Discuss Red pill, The Vote and Feminism
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Channel: Mohammed Hijab
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AI Generated Summary ©
The speakers discuss the "backlash literature" of the women's vote and the "red pill movement" that has caused issues for traditional values. They also talk about the success of the Red Bull movement, which has been a focus on transphobic and feminist issues. The speakers emphasize the importance of women taking accountability and following the rules of the game, but men need to take accountability and follow the rules. They also discuss the need for a stronger approach to argumentation and emphasize the importance of a more authoritative approach to relationships.Transcript ©
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Guys, welcome to the Audacity Network and welcome
to another episode of The Sit Down. Today,
I have a special guest on the channel.
He's a YouTube channel with 1,200,000
subscribers arguing the case for and educating people
about Islam.
Welcome to the show, Mohammed Jhab. Thanks for
having me. Thank you for coming. So
I think when I first,
when I first decided to have you on
the show, you messaged me something about
a lot of my views are similar to
Islam.
So I was curious. What what views?
Well, of course, I mean, look, if I'm
being open and transparent of you,
what's happened? Let's take this historically. Because what's
happened in the west is that there was
a feminist movement,
and you had 2 major waves, the first
wave and the second wave. First wave of
feminism, maybe you could say after the 19
twenties,
and it focused on the vote and stuff.
Right?
That's probably a a point of, difference. I
I don't have an issue with the vote.
I know that you've been,
tweeting about the woman's vote. To be honest,
I see it. I think it's the root
of all evil. No. I I I think
you haven't argued that point well enough, to
be honest. We can we can talk about
that. Yeah.
But
the second wave, feministic
output, okay, this is where a lot of
the issues of society that we would agree
as Muslims, traditionalist Muslims,
would be.
Because it's not just about equal pay and
all that kind of thing. We I don't
have an issue with equal pay. It's about
domestic drudgery.
It's about the new attitude that the West
is now having,
vis a vis the mother, vis a vis
the family unit, vis a vis,
what is success, what constitutes success
for a woman in general. And that was
what could be conceived to be diametrically opposed
to
traditional values in Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and cross
culturally historically for a very long time. So
the fact that there's been a response to
it, some academics have labeled this as
the backlash literature.
Okay? So that you've had from the sixties
to, like, 2,000.
You've had all this feminist
output, and now people are coming out and
responding to it.
And one of the first books that I
came across
was a book called the Myth of Male
Power. I'm not sure if you've come across
a very important one
by Wirral Farron, and he kind of set
the trend a little bit, I think, academically.
Then you had a range of different outputs,
and I would
compartmentalize
the outputs into 2 different types. You had
what you would call academic output. So people
like James Tooley has a very interesting book
called the miseducation of women.
Yeah. Very good book. It's part of the
backlash literature.
For instance, right,
we've already mentioned Will Ferron.
But then on the other hand, you had
the cultural leaders, people that were making sound
you know, noise
on the Internet and stuff like that. And
I think,
probably the most effective person was Andrew Tate.
Mhmm. Okay. I think we would all agree.
If he if there was one person that
Phenomenal. Yeah. One person had, like, a media
rise like that Yeah. Overnight, basically.
Absolutely. So you you have people to Andrew
Tate, and I would say Kevin Samuels as
well Oh, yeah. From a cultural perspective.
And I would put and yourself and other
people Mhmm. In that same bracket.
Now this is usually referred to as the
red pill movement or something like that. Obviously,
from an academic perspective, there's not much that
has been produced from a red pill perspective.
Only
Rolo Tomasi
has really,
I would say,
put in effort in that regard. Mhmm. Notable
effort. He's written his book,
The Rational Mail. I'm not sure if you've
come across it or you've spoken to him
about it. Yeah. But that seems to be
an organized set of ideas of some sorts.
Apart from that, the Red Pill movement has
been, I would say,
the most,
loud,
kind of cultural,
production
producer of of knowledge,
if you like,
and attitudes,
which has been a response to feminism since
the sixties. Mhmm. That's what I think. That's
the history of it. And so I think
everyone deserves their recognition
as part of that movement.
But I also think that the red pull
movement has gone into overcorrect mode. Mhmm. And,
you know, sometimes when the pendulum swings too
much in one direction,
it swings
an equal and opposite amount K. In the
other direction. And I do think that there
are some things the Red Bull movement, which
I've already voiced, you know, with many different
podcasts,
recently Fresh and Fit Mhmm.
Which I think are also not not right
or incorrect or incoherent Mhmm. Or whatever. However,
a lot of the stuff needed to be
said, I must say.
And so where
I think what you've said agrees with Islam
or agrees with the position,
which I would say is more favorable to
women anyway from a psycho spiritual
perspective, is obviously the focus on traditional
roles,
obedience to the husband, which is a very
I mean, to say obedience to the husband
in the sixties seventies
when the feminist movement was fresh would be
blasphemous,
sacrilegious.
And for for someone, okay, to come out
and speak about that as in yourself and
other people
is definitely seen as
as a very audacious,
no pun intended, obviously, this place called. Right?
Yeah. Very audacious thing to do. Mhmm. And
very in our in our sense, very praiseworthy.
You know? In our religion, for example, in
Islam, and I would say in Judaism as
well, and I would say traditional forms of
Christianity, in all 3 Abrahamic Yeah. Religions,
this has always been a thing. You know?
This has always been a thing. And cross
culturally, and once again, historically, this has always
been a thing.
And there's good evidence to suggest that this
this kind of family unit, this kind of
structure
is what brings people happiness,
contentment.
It makes a better
living for children, for families. It's good evidence.
I'll give you one piece of evidence.
The longest
study that has ever been produced,
on the well-being of women in the west
is a study called Blanche Flower and Oswald,
Okay. Which took place between the 19 seventies
until 2000.
And you'll note that this study took place
after the sixties, after
many of the laws had now been passed
in America and in the UK and other
places,
which gave women the right to work and,
you know, equal pay and all these kind
of things, abortion, all that kind of stuff.
Alright. But then what we find
is that we find that women are now
finding it harder.
According to the study,
they have become more dissatisfied.
So, obviously, we can't say correlation equals causation.
But what we're saying is
there's good evidence to suggest
even to the extent to which even the
founding mothers of feminism like Betty Friedan and
others,
They acknowledged
that this the feminist movement now took a
a shape of its own, and it was
having an impact on women's health.
Mhmm. You know? She said it herself.
Betty Friedan,
who wrote, obviously, the feminine mystique in 1963
in the
seventies eighties,
she came and said that this movement now
has become religious, feminist movement.
And what she had said about It's become
religious? Yes. It's become something which even she
tried to to stop it from being like
that. Oh, so The feminist feminism had become,
like, pseudo religious. Okay. You see what I
mean? I thought you meant like, what? I
was like, what religion is that? No. I
mean, when I say religious satanic?
When I say religious,
I mean, like, it's it's taking on the
traits of someone who believes in feminism.
Right.
Exhibits the same
physiological and psychological traits as someone who follows
a religion would exhibit. Mhmm. So she she
acknowledged that, and she realized
she actually conducted her own study,
okay,
in her second book that she wrote, The
2nd Sage, and she said that women's health
has become
worse.
So there's no evidence that feminist prescriptions
have been good for society.
And where we agree
wholeheartedly and definitely is on the point that,
okay, we need to go back to more
traditional
Right. Way of living, and that's better for
everyone. Mhmm.
Obviously, where we disagree is that look. I
mean, some things like I would say the
stuff that you just mentioned, like, you know,
the woman's voting and stuff, mother of all
view. I don't know if the argument has
been made
strongly enough, if I'm being honest with you.
Mhmm. Like, I don't know if you made
the argument Well, I I actually do say
that some women can vote Yes.
If they're not on child support Okay. Alimony,
they're not taxpayers,
they're in the military or have an infrastructure
job. My point is if we made those
the requirements, maybe land owners, business owners.
But if we made that the requirement, most
women wouldn't vote anyway.
Look. Look. You know, historically go to technicality.
You know? Historically,
okay. There's a difference between representative democracy and
direct democracy. Right? Democracy came out from Athens,
you know, 1000 of years ago, maybe 2,500,
2,400 years ago.
And,
actually, in the first instance, at least in
Athens, not in Spartan and other places, but
their women were excluded from the vote. I
mean,
Plato has a whole
criticism
of,
voting for the commoners.
But and he says that the people who
should vote are those who are like the
elites, the intellectual elites. Because why should we
have dumb people voting anyway in society? That's
his position.
I would say that position is much more
respectable than yours, though. Mhmm. But only because
it's like what you said can be applicable
to certain,
groupings of men. Mhmm. Do you know what
I mean?
What do you If you think about it,
right, there are some peep let's say, for
example,
we can do this in myriad ways.
If you've got if you've got a woman
who's a PhD. Right? Mhmm. And she's a
she's a specialist in a specific area, then
you've got a man
who as you see. I find that PhDs
these days, it doesn't mean Yeah. Yeah. He
goes. Let's let's go to the,
conventional
race realist favorite,
go to thing, IQ. Okay. Fine. Okay. IQ.
Let's say a man does an IQ test,
and he gets 50,
and a woman gets a 150.
Okay? See, I'm I'm different. I don't really
believe in IQ. No. No. But yeah. Me
and you both. I mean, I have my
own criticism of the IQ. Okay. Okay. But
yeah. I do have I'm fine. I I
understand what you're saying. Trying to say is
that, like, you know, it's
if if if it's based on,
prudence,
then we have to now if you say,
okay. Well, there's certain segments of the size
I shouldn't vote over a certain age, and
that's based on prudence. Mhmm. Then let's put
the, you know, the parameters there, and you're
gonna just you're gonna not include a lot
of men in there as well.
Yeah. Well, I I don't think men that
don't pay taxes don't
you know, I don't I don't think men
that, like, are on benefits should really vote
either. I I just don't think it's fair
that, like,
like, I think the problem we keep getting
into is people that are living off the
system
keep voting for more and more handouts.
Mhmm. And and that's kinda the issue that
I have with it. And women are just
the majority of people on benefits.
Mhmm. So Well, women are, majority of people
on benefits. So now this is not an
argument about who's best at choosing
the right politics. It's about
not including people who take from the system
or they're using their vote. Yeah. Yeah. True.
But I'm saying what it's mostly women that
take from the system. Sure. But then if
we say the same thing, we could one
can respond to that quite easily and say,
well, look at the bankers in this country,
for example. Right? Mhmm. They get away with
the most.
They've got the most money coming in, but
they get away with the most. They don't
have to pay anything in in terms of
taxes and stuff like that. They they threaten
and leverage the government and so on. How?
So,
I don't know enough about banks. Example, like,
in 2008, there was a recession, which was
a worldwide recession, but, obviously, was felt particularly
heavily here in the UK and London and
so on.
And, you know, the government had to bail
out the bankers.
You know? And this led to a lot
of consternation and resentment in the mass population.
Oh, so is that like like, we had
that 2,007, 2,008.
Oh, okay. Same thing happened here. Same thing.
But the the idea is that it's not
it's not a correct thing to think that
it's only
the, let's say, working class
socioeconomic grouping Mhmm. That gets to leverage
what the government say Mhmm. Or use the
government or use the vote
to enact policies which are in its best
interest aside from the interest of, say, the
majority of people. Because the bankers and the
elites also do the same thing. Well, I
guess,
because I I think you're are you saying
that I'm saying the middle class wouldn't vote
then?
Is that what you're No. I'm just saying
that depending on, like, what parameter we use.
Yeah. So, for example, if you say, let's
use an IQ parameter. Let's use an intelligence
parameter. Right. Well, it's not gonna be a
it's whatever parameter we use, it doesn't seem
like it's gonna be a gender issue then.
Well, I I think whatever parameter we use,
women would still mostly not vote. Because I
I would include infrastructure, like, I think the
plumbers should be able to vote, the elect
like, people actually running the backbone of society.
Mhmm. I just think there has to be
some skin in the game. Yeah. That's why
I mean, the the thing is when we
say skin in the game is this would
be a bit of a tension between what
you say here and then what you say
what women should do. Because
correct me if I'm wrong, but your idea
of women should be at home, right,
as homemakers?
Sort of. But, yeah, most if you have
children. Yeah. Sure. Okay. So they don't have
any skin in the game in that sense
because they're not paying taxes if they're at
home.
So you can't send these women,
signals, you know. Oh, yeah. Then then you
get your husband vote. You're supposed to listen
to him anyway. Right? No. I get what
you're I get I understand what you're saying.
But you you see, like, whatever parameter you
use, you're gonna see an issue with it.
That's why you have to rethink these arguments
a little bit. Maybe you just But even
the homemaker, it's not like most women are
homemakers anyway
in this society. So I again, it wouldn't
be the you wanna change? I mean, this
Well,
I I think it would be better, but
I wouldn't predict it, I guess. I'm kind
of a I'm like a happy pessimist. Okay.
I just I don't think that's gonna happen
in my lifetime, if I had to guess.
Yeah. So that's one issue that we disagree
on. It's not necessarily,
I I was disagree because I don't think
the force of the argument is there. I
think you need to think about the argument
a bit stronger. Mhmm. That's that's all. And
just because so that's one thing. I mean,
it's but
the other thing I think is an approach,
though. Mhmm. Because,
you know, I've gone through your channel, not
all of the videos, but mostly the shorts.
I think your shorts have done very well.
Part of your success has been your shorts.
And,
there was a theme there. I mean, look.
Once again, everyone can do their own thing.
I'm not Mhmm. But the theme was, okay,
women need to take accountability, and I agree
with that theme. Mhmm. Do you know what
I mean? Like, okay, women need to take
accountability.
But I also think men should take accountability.
Okay. So how do we do this? Because
if you tell people that, okay, you need
to take accountability. For example, women. Right? Modern
women are the least accountable of any generation.
Mhmm. But so so are modern men. Like,
compare the modern man with a medieval man.
He fails in almost every metric. Mhmm.
Men are now junkies. They are, you know,
desperados. They are, you know, losers.
They a lot a lot of men in
the west and elsewhere, not just in the
Muslim world as well. Compare them with their
medieval equivalent in terms of warrior status and
and what they've done in the battlefield, in
terms of what they do in terms of
protecting their family. Mhmm.
So I do think that because here's the
thing. I think with relationships,
we get we have a trend now of
people, both men and women, trying to deflect
blame. Mhmm. So a lot of men yes.
They're the red pill stuff, it resonates with
them Mhmm. And for good reason. Because people
in the red pill are saying things that
need to be said, and I'm the first
one to admit this. Mhmm.
That woman needs to take accountability. That woman
needs to obey their husband, all that kinds
of traditional roles, all that kind of thing.
I agree with that. You know, I'm a
Muslim. At the end of the day, we're
conservative. We're very conservative. We're we're more conservative
than any conservative in the west. Mhmm. Like,
you know, if we really think about it.
We're so conservative that wouldn't even be called
conservatism anymore.
Be far right. Yeah. No. No. Not far
right. Because the that the whole spectrum, the
political spectrum from Western perspective is different. Oh
my gosh. It's way more in-depth than I
thought. Yeah. Like, when I first got into
it, I was like, I'm conservative, but there's,
like,
so many different layers that I didn't need
to know before I got into it. Because
the issues of conservatism is that it depends
on like, in America, they have new neo
conservatism. Yeah. And then you have traditional conservatism
that was, like, promulgated by someone like Edmund
Burke. And all of it is not what
we are. Mhmm. But we have aspects of
conservative ideology, which we agree.
But
the point I was making was this is
that,
I do think that, like, the message
is partly right. Mhmm.
And as I say, we agree with it,
but there needs to be a bit more
pushing accountability for men as well. And there
needs to be a bit more conciliatory
approach. What's conciliatory?
Like harmonizing. You know? We we need we
wanna harmonize between because the thing is, at
the end of the day, men and women
can't live without each other.
Mhmm. And we need to get along with
each other. Mhmm. I've I've met many women
who are embittered, and I've met many men
who are embittered.
Like, they've either had a bad breakup or
someone's taken money from them or their ex
wife has taken off their wealth. All of
this stuff, I disagree with.
However and that needs to be called out.
Mhmm. But I I do feel like that
that there's an there's a time now if
we we need to tryna get men and
to work as partners rather than as competitive.
to work as partners rather than as competitive.