Channel: Jonathan Brown
I want to ask for specific
I want to ask the question, can you give me the acceptance of authentic and
Without or without a contradiction?
Just to say that
there may be another burden Howdy. different sources that may contradict the age?
Or does the study of the
You seem agitated about this. Yeah. What is your agitation? Why are you
uncomfortable about it, but some people are?
What makes you uncomfortable?
Why what makes you uncomfortable in the context of now?
I think, I think the question is more to do with data sources such as poverty, and
they have reports which appear to identify other research she was nine when Toby has a very interesting quote, no one ever cites is poverty says they signed the marriage. They did the marriage contract when she was six, but she was young. And it's so severe that
he was she was too young to have to have sex. And so they waited. And then they consummated marriage later. So this is I don't, I've looked at all the evidence on these other arguments of how she was older. I don't find it convincing at all. I mean, it's really, I understand people why they're making that argument. But I think it's very their arguments are very weak, you know, that.
She, she had instead of, and she witnessed the Battle of bezer. And even Omar wasn't allowed to go into battle until he was 15. So she must be at least 15. But that's like saying that in order to go to a
Manchester United game, that's a that's a soccer team here, correct? What's a London version?
In order to go there Arsenal game, you have to fulfill the physical requirements of athletes in the game, which are nonsense. She couldn't participate in the battle.
Signs of a deep is that vysshaya says, The Prophet consummated the marriage with me when I was nine years old. That's what the Hadees does, is authentic and even Buhari, and even if you don't want to say that Buhari is no his book is the most authentic, you mean, it's the most explicit data you have on this issue and everything else is implicit derived from very tenuous assumptions about
a culture or something or or practice at the time. So would you say that then we would go against the
information? I think it is because then you have to look at this is a very interesting issue. Okay, this is very interesting.
non Muslims, from the life in the community, the prophet in Medina, from his opponents in Mecca, to john of Damascus, died 749 in his polemics against Islam, to Matthew of Paris and the 1100s. To Voltaire to give in to this szentendre roll on to
anybody who wants to insult the Prophet.
They had tons of information, they, they want, they were looking for any thing they could use to solve the problem.
And they his sex life was target Numero Uno.
It's no grand the issue of Xena ns eight.
I mean, this is we have document during his own time, people said you're committing incest, because adoptive children are like regular children. This is true in URIs. This is true in the Roman Empire, Roman culture. antiquarian says No, they're not. This was the biggest. If you look at the instances in which the daidzein affair is mentioned by critics of the Prophet from his lifetime, until 1900. You will not you'll run out of check marks on the paper before you
Count the number of times the story is used by opponents as
they make they also insulted for marrying I show. Why? Because he was so obsessed. He's so lustful. He's such an such an aid driven creature. I don't believe this, just in case someone is recording. This is not what I'm saying. I'm just quoting the opinion of others. He's such an driven creature that he has this fantasy of I show a dream about her and he wants to marry her.
No one ever mentioned her age ever, that I found until 1905.
The British historian, David Margolis has a book on the rise of Islam, the prophet in Islam.
And he mentioned this and he says, it's an ill advised union, for how else should we characterize the marriage between a man in 53 integrals?
This is the first I've ever seen that anyone mentioned.
Why is that? Why is that until the early 20th century, no one talks about this.
When they are good, they're making stuff up about the prophet to insult them.
And they don't bring this up. Because they were all marrying underage girls to
mean, you have to understand that pre modern, in fact, even today,
peasant societies to use the Marxist term societies where you have, the vast majority of people live in small agricultural communities. And agricultural work is the predominant form of livelihood. Marriage is very early, especially for women, generally, right after puberty.
And as I tell him, I,
yeah, Gandhi got married very young.
Because he had to remember, I've said this before in other lectures, and I think it's very important. Our notions of what you're supposed to do in life are based on our lifestyle, if you don't have high school, and college or wherever college and university and, you know, medical school, and you have to go get a job, if you're just living in the desert, and you're tending goats all day. And you're a good boy and go through puberty. And being a boy, male who's gone through puberty, I can tell you speak for the rest of the men out there. Basically, 99.9% of your brain at that point is occupied with sex. And I don't know what the percentage is with women. But I assume
that women at some point start getting interested in sex too. And you're sitting out there with goats, and you've got nothing to do. There's no hope in your life of ever doing anything except attending goats. Why in God's name, would you not get married? It makes no sense. Of course, you should.
And like, oh, you're not emotionally mature? What? What is the emotional mature? What does that mean? emotionally mature? This guy doesn't know what emotionally mature is. He said he doesn't.
People don't think about that. Well, what about, you know, power, dynamic in your relationship? What's our dynamic in the relationship? This is all months. This is all completely anachronistic concepts we're imposing on the past or on societies that justify we maybe don't care about this. So my argument don't no one mentioned this, because it wasn't a concern.
And England, interestingly enough, historically has relatively high marriage ages, even in the Middle Ages, in the mid 20s. England's a very odd place historically.
this starts becoming an issue in the 20th century. And Muslims writers start dealing with it. And the interesting thing is Who's Who are the people who start dealing with this issue? First. It's not enough. It's people like a bass mahmudul of God, the Egyptian prose writer, a poet who died in 1964, who's
he's a anti colonialist, anti imperialist. He's not an Islamist. He's not his first and foremost about interested in reviving the identity of Egypt, of his community and his world, but defending it against the West.
He sees the appreciating and understanding early Islam is important. So he writes lots of books on the prophet and he really,
and he is the first person I've seen who takes up this issue of trying to, to, to try and figure out a way to argue that he was older. He said she was 14 or 15.
But because he's concerned about
the image in western eyes, because at that point, you can look at effects wise in Egypt, you start getting federal requests.
Why? Why is it you know, isn't it bad that there's an old man marrying a young woman? Shouldn't we have a law against this? Shouldn't we have a law in 1923 Egyptian law changes and makes 16 the minimum age for marriage for women
In Syria around the same time you get to 1816 or 18.
This becomes a big deal in debates over law in Muslim countries importing Western legal codes, and a lot of them are fight against these marriage age restrictions. And they only accept them as procedural restrictions, that they say Sharia marriage is valid
with the agreements is valid at any age.
The consummation should only take place when the woman is physically able to Pharaoh, which is the traditional pre modern Sharia rule. But the ruler as the ruler has the right to restrict procedurally what can be registered as a marriage.
And you see scholars like adhikam tawi in Syria, like
obviously, Mahmud II just
said, defend the idea of making marriage age 16 or 18. Because they feel this is actually a good way to promote social welfare. But you can't say from a Sharia perspective, you cannot say that what the Prophet did was wrong because the Prophet