Vs Dr Robert Douglas Crucifixion Fact Or Fiction
Channel: Ahmed Deedat
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Episode Transcript ©
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Bismillah Ar Rahman Rahim
In the name of Allah,
most Gracious, Most Merciful.
My beloved brothers and sisters and friends,
Muslims and Christians.
welcome you tonight to this very historic debate entitled crucifixion,
facts or fiction.
The debate the format of tonight's debate.
The first speaker
will speak for 50 minutes.
The second speaker will speak for 60 minutes
and the first speaker will come again and speak for 10 minutes.
After that you the audience will have an opportunity to participate and ask your questions.
So with that brothers and sisters, I'm going to flip the coin and x the gentlemen to choose Head or tails and the one who wins will have the choice to begin or not to begin.
I will be leaving shaytan al rajim Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem laku, Jarl Hakuna hoppel barthel in Alberta, Canada huka. onesie Romina Maharshi found warahmatullah mean? Well, I mean a la Sora. So the cola so the colonial regime, Mr. Chairman,
and my dear brothers and sisters.
At the outset, since I'm beginning the talk, and I see a lot of faces, which appear to me to be those of the Christian faith.
I would like to put forth our position with Avi Christianity, that Islam is the only non Christian faith
which makes it an article of faith for his followers to believe in Jesus.
No Muslim is a Muslim, he does not believe in Jesus. We are made to believe that Jesus Christ was one of the mightiest messengers of God. We believe in his miraculous birth, which many modern day Christians do not believe today. We believe that he was the Messiah, translated Christ. And we believe that he gave life to the dead by God's permission, and he healed those born blind and the lepers by God's permission.
As such, the Muslim and the Christian is going together.
But the parting of the way, takes place on three basis. Number one, the original sin number two, the divinity of Christ. And number three, the crucifixion. These are points of differences between the Muslims and the Christians
with regard to the subject of crucifixion, as you see here, on this
banner here, it says crucifixion
fact or fiction?
Now the Holy Quran gives a direct answer to that question.
It says Bismillahi Rahmani Raheem. In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
was only him in Nakata in Nakata lol merci ha resub no Maria Maria Rasulullah is the end they said in boast that we kill Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the apostle of God.
The Quran goes on suwama kata aloo masala boo. They didn't kill him. No, did they crucify him? Well, I can shoot him but it was made to appear to them. So why in Allah Zenith Allah foofy Luffy Shakti min home and those who dispute there in a full of doubts Marla who may mean they have no certain knowledge electabuzz Xin The only follow conjecture, guesswork fiction.
Mama Fatah lujah tienen. For assurity. They kill him not.
It calls this event described by the Christian as crucifixion. See, as you see if x is crucifixion to fix a person on the cross anyhow by meals or ropes or strings and have him killed. to crucify means to kill by hanging or impaling on the cross F x IO inclusive
We say it is true sci fi CGI in fiction, it sounds the same crucifixion or crucifixion, the spelling Jesus the difference between the two, that in the Islamic point of view, it is a fiction.
Now, when we say that it is a fiction,
the Christian brings what produces his book of evidence. He says, Here, we have a written record by eyewitnesses and your witnesses to the happenings some 2000 years ago, that Jesus Christ was hanged and killed on the cross some 2000 years ago.
Now, what I'm going to do tonight is instead of telling you this is what the Muslim say, this is what the Quran says. I said, Look, I want to show to you, that the Bible that you hold in your hands, whatever version you have,
you will find the verses that I'm going to quote, and the argument I'm going to use,
see Jesus Christ
after his alleged crucifixion,
alleged crucifixion, he returns to that upper room
where they had the Last Supper.
And he walks in, and he says, Shalom, shalom in Hebrew, meaning peace be unto you. When he said, peace be unto you, his disciples were terrified.
So I'm asking him, I learned friends. I have been doing this for quite some time, my lunette friends of Christianity. Why were they terrified?
Because when you meet your long lost Master, your uncle, your grandfather,
your priest, your guru,
the Arabs and the Jews will embrace one another, kiss one another, in the neck. That's how they meet when they show the love and compassion for one another. Instead of doing that, the disciples of Jesus were terrified.
I want to know why.
Why were they terrified?
So the Christian tells me says, you see in Luke chapter 24, we are told by Luke that they were afraid that because they thought he was a spirit.
The wordings are, they thought
he was a spirit. A ghost is poop.
So I'm asking, did he look like a spirit? Does it look like a ghost? Did he look like a spook?
The Christian says, No. Then I said, why should they think the man is a spirit when he didn't look like one?
So he gets puzzled. This is my experience with the most learned men of Christianity, they get puzzled.
Why would they think the man is a spirit when he doesn't look like a spirit?
I said, The reason is that the disciples of Jesus they had heard from here say, people were talking that the master was hanged on the cross.
They had heard from hearsay, people were talking that he had given up the coast. In other spirits that come out, he had died.
They had heard from hearsay what people were talking
that he is now dead and buried for three days. A man with such a reputation, you expect that man to be stinking in his grave after three days, because all the knowledge of the disciples was from hearsay. Because Mark, chapter 14 was 50. He says that at the most critical juncture in the life of Jesus, all his disciples forsook him and fled. All his disciples, they forsook him and fled, which means they were not eyewitnesses or your witnesses to the happenings. The knowledge was from hearsay. So on hearsay evidence, if you know about a man who is dead embedded,
and when you see such a person, seemingly that person, naturally are terrified, because you're thinking the man is a
So Jesus Christ, wanting to assure them, that is not what they're thinking. He says, and I'm quoting,
he says, Behold, my hands and my feet, look, have a look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself and the same fellow man, what's wrong with you? What are you afraid of me for is a handle me and see,
handle me and see, for a spirit has no flesh and bones, as you see me have a spirit means any spirit. This is an axiomatic truth. You don't have to prove this to the Jews.
To the atheist, to the agnostics. It's an axiomatic truth universally accepted that a spirit will not have flesh and bones.
Then why is Jesus at pains to tell them so and in fact
Well known and accepted.
The reason is, because the disciples of Jesus with thinking the man has come back from the dead, he was resurrected. He was spiritualized. That is reason. So it's telling them, I am not what you are thinking. I'm not a spirit, not a ghost. I'm not a spoke.
And they handle him.
And they believe not for joy. It means they were overjoyed and wondered, What happened, man.
We thought the man was they didn't bear it. But we can see he's demonstrating that he is himself flesh and blood.
And they believe no for joy and wonder. So Jesus wants to assure them further, he says, have you here any meat,
something to eat. And they gave him a piece of broiled fish and a honeycomb. And he took it any act
in the very sight to prove that there is a ghost. That is a spook, that is a spirit, no, to prove that he is himself, and he is not resurrected, because the resurrected bodies get spiritualized.
Who says so?
I say Paul, who says so I say Jesus, who says so I say each and every one of you.
Each and every one of you will admit that the resurrect body won't be this. Flesh and blood, flesh and bones. It will be spiritualized. But the greatest testifier of the Scriptures, Paul of Christianity, Paul, in his book of Corinthians, First Corinthians chapter 15, he says,
talking about the resurrection of Christ, the whole chapter in some Bibles is headed, the resurrection of Christ. The chapter itself is at this His resurrection of Christ. In verse three, he says,
Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures was for
and he was raised again from the dead. according to the Scriptures, the scriptures that he's talking about, is not Matthew, Mark, Luke and john, because they will not written his is about 56. Before, after Christ, and the others goes to about 60, according to Christian scholars, so he's not referring to Matthew, Mark, Luke and john. He was, you know, going through them and found out what was what No, he's speaking from his knowledge of the Old Testament. Verse 14, he says,
If Christ is not risen from the dead, our preaching is vain. Your faith is vain.
In other words, Christianity has nothing to offer mankind you have nothing to offer.
And I can assure you that that in my country, the Christian missionary, when it comes to homes, he does not come to tell us about hygiene, personal hygiene. I mean, we Muslims are the most hygienic people on earth. I will not go into details. This is not the occasion, the most hygienic people on earth.
At question time, you may ask and I will demonstrate to you I'll explain to you. We are the most hospitable people on earth.
In ethics, and in morality, you can point a finger at us that we are better than you known, no group of religious groups in my country can show a candle to us that we are better than you. The only thing he can tell us is that you have no salvation.
Because salvation only comes with the blood of the Lord Jesus, which you do not accept. That's the only thing he has to tell us.
So, Paul says
that, if this is didn't happen, then your preaching is vain, useless, worthless. And your faith is also useless, worthless, as the American would put it is all garbage. Your religion is garbage. If you didn't have this, this is the only sales point that you have. Then in verse 35, he says, someone may rationally ask,
how do the dead rise again, and with what kind of body will they come?
He poses this question not seeking information from us. But is there a trick question and he himself answers it in verse 42.
He says, there that that which is so on, means buried, is sown in weakness, it is raised in power, it is sown in corruption, and it is raised employee. It is sown means buried a physical body and it is raised a spiritual body.
Once you die, this body this physical body is put into the dust, dust with dust, from dust out and to dust yourself.
Return finished. But when you're resurrected, it is not the dust. It will be a spiritualized body, according to St. Paul. And on that premise, the whole of his 14 books in the New Testament written more than half the New Testament was written by Paul 14 out of the 27 books. And the whole premises of his argument is that Christ was risen from the dead and resurrected spiritually, a spiritual body, when people say spiritual body, they think well body what is body you look at the dictionary and then you say, look, body has has as mass volume dimensions. So it says, You see, there was a body. I said, this is an apparition, when you see an apparition, what is the apparition it appears
to us in the form of a body?
The ghost you see the world What do you see you see something that appears to be a human kind. But we know that thing is something you can grapple with, you can grasp it, you can pocket it.
You see the filmmakers, you American filmmakers in Hollywood, they made these things, something that we can imagine far more easily, again, and again, they conjure up, you know, somebody's coming out through a keyhole, a steam comes out. And then you find it materialized into a man, the Invisible Man, or Sabu. You know, he played the thief of Baghdad, in which you see that he picks up a bottle on the seashore, and he opens a bottle, and something comes out like a smoke and it materializes in the genie. But that Genie has a form. It has a body, but it is an invisible imperceptible body, something that you can't grapple with, but you see a body you see a body, it was only thin air, you
see nothing, it might be there, but you see nothing. So it materializes. So we say it appears to us in the form of a body. So spiritual body, says St. Paul. That's his understanding of the resurrection. Everybody, anybody, even you are resurrected, you will be spiritualized.
And he was only confirming what Jesus had said in the Gospel of St. Luke, according to the records, Chapter 20.
has some water placed
in chapter 20, of Luke,
we read there, that the Jews, his own people, they come to Him,
they will always coming to him with poses and riddles.
Trying to trip this man of God.
Now they come to him. And they say Master, in the Hebrew language, Rabbi, respected learning learned man, priest, Bishop, whatever, Rabbi,
there was a woman among us.
And that woman, according to a Jewish practice had seven husbands.
See, there was a Jewish custom that if one brother died, and he if he left New offsprings, then the second brother takes her to wife.
And when he fails and dies, the third fellow takes her to wife. And when he fails and dies, the fourth and the fifth, and the sixth, and the seventh, seven guys had this one woman, one after another, but there was no problem because it was all one by one.
So they're asking Jesus now that the resurrection, which guy is gonna have her, because they all had her here. So if you have her here, you will have her on the other side, this is natural.
Suppose you and your wife resurrected. And you see on the other side means a darling Sweetheart, come, sweetie, this is this is natural. If you recognize your wife,
you know, on the other side, he says, Well, you know, the closeness that you have established on this earth for five years, 50 years you have been together as husband and wife. Now you want to establish or continue the same relationship on the other side. But at the resurrection, since everybody is resurrected, instantaneously, you know, simultaneously, same time, then the seven brothers waking up one time, and they see this woman, then everybody will be going after her.
You see, this is this is mine. I had her the other guys this is mine. I had her. Everybody had her. And everybody will be fighting over this one woman as wife
until the war in heaven between the seven brothers if we can get away This is mine. This is this is mine. Now where you come from?
Because they won't remember the other guys have been here before them.
So they want to know from Jesus, which guys want to have her on the other side, because they all had her here.
In answer to that Jesus says,
Is this neither shall they die any more. Meaning that once they are resurrected, they will be immortal.
Neither shall they die any more.
They will be immortalized. In other words, the things that kill a person,
lack of food, shelter, clothing, rest, these things will not be necessary on the other side. Once you die, you do not die a second time. No more that immortalized. This is a physical body. This is God's physical needs food, shelter, clothing, sex, rest, that body, no food, no shelter, no clothing, no sex, no rest of the time that we know. You have some time, other times spiritual time, but not this time. So it says neither shall they die anymore, for they are equal and to the angels. In other words, they will be in July.
They'll have spiritual bodies like angels, what kind of bodies they have now this for the equal and to the angels, they will be Angel Eyes, they will be spiritualized they will have spiritual bodies, they will be spirit.
For their equal unto the angels and the children of God, for such are the children of the resurrection such
spirits, they will be such spirits. Paul says spirits.
I wonder if there is a single person here who take exception to that he says it'll be this body. Is there one here in the Royal Albert Hall? In front of some 6000 people in London, I posed the question and there was not a single Muslim or Christian who could take exception to these axiomatic truths, that resurrection, in that at that time, your bodies will be spiritualized Paul says so Jesus, so I say so. And you say so.
So he says the spirit has no flesh and bones. In others. I'm not what you're thinking. You are thinking that I've come back from the dead, that is not so I'm not resurrected.
And yet the whole Christian world.
They say that he died and he was resurrected. The man says I am not what you are thinking eating boiled fish and honeycomb. These are the needs of this physical body.
But somehow, you see people get programmed.
I was talking about people getting brainwashed. at the Berkeley University in 1977. I was talking to the My American people, some teachers and students. And I said you people are brainwashed.
So one professor stood up is I beg your pardon? We are programmed. I said I programmed,
not brainwashed. So we all get programmed, see from childhood, because our salvation depends on this, that we must believe that Christ died and was resurrected. But resurrection is spiritual, spiritual. And we find that everything about Jesus after his post crucifixion events, not once does he appear to be a spirit
he's ever in hiding. He's ever in hiding. He never came out into the open. He never went to the temple of Jerusalem. He had given the Jews a sign. He never went to fulfill that sign sign means a miracle.
To say look, you remember what I told you? Here I am. Do what you do your worst. But he didn't dare do anything. He didn't dare to go to meet these people, the Jews, his own people.
He had given them a sign.
In Matthew chapter 12, was 3839 40. We read there, again, the same type of type of confrontation, the Jews come along and they said Master, again, in the Hebrew language rabbi,
we would have a sign of V. In other words, we want you to show us a miracle to convince as that you are above the ordinary. You are the man we are waiting for the Messiah. Do something like flying in a like a bird, walk on the water, give life to the dead do something man, then we know that you are above the ordinary, so that we can believe that you are our Messiah.
In response to that Jesus says to his people, he said an evil and adulterous generation secret affair a sign as a horrible nation horrible people. You looking for miracles, tricks, tricks to convince you that I am a genuine man of God. You want me to show you some tricks. Magic? is an evil and adulterous generation, secret after a sign but there shall no sign be given unto it. No sign no miracle,
except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Only one man but one.
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of man that is
Getting to himself be three days and three nights in the belly of the earth.
This is the only sign I'm prepared to give you the only miracle I'm prepared to concede to is this. He didn't say, you know, blind body mass, I heard him, you know, that woman with issues bleeding profusely for years, she touched me and she got healed. You know, I brought the glasses back from the dead. You know, that girl, she had died and I brought her back, you know, the fig tree. I destroyed it from its very roots, you know, I killed those 2000 pigs, you know, I turn water into wine, nothing, nothing of the kind. He never showed any of these things. Look back, look back then what I have done so far. The only sign I'm prepared to give you is a sign of Jonah. What happened to
Jonah is going to happen to me, his miracle is my miracle. And I have been asking this missionaries have Christian done this hard gospel as his Bible thumpers evangelist preaches. I said, What was that sign?
He said, The my sign is the sign of Jonah. I said, What was that sign? And believe me, in 40 years new Christian, was the name has ever come forward to tell me what was that sign? I said, Did you fulfill it? He said, Yes. I said, What? How speechless?
Of course, are Dr. Robert Douglas may be better prepared, he might know all these things beforehand. He is a missionary, you know, in the Middle East among the Muslims has been and he's somebody big in the swimmer Institute.
He might have the answer, but I will give it to me Casey face I might as well give you beforehand.
What was the sign? I said, Look, to get the sign to know what was the sign of Jonah, you have to go to the book of Jonah in the Bible.
And that book of Jonah is one page. This is the page for short chapters, one page. So if you go to the book of Jonah, it won't take you two minutes. It won't take you two minutes to read this book, this whole book. It won't take you two minutes.
So we read there, that Jonah was sent to the ninevites. God Almighty commands him, go to Nineveh and warn the people that they must repent in sackcloth and ashes, humble themselves before the Lord. Otherwise, I will display the people.
Jonah, a prophet of God, but he is human. He feels despondent. He said this materialistic people. They will not hack into the message. They will make a mockery out of me as Jesus described them as wicked and adulterous generation, this wicked and adulterous generation of Jonah's time, they're going to make a mockery of him. So he says, instead of going to Nineveh, to warn the people, he goes to Joppa and takes a boat and he's running away to Tarshish. You don't have to remember the names.
He instead of going to one direction, he goes in the opposite direction, and he's running away.
xe there is a strong, and according to the superstitions of these people, Whosoever runs away from his masters command, deserves his duty, cause for such punishment. So they began to question who can be responsible for this, however, because the storm is not abiding, is not subsided.
So Jonah, he realizes that he is the guilty person, because actually, he's running away from his masters, come on, God tells him to go to Nineveh, and he's going to chop up as a soldier of God, he had no right to do things presumptuously. So he makes a manly comeback.
He said, I'm the duty man, and it is expedient that you take me and you throw me into the sea.
And God will be satisfied because actually is after my blood, not you. And because of me, you innocent people will die is better for you, that you throw me into the sea.
One man perish, save the nation. This is no You are such a nice man, holy man, maybe praying continuously. He said we have a system of our own
our own system to find out right from wrong. And that system is a system what is called casting of lots, like head or tail. We do head or tail we did is just now Halo tail.
So they had a system of casting lots like head rotate. And according to that system of passing the time, it came to the turn of Jonah, that Jonah was the guilty man. So they took him and they threw him overboard.
And the storm subsided. Perhaps it was a coincidence, but the stop subside.
Now, I'm asking the question,
but when they threw Jonah overboard, was it dead or was he alive? But before you answer
I don't want to get the wrong answer.
Because once you give the wrong answer, you want to stick by it. This is human nature. You know, once you make a wrong statement, you don't like to admit your mistake. So I want to help you before you open your mouth. You don't mind.
As you see Jonah had volunteered. He had volunteered, he says threw me overboard. And when a man oh,
you know, volunteers. You don't have to strangle him before three.
Here is what it is through me. You don't have to kill him. You don't have to break his arm or limb. You don't have to spear him. Am I right? The man says throwing. So when they threw him overboard was he did or was he alive? I want to hear from you all. And please, I want to hear that it can also be recorded on our tapes, please, once he did, or was he alive in the room overboard? What?
You got the right answer, but you get no prize for that.
It was too simple. As this is very simple. The juicy, he was alive. The Christians he was alive. The Muslims he was alive. New price.
The stone subsides and the fish comes and gobbles them up. Dead or Alive.
From the fish's belly, he prays to God for health according to the book of Jonah.
I'm asking do dedmon pray that people do they pray? No. So so he was alive? A little louder, pace, Li Masha.
Three, you will be given the opportunity at Question Time whoever you are, you will be given the opportunity at question time to ask questions. Be man enough, be Christian enough to please keep your mouth shut for the moment.
Three days, three days and three nights. The fish takes him down the ocean. There are a lie, lie. Don't be afraid, don't get terrified.
On the third day, the fish vomiting on the seashore. They are alive.
Whether you are a Hindu, or a Christian, or a Jew, or a Muslim, if you read this record and if you had sound common sense, you will say alive, alive, alive alive. And it's a miracle. It's a miracle of miracles. When you throw a man into raging sea you are to die.
If he died no miracle because we expect him to die.
A fish comes and God is a man, he ought to die. If he died, no miracle.
He didn't die some miracle
sheet and suffocation in the belly of the way. The men are to die three days and three nights you're to die if he died. pneumococcal pneumonia is a no sign. If he didn't die, it's a miracle.
So it's a miracle, a miracle a miracle and outstanding miracle in the Bible three times over. It's a miracle from every point of view. So Jesus says For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, social the son of Mandy three days and three nights in the belly of the earth, as Jonah was social the Son of man be asking how was Jonah for three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, dead or alive?
I'm asking again. How was Jesus in the womb for three days and three nights? There are and I
beg your pardon? According to Christian gum.
as the professor asked the doctor, he said he was dead for three days and three nights.
Jonah was alive for three days and three nights Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. Any Christian was the name will tell you that any Christian You don't have to be a DD and you don't have to be a theologian, or a preacher or an evangelist hearing voices from heaven. You know?
Jonah is alive. The Christian says Jesus was dead. I'm asking in your language. You English speaking peoples. You Americans who speak English. The Englishman who speaks English I speak English. I speak English as my mother tongue. See, this is the nearest because psychologists say that your mother tongue is the language in which you dream and the language in which you swear. And I dream in English and I swear in English.
So from that angle, I'm also an English man. Say I'm an English speaking person. Though my mother tongue is Gujarati as people do. I speak half a dozen different languages, but my mother tongue is English according to the psychologists.
So I'm asking in your language, those I'm sure all of you understand English, otherwise you won't be here.
I said the new language, you see,
is this like Jonah, or unlike Jonah Jesus's For as Jonah was
soon as Li Jesus did is that in your language like Jonah, unlike Jonah in your language.
So I'm asking now is Jesus speaking the truth? Are you speaking the truth? Is Jesus a liar? Or you are a liar?
either look, you both can be right. He said, I'll be like Jonah. And you tell him he's not like Jonah. So he failed, or he lied, or you are lying?
That You Are you have misunderstood the whole thing. You read English in your language, simple, basic English, King's English of Queen's English. This language I'm talking For as Jonah was social the Son of man be like Jonah, not unlike the very learned person. He says, No, no, no, no, Mr. de de. You see, Jesus is here emphasizing the time factor.
I said there is nothing miraculous about a time factor with a man is, you know, dead. I mean, unconscious, or going into hibernation for three minutes, three days, three hours, three years. That is not a miracle. The miracle is that you expect them to die and he doesn't die. That's a miracle. But drowning men clutching at straws. He says no, no, no, Mr. deedat. You see, it is the time factor that Jesus was emphasizing Can't you see he said For as Jonah was three days and three nights social the son of Mandy three days and three nights. He repeats over three four times. So it's the time factor
that he was emphasizing not whether dead or alive.
So I'm asking
look, did he fulfill that
the time factor did he fulfill that is yes. I said if you want to make another strip just now you're gonna fall again. You have made one for par. You have made one mistake you are accused Jesus of lying. He said I'll be like Jonah. You say well, unlike Jonah, he didn't fulfill it. And you will make a second mistake just now. But no, no drowning man fetches at straws. And you'll find drowning women will do the same thing.
So I said Now look, when was he crucified? When was Jesus crucified and Christian them as a whole? They give you the answer. Good Friday. Have you had a good idea? Good Friday in your country here. We have it in South Africa. They call it an African school Friday. Good Friday. In South Africa. We celebrate Good Friday. Swaziland, the pseudo Zambia Zimbabwe, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, name them name them. Every Christian nation on Earth commemorates Good Friday.
What makes Good Friday good. This a Christ died for our sin. Is that what makes it good? Is it yours? So it wasn't a good Friday? Yes. Okay. When was he crucified morning or afternoon?
When? Sunday morning, Sunday afternoon, as I want it, whatever you say I accept How long was he on the cross? Some say three hours. Some say six hours. I say I won't argue with you. I won't argue you say three I accept it as a six I accept.
I said you know, the Jews were in a hurry to put him up on the cross. That's the reading of the Scriptures. Why we they're in a hurry. Because they were afraid of the common people. Jesus was a hero to the common people. He had healed the blind the lepers had given life back to the dead. On one occasion, he had 5000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread. On another occasion, another 3000 people with a few pieces of fish and a few pieces of bread and man has such a reputation. The people love the man. And if his life was endangered, there might be a revolt arrived.
So quickly, quickly, quickly, apprehend the man and get rid of him. So they grabbed him and they take him had a midnight trial with doesn't happen in jury midnight trial. Early in the morning they can take him to pilot and as a pilot had nothing else to do. He was waiting. He receives them and pilot says Look, this is not my kettle of fish taking to harrowed they take him to Harold Harold had nothing to do he was also waiting nothing to do these old people nothing to do they just waiting.
There is a look. This is thinking back to pilot the thinking back to pilot pilot is still waiting.
All these things happen at the double. Only these things happen in films in Hollywood. In real life. It doesn't happen but whatever you tell me I said I accept no arguments.
So finally they get him on the cross. We are told about three o'clock in the afternoon
and he's there for about three hours according to the Christian
As much as the Jews were in a hurry to put him up, queer people, they were also in a hurry to bring him down. You know why?
They were in a hurry to put him up not in a hurry to bring him down from the cross. You know why? Because of the Sabbath yamasa
because they were told in the book of Deuteronomy, that they must see that nobody is hanging on the tree on the Sabbath day that that land be not defiled with the Lord thy God given different inheritance. So for that, it was a filthy, dirty, sacrilegious thing for anybody to be hanging on the cross on the Sabbath day. And Sabbath begins at six o'clock on Friday.
According to the Muslims, the Jews, our day begins at sunset, they changes the Jews at sunset, the Muslims at sunset, we have sunset, we see the moon, we start fasting, at the end of the month, we see the moon you start fasting.
That's how the Jews count the days and the Muslims count the days. So Sabbath starts on Friday, six o'clock. So before that, they want to bring the body down. So Hurry, hurry, hurry, and they managed to bring the body down without breaking the legs. There's also a prophecy being fulfilled in that they brought him down.
And they gave him a burial wash.
Which takes about an hour hour and a half the Jewish Jewish burial bath hosel.
Then they put 100 pounds of miracles around him. And I put shroud around him and they put him into the bunker by now is already evening. There's no other way.
If this is what you're telling me the story is correct. then by the time they put him into the grave and did these things is already evening, so Friday night, he's supposed to be in the gray, watch my fingers.
Friday night, he's supposed to be in the gray. Saturday day, he's still supposed to be in the gray.
You see, I'm dividing the day into day and night. Because Jesus did the same is that far as Jonah was three days and three nights, the day into day and night, day and night, day and night.
For us, Jonah also assists Friday night, Saturday day,
Saturday night, Sunday morning, the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene goes to the to
the that's what the Bible says.
And the tomb was empty.
As it's supposed supposed supposed You know why? Because he could have come a Friday night. But because the Bible doesn't say that. I don't say that. But he could have come on Friday night.
So I'm asking how many days and how many nights? Can you see my fingers? You people? How many? Were Three,
two nights and a day,
say two nights in a day? And asking, Is it the same as what Jesus said for us? Jonah was three days and three nights. So shall the Son of man be three days and three nights? I'm asking Look at this. Is it the same?
Is it the same unless you're blind?
So he failed again. There is no mathematician on Earth, even your Einstein. He can help you here. Yes, you have to follow Herbert Armstrong. You have to listen to Herbert Armstrong.
He says how you Americans behave in a religious meeting.
I said you have to go and follow her but Armstrong is dead now. But his hierarchy continues to climb through the the magazine the publishing 8,080,000 a month free distribution won't get it and they will tell you that Jesus Christ was not crucified on a Good Friday. They say it was a good Wednesday. You know that is a new trend. And 8,000,008 Monday pushing out 8 million is gonna brainwash the whole of Christian sooner or later you'll find everybody's talking about a good Wednesday a good Wednesday, a good Wednesday, and I'm telling my people in South Africa. If our government if they ever change Good Friday to goods, good Wednesday, we are going to protest we will
march on Parliament House. You know why? Because Good Friday is a good day for the Muslims to you know why? Because our people are workers in factories all over. You are able to go to the mosque on Fridays. gather together and we have the biggest gatherings on Good Friday in our machines. And we have three days holiday. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Once is good Wednesday you have only one day holiday. So I said we will march on the Parliament House and I said you my president says are you prepared Will You Be prepared to follow me and 100% so we will follow you march on to Parliament House will never allow good Wednesday to come about because it won't suit us. But the Christians you
are in a quandary. The Mighty messenger of God according to you. He fails a second time in fulfilling one
I said, Look this man, you say he came to die for the sins of the world.
Look at it at that even for that on the verge of that Good Friday on the Thursday. He's takes his disciples to that upper room, and they're having the supper. And at the supper table is telling them, it says, you remember when I sent you out in your mission of preaching and healing? I told you that you must carry nothing with you newspapers, no shoes, no stop. No steak. Did you like anything? This is Movie like nothing. This is but now I tell you, those of you who have no source must sell your garments and buy them
sword swords, you know, to chop off people's heads. So he's telling them to buy swords? So one of them said, Master, we have two already. So he says is enough.
Why should two swords Vina what you want to do with swords carrying apples, bananas, what do you do with thought chop off people's heads.
And he's telling you in the Gospel of St. Luke, chapter 19, verse 27, is a for those my enemies who would not that I should reign over them, I'll become the ruler, the king says, bring them together and slay them before me with what with your fingers. But you still don't we'll bring them here and slay them before me cut the throat. If those of you who are not prepared to accept me as your king, bring them and kill him.
So now he's telling them arm themselves in the arm themselves to the limit.
And he takes them to the garden of gets me. I said What for?
To play, as a company operate in that upper room khundii have gone to the temple of Jerusalem a stone's throw from where he was.
Couldn't have done that. Why get 70
I said, Look, there is a strategy involved. When he takes his disciples to get something in the middle of the night, not for prayer. He puts eight men at the gate is the study here and watch with me. And he takes with him Peter, and the two Sons of Liberty, those Fighting Irish men of the time. Peter the rock, and the Sons of Liberty, the Sons of Thunder, this is the title given to them fighting Irishman of the time among the Jews, he takes them into further into the garden, and he makes an inner line of defense. And it's a city here and watch with me watch what means keep God. And he went a little further and fell on his face and pray to God said Oh, my father, if it be
possible, let this capacity for me, meaning remove the difficulty from me, but not as I will. But as thou wilt. I want you to Oh my Lord, I want you to save me. But in the end, I put myself at your disposal. And being in an agony, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was as if it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground. What a choice. God Almighty has made a choice. There was a contract between father and son before the worlds began since the Christian. Before the worlds began, there was a contract between father and son. It says my son, I'll send you into the world in the year 4000, after Adam.
And I want you to die for the sins of mankind. It looks like Jesus didn't know anything about it. How is it behaving? Eight at the gate?
You should follow me. You sit here? Is this how you prepare for suicide? Is this how you prepare for sacrifice, a willing sacrifice?
You tell me. If you have ever served in the army at any time I've been with the scout scouts, boys or Girl Guides, you will be able to confirm that when you do things like that you are preparing a strategy of preparation not for that but for protection and swords. If the Jews were to come there is as I know my people, this is the spirit that the disciples were showing. They were beating the breast in that upper room samasta we are prepared to go to prison for you master we are prepared to die for you. Such people with sticks and stones and two swords. They will not help increase the Jews. But the Jews were cleverer than what he thought. They bring Roman soldiers with them. The
situation changes against trained men what can you do? They'll be cut to pieces here disciples. So Jesus says, Put down your sword because he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword didn't even notice before he knew but circumstances changes and the main changes is a master studies. But he had not come to die and he had not died as such he was neither killed nor crucified. You see all his actions post. crucifixion action supposed to be crucified after every action. Every move that he makes, the way he behaves is that a man who has escaped death by the skin of his teeth, not the one who has been resurrected.
Mr. Othman, Dida
Reverend, a pastor, Robert Douglas, and
you are fortunate in being able to be a part of a gathering such as this.
At the very outset, I want to make you aware that there are very few places in the world where this kind of a gathering could take place.
These sorts of discussions I'm sure take place in South Africa, I assume Mr. Ahmed de dot does such things quite regularly there. I know of him by reputation, and that he travels the world that he spoke in interaction of this kind in London some time back with a, an acquaintance of mine, Reverend, a nice, a nice shout out. And of course, he's here from time to time in the United States.
May I try to impress upon all of you the uniqueness of these kinds of gatherings? And that, in fact, they basically take place in those countries that we think of as Western countries. I would you suggest that the next one of these ought to be in Damascus, or in Cairo, or in Baghdad or in Rabat? But I know that that won't happen. That won't happen precisely. Because if not, the government's at least some of the peoples of those countries would not permit it. So I'm I'm glad to be a part of this gathering in that we have a context of this kind in which we can come together and talk about these matters.
I was truly interested in in what Mr. De Dodd had to say. And I want to touch very briefly on some of the points that he raised as I go through these few minutes that are allotted to me. But I want to start out by simply saying that he is absolutely right. From the Christian perspective, so much centered on the crucifixion, and the resurrection of Jesus Christ. I would disagree with him that the only thing that Christians have to offer is salvation through the blood of Jesus, I think that's an overstatement for your benefit. He knows better than that. Christians have many more things to offer than that, that are tremendously unique. But nevertheless, at the very center of what
Christianity purports to be, is the concept of the reality of the death, the crucifixion, and death, and burial and physical resurrection of Jesus from the dead. The gospels set this forth, as a statement. For example, in Matthew 27, verse 50, it simply says, that having been on the cross for a while, let me back up a few verses earlier, it says they crucified Him.
It then describes a series of events upon the cross and in verse 50, concludes that he gave up his spirit, whatever that means. In Mark chapter 15. Again, it states that they crucified Jesus. And in verse 37, it says he breathed his last. There's no question about what the Christian gospels are setting forth, namely, that Jesus was crucified, and that he in fact, did die on the cross. Now really, the issue that we're dealing with here is a deeper one.
I'll touch on the text or two that Mr. De dot shared with you just briefly. But ultimately, what we're talking about, though, we're not talking about directly, is the whole question of the reliability of the Bible. Mr. D, that is affirming tonight in his own indirect sort of way, that the Gospel of Matthew the Gospel of Mark the Gospel of Luke, the gospel of john and the writings of Peter, and Paul, and James, and the others who contributed material to make up the New Testament simply are unreliable, that they are faults, faults, at least to the extent that they affirm that Jesus died and arose from the dead. I find that an interesting kind of assumption that is behind all
of this discussion. You see, we can talk about the crucifixion and then we can talk about a spirit, spiritual body or a spiritualize body and, and three days and all of those things and dead or alive
In the belly of the fish, but that's really somehow diverting our attention from what sits
at the very center and core of all of this is can you trust God? That's the issue. And what kind of a god do you believe in?
Now, the Holy Book says, My covenant Will I not break, nor alter the things that have gone out of my lips.
Jesus said, heaven and earth shall not pass away, or heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away. And the Quran on several occasions affirms that none can change the words of God.
I would raise the question tonight. At the very outset, it seems unrelated but to me, it's centrally related.
Would any of you Muslims here tonight, dare to entertain the idea of changing the Quran?
No, say it louder.
You're absolutely right, the thought would not enter your mind.
Why? Because you believe that the word of God and you would they're not tamper with it.
And even if you decided to perish that thought,
you certainly would not be successful because Korans today are found from Fiji to Malaysia, to Indonesia, to Bangladesh, and India and Pakistan and Iraq and Syria. And do I need to continue to name the places Kansas City and Lawrence and Chicago, in New York City in Los Angeles, and boy in US attics, and Caracas, and on and on and on. So imagine the two of you, or 10 of you, or 100 of you, decided to get together and alter what the Quran says.
You would be discovered very, very quickly. Because there is no way that you somehow could gather up all of the Korans in the world, if you did people would say, what are those people in Lawrence doing with all of the neurons in the world?
That you see,
in effect, what you are having to say is
that what you would not entertain the thought of doing.
too, a book that they love as much as you love the Quran.
And that what you could not do because of the impossibility of it.
Somehow they did.
For very early.
The Christian message in written form was scattered among multitudes of peoples and languages, and countries, many of whom did not like each other, and did not trust each other, many of whom had different theological perspectives.
And you know what a problem that is.
You know, what happens in a religion class at Kansas University, if they offer such here in Islam?
When you have Shiite students and Sunni students, I know what happens, you know what happens? They're constantly watching each other in terms of how they might relate to whatever the professor says, because they disagree about certain things.
You may say, Well, they all agree about the Quran, and the five pillars that's beside the point. The point is, there is a degree at some level of suspicion and distrust. And so there was among those early Christian groups, I am ashamed to say.
And so there still is today among Christian groups, I would be a fool not to admit that. But the point is given that kind of a context,
given the fact that all Christians
who truly knows something of God, love God's word, the holy book, the Bible,
who would never change it, who would think to change it, and how would they bring it to pass?
And so you see,
given the fact that the New Testament affirms the crucifixion and the death and the resurrection of Jesus,
Mr. De Dodd is forced sin
To deal with a variety of things that and he could extend his list on out he has many more arguments than these that he could offer. But he's forced to deal with a variety of things that are not that weighty.
For example, He wants to talk about a spiritualized body and says, Who said so, Paul? Poor EXA? Jesus, Mr. dedup?
Can we equate spiritual with spirit or spiritualized is not to respect the context of the New Testament, and the possibility of a variety of meanings for the word for example, in Galatians, six and one, the apostle Paul says, and let those of you who are spiritual restore such a one
is he saying, Let those of you who have spiritualized bodies know
that Mr. De dot would have you understand that the word spiritual in First Corinthians 15, always must mean one in the same thing, namely, spirit or spirit ized. That's just bad, Jesus. That's not respecting the context of the New Testament and the variation in the possibility of the uses of words.
He tells us, for example, that when Jesus was betrayed, everyone fled. And so we have no eyewitnesses to his crucifixion, how do you know that?
That is an assumption.
The New Testament does not say having fled, they stayed away, you have to assume that and that is an assumption you make? Because it is one that somehow supports the position that you want to take.
He wants to say about Jesus and Jonah.
Was Jonah alive in the belly of the whale? Yes. And so is Jesus alive? He wants to talk about threes and so on. I'll tell you the answer to the sign Mr. d.it, is that Jonah was in tune.
It happened to be in a fish. And Jesus was in tune that happened to be in the earth, the issue is not three. The issue is not dead or alive. The issue is in two minutes.
I'm surprised to hear you admit, I think you admitted that Jesus was in the tomb alive for three days.
That's not standard Muslim doctrine.
Standard Muslim doctrine is that Jesus similitude or image somehow was imparted to someone standing nearby. And Jesus got away scot free and someone else was on the cross.
Well, that is a Muslim interpretation, is it not my friend?
If you would look among your scholars, if you would look at the range of opinions and interpretations, in Islamic theology, this is at least one perspective. Now, what's not being said to many of you people tonight, you Americans is this, that Islam has a great divergence of perspectives on a variety of issues.
But you're not going to hear that tonight. You're not going to learn that.
What is said to you tonight by one man is in effect reported as that which all Muslims believe about a certain thing. And we could pick 100 subjects tonight and discover considerable diversity. Jesus was in the tomb three days alive. I'm astonished.
What does three days equal? He asks? Well, I would suggest to you what is five minutes equal?
in Beirut, you'd better not take five minutes to mean five minutes on the clock. 60 seconds.
Because it does.
Can you repair my shoes? Yes. When they will. When will they be ready? Five minutes.
It means a little while.
It's very imprecise. You want to ask me, Dr. Douglas. How much time did you spend in Lawrence, Kansas two days?
When did you arrive?
Two o'clock Thursday.
When did you leave? Nine o'clock Friday.
That hardly sounds like 48 hours.
But it is two days.
For that is the way we use land.
wigeon that is the way the writers of the New Testament use language. And so you see, it's to trivialize the thing to come along. And in effect, begin to click down days and ask what's really going on here.
You have to respect the context, the the setting the way people in their own cultures deal with issues and subjects and so on and so forth. All right. Having said all of that, let me go on to say what I want to say.
that the holy book,
points, almost from its beginning, to the crucifixion, to the death and to the resurrection of Jesus. I cannot develop these in detail for you. And so I run the risk of appearing foolish in the process. But I invite you to look at them nonetheless. In the holy book, Genesis 22, we are told of Abraham, offering his son,
Muslims believe it was Ishmael.
The Book of Genesis says it was Isaac, that's another question altogether.
But in the course of this,
Isaac the son is this text says ask Where is the lamb for the bird offering? Abraham says, God will provide the lamb my son, Abraham ties his son and prepares to slit his throat.
And the Lord intervenes
and points him to a ram to an animal.
And the Lord said, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will bless you.
This is an allegory, a type and analogy, a true historical event also
pointing to the nature of God as a God willing, as it were to provide the lamb of sacrifice, which Jesus is identified as being Behold, the Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world, says john the baptist when he first encounters Jesus.
Similar things turn up at the Passover in the book of Exodus, in the 12th chapter.
There the people are called upon to take a lamb for the family. This Lamb has to be without defect, it must be slaughtered.
And God says, On that night, I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn, both men and animal, and I will bring judgment on all the Gods of Egypt, I am the Lord.
The blood will be for you a sign on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you.
Again, recall that the affirmation of the New Testament is that Jesus is the Lamb of God.
And the writing of the Apostle Paul which says Christ, our pascall or Passover lamb is offered.
Now either Jesus is the Lamb of God, either Jesus is the Passover lamb. On the type of the lamb offered in Egypt that prevented the death angel from slaying
are the scriptures that the Christians and the Jews have are unreliable.
And if they are unreliable, I submit to you tonight that God has failed.
Because God said his word would not pass away. God said he would preserve his word God said, no one can change his word.
In the Day of Atonement, as described in Leviticus 16.
Again, an analogy drawn out of the history of the Jews, on that particular day an animal. In fact, two elements play different roles, one becomes, in effect, the sacrifice for the sins of the people. The other while living
comes to carry all of the sins of the people far away into a lonely place where that scene no longer is present,
to for them to have to confront moment by moment and day by day.
The New Testament in the book of Hebrews chapters nine and 10, in a very extensive sort of way, the idea is developed that Jesus is both the priest and the sacrifice, the one who cancels and removes sin.
The Prophet spoke as well. One quick example from the book of Isaiah.
Now I understand that Mr. De dot will be tempted to say, that's an interesting prophecy. But where does it say that it has anything to do with Jesus?
Well, it doesn't, in the book of Isaiah. I mean, after, after all, Isaiah live 700 years before Jesus came along.
But as you come to the writings of the New Testament, as people saw more fully the purposes of God unfolding, they saw its meaning and made application.
Now they were either wrong or they're right. And if they're wrong, God failed. Because God said he would preserve his word and protect his word.
In 53, of Isaiah, we read, he was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth, he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before he shares his silence, so he did not open his mouth, by oppression and judgment.
By oppression and judgment, he was taken away, and who can speak of his descendants for he was cut off from the land of the living. For the transgression of my people, he was stricken, he was assigned a grave with the wicked. And with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
A little later, in the same portion we read, therefore, I will give him a portion among the great and he will divide the spoils with the strong because he poured out his life and to death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For He bore the sin of the many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Well, if you think about that, and read that carefully, you can see the connection between those statements, and what Abraham was doing earlier, and what took place at the Passover, and what happened in the Day of Atonement. And when you come to the New Testament, the same train of thought continues on
Jesus day death was foreshadowed and foretold.
Jesus during his life, spoke about his death. He did so indirectly. And of course, I know we can argue over what these verses mean. But for example, in john 219, he said, destroy this temple. And in three days, I will raise it again.
And he said this speaking of his body,
three times in the Gospel of john, Jesus speaks of being lifted up.
Now, in John's thinking, the idea of being lifted up is not only the idea of being lifted up on the cross, but also then being lifted up into heaven and exalted as Lord. And in one of the passages that speaks of Jesus being lifted up, there is added to the comment. And by these words, he showed the manner of his death.
It had to do with his death.
In john the 10th Chapter, Jesus makes this amazing kind of statement. And remember again,
Does God protect his word? Can people change the Word of God will.
Jesus said, I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep. He didn't say the Good Shepherd acts like he lays down his life for his sheep. The Good Shepherd goes through the motions, but doesn't really do it. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep and I am the good shepherd. Three times in about 10 verses, he says, I lay down my life.
And he adds, the reason my father loves me is that I lay down my life, so that I may take it up again.
You see, he does not lay his life now merely to lay it down. He does not die. Me
To die, he dies in order to be resurrected,
Jesus toxin, john 12 of the seed falling into the ground.
And as it falls into the ground and dies, it brings forth much fruit. If you put that in its context, again, he is talking about being lifted out.
And if we have difficulty with all of these rather ambiguous kinds of figurative statements, then we have a great abundance of other statements like
and he Jesus then began to teach them, the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and teachers of the law and that he must be killed. And after three days rise again, he spoke plainly about this. And Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
Now, this may well be why they were terrified and thought they saw a spirit, they had no anticipation
that Jesus would rise from the dead. They could not entertain the idea. And yet Jesus spoke to them very plainly and clearly about it on a number of occasions. In the next chapter of Mark,
Jesus said to them, the Son of Man is going to be betrayed in the hands of men, they will kill him. After three days, he will rise, but they did not understand what he meant, and they were afraid to ask him about it.
That's Mark nine,
Again, Jesus is with his disciples. And he says, The Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and teachers of the law, they will condemn him to death, and will hand him over to the Gentiles who will mock him, spit upon him, flog him and kill him three days later, he will rise. Now in case people want to quibble and say, Well,
Jesus speaks in these verses about the Son of Man.
And in case someone of you wants to say, Well, now the expression Son of Man merely means a human being, as in the book of Ezekiel.
Let me assure you that the expression Son of Man, like spiritual, has a variety of meanings, not just one, or even two, and fairness says that one, understand and grapple with the full range of variety of meanings. On one occasion, Jesus says, No one ascends into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, even the Son of Man,
the Son of Man, whoever he is, is not just a human being, the Son of Man is someone who descended from heaven. That's hardly a man having sex with a woman. And she conceives that a child is born. There's something divine going on there. And in john chapter nine, beginning in verse 35, to make it very plain. Jesus speaks to a man who was blind who to whom he had given sight again. And he said, Do you believe in the Son of Man and the man said to him, Who is he that I made believe in Him? And Jesus said, he, it is that speaks with you? And who was speaking with him, Jesus.
So let's not go chasing rabbits and somehow try to set aside the clear statements that Jesus makes where he says, The Son of Man will be killed by somehow saying, well, the Son of Man, we don't know who that is. In the Gospels, Jesus uses it as one of the titles for himself.
But more than that, in Matthew chapter 20, verse 28, Jesus says, that the Son of Man came not to be served, but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many.
You may want to say what you can give your life and diligent service, it doesn't necessarily mean give your life and death.
But you go a bit farther and find Jesus as He talks about the beginning of the Lord's Supper, the Eucharist, the communion, whatever you wish to call it.
He takes the company said this cup is my blood of the new covenant which is poured out for many for the remission of sins Jesus intended to give his life a ransom for
Many by pouring out his blood.
Mr. De doc talks about the garden
and the business of buying swords, and placing eight men at the gate of the garden to garden, I submit to you that's an assumption.
Where does it say he placed them there to guard it? The text does not say that
someone is reading into the text, an idea which they find somehow helpful. Trying to assert that no, Jesus had no intention of dying, he had an intention of fighting, of continuing on and of living. And so we're back Finally, then,
from the allegories and the figures of the Old Testament, from the figurative language of Jesus to the plain statements of Jesus that I will be delivered up, I will be crucified, I will be killed, I will rise from the dead on the third day, to the record of that event taking place in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john either That is true. Or it's not. I agree.
It's either crucifixion, or HF si si, t IO n.
But it's bad. If it is Si Si, T i, o n, then I would submit to you that somehow God has failed.
Mr. de dapped, undoubtedly will want to come back and say well
look at your scriptures. Look at the many different variations. Look at the many different manuscripts. Look at the many different additions, the many different translations. I hope none of you get caught up in that There are multitudes of translations of the Quran. I can bring the Quran in English, by Mohammed Marmaduke, Pickthall and the Quran by use of Ali in English and point you to certain passages that say different things.
But what does that prove that proves nothing. That proves that the person who translated the Arabic into the English or the persons who did that disagreed among themselves as to the proper English words, to convey the Arabic.
And so for someone to come along and say, Aha, here's a version here's a translation. Here's the Revised Standard. Here's the King James, and look at the differences.
Really, if that proves anything about the Bible, it proves the same thing I would submit to you about the Quran.
And so the word of the New Testament is that Jesus died that Jesus arose from the dead, and that he lives such as the message of the apostles found all through the New Testament, affirmed by each and every one of them,
rushing very quickly on such as the information that comes out of historical sources.
as a symbol, dates back in history, almost to the time of Jesus found among the earliest Christian communities, of which we had any record.
Baptism, a Christian act, an ordinance of sacrament, Christians call it different things,
but all agree that it somehow is associated with the death and the burial and the resurrection of Christ as ancient as Christianity, the Lord's Supper, the communion, the Eucharist, whatever one we chooses to call it, likewise, bearing the symbolism of the Christ who died in his body of flesh gave his blood and it was raised to life again,
the testimony of ancients or you can say yes, they did not live in the exact days of the disciples.
But you find a man like Justin Martyr in his defense of Christianity written about at 150.
urging the Emperor to check the details of the death of Christ recorded in a document called the acts of the Roman governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.
You find tacitus writing in his Roman annals, early in the first century, discussing the origins of Christianity and speaking of Christ, who was executed by the citizens of the procurator Pontius Pilate, in the reign of Tiberius
you find a man named phallus writing in about
52 ad quoted by a Christian named Julius africanus
talking about the crucifixion of Christ.
You find in a Syriac manuscript they did from 73 ad in the British Museum. The question raised what what did the Jews gain by executing their wise king?
You find rabbinic traditions in the Talmud tractate of the Sanhedrin, saying Jesus was hanged on Passover Eve.
What does all of this mean?
Well, one possible explanation is
that either these things happened.
Or these people were deceived.
Again, looking at some Muslim interpreters of the Quran,
they did not kill him. They did not crucify him, it only seemed that they did. So.
The interpretation of that particular passage
often carries the idea that in fact, the Romans and the Jews were deceived,
that they thought they crucified Jesus, but in fact they did not they crucified someone else.
Well, who deceived them?
Where they just ignorant, just foolish? Or was it something of a movement of God to protect his profit?
If it was God acting to protect his profit?
What kind of a god is left?
To foist such a hoax on so much of the world?
And where the disciples deceived.
And if they were deceived, by whom were they deceived? sheer ignorance.
Or by God,
who wasn't deceived. When it came to this matter of the crucifixion, and the death of Jesus? It seems like everybody was.
And if everybody was then once again, what happens to God who is concerned to reveal his message for humankind, in and through a prophet like Jesus?
Who that is defeated from the very outset, because the Romans and the Jews are deceived, and the Christians must have been also.
Either they were deceived, or they were dishonest.
They knew better. But they deliberately and willfully and maliciously
wrote that he died
when he hadn't.
Why send the NGO to Jesus,
only to almost immediately fail.
which must be what happened.
If the disciples likewise were deceived by the crucifixion, why the resurrection?
Oh, it's more than salvation through the blood of Christ. But is that
Mr. deedat, at the very outset, pointed to a difference between Christianity and Islam. In terms of the concepts of sin,
original sin, He referred to an idea that has a half a dozen different interpretations in Christian circles. Christians are not agreed about the meaning of all of the implications of original sin.
But Christians are agreed in their understanding that what the Bible is saying the holy book is saying is that human beings are sinful and that that sinfulness involves more than simply a mistake, that there is something fundamentally wrong with humankind as the consequence of the choice that people made in rebellion against God that brought a serious consequence with it. So that people are bent out of shape.
I think, scripture in human experience,
I mean, how many of you if you would be honest in the depths of your heart, in the quiet of your night, when you're alone
can actually actually deal with and overcome those tendencies within you towards self, so
hardness, toward pride toward last,
and on and on the list would go.
And I think in a moment of honesty, most all of us would admit, now, we are not able through our own energies nor through ritual
to overcome those things. Why? Because of the doctrines set forth in the holy book regarding the nature of sin. Why the crucifixion? Why he put it in this kind of context? the crucifixion, in some ways is a question of honor.
A Question of the honor of God.
Now, the Book of Leviticus in the Old Testament says, that if a man sleeps with his mother,
if a man sleeps with his mother, he brings dishonor on his father,
and he should be put to death.
If a man sleeps with his sister, he brings dishonor on his family, and he should be put to death. And on and on the provisions of the code of law go raising the question of honor, you know about honor.
You know, about honor, dishonor, cuts one off.
And so in the book of First Samuel in the Old Testament, we are told that Eli's sons have bought brought dishonor on their father, and they will be cut off.
And within one chapter, they are dead and gone.
We read of Baelish Azur a heathen King in the book of Daniel, and God says to him, because you have dishonored God, your days will be terminated, your kingdom is over.
You see, not only is it possible for us to dishonor our families, but it is possible for us to dishonor God.
And so God in several places in the Old Testament says, You have dishonored me.
You have brought shame on me.
And in the New Testament, Jesus quoting from the prophet Isaiah, speaking of the Jewish people of his day says, These people honor me with their lips only, but their heart is far from me.
You see, it is possible to honor God with one's lips, and yet at the same time, dishonor? God, how does one deal with dishonor? When it comes to pass?
May I suggest to you it's not through ritual.
You are Muslims. Think of your home countries.
Think of the views that many people in your societies have
slips out of the house and accompanied and meets a young man on the street corner.
And they talk or walk or hold hands or touch or have sex?
And so the girl comes home having been discovered and she says, father, brother, family,
And they say that's all right. Forget it.
You know better than that.
You know that you do not remove dishonor brought on the family of the serious nature by someone merely saying, Oh, I'm sorry. And someone else saying, forget it.
What about the honor of God?
When the honor of God has been offended when you and I have brought shame on the very God who made us what is to be done?
Do you mean that we stand and say God, I'm sorry?
Or that we perform some sort of external ritual?
Or that we even come with our heart and say with all of my heart, I'm sorry, and I perform this ritual.
God intervenes at that point. And here is the miracle of miracles.
Jesus said in john 15
Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
And I now call you, my friend, so and so God sins Jesus as the one who will step in between, who will deal with the issue of the dishonor that we have brought on God.
By making amends by dying for us, as many a man or woman has died, because they have dishonored their father, or their brother, or their sister, and the Koran talks about Abraham redeeming his son, through a noble sacrifice.
This is what God has done, he has redeemed us from the penalty dude, because we dishonor him by a noble sacrifice that sacrifice being Jesus, the one who steps between the one who becomes the protector, the one who is the mediator or the intercessor, the one who takes the blow if there is a blow to be taken. And indeed, in issues of honor, there is always a blow to be taken.
And so in john, chapter five,
Jesus says, moreover, the father judges no one but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all my honor the Son,
just as they honor the Father,
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. I submit to you tonight, that the crucifixion and the resurrection must be a reality.
Otherwise, you and I are left with no hope, for we have offended the honor of God. And it is not so lightly set aside.
What was all of this reasonable
that one would die for others?
reasonable, yes, above reason. Also, in some ways, yes. But it nonetheless is the act, and the movement of God,
a demonstration of God's love, that demonstration of God's mercy, a demonstration of God's justice, a forgiveness, grounded in the very nature of God, demonstrating the very nature of God, I would submit to you tonight.
That any sort of hope,
for eternal life,
based on each one of us being good enough, or performing the ritual well enough,
is a very, very shaky kind of hope.
God has set forth in the Bible. And I think also set forth in Islam
is a God of justice,
a God who have vengeance,
and also a God who is merciful and a God who is compassionate. Now, I suggest to you that it's very difficult to somehow harmonize those ideas.
How can you be just an avenging of Your Honor, and have the insult done to you, and at the same time, be merciful and compassionate?
By simply waving away the offense? That may be mercy and compassion, but where is justice?
Where is the avenging nature? That you discount it? Do you ignore it? Do you deny it? Does it cease to be?
On the other hand, to bring the judgment, to exercise the justice to avenge what happens? We all go to hell?
And so what do you do?
The response of the NGO who is Jesus
is that in Jesus, God set forth both His justice and his mercy and compassion. In dealing with our rebellion, the insult we have done to him the dishonor that we have brought upon His holy name,
by in effect, stepping in between taking our place becoming our protector, bearing the blow that is ours.
taking it upon himself as Jesus said, Greater love has no man than this, that he laid out his life for his friends. That is what Jesus did.
laid down his life for his friends, for all people who would look to Him, and thus would depend upon him in some degree
of trust in his act, not in their goodness.
Let me then make these last few comments as my time is going, five minutes, five minutes, okay.
Let me suggest to you some of the things not being said tonight, and some of you aren't going to like to hear this.
Now, have you gone to say no. To some of my Christian Brothers a moment ago, we're saying no.
I urge you.
I urge you to check your history to check your scholars to reach out and delve into the wide ranging diversity within Islam and come to some answers.
Let me suggest some things not being said tonight.
Is the Bible reliable?
No, it has variations in spelling.
Is the Bible reliable? No, there are differences in interpretation. Is the Bible reliable? No, there are differences in translation? Is the Bible reliable? No. Because sometimes you find the first verses of john eight, and the last verses of Mark 16. And sometimes you don't.
Is the Bible reliable? No, because some of the stories in it sound rather like stories that you might find in pagan sources?
Is the Bible reliable? No, because there are a number of scholars,
Dr. De doc can pull their quotations from his briefcase from the Encyclopedia biblica and others that would say the whole business of the crucifixion and the resurrection is a hoax. I would submit to you tonight, that he doesn't want to do that.
Because you see, those scholars
do not believe in God.
They do not believe in the supernatural.
And the criticisms that they level against the Bible, whether it be the crucifixion, the resurrection, or whatever else, they would level against the Quran, because they do not believe the Quran is from God.
So I would hate to quote a man who doesn't believe the Quran to somehow prove that you shouldn't believe the Bible. You can't have it both ways. Ask about the presuppositions of those who are cited in whom you quote, but back to what I was saying.
If someone wants to say, Well, there are problems with the text of the Bible, because there are variations in spelling.
There are variations in spelling in places in the Quran.
There's that prove it is not from God
for you and say No, that doesn't prove it's not from God.
But then if it doesn't prove that there, why does it prove it over here?
different interpretations? Are there different interpretations of the Quran?
Different versions? Well, they're different versions of the Quran, different translations, missing verses but the Quran has abrogation in it, does it not?
shaking your head no, I read Muslim scholars who say there may be 250 verses that have been abrogated. So you disagree with your own scholars.
Quran has materials from pagan sources, well, maybe Quran is not to be subjected to higher criticism, well, we can understand that.
The point simply is that if you are unwilling to entertain the possibility of considering these things with the Quran, you have no right to point to these things. As it regards as regards to the Bible, still five minutes, okay.
what is all this prove?
What It simply says this
reason and logic says
that these things don't prove anything one way or the other.
I mean, variations in the spelling within the Greek text of the Bible are
Does it prove nothing more than variations and spellings in the Quran?
differences in translations into English or Indonesian or French? Or does it prove Nothing? Nothing about the Quran nothing about the Bible, just the translators have a problem.
The question of whether all of the verses are there or not? Well, in the Quran, I mean, we have a problem. We have a problem in that whatever variants existed were collected and destroyed. And your traditions record that.
If only you will read your traditions. Now in the Bible, in the bottom of the text of the Greek New Testament, all the variants are set out and they are meaning.
But how can you determine what is authentic?
If you don't have these things to look at?
I mean, if there's nothing to check against,
and yet the traditions record that there were differences, were left somehow, in a quandary. What I'm arguing for here, I hope you understand, is not an attack on the Quran.
It's simply a case of saying, as we say, in English, what sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
If you want to raise these arguments against the Bible, then in integrity, you must be willing to investigate
the same arguments with regard to the Quran, because the same conditions exist there.
From a Christian perspective, from the perspective of the holy book,
the crucifixion of Jesus is not if I see t i o n, it is f a c. t. Jesus was crucified.
He was killed, he died, he was buried.
And three days later,
he was raised from the dead.
Either this is true,
on the basis of what
the Holy Book says.
Or as Dr. De dot has said, the whole thing
is a fiction.
And if it is a fiction,
then somehow the God who sent Jesus
is the most exalted of profits, and the one nearest him to bear his Injeel to the world has failed,
failed for many centuries.
Failed for at least 600 years, you may say not failed, ultimately, because maybe there it came back in the Quran and through Muhammad. But there's 600 years of failure, and I'm not quite sure what to make of a God who has 600 years of failure on his record.
And yet, somehow, that is a part of the issue that we are having to deal with.
I'll stop at that point.
For 10 minutes.
Mr. Chairman, and brother.
You know, Dr. Douglas,
has pulled so many red herrings before me.
I don't know which one to follow.
You see, he is brought up things absolutely irrelevant to the debate. the authenticity of the Scriptures, which was not in question tonight. I had a debate on that subject with brother Jimmy Swaggart, one or two hour session, debate and questions and answers. Now he's pulling that red herring before me, do I pursue that about the variation of the Quran? Shall I pursue that? Or about the different versions as compared to the translation of the Quran? Shall I pursue that? In other words, this 10 minutes, you know, all will be wasted if I start pursuing these red herrings that he has thrown pulling wool over our eyes. You see, he makes statements,
you know, contradictory statements. He says that Jesus was alive in the tomb.
For three days and three nights, he was alive.
At the same time now he said on the third day, he was resurrected.
He's a unique person. In my experience, I have come across hundreds of learned Christians. Nobody ever told me that Jesus was alive. He was dead. They say on the cross, and for three days and three nights he was dead in the tomb. mm the third day he was resurrected, but
His idea is know that he was alive. So he is, you know, running with the, with the with the, with the with the Harmon in a hunting
he has been trying to give us this spiritual spirit has so many meanings.
I agree. The spirit in the Bible does not mean the same thing every time. When you talk about the spirit, they say is the Holy Ghost, that I have the Spirit of God, they mean they have the Holy Ghost, then the Bible speaks about seven Spirits of God that went out into the world. No Christian said, there are 700, Holy Ghost.
See, we are told in the Gospel of St. JOHN, that he that is born of spirit, his spirit, and he that is born of the flesh is flesh. We know it doesn't mean what Jesus was talking about. These are different things on different levels, and they have different meanings. But at the same time, why does not bear the Douglas tell you that the word dead and died also have a dozen different meanings in the Bible? That dead doesn't mean dead in the sense of the man, his soul has departed from the body.
You see, sir, in the first book of the Bible, Genesis, God Almighty warns Adam, this is this fruit of this certain tree, Thou shall not eat for the day that the eatest thereof, thou shall surely die. And yet, Adam live for 930 years.
So the learner didn't have Christian then they have a nice way out, says no, this was spiritual death, spiritual, he had died. But physically, he lived for 930 years. And I agree with them.
Why not the same explanation be given in the case of Jesus. You speak about the prodigal son, in your preaching to your congregations prodigal son, the one who had asked for his talents from the Father, and he'd gone to a foreign land, met that company in the Maya in the gutter, and then he makes up his mind to return me returns. And the father representing God. He sees this prodigal returning, and he says that this my son was dead, and is now alive, he was lost is now found. Why don't you tell us that? Look, this dead doesn't mean dead. It was separation from the Father
explained to them that his separation is not dead. Because a child that son had never died, Adam had never died for 930 years. So it's separation, separation, separation, so that means separation. Also, why won't you Not now, translate or explain that this death of Jesus
was also a separation from God? Because you read in your own scriptures know he is bringing the Quran into the picture, because we are talking about your records, explain your records as they are in your own language.
You see, Jesus on the cross is supposed to have cried out with a loud voice. Li Li llama savani which means, My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?
What is this forsaken, Adam was forsaken by God, you call it
the son prodigal had departed from his father separated from the Father, it was that Jesus Christ, according to his own admission, is separated from God is dead. That is spiritual death.
But the death that you're talking about, he must die physically, he must give his life that his soul departs from his, from his body that is there. And if that took place, then you see for three days, he was a lie. And this miracle that Jesus is talking about the miracle
of Jonah, miracle is not being in infom, entombed, as you say, for three days and three nights was miraculous about that. You put a man in a cave in a tomb for three days and three nights. What's miraculous about that? If you put him in for three weeks, what is miraculous about that? The miracle is that you expect the man to die, and if it doesn't die, it's a miracle. And according to that the whole of Christian says that Jesus was dead for three days and three nights. Jonah was alive for three days and three nights, and as such, he didn't fulfill the prophecies.
crucified, says now What does the word crucified mean? crucified means to kill,
to kill by hanging or impaling on the cross. If a person is put onto a cross, for example, numerous cases, we have records here from our newspapers. Filipinos, says 13 Filipinos have themselves crucified. imitating imitating Christ 13 Filipinos, dozens of Filipinos every Easter they get crucified in in the Philippines, dozens. I'm sure you read these records. But what is actually taking place is that the person is taken to the cross is having his name
He's brought down and he's alive and he walks away smoking cigarette.
Now in your language, sir, there is not a word, there is not a verb in your language to describe that, that the man was put on the cross. What is that crucified? He says, crucified here, but the man is alive. So what happened? Was he crucified 20 years later somebody shoots him and he dies or you miss a motor car accident and he dies. How would you say was in crucified or hang or shot or drown? How? You have no word in your language, the deficiencies in your language to explain the situation that the if the man was put on the cross, and had he not died?
What would you call that? A man is taken to the gallows, muses poo pooed around his neck, and the rope is full. But before he expires, the cut the rope and is retrieved 10 years later, 15 years later, the man dies of natural death. Was he hanged? I want you to tell me not an hanged what happened to him in your language, you haven't got a word. In your language, you have no words to describe situations like that, you know a verb to tell you what happened. So you can see what hang you can see was crucified. But yet, the way they do right now is to put that in inverted commas. You see, in other words, that's what people say that he died,
that he died, he was crucified in inverted commas. I have now coined the word
to save Christian than the misery of not having a word. And that word is crucifixion.
cru ci, crew si si si ti and crucifixion. In other words, it's just an act taking place. The man is not actually dying. So he's not crucified in inverted commas. Rather, that the person was crucifixion fit depicted as like a fixture was evicted. So
I don't know what what issues now if I give you briefly, as a look, there are so many reasons that we say Christ was not crucified according to your scriptures. In the book of Acts, chapter one, verse three, it reads, and he gave after his alleged crucifixion, he gave many convincing proves that he was a lie, a lie, a lie. He gave conviction
proves that he was alive. Mary Magdalene she goes and testifies to the other disciples that he is alive and they believe not alive, li li li not resurrected. The word that is ally is again alive. Then the other is the two from Emmaus, when they returned to that upper room, when they had the Last Supper, they come and testify that they had met Jesus, and that he is alive in the belief not Thomas is told that Jesus is alive any belief not amazing situation. You read this in your own mother tongue, the word is alive, alive, alive, alive, not resurrect or resurrected, resurrected. So you invent the word, resurrect a new thumb socket, and tell the world that alive and resurrection one in
the same thing. It is not alive is alive, as if the Holy Ghost didn't know the word resurrected. If that was what had happened, then the Holy Ghost has inspired Luke and mark and Matthew and john that he is resurrected, resurrected, not once, not once, are they made to say resurrected, they're made to stay alive, alive, alive, alive and the man he's in disguise eternally in disguise, he never came out into the open. Why
is Allah if he has conquered death, there is no need to be afraid anymore. Because the scripture says, it is ordain unto all men wants to die. And after that the judgment you can die twice. But this man you can see the way he's behaving as he has escaped that by the skin of his teeth.
Pontius Pilate, he finds a man not guilty. His wife sees a dream in which he is told that no harm should come to this just man. He's only three hours on the cross. And no man can die on the cross in three hours according to your own church historians, people, right, right. People who write biographies of Jesus is William Hanna. In his life of Christ. He says that the victim of crucifixion invariably survived the first day, and sometimes he lived up the second and third day. And there are instances where people have lived up to the fourth and fifth day on the cross Li. Why should Jesus die within within three hours? The other two that were supposed to have been hanged with him. They
were alive in the they had to break the bones, the bones, the bones of Jesus, the legs of Jesus were not broken. Why not? Because the Bible says this is fulfillment of prophecy. It can only help a person if the bones are not broken, if it's alive. If the man is dead, and you break his bones, you just saw them to pieces you smash them up, what difference does it make? So when you look at the every each and every individual act, I can give you 30 different
Reasons from the scriptures to say that Jesus Christ was neither here nor crucified. You have this book here, crucifixion of crucifixion, this book is available absolutely free of charge. And you read it for yourself. But I don't know this rule that the brother, the doctor has pulled over our eyes. How many? What portion of that rule? Can I start removing in these 10 minutes? So now I hope at Christian time, we'll have better opportunity to justify the subject, whether Jesus Christ was crucified, or was that affliction.
Douglass, you say that the word of God cannot be changed. And I believe that God will preserve His Word. So how do you explain the many deletions and changes that have been made in the Bible? For example, verses from the book of lyric Leviticus, commanding the people not to eat slime flesh? deleted?
Quran can be proven
to be its original form, as it was revealed. What is the proof that the Bible is still whole and unchanged?
Well, as Dr. De dot has said, this is a subject for a whole evening's discussion
in terms of the proof that the Bible is still whole and unchanged.
The the evidence is, in the great multitude of manuscripts,
of varying ages, many of them quite ancient,
derived from a variety of different settings or countries.
Taking these putting them as it were, side by side looking, seeing, comparing.
Obviously, there are portions of the Bible where people have questions you refer to Leviticus, I'm surprised you didn't look at the first part of john eight, or the end of Mark 16. Where in various translations in English, you will find those footnoted saying that these materials are not found in some ancient manuscripts. It's a case of bringing all this together and looking at what is there and, and comparing one against the other in terms of, of age and origin. It's out of that kind of a very upfront very forthright sort of comparison from a human perspective.
And even if you take all of those things away,
in effect in terms of the teaching of the Bible, you've lost absolutely nothing.
The Old Testament obviously forbids the Jew to eat pork. And so I'm not quite sure what you're referring to there. I mean, the prohibition is there, whether the particular verse you have in mind out of Leviticus is something else or not. I'm simply saying it's a case of, of dealing with the things from a scholarly and a historical perspective.
Beyond that, there is the whole question of God, Does God preserve and protect his word, either he does, or he doesn't. Now preserve and protect his word can mean
in terms of meaning,
in terms of what God has said that he wants people to do, are down to counting every eye and every a and every he
which is a different thing, which has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches as such.
when Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, or any of the others, saw rays, where they spiritualized poor spoke of the resurrection at the end of time.
You see, the difference between resurrection and resuscitation?
is obvious. If Lazarus was resurrected.
In that case, would you still be walking this earth? You might have been here with us, because as the Scripture tells us that no man can die twice. So where is he now?
If he was resurrected, either his spiritual eyes and gone up to heaven, but that didn't appear to the Jew. So he walked among the people, and he lived among the people, and he went back home, and we add food. So it must have been a resuscitation, not a resurrection in the sense that only once you are resurrected, and after that, the judgment.
I hope that answers that question.
To Mr. Douglas,
why, or what is the difference of the Old and New Testament?
Shouldn't it just be one night the Quran
it is one like the Quran.
The Old Testament
the word of God,
given in part through Moses to the Jewish people, setting forth a multitude of ordinances and provisions for their lives, pointing on beyond to the coming of the Messiah.
But to to assume that the Old Testament and the New Testament somehow are at cross purposes, or that they are different. They're different in some of the in some of the legal provisions because of the nature of God's dealing with Israel of old, as opposed to God's dealing with all of humankind through Jesus. But they are one in that they are both from God, that they both record the acts of God and hence the revelation of God's own nature, leading to the greatest act of God's revelation, in the person of Jesus, and in his death, and in His resurrection.
May I simply say, it's off the subject. And I guess maybe we're not supposed to do this with these times. But you're right. Mr. De dot death has many things, many kinds of meaning. But the Gospels say they killed Jesus. That's very clear.
Their brother asked my dad, Please clear the misunderstanding for the Christians about Jesus has never been crucified nor killed on the cross. But the situation looked like Jesus was there.
The doctor made it appear, you know, as he was accusing me of reading into the Scripture.
Not saying that he's doing he had been doing the very same thing was, you see, he says from the Holy Quran, that the Quran says electabuzz
that they are following conjecture.
You see fiction, but it does not appear to them. So should be alone. Now should be hard doesn't mean that somebody was substituted.
The doctor says somebody was substituted the Quran says no, Quran doesn't say anything to that effect. I don't know whether doctor knows Arabic. I'm sure he does, the amount of time you spend in the Middle East. And if you can show from the Quran, that this word should be alone means substitution, it will be something interpretations of people is quite a thing apart. We are talking about books, when I'm referring from the Bible as it Look, your book says, Spirit has no flesh and bones. Do you understand that English is spirit has no flesh and bones. If I were to tell you that because I've got flesh and bones, I'm not a spirit. I'm not a ghost. I'm not a spook, as it is that
but what it means in your language you English man. Is that what it means in your language? And he says yes, if I were flesh and bones, then I am not the other thing. I asked the same question to the Zulu in his language as it is this what it means in your language and he agrees and every language group on Earth, when you say the spirit has no flesh and bones, it means what it says. Now you have to tell me that look in my language when a man says a spirit has no flesh and bones. It means a spirit has flesh and bones. Sometimes we English people, we speak in opposites. CMV mean the same thing. When we say when we say
We mean also slow up. You know one for us is to up slow up, man, you know you too fast. The other says Look, he's telling you, why don't you slow down? Why don't you slow down, slow down slow.
means the same thing. When we say in English Look out, we don't mean look out, we will look in.
So what you talking about? What are you talking about? So a French man was trying to learn English, sitting in a skyscraper building a tall building, sitting by the window and hear somebody shouting, look out. And he looks out and a brick on the head.
says, you know, what kind of language is this? He tells me to look out and I look out says no, when we say look out means you look in You don't look our
doctor, Dr. Sire, as is pleased, tell us tell these people that in my language in English, when we say a spirit has no flesh and bones, that it has flesh and bones.
we hear from time to time that the Bible is being changed by some of your scholars. Which results of having different versions? which version do you suggest to be the best? If you think that the Bible is not changed? Please refer this question to Mr. D, that
you're ready for this?
I want to be sure he's ready for this.
I will refer this to him because he obviously feels the Bible is changed. And so
will want to speak to this I think the Bible is is not changed.
The question is,
which version do you suggest to be the best? Well, now you recognize when you're talking about a version, you're talking about a translation
in English into German and French into Arabic.
And I suggest that the version is best,
that most accurately represents what the Greek text of the New Testament says.
Like, I would say to you, what version of the Quran is best?
Is it sales?
Is it pixels? Is it auto berries?
Do you know these translations Do you know these versions?
Some of you do, which one is the best? Well, you would probably say none of those, the one, the one that has the English and the Arabic parallel one with another. And I would be glad to submit to any of you if I could stay here two or three days that we get half a dozen, we'd pick any text you want. And we would see the difference in the translations into English.
And so which version of the Quran is best, the one that most faithfully reflects the Arabic If you cannot read Arabic.
Which version of the Bible is best? The one that most faithfully reflects the Greek of the Bible. And so in fact, I'd say to you this one's best here.
Why do I say this? Because this is a compilation of the best of all the ancient manuscripts. And if there are any questions about what the text says they're right down at the bottom, they're not burned up, hidden away, destroyed, denied, lost, or whatever else, they're right there for you to look at. And to ask, what difference do these differences make? And in terms of what this text says, those differences basically, make no difference. Now,
Mr. De darts for him, on one occasion said to me, oh, the Christians are changing the Bible. It used to say in john 316, God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. And today they've taken the word begotten out.
And he would point that it's there in the King James, it's not there in the Revised Standard. And that's right. It's the end of the King James, and it's not there in the Revised Standard. Has someone changed the Bible? No, the word was never there. In the Greek text, there's only one word in the Greek text monegan ace.
And so the Bible has been changed. No, the English translation has been sharpened,
no alteration of the words at all.
Let me correct Dr. Douglas.
The difference between version and translation? Is he, the, the Christian scholars and missionaries are trying to confuse the Muslims with a term that version and translation means one and the same thing. It doesn't.
You have that in Christian then the Roman Catholic version of the Bible, the Reims version.
That version has 73 books inside 73 books. The one
that the Protestant world upholds is the King James Version of the Bible. This version has 66 books, seven books less. Now you see, it's not just translation, it is not a choice of words. When the Muslim says, translation he means translation, Yusuf Ali, Baba, buddy, Muhammad Ali Modi.
Each and every one of these are translations that difference is in the choice of words, synonymous words, terms, different words are being used to translate a certain word according to the person's understanding or grasp of the language. That's a translation. But when seven books are thrown out of a book of God, those seven books according to Brother, Jimmy Swaggart, he said, he said they asked Julius to seven books. These scholars say that they are apocrypha, I'm asking what is apocrypha? apocrypha is the technical term for saying doubtful authority. In other words, not the word of God. So the Protestant say, no, then Dr. Douglas is a Protestant, he doesn't accept those seven books as
the Word of God. If you do, then you are a Roman Catholic.
Then he said the most accurate, we go to the Greek scriptures, and the most accurate rendering of the Scriptures is the R s v. That is what your scholars say. 32 scholars have the highest eminence in America, backed by 50 cooperating denominations, they produce the R s v. Revised Standard Version of the Bible. And they say beautiful thing about the King James version, which every Christian takes an oath by, including Jimmy Swaggart. This is the book he uses. This is the book he sells.
Now, they say the revises that this book, the King James version has grave defects. And that these defects are so many answers serious as to call for revision. So they revised it. So they threw out, leave the word because then you will go into the Greek scriptures, huh? I don't know Greek, but the Trinity, the Holy Trinity, the bedrock of Christian Christianity. Because what is the dispute we say God is one he said God is one. But they say that God is a triune, God, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. So we are at Williams.
We are at variance. Now that was in the 20s is the only place in this Bible. I don't know whether it is in his Bible, the Greek he didn't say which version he is holding. But the bulk of Christian Damn, this is the one they have in their hands. And the verses in first episode of john chapter five, verse seven, where it says, four there are three that bear accord in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one, and it is thrown out as a fabrication out of the RSV by your scholars, so that's a version is thrown out as a fabrication adulteration. Then the ascension of Jesus, the only places in the gospels where it occur is Mark chapter 16, verse 19, that
he ascended into heaven. Luke chapter 24, verse 51, that he ascended into heaven. They're also thrown out as fabrications. Now that is version, you see, this is not saying that the translations are translation things that are supposed to be not there, the three dot and honestly the demands that you do. So that is the difference between the version and the translation.
do you believe the old testament to be the whole of the Word of God? If your answer is yes. Do you say that Jesus was cursed because he was hanged to death?
I'm sorry, let me repeat the question because I thought I misunderstood it. Do you believe in the old testament to be the whole word of God? Yes, I believe the old testament to be the Word of God. I do not believe it to be the totality of the Word of God. But that is I see, the question is, is not what's being asked? If your answer is yes, which it is. Do you say that Jesus was cursed because he was hanged to death? Is the Old Testament said
the New Testament definitely says Jesus was crucified or was hanged. And from the perspective of the Jews, yes, he was cursed.
He became a curse for you and me, in effect, taking the curse of sin. And the punishment for sin upon himself
is not what the Christian comes along and says, a curse on Jesus.
It says that the Christian says, or I, as a Christian say, I'd better not speak for all Christians. I as a Christian say,
Jesus bore the curse of my sin.
The Jews treated Jesus as one, they viewed as a cursed or cursed, and they killed him.
Because they felt he was faults. He was not what they expected. But God in fact, had in mind, his death, and his resurrection, and out of that curse, a blessing.
If Christ showed the disciples that he hadn't died, that he did not die, why would they go for preaching he had died, and maintain the story of their own moderns? If Christ showed the disciples that he hadn't died, why would they go for preaching that he had died?
I do not read into the scripture that they started preaching his immediate disciples that Christ had died. What they were telling is that is a lie. That is a lie that is alive. And it was an anticlimax, to the idea that they had that the man was killed on the cross. That was their experience, because they were not eyewitnesses, or you witnesses that happening.
So now comes Jesus. And he demonstrates to them that he is the he's the very same Jesus that was before eating boiled fish and honeycomb, and going and traveling with them ever in hiding. So they said, No, the man is alive, we expected him to have died, he hadn't died. So that was the conviction that God saved him. And that is what they were preaching. This idea that he died for the sins of mankind. It doesn't seem to occur to me, because this is against the law of God Almighty, varices, the soul that sinneth it shall die. This is the law of God, that the one that sins, that is that is that soul shall die, and the son shall not be the iniquity of the Father, meaning whatever father
Adam did, and mother Eve did is is the son will not be the iniquity the sin of the Father, neither shall the Son, the father is the son with any growth, the father says, The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him. This is the law of God, that whatever good thing the good man does, he gets his reward, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Whatever evil thing the evil man does, he gets punished for it. But if the wicked will turn from all the sins that he has committed, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die. This is the law of God for all eternity. He does not take an innocent man to pay for the guilty. This is
against His justice. Doctor was talking about the justice of God, the mercy of God as our kind of mercy and justice is this, that he can punish the evil mongers, the sinners, so he takes his own son, and he gets him crucified. Law, you call that law, killing an innocent man, his own innocence, an amazing, amazing type of reasoning, logic, the God of the Bible, as well as the Quran, the Bible says, Jesus, in the book of Isaiah said, I forgive sins for my own sake. And I will not remember remember your sins. In other words, he forgives you. He's not asking you for blood of sheep or goat or lamb, nor of his son, but he says, I forgive sins for my own sake. And once I've forgiven, I
don't remember, it's all blotted out. This is the law of God in the Bible, and the teaching of Jesus with Jesus Christ. He says, He says, He is not of me who does not take his cross and follow me. Take up your cross and follow
lumen In other words, the way I carry my responsibility, you carry yours. Verily, verily I say unto you, Jesus says, except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the scribes and the Pharisees, you shall by no means enter the kingdom of heaven, there is no heaven for you. Jesus says to His disciples, unless you are better than the Jew, and I'm asking, how can you be better than the Jews? By not keeping the laws and the commandments?
Mr. Douglas, this one's for you.
Christians claim that Jesus peace be upon them is God. My question is, did Jesus claim himself as the God? Did he say, I am God? Or did he acts as follows to worship Me?
One quick word to what Dr. Lee that was saying a moment ago about the disciples going forth and preaching Jesus death, according to the record, in the holy book they did.
10 days after he ascended into heaven, the Holy Spirit came. And the first time they preached, they said, Men of Israel, Jesus of Nazareth, a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, so on and so forth. This man was handed over to you by God set purpose, you with the help of wicked men put him to death by nailing Him to the cross, but God raised Him from the dead, the very next time that they were up to speak, you handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate.
You killed the author of life, but God raised Him from the dead.
So very quickly, they were in fact preaching that they were right or they wrong, they were deceived, or, or something very strange had had gone off had gone on, that Jesus claim to be God. You mean in his very own words? If you're looking for the expression, I say that I am God, just those words, you do not find it.
But at the time of Jesus trial, when he stood before the Jewish authorities, they said to him, tell us, are you the son of the blessing one?
Who is the blessing one, marry,
or God? And Jesus said, I am. And they said, What further need do we have for proof he has classfied, let him die. blasphemy is taking to a human being that which uniquely belongs to God. And nobody knew that any better than the Jews, no people in those days, were any more sensitive to that. And so yes, Jesus claimed to be God three times in the Gospel of john, he makes the statement except you believe I am.
You will die in your sins. Before Abraham was born, I am.
They took up stones to stone him for the understood full well, what he was saying,
Why did they react that way to that language because of the Old Testament in which God says, My name is I am I am that I am.
And so yes, Jesus claimed to be God. Did he asked his followers to worship Him? If you mean did he say to his followers, followers fall down and worship Me? No, you do not find those words coming from the lips of Jesus in the Gospels. But you do find people falling down and worshiping Him.
And He accepted it. He did not say get up. He did not say you're mistaken. He did not say leave. He did not say that is inappropriate. He did not say you're wrong.
Did you base your arguments on small points of the Bible? The same Bible, which you believe is inaccurate.
To me, this is a contradiction. Why do you do this?
I do respect your religion. But this is a problem. I can't understand.
I'm an embroiderer. You see in every civilized nation on Earth,
people have disputes.
And when these disputes go to court,
the plaintiffs the complainant, he goes into the box
into the witness box. And he testifies, he puts forth his claim. And the opposing advocate, Attorney, he cross examines the witness,
when he's cross examining the witness on the evidence that he has given, and on that evidence, if you can prove to the judges satisfaction, that the man is lying, lying,
if you feel satisfied, that is convinced the judge in his cross examination that the witness was a liar.
What he does is he closes the case. And we asked for absolution with costs, and we will get it.
And this is normal practice in everyday affair dispute, you cross examine the person, and you come to a conclusion.
Now, the Holy Quran tells us to do the same.
This is what kalu and they say
to the Jews and the Christians. So Lamia, the whole agenda in lamancha, houden Massara that you Muslims will never never enter Jannah this new heaven for you. There is no salvation for you, except you become a Jew, or except you become a Christian.
In answer to that, God Almighty makes us to say Phil Armani whom that this is the wishful thinking, vain desires, hallucination all, tell them how to go Hanako produce your evidence in quantum Swati Kane, if you are speaking the truth, let's have a look at your certificate that entitles you to heaven, and this brings us to hell. So they have produced it the Bible in 2000 different languages. And you say my Bible says this, my Bible says that. So we have to cross examine the Bible, your witnesses, and we are proving from the mouth of your witnesses, that the thing that you are alleging what you're saying you are claiming is not they say, now he says what about the other things which
are true. That is not at stake, is the Bible says that God is one? He said, We agree with you. He says, I quoted you from the Bible. He said, Look, everyone is personally responsible for his or her action. I say we agree with you. Can you see if you say God is a loving father in heaven so bad? We agree with you. That when you say that he's like Shylock, wanting to get a pound of flesh for his creation, Adam and Eve sins and He makes you responsible. And at the beginning of 1986, there were 4.8 billion people on earth, and according to the Christian belief that everyone goes to hell, for what the sin that Adam and Eve committed, said, this is the most nonsensical idea, because Adam
didn't ask me before eating Apple, nor did he ask my wife, how can God hold us responsible?
Matthew 12, Chapter 14, verse says, For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be
in three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. I am a Christian, of the Church of Christ. I am confused, please explain to me how Jesus could be in the earth three days and three nights?
Well, first of all, let me say I'll be delighted to talk with you about this at a more in a more extended way than then our time now permits.
The thing that I think you must realize is the thing that I tried to say earlier, when I alluded to this passage, if one is going to take three days and three nights in the heart of the earth, and
insist upon absolute literalism, are
we talking about 72 hours? And what are we talking about three days and three nights? Are we talking about an approximation of time? As I mentioned, when I report to people that I see along the way, they'll say, Where have you been? I said, in Lawrence, Kansas, how long you were there? How long were you there I was there two days. Well, I have not been in Lawrence and will not be in Lawrence 48 hours. The writers of the New Testament were writing for a variety of different audiences, who counted time differently. And if you will look at the computation of time with reference to the death of Jesus in John's Gospel with in comparison to the computation of time with reference to the
death of Jesus in the synoptics, Matthew, Mark and Luke, you will find a difference
Difference simply in the way they described time.
For, as Mr. De Dodd has said, the Jews, the day begins at sundown, and moves on the Romans did not think that way. And so you find some writers dealing in Roman time, you find other writers dealing and more of what you would think of as Semitic, or Hebraic time. And the difference, there's a very understandable thing. It's a question of reporting, if any of you who are Americans have been in the military, and I said, Do you know what time is it? You would report it's 2200. And others of you would think, What in the world? Is he saying? Why it's 10? o'clock? The same time, different descriptions.
This would be Mr. de das. Last question.
in the book of Revelation, Jesus claims that I am the first and the last. And also he said, I'm Alpha and Omega, and the beginning and the end. If Christ was not God, how could he make such a claim?
The Book of Revelation scholars will tell you was a dream of john.
It was a dream, which he has put down on paper.
These are what people hear if at all, that if Jesus appeared to him to john, and told him, I am Alpha and Omega, if he did, which I do believe, there is talking about God Almighty, that God is saying, I am Alpha and Omega, I am the first and the last, not Jesus. But suppose you put these words into the mouth of Jesus according to your translations.
Even then, a dream. You know, people when they eat a bit too much, it happens, you dream dreams, things that you see. And you read this book of Revelation, describing to you certain beasts, with eyes outside and eyes inside, and you know, something which actually, you have eaten too much, you start thinking in those terms. So I said law while Jesus walked this earth, we have to now understand that while he walked this earth,
in none of the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or john is the expression ever used, I am God or worship me. On the contrary, he says, My father is greater than I, he says, My father is greater than all he says, I cannot ownself do nothing. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of Him that sent me. He says, of that day, no, with no man, no, not the angels, nor the Son, but the Father in heaven, in my knowledge, and not like God, in my power. I'm not like God, so all power is given to me. It is not mine. I by the finger of God cast out devils, I, by the Spirit of God do these things. Where does he say that he is doing the
works, that it is his power, he is doing it nowhere? And Peter testified in the quotation that
the doctor gave Peter in the book of Acts testifies, is the men of Israel, hear these words? Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you, amen. Not God approved. among you, a man he quoted it. But of course, the quotation went off such like water, and that's bad. You people hardly apprehended anything. It says, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and science, which God did by him. He didn't do it, which God did by him in the midst of you, which you also No, I said, Look, we agree with that. The Quran testifies to the effect that he gave to the dead by God's permission, he goes blind and the lepers by God's permission. We agree with that. But I said, Look,
now your interpretation you're reading, you are reading into your own scripture, something that is not there, and which is contrary to what Jesus claimed. He's teaching us is Come, I'll teach you how to pray is a pray like this. So over Father which art in heaven, our Father, yours and mine, including Judas, not the father of Jesus Christ in heaven, hallowed be thy name, singular, thy name, thy will be done by as as as it is on earth as it is in heaven. Where as you say, I'm God, where, as you say, worship me nowhere. Nowhere. It is something now, like I just heard
on TV. The program of brother Jimmy Swaggart is giving some lessons on TV. And at the end of that lesson on baby lawn, one of his panel members, he says, you know, I've been to Mongolia. I've just been to Mongolia. And there is I went to a Buddhist temple and there the suit
supervisor while he was with me, I'm asking him that this wheel prayer wheel on which you people are pinning in your prayers in written form and you turn the wheel. What for? He says no, this is now we are asking in this form, asking Buddha for help.
But he said, Look, I read so many books on Buddha. Nowhere does Buddha claim to be God.
Nowhere. This is one of our panel members of Jimmy Swaggart says, No one says that Jesus that Buddha is God is nowhere. He said, Yes, that is true. But we say he is born. We make him God. This is the same what he's talking laughing at the Buddhist. I said, my brother, you are in the same boat. You are doing the very same thing.
Brothers and sisters, I want you to acknowledge really these two fine champions, two wonderful gentlemen, for sharing their valuable time and energy is with us tonight.