Abuse in Relationships in the Name of Islam

Bismillah salatu salam ala rasulillah Allah, he was in Santa Monica to the Mercado

Libre really honored today on campus to have such a high level. And he with us who's done some tremendous work in the realm of psychology, especially for the Muslim community here and abroad. He's also been on TV in Egypt, at least I think other places possibly too. And I wanted to have the opportunity of her being local in Dallas, to have her come every once in a while and discuss, just have short conversations for our benefit here on campus. And also, for the benefit of Muslims at large. I recorded this and put it up on YouTube on some things that I think are very pertinent important to talk about better happening in the Muslim community and shouldn't be happening. So the

first of those conversations in sha Allah is abuse in relationships in the name of Islam. So I'll give you a brief introduction, and then I'll ask some questions and we'll have some conversation. At the end of it, you're free to ask questions inshallah. Okay, so,

you know, quite a few people, you know, reach out to me after a talk, or they email me, or,

you know, they'll in a question answer session, I'll get questions about relationships, you know, relationships of parents, with children, children, parents, husband and wife. And a lot of them have to do with me, is what I'm doing. How am I going to Hellfire because of what I'm doing consistently? Put the micron? Yeah.

Am I going to Hellfire because of, you know what I'm doing? And I haven't seen Why would you even think like this? And I get the answer that? Well, my husband told me, I can't go out of the house. Or I can't call my friends. And if I do, I'm disobeying him if I disobey Him, I'll never make it to the paradise. Right. And parents use this kind of line against their children. You know, the guilt tripping them in the name of religion. Look at this is our beloved son. And of course, there is the even though it's just as painful, there are psychological abuses that are happening like this. And there are physical abuse that even happens in the name of Islam, and all of which is such an offense

to Islam itself. So I wanted to get your insights on what you've seen what you've observed, and how you tackle these sorts of situations. Well, it's an honor to be with you

today and salaam aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakato. have

definitely this is, this is a phenomenon that's taking place. And I see this all the time, like he said, with, with parents using using Islam as a way of abusing their kids as a way of threatening them. And if you see that this is a form of fear, motivation. And if you look at the psychology of instilling fear in a person, you find that the person may adhere while the person in authority is present. But when you're fear motivated, it's all about like, not getting caught. And if it is, when it's instilled within you, when you have love for a person, and when you have respect per person, then you are more motivated to to do things and you do it willingly and happily, not out of just

fear. So you find that let's say we give an example of, of two students, one student fears the heck out of their teacher, and it's all about I don't want to get in trouble, I don't want to be punished. And then the other, the other student is more motivated, because they love that teacher, and they feel like wow, I want to impress them, I want to make a good impression. And you find that the level of motivation, their effort, and their work is completely different. So a lot of psychology has been done, a lot of research has been done on the fact of when it is fear motivated, your actions are fear motivated, it's not going to be as lasting. And and it's going to create a

negative association. Isn't it also the case that, you know, when you when you are constantly using fear tactics, in the name of religion, in this case, to guilt somebody into doing what you want them to do? There, I noticed two things. The first of them I notice is that you it's it can't possibly be an act of love. Because your son, daughter, husband, wife, whoever are going to be miserable throughout, because you just told them if you don't do this angels will curse you, or allow, why would you talk to a loved one like that. So it's already, like it's a broken relationship, just because this kind of language is being used. That's one. The other thing is

obviously, you know, using fear as a motivator to get somebody to do something means they didn't have anything else in their arsenal. So just to give you an example, if a father is using fear tactics to get his son to do what he wants, then actually the father does not did not think the love or respect or courtesy or those things are there. So I have to use this, you're not gonna listen to me because of me. So might as well use Islam to get you to listen to me. Right? So which is actually an admission of how inadequate this person is in fulfilling their role in that relationship, isn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. If you're relying on using this kind of like the fear tactics and not

using love and compassion, because if you really want to guide your kids, if you want your wife if you're really worried about her and her guidance

And her offset, where a lot of people are claiming that they are, they wouldn't use that tax, because they feel like that that's been proven that is not effective. I have seen so many clients that they actually, you know, they use that fear, they control their, whether it's their wives, or their kids. And what they do actually, is that they drive them away from a slot. And they're individuals that I have that they they have left the slot, they'd go into some really terrible past because it creates a negative association, because they figure all the abuse that happened to them happened because Islam was the evidence used to justify that. Yeah, and even in countries where

things are being dictated in the name of Islam, people create this really negative association, and they make, you know, this rule equated to Islam and they have a negative association towards whether it's their parents or anything that has to do with the deen. So, you know, just on that note, I met a young woman who came up to me after a talk I did about the rights of parents. And obviously, in Islam, parents rights are a big deal there is, of course, the Hadith are very heavy on the subject. So she comes to me and she says, you know, every day, I go home, and if I don't put enough salt in the food, or if I if the water is not cold enough for my mother, she says lanakila May Allah curse

you. Like she literally has, you know, she, she just says it. And it really really hurts me. So what am I supposed to do? Is me? Because you said for that taco lahoma often Don't frown at them Don't Don't even say off to them. Just so does that work? When she's saying Mila curse you? And I, you know, because I get upset and I cry sometimes. So am I sinful for doing that. And I'm just glad,

man, it breaks my heart. I have clients that they talk about the actual not just verbal abuse, but the physical abuse sometimes parents. So sad when people use religion as a way of trying to control that. And so in the few minutes I have left with you, I wanted to highlight two questions. One of them is what are the possible roots of this kind of attitude? Like we're, you know, especially with, you know, let's say this is talking about parents towards children, even though this happens between husbands and wives also, right. But between parents and children? What would lead parents to start using this sort of tactic? That's one question. And what possible advice can we give to people that

are stuck in these abusive situations? Well, I would say that, first of all, education, if you have some knowledge on parenting, I think everyone is required to read some books, attend some lectures, have a tactic, because if a lot of times people just are ignorant, they are following whatever their parents did, and the parents did it out of force and out of beating, and so they just follow the imitate. And so I think when you have the knowledge, I mean, knowledge sets you free, right? So if you have that knowledge of psychology, and know how to appeal to someone, what can you know, how can you get your children to listen? How can you get the best out of your wife? How can you motivate

anyone? Do you think so the people that are

that sort of do this kind of thing, aren't interested into learning? They are not.

That's true. I mean, I figure on the one hand, it's kind of hard to talk to people that are engaged in the crime and say, don't do the crime, because I in childhood works, but it only goes so far. But you know, one of my thoughts on the origins of this, like where it comes from, is that, for example, in the culture, I come from the indo Pak culture, our mothers are

basically chained to the kitchen for 50 years, in a row, like they their life is just serving their family and they don't go out. They become socially isolated, as they get older. And, you know, they get more and more disconnected, especially the ones that move to Western societies, at least back home, there was the neighbor's house, he went there and there they everybody knew everybody kind of thing. But they moved to like England, or they moved to the US and the EU, to Australia. And there's nobody in the neighborhood so they're by themselves all day. And then they're like their mind starts playing tricks on them. And our our husbands aren't exactly the most, like supportive, our fathers

and our you know, their right. So they say all kinds of, you know, nobody likes you and this kind of stuff all set up all day and starts playing with their heads. So they develop this kind of the only I don't have any words, I'm worth nothing. The only time I have some worth is if I can get someone, my kids to do what I want. And the only way I can do that is by make them feel as terrible as I possibly can. So they'll use the most abusive language they can imagine, in the expectations that if I don't do this, what other reason would they have to listen to me because I'm worth nothing anyway. So I have to I have to use the nastiest language possible. Yes, yeah. And it's all the underlying

causes insecurity. Yeah, having insecurity, like you said, not having a sense of self worth, and not having a purpose. I really think that individuals who lack purpose in their life, they really go through the sense of depression and they do anything to cling on to people. They become very

needy. So what I do with my work with, with women who are older and they are facing this is to try to give them a sense of purpose in their life, like let's say, you know, you need to find something to be passionate about, maybe volunteer maybe to do something here or maybe nourish some kind of talent that you have. Because once they have that, then they feel their life is worth living, and they don't cling on to others. My own advice for people that are I mean, I raised a question of my own thoughts on this for people that are stuck in those kinds of relationships where they're being sort of

abused, and being taught to it this way, is, to me it's a litmus test, if somebody a loved one has to use the religion, to get you to get in line, that actually already means they are misusing the it's a litmus test for me, they're not using the IOD and the ahaadeeth the way they should be used, that's already you've entered the realm of abuse, like a parent who, you know, apparently child or having a, an argument about which college to apply to, or where to where to get married, and all of that, and they fill out the column often. Well, why did he sign it? If they do that, you know, this is actually already an indication that there's something much deeper wrong in this relationship. And

my advice to people that are stuck in that is they should not think of, yes, the author real and the guidance is real, but the way it's being used is abusive. So you don't guilt yourself into thinking, Oh, you know, what, I? Yeah, you're right, we'll be late. It's not like that. You have to, you have to fix those relationships, and sometimes kind of intervening and being honest, is important. You know, just to give you a scenario. Now, I want to get some practical advice. So I met a family where the father is just a financial wreck. I mean, the guy racks up credit card debt, you just piles it on, right? And he's got two sons, and one son doesn't do anything. And he even comes to that, Hey,

Dad, give me a new car, can you make jetski these stupid things, they don't even live in a place where there's water, but they have a jetski in their garage, right? So they'll, they'll do this stuff, or they'll get a car, motorcycle or whatever. But the older son is responsible. He's, you know, taking care of things, financial, things like that. And they'll

they'll just, I would just ask the older one he'll come through. So this poor guy every time the credit card debt racks up so much, he can't even pay the electricity bills anymore. It was called the older son, you need to write me a check that I can't right now. Oh, what kind of son are you? And then the Islamic quotations begin? Right? And so he guilt and then there's the grandfather calls from Pakistan. And, you know, and you need to write a check. And then he says, Okay, fine. And now this guy has no savings for himself. He's got no financial situation for his own family, his own kids, nothing, because he's constantly taking care of his father. But actually, those kinds of

cases, is he, the question he would have is, am I doing an Islamic observation? I'm like, Well, actually, you're enabling.

You know, if you want to just pure talk, the purely religion leave psychology out of it, you're helping your dad accumulate more rebar. Like, let's just even leave, you know, the cycle, which is abuse anyway, right? But then we'll be hungry man, Allah, he was really, you know, listen up to the announcement of war from alive, the messenger people who engage in drama, you're just helping your dad get more done, but you know, what he's going to do with the money, he's not going to make payments towards the debt, he's going to go get another, he's going to buy a memorial, motorized bicycle or something, that's what he's gonna get, you know, and he'll be back doing the same thing

again. So, and in those cases, you know, we have to make a distinction between the guidelines of Islam. And exceptional cases of abuse, where you have to actually stand up and you don't cross a line, you don't become angry and abusive yourselves. But you have to take a stand. To draw a line at least you have to draw a line and and indicate that I will support you for your for the livelihood or this the necessities. But when it becomes excessive like that, you're you're absolutely right. It is enabling the Father, and and he has a right for him himself and his family. So there has to be a clear line drawn. Thank you so much for this conversation. Students have questions if they do, I'll

open that up. And so there are situations where families are having some serious issues. And there are no mental health professionals in the Muslim community around. So what do you What's a right course of action? Because if you call social services, maybe they'll break up the family. So what are you supposed to do in case everybody in here? I think definitely you need to take action, maybe get a few people within the community, and to go in and talk to the brother and talk about the consequences. A case I had just this morning of the of the daughter being abused so much from the, from the Father that this the Child Protective Services did get involved, they did get involved, and

they had to clear it up and it can cause a lot of problems. So what you need to do is try to intervene

Try to give that brother some support, maybe he needs. Maybe you need anger management. I mean, these are things that are really basic basic skills that we don't have sometimes as a community. And if we set up something like let's say, even if someone if you don't have a trained professional, but maybe you could get some kind of a lecture, make sure that brother attends, and really try to intervene, because that those individuals, I mean, most of the cases that I have, are individuals who have been says, either physically or sexually abuse. And it's always been by like family members, and no one has done anything about it. So by us stepping up to that and trying to

intervene, you could do I mean, so much adger, and you can really protect the people involved.

Sisters and brothers again. So on the one hand, there's so much abuse, that they don't even feel a connection to their parents anymore. On the other hand, there's guilt, that if I go back, they're gonna do the same abuse again.

Yeah, so somebody was asking about parents that had a terrible relationship with their kids. But now these kids are like, in their 20s, and 30s. And now they don't want to stay in touch with their parents anymore, because of the kinds of mental abuse that was going on for a long time. And now they feel guilty, because you know, you can't just abandon your parents. But at the same time, they feel terrified, because if they go back to the same abuse, and start again,

you know, but this is, it's really sad, and sad and tragic When this happens, because these are the people that you are relying on, these are the people you entrusted. And it's really heartbreaking. When they don't follow through, and they're not, they're not really there for you. I think step number one is forgiveness, you have to be able to forgive and maybe actually, step one should be the acceptance of other understanding that certain things happen, that there's some wisdom behind it. And it's always good to ask yourself, What is good about the situation. And it, you know, you may think there's nothing good about abuse, but you could learn volumes from the abuse that you have,

you have endured, maybe you can break the cycle, you can help others who went through the abuse. So it's a matter of accepting the other, being being forgiving, and, and really trying to work through that I would recommend if a person has gone through this, get some counseling, you know, deal with your issues, because these emotional baggage is if you don't deal with them, you will carry them through life and it'll affect your marriage, it'll affect your, you know, your parenting skills. So it can't, but people can work through it.

These individuals, it's sometimes as a result of wanting to become very religious and very careful and very meticulous. But they do have obsessive compulsive disorder, and they don't realize it and and so it does play a role in that. There's a lot of illnesses that are not diagnosed. Unfortunately, you know, you have the bipolar, you have severe depression, where everyone just kind of accepts that, you know, the, the Auntie is just, you know, a little bit down, but it's, you know, it's clinically depressed and it's not being treated. And

obsessive compulsive disorder in, in a religious realm has to do with, let's say, the way they do we do. I had a client in Denmark, who would take up to 30 minutes to do their Whoo. And I, you know, just trying to make it perfect. And I think these individuals, they were taught by it, maybe as a bit of as like a staunch form of Islam of like, trying to be very meticulous, and they already had a tendency towards the obsessive compulsive nature. So it, it

demonstrates a perfect storm. And sometimes it's in the actual prayer. I've had clients who they are so obsessed with their level of axon, and their level of concentration in the prayer that they keep starting over, like this one, my one brother, he would repeat his prayers, like four to five times. And I would, you know, tell him that this is really gonna put a, you know, put a damper on you, and it's going to really drain you if you continue this. So prayer will do. Those are the two main areas. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for making the time and cello some opportunity for more fruitful conversation again, I thought this was a pretty important subject because I just see too much of it. I see way too much of it to at least get some word out about it. And and at least I don't know about your situations and don't come in and say like, I'll talk to you don't do that.

Talk to her achala barakallahu li ko I did. I did didn't I Monica lucky

Older and you know, they get more and more disconnected, especially the ones that move to Western societies at least back home, that was the neighbor's house and you went there and there they everybody knew everybody kind of thing. But they moved to like England or they moved to the US and they move to Australia. And there's nobody in the neighborhood so they're by themselves all day. And then they're like, their mind starts playing tricks on them in our in our husbands aren't exactly the most, like supportive, our fathers and our you know, their right. So they say all kinds of, you know, nobody likes you and this kind of stuff all set up all day and starts playing with their

heads. So they develop this kind of the only, I don't have any words, I'm worth nothing. The only time I have some worth is if I can get someone, my kids to do what I want. And the only way I can do that is by make them feel as terrible as I possibly can. So they'll use the most abusive language they can imagine, in the expectations that if I don't do this, what other reason? Would they have to listen to me? Because I'm worth nothing anyway. So I have to I have to use the nastiest language possible. It's sad. Oh, yes, yeah. And it's all the underlying cause is insecurity. Yeah, having insecurity, like you said, not having a sense of self worth, and not having a purpose, I really

think that individuals who lack purpose in their life, they really go through the sense of depression, and they do anything to cling on to people, they become very needy. So what I do with my work with, with women who are older, and they are facing this is to try to give them a sense of purpose in their life, like, let's say, you know, you need to find something to be passionate about, maybe we'll be late, it's not like that you have to, you have to fix those relationships, and sometimes kind of intervening and being honest, is important. You know, just to give you a scenario. Now, I want to get some practical advice. So I met a family where the father is just a financial

wreck. I mean, the guy racks up credit card debt, you just piles it on, right? And he's got two sons, and one son doesn't do anything. And he even comes to that, Hey, Dad, give me a new car. And he made jetski. He, he does stupid things. They don't even live in a place where there's water, but they have a jetski in their garage. Right? So they'll, they'll do this stuff, or they'll get a car, motorcycle or whatever. But the older son is responsible. He's, you know, taking care of things, financial, things like that. And they'll

they'll just a whole bunch of stuff, the older one he'll come through. So this poor guy every time the credit card debt racks up so much he can't even pay the electricity bills anymore. It's called the older son, you need to write me a check that I can't right now. Oh, what kind of son are you? And then the Islamic quotations begin? Right. And so he Gill, and then there's the grandfather calls from Pakistan. And, you know, and you need to write a check. And then he says, Okay, fine. And now this guy has no savings for himself. He's got no financial situation for his own family, his own kids, nothing, because he's constantly taking care of his father. But actually, those kinds of

cases, is he the question he would have is, am I doing an Islamic observation? I'm like, Well, actually, you're enabling,

you know, if you want to just pure talks about the drive them away from Islam, and they're individuals that I have that day. They have left Islam, they go into some really terrible paths, because it creates a negative association, because they figure all the abuse that happened to them happen, because Islam was the evidence used to justify that. Yeah. And even in countries where things are being dictated in the name of Islam, people create this really negative association and they make you know, this rule equated to Islam and they have a negative association towards whether it's their parents or anything that has to do with the deen, synonymous or, you know, just on that

note, I met a young woman who came up to me after a talk I did about the rights of parents and obviously in Islam, parents rights are a big deal there are the Hadith are very heavy on the subject. So she comes to me and she says, you know, every day I go home, and if I don't put enough salt in the food, or if I if the water is not cold enough for my mother, she says lanakila May Allah curse you. Like she literally has, you know, she she just says it, and it really really hurts me. So what am I supposed to do? Is me because you said for that the hula hula ofin Don't frown at them Don't Don't even say off to them. Just so does that work? When she's saying Mila curse you? And I,

you know, because I get upset and I cry sometimes. So am I sinful for doing that? And I'm just going, man, it breaks my heart. I have clients that they talk about the actual not just verbal abuse, but the physical way of abusing their kids as a way of threatening them. And if you see that this is a form of fear motivation. And if you look at the psychology of instilling fear in a person, you find that the person may adhere while the person in authority is present. But when you're fear motivated, it's all about like not getting caught. And if it is, when it's instilled within you when you have love for a person and when you have respect for a person then you

We're more motivated to to do things and you do it willingly and happily, not out of just fear. So you find that let's say we give an example of, of two students, one student fears the heck out of their teacher. And it's all about, I don't want to get in trouble, I don't want to be punished. And then the other, the other student is more motivated, because they love that teacher, and they feel like, wow, I want to impress them, I want to make good impression. And you find that the level of motivation, their effort, and their work is completely different. So a lot of psychology has been done, a lot of research has been done on the fact of when it is fear motivated, your actions are

fear motivated, it's not going to be as lasting. And, and it's going to create a negative association. Isn't it also the case that, you know, when you when you are constantly using fear tactics, in the name of religion, in this case, to guilt somebody into doing what you want them to do? There, I noticed two things. The first of them I notice is that you it's it can't possibly be and even in countries where things are being dictated in the name of a farm, people create this really negative association. And they make, you know, this rule equated to Islam, and they have a negative association towards whether it's their parents or anything that has to do with the dean. So

Pamela, so you know, just on that note, I met a young woman who came up to me after a talk I did about the rights of parents and obviously, in Islam, parents rights are a big deal. There are a lot of these are very heavy on the subject. So she comes to me and she says, you know, every day, I go home, and if I don't put enough salt in the food, or if I if the water is not cold enough for my mother, she says lanakila May Allah curse you. Like she literally has, you know, she, she just says it. And it really really hurts me. So what am I supposed to do? is me, too, because you said that the hula hula often Don't frown at them don't don't don't even say off to them. Just so does that

work? When she's saying, may Allah curse you? And I, you know, because I get upset and I cry sometimes. So am I sinful for doing that, and I'm just going, man, it breaks my heart, I have clients that they talk about the actual not just verbal abuse, but the physical abuse sometimes. It's so sad when people use religion as a way of, of trying to control that. And so in the few minutes I have left with you, I wanted to highlight two questions. One of them is what are the possible roots of this kind of attitude. Like we're, you know, a lot of illnesses that are not diagnosed, unfortunately, you know, you have the bipolar, you have severe depression, where everyone

just kind of accepts that, you know, the, the Auntie is just, you know, a little bit down, but it's, you know, it's clinically depressed, and it's not being treated. And

obsessive compulsive disorder in, in a religious realm has to do with, let's say, the way they do we do. I had a client in Denmark, who would take up to 30 minutes to do there with you. And I, you know, just trying to make it perfect. And I think these individuals, they were taught by it, maybe as a bit of us, like a staunch form of Islam of like, trying to be very meticulous, and they already had a tendency towards the obsessive compulsive nature. So it turns

them in a perfect storm. And sometimes it's in the actual prayer, I've had clients who they are so obsessed with their level of axon, and their level of concentration in the prayer that they keep starting over, like this one, my one brother, he would repeat his prayers, like four to five times, and I would, you know, tell him that this is really gonna put a, you know, put a damper on you, and it's going to really drain you if you continue this. So prayer will do. Those are the two main areas. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for making the time and shallow some opportunity for more fruitful can really worried about her and her guidance and her offset, where a lot of people are claiming that they are, they wouldn't use that tax, because they feel like that that's been proven, that is not effective. I have seen so many clients that they actually you know, they use that fear, they control their whether it's their wives, or their kids. And what they do actually, is that they drive them away from Islam. And they're individuals that I have that day. They have left Islam, they'd go into some really terrible past because it creates a negative association, because they figure all the abuse

that happened to them happened because Islam was the evidence used to justify exactly yeah, and even in countries where things are being dictated in the name of Islam, people create this really negative association and they make, you know, this rule equated to Islam and they have a negative association towards whether it's their parents or anything that has to do with the deen. So, you know, just on that note, I met

A young woman who came up to me after a talk I did about the rights of parents. And obviously, in Islam, parents rights are a big deal there is, of course, a very heavy on the subject. So she comes to me and she says, you know, every day, I go home, and if I don't put enough salt in the food, or if I if the water is not cold enough for my mother, she says, lanakila May Allah curse you. Like she literally has, you know, she said, she just says it. And it really, really hurts me. So what am I supposed to do? Is me way of abusing their kids as a way of threatening them. And if you see that this is a form of fear motivation. And if you look at the psychology of instilling fear in a person,

you find that the person may adhere while the person in authority is present. But when you're fear motivated, it's all about like, not getting caught. And if it is, when it's instilled within you, when you have love for a person, and when you have respect for a person, then you are more motivated to to do things and you do it willingly and happily, not out of just fear. So you find that let's say we give an example of, of two students, one student fears the heck out of their teacher, and it's all about I don't want to get in trouble, I don't want to be punished. And then the other, the other student is more motivated, because they love that teacher, and they feel like wow, I want to

impress them, I want to make a good impression. And you find that the level of motivation, their effort, and their work is completely different. So a lot of psychology has been done, a lot of research has been done on the fact of when it is fear motivated, your actions are fear motivated, it's not going to be as lasting. And and it's going to create a negative association. Isn't it also the case that, you know, when you when you are constantly using fear tactics, in the name of religion, in this case, to guilt somebody into doing what you want them to do there, I noticed two things, the first of them I notice is that you it's it can't possibly be and has this kind of

language is being used. That's one the other thing is

obviously, you know, using fear as a motivator to get somebody to do something means they didn't have anything else in their arsenal. So just to give you an example, if a father is using fear tactics to get his son to do what he wants, then actually the father does not did not think the love or respect or courtesy are those things are there. So I have to use this, you're not going to listen to me because of me. So might as well use Islam to get you to listen to me. Right? So which is actually an admission of how inadequate this person is in fulfilling their role in that relationship, isn't it? Absolutely. If you're relying on using this kind of like the fear tactics,

and not using love and compassion, because if you really want to guide your kids, if you want your wife, if you're really worried about her and her guidance and her offset, where a lot of people are claiming that they are they wouldn't use that tack, because they feel like that, that's been proven that is not effective. I have seen so many clients that they actually you know, they use that fear they control their whether it's their wives, or their kids. And what they do actually is that they drive them away from Islam, and they're individuals that I have that day. They have left the slum, they'd go into some really terrible past because it creates a negative association, because they

figure all the abuse that happened to them happened because Islam was the evidence used to justify