Islamic Views on Female Circumcision Discussion on Female Genital Cutting (FGM)

So I want to come

it's haleema

maybe you can't hear me yet.

Like the Haifa whenever you're ready just let me know we're not going to begin for another six minutes or so I just wanted to get Salaam

oh nevermind

I said I might come back to have I just unmuted you. I believe I just want to check your mic. Yes.

Why don't you

who thank you for showing me

that also?

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, it's below camera.

You cannot start your video because the host has stopped it. Okay try now. I will. Yes this

is you need to allow me to share slides. Yes. You're a co host so you're able to share you're able to share. I tried but it says did you make me now co host? Yes. Let me try. Okay. Share.

Here. Oh, well, can I okay, that's fine. It now you can see it. Um, yes. What can I share? First, I'm just going to welcome the event first, I have the flyer, and then you'll go next. Okay. I'm just trying to see if it works. Yeah, it looks like it works. Okay. hamdulillah Just a second. Let's go back to zoom. Here I am.

Bismillah

let's make it bigger. stop sharing. Yep. Okay, let me just fix my camera rolls. Alright, just let me know when you're ready.

Oh, yes. Who is the audience? Yes. So it's a mixed audience. The sponsor or non Muslim the sponsor is a midwifery group licensed homebirth versed in our midwives and Seattle, those are our sponsors. And one of the midwives in that group is from

I forget what country she's from maybe maybe Guinea or somewhere in West Africa. So she really raised awareness and ask the group to sponsor you Masha Allah bless her heart. She's a new midwife she just graduated from the best of your university with her master's degree last month so so are they open to the fact that Islam allows it but not the severe one?

I think so. A lot of people don't know the difference because it's just not very it's just not it's not common knowledge even for me when I you know when I went to go look in um, you know, reliance of the traveler and so forth I'm like, Where can I find it you know, or you know, you know your man you know, the Maliki men have their opinion like I'm going like okay someone helped me which book you got to dig a little bit for us

and then you know, we know you know it's the it's just a teeny couple centimeters of skin the prep us is not like is the difference so they may not know they may know I'm looking at the list of attendees right now they look like you know certainly there's going to be a number of non Muslims there but it's a mixed crowd so that's why this is why I need to know so you know when you speak you know who you are addressing yes especially our they have their camera on no cameras I think the beginning part we want to do just presentation I really no mic no camera, no chatting. Okay, how much time I have, you have as much time as you need. I mean, before I don't I have only 10 slides.

Okay, because mainly I wanted it to open for questions and answers. Okay. Okay. So you will so those three were three speakers right or solely me

You are the main speaker me and another midwife will be there to you know, how long have you been How long is the whole program? One hour? Okay, good. All right.

And how did you know about me? Oh, let's set a shamira

yeah

yes yes yes yeah, yeah. Plus I I saw your interviews and everything so that was this amazing Mashallah opportunity. And really an opening for us to kind of set the record straight where people can just, you know, we can not be so ignorant state like not knowing you know, like always blaming Islam, for every area.

You know, not understanding where it comes from the right the different opinion you know, as like, and the open mindedness is not all black and white, there is F and there is what and so hamdulillah bam, it's it's good that you are covering this midwifery in Seattle is you're a midwife. I'm a midwife, but

it's a big thing in Seattle. I'm in San Francisco, the other sisters in Seattle, but it's a big thing here. Yes. Oh, you come here. And forget it.

Yeah.

Is a physician. It's a position. state. Yeah, no, that's fine. Yeah, it's

I worked in England, actually. And it is free. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Tell me whenever you're ready. Okay, inshallah. Okay, so let me just introduced the program. Okay.

You have 15 people waiting for you. Yeah.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to our event, Islamic perspectives on female circumcision. Thank you so much for your patience. Thank you for joining us. We have a warm welcome from you.

From all the sisters that worked very hard to put this event together, and we hope that it will be a truly a beautiful thought provoking conversation and presentation with Dr. hypha Yunus on the Islamic perspective and practice of female circumcision. And with a discussion on you know, the conversation that's happening in modern times with female genital cutting mutilation issues in sha Allah Allah

will begin in a few minutes here, and I will introduce our guest presenter today.

Doctor Dr. hypha. Eunice is a Board Certified gynecologist, with the Islamic Studies background graduating University in Mecca and mocha Rama, she's also half of the appcode on and she's practicing in the Midwest. And we are just very, very excited for her to join our program today. And in sha Allah she I'd like to welcome her now.

Sam Ali, Cora, Laura, but barakato Good afternoon, everybody. So it's an honor to join you and it is a pleasure to be here. And it's really interesting.

If we look positive and everything in life, and if you can look for something positive, in COVID, there's always positive thing in everything. And that is basically, these are possible. I gave talks way more than I gave talks before the COVID Alhamdulillah. umbrella mean. And the beauty of it is you can reach different people, different parts of the world, different backgrounds for Hamdulillah, blasphemy. And if I speak some Arabic, please remind me because I know some, we have beautiful combination, I see the names.

It's a pleasure to be here with you. And thank you so much for inviting me. And I asked her last pantalla, I asked God to bless this gathering, and to make us all learn, improve, be more accommodating to everybody else. And to be more welcoming to different ideas and different opinions. And look at everything is that there is things happens or things happens for a reason. So what I want to do is I want to share with you

inshallah, I can, yep, let's see

already. And let me

just a second

here. Okay.

So I am going to be your Can you see me? Can you see the screen?

Yes, yes, I'd handle a lot of brand. Alright, so

I just I don't have a big presentation, because as I just told Halima, may Allah reward her is that we want to talk about it about the subject. But then mainly, I want to have a discussion is let's talk about it. And the more we talk about something, we learn more, as long as we are open to the other opinion, and this is I'm going to repeatedly bring this topic again, because this is a different opinion, this is a different culture. This is a different practice. And we cannot one size does not fit all. So let's be open to this. And let me share with you what is female genital mutilation, this is the term is used. If you look at the who, the woman health, the World Health

Organization, and I don't think it is

applicable or it is right to use this word all across the board. Let's put the word circumcision. And in the circumcision, as I am going to be sharing with you some of the pictures on the types of it, definitely some of it is goes under the female genital mutilation, so we're going to use the word circumcision. Now look with me. And this is the who definition, I shared this with you. It's the partial or total removal of the external female genital organs or other injury. This is extremely important to the female genital organs for non medical reasons. The practice has no health benefit for goals and woman. Again, this is the who I'm not I didn't come yet to the Islamic

perspective right now. and FM FGM. Or circumcision can cause severe bleeding and problems urinating and later cyst infections. The severe one, more than 200 million girls and a woman alive today have been either used the word cut, or this practice has been practiced in more than 30 countries, mainly in Africa, I'll share with you a slide in a second mostly carried out in young girls.

infancy and age 15. As I am talking, I want you to think of the male circumcision. The male circumcision, if any of the audience other than Muslims, or Jews or African American, that's usually standard for them. Again, I'm an OB GYN and I practice in a state I am in St. Louis, Missouri, where circumcision, the newborn male circumcision done by ob by the OB GYN. So if my patient is Christian, maybe maybe not. They do it. Maybe not most of them No, but if my patient is Jews, or my patient is African American, most of them if not all of them, if they are Muslim, absolutely they do it for the man for the boy and they are young. It's usually before they leave the hospital. So for the girls he

coming is done in infancy and up till age 15 is this is the w h o it's a violation of the human rights of girls and women. That's the opinion of the who is opposed to all forms of the female genital mutilation they call it I'm gonna keep saying circumcision because we really need to have a difference between the word mutilation and the circumcision treatment. There's of course, complications promet, as in any other procedure.

The types of it and I'm and before I do this, I want to put this a slide First, let's look at the anatomy. Right? What is it? So basically, if you're looking at this, this is the clitoris. And this is the clitoris a glance, I don't know our audience how familiar you are with medicine, but I'm going to speak as as possible as a non physician. And if there's anything you don't understand, please ask me feel free. So basically, the man has a penis and pour the woman there is no penis, there is clitoris we call it and that clitoris has the glands, which is the remnant of the penis, and on one we are created. Originally, it's a word of God, it's the same externally and then it's

changes as the inside the baby. So basically, this is the Roman end of the penis. This is the clitoris, the laborers, laborers, and this is the vagina. Right? So what is circumcision? And where is it done? Okay, and I'm going to go back and forth, because I want to see what is circumcision? I want you to pay attention to this slide. So here you go. This is the norm. And if everyone cannot see me or there is an issue, please let me know already. Halima make sure you let me know. So this is the norm. Okay, this is basically where we urinate. And this is how I explain it to patients not circumcision. If I am doing a surgery on the patient, put on the vagina on the Walmart. This is how

I explained it to her to all so we can get oriented. This is where we urinate, urethra we call it or the opening of the tube that to urinate through. And this is where we pass bowel movement. It's called anus. And this is the female genital structure external, right or what we call it in total is the vulva. This is all the vulva. Right? So here you go. I'm sorry. This is the urethral opening. Please forgive me urethral opening. This is the vagina. This is what the baby comes from. This is the labor minor. Minor means is small. And this is the lady Majora.

The big one. Exactly like the lip.

Our lips, sir. This is the labia majora. The big one. The inner one is the labor menorah. The opening is the vagina. That's how it is. That's how Allah created us. That's how God created us. Let's look into the types of circumcision. What do they do? What do they do in the circumcision? Okay, and this is where it is. You have type one, you have type two, you have type three, and the risk type four.

Type One is the simplest one. Look at this. Compare this with this.

Compare this with this.

Maybe a Majora still there.

See it

labium menorah still there

right I call it the prep use only only this part here removed and covered just a little bit a little bit so it says its removal and partial or total removal of the clitoris it's usually partial meaning I have seen these have delivered woman with with circumcision, you can identify where is the clitoris so if you look from the outside, you don't see much difference. And you just see you can see what is the clitoris so it's a just a little bit of removal of the skin take off the circumcision, when we remove the skin, right and sometimes you remove a little bit and sometimes we'll remove a lot of it. So the whole glands for this is for the man or for the babies so that

glands is completely exposed. So that's type one. Now type two, it becomes more

what happens now part of the labor is removed. The labor Majora

and labium an aura is removed part almost.

And the whole clitoris is removed and it is covered. That's the whole idea is covered. She still can urinate you still can see the urethral opening and then you still see the vagina. That's type two. Type three. That's the worst. When everything is removed, I have seen this absolutely. There's nothing. Nothing. The labor compare this with this.

See here. Labor Majora, nothing. Labor menorah,

nothing.

The opening of the urethra, you can see it. You actually have to live to the skin to go to the urethra.

Look at the vagina. There is but it's very small.

That's type three type

For this is who classification type for where there is piercing of the vulva, they call it genital mutilation. When there is piercing there is excess removal of any of the tissues. It's called that type four. So you have normal, you have type one, just a little bit of the skin is removed, covering the clitoris could be could be removing of the outside part of the clitoris type two removing of the clitoris, some of the labium menorah, some of the labia majora, but you still see the opening, three, completely gone. And the outside. And by the way, they still can deliver, I have delivered babies, I have delivered the woman with this. So that's how it is where it is done.

Where it is done, mainly in Africa. The majority of the cases is actually in Africa. And I will show you where

the yellow is the least. And as you go, it becomes more and more. So pay attention. Which part of the world is this? This is Africa. This is the Middle East here. Mainly Africa, Central Africa, Eastern Africa, not in the lower Central and not in the south, not in South Africa. And interestingly, not northwest of Africa. You don't see it in Libya. You don't see you don't see it in Tunisia and Libya. Libya, you don't see it in Tunisia. You don't see it in Algeria. You don't see it in Morocco. You don't see it in Senegal,

the communist, the highest number,

or the most common that

the country number one where circumcision is done is actually in Somalia. Here you go, you see it. And almost all the patients I have seen except one were from Somalia.

And the second one was from Sudan.

So you have Somalia, you have Ethiopia and Eritrea. You have Sudan. You have Egypt, you have Mali. These are the highest see here. Then you come up less and less and less. And you have Guinea, Guinea in 97 is second to Somalia. Guinea. Mali is less. Sudan is less Egypt a test but not much difference. It's 87. Here is 98. Right? Then you come less and less of Kenya becomes less Tanzania, Cameroon, Nigeria, my home country, Iraq, but it's only in the northern part. By the way. It's not in the hole. And I was born there and raised there. No, it's only in the northern part of it. And you see it in Yemen.

Yemen, this is Saudi. This is Middle East. This is basically Saudi Arabia. This is the cold Gulf area. This is Dubai, Saudi Arabia. This is Yemen. Here you go. And then Iraq.

What does Islam say about it?

And this is something we all have to learn. Right? The word Suna I have to explain since we have non Muslims without soon it is a practice of Rasul Allah salatu salam.

So he said the following, and I'm going to translate because some of the words are Arabic In the fifth power, which is the natural inclination in the human being. When Allah subhanho wa Taala created us, there is five things that it is part of the natural inclination of the human being. The five things are circumcision, both he said men and woman, but hold on a second, we have to explain what does it mean for the female circumcision, but I'm talking about in general, and shaving the pubic hair,

plucking or removing the armpit hair, cutting the nails, and trimming the mustache for the man.

These are practice highly, highly recommended out of a cleanliness, I have to have natural instinct, and here put circumcision in general, it did not differentiate men or a woman yet. I'm coming to that. So that's number one. Okay. circumcision is part of the religion of Islam, but don't think of the genital mutilation. That's why I'm separating the words

for men, in some of the school of thoughts in Islam is actually obligation. All the rest, all of them agree it is highly recommended, highly recommended. And I'm going to come to this. So here you go. So most correct view. This is a stomach view. It is obligate obligation in the case of men, and to Sunni meaning is something recommended in the case of the woman. The difference for the woman

Because when the skin stays there and I'm speaking now, anatomy, this is the penis, the skin usually is like this. So when the man urinate, and then I always say this, there is no shyness, when we are learning, as long as we keep it in the appropriate frame, so the penis is covered by skin. So when the man urinate, then the sum of the urine stays inside. And for us, Muslims to pray,

purity, meaning,

the removal of the urine, from the body, when it comes to the skin or removing of Please forgive me, the remnants of the thesis is extremely important for us as Muslims. And actually, our prayers is not accepted if it is on our body. And one of the things some of you are midwives, maybe all of you, and which was very interesting for me, one of the nurses in labor and delivery came to me, I said the following, says Dr. Yunus, something very interesting about your patients. 90% 80% of my patients are Muslims. And I said, What is it? She said, your patients are very clean. And I said, What do you mean? She said, they all come shamed, which is absolutely true Muslims with me here, you

know what I'm talking about, they come here shaved,

they all smell good, smell amazing, because shaving the hair is part of the, as I said, the five inclinations. So it says for the man, it is obligation, because of the cleanliness, in case of a woman, it serves a useful purpose, which is to reduce the desire, but this is seeking perfection, not removing something harmful. So to remove the skin, extra skin in the case of a man is actually beneficial to the man because of the extra skin may collect more urine in the case of the woman, it is not, it is not something removing harm, it may be beneficial. It is practice recommended, but it's not an obligation. Having said that, because I don't want you to open your eyes here. I don't

see you because I'm looking at the slides. Okay, here we go. There are reports in the silver tsunami in the practice of the Prophet peace be upon him, meaning you're talking about 1400 years ago, that this was done for the woman. Look at this, that circumcision for a woman is prescribing a stamp it is practice, however, however, look at this. in Medina, Medina is the city in Saudi Arabia where the Prophet lived, and he saw may Allah be pleased with him. There was a woman who did circumcision for the woman, the Prophet, peace be upon him, told her do not go to the extreme in cutting that is don't go in the extreme and cutting why that is better for the woman and more liked for the husband,

meaning type one.

Meaning if you are going to do it, it's type one only. I actually am done with mine because I told him I don't want to share a lot of information. I tried my best inshallah to share what is overall and then I am open to questions and answers comments feel free. This mill as we say, by the name of God.

Okay shala this one I recommended are human and they will guide benefitted the merciful we would like to open up some for some q&a now. I think I'm going to start by opening up the chat inshallah. It's going to work that everyone can publicly put their question in the chat if they have a chat. We're welcoming everyone to open their cameras.

I hope that I can do that technically. To have that happen. I may not be able to happen I'll try

but if anyone wants to raise their hand we can also take turns

taking questions What do you think about that?

And you can't reply because your audios off.

Okay, that's a good question.

Nigeria, she says How can you share how the various types impact divorce type through? If you remember the picture I put where the whole labor, Majora and Libya my Nora and the whole clitoris is removed. Literally the woman comes in. I don't know if any of you have seen it. But it is basically she comes with this opening. I don't know if you can Yeah, yeah, this opening and it is like this. Mostly what we do is we need to open this.

under anesthesia Of course he's taking up the jaw we give local so you open it spectrally this is first second baby. It's too small.

We open it and the baby comes out you will be very surprised, and I will never forget this. She's more than 1213 years ago she was a physician from Sudan

and of course I've seen it during pregnancy and I asked her this question

because she had typed through and I said I am going to need to open it up during labor. Do you want me to cut it properly? I mean to suture it back properly meaning open it up completely and as much as I can bring back the labor or you want me to bring it back the way it was, that's the woman rights

I have no right to to impose my belief or what I think that's what body is is her choice and I was so surprised when she said put it back the way it is. And this is a physician and I was really surprised I have more this is one but more said put it back as normal as you can. Personally I disagree with that assessment of the level one circumcision as presented by the speaker. I have seen circumcision of goals done many times it was even learning how to do it while I was in human Okay, and the clitoris was cut exactly in one the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him instructed not to remove too much exactly I shared that one because it to bring smiles to the faces the area that is

caught is the very edge of the labor minor. This is also explained by the ruling of what breaks also in regards

I'm sorry, I'm missing the Can we stop shooting because I'm I'm missing this question. Okay. This is what I think I explained in my beautiful sister you're on Amina is the not the clitoris is not covered in part one. It's not it's it's usually very when you see it, I'm sure you have seen it. You've said you have seen it. And I have seen it. It's you can barely tell there is a circumcision in type one. And that's the one that Saraswati saw to Sarah, the Prophet told the woman it is basically barely you see something is missing, barely You see, unless you are an expert and you do this every day, then you see something is missing. But in general,

my question still is is it obligated to do circumcision for females? No, I shared that this on the slide. I don't know if I mean, you've seen my slide. It is not an obligation for the woman. Absolutely. There's not one thing you have to know. And this is where we're coming to culture. So the system before that, she said she's from Yemen, Somalia, Sudan, South Egypt it's the norm culture which the norm culture I'm not talking about the degrees I'm talking about the circumcision itself south of Egypt Sudan

Somalia it's I'm talking about two girls born there it's the norm it's the normal culture is done is not an obligation in Islam it's not an obligation

Let me see if there is any other question I think I missed some duck mama here the way yum yum wanna? Would you please share the chart of the rates of female circumcision around Africa? What was the unit of the of the measurement also, is it possible to share the various types of circumcision but over email I would love to have this for reference I will tell you very easy I'm gonna go to the wh o website and go to Wikipedia you'll see it it's very easy it's it's right there. Any medical book you're seeing but go to the Wikipedia. You will

Okay, I am unmute.

Can you hear me?

Yes. Mashallah. Yes. bucket

winner,

Salaam Alaikum. The picture I shared with you is actually from the who and it's the same picture from the Wikipedia you can look at it up one and two and three. And then can we advise our clients this once again, culture and religion are mixed up? No, this is I wouldn't say

this is a legit Let me hold on on this question. But yeah, Dr. Haifa I want to give a midwife me a chance to say it verbally explain her question. Yes. Okay. So in. I'm going to unmute you. Sure.

Go ahead. Hello. Yes. Oh, Salam aleikum?

I am I am registered as a me as well.

I guess I'm using Emmys.

A link. So this has been neon speaking in licensed midwife here in Washington State.

And I totally from Mali, I grew up there.

And yeah, my question again, I think I was trying to figure it out.

Because I'm from Mali, and looking at your chart, we have the highest, one of the highest numbers, and is one of the projects even in the state of Washington in the US, is still happening. And as a midwife the complication I cannot I cannot say enough of the complication of not only in childbirth, but even when people have like those measures and a lot of issues during the teenage years. And so like the infection and everything that they have to deal with,

and, and women coming to us, and I feel like they're not feeling

the husband, right? They feel like they've been raped in bed every day. They're having to have to go through childbirth, just because of this society. They that's what is meant for them to do. So how can we as a midwife and Hasbro workers, and as, as a mother of myself of my child, and worried that this thing can happen to my child, and the nightmares? So what would you recommend for us? And again, it's like, like, Why can we safely tell people for this to stop? Can I be stuck? Okay, let's let's look at this is a very good question. It's a very good question. Just forgive me for a second Halima Go ahead, because my camera, I have to put it on. It's going to go off just a second.

Okay, so please forgive me, but I was running out of battery. So what the question may Allah reward you is,

again, in medicine in general, in Islam in general, let's combine it all. In living in general, those rules. If circumcision is female, circumcision is not allowed, which is not allowed in the United States, then my Islam, my belief tells me, I need to not do it. That's number one. Because I cannot not follow the rules of the country, when it comes to something that is not obligation. So for the woman, as we said it, it is not an obligation. So that's number one. When I talk to talk to somebody about circumcision, Number Number one, I say it is not allowed in this country, then you are breaking the law. And Islam teaches you you need to respect the law of the country as long as it

does not contradict with your basics. That's number one. Number two, which one they are doing it they are doing the second and the third, absolutely, this is not Islam. Now, the most important thing who is doing it, anything that brings harm to the body is not allowed in Islam robot or what albuterol you do not to bring harm and you do not cause harm to yourself. So, this is how I will advise the community and again, you cannot impose you you have no power, but you have the power of advising that these goals especially type two and three, absolutely, it ruins her life.

So, this is not what Stan says this and you can code the Hadith I shared here, this is not allowed in this country. And if it is done pot Thai point, if it is done not in this country, then it needs to be done by somebody who is professional, who knows what they are doing. Because absolutely, it has a lot of complications as anything you do in medicine, if you are not qualified, has a lot of complications, of course.

inshallah, I would like to also offer the opinion from the Maliki madhhab

school of thought where it's allowed and in if you were in certain countries, not here, of course, where it's not allowed in this just to prep your skin or whatever it is. That's the minor number one

That there's an age limit, you know, so once you get beyond the opinion is once you get beyond, you know, five or six or seven years old, you know, the the presidents of the woman not exposing herself in Islam takes more precedence. So you can't be exposing yourself to do something that is only recommended. And then it's not really the place to really try to impose something that's a, you know, recommendation. Or if you haven't done it, then you're not seen as on pure or, you know, not fit for marriage and some of the other cultural contexts that come in, opinions that come in and so forth. At this point, I do want to clarify that I am African American, and I have not been

circumcised myself. We'd love to invite midwife, Sister feyza, for Raul to come in who serves in the Seattle area for her to share in the discussion. If she would like to join us, please, misnomer.

So unlike me, everyone.

Good to smash Allah. Yeah. How's it going?

Good. Good. hamdulillah Yeah, beautiful discussion. Mashallah. So, um, I have, I was able to tune in the last 15 minutes or so and catch some of your slight sister. Yes.

And I was

I am really like, like vinta said, Ben and I are actually in the same state. And it's, you know, this is a practice that's pretty horrific. And the ones that we see are mostly the severe type of it.

And I know, you know, and just hearing, you know, the two of you, Dr. Jonas, and also sister Halima just saying that, you know,

it's okay, if women don't do it, you know, it is it is,

you know, the type one is totally fine for those who want to do it. But if you don't do it, women are not obligated like the men are too. But the thing with circumcision is, though, it goes beyond religion as well, there are people in Africa that are not Muslims, or even in, you know, some parts of Asia, that still practices even though they're not, you know what I mean? So that's also another piece of info that most often is overlooked, that this is not, this is not always associated with Islam, like people do it. It's mainly cultural stuff, especially the severe, crazy type of it. And I would encourage, you know, since it's not a recommend, like recommendation that we do it, you know,

or like, we do it to our daughters, that, it's totally fine to forego it, especially if moms who we care for are having such a severe, you know, adverse reaction from it. It's, it's okay, you don't have to put through your daughter, what you went through as well. But if you if you are going to do it, then doing it the most, you know, least invasive type, which is type one is the recommended because I know for some folks, it's going to take quite some time for them to stay away from and unfortunately, in most families, it's the it's the moms, it's the grand moms that are like pushing forward this, which is surprising, oftentimes, because they're the ones who are having, you know,

these adverse reaction from it, too. So that's my take, I don't have I don't have daughters. But if I did, I would definitely not have to circumcise no matter what the type is. So that's pretty much my take on circumcision

is that you know, I want to add one thing for everybody since we have a handler, different background people, we need to be open minded. This is why I said in the beginning, meaning what sister hyzer said she will not do it. Somebody is going to come in and says you know what? No, I'll do it. But I will do try point. I'll do it in a way that is safe. I know who is going to be doing I need to be open to these two. Because it's not an obligation. It's not something an obligation in Islam. It is something have been done type one. So we both have to be open to this and I shared with you the physician when she said put me back. She's already had type three. Right? And I discussed

with her as a physician, I was like do you really want to do that? Because it's really your choice when you had when? Because she was jet done back in Sudan. And she said absolutely, this is how I am I'm very comfortable the way I am. And me and my husband are comfortable. You know what, that's our choice. We really have to be as we are some of us very much against it. We need to be open to those who are with it as long as it is type one and it is safe. done safely.

Yeah, I would I would also add not just done safely, but um

Of course, anyone can say safely but they don't know what safe means like I trust her. Right? That's all as far as the conversation goes sometimes, you know, I trust her, you know she's gonna be safe no worry, she's gonna be safe, right? She's know she knows what she's doing, she knows what she's doing and so forth. So again, you know, there's you know, there's more to be had on the the conversation of sha Allah tala,

midwife and Dan is my L from Somalia will be on next week to talk about that which which is like to get into the deep cultural and, you know, emotional effects that has had on the community and it is being slowed down, and it is less Alhamdulilah. And it's it is not what you see type 234 and so forth, has no,

absolutely no connection with Islam, you know, she talks about in her book, where it comes from, you know, 1000s and 1000s of years ago from even maybe the time of the Egyptians, and so forth, you know, just some, maybe some pagan roots, and so forth. Some of the historians talk about that. But here for our context is just a conversation about in the, in the West,

that, you know, it's still practiced here in the States. And it's still a big problem, I actually really respect that what you said is that whatever your cultural perspective you're coming from, as a protect practitioner, we have to be respectful of what people are saying, and share with them the dangers and the harms. And you know, what we can do here in the US and what you know what's illegal, and try our best to just, you know, practice, you know, compassion, and they're going to come through compassion, they're not going to come through, you know, US banging the head on stick on them, or shaming them or making them feel bad, they're they they may not even want to keep the

conversation going, you know, you want to keep the conversation going, you know, and then just to follow up with some of the, we will provide some resources for you all, for mental health health associations and actual professionals who have experience talking to people, you know, I couldn't say I'm super experienced, I don't live in a in an area that is predominantly has this issue that comes up with midwifery care, but we inshallah will provide some resources, but that you can find them on the internet, and the h. h. w. o organization, the definitions and so forth. Let's get to a couple more questions. And we are going to stop right at the top of the hour. So we have like 10

minutes or so we need five minutes or so to do announcements, please raise your hand if you want to ask one question and you want it will be might be easier for you to verbalize it. Bismillah is Ayesha, I can't tell if you're raising your hand this minute. I think there's just that there's a question that's still going on in the chat. And some folks were able to ask verbally too, and it's about

it's about the prophets, Allah Allah, if someone if it was recommended so much in Islam, why didn't he have his daughter's circumcised? I think there's still that confusion about, you know what I mean, why is this Okay, I know this circumcision, sort of,

you know, Islam didn't Apollo, you know, abolish it. But you know what I mean, because it was already a culture that was, you know, what I mean, that was being practiced in the, in that region at the time. But if you could touch up on that, that would be great. Because I feel like people are still

at our page. And to the questioner. We don't have information to say he his daughters were or we're not. We don't know.

We don't we did not have an information saying that his daughters were not circumcised or were circumcised so we cannot comment on that. And I'm not saying do or don't we don't have it. In fact, I'm just doing I just finished a whole series agenda Institute with the wives of Roswell resort to some and now I'm doing his daughter's we did the three of them. There is nothing says they did it or did not. So I will leave that. And there is a reason why we did not get this information. Allah has a wisdom in everything. So this is number one. There's another question is what do you think the most important takeaway for non Muslim is in which way? Yeah, me that the non Muslims, if you

explain it to them, in a rational way, that type one, which is the minimum removal is something accepted in Islam, and it's something done in parts of the world as long as it is safe. That's the that their choice and I always say this to non Muslims, and Muslims with me here will understand the norm in this country. That people the norm

Have boyfriend and girlfriend, but for us Muslims is not.

Right. And we, this is how they practice it. And this is how we practice. And this is how a lot taught us. I think what we have to and again, I've said this from the beginning, we need to be open to different opinions inside it start outside us now. I'll have to force my opinion on you. But that doesn't mean my opinion is wrong. So for the non Muslims, I'll explain it the same way. I I this is how I explained it to the nurses when I'm delivering the patient. This is how I explained it. And if it is type three, I will say this is not what Islam says. And most commonly and this is one of you have said that I think Pfizer you said this is most commonly what I see is type three, you're right.

When they come specially from overseas, and as a home birth midwife who sutures like one or two monthly anyway, do you have any pointers for suturing? scar tissue, you need to know how to do it, my dear.

Because you do not want to number one, they bleed. And you're absolutely right your face that vulva is in general, vulva is very vascular, like when the woman tear in labor, or when we do a PCR ami, it's very vascular. So you need I would recommend for you as a midwife to observe an OB who knows how to do that a couple of times like you how you learned to suture tears, or app is your army, the same thing, but I would not give it on a talk on on

zoom it this needs training because you do not want to put it back even worse. And there is nothing wrong with saying I don't have experience. Let's get somebody who knows how to do it.

Okay, so let's let's look at take a turn from SR Nigella, who's raising her hand Bismillah.

So he grew up and Allah

does accola Qaeda ladies. Um, so I don't have much experience with this. But I do know it's a big problem, even as our sisters have voiced here. And so I want to know, if the women here who you serve in communities where this is like kind of a norm, or like we willing, and I'm willing to learn more, learn about the effects of it, right? And go into our communities and have these conversations with our massages without women. So that, you know, because people may say, okay, culturally, we'll do this. And but you don't know if the person is doing type two, type three, you know, I'm saying, and so and then our girls are left with these long lasting impacts. It's, you know, so how can we,

we have 100 lessons to help you have created this community of us. How can we go back into our communities and have these conversations to bring more awareness? Because it's needed? So that's kind of like my question.

Dr. Haifa, you're not you're not you're muted. Sorry.

Now you can hear me? Yes. Yes. My other computer my other mic died. What I am seeing is what I what I live in a practicing Louis, Missouri, we don't have on what have people from Africa, but I was wondering if I was practicing in Minneapolis, I probably would have seen it a lot. What I will, if this is me as an OB GYN, and as a Muslim, and if I see Pfizer, you probably are seeing it. I don't know about you Halima. But if I am seeing that many of level three, type three done on the young woman, I will absolutely start the education campaign. You're going to get a lot of obstacles, anything you change, but at least in front of a lot you did it you're not going to say don't do what

you say if you need to do it, do at least type one only. And that's what Stan allowed, but don't do type two and type three, let alone It is not allowed in the country, let alone with all the side effects and the breeding, and the trauma and all all this it's a matter of education. You have to do campaigns in places where it is very common. Absolutely. Just like we now talk to teenagers, Muslims, about drugs or alcohol all this you know it's reality. We are seeing it and what we can do is educate.

Okay, we'd like to call our next sister Fatima.

As a PhD student, and studying FGM is Mila, we welcome your brief comment. Yes, thank you. Thank you sister Halima joining you here from London in the UK. And yeah, I thank you so much for for this because I have as Salima said I'm doing my PhD research on FGM and I have been looking for really concrete perspective from Islamic point of view. So this was really beneficial for me. And I'm also a psychotherapist and I work with FGM survivors are victims of FGM and from Somalia where the most severe type is practiced. And

what there was a question that someone asked which was, you know, if type one and the clitoris and what is cotton, all of that, and I think the World Health Organization classifies type one into two different type one a and type one B, where sometimes it's not the whole clutter is that is cut but the clitoral hood, which is the most the closest equivalent to male circumcision.

And since the hi fi asked you a personal question, and you don't have to answer it, maybe you could answer me on the chat. Hi, no, no, no.

Okay, no problem. I will not say what it is. But I think

what I wanted to ask is

the because

we know as Muslims that what the prophet said there is no confirmation whether he Bibi to his daughters or not.

How can we because a lot of negativity and there's a lot of Islamophobia out there. And FGM is one of the biggest one that non Muslims are sort of saying look at what they're doing to the woman How can we as a group, come up with an explanation that is not contradicting what we are recommended as Muslims. And what the West is about says about Islam Thank you

so much. For your I love the British accent.

There is Islam a lot of practice and is now the West look at it as it is

degrading to woman hijab is one of them. How many times you have to go around and defend the fact that I did it by choice, I'm sure one of the Muslims with me here. How many times do people look at you and says, Oh, so it's not your father who told you to do it or your husband told you to do? So the fact that I have to explain about it's not this is looks like a life mission to Panama. However, I need to say it I need to be convinced that Islam allowed type one and the type one if you want to divide them number one, number two is an obligation it's a choice. Culture comes in as we have this issue in many parts of the world Muslim war where culture comes in, in a lot of people think Islam

is that culture and the reality is not and I always say this when I speak to the interfaith judge the religion by the religion, not by the people practice this is how I received and I will say this is how it is type one type one a what it is a minimum, there is so medical benefits so people have written about about that. But in general that's a practice done in certain parts of the world. If it is done correctly, to the minimum it's it's that's their choice, but the type two and type three and the more mutilation. Islam will not allow it. And if it is done, it's done because of culture. This is how I will explain it. Okay, so inshallah just to be more specific, type one a and not removing

the clearest I think there's a little bit of confusion now because a type one a in some organizations is divided between 20 A and one b, w. If you look what I shared with each for who they don't divide, a and b in the in the one I

shared with you, but from the hadith of Rasul Allah risotto Sarah, that's how we understand our religion when he told the woman don't remove the part that the husband like and the woman like what is it? It's, it's the clitoris, where is orgasm? How the woman feels it through the clitoris. I think there was a question earlier that we didn't get to about what is it about? I really it was a Stephanie thought state I want to get to that question. Why is it reflecting on maybe she can repost it? Why is it Oh, I'm wondering why the reason for female circumcision, the reason being, the thinking being behind it or whatever you want to call it that Islam is saying to reduce desire.

Well, I'll tell you what I say this all the time. Islam is not enough prevention.

Islam is not a dental treatment. And people always look at Islam as a gene of prayer of treatment. And that's where the misunderstanding meaning Islam that people say, let's take stealing. Islamic law tells you, if you steal something, and it is proven, your hand is caught, that's a treatment. But there is a lot of prevention before, to not let people reach that level. One of them is Zakah. What we Muslims we pay, so there will be no poor people. So there's no poor people that needs end up in, in stealing. So Islam is actually a

religion of prevention. When it says the desire again, this is a translation from a fatwa in Arabic is a protection, the way they look at it, sort of them look at it, and again, type one, that it has medical benefits and decrease the desire for the woman is it, the woman has to have less desire? No, but it is one of the benefits of it. Or one of the thinking that why it has been done. But look at the hadith of Rasul Allah Software Center, what he specified, when he told the woman don't cut that will, she will not have pleasure, the meaning meaning of it, or of the man. So again, you cannot look at it in five minutes. And you can judge the whole religion by this way. And you have to look

at what exactly this word mean, and it where it applies. And Islam is not one size fits all. It's all depends on it. But in the culture when you ask, and I've asked some of my patients, that's the answer you get. Somehow I don't know you're having a you're from originally parents from African American. Yeah, here. Yeah. So do they do it? I haven't seen it in the African American female. No, no. Okay. I haven't seen. Yeah. And then the other question was, I think this is going to be our last question. Did what were the some of the medical benefits sang for female circumcision? Did you read that? Some? A couple. Yeah, I read quickly. I read the quarterly. But again, when you read, I

did not look at the research. So it was just a conclusion. So I this is why I didn't share it. Because I don't want to get benefits without a sound research to support it. They said a decrease the infection. I don't know exactly what they meant with that, you know what I'm saying? So this is why I don't I don't comment on it. Does it really have a medical benefit? They say it's less a swelling of the clitoris. I need to see these on which phases they reached this conclusion. Okay, inshallah, you can share that study for us to read also, I find it.

Yeah, it was a conclusion. Okay, naming a physician. Okay. add on to that. I don't think I've, I would love to see that resource too, because I haven't come across any benefits of female circumcision for females versus you know what I mean, the one for for the male. So, I don't know. You know, I would love to see if there's something out there. But I just haven't found anything that is substantial myself either. Okay. Well, I'd love to offer Dr. Haifa or sister Pfizer any closing remarks since we're going over a minute of time here. Want to make some ending announcements if you y'all have any closing remarks?

Maybe you don't it's okay to? Um, did I feel bad? I mean, this is how I will say praise always told us panel time that he's teaching us. And I will say exactly what I started is, is let's be open, open to other opinions. And let's play it safe. And let's do what is pleasing to Allah subhanaw taala This is the most important thing and let's not judge people. Let's not judge this way or that way. And deserve more lucky. Thank you so much, man lighting, what do you this is really good. I have not had somebody. We have talked about it in residency as the last time we talked about.

And it was a completely medical, but this was years ago. So does that mean like it's a very interesting topic to discuss, to be honest with you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, this is very enriching. Go ahead. surpriser Yeah, I would just echo the same words to Dr. Use of that. This is considered it is a celebratory thing in the countries that it's done. But in here in America, people feel ashamed to even admit when you're doing their initial visit, that they have had this procedure done. So just make sure that you are sensitive to their needs. And you know, all we can do as healthcare providers is to sort of talk talk to them about you know, what I mean some of the, some of the adverse factors

and then encourage them to, you know, if they're going to do it, do it the less of your one and not, you know,

not make make them feel like as if they're backwards or you know what I mean? Just yet

Just Let's be cautious.

You know that we're not committing that as well. Yeah, not judging. Let's put it this way. Let's not judge people. Yeah, no, I mean, yeah, that's part of what we're talking about is having compassion, and not being judgmental, being really respectful of different cultures and different practices.

So thank you for joining us today. We're want to just this conversation is by far not complete. Next week, we have an invited guest, midwife and Dan from Somaliland. And the discussion why compassion and midwifery care matters so much. Also, you will be able to ask your questions in Sharla.

She will be 9am in the morning in for us here in California, but 8pm at night for her in Somalia. So I really hope that we can do our best to honor our guest and attend her.

Her talk next week in one week, next week. If you want more information to join our Muslim Student midwife group, you can email me and we have a we're on a group chat and we meet monthly with different topics. This is one of the topics that we had for our midwifery Muslim Student group. And we'd love to meet you and hear more. I wanted to say in closing, you know that thank you very much for your prayers and your and your support. And thank you very much for coming today and letting this topic really let's get get down to the really important topics that are as women that we need to get to some of the things that we need to have for discussion. Mashallah. So May Allah preserve

us and the knowledge that he's given us make it beneficial knowledge and increases in knowledge and protect us from all harms and ills and illnesses. And with that, I'll say good afternoon to you, Austin. I'm on a coma Rahmatullah baetica

thank you so much for coming back to Haifa visor.