Shia vs Sunni on Imamah in Quran

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Mohammed Hijab

Channel: Mohammed Hijab

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Okay, this aim today is really another attempt to engage with the Shia community. Now, I've done this before with with a group, another group. And I believe that when I was trying to present a case for Satanism, although I put my points across and handle, I think I did that as best as I could. I feel like I didn't do it in the best way. So the first thing I want to do is to the sheer community, I want to apologize I want to apologize if I came across as aggressive. Because Allah subhanaw taala says to His prophet will acquit the father and Khalid Al Habib, and fundamentally, if you are very harsh with them, they would have run away from you. So, hey, if any shiai has watched that

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particular debate or anything like it, I want to first and foremost, apologize if I came across as condescending is only because it's very, like there was certain context behind what happened. Today we're talking about his amendment and the 14th amendment is a central concept in CIA so it's actually I would consider it the one of the main differences if not the main difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam. My interlocutor today is going to try and show me as he's promised to do and in fact, this was his idea where in the Quran, there is an indication of the amendment. Now what is the mmm amendment is the idea that there are 12 men all of them are infallible that came after the

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Prophet Mohammed starting with Allium Naboo, Pilate, and ending with Mohammed Hassan lasqueti. These are 12 individuals 12 individuals who, as we say, are infallible individuals who, who have a very high status, if not higher than the prophets, except for the Prophet Muhammad says hello. And I thought this, we would say as soon as where's the evidence for him? So this was the challenge I put to my interlocutor. He said, yes, there is indication of it. Even in the Quran. We don't even need to go to the Hadith. He wants to focus specifically and only on the Quran. So I will leave it to him today to give me his best shot.

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as to where in the Quran is actually mentioned, I want an unambiguous verse, clearly indicating this particular type of enamel, which is the Shiite conception 12 imams all infallible, and I'll leave it to him. Thank you.

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inshallah.

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inshallah, today, I'm going to be defending

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the side of proving the, the mama to the concept of the mom and the Koran. And I'd like to put forward what I am going to actually say in this discussion. I'm first i'm not i'm not trying to prove that the mama is 12. Today, I am not trying to prove that it's awesome or for for a dean, I am not trying to prove the numbers. In other words, I'm here to prove fuck up, as they say in Arabic. I'm only here to prove that in the Quran, there is a mama. That's not like the Nobu. That's not like anything else. No, there's a divine designation to the sea Mama. And I'm going to put forward in Sharla, the concept I believe in and the moment

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as the first thing I'd like to refer to.

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Yeah, so I'm not I'm also not going to speak about the application of this concept. Like who are the individuals? No, that's not going to be my discussion to the um, as they say, I'm only here to discuss the the Mama, I'm going to go I'm going to start my discussion like this, I'm first going to

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search the literal and the Quranic meaning of the word Imam as the first discussion, then I'm going to go to the literature on the Quranic meaning of the word JAL, which means you can say action, or, you know, there's other there's other translations for it. The third thing is going to be that there is a position called the moment the Quran because some people even denied that. The fourth one is going to be that this Imam does, I'm gonna, I'm going to try to prove that the Quran has characteristics. So what are these characteristics? These are my four main points in this debate.

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So I'm going to set the first five minutes. Okay. So

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first of all, I'd like to say, I'm going to speak about the word of Mr. Ma. What does that mean? Look, the word mama has a literal meaning that everybody understands, which means to lead a man or you can say a leader, this leader could be a man could be a human being, or could be what could be even something that's, you know, that doesn't, doesn't have like, for example, a book, a book can be the leader as well. Regardless whether it's bad or good, you know, that's, that's not in the definition of a mama. Second thing, we'll come to the Quranic meaning of the word, the mama, the What does the Quran have to say? No, hold on. There's several meanings of the mama. One of the

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meanings is a role model, or an example. So in sort of for fun, verse 74, he says, and those who see how a Lord grant us from among our wives and offspring comfort to our eyes, and make us an example for the righteous well, john Allen mattina Emma

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As the first example for the word imamo, the first meaning, the second mean is going to be the book. Is that five minutes? I've got five minutes

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Okay, sorry. Yeah.

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Second thing is going to be sorry second meanings, the book. So we can say, and the ayah says,

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Yeah, indeed it is, it is we who bring the dead to life and record what they have put forth and what they left behind. And all things we have enumerated in a clear register, or register what book that's

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sort of referred to in the Quran as Emma. That's not the that's not the meaning I'm referring to today. The first two meanings are not of my interest today. But the third meaning is of my interest. The third meaning is a divinely appointed authority on all matters of faith and law in the Muslim community, or Muslim community that Sanibel

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Oh, and that's mentioned in the Quran in the same moment, which means will I add to that that was mentioned in the Koran, oh, you have believed availa and obey the messenger and those in authority among you, and if you disagree over anything refer to Allah and messenger till the end of the I. So this meaning of the mama, that I am trying to prove today, as mentioned also in a different way as well sort of Baccarat I want to fool and mention of Mohammed, sorry, and oh, Mohammed. When, when, when Abraham was tried by his Lord with COVID commands and he fulfilled them. Allah said, Indeed, I will make you a leader for people. Abraham said and of my descendants, Allah said, My covenant

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promise does not include the wrongdoers.

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That's the meaning that I'm going to try to prove today.

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And also, I'd like to add another thing I'm trying to prove, I'm trying to discern I'm trying to discuss today and prove the mama that was mentioned simultaneously with the word dad that was mentioned only three times in the Quran, as far as you know, my research. So basically, we've got the word Adele Jad, we're going to come to the word Jad as we just described the word of Mama Mama lobotomy Mama. Phil Castilla has a say in Arabic, so basically, I mean, the Quranic meaning and the literal meaning. So basically the word I'm going to come to this translation, the word of jell o say it's an action, okay, as it says, fail. Okay, fail. Come out of economics, as it was mentioned in

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the dictionaries. So this word JAL, and the Koran that's the literal meaning of is just Yeah, like fill in the Quran, it came into two different meanings. There's, so we can say the divine action because in the Quran, Allah speaking so he's the saint. He's the one at St. JOHN. He's the person that St. JOHN. So these two jobs we have a knock on. The janitor, Sheree, Angelica, Queenie, this has nothing to do with the will it Queenie and will it surely there are two different things. jellyfish, the Angelica Queen, a jellyfish really, the transition for that is going to be the divine designation, and then we got the divine formation. Okay, so I'm gonna explain what the divine

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formation is with this applications and then the divine designation with its applications. So first, the divine formation you can see it was mentioned like the examples of it. It only relates to the materialistic things. That's the divine formation. So for example, Allah says, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah, Russia, he who made for you the earth, a bed spread out and the sky a ceiling. So over here, he uses the word made Java, what does he mean by that? He created like that he wanted it to be like that. That's the materialistic side of the job, which is the designation or sorry, the action of doing the second thing. The second example will be Alhamdulillah. Allah, Allah subhanaw taala.

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Walmart will know.

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All praise, okay?

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No, it's going off. Okay, the second example is going to be Alhamdulilah the hell of a smart watch. alguna moto? No, which means a lot of praise and due to the yoga, yeah, so that's the second designation Yeah, sorry.

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As you can see, Mashallah is very well acquainted with Arabic language, and hamdulillah. got someone from mainstreams Shiite population, which is different to the previous debate, which to be fair to the Shia community wasn't representative of the mainstream. I know from humility, he doesn't want to meet to say this, but really, he was someone who is very well established in the Shia community,

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and very respected.

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Now let's get straight into it.

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I want to say to you this, that when it comes to Islam, the basic tenets of Islam

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slam the Pillars of Islam. We have something called Hadith Jabri, which is very, very well known. It's narrated by Ahmed la top, where the Prophet was asked what is Islam? So he says that Islam and then he quoted Shatta Wale and alarm hundreds of Allah and he quoted the five pillars of Islam, the Shahada, the Salah, the prayers, etc.

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He was asked and was a man so and took me below him alacrity or to be heroes learn to believe in Allah and His main angels and his books, etc. Yeah, and there are six of those pillars of email.

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If you look at the CIA books, you'll find that there's a very simple integration but with one notable exemption, you'll find in the book narrated by a back of one of the Imams one of the demons. He was asked what is

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what is basically Islam? So he said

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munia Islam, Allah Hamza dsgn. Yeah, he says that Islam was built upon five things, a Salah prayer, while CME, and fasting was the car and giving the care which is charity, what had Hajj and then the five things we lay, what is really, really is almost interchangeable with the word mm hmm is the idea that there are 12 different, infallible

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entities who are, as we've said, according to the hadith of Aurora, which is an caffi, higher than the prophets, the higher than the prophets, except for the Prophet Mohammed satellites, and this is the Shiite belief. My simple question is this. And I've repeated this question once, but I'll repeat it again.

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Can we have one example from the Quranic discourse from the Quran, mean Fattah Al Khattab? illa hardmetal Khattab from the Fatiha Illa sort of ness, where we actually find that this Imam which is an awesome and also the dean, which is arcada, which is what Islam is meant to be built upon. And in fact, as berker when asked this question, he said, in fact, wilayah wilayah is more important than everything else is more important than the rest of the five pillars. If it's so important. My question is, where is it to be found in the Quran? Obviously, today you is Pamela You're the one who actually came to me and said, let's just focus on the Quran. So let's just focus first and foremost

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on the Quran. If you ask me to prove any of the candle hunter of the five pillars of Islam from the Quran, easy if you asked me to prove any of the six pillars of Eman from the Quran, very easy. Now I'm just telling you to give me one unequivocal, one unambiguous verse, which is to be found in the Quran. From the beginning to the end of the Quran, which References This idea that we are meant to follow the events and commands us to follow the events in a similar way as it commands us to follow the prophets and this is a very simple proposition for me. I don't want to overcomplicate it you see what you said was right in the Quran.

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The when we talk about usage of the word Imam and sorbitol, hedger and so little lol who sort of hood and insulated yes seen yes the word mm means book. And so the till such the is referred to as just leaders generally, or dynamin. Whom I imagine. I do not be under nella masamoto we're talking about Bani Israel. We have made them in maps. So you can have a good mm and you can have a buddy man because it's a little process it also says, well john, I'm in Houma, Imagineer down a line of installation costs chapter 28 of the Quran. And you can have any meme which you have to fight as as mentioned in Sultan Toba

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for Cthulhu, a method so find the IMA of the Imams of COVID. So the Quranic usage of the word Imam is generic, it just literally means either one of three things, either means it's a leader, any leader, or number two, we have a means a book, or coalition aside. Now if you could have been moving and sorted and sorted till you see in chapter six of the Koran, or it could mean something like a pathway. This is the three things the three meanings Imam comes with in the Quran. We don't disagree with these three meanings. I'm saying how do you extrapolate from this? The idea that you have 12 men I'm not saying necessarily the word 12. But just the idea, we have to follow these inflatables.

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I said I prefer my hammock. Can you give us a verse, Saracen.

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I'm not going to speak about visit awesome.

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So I'm gonna ask you again not to refer to this topic. Secondly,

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I sit down i didn't i didn't see is it explicit? Or was it not explicit? Please argue, please try to review my arguments. I'm not speaking was explicit was not explicit, please like you know, be

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be accurate with your, with your misconceptions that you're throwing towards me right now. And third of all, you mentioned three meanings in the Quran, three meanings of the mama, and I still didn't finish and that's why I didn't

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Today, in fact, I gave you a better help by doing the difference by, you know, differentiating between the two jobs that we said. So we've got the gelita, Queen, and we've got the jala, tertiary, and we brought examples to both of the jobs. Yeah.

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Sorry, we didn't bring the examples for the second job, which is the divine designation. I'm going to come to the Chicago that you threw, you said that, and I made that claim the literal meaning of the of the word imama. It doesn't mean it can it can mean the leader of the battle leader of the good, I made that clear in the beginning, and that's the literal mean, and the example that you brought in the Quran with Jana

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Jana Minami. matenadaran, Elena cosas. Yeah, well, gentlemen who attended or not? Yeah, I agree. That's the literal meaning of it. And who said That's the meaning I'm referring to right now I'm referring to the divine designation, it doesn't make sense for Allah subhanaw taala to divinely designate, and metalla not, it has no meaning. So definitely, you're speaking about which jello is speaking about the other one, which is the widget which is the, the the divine formation, not the divine designation, because only if you don't believe in Allah, and that's something related to you. So according to the divine designation, what's the examples of the Divine designation basically,

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what what we mean by divine designation, were referring to the non materialistic

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choice we can say Oh, selection. So basically, you know, when when Allah subhanaw taala, says jalna goes up when Allah says, Allah subhanaw taala says, Jalla wa jal Allahu capital beta, how long? Allah has made the cabinet, the sacred house, standing for the people jalaun Capital beta, how long tm and in us standing for the people, if you look at us not materialistic position, is it? It's not materialistic. And that's a different type of jet. So when you know it's not materialistic, and Allah makes in a particular way, you know that Allah wants it to be that way. So we can see that this is a divine designation. And what does divine designation mean? That means this whole position

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of humanity that we're speaking about is divinely designated. So is there more into it? Yes, there is more into it, you're gonna have to wait for me. So that's the divine designation. Now, after differentiating between the two types of desert, the divine actions, the divine designation and the divine formation, we're going to come to other verses, we're going to come to discuss the verse, subject of matter and I think we're gonna I don't know how long we're gonna stay in this but we're gonna stay as long as you know, stay in as long as it takes. way the Tesla Model boo boo, Kenny Merton, Mona Paula in New Jersey, locally nasty Mama, all a woman's re call Allah and Allah.

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And I previously mentioned the transition of it. So I'm Sharla. When I do this to learn, I'm going to translate the verses that I need. I want to prove in this verse five things from this verse and other verses together, but this is going to be my main bus. The mama is a position different than the position of Nepal. That's the first thing. The second thing that you mama is divinely designated. And I think I already proved I'm not gonna bother doing it again, only Ramadoss me, and I think you will. The third thing is going to be the mom has the only hedaya and guidance that deserves to be followed. I'm also going to bring up

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the fourth thing that a mom has to be infallible. And that's something I know you know, this is crazy believing. I know most people think that the fifth thing is going to be that the position of a mama is a continuum is a continuous position. It's not ended and zemon the viola hemo and the erosion of your love life. These five things are going to be my subject of discussion. You can read it It continues when you stop cheating okay.

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The first thing is that a mom has a different position than the prophethood what's the evidence well that was clear because in the viola him in the eye he's meant that we previously mentioned that I What does it say it says and mentioned on Mohammed whenever Abraham was tried was loaded with with commands and he fulfilled them. Allah said Indu Tao will make you a leader for the people. Okay, make you a leader for the people. What is it? What is it blind, say Elisa, and my descendants? So this is a question. Everybody knows when Nebbiolo blah him, I think the time is finishing. Okay, no reason shall I'll, I'll leave that to the next five minutes from me. But please stick to the topic.

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So I think you tried to answer my question.

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You tried to answer my question by saying that there's a divine non materialistic selection of the Imam and this is to be found in the Quran. I'm trying to follow what you're saying. Yeah. So what is what you're saying is that there isn't a Salafi understanding of mmm yeah, it's the law meaning terminological Yeah. So generally speaking in in Islamic sciences, you have to understand that you have a linguistic understanding and you have a terminological analysis.

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timing. The terminological understanding of a particular word depends upon the scholars of that particular. Whatever particular field decided, yeah. Now the terminological he's saying is a terminological definition of the word. Mm. Which in his mind, obviously from a Shiite perspective is that you have, forget about the number you have a set amount of people because we know that the 12 imams are is a number which is completely arbitrary. The difference of opinion within Shere Khan is as to how many members are on the katai, as I mentioned before and debate, believe that there are 70 memes, the smiley say there is a there is a decider for and so there's nothing really completely

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special about the number talk. But he is saying that there is a designation of, of a particular number of imams after the prophets deaths, and that these individuals are worthy of following and they have to be followed. My my question to him initially was, let's find any verse in the Quran, which indicates that after the Prophet's death, there will be men. However, number However, if you don't like the number 12 let's just say any set number of men, that these men we have to follow, and if we don't follow them, we will be in so much trouble that according to him afraid will be too far. I know that you don't believe by the way I'm not saying that you believe that?

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I have because I know you I know you. I know you I have conversations with them in the park, I know him. I know that you don't believe that the mainstream Sydney's Aqua Faria. Some obviously like our feed, will feed is one of the major scholars of Shia Islam doesn't believe that we can give we anyways the point in his books, he's got different books on here, but he does say whoever rejects men, men, men, men, unkar admin, Emma, taka cafaro, jihad or something like this, whoever, whoever disbelieves are one of the Imams that he has become Katherine, I understand that the majority a lot of she I will say that this this tech fear or this kind of excommunication of the general Sunni

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Muslims will apply in the hereafter not in this world. I understand that. But generally speaking, that is to say that most of the Muslim Sunni Muslims will not be Muslims in the hereafter. They're not Muslims in Iraq. They're disbelievers if they have been exposed to the mammal concept, if something is so severe is this I'm just saying, Where is the evidence for it in the Quran, it has to be clear, unambiguous evidence. That's all I'm asking for clear, unambiguous evidence to suggest that there are some human beings are going to come after the Prophet Mohammed that we have to follow, and that if we don't follow there will be a problem. And that problem will be that we will

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be led to hellfire. Now his terminological definition of a mama which is based on basically she I scholarly works is answered what my argument is is unsubstantiated by the Quranic discourse. The Quran has come with three linguistic understandings of what the word human means. One of them is both one of them is a road to certain place as in sort of less raw, and one of the and the other one is leader, or janela. matakana was mentioned total for Kant who can be in amps on God make us of the Imams. So the word Imam here what he's talking about Ibrahim in chapter two verse 124, weatherbeeta hemara boo boo Kalamata Vita Mona Carla in the Jacqueline se, Mr. Holloman dorotea Kala lane, Allah

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has a volume in this verse in chapter two verse 124, is talking about Abraham being a leader. Now he said that there's four things he wants to prove. He wants to prove from this verse. He wants to extrapolate how long you have left.

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Good. He wants to extrapolate from this verse that this proves his concepts or his terminological understandings of Enigma, first of all, notice how it doesn't mention any of the names of the Imams that they follow. Ali Hassan Hussein and from the from her saying none of this noise is talking about Ibrahim so if I say okay, I agree with you a member does it just for the sake of argument say look your concept of a member does it make sense but I'll only apply it specifically to Abraham is hot on Yahoo but the three individuals are prophets are mentioned as Imams, no Quran.

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So where is the evidence that your men that you call a memes in the infallible sense are immense. This is what we're talking about. Now. He's gonna say, omens reality and from my progeny, kala in a larger volume, it says that the my covenant doesn't go to the volume. He's gonna say that this is going to be an indication of fallibility or infallibility. I'm going to ask him a very simple question is every non volume anyone who is non oppressive?

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infallible? Does that make sense? What about Fatima Zahra? Was she not from the Zarya? Was she not from the progeny of Ibrahim? And if that is the case, will she not unimin? And she wasn't in mm, why is she not anywhere? There's many people that were from the progeny of Abraham which one not events? So how do you answer these questions?

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Sorry.

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Thank you, you know, thank you a lot for that because I'm gonna tell you why you went off topic. You again asked me to say why is it not explicit or why is it explicit? I told you that I am not discussing this today. Like the only discussion that I felt as a proper question is the last one you asked about the project.

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And about the that's the only appropriate question to be honest. I'm sorry for that. But yeah, so basically,

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yeah. You said there's nothing special about the 12. You know, added? I say there is, but that's going to be in a different discussion. Okay. Yeah, as well. So basically, going off topic, again, is something that I didn't want, but it's only going to save me time to carry on my was a code my evidence. So I'm going to answer the last question. I'll leave it to the to the end of my discussion after proving the differences. So I said that there's five,

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five things I want to prove. Right. So the first thing as I put forward

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Yeah, as I put forward and full

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Yeah, it's so different position than the position of the prophecy. How do we know that? All is clear? As we said in the Quran?

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Nebula when did when did he when did his wife give birth, his mind and his heart? It was late, who was after his prophecy, where Johnny was sorry.

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Think of God. Anyways, I think it's well known and it's accepted amongst Shay Hanson. Then a viola Brahim la sala. He, he got he got son in old age, he wasn't young.

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That's part of it. That's part of him speaking. Yeah. It was mentioned a couple of times in the call. So yeah, that's, that's, that's the first thing so we know that he's not speaking about the prophecy. Because the he's already a prophet. That's the first meaning we can exclude which is the prophecy. The second meaning is going to be a leader. Or honestly, when he's a prophet isn't nearly though.

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Come on, guys. He's a leader. He's a leader. Yeah, he's a leader at the end of the whether tele Rama boo. So that can't be the meaning he's referring to and the leader is the is the literal and the linguistic meaning as Mohammed referred to, so we definitely can't mean that. And can you mean the third meaning, which is the Kitab? As you mentioned, so blind becomes a Kitab? I don't know if I don't know if any Robin stands up? And if they do, let me know. Yeah, so that so definitely is referring to a third meaning different than the meaning that we're speaking about. And as I said, don't refer to any hobbies. We're gonna stick to the origin gonna refer to the hotties who will have

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a long discussion over the inshallah I'm sure we're gonna have that discussion with you or with others.

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So the second thing that I was trying to prove, is the Imam is, is divinely designated. And we made that clear by differentiating between the two different,

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you know, actions, we said that the divine actions are divine designations and divine formations. So this is specific, I only can mean the divine designation. Grace doesn't it's not materialistic. Is it? Is the position materialistic? No. So we know that Allah wants this position to be a logline. After knowing that Allah wants it. We're gonna go to the third thing that the Imam has the has the only hedaya which means guidance that deserves to be followed. How do we know that? Well, it's also clear if we look at the Quran, you know, by collecting all this ayah together, we can say the ayah

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Yeah, the ISS and we made from among them leaders guiding by our command, it uses the word guiding, which means Jana imagine, you don't want to be a marina. So one of the characteristics is the guidance. And then we asked the Quran and so we don't ask anything else for the time being. Okay. Although I do believe in the Hadith, I do believe that you do have to read the headings. I'm not against that. But today is not our discussion. Yeah, that needs to be clear, because apparently some people do to clear on that as well. Yeah, and we Yeah, so I'm going to stick to the idea the high over here says the divine Yeah, this is cool. Hello, Michelle. Okay community and hopefully, it'll

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help. fm and DLL help help one YouTuber, Emelia hit the LAN Yoda. Okay, the transition of it, the poll that I want to use, so is so is he who guides to the truth more needs to be followed? Or he who guides Not unless he is guided? Who's more likely to follow definitely the first one. And who's the first one, who's the one that's on staking, who's the one that doesn't need guidance was clear as to be in a federal being or else well, what does it mean by saying that don't follow or don't follow the person that needs guidance? Okay, the forum makes it clear. So we say that because in the I previously mentioned, which are no minimum and metalia Marina

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my money I don't know be empty now. Either verse. It says Leah to have one was it?

00:29:38--> 00:29:49

Yeah, don't be mpdsr Yeah, don't be empty now. Yeah, okay. So we had one of them is the same Hideo was speaking about speaking about the same hedaya. So if you Yeah, I'll leave it to them.

00:29:55--> 00:30:00

I want to start off by saying that I think I am keeping on topic. I'm just asking where the members may

00:30:00--> 00:30:10

In the front, now I know that there is no answer. That's why you have to accuse me of going off topic. But let's keep this. Let's keep this on point. I was gonna say generally speaking, the only thing here that

00:30:11--> 00:30:20

that you said which is worthy of mention, or worthy of refutation is the last point you made, which was wasn't it wasn't Ibrahim already a leader?

00:30:21--> 00:30:30

It says, Whatever talaga rahima Robbie kalimat in fact mo hoonah Kala in the DI Luca Lin se manner

00:30:31--> 00:31:07

that I have made you for the people and Amen. Now obviously we know that every prophet is sent to a specific people and a specific time this is mentioned so much in the Quran, that we don't need to even mention it here. And this is very well known. So what Allah is saying to Abraham, since he and his son built the cabin, that now not only is he a leader for his own people, but he's now a leader for the whole of humanity. Everyone that comes to his cabinet and prays he's going to be a leader for these people as well. That's what lots of parents Allah is saying. So this is why it says leader and why Allah subhanaw taala put in se Mmm, collar woman the reality. We said men do reality. Yeah,

00:31:07--> 00:31:32

not all of them got to lay in that environment. Not all of them because some of them will be volumen meaning of precedent Now, having said this, now I've asked him many times can you please bring me any unequivocal verse any ambiguous verse refers to the infallible 12 imams who are meant to be who are meant to be infallible as he's mentioned, who Elko Laney, he's made the book, he's made a chapter heading in El kaffee. Either show,

00:31:33--> 00:32:08

either show, either Show, The Allahu Allah for Allah or something like this, basically, if they wanted to know anything then so in other words, I'll call and he says that these Emily's 12 imams have basically all the propensity to have all knowledge. Where's the evidence for these entities is super entities 12 of them in valuables, who we have to follow, if we don't follow will become preferred in this dunya or the hereafter depending on which school of thought within she has to follow. Where's the evidence that we have to follow these individuals? Now? The truth is, there is no evidence, as we've seen today, I've given him a chance after chance to be honest with you, let's

00:32:08--> 00:32:50

be fair, there is nothing from the Quran. Therefore, we have to just admit, there is nothing unambiguous from the Quran, I'm sure. I think if I asked him that question directly, He will answer there's maybe nothing directly from the point of view we had a chance to answer but having said that, the question would be so where is it? Where did we get this from? Now what I've got really is some really interesting a hadith. I was looking at these, which is inside bin Salman. He said come to the abbey Abdullah. He says he was with him Nam Abdullah, who's Jaffa sodic is Allah Allah Hara Jelani Mills idea to people from this idea came into him for Carla who both of them said to him a

00:32:50--> 00:32:53

FICO mm and started a TA.

00:32:54--> 00:33:28

Is there any man here that we have to be? And this but why do we have to be obedient to? And then he said Java sodic. He said, he said no. Java saw that the six mm of the of the M of the Shia, according to our books, and this is an image of a tub of sea. He says I'm not an Amen. Mohammed says I'm not an Amen. Mmm. They're the they're only memes that when they're asked directly, are you immense, according to their books, and they're changing that agenda. They say we're not a man's. So not only is that not in the Quran, it's not in our heads. It's not even in their heads, and you have the opposite in their heads.

00:33:30--> 00:33:34

I mean, really, what do you need to go on? And I'll give you another piece of evidence is really interesting.

00:33:35--> 00:33:46

This is a very useful piece of evidence, which is who is the m&m? So it's mentioned in narrative Allah, which is one of the most impressive books of the year and they're taken

00:33:47--> 00:34:34

in the who, by Anil COVID-19 avakian where Mr. Othman Allah by whom alayhis salam Yakutia hit the star well a little boy a big road we're in NEMA Ashura he says that they did bear with me I either downside and Sahaba the same way as it was a walk in othmar ominous man How did they do it? They did it through sure surely means consultation by the way. This is not nice. Which is what this she has claimed. Mahajan will answer he Tama Allah Raja Lin was a mo who imagined these individuals come together and they call that person who's in charge of the Muslims Mmm, that would that would apply that that would imply that hey, I live near avatar live according to natural law, which is one of

00:34:34--> 00:34:59

their major books. He's saying that common law was any man and asked men life and is and what kind of delicately lay reader and this is great love to Allah subhanaw taala I've alluded to this in this in the past debate. But really this shows that there has been a an incredibly there's been an anachronism basically, this idea of imams has been put into the Shiite doctrine is nothing from the Quran to talk about that at all.

00:35:05--> 00:35:06

Bismillah R Rahman r Rahim

00:35:07--> 00:35:22

in this verse it mentions that with Apollo Bella hemara who became a multi photon monopole the image I look at the NASA mama Paula woman Doria t ball Allah and Allah D of aalameen right. God mentions Lionel ah D.

00:35:23--> 00:35:31

And then what we know is that the Sunni scholars as well when it comes to the concept of a mama they believe that a mama is its mom with Deen

00:35:32--> 00:36:14

Kamala Dino it's mama Nana right? There are in your books I've got the evidence here. I mean, we can discuss it later. Also Yeah, the question is here so I'm go home and then they refer to Amber's home Shura baina home right. My question is this when the when the verse when you use this verse to say that amberleigh home should have been home. The verse clearly says Amro home sure ah baina home. Just you understand what I say. Okay, so when it when it said that the Emerald home should have been a home? Yes. It says that they use the okay the Mr. Mac the concept of a mama everyone accepts it. But when it says when it's who does it apply to? They use this verse amraam Shura? bainham it means

00:36:14--> 00:36:21

they've done assura they've done assura Oh, sorry, Your scholars. I mean, you're not defending that view or

00:36:23--> 00:37:06

the well sorry. Your question is this. Yes. The question is this. I'm just saying that when they use the Emerald Home Shield obeying the home to say that the mama they chose Abu Bakr, which is our like, maybe we can discuss it later than the books right, which I've found. So they say we've chose abubakr was chosen as the mom, right? And then they use this verse, I'm Don Shula. bainham they did a shoe they chose him. My question is this, when they use this ID in that verse, so it says a mama we put about him as a mom. And then he says, Lionel ID of God says it's my I and I'm not gonna give it to the violin mean, right? Where is the evidence that we can use that say, this idea of God that

00:37:06--> 00:37:50

he says it's my eye? He's giving it to people. So people saw it has become from Abdullah? Abdullah not so amerihome is sure they know when he gave the he gave it the basically, they have the right to choose it between them. Right. Okay. Where does this come? I mean, it's my question. Do we have any any evidence for this? So you've, you've you've confused two things. You've confused. He left her and the mama. Yes. Well, you've confused he left her is when you have a ruler, which we believe is appointed. And some By the way, I was gonna say is nice. But anyways, yes, some Edison essay is NUS by NUS. That abubaker was appointed by NUS. Yeah, by the pneus of the mamsa. But having said that,

00:37:50--> 00:38:26

let's just say there's two opinions. One of them is a shorter one of them as as nice. Yeah. This is talking about the lever. Here. I'm not talking sitting here talking about the lever. Here I'm talking about imama, which is a spiritual position. Because obviously of the 12 imams or 12 shamans, you'll find that actually only two of them will be left or qualified. Right only to have 12. So if all you're saying is that the 12 imams equate the 12 Khilafat that's wrong. Historically, there's only two of them that will ever fall apart. that's point number one. Point number two, you're talking about shorter. The Hadees that I mentioned in the last speech is an answer to your question

00:38:26--> 00:38:51

from Ali and Abu Talib himself. And this hadith is authentic isn't isn't that and Bella, one of the most authentic books of the Shiites of the Shia and basically it says that they ie the module and the answer of they chose the leader, and it was this they chose me in the same way as they chose a buck and armor and off man with some mo who imama and they called him and he men

00:38:52--> 00:39:30

for him and who's saying this is Ali Vitali saying this No. And according to his books and who's had his books, not according to us I had Buhari was a Muslim No, no, according to natural law, and then and then he says and then he says what kind of Delica Allah Allah here the law and he says this is something which is a lot pleased with so what else can you ask for? I'm not even going into just to put on I'm here supporting my evidence with not only Sunni Hadith but she I had it I think that the the situation is completely clear. I think the situation is for anyone who's listening and will lay who has open mindedness from the Shia community. Well, I am reaching out to you guys today. Yeah,

00:39:30--> 00:39:31

I've got how many minutes

00:39:33--> 00:39:54

30 seconds I'm reaching out to you guys today. Really, I'm the reason why I'm doing this debate. So these discussions is because while I do I just generally believe that what we're upon is based upon what the Quran has come with in chapter three verse seven of the Quran, it says the Quran Minho, Ayrton mahkumat on hanamaki turbo motor shabbiha family, life on fire, matter Shabbat

00:39:56--> 00:39:59

May Allah Allah with Allah that the Quran has been

00:40:00--> 00:40:10

As verses on unambiguous verses and those who have deviants in their heart, they'll follow down the ambiguous verses. And this is what we're seeing happening today. Let's find ambiguous verses that talk about the way the Shiites say

00:40:14--> 00:40:15

Is it okay? Sorry.

00:40:21--> 00:41:04

Mother Hen, thank you very much for this discussion, it has been very civil and very friendly, and willing to have more of these discussions so that we can show the world that despite our differences, we can perfectly you know, we are perfectly capable of having discussions like this. Thank you so much. So, my question to you is my brother, that this concept of a mama hat comes with a very clear theology around it, you know, the Shia scholars have explained it in detail, right? What really, really, you know, disturbs me is the fact that it is a central doctrine to the Shia thought it is one of the pillars, right? Okay.

00:41:05--> 00:41:48

And four pillars, we have no gua we have thought here, we have other, you know, we have all these, we can find evidence for all the things Allah wants us to believe in the Quran clearly stated, clearly stated. This is the question we posed to the Christian community, that the difference between us and them is the divinity of Jesus Christ, primarily, that they believe Jesus is God with the Quran confirms right? We ask them, you claim Jesus is God, there is not one verse in the entire text of the Bible, which explicitly states that what we do have, in fact, verses to the contrary in the Bible, which we use against them. So this is the question we throw at them. And this is the same

00:41:48--> 00:41:58

question I'm posing to you. Because I really love our brothers and sisters within the Shia community. It is our love, and our compassion and our care, which has brought us here today to discuss this topic.

00:42:00--> 00:42:30

It is my love, which forces me to ask this question that where is the evidence for this doctrine, which is central to believe? If one doesn't believe in it? One is not a Muslim, as I understand she has theology, okay. Right. So there is no explicit To my knowledge, there is no explicit verse in the Quran, the verses useful about about Ibrahim Alayhi Salam does not give us the doctrine that theology she our scholars have built around the concept of imama. Thank you for listening.

00:42:32--> 00:43:04

It will come. I didn't say that today's discussion is going to be about a mouthful on but I guess we went off topic a couple of times. And that wasn't meant to happen. In the Quran at the beginning. Yeah, no, the moment no Quran, but because because because I didn't even mention that I'm gonna mention the tour was that's gonna be in Sharla. I'm gonna have videos in the future about them. I didn't. So my goal wasn't to prove the tour was my goal wasn't to prove as a solo for. So my friend over here is asking me about that, but I'm gonna still answer his question. So yeah.

00:43:05--> 00:43:42

First of all, I'd like to say that you say clearly stated, well, I have a question to you, brother. Did the Quran say that every Muslim and also the deen every morsel of a sort of Deen has to be clearly stated in the Quran. And the Quran say that every muscle has to be clearly stated, or did the Hadith say that every muscle has to be clearly stated? Okay. Why am I asking that question? Because this is a repetitive question we always hear I say it has to be clear whether it's in the Quran or Hadith. It has to be clear, yeah, that's something you can ask for. There has to be clear. Now it can be clear in the Quran, it can be claimed the Hadith and I do claim is very clear that

00:43:43--> 00:43:46

we're going to have a discussion each and every single little wire, we can we can have that

00:43:47--> 00:43:58

clearly know what's not clearly stated? Let's be Let's be, let's be SP like, you know, precise, what's not clear names? Yeah, I didn't claim I didn't claim that the names on the call Oh, no.

00:44:00--> 00:44:34

No, no, I said the concept some characteristics is mentioned some characters are not mentioned, the characters know, the characteristics that are mentioned, as I said, the infallibility. And we've got the hidayah. These are things we mentioned in the hold on. Apart from that there's loads of other characteristics that will be mentioned, from the from the Tafseer of the ROI and you might not accept the heartbeat. That's why I didn't want to get into that dialogue, or else I'm saying and by the way, there's something else. I don't know if you know this, the whole the whole concept of Imam is discussed in three fields is discussed in the rational field is discussed in the Koran field and

00:44:34--> 00:44:47

its disclosure is discussed in the head is called the rational rational field. It has a totally different discussion. It's all about the looks. I don't know if you heard that. Oh, no. It's a whole different discussion based on the idea that we can refer to Leo, thank you very much.

00:44:57--> 00:44:59

Thank you Roger robbers for this debate in Sharla.

00:45:00--> 00:45:03

Thank you very much for your

00:45:04--> 00:45:30

contribution. Number one, I just want to say that today, we're talking about whether your mom is jail or it's into hub millionaire. So whether a mom is appointment from Allah azza wa jal, or it's an agreement from the people in Nepal on and you failed to stay on topic you kept on going to a Howdy, howdy, how are you? Okay. Number two, you mentioned to the Bravo that

00:45:32--> 00:45:33

Wait, wait, wait, no, no, no.

00:45:35--> 00:45:36

Yeah.

00:45:38--> 00:45:39

Yeah, okay. Okay.

00:45:40--> 00:45:49

Number two, like you mentioned, to the robot that Avi Becker. He was buying us, Omar says in his khilafah

00:45:50--> 00:45:53

in the hill Africa, Abu Bakar cannot filter.

00:45:55--> 00:46:18

Okay, okay. Well, last April, the ones I see. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. My question is, let me just state this statement. Insha Allah, Allah informed us that Jesus is from the offspring of Ibrahim, right? Yes. A lot informed us that Jesus is from the offspring of Ibrahim. Yes. Which are you referring to?

00:46:20--> 00:46:32

And we gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all of them. We got it. And now what we got before among his descendants, ie about him, David, and Solomon, and Jacob and Joseph, Moses and Aaron, those were rude.

00:46:34--> 00:46:44

Yes, yes. And an image of Jesus. No, no, that makes sense. Zakaria, then Jesus is with us. Yes, yes. Yes. It was a three. Yes, yes.

00:46:46--> 00:46:47

Yes. Yeah.

00:46:48--> 00:47:28

Yeah, he was a son of the daughter of Ibrahim Ali Salam. Yes. He was a son of the daughter of Abraham, Jesus, the daughter of the ie the granddaughter, Marian was the granddaughter of Ibrahim because he was from the lineage of Ibrahim Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. When it became valid, that the son of the daughter is also categorized under the term offspring, and Ibrahim asked for the environment to be in his offspring. It also became obligatory for the Prophet Mohammed to follow the example of Abraham in this example why making a mama in the chosen ones from his offspring whom aren't oppresses of any sources Allah revealed to our Holy Prophet and audit him in the Holy Verse, Then we

00:47:28--> 00:47:42

reveal to you on hammer to follow the religion of Abraham inclining towards truth and he was not of those who associate with the law. This reveals to us that Allah wanted the prophet to follow the Abraham's wife conduct as a verse clearly mentions this, okay.

00:47:47--> 00:47:47

Yeah.

00:47:49--> 00:47:50

Same as after you.

00:47:55--> 00:47:57

Okay, okay. So, okay.

00:47:58--> 00:48:38

Okay, um, okay, so this shows that also the Prophet wanted a mama for his offspring. Okay. And Imam Ali is the father of the offspring of the Prophet and Imam is instilled with it in him and his tone songs. Okay, then dication to this way, the indication to this is as diverse Indeed Allah chose Adam and Noah and the family of Abraham and the family of Amazon over the world we know that I'm Ron from the progeny of Abraham yet they were mentioned separately is because they symbolize Allah His heart was algebra him represent alisma in him or Allah, Mohammed and Mohammed is only told the Prophet

00:48:40--> 00:48:42

Okay, do you agree with this concept? Okay.

00:48:46--> 00:48:48

Come on the Quran as I've tried to explain to you guys

00:48:52--> 00:49:28

as I tried to explain to the brothers here today, that what there's a difference between esta la Hey meanings, terminological meanings, and lower meanings. Now, what I'm saying is, you will not be able to find a Salahuddin terminological understanding of Imam as per the Shiite creedal thought in the fronting discourse. So when our last pantalla says mmm I know as a Shia it, maybe you're looking at you've heard the sermons from you know, your Messiah or whatever. And you just okay mama must mean, the mama that the chef is talking about what the Quran doesn't come with that, remember does not mean infallible, it doesn't mean that they have all knowledge or that they have the ability to have

00:49:28--> 00:49:59

all knowledge It doesn't mean that you have to follow them. In all cases, you can have bad imams as we've established, you can be in a man I can be in a man or john then we'll talk in a moment as mentioned in certain for context are 25 of the Quran. So here from the Quranic usage is impossible to extrapolate the idea of Imam so if you're saying, the verse of Abraham would win for Rhea to call Li lei and Allahu taala mean, which has come up with today is indicative of the fact that Abraham wanted leadership for his progeny. I would agree with that entirely. He wanted leadership for his progeny.

00:50:00--> 00:50:35

The question now is exactly right. So what type of leadership so that's not indicated in the verse, all those indicators general, we can't take we can't impose or superimpose something onto the Quran, which is not mentioned in the Quran. So unless you want to take some of your Hadees and then just say, Okay, well, the Hadith tells us, that's your only other hope. I was hoping today you would do something like that and give me a tear or something like this. So I can give you the 11th verse of chapter eight of the Quran which says, Luther Burbank come originally with it with a huge amount of religious Shelton of shape on this verse, the same.

00:50:36--> 00:51:00

This a different verse, you see, look, you thought it was adult bait, because in chapter 33, verse 33, there's in the Missouri the law Reserve Bank original base, which I had to come to here, this is your only evidence of infallibility in the Quran. For the for the elevate, the same wording is used for the Sahaba. Wait a minute, say that, again, the same wording is used for the Sahaba. The only difference being that religious hair is with a scene in sort of Lazarus and with a Z and sort of an fal.

00:51:02--> 00:51:35

Parent now let me just finish I'm saying so hey, the same thing is mentioned and can be the same thing amcom has mentioned for us haba is mentioned for the for the companions, as mentioned for the adequate. So even if you don't want to include the mothers of the believers, even though the cry of that verse was talking about the context was talking about the mothers of the believers will coordinate with you to coordinate women talking to women, if you don't want to include them as part of a debate, you still have to include this as being purified in the same or similar ways, as per chapter eight, verse 11. As as, as the debate themselves, so the whole idea of infallibility is not

00:51:35--> 00:51:47

restricted to any memes. It's not restricted to any debate. It's not. So the idea is really, it seems like you're squeezing blood out of a rock, and it's not working. And I mean, it's with the greatest of respect, but it's just not working.

00:51:50--> 00:52:25

smilla was Tosa masala, thank you more for this discussion. It was very fruitful and respectful. And thank you all for inviting us here. You showed us respect and I appreciate that. What I'd like to do is for the sake of your for the viewers who are watching this majority of them will be lay people wherever the be from shells, also knees. And a lot of these technical terms will go beyond their heads whether the Jolo in the hope they will understand this what I would like to do is keep things very simple for them because we say from a listener perspective is that we believe is six pillars of faith. All of them we can clearly prove them from the Quran and we have five pillars of faith.

00:52:26--> 00:53:08

Similarly we can pull from the Quran I have never heard any Shah Baba sister who has ever disagreed with this told me that No, you cannot prove any of this from the Koran. So, we agree on this. Likewise, from what I get from you, Baba from Russia, from above over here is that you seem to agree that when we asked from your site to prove Can you prove the concept of a mammoth from sheer perspective meaning that there are 12 infallible imams that you seem to suggest that no you cannot prove this and you limited the number. Okay. So, my first question is, do you accept Do you agree that the concept of impairment according to you is actually that there are 12 months or a two for

00:53:08--> 00:53:48

whatever cannot be proven code and you have to resort to that when? If that is the case? If that is the case that you accept that do you then accept from a listener perspective? It doesn't make any sense for me to except to show you if my salvation is based upon this the meaning that the Quran is not sufficient for me, the Quran is not sufficient for me, because keep in mind that we are talking about our salvation. Here. We are talking about Africa man, Yokoyama, we will be asked what we believe, and if we cannot substantiate our belief from the Quran, only, by the way, we don't mind going to the Hadees. But we believe that when it comes to Salah D, we have to be able to back up on

00:53:48--> 00:54:08

the Quran also, this the way we can back up the fundamental issues. So we will have to stick to the fundamental issues here. We are not concerned about how Ibrahim became Imam, why he became the man we want to know. Do you accept that from a Shia perspective? The concept of you hold as a mama cannot be proved from the Quran. Thank you very much.

00:54:12--> 00:54:13

Thank you for your question, brother.

00:54:15--> 00:54:22

inshallah, I think I already answered that question when the brothers I'll just repeat the answer. But with more clarification.

00:54:23--> 00:54:59

You asked whether it's explicit or not precise that it has to be explicit with us and the Wyatt or the Hadith. And then he asked me and said the mama of the ethnoveterinary you said the nail and then I'm gonna ask you a question. Do you mean the concept or do you mean the time the individuals if you asked about the individuals Yes. as clear as on the Quran? No. Give me a CD that claims he's gonna find the names in Milan. No, she did claim that so so it's like this like saying sallahu example and then the rest. And you might say now this is a foreigner. This is not so we're gonna come to the discussion. What does that even mean? Is it is it but the one that does that?

00:55:00--> 00:55:04

denies it becomes a disbeliever. No, the one that denies the salada disbelievers. Oh,

00:55:08--> 00:55:23

I don't believe and we're gonna come to the wire to explain that. The careful Be careful. What does coffee mean? Kava Kava. And this is a coffee Mama. That's an interpretation that I think lots of Sunni brothers don't know. I want to come to that. I don't want I don't want to come to that.

00:55:29--> 00:55:33

We're gonna have it, we're gonna have a different discussion show. No worries. But that's the that's the second thing.

00:55:36--> 00:55:36

I don't know.

00:55:38--> 00:55:39

We'll see.

00:55:40--> 00:55:52

We'll see. We just, yeah, so So basically, that's the two different things I would like to differentiate between. So when you come to the characteristics, as I said, the infallibility and we've got many verses, I didn't bring lots of us today, like I

00:55:54--> 00:56:11

had a discussion with HIV. He said he can't, he can't, he can't, if you want to bring a turkey, you can't bring the turkey today over here. So he does like a condition. You can't bring the condition on the on the on the Empire the following? So he said, I'll tell you a law. Okay. I'll tell you what.

00:56:18--> 00:56:19

We mentioned that before.

00:56:21--> 00:56:47

And we mentioned that the turnout was different than they thought. So I'm saying that I get the point. There might be some some verses that are not like, how can I say? No, every single characteristics of the universe is this. And I already said that there's some explicit verses and there isn't. Okay. That was explicit verse I see. I agree that it doesn't determine the the people who they are in terms of characteristics and what they hold on what they deserve. They deserve to be followed.

00:56:48--> 00:56:49

And that's what I'm saying. I'm saying,

00:56:51--> 00:56:55

Let's, let's be clear with what we're asking, What are you asking, What do you want? Do you want the names?

00:57:00--> 00:57:15

I said the concepts, some of the characteristics. Yeah. So no, definitely not all of it. And as I'm saying that all I need is the infallibility and the hedaya. Evidence, these two, yeah, we can search the hell who deserves it, then we're going to start looking for the progeny of

00:57:17--> 00:57:23

NASA, I'm saying who said look, even within ci, some people believe that's also possible. This is awesome. Oh, Solon.

00:57:25--> 00:57:25

What

00:57:26--> 00:57:32

are some other different issues? So you can't say that everybody says this, I can see and maybe the mainstream say, and

00:57:33--> 00:57:35

I still, I'm still searching.

00:57:37--> 00:57:37

I'm still.

00:57:41--> 00:57:50

You know, I'm saying I'm saying, No, no, I'm I'm 100% sure that this this is a concept. And this is a main concept. Definitely. But I'm saying I'm saying whether it's

00:57:53--> 00:57:58

Do you accept that this position that you just said, is not mainstream position, which one we use?

00:58:00--> 00:58:17

I'll say not the mainstream, you know, I want to say not the mainstream, this whole nother thing, it came, like, you know, later on, like, back in the day scholars, maybe they didn't differentiate between these two. But the whole issue is that this is what we believe. And this needs to be a claim. For the person that doesn't believe the person doesn't believe in the mama.

00:58:18--> 00:58:40

Based on what, based on arrogance, it has to be arrogance, for sorry, for the person that believes that this believes that based on arrogance, that's the cup of luck, like anybody else, you guys are gonna say the same thing. The person that doesn't believe that the salaat is powerful sort of thing, based on evidence. Okay, so you don't have the evidence to prove the firm Why? Why another, you can say,

00:58:42--> 00:58:47

you can't prove this will bring somebody that can prove Is it true? Yeah, we can do it.

00:58:55--> 00:59:06

Use the word jhala. To make a point that it is divinely stipulated because of the word jhala. But the same word is used for khilafah. So if you are using

00:59:08--> 00:59:15

your genitals you Love you. Love this anything you use. Exactly. If we use the same if we use the same argument,

00:59:16--> 00:59:17

right?

00:59:19--> 00:59:52

We use the same argumentation and we would use the same reasons used to prove that a mama because the word Yala is used is divinely stipulated and then looking at your shear perspective, at the same time because it is monsoons a mama is monsoon that's what you believe, right? It is monsoon? monsoon? Yes. Right. So that's why using it using that argument. jhala means made divinely stipulated. We can use the same argument to claim that aboubaker Omar Osman and those who came after Ali Baba who

00:59:54--> 01:00:00

we could if we use the same logic, we can we can we can reverse the logic at you and say because the

01:00:00--> 01:00:09

Java is used for khilafah. Okay, all the one of our who came from Romania, bonobos, and the list goes on, all of them have been appointed divinely.

01:00:11--> 01:00:19

Good point. Likewise, we would explain like just mama used for Batman. This is the thing that I'm trying to say mom.

01:00:20--> 01:00:55

Right? It is I'm trying to say i think i think i've been differentiated and made it clear that we've got the linguistic meaning according to the linguistic meaning, your what you're saying is correct. If we understood that every single child in the Quran is a linguistic doll, which means Java, if that's what it means. Yeah. And that's not what we're claiming. We're saying that there's a difference between the gentlemen we made the difference between the materialistic dad and then the non materialistic john, according to the halifa discussion, which has which has, has characteristics as well, if you want to understand the john with the philosophy because I mentioned look, we need to

01:00:55--> 01:01:21

differentiate No, every job is the job that we're speaking about. We're speaking about the job with the mama Jana Kumi. Mamma mia spiritual. Yeah, I'm saying that divine designation is the job with what would the mama would the word the moment and now you're going to bring two verses that use the word job with a mama with Jana Matatini? Mama. Yeah, they had a different meaning GAVI How comes, we're gonna come to that. And then you're going to use all of us, which I know.

01:01:25--> 01:01:47

That's otherwise you're gonna bring. So I'm gonna say over here, it doesn't make sense for Allah Subhana Allah to designate or have a divine designation for something that's against us either. When it comes to the vessel, what, when it comes to the throne and enough? It doesn't make sense. How would Allah choose that position for what? So what he's saying over here, he's doing the spot on saying he's going to be calling for Jen.

01:01:49--> 01:01:55

Well, I'm just I'm saying, if you want to understand the basic grammatical, and sorry, what

01:01:56--> 01:01:59

the Okay, I'm saying, you don't need this, right. Yeah.

01:02:00--> 01:02:28

I'm saying it's a grammatical discussion. Yeah. It's a grammatical discussion, and it's doing this the thought of the ayat and what this gentleman if you're gonna come to all of us, well, john Allen mattina, imama. It didn't sink in us. So that the mama that was speaking about is that you mama food in us for everyone, right? And then mama is the one that you're speaking about, and that I'm speaking about that has different characteristics. So that's the difference when it comes to most time for us. Sorry.

01:02:35--> 01:02:36

I've got a question.

01:02:37--> 01:02:38

Pause the mic as well.

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I think we should make it very quick because

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if we can do one thing

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one thing that was mentioned in the discussion I saw like you were saying the pillars right of the thing is that we have to remember something we're talking about but on but on says love versus about sunlight, love love versus about zacapa love versus, but the thing is that canon Muslim live only with the Koran says okay, so the Sun Tzu or the other words verses about salat, right?

01:03:13--> 01:03:51

CRM salaat but do we know how to do salata five times a day? And then how many rock eyes hands like this hands like that all of these discussions between Muslims as well right? So what we're talking about when it comes to Quran we have to differentiate something right? Because when it comes when it comes to the Quran, we need to differentiate, we need to understand something. When talking about the Quran, the Quran is one book. And he's got full of concepts, right? A lot of the times when we want to understand the concepts, what do we need to do? We need to go and see Okay, and then we've got different sorts we've got Hadeeth right we've got the failure of the of the of the Prophet

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right, we have to see how the Prophet did solo comma, right. All right, said to the people, how should we pray come and see how I pray? Right? Did it say in the hold on No, specifically, right? But isn't solid something important in the in Islam? Right. So okay, and this is one thing that I wanted to mention, when it comes to a mama when you're asking right? You need proof over the 12 months, right? Well, let's say is that the way we should

01:04:18--> 01:04:38

discuss this is this is that the concept of Mr. Ma is something that we say it is in the Quran and the sun is even believe it is right the even the sun needs some ways you know, it is actually so you have to remember there are there are discussions on this right? But the concept of a moment, right someday is about Allah says no.

01:04:42--> 01:04:44

Mama and khilafah is usually

01:04:46--> 01:04:54

No, no, you have to remember some of your scholars, some of your scholars say that a mama is what I just want to say is you and your point and then give it

01:04:57--> 01:04:58

just don't you just don't see your points.

01:05:00--> 01:05:02

To come to Congress, you give me the microphone. Oh, sorry.

01:05:05--> 01:05:39

Yeah, no, what you're saying is, it's correct. Yes, the word mama and khilafah used it. A mama is generally used in the Quran generally, when we read it without superimposing external meaning on it, or inaccurate, anachronistic meanings, meanings that were developed later by people, two centuries, three centuries later, concepts were developed. And they were super important that wasn't wasn't the same thing about solitons or cotton in all these different ways. Now, until you Salah is clearly defined in the Quran, we don't realize how, yes, of course, they

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like the concept of sanada. Yes.

01:05:44--> 01:05:52

On the concept of Iran as well, on the concept of this, the thing is, can I say something? Can I just make a point? Okay, can I

01:05:53--> 01:06:23

understand, I understand, but can we just make a point? This is the thing when we go back to the Salafi versus locally understanding, yeah, there's no difference of opinion that locally linguistically, the word Imam means leader. And we have this concept in Islam, generally speaking, your understanding of Islam as being confined to a set number of human beings, whether you want to say eight 712, these individuals with certain quality of vision depend on salvation depends upon them, and they are more important than the profits, they are more important than all of the profits of the majority.

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That's a controversial issue.

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In schools is a controversial issue. So we

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mentioned in his book, there's five opinions. Okay, having said that, let's just this is put to rest. This is one of the pillars of Islam, according to this year, what is the will as part of the, I mean, the Shahad has not mentioned by the Hadith, this hadith is Maria is narrated by different chains of narration, yet they say that the wilayah, which involves imama is more important than everything else. This is how deep and important it is yet it's not mentioned the Quran is something unfathomable really is something which we cannot cover. That's why the one point number two, can I say?

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Just one more point because you spoke for about five minutes. Just one more point. One one point about the salon, I think is a very poor example, why the salon as mentioned many, many times in the Quran, and the tougher seal of the salon as mentioned the Quran, so so it's hilarious. Suicide tells you how to do withdrawal. And so to me, that's all you have to do will do. So as the Quran tells us,

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it tells you the times of prayer in order to answer.

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And

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we understand. I'm just saying that the example I understand, but has not mentioned knock has not mentioned and these things are not mentioned. However, what I'm saying is I'm here I'm not arguing a Quran only position. This is not my argument. The brother he is he said that he's going to bring a case that you can extrapolate from the Quran. That's what he said, we have kind of conclusively seen that that's not possible, to be honest with you. Now, if you're saying that let's go to the Hadeeth as a secondary source, that's a different conversation. And I've had that conversation with other people before you see this is the problem we have in the Christians as well. Not we're not I'm not

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doing a comparison between the Shia people and Christians. I'm not. I'm not saying that. I'm saying Christians have no explicit verse in the entire text of the Bible to substantiate the divinity of Jesus Christ which is essential for salvation. But he which is this the point we're making something essential to salvation. We are so novel Gemma we people. Okay, we want to go to gentlemen, we don't want to end up in hellfire. We don't want to be against the debate. We we don't want to be on the Day of Judgment standing on one side and other debate. Earlier Mr. Lamb standing on the other side. We don't want to be like that. Okay. We asked Allah subhanaw taala to guide us to the straight path.

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That's what we hit. Okay. And this is what we're trying to understand. And try to convey to our Shia brothers and sisters as well, that if a cell if if a concept that

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encompasses our salvation or our salvation depends on it. Then on the Day of Judgment, Allah subhanaw taala has no case against us. I'll tell you why. Because we can turn around and say to Allah, why did you leave it confusing? Just like the Christians, they have no case against us on the Day of Judgment, right? They'll turn around and say, Why didn't you believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ, there's the verse. Where is the idea? So if a mama is a central concept to our salvation, our success in the Hereafter, it has to be clearly stated like Salah like Zakat like Sam, okay, right.

01:09:44--> 01:09:45

Yeah,

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the COC is giving. giving charity to the poor is clearly stated in the Quran.

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What do you mean how many of you are talking about these ecart we know what it is. We know what it is.

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From the Quran yeah it's clear

01:10:04--> 01:10:05

Surah Tauba sir

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yes

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yeah

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we have a

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look on our last question all Allah had to do all Allah subhanaw taala to do one one sentence or to ima Alma. Alma, we mean

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all of that to say one sentence, like, on a night to say obey the Imams who are infallible, who, who have knowledge of karma, karma, you could Yeah.

01:10:47--> 01:10:48

Yes. Yes.

01:10:55--> 01:10:55

That's it.

01:10:58--> 01:11:03

More information back and forth flow as we say in the fit, right?

01:11:07--> 01:11:07

Yes.

01:11:09--> 01:11:10

You're right.

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But not not for our central not something not something.

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Can I just I just clearly stated in the Quran

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Yeah.

01:11:25--> 01:11:28

Okay, so we conclude that a mama is not in the Quran, no, no.

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final statement.

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Okay, can I can I can very quickly. So, so we so we can conclude basically, that we agree, I hope you agree that the definition of Mr. Matt as PE that is actually definition that there are 12 imams that they infallible and that higher motivation and they are superior to the prophets or the NBA except Maha Salam. And that also vision is based upon this, I think more or less that we agree, it is not present in the Quran. It is not present.

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Now. Okay, so. So, now if that's the case, if that's the case, then we have to conclude that it does not make rational sense to claim that it should be powerful or solid in that my salvation is based upon the meaning if I reject this now as a Sunni meaning IMD doomed to jahannam out Avila. Yeah, so you'd have to agree with us on this on this point, that from a objective perspective, if it cannot be proved from the tabular, because the Quran is the only thing that we agree on. Buhari is not good for you. A Cafe is a hookah for me. We both agree that Quran is a foundation and, and the forgone the criteria for my salvation, your salvation. So Baba, if we agree that it is not present, then we

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have to agree that we have to reject it. Thank you very much.

01:13:01--> 01:13:02

Continue.

01:13:13--> 01:13:16

I just I just want to answer your question, then I'll finish my statement.

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If you're speaking about salvation, that's not mentioned. I agree. If you're speaking about the number that's not much in the Quran, if you're speaking about that, then fallible and they are the ones that have to be followed that we need to search for infallible role models and examples. I believe that's exactly that's why I believe in now, no, no, I can't call me finished.

01:13:43--> 01:13:44

No, look.

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Sorry. This is finished. I'll open my final statement.

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I hope this was a chance for us to see each other and hopefully we'll see these wonderful faces in the future. inshallah, me as well.

01:14:04--> 01:14:06

Time is only one month. Okay. Yeah.

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inshallah, we're willing to have more discussions in the future.

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I just wanted to say that.

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According to the Quran, we tried to prove the designation that there's different types of designations, as we said, or different types of divine actions. We said there's divine designation and divine formation. And we tried to say that if it's the divine designation, it has to be the mama the mama has to be divine sorry, the divine sorry.

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Designated divine divinely designated, it has to be from the from the from Allah subhanaw taala. And then we spoke about the infallibility, and that the infallibility can be extrapolated from different verses. From what janome Mauritania Dona via Marina, the dire case we can Arabic, okay. The day that we're speaking about us to be in service

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The one that's worthy of following and we've got all the verses for the small we didn't bring today. I'm gonna just do it.

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Okay, just gonna look at why I want to do this conclusion rather than talking about the theological matters, which we've done yeah, I just want to address an issue here which is I think a lot of people have been avoiding doing what we're doing today. Yeah, in the especially in the English speaking world and Arabic speaking world is done by it's not it's not necessarily always fruitful. But today what we've done is we've we've brought Xi Anson together, not in a way to try and unify ideologies and theologies, this is not gonna happen, because we have differences which are very clear, and impossible to reconcile, sometimes, in some instances, but in a way to at least negotiate

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or discuss terms, which are very central to both of our theologies, and with the most central thing, I think, well, the biggest difference between Sunni and Shia is in my opinion, mmm, everything else revolves around that. So I'm happy that we've been able to discuss this

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Not least because there's some people now this that have heard your voice heard your case, it's not me just speaking for the Shia is to she is speaking for themselves. And we've been able to do it and you've hosted us in a brilliant way and I want to extend my hand to shake your hand here. And thank you because you were brilliantly lay and

01:16:21--> 01:16:30

even brilliantly well mannered and very respectful. And you know, you've got our help. Anytime you need a you know, we're always here for you as well as Sunni brothers inshallah.

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Thank you.