allah mean, the people of the prophets they used to say your Majnoon or your days and they never responded with swearing, they just say look, this is how it is. And you know, and a story our son of same thing. There was a scholar from the subcontinent who somebody called him that you're an illegitimate child, he said all actually you've got misinformation. My father and mother they were married and witnesses are still alive, I can take you to them and see them and meet them. So you can you know, just find out for yourself if I'm illegitimate, illegitimate child, rather than say, No, you you and your dad is also
legitimate, legit. This is how people out of anger would do all the prophets. This is how the Dawa was
so you can refute sorry, you can respond but responding according to your way not according to their way
so anyway, concluding these debates that take place the most of them turn out to be disasters.
You know, probably you've seen India Pakistan, wherever England wherever they take place. Mostly. They involved haram activities, because there's quarreling, shouting, raising of voices to suspecting hurting the feelings of others. Or because all these rules they are necessary to follow whether you're in a marketplace, or whether you're having a religious debate, it doesn't mean that Hera those things no longer become necessary or they're no longer haram and unlawful when you're having a religious dialogue. So because of that, and most of the most of the time, they turn out to be disasters. Nobody really wins. Nobody really.
The truth is never manifest. The people on this group will always stay on this group. The people on this group will always stay on this group. No one gets convinced by anybody. This is why these things should not be in the public. Scholars should privately behind closed doors have a discussion if you really want the truth for your own selves.
lots of haram, things take place I heard sometimes some people bring some violent thugs with them as well, can become violent. You know, it's crazy. And this is why mimetic Rahimullah what are the animals used to say, a mirror or usable neural
argumentation, about matters of religion can take away the light of ailment, the light of knowledge?
You know, I know a few scholars, and I've remembered one Chefman MINOURA had not ammonia Rahim Allah used to before debate certain groups towards end of his life. He actually said that I really regret and I lament the fact that I spent so much of my time just debating and arguing with people from different groups. I wish I spend my time and just doing something else. And then he's, he stopped doing that. And he started writing his famous commentary called my article, Hadith in many volumes. So when people are young, this happens to them. And that's why I personally feel that those of you who want to debate
either, you know, I feel that it's better that they should be
disgust number one behind closed doors, a nice discussion dialogue behind closed doors, the public don't need to see it, or do it in written format because only the intelligent people read because nowadays that's a problem. Everyone views videos when nobody reads. So people who are really interested academically writer academic response, that's how people used to do write a book, write an article with in an academic way. So it's not for the public, there's no drama, this is not like arena, this is not a boxing match. This is not Wembley Stadium, or whatever. So it's not a wrestling ground or a battleground. It's just an academic response. And as a last resort, maybe post a
reputation in video format, rather than sitting together and you know, having a disaster, okay, if you disagree with somebody, their views, you post a video, that this is our view, but again, making sure ensuring all the basic rules and etiquette are observed. No slandering, no swearing, no looking down upon who knows the other person is better than this is how we do Dawa. We always feel that a person better than me. So with humility, that you know, I did I disagree with this view of yours, but you you feel inside, that other person is better than you some of the scholars who say that I feel every Muslim is better than me, and every non Muslim is potentially better than me, the way you
coming as a, you know, constantly, you know,
what's a word like, you know,
Condescending fashion is like when we talking debating, we feel we're better than that person, it just appears in a religious flavor with you, we're better.
So with with humility, post a video.
So these are the three ways we're three alternatives to debates. And this is an absolute last point, that
when we do these debates,
the majority of the general public, like I said, they just love the entertainment value to it. But what will happen, they will either be of the following four, very quickly. Number one, those that don't really understand what's going on, they don't even understand the words and Arabic terms you're using, etc. All the integrated issues. They just enjoy, and entertainment and have fun and get involved in Haram because they're swearing slandering, taking sides, rather than go and watch a football match. So or just go play some football, play some tennis, it's better if you're going to do haram here. So majority of them don't really even understand what's going on. So the your public
audience will be of four types of people, those who don't really understand anything, they just loved entertainment and get involved and start discussing and wasting their time and maybe do haram activities as well by swearing slandering.
Number two, those that get even more confused, confused than they were before. They will you know, nicely praying or doing something but after the debate not really like confused. So you just cause them confusion. Number three, those that just laugh at both parties and think both are fools.
majority do that. They just think these like more losers fighting. You know, Mala Chatelier Allah mentions Kim Aloma that in the subcontinent, the Hindus, they were so entertained by some movies who are debating that they used to say let's go to the place this was mentioned. I'll read the quote as well. It says here, that on the day of the debate in Moradabad, hockeyville, Omar says there was so much noise about the debate that even the Hindus were saying, let's go to the shall he mosque to see them always fighting.
The Hindus came to see the entertainment.
So those that just laugh at both parties. And number four, and this is really serious, those that actually start doubting Islam itself. A few years ago, an individual told me that he left Islam or he was close to the face leave Islam and I think he said he left Islam. Because he got so confused by all the bickering and fighting he saw between different groups and this group, fighting with this group and this scholar refuting that scholar. He said, I went there. Then I came back to this side and I went back there, I thought this was right. And then I thought, You know what, it's just too confusing. And he became an atheist in
general. So these are the four scenarios or four possibilities of your audience. Rather than that, don't do your debates in front of the public, have a private dialogue, or the other methods if somebody is openly refuting your views or your scholars or whatever, then you can openly send me do a reputation video but again, you don't have to stoop down to the level. Follow the prophetic way of Hekima of wisdom of good preaching. No editor has an HID eye and guidance in the hands of Allah we don't have to like preach in a way that we have to
turn everyone's minds to be like our mind or our we do it for the sake of Allah. Reward you can get a reward
by doing something else the idea is not everyone has to be swayed you don't have to turn any everyone you do whatever you can have the life happens if it happens if it doesn't happen you've got your reward you're gonna inshallah anyway
Hey Allah grant us at all futures Salaam Alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh