Channel: Haifaa Younis
© No part of this transcript may be copied or referenced or transmitted in any way whatsoever. Transcripts are auto-generated and thus will be be inaccurate. We are working on a system to allow volunteers to edit transcripts in a controlled system.
So you didn't have Mohammed. While early he was happy he as nine as salam Wa alaykum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh. This is Anna been sorry here and it is my great pleasure to welcome our esteemed audience members in our respected Michelle to a special program. This program is a joint effort of Jenna Institute and tastier seminary. And this is Sunday, July 3. And I know we probably have a global audience but it's Sunday, July 3 at a 7pm Eastern 4pm Pacific and for international guests Inshallah, to Allah I will be introducing the program and kind of giving a bit of historical context about why this topic is so is so important. So welcome, wherever you're joining us from, we are
delighted to have all of you with us tonight, and from whatever timezone that you're joining us from. My name is Dana and sorry. And I am one of the faculty members at tastier seminary, which is based in Knoxville in East Tennessee in the United States. And the delightful program and speakers that we have tonight, really kind of represent
the leading voices in Islamic scholarship. And I'm just so happy to have this panel that We've convened. And I do want to mention, Inshallah, just kind of by way of kind of an announcement for everybody here, the subject that we're discussing tonight is intended for mature listeners only. So I would really advise that if there are children here, if there are younger folks that parents would be advised that this is intended again for a mature listening audience. Now, for those of you in the United States, you obviously understand the importance of this historical moment, you know that we are really experiencing a time within the context of the United States, where society is incredibly
polarized. I mean, this idea of red states and blue states is something that is really getting to be a very kind of firmed dividing line within the United States, where literally people are beginning to kind of self aggregate around the political views that they hold. And really at the center of this, this the so called Culture Wars is this idea of reproductive autonomy, abortion, pro life pro choice. So what I'm going to do in sha Allah Tala, before I hand it over to our esteemed match, I can introduce them. I just want to give everybody a sense of why we are having this conversation tonight. So on Friday, June 24, just last week, the Supreme Court of the United States of America
overturn the 1973 landmark decision, entitled Roe versus Wade, and a 78 page opinion authored by Justice Samuel Alito, a little was joined by the conservative majority Clarence Thomas, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett, and in this seven eight page ruling allele, a pined that the 1973 landmark case Roe v Wade was egregiously wrong and must be overruled, essentially arguing, my dear listeners, dear sisters, dear brothers, essentially arguing that the United States Constitution does not give women the right to seek an abortion. Now, what happened was, you know, again, this tension that really is kind of being manifested in society sort of writ large, is being
manifested in the court itself. I mean, the opinion was leaked about a month ago, and Chief Justice John Roberts, who was appointed by George W. Bush,
his kind of incremental, his kind of incremental gradual approach to effecting change on the Supreme Court was completely undercut by the by the majority opinion. So what John Roberts did was he issued a concurrent opinion, basically expressing reservations over the very sweeping broad nature of the majority ruling, calling it a serious jolt to the legal system. And in his concurrent decision, he expressed the preference that he would have just really kind of limited the conversation around abortion to upholding this Mississippi law. That was really the the case they were deciding, which would ban abortion after 15 weeks, again, calling the majority opinion a serious jolt to the legal
system. So the dissenting opinion was authored by the three liberal justices on the Supreme Court, Elena Kagan, Sonia Sotomayor and Stephen Breyer, and justice Catan G. Brown Jackson, obviously, not having been sworn in, when this case was was brought before the court. So the dissenting opinion by by justices Kagan, Sotomayor and Breyer expressed dismay. And one of the things that they wrote was that young women and I'm quoting young women today will come of age with fewer rights than their mothers and grandmothers that from the very moment of fertilization, what they are saying is that from the very moment of fertilization, a woman has now no right no rights to speak of. She can that
that a state can force her to bring a pregnancy to term even at the steepest personal familial costs. So we have a Supreme Court
that has brought this ruling with the dissenting opinion expressing a lot of dismay. And I believe with NPR finding today National Public Radio finding today that while it does appear as if the conservative views on this on this subject from from from it from the Supreme Court, juridical standpoint, are sort of in ascendancy, that this is not really reflecting the culture at large. So the reason why I wanted to convene this discussion tonight, my dear listeners is because the Muslim I don't want to say the the Muslim voices if there's a singular Muslim voice, I really believe that Muslim voices that carry scholarly authority really missing from this debate, the Washington Post,
put out a piece last week where they brought stories of young Muslim women who have sought out abortions essentially arguing that the Islamic position on this as a position of mercy and allowance but I what I really want to do with the discussion tonight, Inshallah, to Allah is learn from our esteemed scholars to understand what perhaps, is the nuance that exists within Islamic tradition, when it comes to the topic of reproductive freedom or, or or, or abortions. Now, you know, of course, we all have access to social media. So I do want to note that there have been prominent scholars, male scholars who have said we should celebrate this, this overturning of Roe v. Wade,
that as a Muslim community, we ought to join forces with the Christian right, and really kind of get behind this, the overturning of Roe v. Wade. And there have been some dissenting opinions, if you will, and also some opinions coming from more progressive or feminist
Muslim scholars as well. So those those views are out there, and I want to acknowledge them. But what I want to really emphasize for tonight is that our esteemed speakers, Dr. Shayla, Haifa Yunus and Dr. Sheikh Hasina ich hab represent a traditional scholarship, but also a great deal of insight into the concerns of modern modern day Muslims. One final thing in addition to ensuring that you don't have very young listeners for this program, because again, these this is a mature subject, I also want to to request because I know that we're being joined by audience members from all over via Facebook and YouTube live platforms, I would imagine questions are probably already coming in or
about to come in. So I would really, I would really like to. Well, not just suggest, but I'm going to insist that comments be kept relevant questions be succinct, and that we respect the scholarship of our teachers and manifest the best idea or the best of Islamic etiquette. All right, so with that, it is my great pleasure to introduce our first speaker tonight. Shayla Dr. haisa Yunus who is a board certified OBGYN, and she is the founder of gender Institute. And you know, for people that that know me, I tend not to kind of read out bios, what I really want to say is that you really know the caliber of the scholar from their work from their students, and from the personal impact that
they have on your life. And when I think about Shayla haisa, I think about a teacher I think about a mentor I think about a spiritual mother of all of us. And I think about someone that literally welcomed me and my children into her home without really knowing a lot about us, letting us play with her cats benefiting from her sorry about her amazing companionship but the reason why I wanted her to be our first speakers that she brings together the best of both worlds again, traditional or Lucia yeah Islamic Studies and she is a board certified OBGYN. So saffron welcome dearest doctor hey fat we are honored this Menachem know and hello so that was salam ala Rasulillah while early he was
so happy woman well deserved she has no I don't deserve all this May Allah make me better than what people think of me and forgive what they don't know about me it's a pleasure I always share has a never has a special place in my heart before she was my guest and we spent beautiful time and even now even more she knows that she's also one of our really gonna be our guest teacher this year for the whole year program. In Jana Institute, the year of knowledge, may Allah reward you wanted more from her, but I do understand how difficult this is so hamdullah it's a pleasure and it's an honor. And my last pantalla I always say this, make me speak what pleases Him. And this is the most
important thing and I'm going to ask everybody on the chat. This is a very polarized sensitive topic. And there is no right and wrong if we don't look at it through the lens of Allah subhanaw taala we're gonna look through which state I live. And I'm addressing especially my beautiful audience from the United States, because if you're outside the United States, you don't feel what we are feeling. So don't look at it.
From the view of which state you live, or I am a woman, or I am a man, or I am a Democrat, or I'm a Republican, I want you to look at it from only one lens, and it's the lens of Allah subhanaw taala. This is how we will become fear. And this is how when we speak, and when we give an opinion, it is not my opinion, or your opinion, or the judge's opinion, or the political leader opinion. It is Allah's opinion. So this is extremely important. And especially when you write a comment, let's all as she beautifully said Sheikh Hasina. Let's use a stomach advocate, or Suarez autosen Never ever accused anyone called anyone names and labeled people. Let's stop doing this. It's all open our
hearts. And let's see, what does Allah want us to know? That he put us in this day and age that we live this majority of us? Were not there when Roe versus Wade came up? And I actually looked up the case completely. And I wanted to see what is this and then the row is actually not the not the real name of the woman. It was actually in Texas, it's a woman, her name is naturo. They gave her a row just because of like a nickname. And it was two lawyers, females who wanted to look at the abortion debate.
The question is, and this is what we need to start with, what does Allah says about this? And what does Islam say about this as Muslims, and then I'm going to bring medicine but I'm not going to speak as a physician, I'm going to speak as a Muslim physician. We all need to not forget our identity. It may be with this political view or the other of you. But this is not my point. My point. My opinion is Allah's opinion, what's he taught me and through the Rasul Allah insight, or some, of course, through the Quran through Roswaal, as AutoSum and through the scholars. So what is abortion to start with? A choice, a woman's choice, I have a choice in my body, I don't have a
choice. The poor the politician has to decide for me. Abortion in general, it depends which part of the world you live. That word has different meaning. If you live in England, abortion means a woman who's going to lose the pregnancy intentionally or unintentionally. If you live in the United States, abortion mean abortion termination of pregnancy, the woman for whatever the reason decided to not continue with this pregnancy not spontaneous spontaneous in the United States is called miscarriage. So you all have to be very careful when you use this word for all the beautiful viewers may Allah reward all of you that when you use this word in public miscarriage mean the woman lost
the baby unintentionally, not by absolutely not a choice. She just lost the pregnancy. Abortion, it means she was part of the decision to terminate the pregnancy. So that's number one. Now the main debate, what does Islam says about it? Are we Pro or Pro as she has in a beautifully said it? Are we pro life, or we are pro abortion? Number one as Muslims that you all have to remember that Islam came in to save five things to protect five things. And the first one is life. Life, the deen the religion of so they call it neffs life, the religion and then Harpal the the intellect and then the honor arable and then the wealth. All the while the course Mark also the Sharia all what Islam
rulings comes is to protect these five
So when Allah subhanaw taala says do that, that means these are protected or when Allah subhanaw taala said don't do that, that's these five are protected. This is the sphere we almost don't have to look at. Unfortunately, some of us don't know this. Not explained not taught. But you always have to come with this. You're clean inside you. That's when Allah subhanaw taala put a ruling to do or not to do. It's absolutely beneficial for me. Where you Hello Hola, como Eva wahama where you're hailing. Lokomotiva Hora Malik Marhaba. Allah in general, everything is good for me is halal. And everything that is not good for me is haram. I have to come in every debate in every question, even
the debate inside me, I do it or I don't do it. But that doesn't make sense. That's hard. I have to remember this space. This space is this basic principle. Everything Allah said do is good for me. And Allah said don't do that's not good for me. What did Allah says about the abortion? That's the question in the Quran, the what we see we see the sanctuary of life. Life is absolutely sanctuary for Muslims. Here we are with
If you want to use the word we agree with the conservative, we are pro life because that's what Allah said not because we have this political opinion right in the end of social and our culture Hello through mahalo Mara buco Malik come on in come let me tell you what Allah made unlawful for you a lattice Rico Be sure you do not associate very well Edenia Santa and then he goes when I talk to enough salatu haram Allah do not kill the knifes the life that the soul that Allah made it sets sacred except certain reasons. Ilana when I talk to her enough said that you haram Allah Allah will help how clear is truth me there is a reason. So this is I come to this debate as a Muslim woman
with what Allah number one tal taught me that knifes is absolutely century it's a Roswaal ASR to ascertain the meaning of he was doing power around Kaaba, this is the time of Hajj. And he said the Muslim life the Muslim blood, Muslim blood is more sanctuary than this cabin, this house that this place that this month. So I am pro life as a Muslim, but Islam does not have extremism. There is no either or, there is always reasons for doing things, changing the rulings and they say liquidity. Mikami McCall. Every situation has a certain statement. I can't come and say absolutely, there is no miscarriage, there is no abortion period. And I can't come and say you know what? It's the woman
choice completely. And she can decide as a Muslim woman? No, there's a frame.
And the frame is what Allah subhanaw taala sets as physicians. The question that debate, which also the AHA has the same debate is when is life? When does the baby become a human being a small time you want inside the uterus, I'm going to start I'm going to try to avoid using medical terms. We have fetus, and we have we have fetus, and we have an embryo embryo and we have a fetus. embryo is the first eight weeks of pregnancy. And then fetus is still the way we deliver and then becomes an infant. When in this 40 weeks of pregnancy. When does the Baby Alive?
Islamically when does the soul is being birthed into that that's where the debate because we as Muslims, once the life is being birthed inside the fetus or the embryo, then terminating that pregnancy has to be really looked at carefully. Again, I'm not going to say no at all. I'm gonna say carefully, because now I have to balance the sanctuary of life of that unborn human being. And the benefits why I won't I am thinking so it's always balanced. No Masato, this is what I want all our viewers to remember. We are a nation. Allah created us. Okay. Delica Jehan. Now come on method was ALLAH, ALLAH said this was what would work. And therefore, and this is how we made you an issue of
balance, balance. We are not this or we are that the balance comes in. I have two lives now.
Which one is more important? Islam agree. Everybody agree that when the life of the mother is above is in danger? If we continue the pregnancy, then you will terminate the pregnancy? And there is no question about it provided three Muslim physicians attest that this is a life threatening condition. And again, without going through medical details, but yes, there is certain cardiac conditions where the woman absolutely will die. The past, of course, we don't know for sure, but the possibility of death is very high.
Then the life of the mother comes first, and you terminate the pregnancy. So here you go. Now when you come into the mother is not in danger. Is it absolutely not allowed at all? Or is it allowed? So all of you, I want you to analyze it, move emotions out, look through the lens of Allah subhanaw taala. And that was why they sought to sell him what he taught me and you and what the jurists say, and I'm sure she herself will probably elaborate more than me on this point. So if the mother life is in danger, agreed upon by three
You must turn physicians or if there is no Muslim physicians, qualified physicians that if she continue, I have seen it. Absolutely. I have seen it, the mother will die, there's no question about it, then then terminating the pregnancy is actually in Islam is almost an obligation because you need to save the life of the mother and the life of the mother supersede the life that is not born yet. Now remove that part. And now you come and say, What about the rest? What about the woman doesn't want the pregnancy? Here we come the debate forced the question how far she is? Because in the hadith of Rasul Allah salatu salam, which I'm sure I can share, Hassan is going to comment and
it's, it's this is the most frequent hadith is brought up in this debate. It's an Al Bukhari narrated by Satan and beloved numerous ODE what was what you saw to a sunnah commented in the other coverage Matthew what ni Fe are buying a home not for
the US, the US all of us or and he mentioned the stages of creation Subhan Allah, the stages of creation that we studied in embryology, as a physician, he mentioned that I saw torsa More than 1400 years ago, that we all are created number one will come from not fun, spoiled water, which is the sperm and the egg, egg is from the woman and the sperm from the man they meet. And then pregnancy starts. This is usually by about six days, after intercourse after the intimate relationship. This is formed now. We call it zygote which means the sperm entered the egg and then moves it through the fallopian tube columns in the uterus Subhanallah Delilah who is going to attach the wall of the
uterus and this becomes us after nine months. So here what for and not for both came together. Right? And Allah said this in detail sought me noon. Yeah you are not in control of uranium mineral bathy inner holla Conoco people are you in doubt that we will you will be resurrected while look at how you were created in Wehrli. We Harlequinade created you from not spoiled sperm
not fighting some Yeah, we're not going to hear a minute but if Nakhla cannot come make no this is I'm sorry, Phil Hodge in the morning on assorted what we know and Debbie rivers, Allah speak about them, right? That's not fun than fat. I love that zygote attached to the wall of the uterus leash, leeched attached Allah and then for HELOC Nila Nakata mobile, then this Solokha gets bigger. Up to now we're not even even six weeks, not six weeks pregnancy, then the Halacha become mobile, chewable flesh. And this is usually about for a few days more pregnancy for halacha than mobile water a Obama then this mobile becomes an from it created bones and now we are about eight weeks, some Casona FACA
Sona and a bomb a llama then the bones are covered with muscles. Now eight weeks finished, embryo finished then becomes the fetus some and the only time Allah in this verse he says to me, then HELOC now how can I better BarakAllahu Assad?
In this after eight weeks the baby is formed. Now you can see hands you can see arms, you can see legs you can see head you can see body and for sure you see fetal heart. In fact, fetal heart is at six weeks. Where is the soul here?
Is this eight weeks baby is a living human being. That's where the debate comes in. Because when is the war the soul will be breath into this. Most of this color is based on the hadith of rasa risotto, or the 40 days, 40 days, 40 days they say 16 weeks when the soul is going to be brought in. I need to know this as a Muslim. Why? Because it's not black and white. It depends on the time. So after 16 weeks, for sure, no different opinion. The soul has already brought inside this new to about to be a human being. And here is the red line 16 weeks after saving the life of the mother in certain cases. If there is a congenital anomaly in the baby that will not be consistent with law
If they may give
a permission for abortion, and of course, there's a different, different complete scenario. If this is a rape pregnancy, this is a completely different. The difference opinion is about before six weeks, 40 days, the first 40 days, where the scholars are very lenient, accepted Imam Malik. But the scholar says, if there is a possibility of a hardship, and then as we go further till the 16 weeks, this hardship needs to be real realistic, and it is really hardship. Some scholars will tell you, the woman feels that I have three I have a young boy with a one year old, and now I am pregnant, this may may cause a difficulty on me scholars differ, some will tell you yes. And some will tell
you no. What do we need to learn?
Number one, their stages.
Number 216 weeks is that a deadline less than six weeks or 14 days is the Linnaean. The debate is in here. In between. In general, in general, life is sacred. And if I leave that eight weeks baby at eight weeks fetus, and we do not abort, the possibility that this will continue to become a living human being is about 85% Because the spontaneous abortion in medicine is about 15% in every pregnancy. So I need to think as a woman and as a physician because I counsel woman, I see Muslim and non Muslim. And when I counsel a non Muslim, I don't bring my Hispanic background right away I talk to her as a patient. And of course I bring also the sanctuary, sanctity of life. So for us as
Muslims, we have to be balanced. Look at what Allah told us and we should not be this way or that way. Rather, what Allah subhanaw taala want us to do? I just summarized it. I don't want to take a lot of the time because we agreed we each of us will speak about 15 minutes so we leave for you all the questions but again I'm going to end up by if I have said anything right is from Allah only if I said anything wrong is from me my ignorance my the impact of shaitan only I seek refuge in Allah that I say something and I don't practice it and I will ask again remind what a beautiful viewers mashallah we have a good number of them that let us put always the lens of Allah as if some of you
if you know me, I always use this always when you talk when you make decision when you give your opinion. Make sure you see it through Allah's lens, not my neffs or yours or other people does that Kamala O'Hara May Allah reward you spanic lava Morbihan the eyeshadow and like the Haisla and stuff you look forward to Rex a lot to say no Mohammed while it was hobby to Stephen cathedra.
Article I think he just like McClair mashallah Shayla, hey fi thank you for that enlightening presentation. And I really love the way that Shayla framed the discussion. You know, I know opinions, feelings are strong. I know that again, as a country we're polarized. I know that for a lot of young folks who might be kind of leaning towards progressive viewpoints on this issue, or you know, some of there are some conservative stances by scholars on social media and what have you. And we have to make sure that we go back to the fundamentals and the basics here. We go back to that foundation for all of us as practicing Muslims. And that foundation has what the guidance in the
Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet alayhi salatu salam so I really appreciate that. Again, this is the beauty of the Shetty, I literally shut it down means what it means that source of life giving water, and I'm so happy that we can have this conversation tonight. Now it is my great pleasure and honor to bring Dr Hassan ash hub to the microphone, so shall Hassan before Sheikh Hassan begins again, you will know I don't read out BIOS I speak from the heart. And you know, one of the things I do at tayseer, the title that I have officially is women's scholar in residence. And I will say this, for all of the sisters that are saying well we don't have male supporters and allies and our
Messiah don't understand I want all the ladies to know all the sisters to know that the work that I do at tastier would not be possible without the support of Justice and the hashtag who was my teacher and mentor. And I'm delighted to have him here tonight for this conversation because we need to understand these issues also impact men as well. And we want to learn from your customer as well his perspective on this critical topic. So Chuck awesome, welcome. We are so honored to have you with us. When we mentioned real fast everybody Chuck hasn't has again. Again the best of both worlds. He studied under machina from Morocco data fed even has an idea and has a doctorate from
University of Indiana. Bloomington. Welcome Shaha Sebastian thank you so much.
Because I can have a really really
awesome Allahu wa salam O Matic animal and obviously, early on so have you seen the schema my did regarding tanks are to Haifa and to citizen a for organizing this platform for all of us to share some of what we think about and the whole country is thinking about this right now. And it's a great opportunity to share what we want you to share about it but at the same time to hear what the community is saying about it and to just gauge where the public sentiment of this within the Muslim is so good, he loves you now she loves loves the manner in
which the most celebrated or or to celebrate or to cry for, for European way. From my from my side, I'm not celebrating archive, those who are celebrating are the people that I disagree with those who are those who are crying are the people that I fundamentally disagree with. So the idea that that those are celebrating and a lot of Muslims are celebrating with with the with the conservatives, and I see I see that the hypocrisy of the of the conservatives in here because if you really care about life, really care about life let's let's do something about gun control.
The same people who are up in arms about about Roe vs. Wade and they want to they want to abolish it and they are against and against abortion of that most of them are against our against any laws to organize, to, to organize the utilization of guns. Now, mind you that every single day right now every single week, we're having children killed in schools, the same and the same people are against any serious reform of the judiciary system. The people who are dying and being killed systematically in the minority has been killed systematically in the in the jails and all of that. So, yes, there is a win for them. But it's not a more when it is not a moral one. It's a political one, but it's
not a moral one, because they don't have the moral moral.
Those are and I mean, also the religious, the religious right, the religious right. The last you may have when a political battle, but they are losing the moral argument for sure. Regarding this topic, and many other topics. So if they're really worried about life, let's see what they're going to do with the children who is going to be what are they doing with their health, they are against a health care option for the children a universal health health health care option that will solve the issue of a lot of poor and destitute people. Most of the of the states that the government that the the the Republicans are taking care of have dismal health care options, that's for sure. For the
women as well as for the for the children, and so on and so forth. So if you're really in care, we care about life, we really care about, you know, what about that area. So the hypocrisy is fragmented here. And it's extremely,
extremely clear to everybody. And the other side I can be happy with I can be I can be crying with the liberals, because because how could I cry for people who are, you know, for 606, more than more than 900,000 abortion that happened on the database that happened every single year in America, I mean, without discrimination, without discrimination. So this idea in here, I know that a lot of these abortions are done, because of health issues and so on and so forth. But at the same time, same time, the sanctity of life, and to care for the values, the values of the of the, the values of the marriage and the various relationships that are that are that are
foundational to make an a society have been eroded by by by A, by A religious
lysosome. They are by a very, very strong religious
secularism. So the idea in here is that you know, I am celebrating I'm coming to celebrate on the crime. The other thing is that nobody takes the opinion of the Muslims in any public issue no whatsoever. Our voice, it doesn't matter. So people are saying, Oh, the Imams are saying this. Remember saying that? Nobody, nobody took our opinion in this regard. Nobody cared for our opinions. For God. We're doing this because we are a part in because we are impacted by it for sure. But because we want to make sure that our Muslim community is educated about it. And we know what Allah Allah says about it. And we know at the boundaries of our religions about it so we can adhere to
them. So we can represent the prophets of Allah to use him in the best way. There is no solution
to the quagmire or to the quagmire of the modern men, including the abortion and including the gender issues, except that we adhere to the rope of Alaska.
challah there is clear, there is an muddied by the liberal quote unquote, universal values. So just I just had to have to, had to mention that is extremely important. Liberal liberalism doesn't want us to have an identity liberalism does, whether you agree with us completely, or we destroy you, or you're not, or you're against us and so on. And that that type of militarism, that type of militant ism, in, in the, in the matters of ideas is scary from the liberal from the liberal side, as well. So we don't have an impact, and nobody takes our opinion, no whatsoever. So this is an internal discussion for all of us to learn, and to into, into into and to be educated. The other important
introduction that I wanted to talk about is that
we understand, we understand that this issue of abortion, this is something that is kind of spoken about long time ago, it's not a new thing, that the greatest
the greatest scholars have spoken about this, you find it in the books, Africa all over in all the major hip, modern scholars, helped by doctors and people are doing research in the medical field had been issuing fatwas about this since the beginning of the 20th century. So there is plenty of literature regarding abortion, this is not a new thing for us to do some HD head there is all the cases and all the scenarios that had to do with abortion are all in blocked, and circled and surrounded by the ACA of Sharia by the British side. The only thing that we need to find ourselves doing is to ask ourselves, what is what is our what is our what is our foundation? What is the
platform that we start from to judge the rightness that to judge the right from the wrong? Is it the liberal the universal liberal values? Is it conservatism? Or is it the Quran and Sunnah of the Prophet of Islam, as it was traditionally analyzed and understood, and synthesized by the generations of the scholars and the modality and the tradition? What is our what is the the question to this answer? The the answer to this question in here can be fine. What what is that? What is the way we're going to take regarding this? So in matters of fact,
there are three 100 Different organizers I'm not talking about the hadith of as I'm not talking about the hadith of three of
the before the the job of the before this terms get into the warmth of the I'm not talking about this. There are plenty of athletes that are extremely strong, but not even not even doing right. And that we're not getting into that. I'm talking about that. How do you organize the issue of abortion that all this color stem from all the opinions stem from these from these from these three highlights? The first one is Hadith. Imam Bukhari Muslim, Shiva, Haifa, if I had mentioned it
with the Prophet salallahu Alaihe, Salam said,
that that's the person will be, the person will be collected or gathered in the womb of his mother for the days as I'm not far and then from that photo alaka and then you call him without him with the tag. So 40 days, 40 days, 40 days, some males have your cell in a millisecond and Angel will be sent it to the person at the to the baby or to the fetus at the ad after ad 120 days to blow the soul in inhibit on her. Right, and then it continues. So it mentions clearly 123 So 40 days, 40 days, 40 days, and then the angel comes in and then does the soul and so on. And then the second opinion, the second highest volume Muslim, and how do you mean how do you see for these nurses on
seem to be fairly large and one of the great Sahaba was from the people who gave allegiance to the Prophet sallallahu Sallam in in Libya and so on. So those well known zahavi lived in a quarter and he died in there. You said send me I told us who Allah is Allah was going to call
you there are Robin Latif, Nanny What about only later when after the drop of the semen or the sperm get into the womb
42 days so remains in there 42 days all the developments have been 42 Nights. Then Allah Allah Allah will send an Angel and then he will fashion it. So the furious will have will have will be fashion will be will be will take start taking shape.
And then we'll create and then we'll fashion its hearing and its sight and its skin and its flesh and its bones
Right. And and then and then he says ARB other Coronavirus. And then he said he decided about the gender and so on and so forth. But this has clearly states for the to the for tonight's right. And then we come to the opinions that comes from this, the third party to
avoid over the long term. I know that two ladies from the tribe of Bennett who they fought together, one of them hit the other one with a rock, the other one was pregnant, she killed her and killed the baby inside the prophets, Allah on a limb said that she has to pay this has to free a slave for the baby who has been killed. The pacifism gave full agency to the person to the baby who was who was still in the womb of his mother. So from these habits, and with the cases that happened in the time of the scholars, scholars defied scholars were different and varied on this issue on Madhavi lines. So chef for example, the chef theory will go accept has accepted not because Elijah has a very
strict opinion regarding this exam because he believes that the moment the sperm touch the touch the egg
and there is a possibility of life. He talks about possibility of life. Winter right I was just started doing a caboodle hire this is his and it's planning to and it's being ready or prepared to receive life. It is haram to make the unfortunate which means that it is haram to make abortion from our office, every state, every stage every every every moment. But that's not the chef and the chef mo never come to light and Ali is that
summarized in 100 different ways. And I know you mentioned this,
but we'll head to the mean by the
HELOC is that he says a bad omen. Oh, but I doubt about it not only think about you know, come on Mara Messina lymphocyte. He says
that Halima abortion starts from the beginning of the fashioning of the fears the embryo start taking shape started becoming a fetus once it's become fearless before the 120 days. This is the opinion of Imam Shafi this opinion of the majority of the School of the shelf and Madam is that the 40 days, the 42 days free tonight, then the hammer begins with hammer because now there are details in this that there are so Imams to capitalize Allah Allah for example, is okay with with
abortion before the 42 lights, if it has if the pregnancy happens out of Zillow, or fornication, with no known with no restrictions, and with no conditions, he says has allowed him some game I'm so careful to watch and one of the greatest peaks and mountains of elements Chef m&m and all of the prophets Muslim so that before the free tonight's one can do one can
do abortion, for relationships that are illicit relation from pregnancy that comes from illicit relationship now, going to the going to the the Imam to the Hanafi that I haven't told my family there is a very misconception in here that says that this misconception the Hanafi do want to when they go with 120 days before lunch when it is it is it is okay to the abortion before the 120 days which is not true there is there is a lot of nuance within the 100 people right it is a lot of nuance within them. So, the 100 people that for example Hanafi madhhab summarize I have some summaries of quoting here that
goes there is a most of them goes with the HELOC as well for 18 months. Most of the 100 feet go with with the beginning of the shape of the fetus taking shape.
And before that, it is mcru to make a to make a abortion and after that it is haram and that Herma keeps on climbing and going higher and higher until the 120 days after the ones where it is there is no way that there is no way even if the baby is is is will come out with some defects is haram to make an abortion and I'm going to say a few words about that later on. So that the the medic is or the strictest here.
The Medic is or the strictest, the strictest and the biller and now I don't want to talk about the moral attenuation imagine where she you know human I love that it is haram, very strong haram to make any abortion or to drop the baby after 120 days of pregnancy. And this is the period in which the soul is being blown in
To the, into the into the beam of the Furious. Now, this there are a lot of details regarding this. I'm gonna read about you with that. And many kids are the most extreme or the most tight, I wouldn't say extreme, but they are tight in this is that there is no is that the moment the regime gets into the moments the money gets into the rhyme even before 40 days.
It is haram to do any abortion.
And it just becomes even higher when the work is done if you have to hurry marriage man and
Rwanda Rahmatullah Hassan in Peterborough. He mentioned that is mad that there is no that the one that mentioned that there isn't is mad that no abortion should happen after 120 days. Regardless, there's one case for it is the case of the health of the women that is endangered. The the, the the scholars, the scholars are given conditions for that, that should be conditions for that from the doctors, you know, justifying that the actual health of the woman is in danger. And then so what is all of this for, because the moment the baby becomes, if we take with the 40 to the 40 Tonight's the moments that the furious becomes,
you know, shaped,
and that agency is protected by this is not the baby of the moment. This is this is the property of ALLAH SubhanA wa jal, it's not the property of the woman at that moment, it is that it is the rulings of Allah to Allah that are, you know, if you kill is killing a person if you do that. And there are so many that, that the scholars have had talks about regarding if the woman or anybody had a woman does abortion, or she's or she's forced to do abortion, or or somebody had made her by hitching her. So abortion, what are the ramifications and the ramifications and dependences of settled on coffee that's very detailed in 15 minutes, but this is not a this is not a this is not a
new thing for us. This is very, this is a very down trodden path. That is, that is surrounded by a tremendous amount of he had tremendous amount of flexibility, tremendous amount of understanding, there's tremendous amount of realism.
It's not emotions, and it's not ideals that are completely far away from the path veloce pantalla that are realistic, understands that people understand what they're going through the even talks about the person who cannot handle financially and so on and so forth. And there is there are there is burden for them. And so, we even talked about that, right. So this idea that you know, that you know, that the liberal views are new to our mu and they are they are inviting and they are they give agency to the woman completely. What about the agency of the baby
who gets us to who who are to decide that life starts when we want life starts when we want it to start? Not when Allah told us it started. So going with the the most liberal one which is 120 days before that, before that, if there are reasons for it, one can consider before that one can consider I definitely looking at all the Adela with all the opinions. One should not there to go through that path before before after the holidays, the 42 days off
of pregnancy, the prophets, Allah subhanaw taala listened to put on about people who killed their children because of financial issues. Well, that's actually the only African countries in Latin as pantalla talk to us about rebuking people who are rebuking people okay, Derek is he and Kathy Evans you cannot lead him Sherlock at all. You do have to be so Alan, do you know what OSHA I love my family and source and I've lost contacts in those that had been misled by their by their, by their gods and by their deities, and by their by the doctrines and the beautified in them they beautified for them killing the killing of their children, the killing of the children. So the idea in here is
to be sure in sha Allah that our salvation doesn't lie with the universal values of liberalism, or with the conservatism. It lies with following the Sunnah of the Prophet salallahu. Salam, following the very clear, clear guidelines that are this issue is has theological, it has theological underpinning, and has and has independent religious and societal, societal ramifications. So the Sharia takes care of all of that.
If you look at all the back end of the end, I have my critique of the main critique or some issues of fact and so on so forth, and I have some a critique of my issues, some issues related to women in our tradition, but not this one. Not this one.
This one is clear cut, and is extremely understanding extremely Calico a lot different. It's a clear and astute understanding, and extremely, extremely realist. Last thing I wanted to say and I want to end up with this in Java is that a lot of us are tying up the helm of tying up the issue of abortion with all the social issues that that that Meyer would that affect the women in this country or in many other countries. And a lot of people are saying, you know, unless you find solution to all these babies and only find solutions to all of this, women only find solution, financial solution and so on so forth. We shouldn't talk about this. I think that there is a moment where our feminism,
our feminism, or there's a moment where our sisters and our brothers should think about this in a very, it should you know, should should think about this not in a reactionary way. My dear brothers and my sisters, and especially to my sister's
and, and the principles of feminism
are the experience with European people with the with patriarchy, patriarchy, in in the West, in America and in in the West in general. And that yardstick does not have should not be the yardstick with which we, we measure every other tradition and every other experience.
We don't have to we don't have to create a feminism feminism, there is clashing, there is a reactionary, who are who are going to be standing with you in all the legitimate issues that you fight for, if it's not for the men.
Right. So keep on alienating the machete, keep on the unit and go and hard on them in ways that I didn't see anybody who's sitting at a reasonable thing, and going hard on them and insulting them that they're backward and that they understand women and so on and so forth, and make them understand.
Make them understand, right, and we're here, we're here to listen, and we want to listen. But this idea, it's every topic that consider women we have to clash we have to fight and we have to exclude anybody else other than women to talk about, it becomes ridiculous. We create environments, instead of a home run a house instead of brotherhood and sisterhood with which Allah subhanaw taala told us to build our prophetic communities, we create environments that doesn't create in my environment, animosity that leads nowhere. It creates even more animosities that creates even more problems and issues for our children and for our for ourselves. So my sincere plea to whoever is addressing this
issue is that the the respect there is necessary, but at the same time to really question ourselves, what is our platform that we start from? What is the platform, because if we start from the premise that we are Muslims in we are adhering to Allah to Allah, Allah, Allah is proclaiming that Sunday prophets are alive, we see them, then we have to follow that learn to sort of also appear in here, the different headaches are here. And the checklist to deduce to add to reduce the account from this highlights are well known and well known. So the idea in here that we need some liberal values in here to complainants, there's nothing complimented me this is a down trodden path that has been that
has been cleared, you ask Allah Allah to that's what output Baraka in what we say. And that's Allah subhanaw taala, two branches tofield Can we ask Allah to grant us understanding the rest of Allah subhanaw taala to to grant us the ability to affect the public, the public discourse on this, because there will be time where the voice of the Muslims is going to be needed to solve a lot of these issues, these lot of these lot of distrust all over the places. And I think that this is a very right moment for the Muslims to come up with, to come up with their opinion, that is comprehensive, that touch the social issues, and the personal issues and economic issues at the same
time and you want find that accepting machete off Allah subhanaw taala let's go let's go to make us good custodians of that, but humbled.
Audience members, as you've noted, and I want to invite everybody just to kind of think and reflect for a moment that this is a conversation that requires a lot of nuance, and I really appreciate what she has conveyed in terms of this discussion around women and what we call reproductive rights, their reproductive autonomy, also the rights of the child and this is not something that's been that's been introduced recently into Islam through liberal discourse, but in fact, our LMR have considered these have have studied these this topic and issued fatawa and, and and inform ich Jihad centuries ago on the basis of Quranic guidance and the guidance of some of the Prophet alayhi
salaatu wa Salaam. So very important to note that I want everyone to understand this is just a conversation that we're having tonight with
For an informed, compassionate perspective to kind of allow us to bring our best selves to these conversations, because at the end of the day, we would require a lot more time to really get into the nuances of the of the jurisprudence or physical around this important subject. So at this time, inshallah Tirana, I would like to do a couple of things. One, I want to a lot of questions are coming in, I'm noting them down. And I want to turn some of those questions over to our speakers beginning with Shayla haisa. But I also wanted to note something because there were some comments coming in, you know, along the lines of, well, I don't really want to know the feel of this, but
what do we do about how women are being impacted? And then so on? How are we supporting those women? That was one question that one comment that came in. And, you know, I really want to emphasize this particular point, especially to our female audience members, that all of us are coming from a place of deep compassion and empathy. We are not dismissing the very real impact of the overturning of this decision on women that are seeking out this type of care, we do understand, but what we are inviting again, our assumption here, your brothers and sisters is that this is a Muslim audience that we cherish a Quran and the teaching of the Prophet alayhi salatu salam, we cherish these ideals
in the shed. Yeah. So the assumption that we're all bringing to this is that if Allah Subhana Allah, for example, is telling us in the Quran and not to kill your children for fear of want, and this is a very important area that I want to mention here. And this is chapter 17, verse 31, on how to handle him. Well, that has to do a letter from Hachette and love
what Jaco might mean this is really important do not kill your children for fear of want we will provide Allah using the world we not in our Zuko come what yeah, what there is a nurse Zippo Houma, yeah calm. It's not just, it's not leaving out the parents and just focusing on the children. But here all Natalia is revealing we will provide for them and for you, in Atlanta home Ghana,
right in the Hutzler home kind of puts on camera that verily they're killing is ever a great sin. So the reason why I mentioned this and my dear brothers and your sisters, it's not to dismiss the feelings of anybody here. But I want to really note that throughout the Quran, when birth is being presented, when when pregnancy is being presented as being presented as what, as a sign of Allah to Allah as majestic, creative power. Every time we get the, you know, the example of a prophet or messenger and they're elderly and Allah to Allah is blessing them with children. How's it Quranic story being presented? Right, and this is very apropos, given that misses the Nisha and the legacies
in Ebrahim and sought on harsh reality has set up. So it's very important, my dear Alzheimer's and not lose sight of the principles being presented and the divine revelation here. So I just really wanted to note that, and with that Inshallah, to Allah, I also, I now want to go to questions. So we are getting some very important questions in here, and I'm kind of consolidating them. So this first question is for Dr. Hayflick. And the question here is, let's see, make sure I'm going to the right question. Yes. If after that 16 week mark, if the mother finds out that the baby has complications, such as Down syndrome or other birth defects? It is, is it still haram at that time to have an
abortion? Right, a good question isn't by the way, there's been a lot of good questions. And some questions.
About FIP for stomach is about realistic living in certain states where everything is going to change. So let me address this one and in short, my whole address the other one, now congenital anomaly in the fetus, which is not one size fits all. So what does that mean? When we said Down syndrome, what do you mean which kind of down syndrome, let's look at that is congenital anomalies in the babies, what it is inconsistent with life, the baby will not make it really know that I mean, there is real cause with the genetic testing and the chromosomes comes in and I've just recently had this case, not even a year ago. And these cases that is not we call it not compatible with life.
After 16 weeks or even before 16 weeks. This is where you get the couple. This is not a decision one person does it. This is decision you bring the mother you bring the Father, if they want to bring other members of the family that their choice we sit normally do counseling,
you only to know one thing abortion, terminating a pregnancy it's a very hard decision to make. Don't you think this is an easy decision regardless of the reason? This is very emotionally, emotionally impact the woman I mean, I have seen it, I have in certain cases allowed it and it's even when I am there, it is very moving. So if we
congenital anomaly is inconsistent with life pattern. And I had this case, I actually counseled a couple and I said it's absolutely your choice. You know, you want to carry it, the baby will not make it. That's how it is, especially when
musoma anomalies. One, I have two patients one opted to terminate, I want patients to continue. Another question was in there about the anencephaly, it's another it's called the neural tube defect, the extreme one, all these words are non non viable, or they will the baby will not make it as we say, in the common language. It's absolutely disastrous, then this is the mother choice absolute. Now you're counting down syndrome. Down syndrome is a huge spectrum is down syndromes which is very mild, and they live. So not every Down syndrome, other congenital anomalies in general, if they are compatible with life, that's where the parents needs to know that this is
compatible with love, it's really harmonious. If it's after 16 weeks, now, you are coming into a living human being Yes, it is abnormal, and it is compatible with life. So in general, in general, it is not allowed. But unless it is mother's life, severe mental illness, you have to look into this also mental illness severe mental illness with the patient may be even worse with now having I had a case where it is repeated congenital anomalies. It's all viable, but it's repeated that has a huge impact on the mother. And now I worry about her well being and her life. So I want to make sure to every all the listeners, these are not black and white cases, you can say that's it Down Syndrome
terminate no Down syndrome. Every case. As I said in my in my top quality my army makan Every case has
situation. We sometimes I want, especially when I worked in Ghana Muslim country, this was a huge debate, we had it with different PA, we have Muslim physicians myself, and we have actually a religious committee in the hospital to decide on this. But in general, non compatible with life that's allowed compatible with like, it depends what kind of an anomaly and that's when we each case by each case.
Thank you, Joseph Maharaja, I really appreciate again, everyone, this is not black and white look at the nuance and again, this requires not just sort of the understanding from the trailer and saying not just the medical, and even the nuance within the medical viewpoints, but also having that sort of I would imagine that you have medical experts, religious experts, people that are experts in kind of mental health and bringing all these components together. I'm going to send this question to Charlotte Thank you check on your budget to show her son and this question because you know, she has an accent at the end here from the Sudan it's a lot but someone asked Well Are there no
accommodations for people in severe financial hardship to go forward with an abortion
there are there are there are scholars who allowed
allowed abortion in the very in the first and if it happens within the first 2020 42 nights it's with even without any reason even without reasons just like you know fear of this fear of this fear of poverty or the situation or they have a lot of kids and it was not expected it was planned and so on and so forth. They allowed that love that and they allowed it would cause cara cara Hutchins here, they allow it with some with some reprehensible Winston reprehensibility That word exists right? So the idea here is that it's it's not that there is no option there is an option but the idea in here is when it becomes so common that people are just like having that card in their pocket
I'm just going to do an abortion in here. That's not how it goes. That's now we go so the Sharia is to deter people from thinking that that this is that this is something that is just right there to think about things or to think about the ramifications and so now what about incest what about what about incest and what about rape? So mind you that again? This is because it's self reported right?
Yeah, so before before because it's self reported where 1% Of all the abortions that happened and all that 900,000 abortions that happened in 2022 or till 2021. You know, we're talking about 1% that are zero point something incest and
zero point 0.7 or so in, in there in the when it comes to now with
Talk about that most of the rapes. I'm not, I'm not I'm not reported and all of that himself. But these are the stats that we have. So it considers a very small number of the abortions that happened in this country. Right. So now, what is the shot says about that, again, I said, we're still gonna have to lay that out. So these these, these are the these are a spectrum in here. So the spectrum that starts from the most lenient is the one that is abortion that happened before 120. Before 129. This is macro, but it's not harder. That's an opinion. Some people say it's 40. Tonight, if it's the year before 20, tonight's it is still a crow, but it's not haram. And, and, of course, there are
others who say that it's from the first from the moment to see what touch the touch the get into the womb, and rest in there for even hours. It is we cannot you cannot have or days, you cannot, you cannot have an abortion. So the idea here is that it's there one can one can utilize it in this very extreme cases that do not consider does not consist of the majority of the cases of abortion, abortion is the social issue. And this political issue, not because it's very fraught with emotions, and all of that, and so not because of incest, not because of me. It's because of the hundreds of 1000s that happened on me that I selected.
And it's not because of the wealth, the health of the mother, those are issues that the city I have dealt with, right. And even in this case. So now after the 40 Tonight, we're after the the one and 2021 and 20 Nights, there is no way that you'll find that opinion within the shutdown that allows somebody to do an abortion to allow abortion, whether it's incest, and whether it is whether it's incest, or
the formation of the fetus, or the or the offering is now that you shouldn't touch the duck moment. That's it isn't that, but especially if you know that the fetus is going to come out as blind or cannot hear or cannot walk you cannot you cannot change the pregnant sentence and this is known that this is not this is a Qaradawi saying that the plasmid is two spectrums of modern scholars saying that it is not what it is now. So that's the idea in here. But before that,
before the 120 days or the for the 42 days, that's what at that point that I'm leaning towards the opinion of the 42 days HELOC when the theory static actually, before that, if there is a valid reason there is social or economic or health wise one can I mean by social,
you know, incest, I mean, economically now the situation is or health. One can one can do an abortion at that time.
And it would not be considered just like you know, we're doing a MOBA in here. But we can see that too. We're doing something that is extreme to to, to remedy a situation that is extreme.
Thank you for having me, Clara. So this is definitely this is arguably the the most difficult question that's come in just because this particular question, in terms of now we're talking about non consensual. So Sasha has not answered that question. And che Hi, I also wanted to get your your perspective.
Anyone to think of another option, which has never been discussed? What about adoption?
What about adoption in Islam, I know carefully your team, I always say this to the woman who she's thinking of miscarriage. I was like, think thinking of abortion. I'm not talking about health. I'm not talking about a non viable congenital amendment, all the others. One of the things that I discussed with the woman I again, this is a decision, the woman has to do it with her husband. Again, we're talking about Muslim couple. And I always say listen in front of Allah, Allah is going to ask me, What did you say? And Allah would ask you what you decide. And I will support the decision decision as long as the decision goes with the Sharia. If the decision doesn't go with the
Sharia, then I feel very uncomfortable doing but also think of adoption. So for example, the question came up about possibly the fear of lack of means, and I can't I have seven children. And then oh, here I am I got pregnant again. Right. Before even before the 40 days, even before the 40 days, which majority of the scholars are leaving in about accepted Maliki even that I was like, Okay, why don't you give the baby for adoption? Think of that. So, this is this is one option we have always to entertain, we need to take in consideration please. As I said, case by case there was another point you just forgot to know what was the other point in the cost?
Yes. So especially if I can find another question that I that I wanted to ask was, of course, you know, is there allowance in case of financial need or hardship to perform an abortion? And the other question what that show has some address that I wanted to address as well. So if we have a victim of rape or incest is there no allowance for them, after 120 days to pursue an abortion, that person is more way more knowledgeable from my reading and my understanding, and my teaching is rape and rape, specifically, non consensual is absolutely different. Because that's the woman has no hand in it. And again, when I trained, they actually allowed it allowed it even after the 120 B. But again, not
categorically every case by case, if it's proven rain, because rain by itself is an extreme trauma to that moment. I mean, again, as a woman, number one, carrying that baby, keep reminding her of the incident, there will be a lot of emotional impact on that kid. So we cannot just say absolutely not. Again, every case is why the case will keep reminding us of the whole amount of the life. But also I have to think of as a woman, this is why I kept saying these pieces is prepared to answer yes and no, most of the time, the answer is not yes or no, except after 224 Linnaean reasons. But if it's a major issue, you really have to take the case by case, you have to sit down you have to talk to this
woman stop that pop up on the side. But for rape, where I was trained, it was actually open 24 weeks becomes a big issue, because now it's not an abortion anymore. It's actually the
24 weeks, six months now it becomes even in medicine isn't our abortion anymore, it's a delivery, the baby will come alive. Absolutely. If the woman deliver a 24 weeks, preterm labor, the baby is alive, we'll take the baby and put it in the NICU with a special care. So that the usual that tough 120 to 16 weeks to 24 weeks where the baby is actually alive, but most probably will not make it when he or she comes out. In the rape case, again, well, I trained actually, and they actually allowed it. But again, I will say it one more time, it's case by case you in, in the matter of abortion, we cannot be black and white, except after 16 weeks.
To save the life of the mother, you have to look into it. But for rape, they, they allowed less than the way I trained if you know Sheikh Hassan is very famous. He's a physician, and he's a 14 He's actually was on the regimen. So Rebus, he actually wrote a book about and he was in our hospital where I claim now while giving them health is getting sick a little bit. And he analyzes very easily, he said less than 40 or 42 days, the Allama except the Maliki are very lenient.
They're very lenient, sometimes they say it's just a multiple impact on the winner between the 40 days. You as you go up in the pregnancy, the cause has to be the reason has to be really serious. You get to the 20 120 days, there is no more reason other than the mother's life or in case of rain, again, in that school. But as we go up seven weeks, 10 weeks, 12 weeks, you really have to go. The reason has to be really, really
valid, and not great. I don't feel well, I don't think it has to be a valid reason outside for Mother's Day. Again, it's not a very clear answer to these to these.
Alright, thank you, sheriff. I had fun and she has and if you wanted to respond, and I think we have time probably for one more question that I'm going to ask you to wrap it up in sha Allah Tala, there was an NSC, how type question that came in that I'm going to conclude with, but Chuck hasn't Do you want to respond to that as a relevancy? This is very complex? No, I mean,
again, I do agree 100%
percent with Wi Fi that this has to be taken case by case rather than just like a blanket blanket for everybody. You know, yeah. A person who has an issue would go to the person that you trust him. And he trusts him to religion and they trust in their Toccoa they trust in their knowledge. And they lay out the options that the city has for them, right. To my knowledge, Allah Allah, Allah, I did not even hear the issue of the issue of Xena and the issue of the issue of
illicit relationships and also for for rape had been mentioned Kindle books, as we mentioned in books earlier, and, and the modern one as well. So the talks about it right. So, if I didn't see
Anybody according to my knowledge, and I would love to love to hear more on trauma demand love to learn. After 120 days, it becomes difficult to to, I've haven't seen anybody alone after 120 days to allow that, to allow that abortion after that, unless in extreme cases in which the health of the woman is in the health of the organism is in jeopardy and so on and so forth. So before that I didn't, I didn't see but I'm willing to learn and I'm waiting to see what see what has happened. This is to say that the moment the moment that let us know what the baby is, the creation of Allah subhanaw taala becomes his own his own integrity at that moment, does difference we have, and I know
that socially, it's it's socially, emotionally becomes difficult to difficult to say, you know, I'm carrying the burden of this carrying the burden of this, of this traumatic experience that I have gone through, and I completely sympathize and I can never put myself in situations of, I can never understand what what a woman goes through. When that happened, I can never understand I can never claim to understand. Right? At the same time, what I can say is that this is the delineation, delineations and demarcations of the Sharia. Here, here are the limits, there are limits from the side and the limit from the side. That's all I can say. But then to each one, the choices that they
make, because according to what they according to the according to how much they they know the situation better than anybody. And if the Sharia is laid out to them, I think there is plenty of options for them before they go to something that is illicit. There's plenty of choices. And I understand that even with zenith, and people make mistakes and people go into weaknesses and they are unwilling to open for them roads to recovery and roads to repent to Allah subhanaw taala and roadshow and carrying a carrying something from from that history that poor people down and allow people not to break relationship with society's liquidity for their community. Recreation super
family is something that it has tremendous amount of ramifications.
So my My take is officially I allow enough leeway for any remedy of things like that.
All right, thank you.
Just like Macedo if I might. I want to ask you if I have thought about this, and she has I agree. I think that that's in the Sharia the contingencies that exist, I think those are things that we have to be able to investigate, of course, the larger context is that as someone noted, what if this is just let's assume it's before that it's during that window of potential permissibility. And a woman is in a state where they're outlawing abortions? Of course, that raises other questions, but I wanted to ask you this question about how dire Let's now talk about more more medical necessity? How dire does the situation have to be shaved to actually allow the woman to afford with the abortion?
IE does the mother have to be herself in danger of dying? Or are we talking about severe repercussions to her health? Because maybe that wasn't quite clear? What's the stage?
The person actually did not ask che class so that Sophie hasn't loaded words, the 120 the 120, the four months after the former's there's very little, very little. And the good news is these days, most commonly you can the woman can find out she's pregnant before that.
I mean, most woman by six weeks, eight weeks, 10 weeks, usually, you know, you're pregnant. So before the 120 days, the the starting point, is, when I when I counsel the woman is I wouldn't say don't do it, because I can't say this to her. But I will say think about a loss Fantana think about the whole amount of the life that it is not easily allowed. Why do you want to do it? You really have to counsel us, why do you want to do it? Right? So if the baby is abnormal, we cover that what is mentally need? If she has suicidal attempts, and she is going to kill herself? That's absolutely, because that goes with saving the life. But if I'm going to be emotionally unstable, I don't think I
can handle it. That's something you can easily work it out. This is like any other anxiety issues the woman goes with. So it's not an excuse, but I will put it this way. It is not an excuse to jump to abortion right.
Unless the life of the woman is in danger. i There is always other things we have to do less than 120 Before the 14 is very lenient, or 42. But I'm talking about the gray zones, like the husband said he's from the opinion that after I
I didn't want to give my own opinion. Yes, your husband but I agree with you, actually, with that opinion. When the woman comes to me I said I have to give you all that I
borsani believe Hollis Allah comes out ahead the reason when he made find out that you are pregnant after that time, so don't take it lightly. Don't take it lightly unless your life in danger or the possibility of she coming herself out otherwise, if she's mentally ill, there's a treatment if she is medically ill, there's a tool, can we try? Can we see? If I am not sure I always get a feeling of other physicians or high risk pregnancies, I get the physician or other scholars. Again, it's not a one person decision. There's two lives here. There's two human being you always have to think of it. And one of the comments was the one about the child, right? I don't like using these words. But yes,
you have to think of the baby also. Whether muda to Cha them been quoted at Allah said this.
The girl will be asked why what why did you kill you. So this is also is done the two the two points, so the gray zone between the 40 or 42 days and the 160 case, my case I have to look into it is the other option, valid option that will bring relief to the woman without the abortion? I want to use this system. Most of the time, the answer is yes. Most of the time.
Thank you Sheila Sharma, by way of wrapping up there is. So I do want to acknowledge there's a sister who's posted quite a few questions about what is basically the predicament a woman a Muslim woman might find herself and if she needs an abortion, she's in a red state where you know, trigger laws are going to go into effect, which are basically going to outlaw abortion probably from conception. So that I would actually respectfully say to my dear sister, that's more of a legal matter. So unless our speakers told very strongly about tackling red states versus blue states, I think that's probably a separate discussion, we would have to have. I just want to say one thing,
because it's the same system we'll put about woman living in red state, I lived in lived, studied, practiced with the same way you see me in a red state for 20 years. I studied in Missouri, practiced in Missouri, everything in Missouri, which is absolutely a red state will mean Republican state conservative. We don't know yet the consequences of this, we don't know yet. So let's not jump to things. And let's see what's going to happen. Right? And I have to put our stamp duty. I always believe Allah will give us a way out if this is almost a woman who really wants needs this for Aries. And that pleases Allah, Allah who will not let her down. I always say, always, we have to
always have this with the Muslim woman Don't. Don't just listen to what others says we have our own believer, our team will protect us. And there's a question about the 10 year old who was pregnant in Ohio. I don't know if you've heard about it. This is very sad. I have delivered the 12 year old,
scary 12 years, she gets up. She carried twins 12 years in residency. This was this was a sad, sad situation. So the but again, ask your husband, may Allah reward you. These are very rare. These are very rare cases. And then there's always exceptions to the rule. I don't know what they will do. Maybe they will again, raise it up to the Supreme Court. We don't know what what we cannot generalize on. On a certain unlikely cases in all my career. I've seen 12 year old one time.
So you know what I'm saying is like, let's let's talk about the most common and the real cases, equally hard isn't hungry to advocate. That is as simple.
Thank you, Chef, Chef Hassan if you want to quickly comment because I have one final question. I'm going to ask for the both of you I want to go to share hustle and the trade off for this question coming in from I think one of our students it tastes here, but yes, sure has to do you want to comment?
having you somebody practicing who's practicing
the crux of the matter and seeing it on a daily basis and
on a woman is extremely important. Having that point of view is essential for all of us to put in context because a lot of times the issue of the issue of abortion is a theoretical four minute for all the women for all the men, or most of them is a theoretical thing. We read it in the books, but this is the lives of people so a lot of people are asking us like okay, so you're talking about you know, limiting the things to 120 and all of that and so so what what are you doing for all these women that are going to be they're going to be you know, coming to a system that is already fragile sources, social net system that is extremely fragile. What do you do with those? You know, as
Muslims we don't discriminate between whoever knocks out offer help we always help we go out of our way to help our sisters who are you know, widowed sisters may not have gone through abortion or anything. The Muslim community has always been generous has always been open.
It has always been never put conditions. And I'm pretty sure this is not just in Knoxville isn't in every community in America. There are there are orphanage that are coming out in all in America right now. Aigner and Islamic Relief. There's plenty of, of places for women who have been going through hardship, whether it's whether it's those with a whether it's, you know, women who are going to go pink or going through domestic abuse, or so on and so forth. The idea is that
the idea that we should not talk about this until we have all the all the all the foundation, the social foundation and political foundation to carry the burden of Roe v Wade is ridiculous. We do our best, we do our best with whatever the social ramification of this is going to be, we will do our best to help our sisters or whoever not outdoors, in need, we will do our best we'll go out out of our way to help in every single way, we'll never let anybody come into our doors go away, especially the young woman come in with with a baby that will never we will never be acceptable coming in and helping in every single way. And by the way, we have many cases that happened in the
last six years, seven years, eight years, that I've been here in MAXDOP in which the community intervene, without asking questions without without discrimination and without prejudgment there is there is that a lot of liberals expected the Muslim to have absolutely nice, beautiful, beautiful examples of humbler value so But with that,
with that, we want to make sure that we were allowed to practice our theory our allowed to really understand or at least adhere to, or even theoretically, this idea that we all have to adhere to universal value, I'm sorry.
I'm really sorry. I have to I have two daughters. And I would love to I would love them to come out in an environment of that respects that we respect their opinions, their respect their religious views, you respect their their adherence is, and that's the America we know. That's the America we'd love to be to be just up north here. Thank you shot. We're very grateful to have you here with us tonight. And Shaffer. Hey, fire. So for both, both Shaffer differentia Hassan, the question that came in, and this is this will be a huge, so we have to really kind of condense this down as much as you can. The question was, is there an Islamic solution to the abortion issue, but I wanted to kind
of make that more broad. And what I'd like to conclude the note I want to conclude on is when you are dealing with a society that really for the last, what 50 years, has become accustomed to this idea that a woman's reproductive autonomy is enshrined in the Constitution. Ie if you look at the vast majority of cases, that women can engage in relationships and decide to terminate the pregnancy that results from that relationship. There is a larger worldview behind that one that I believe is not supported by the shutter. Yeah, in the sense that we have responsibility for our actions, we have responsibilities, obviously, to make sure that that intimate activity happens within certain
parameters. So I know this is a huge question, but given that this is purported Judeo Christian society, however, vast numbers of people are engaging in
out of wedlock relationships, and we have the ensuing pregnancies, is there any nnessee high that we as a community can bring to bear on this given the teachings that we have that actually empower human beings to live lives of modesty, chastity and restraint? That's really I think that piece is really, really missing from the discussion. Is this just pie in the sky? DeRusha has an UnderSheriff I hate that or can we offer a solution here? And I want to go to Shasta and then Shaffer Hey fun Charlotte to conclude.
My my take on this is that you know, we don't we don't impact the the moral choices of you know, America is America is a pluralistic society. And Muslims are minority in it. And there's no way that that's where that's our quote, again, there's hope in sha Allah, Allah but there's there's always the idea that we are going to impose our will on people it's just something that is ridiculous. Here's what I here's what I think we should understand. the morality of Islamic morality is morality it is intertwined with each other you cannot separate it. You cannot it's not a bifurcated, bifurcated, separated. Now, it is very intertwined with the choices that we make on a daily basis
regarding regarding relationships, regarding our guardian, our relationship with our parents, with our community and our so all of that is intertwined with the issue of abortion abortion does not that is not a floating issue on the sea of emptiness now. It's it's very related to that to the
Personal choice as it relates to personal morality related to the ethics of the group related to a lot of things that Islam hold very dear, in a Muslim society, most of these issues will not be a problem why because because people will be self governing will be there will be there will be an extremely important factor that doesn't exist in a secular society, which is an whereas the a DD which is which is the fear and are off Allah subhanaw taala, higher from Allah subhanaw taala. And that hey out from the last one that prevents us from doing that, which is one and the wrong is predefined, but that which Allah subhanaw taala had talked about in the Quran. So when we say, you
know, that God had probably hidden prohibited us from engaging in Zina, or in fornication and adultery, and how much of an I don't want to reduce abortion to only that, I know, that's not what I'm doing. But let's face it, most of it happens in that way. Most of it happens in that way. So when we don't choose when we don't, we don't have any say, on the moral choices of the American society, then we have to we have to, we have to deal with the ramifications of the plural choices, right of the of the choices of the of the money. And that's that within the Muslim community, we have to the only thing that we have to as a gift to the American society is to increase this
awareness is increased this morality that is that morality, that is that is not, that is not individualistic, a morality that is completely universal, that the choices that I make can have an impact on the on my village on a daily basis, then I'm not making choices that only impact the way that everybody will impact everybody. So the idea here is that we have a choice, we have a chance in here. And I'm going to say this for whatever it's worth, and I hope it's not offending anybody.
For many years right now,
the the failure of Christianity and Judaism is not in line with all the political winds. I think that the failure is a moral failure. It is a really serious moral failure. And when we have to come in and redress this issue, this is the gift to the American society. This is what the Muslim voice has to come out.
We have to speak more about the about the morality of the morality of the morality of the collective, we have to speak more of what is what, against consumerism, against materialism, against all of these issues, against all against individualism, in every single way, it goes against this extremely, extremely subjugating materialism. Right, we have to speak about these issues more, and give a good example of a community that lives its its values, in a in at least its values in its fullest and its values in in coherence with itself. And, and then we can see the impact, the impact of that will be less abortions that are selective, whether by choice, or that are out of adultery,
less adultery, you know, the concept of boyfriend and girlfriend, so many Christian communities have failed to deal with it, and then they see it to it, and so on and so forth. So all these issues, we can make a say there is a historical moment for the for the Muslims in America to make a dent, and to have a voice. And I think we shy him to adopt the liberal values wholeheartedly and wholesale. And Wholesale is doing a disservice to the American community doing a disservice to them, because we're depriving them what or depriving them of solution to all of these issues.
Just like Keisha has done and shake her head, so you can see I ended on this note Subhanallah so che ha, I'd love to hear your thoughts, because again, my question is, are these Islamic values impossible to achieve? We have people moving them every day, so I'd love you to speak to that. I actually Yanni adapta member the Kashif has,
as we say, he made my, my job is very hard, but I will share real incidents happened yesterday with me actually,
the real estate agent I was talking to, he was actually Christian because he was showing me that he took his he's a Catholic practicing. He was taking his children to the retreat place, which interestingly read do Muslims use the same place for Muslim retreat? So of course this debate came in. Absolutely. And we all as Muslims really need to be ready. And I always say to people, don't be shy of being a Muslim.
Don't, it's beautiful. It's a skin. Allah gave it to me. And he and he keeps telling us and I'm not bragging, I'm not being arrogant. It's beautiful. So I actually and I was I said, Listen, Islam for me, and I'm speaking as a physician is that you know, prevention is not
Got a dean of treatment? He said, What do you mean? I said Islam, prevent all the put huge obstacles through all the means that will lead to the woman get pregnant. And then we will talk about the abortion said What do you mean? I said, Listen, you know, what is the punishment for the inter the intimate relationship, outside marriage in Islam for both men and woman? And he said, What is it? I said, Listen to defense, she is virgin, he is virgin, she's virgin, or they are not. And I gave him and he said, I said, imagine if this was practiced one time, how many illegal abortions or how many illegal pregnancies unison. So we need to look at our dean is the dean of prevention lower your
gaze, there is a limit to intermingle. How do we intermingle now hello, I talked with him about the being alone with a man and I talked about me to movement. And I said, Look what you need to move at brought brought what is Tom taught us years ago, is that the relationship between a man and a woman they are not related needs to be regulated by the person himself, not by the government, or by the company, me as my third quarter last. And I fully agree with your hustle, talk about it's now my beautiful audience, men and women. It's beautiful Dean and before you talk about it, you practice it. You show it especially my beautiful sisters, if you will, your job. You are actually what
fucking Muslim. Be nice, be beautiful. Talk about it spread the knowledge. You don't have to change people. Allah is the One who change people. But I need to tell them the beauty that they are not seeing. And look at the time and I said this to the man yesterday I said for 23 years in a whole society. Can you believe it? There was very few cases of pregnancy outside marriage. That's just our our history. We just need to know it and love it and talk about it when the opportunity comes in. That's how I say
thank you che ha. So hamdulillah our program has now come to an end. I want to thank our Esteemed Scholars, Chef, Dr. Hassan ash hub, and che ha Dr. Hasan Yunus. I am just so pleased to have this conversation. We could continue much longer we want to respect our teachers time and to our audience members. We appreciate your questions or comments. We didn't have a chance when we talk about our program. So if I might very briefly just highlight the wonderful work being done at tastier seminary that has a one year immersive in person Islamic Studies program and an Arabic intensive starting soon. And Shangela Haifa who is pioneering an intensive immersive Islamic city experience that is
virtual access accessible wherever you have an internet connection devoted to two ladies so please forgive me my dear teachers for not letting you speak more about your programs because there's so much that I wanted to to share regarding that. I can they can check the website and they can see it. Exactly. Yes. So Jana is your seminary? Tech one minute Rambler blonde I mean I studied in a woman only Institute and I found this to be amazing. And Pamela Brown Allah made us do that all the fall all the grace goes to Allah Santana so we have a program called the year of knowledge was issued having Glasha Hasina will be our guest teacher next year for the whole year where we that we titled
it what every Muslim Woman Should Know. The goal is not to graduate scholars. The goal is to graduate woman mothers of the future know the Dean well so they can teach the children and then we can have a generations that they know the beauty of this D we teach five subjects the basics ones creed Arcada the Quran in this year we're doing our Luma Quran and then the Hadith. And then for which followed by that the basics. And then we do TASKI purification of the soul. humbler we had 110 students, they will graduate next week, we'll help them we will start next year in September used to and then we will open another class for year one and may almost pantalla except their last pantalla
make it for his sake it'll be me and my last pantalla the word every woman, every person who had put any small or big effort in this program Europian does that
mean I mean thank you che ha hey, if I appreciate you and Chuck has and if you're still with us if you're able to join us speak a little bit about because we didn't have that working to the program. If you wanted to talk a little bit about the programs happening at TCU Inshallah, and then if I get our wonderful moderator behind the scenes, if Hamza we have links to Genesis two.com and foretaste theatres tastier seminary.org And again, there is an Arabic intensive starting soon it's in person with a potential virtual component and we have a one year immersive program in Islamic studies that we have started back in 2015 and that is an in person experience in beautiful East Tennessee. So
shall Hasson is back. If you can show just tell us something about that program at TCU. Thank you so much.
thing I think the seminary had started eight years ago.
It's a one year program in which you come in, you're immersed in the study, we call it a deep introduction to the Islamic studies. But at the same time, the most important, valuable part of TCU. In addition to get immersed in all of the tradition, the traditional, the traditional subjects and disciplines themselves is a very, very spiritual environment. At the end of the day, if we inject all the information in the minds of people, if we don't transform them spiritually, and connect them deeply and intimately and experientially to Allah to Allah and His Prophet of Allah, who asked me to tell them with a good understanding, to different understanding to the tradition, I don't think
we're I don't think we're creating any we're I don't think we're having an impact on them. So the spiritual experience is what what makes this here
a place of Hamlet, place of birth, companionship, a place of love of Allah to Allah, a place where people learn how to worship Allah to Allah properly the PM, there is spiritual retreats, there is plenty of there isn't there is a spiritual, there is a there is a beautiful companionship day to day with the teachers at the same time, there is always contextualization of the information, there is no information that is taught in here that a person will say, what do I need that for, we take the tradition to be our lens with which would read our future with the way we make choices on a database itself, the tradition and every aspect of it becomes extremely relevant becomes extremely practical,
because extremely necessary. And that's what you see here is about also I can say more about that about the environment of love and, and, and companionship that is a very humble and very elevating and very elevated and very, very purifying and very sobering and we have students from Allah that come to us from different ways of life from different ages. And so you could see them together, working together, worshiping together crying together laughing together, like like a beautiful family. So I invite everybody to check us out if you can come to visit us that's great if you can then make the art for us. Insha Allah Allah make the art for Jana institute that Allah Tala puts
Baraka image that Allah Tala elevated
guidance and goodness and White House of Prayer inshallah in America, that we could be a place where our daughters and our sisters and our wives and our mothers would go and find a bosom of partner and love and,
and connection to Allah subhanaw taala. So that's what kind of success for everybody works for.
You Thank you. I'm so excited that I subpanel that we were able to bring these amazing scholars together for this important conversation. Very quickly. In the chat there is a link to a telegram community or agenda Institute appeared a nice PDF booklet containing doc from the Quran and Sunnah. So make sure you check that out. And wonderful programming from regenda and tastier check out the Instagram pages shave I hate fest talks on the importance of them Hessischer hasn't has a new series is our on our case, your Instagram, and a special thank you to our our admins behind the scenes working across multiple time zones who got this all together. So I want to bid everybody a wonderful
evening and I've included a brief dot and please please please make that for a wonderful scholars who devoted their time and came and taught us tonight May Allah Allah bless and protect and reward both of you and your loved ones and we are committed.
And thank you so much.
And to our audience, thank you for joining us and shall we hope to see you again soon. And we'll conclude with a brief dark satanic wallhanging that will be Hantek Ashford
and we ask ALLAH SubhanA diadems is with him to bless us with acceptance elevated me yet forgive our sins. Allow us to observe the day of the fasting and you'll modify in particular and just like my favorite everybody