Islam and Unitarian Christianity – A Dialogue – with Sir Anthony Buzzard

Adnan Rashid


Channel: Adnan Rashid

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The speakers discuss the importance of the Trinity and acceptance of Jesus as the king of the world. They stress the use of the holy name Jesus as a prophet and the church's use of Greek letters. The history and significance of faith in Islam and religion are also discussed, with a focus on Jesus' return to earth and potential return to the world.

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All right, good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to this special restoration fellowship

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event. So we'll have a Muslim Christian online dialogue conversation with Mr. Adnan Rashid and seranthony buzzard.

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So I'll do a brief introduction to both of them. And we thank them for their time.

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And then they will do a run a 10 minute briefing, Introduction app outline, they're outlining their respective beliefs from a Christian non Trinitarian point of view, which is seranthony buzzard, and the Muslim Islamic view that Mr. Rashid represents.

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So first, let me introduce seranthony buzzard, actually,

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since Mr. Rashid is, is our guest, but I wanted to

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I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I want them to need to hear Mr. Rashid first. After he introduces themselves so he can better maybe have a conversation. So we'll get Anthony's part of it out of the way. First, it was born and educated in England.

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He graduated from Oxford University with a degree in modern languages, French and German. He also gained a diploma in biblical Hebrew from the University of Jerusalem, a master's in theology from Bethany Theological Seminary. He's the founder of the restoration fellowship ministry, which we can you can see here, focus on the And if you're not familiar with our ministry, just click on beliefs.

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And then you should get this. So primarily, this ministry was founded with the idea that we are to restore the first century beliefs of Jesus, the apostles and the early church. And that obviously comes with the gospel defined as the kingdom of God on earth, as you can see here, and that point, and of course, that there's one God the Father, that's the Jewish Christian creed known as the Shema, and all the things regarding Jesus, his teachings, who he was and so on. So, obviously, his birth, death and resurrection are very important to the gospel message. Okay, so let's seranthony buzzard and Mr. Adnan Rashid is an international lecture

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from London as well as the England specializes in Muslim history Islamic new numismatics. I hope I said that right. He has a BA with honors from Birkbeck College, University of London completed his master's from the School of Oriental and African Studies. He has participated in debates and dialogues on the BBC network, Islam channel, and others. And if you just Google or YouTube, his name, you'll see a whole bunch of videos. I tried to watch some of them. There's a lot of them. He's currently working on a book on the history of Muslim civilization. So without further ado, let's start with Anthony's take. If you can unmute yourself, please, Anthony, and we'll go Okay. Can you

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hear me thank you for that introduction. Actually, we have some

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thing in common there that didn't get a notice. In your introduction University of London I did my New Testament Greek there, University of London, we had that in common. A lot of nuns were up there taking their Greek with me. And language is something I find easy. I'm very bad in other fields. Anyway, I'm not an expert on

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Islam at all. And so I hope to learn a lot more than I already know.

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My main concern has been with dealing with other denominations, we are regarded as heretics because we recite the Shema that Jesus resided. So, our approach is very simple. I want to say that we're tired of the philosophical convolutions that the church went through in order to arrive at what they call the Trinity. It makes no sense to me at all. I can be wrong on that. I'm waiting for Rashi to tell me but he's not actually going to disagree on that point. But I'm a Church of England boy, I was 20 years in the Church of England sent to boarding school when I was eight and 20 years my life in the Church of England, I can honestly say, and I'm not lying to you. I didn't know anything about

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the faith. We didn't do Bible. That was a regrettable American thing they did over there in a Bible. It was an American, we didn't do it. We never discussed the Bible. We believed in God in some vague way. We thought that God we had about as much moral authority, as CS Lewis said, as far the Christmas it's quite well put CS Lewis with whom I disagree profoundly, many ways. But he got that right. So I went up to Oxford then. And on the radio, I heard a certain Herbert Armstrong speaking about the kingdom of God, on radio, Luxembourg, that was about I was 20 years old also. And that really got my attention. My dad was director of Naval Intelligence, and he was trying to get the

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Arabs not to kill the Jews. So at home, what we heard was the point of life was we don't want Arabs and Jews to kill each other. We want peace on earth. That sounded good. So when Herman Armstrong said, The kingdom of God is the gospel, and they got my attention.

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We became Sabbath keepers. At that time I did.

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An awful lot I didn't know. I can say now following the notion that you hear on on one of the television stations, I know a thing or two, because I've seen a thing or two, I think in the field of Christian religion, I've seen a lot. That's why I'm very keen to mark to learn from Adnan

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about the detail of Islam. So going to Oxford, then I went to a get saved meeting, a colleague at Oxford took me to a gets a meet, I put up my hand to get saved. I've been thinking about that for 60 years. What does that really mean? And so I make a simple point, I do think that Jesus preached the gospel about the kingdom, that's where he begins. But the churches don't begin there. They begin with the death and resurrection of Jesus. That's obvious. I believe in that without the death of Jesus without the resurrection, he would have no faith at all. However, he didn't start with that he began by saying, you ought to repent this to change your life and believe in God's gospel about the

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kingdom. That's the only point I make, I'm sorry to sound so naive, but I don't know anything more than that. I've been reading for a long time. And noting that the Billy Graham system, if I may call it that, without disrespect to the man himself. They don't do that. It's a different sort of faith. You just accept Jesus, what does that actually mean? I'm a word, person, if I can do anything, with some skill, I listened carefully what people say, what does that mean? I don't know. But I do understand your pain to believe in the gospel of the kingdom. And the whole point, then of the Bible in the New Testament, especially is that Christians are in training to fix the world. Now that gets

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my attention, wouldn't you like to be part of the solution to the mess we see ourselves particularly this time in, and Jesus I believe is the Messiah and the Messiah is the one who's going to rule the world. You're not the Messiah if you're not going to do that. So we're messianic and our outlook, believing in the end time part we'll see we use the Greek pronunciation the modern Greek pronunciation are Greek, which is a pretty language. So the Potosi is the second coming of Jesus, at which point he's going to have the power we believe, to fix the world and you as a believer are being involved in a trial period. Now what sort of person are you? Are you fit to rule the world

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with Jesus? Have I done my 10 minutes Carlos or not? Oh, you're good. Okay. Keep

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the gospel and it's I think, fascinating thing, especially I think Rashid will find this interesting. It's just a fact that if you'll pick up these tracks on how to get saved as a Christian, you won't find the language of Jesus.

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I wake up with that anymore. I think is this really true? I'm checking it double checking and triple checking it. I'm going to check it again today probably. It's astonishing. So if

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The Islamic people want something to go after Christians with, I would suggest, not only the Trinity is a very good thing for them to tackle, but say why don't you Christians preach the gospel that Jesus breathed? Come on, this could create a marvelously interesting conversation. So that's my take so far. And I'm willing to learn of course and be corrected as we all must be. Alright, thank you, Anthony, and I'll bring up

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I hope I'm saying your name correct. Adnan Rashid,

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can you unmute yourself? Yep, you there? Okay. Yes, that's correct. That's correct. Before you start, let me remind people watching does a lot of watches. Let's see. So if you're on the live stream here, as you can see, so focus on the live stream. And we have a little chat at the right there. As you can see, again, if you have any questions, I already see a whole series of questions. Thank you for being here. If you have any questions, keep them short. And sweet, as we say. So time permitting, I'll be able to

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relate the questions to the speakers. Thank you, Rasheed. Go ahead, please. Okay, thank you very much in the Name of God, the Merciful the benefits in the God of Abraham, the God of Moses, the God of Jesus, and the God of Mohammed. I am truly honored to be here with sir Anthony buzzard. I have been a distant student, admirer. And you know, you can call it in current language a fan. I have been a fan.

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Sir Anthony buzzard, I have immensely benefited from his work, the doctrine of the Trinity.

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Christianity's self inflicted wound and I definitely agree 100% with him in the sentiment, the title is very apt. It is very adequate. Looking at the early history of the church.

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I have no doubt that early Christians were Unitarians up to the fourth century, I do not find any clear stipulation of the doctrine of the Trinity even in the writings of church father, church fathers, even Tertullian or Ignatius and others who are quoted in this regard. I believe they are quoted out of context, as Anthony can elaborate more on that I cannot dare teach him anything on that area. So I'm a Muslim. I believe in the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad, I believe. Unitarian Christians, and Muslims are very, very similar. When it comes to understanding the life and mission of Jesus Christ. There is no doubt that Jesus Christ was a mighty messenger of God. There is no

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doubt that he was the Messiah, the Promised Messiah to the to the Jewish people. We wholeheartedly as Muslims affirm belief in these ideas. Koran, our holy book has stipulations. Clever verses in this regard, whereby Jesus Christ is called the Messiah is called a prophet of God is called the Messenger of God is called the son of Mary. In fact, he is, amazingly Jesus Christ is the most mentioned person in the Quran, moreso than Mohammed and Moses, people, a lot of Muslims think that it is Moses who is mentioned by name,

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more than any other prophet but Jesus, when we look at all the references to him, if we look at references to him, for example, the son of Mary or the Messiah, or the Prophet, or the messenger, we put all these references together, he is the most referred to person in the Quran, as a prophet of God. So we, as Muslims really have to take him very, very seriously. We have to take his life very seriously. So Prophet Mohammed was born in the sixth century.

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He was given the Quran, he claimed that the Quran is the word of God. It is a revelation from the same God who revealed to Moses and Jesus, and it is a confirmation of their pill message of monotheism. And this is why I think the Christian church generally speaking the Catholics and the Protestants today, the majority, they went wrong on the idea of monotheism itself, which was the core, which was the core message of Moses and Jesus Christ to the people. And as you rightly stated that Jesus emphasized the Shema, in the Gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, when the Jewish man asks him, Master, what is the first commandment and Jesus responds, here, O Israel, the Lord our God

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is One Lord. Okay? And this is clearly attested.

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In the Quran in chapter five, we are told that Jesus told His people in

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Arabic language I will quote the Arabic and then translate into the English language. The Quran states out do we live in a shutdown regime or parallel merci Ahuja, Bani Israel or about a la hora be what a Baku, in whom I usually could be la vaca harem Allahu la Jana ma na Ramallah Dolly minimun and saw the Messiah said, all the children of Israel worship.

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Worship one God who is your Lord and my Lord. Anyone who has scribes partners with him

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will not be in Paradise and he will not find any helpers, any of the ones and anyone who oppresses who is an oppressor, who is in a precedent this was the oppressor is the one who ascribes

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false partners with God Almighty, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. So Jesus in that sense, according to the Koran, and very explicit and Claire verses of the New Testament was a strict monotheist. He upheld the very strict monotheistic message of Moses, Abraham, and Noah, are going back to Adam all the way we believe all of these prophets of God, they came with one message alone and they wanted to turn humanity towards the Creator of the heavens and the earth and worship Him alone. And, unfortunately, for some reason, due to Hellenic influences, in the second and third century, some Greek philosophers who happen to be Christians who believed in Jesus Christ, they

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started to interpret the New Testament, which was essentially a Jewish

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enterprise. I believe it was a Jewish enterprise. Jesus was an Israelite, Israelite, and and the authors of the gospels were Israelites. This was an Israelite enterprise. And when a Hellenic lens was used to interpret an Israelite tradition, unfortunately, some of the early church fathers, they they added Jesus Christ, into Godhead. Some in a minor way, in a in a in a subordination is the way others completely they equated Jesus Christ with God the Father. And this is where everything went wrong, and we can talk about it in our time, and we have the dialogue. So Islam,

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in a nutshell, is belief in one God, and affirming belief in all the prophets of God who came before Jesus and before Muhammad, and affirming belief in the once upon a time original revelations. This point, I would like to clarify very quickly, our view on the Bible, how do we see the Bible as Muslims. Our view is very consistent with history and textual

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studies of the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, the Koran clearly states that the scriptures of the Jews and the Christians have been altered, they are not in the pure form. Therefore there was a necessity for a pure revelation to guide humanity, which is what the Quran claims to be. And the Quran stands as a guardian of our previous scriptures, it confirms what is true, and it rejects what is not true. For example, ideas like the Trinity are

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rejected, in very, very clear language in the Quran. In chapter four, for example of the Quran, verse 171, the idea of Trinity is rejected directly in the revelation as we the Muslims believe. So the Quran is that Guardian over previous scriptures, it is, I mean, when we look at some of the textual histories and textual studies of the the Old Testament as well as the New Testament, we do see a lot of alterations, a lot of interpolations, a lot of

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things added in the names of the anonymous authors, let alone You Jesus Christ. So it is very difficult for us to ascribe information to Jesus Christ what we can do. I mean, we looking at historical Jesus, we have to study him in his Jewish millio. And anything that doesn't fit into his Jewish millio, or Israelite millio. That cannot be accepted, and as an idea coming from Jesus Christ. So we see a lot of stoic ideas. In the Gospel of john, for example, we see some some Greek philosophical ideas. As one of the scholars of one of the scholars of the New Testament he pointed out that these gospel authors

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had written in the Greek language and they were rhetorically trained in the Greek language, the language was very strong, and the disciples of Jesus Christ were simple peasants from Judea. They were not necessarily scholars in the Greek language, or they didn't know Greek rhetoric, or they were not necessarily aware of the Greek philosophy. So clearly, these documents were not written by eyewitnesses, they were written by believers later on.

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They had their own idea about Jesus Christ. And these ideas are put down in the documents as biographies, as it is clearly indicated in the in the early histories of the church, that the New Testament documents were simply referred to as the memoirs of the apostles. Rather than the Scripture, they were given the starters.

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quite late, I would say, possibly in the early second or late, very late second, early third century when

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the New Testament started to take its current form.

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The four gospels were mentioned for the first time by Irenaeus, in the late second century, and previous to that Christians in different places at different times are reading different documents.

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For example, Christians in Antioch are reading.

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If I'm not mistaken, the Gospel of Luke and Gospel of Mark was very popular in Rome. john was the documentary read in Egypt. And it was quite late in the second century, when these documents are read as, as a uniform or as a block of text on the life of Jesus Christ. So this is like a summary of what we believe as Muslims, and it is very much supported by the Quran. So we have a very nuanced view on

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the New Testament, we don't reject it in totality. At the same time, we do not accept it in totality, we do believe there are remnants of revelations. In the Old Testament as well as the New Testament there are clear teachings of prophets that can easily qualify to be original once upon a time revelations from God Almighty that were later on altered. For example, Jesus spoke Aramaic, or possibly a dialect of Aramaic, and what we currently find in the New Testament attributed to within Greek, so clearly, his language and his original expressions have been lost. So despite that, we believe that our true teachings of Jesus Christ, in the Gospel we carry today, for example, one of

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the examples I gave earlier,

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the gospel of Mark chapter 12, verse 29, I have no doubt that Jesus made that statement. For example, the gospel of john chapter 17, verse three,

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where Jesus said, Father is the only true God. Right? I wouldn't have a problem with that statement. Well, I I don't have any reasons to reject the, the possibility that Jesus might have said that.

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In the Gospel of john, for example, Chapter 20, if I'm not mistaken, verse 28, when Jesus ascends to the heavens, he tells Mary Magdalene that I ascend onto my Father, into your father, to my God and to your God. So all of these references in the New Testament, I have no doubt that they have some origin in the teachings of Jesus Christ, and these are revelation. So the Quran is very consistent with that the Quran teaches us to believe in such passages, through the Quran, of course through the Quranic lens, we have to look at the New Testament, through the lens of the Quran, as we the Muslims believe that this is a pure revelation from God, God Almighty, which can be traced back to Prophet

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Muhammad without any alterations. So there is no doubt that it is pure. And we use this lens to study the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. and due to that, because of that, we have maximum sympathy with the Unitarian thought within the Christian church or within the Christian civilization. I have been a great admirer of Unitarian thought, and I am a huge

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admirer of the struggle of the Unitarian Church throughout the last 2000 years. I believe the Unitarian Church has been alive. And I believe within the house of Christianity of Christendom today, if we look at Christendom today, I believe the Unitarians are the closest people to the teachings of Jesus Christ. This is what we, as Muslims believe, I mean, I'm pretty sure I'm confident that I can represent Muslims in saying this, that the Unitarian Church people like for example, you know,

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I mean, I don't want to bring areas into the discussion because areas has been very controversial. Unfortunately, what we know about areas

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is known through

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his opponents, whatever we know about areas is unfortunately has reached us through his his opponents, and I don't want to go into that too much. But people like areas, Paulo center, SATA, even origin and you know, Eusebius,

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and people later on who had Unitarian ideas, Miguel servito, for example, Isaac Newton, Joseph Priestley Western, William Western, and john Locke.

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I believe all of these great individuals and thinkers and philosophers had made their contribution in their own ways. And they were very close to the actual monotheistic message of Jesus Christ. And I'll stop there. I think I've gone over my time. All right.

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Thank you. Thank you. You are educating us in a lot of ways. Anthony, can you unmute yourself? Sorry, I have to meet you.

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if you could go ahead and response, a response to get to what is her? Yes, well, you're giving us a lot of unit theory in history, which is backing entirely what we believe I mean, we live out of the Shema. Sure, Mize the Hebrew as you said, I'll give it in Hebrew Shema Yisrael. Adonai, eloheinu, Adonai had a heart is the cardinal number one. Absolutely. And there really should be no doubt about that at all. I'm actually alarmed by the degree of groupthink, which has Smith and good church people. I mean, they are good people that give the shirt off their back to help you. They are good people. But they are not asking any questions. They're not reading a history. So it's delightful to

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hear you well informed in history. And you're absolutely right. There are no trinitarians in the second century, none. Well, what happened to the Trinity if it's supposed to be in the Bible, and later in the church? What happened to it for 100 years? That's just absurd to me. Justin Martyr, was a big church author, of course, he's not a Trinitarian is an arien. Actually, people should know that. But they don't know. See, we didn't study this. What were we doing in school, we studied everything imaginable. Not much in American history, but not much about that. But we knew nothing about the origin of church, we love the hymns. We love the buildings that have been there 600 years.

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But we have no intellectual approach in the best sense to any of this. So thank you for what you stated there. I agree with everything you said. Of course, there will be some disagreements and it's good. I think a dialogue that we face those it's no good, particularly if there are disagreements. One major one would be of course, the issue of the resurrection. We think that Jesus died and came alive. Without that there's no faith, you're going to differ with that. All right, let's at least get clear where it says we differ. And let's rejoice in the things that we agree on. Shema Israel, Earhart is one. I'm appalled, actually, second by some of my Trinitarian friends who tried to say

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that one is compound one, is it meaning as language to me what the word is compound, when you go to $1 store and you buy an item for $1. You take it to the cashiers register to pay for it and they say, Oh, this is compound 113 dollars.

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So my major point and we learning all the time, as I as you're doing reading a lot thinking about all this is that we're abusing the precious gift of language. And religion is the field we don't want to do that. So one being compound one would mean that one means three if you say 1301 must mean five. If you say one quintet, I say that's absurdly dif different and difficult and actually insane. It's not even good physically for your brain to harbor nonsense like that was your two year old knows what the word one means? So I'm with you see very much against what the Christian Church in his various denominations has done. The Unitarians have done quite well. But they themselves fell

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apart when they became Unitarian Universalists. Not much better than New Age stuff. So they lost a grip. The lesson I think we can all learn here Rashid, is that human beings left alone without some serious guidance, are just going to fall apart. They're not going to get it right, probably. So it's our opportunity, then it's not for anything that we are in ourselves. But this whatever it's born in one's instinct as it is in yours. And in mine. I'm trying to figure this out. Yes, I just find that intensely interesting. What is more interesting than immortality for us? I think Jesus came offering the way to living forever and ever and ever and ever, not quite in the Church of England way that

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I'm an immortal soul that I'd fly off to heaven when I die. I think that's false, by the way, as false for us, as is the Trinity. So you see, we have areas where we're in common. Good Jesus as Messiah. You said it beautifully. You preached a marvelous Christian sermon there in many respects. Thank you for doing that. Wait, we actually as Muslims, we have to believe that we are Christians, in the sense that we believe in Jesus as the Christ. Yes, the Christ. What does the Christ mean? It means it comes from the Greek word Christos, which is the Messiah, which is a loose translation of the word Messiah. mushiya in the Hebrew

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language. And we are Christians in that sense. I mean, we can be regarded as heretics as we have been. And I'm pretty sure you have been absolutely longtime by the Trinitarian. majority. But, but we as Muslims, you see, we believe that Islam, which actually means submission, to the will of God, or the true religion of all prophets. So Islam is not an alien thought. It's not an alien idea. Rather, it is an ancient idea, which is found within the biblical text. And it is, it is this idea that was followed by all prophets because, for example, Jesus Himself states in the New Testament, and I have no problem in accepting that particular statement, possibly coming from Jesus Christ that

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I can have, I can have my own self do nothing, I do the will of the Father. Okay, so the will of the Father submission to the will of the Father is Islam. This is exactly what we believe in, we don't call God the Father, because of the confusion that was caused within the Christian history, using terms like son and father, and some ended up this very non Israelite understanding or interpretation of the concept of the Son of God because the Israelites understood the concept, the Son of God differently to as later Greek,

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you know, Greek inspired or Hellenic thinkers. So this is why this confusion was completely put aside by Islam and don't use words like father for God, Almighty, God, the Creator, okay, of course, we understand how the term father was used in the Old Testament and the New Testament, it was used in the sense that he is the creating Father, He is the Creator, he is the Sustainer, like a father figure would. So the reference is not biological. It is more spiritual and metaphorical. But later on, because the hill Enix made something else out of it. This is why the Islam, the Islamic

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schools of thought in Islam, yeah, they followed a different

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approach to all of this, and God has never called the father in the Quran, rather, he is called Allah, which I believe is the same root word used by Jesus Christ in the New Testament, allegedly, we don't believe he was put on the cross. That's another idea where we can disagree.

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You know, with the Unitarian Church, that Jesus was crucified, we don't believe Jesus was crucified. We believe he was rescued, he was saved. And this is well grounded

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in the history, and in the prophecies as well, we believe there is a lot of confusion on the issue of crucifixion, even in the New Testament narratives on the matter of crucifixion, of putting that aside, even if we look at the book of Psalm, Chapter 91. It is a messianic prophecy. And we and the prophecy is about Jesus Christ as Matthew, the Gospel of Matthew chapter four clarifies that the devil uses this

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prophecy against Jesus Christ, trying to encourage him to jump off the cliff and he tells him that you will not be hurt. A stone will not prick your foot, is it? It just said you and Jesus confirming the prophecy states, it has also said do not tend to God. Right. So that actually refers to Psalm 91. And when we read the entire Psalm, we come to realize that here someone who is a messianic figure is being promised protection and rescue from God Almighty Who will be lifted up by angels, and he will not be hurt. So we believe but the Quran claims that Jesus was not crucified, he was not killed rather he was raised above by God Almighty in one piece without being touched or hurt. Yeah,

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we see. Perhaps we are reading the Quran into the book of Psalms. Okay. Maybe perhaps we are reading we're using the Quranic lens. And if you were to say that I would accept that wholeheartedly, but we see Psalm 91 as a fulfillment, or the fact that Jesus was protected and saved is a fulfillment of Psalm 91. And the Quran confirms that. So we are Christians in that sense, we are we are, we differ, we differ on on possibly some major issues. But but the fact that we can agree on one of the most important aspects of faith, which is strict, true monotheism, yes. It's very, very important. I think one would ask you immediately, what do you do is you quoted the Psalms there, which is which

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is wonderful. You do Psalm two yawei your whole vouge It doesn't matter to us at all how you pronounce it, by the way, but you know, one, gentlemen, Neff and FM Yeah, Gordon has recently come up with

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Multiple manuscripts which actually have pointing your whole that doesn't matter. But you have there in Psalm two, a messianic Psalm is right at the very head of the Psalms is very, very important. And Yahweh there says, I have forgotten the Messiah. Now, if that doesn't make him father, so let's face the radical differences between Islam and Christianity, they simply cannot be reconciled. You cannot say God isn't father. In the Old Testament, he obviously is a father, and in the New Testament, to say he's not crucified, is to wipe out the cartridge and make Luke and mark and Matthew, very much irresponsible. But that is the clear difference that people will be aware of. And that's the point

00:35:41--> 00:36:07

of this sort of dialogue, I think, yes, there it is, I'd forgotten you to begin to know you're now or in Greek, I'm using the modern Greek pronunciation means I've brought you into existence. It's a very strong proof against the Trinity. And so and you know, this, I'm sure, and I want the audience to hear it. The Church Fathers whom you rightly say, were terribly hidden, electrically and philosophically influence. They say that Jesus had

00:36:08--> 00:36:26

a beginningless beginning. I want the audience to hear that. I don't think God is very pleased with you, or smiling at you, when you're talking nonsense. You're throwing away the gift of communication. Don't say Jesus had a beginnings beginning? What are your children going to make of that? It may actually be affecting you physically,

00:36:27--> 00:36:29

to speak nonsense and say that

00:36:31--> 00:37:12

it's just wrong. So these are not boring doctrinal things to me. This is life. Jesus Himself said and john 663, the words that I speak to you the words, the words I speak to you are spirit, and they use nouns, you know, in the New Testament jumps they carry in an attic table since our first spirit, full of life, the words, the words, the words. So what the devil has done and I believe the Quran believes there is a devil we certainly do. There is a devil, who cleverly says, No, no, all the contents that Jesus died for you knows, his teachings don't matter. That is antichrist for us. You cannot get more anti christ and to say that the teachings, and here we're going to be at one minute

00:37:12--> 00:37:44

respect, the teachings of Jesus are everything. So that's where our emphasis has to lie. And I and I agree 100% that the teachings of Jesus Christ are paramount. Yes, Muslims, I'm pretty sure as well as for the Christians. But yes, one problem we as Muslims, with the problem we face is, how do we ascertain as to what was really said, by Jesus Christ, I see we Yeah, you see, we have been given the Quran. Yep. And we are not just blind followers. And

00:37:45--> 00:37:47

we, we just don't want to believe

00:37:48--> 00:38:04

someone who came from Arabia. And because he preached a message in the Arabic language, and because it came to us from our ancestors, my my grandfather among Greg, my, my great grandfather was a Muslim, so therefore, I have to be Muslim. No, in my case, I have studied

00:38:06--> 00:38:53

Prophet Muhammad's life, and the life of Jesus very, very carefully. And I have looked at correlations, and these correlations are not accidental. It is clear to me that these two prophets of God were definitely brothers in spirit, they were brothers in faith, because what they were teaching far apart from each other centuries apart, geographically, you can say, you know, easily hundreds of miles away from each other. Right. And they were born in different circumstances to different people, and in different economic conditions, different political conditions, and amazingly, how they were able to come up with these ideas that correlate with each other so

00:38:53--> 00:39:17

beautifully, and so accurately is this is just beyond me. And one of the reasons I believe that Prophet Mohammed could not have taken these ideas from Christian scriptures, is because the Christian scriptures were not even available in in his language. There is no evidence that he knew Greek, Aramaic, or Syriac. I saw it, he never went to a school he is known as an unlettered man.

00:39:18--> 00:39:40

If he didn't know how to read and write, there are clear historical references to that. And Islamic history has been transmitted very, very powerfully from multiple, multiple attested sources. The Hades literature I don't know how much you know about it. A lot of people raise controversies about the Hades literature, which was primarily initially an oral

00:39:42--> 00:39:46

tradition and then later on it was put down just like the Gospels basically, right.

00:39:48--> 00:40:00

But, you see with with the Hades tradition, we know where the information is coming from. We know the people who transmitted this information we know the names of the disciples, who transmitted this knowledge to the

00:40:00--> 00:40:15

their disciples, their followers and students. And then it continued. I'll give you one example. I'll give you very one quick example because it's a dialogue so we can perhaps get to know a bit more about each other's understandings of our respective fates.

00:40:17--> 00:41:02

There is a source called Buhari and it is one of the main sources we refer to for prophetic tradition. If we want to know anything about the prophets, life, Prophet Muhammad life, then we go to Bukhari and Bukhari. He attributes information to Prophet Muhammad. And there is a distance of about 200 years between Bukhari and the Prophet. So a lot of people raised this question, how can you believe someone who wrote 200 years later about a person who lived so far apart chronologically speaking from Buhari, so we we give them our reasons that Buhari when he says that the Prophet said such and such, or so and so, he actually attributes this information to his teacher, for example, to

00:41:02--> 00:41:45

give you one example, there were three people between Bukhari and the Prophet Muhammad his teacher was McKee, Abrahim, there was a man called Makino of Abraham, who had taken information from his teacher called jazzy ww Wait, and you see that taken information from one of the disciples or Prophet Muhammad Salah Tahlequah, so there is a direct chain, going back to the Prophet uninterrupted, well known figures who had thought publicly. So Buhari does not speak on his own authority, rather, he shifts his authority above him. And all of this authority goes back to the Prophet Muhammad, uninterrupted with the solid chain of narration. So this is how we know that what

00:41:45--> 00:41:49

the Prophet taught us about Jesus about Moses

00:41:50--> 00:42:10

was not his own thinking. It was impossible for a man in the seventh century Arabian Desert, to so accurately describe some of the teachings of Jesus Christ, and Moses and Abraham. And when we go back to the ancient scripture, then historical records, we see all of these teachings confirmed.

00:42:11--> 00:42:39

So, in that light, we look at the tradition of Jesus Christ, and we accept it wholeheartedly. We believe that Jesus Christ, everything you taught, which fits into the Israelite millio what the Israelites had believed for centuries, is acceptable to us. Okay? When it starts to go into ideas, for example, some of those ideas coming from Paul and the gospel of john, in particular.

00:42:41--> 00:43:09

As you know, scholars have studied the transformation of Christology from the Synoptic tradition into the high Christology of john, this is where we start to become a bit skeptical. You see, with the Synoptic tradition, apart from crucifixion, apart from Jesus being crucified, we don't have many problems there as a virgin birth to the virgin birth. Absolutely. We believe in virgin birth. Oh, Lord, absolutely. The Koran has Luke wrote about it and

00:43:10--> 00:43:56

not not exactly the same story, not exact because the Koran has very interesting narrative on the virgin birth on states that Mary was impregnated Of course, by a miracle of God, okay, it was a it was a record. There is no mention of Joseph, for example, in the Quran, there is no mention of the husband of Mary now in the Quran. The Quran simply tells us that Mary was a virgin. Yeah, she she, she was pregnant. Yeah, a miracle. She came to her people with the baby. And the people said, Mary, we knew you as one of the daughters of Eric sorry, one of the Sisters of Aaron. And this was a reference of honor and dignity. For example, Hannah, in the New Testament is called one of the

00:43:56--> 00:44:08

daughters of David. She was not a physical biological daughter of David rather, this was a reference of honor and dignity. If I'm not mistaken, there's a reference for Hannah the mother of Samuel you're talking about

00:44:11--> 00:44:14

Samuel? No, no, no, I'm talking about the New Testament

00:44:16--> 00:44:20

where there's a reference to either Hannah I if I'm if I'm

00:44:21--> 00:45:00

is it Hannah or someone else where she is called? It's in the Gospel of Luke, if I'm not mistaken, is referenced that one of the ladies he's called the one of the daughters of David. Okay. We can look into it. Okay. You said it wasn't much for us. Of course, Mary has to be a David died. She has to be descended from David. Because the male part of the arrangement being God for us. Yes. And of course, let's make this quite clear. Christianity in the Bible does not teach that God had sex with Mary. I'm putting that bluntly, nothing whatsoever. That is a scarlet side. You should never be unscented so it's a ship biological miracle.

00:45:00--> 00:45:33

effected by God, we don't need to ask how that happened. It's a miracle for us. But I'm actually heartened to hear you say, Luke, after all, we don't want to talk about third hand here. I don't dispute you in a book. But how do you hear in your third hand, but Luke was right there, Mark, and Matthew, were contemporaries, Lucas historian wrote more of the New Testament actually than Paul, if you exclude Hebrews. He's a massive witness. He's obviously very sophisticated. Greek is the language of the New Testament Scriptures. So may I make this one point, if you don't have scripture? You've got nothing to talk about.

00:45:34--> 00:46:16

I think that goes for both of us. If you cannot have say, if you cannot say this book, is the inspired truth in causes of Scripture, by the way, it's either lying or not. But Paul is referred to Scripture. As you know, in the New Testament, they think they're writing scripture, Luke certainly believed in inspiration, every bit as much as the crap. So that's the clash of ideas. You sound a little doubtful, and you would have to be doubtful about how reliable the teaching of Jesus is it you see, and we don't ask that question. We simply say, to the core Jewish to the core, but it's it's has to be accurate, otherwise, we have nothing to talk about. Yes, I understand that. And we

00:46:16--> 00:46:27

don't as I said, we don't reject the gospel tradition entirely in totality. No, we don't we we treat it with absolute respect, upmost respect, we believe there is.

00:46:28--> 00:47:07

There is truth there. There are remnants of original revelations. Yes, we are not quite qualified, though, isn't it? Sorry to interrupt you there. But that's a considerable qualification, because the whole thing is based on Jesus dying by crucifixion. If you take away that history, you're really you're not intending this, but you're implying that Luke was terribly muddled, terribly confused. So the difference is clear here, we haven't got the same authoritative scripture. For us. It's quite clear that Jesus died. And then they develop, of course, an idea of substitutional atonement as well. But the fact that Jesus didn't die that somebody else died in his place is fiction, by our

00:47:07--> 00:47:23

standard here. Yes, truth baler. So that is a clear and not we as Muslims. We have one of the interpretations of the passage, chapter four, verse 157, and 58 was Yes, verses that describe the crucifixion issue.

00:47:25--> 00:48:11

The worst simply state will lock into Babylon, it appeared to them so it doesn't say that someone else was actually put on the cross instead of Jesus Christ. This was one of the interpretations used by commentators later on on the Quran. This information came from a Judeo Christian sources to them, a lot of the Muslim commentators to make sense of some of the Quranic passages on, let's say, Jesus, and Moses and other biblical ideas, they used Judeo Christian information with a huge pinch of salt, of course, to explain away some of these matters. So what does it mean, for example, that it appeared to them? So what does it mean? Right? People asked this question. And then the commentators

00:48:11--> 00:48:32

of the Quran later on, they explained that it could mean x, y, and Zed, it could mean that someone else was put on the cross, it could mean that they thought it happened, but it never never really happened. So there, there are a number of options. And you're absolutely right, that one of the most accepted opinions. One of the one of the firmly grounded opinions within

00:48:34--> 00:49:10

the house of Islam, is that someone else was put on the cross instead of Jesus Christ. Yes. Well, let's be quite clear on this and and for the sake of honesty, and you're not in disagreement here. The New Testament without the crucifixion of Jesus is nullified. All the Unitarian stuff regrows fine, I love it. But if you say that Jesus didn't die, that's not compatible with the Quran. Clearly, and I want to face the facts here, doesn't mean we hate each other. We're going to kill each other over the heaven forbid, let's have honest dialogue, but let's not let's not weaken the obvious differences.

00:49:14--> 00:49:55

Yeah, I respect that wholeheartedly. I am aware of your view on the CRISPR. How important crucifixion is for Christians, whether they are two variants or Unitarians. I know, fiction is a very important thing for Christians to believe. Absolutely. But as Muslim as a Muslim, of course, we we have the Quran. Yes, we believe is a revelation from God. Absolutely. And it refers to some of the passages of the Old Testament For example, I mean, there are you see, this is a very huge discussion. Why do we not believe in the crucifixion? How can we differentiate it? In light of in light of New Testament tradition, and the Old Testament, we are aware of these things. I mean, I am

00:49:55--> 00:49:59

as a student, well aware of the fact that the four gospels are unanimous.

00:50:00--> 00:50:45

That Jesus was crucified. And what grounds Do we have as Muslims to reject that? And this is what I am trying to explain, without sounding too skeptical and too negative about the four gospels, as I've already clarified that we wholeheartedly accept many of the teachings that are in the New Testament, yes, at the same time, we do not know enough about the New Testament, to be able to be certain about its authority. We don't know who wrote I mean, of course, there are names given to the gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and john, these names have been given. We don't even know who, which john wrote the gospel. For example, for this day, there are three candidates john, john john of

00:50:45--> 00:51:28

Ephesus, john, the son of liberty, john the presbyter. Okay, Luke, for example, and Matthew and Mark, these names were some of these names are given by Papyrus of propolis, in the second century, early second century, to these documents. So initially, these documents are anonymous documents. And it is very possible that this information came from one source, a lot of people have this theory, the Q document area, that Mark was bordered from Q. And when Mark gave much information to Luke, and, and Matthew, and they expanded on and expanded on the narrative. I mean, there are so many scholarly opinions about this. Oh, there are but of course, back to our simp simple point is we

00:51:28--> 00:52:05

don't have Christianity period. Without authoritative scripture, we might as well go home and do something more useful. If as the Quran says of itself, if you haven't got the standard, there's nothing to talk about. So for us all of this lengthy discussion about well, who wrote Luke, I don't even go there. We've got a hard enough time trying to convince people that what Luke said was right. But if we can't be sure, then we just lose ourselves in brain breaking distractions. And you see, at least at least we have shown today seranthony Yeah, that we as Christians, and Muslims

00:52:06--> 00:52:13

have a lot of agreements that we have a lot of admiration. And, at least in my case, I have a lot of information.

00:52:14--> 00:52:32

Information and admiration from you. And about you. Yeah. So now we're doing what I say I have been, I have been so inspired by some arion thinkers. So good. Thank you. And thank you. And I'll tell you the story. Very funny story.

00:52:33--> 00:52:37

I don't know if it's funny or not, but it was funny for me. I bumped into these, these

00:52:39--> 00:52:55

these historic monuments. Yeah, I happened to be in Old Street. I don't know if you you. If you know, there is a there is a cemetery there called burns Hill. Are you aware of it? No, I didn't know that. This is this is going to interest you. And next time you're in London, perhaps we can

00:52:56--> 00:53:12

go to the cemetery together, or what is so special about the cemetery, there is a place called Old Street in central London, it's very close to Finsbury square. It's the City of London where a lot of the business takes place. And I happened to be there. And you wouldn't imagine

00:53:14--> 00:53:31

a historical Cemetery in such a busy business area. So I saw this old cemetery it looked old To me it stated outside that it was it was stated outside it was it's called bundes Hill Cemetery. I walked in, I walked in and I started looking at some of the old graves, you know, tombs of

00:53:32--> 00:54:22

William Blake was there. Okay, john Bunyan was there. And some of the some of the abolitionists who had campaigned for abolition of slave trade, they were there. But lo and behold, to my surprise, my pleasant surprise or my shock, I found to Phyllis to Phyllis Lindsay's grave there. And amazingly, Thomas, Belgium, Reverend version is also buried in the same same space. And I think wife, the wife of Reverend Belgium was also buried measures. Yeah. And, and and if you happen to be in London next. Yeah, you are. I would love to join you or take you. Yes. Be an honor. It would be fun. Yeah. Well, Carlos, Carlos, make a note of that. That sounds interesting. Bonneville buns Hill is the cemetery.

00:54:22--> 00:54:59

And yeah, Lindsey, as you know, he was a companion of Joseph Priestley. Yes, well, he's a hero of ours. Now there is this downside to Unitarian some of them they gave up belief in Paul was right, Jefferson who said that Paul was the first corruptor of Christianity but I wanted to have a serious talk with him I think he completely misunderstand. So Paul, so you're not having right when you get the One God thing right Unfortunately not. To be honest with you we as Muslims find it very difficult to take policy I mean, if you if those teachings that are to be found in the name of Paul in the New Testament, yeah.

00:55:00--> 00:55:42

They are they are truly Paul's, because a lot of documents are attributed to Paul later on, and there is controversy about it about that, but that the documents that can be with with confidence attributed to him. If those teachings are truly his, then we find it very difficult to believe in believing him as well. Of course, again, there is this is an area we disagree on. Absolutely. I mean, because of these non Israelite ideas that came from Paul, and, and and even john, the author of john, this is where we find it very difficult to reconcile them with the Synoptic tradition. Thank you, gentlemen. We're almost at the hour. Mark. Wow. Thank you for your time. We have many

00:55:42--> 00:55:46

viewers and very good questions, if you don't mind. So

00:55:47--> 00:56:34

there are questions for both. And there are questions also for each individual. So if you can also keep your questions short and sweet. Likewise, also your answers, please. And this question is to both speakers. And Anthony, you can go first, what role will Jesus play or having the feature when he returns according to your Understand? Oh, well, he's the Messiah and the Messiah, by definition is going to rule the world from the throne of David and Jerusalem. That's about as easy as saying that the Queen has a Buckingham Palace in London. This is self evident. If you have any concept of Judaism and the Old Testament, we all know that he is the son of David has to be we all know as

00:56:35--> 00:57:15

Rasheed said so well, that Joseph and Mary Christ did not have a baby Jesus Christ. You know, that's the humorous way of putting it. So in my translation, just doing the second edition, we put Messiah all the time. Mattia, the anointed king, we know that, if you're the anointed king, you're going to rule the world. And self evidently, he's not doing it now if he is doing a rotten job of it. So the paramecium marks the end of the scope of the devil, the devil who is very real as an external fallen angel is going to be banned and put in prison so he can deceive the nation to no longer then we have a better chance of re educating the world. So that's what I will do.

00:57:16--> 00:57:33

Adnan. Okay, I agree with that. So Anthony there that Jesus will return as the Messiah and he will rule will eventually rule from Jerusalem because we believe that he will kill the Antichrist, the Antichrist will be a man with immense

00:57:34--> 00:58:18

supernatural powers, who will come and wreak havoc near the end of times. And one of the reasons Jesus will return is to deal with him as a prophet Mohammed described in very lavish terms as to how Jesus will return to the world. Firstly, Jesus was raised alive, and he is with God since then, and he has been kept alive by God Almighty, again as a miracle and he will descend near the end of times in Damascus Prophet Mohammed, in one of his authentic traditions, he stated that Jesus will descend with two angels, just as he was raised above by angels, he will descend and he will be dressed in a yellow gown, yellowish gown and his hair will be dripping

00:58:19--> 00:58:50

with water or oil, some some some some sort of liquid as if to signify his, his status as the Messiah, the machine, okay, who is anointed, and he will be descending into and angels and he will descend in the city of Damascus. And he will basically correct the error of the cross. Basically, this is what we believe in, of course, the Christians disagree with that, yeah. That he will correct the error of the cross, and he will lift the jizya basically, he will give people two choices either you believe,

00:58:51--> 00:59:05

either you believe in Islam, which which is what he will come back with, he will come as a believer in Islam. Okay, we believe this is our belief, of course, that he will come back as an upholder of the law of Mohammed, just as he was

00:59:07--> 00:59:30

an upholder of the law of Moses, in his first ministry, in the second ministry, he will come to uphold the law of Muhammad, which is not the law of Muhammad, of course, it's the law of God. It's the Sharia law revealed by God in the Quran, he will be upholding that, and he will do the job of dealing with the Antichrist, and he will do that in Jerusalem. So again, we have a lot of correlation. There are a lot of agreements.

00:59:31--> 00:59:59

Same time we have some disagreements. Well, the Antichrist part, I didn't know that that's new to me, and very exciting. We also believe we are classical futurists. We believe in a seven year period at the end of our three and a half years with a great tribulation and a single antichrist, who represents exactly the same sort of idea as you gave us, Rashida. If I could follow up just quickly, brief comment from you. So what is the role of Muhammad exactly in the age to come or this future

01:00:00--> 01:00:00

Your world.

01:00:02--> 01:00:08

The role of Prophet Muhammad has been fulfilled. It was to deliver the Quran to humanity as the final message.

01:00:09--> 01:00:51

There was the Old Testament there was the New Testament and there was the last testament. So believe the Quran to be the last testament from God Almighty God revealed the Quran. Not that we accept the Old Testament as it is today. We don't accept it whole, completely. We do accept parts of it. But this is to simplify things for our Christian brothers and sisters out there that the Quran we believe to be the last message to humanity. And that was his role and he had prophesized about the future. He had made many prophecies, that these things will happen and when these things happen, then wait for the hour. For example, one of the prophecy was that near the end of times, these naked

01:00:51--> 01:01:27

barefooted shepherds, naked barefooted destitute shepherds of the desert, he was specifically talking about the bedwin of Arabia, that when they start to build tall skyscrapers and start to compete with each other in doing so, then the hour is close. And unfortunately, indeed, the hour is close, because the Arabs are now amazingly, the ruling families of the Gulf region, the house of Saud, the ruling family of Kuwait, and Bahrain and Qatar, they all come from bedwin background. Yeah.

01:01:28--> 01:02:11

And the oil emerged in the 50s. And now they are building the tallest skyscrapers in the world. Yeah, there is one in Dubai and there is one 1000 meters tall in Jeddah, which is going to be built very soon. So the I mean, this is one example. There are many other prophecies he made which have come to pass. So we believe that he was just not, you know, making things up rather, he was a very serious, serious credentials. Yes, thank you, sir. Anthony, what are your thoughts on the Quran presenting Jesus as coming into existence, due to the Word of God, as opposed to Jesus actually been the word itself as the trinitarians claim?

01:02:12--> 01:02:52

Well, yes, the capital W, en word in john one. One is simply an imposition on the text, that word would log us in Greek and dabar in Hebrew. It simply doesn't mean a person. So unfortunately, and Rashid would agree with me here, church fathers who were strongly Hellenic, and strongly philosophical, imposed all of their stuff on the Bible. So the public doesn't get a shot. at getting this right, john, one one does not say In the beginning was the capital word. It says, In the beginning was the Word the Word is simply the expression of God's mind. Your word is what you are, you're thinking, exposed and so on. And that word is what Jesus became, Jesus became, sorry, the

01:02:52--> 01:03:32

Word became the enemy putting this right, Jesus is what the Word became not one to one equal with the pre existing word is no person the word until Jesus is supernaturally born. That is classical, Unitarian, biblical, Unitarian view. Was that not to but to both speakers at non First, if Jesus coming into being was by creative action, not by sex, why would any Muslim considered the idea of, of God having a son via a miraculous, biological event? blasphemous?

01:03:34--> 01:04:25

Okay, I don't I don't quite understand the question. Can you repeat that? Why would someone Yes, so we so seranthony most non trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Son of God, by or through a miracle in the womb of Mary, not because God had sex, you know, with with a woman? Well, we don't, we don't. Right. So we both do we agree on that. So why is the idea that Jesus is the Son of God in that way blasphemous to is good? Okay. To clarify this, Jesus being the son of God, in the Israelites sense, we have no problem with that. We don't like to use that terminology today. After the revelation of the Quran, and its own independent terminology. We don't like to use other terminologies to describe

01:04:25--> 01:04:31

the prophets of God or God Himself, for that matter, okay? But in the Israelites sense.

01:04:32--> 01:04:38

The title Son of God is not problematic at all. In fact, the Israelites are called God.

01:04:39--> 01:05:00

In the book of Psalm chapter 80, Psalm 82 verse six, if I'm not mistaken, yeah, where Israelites are called Gods with a lowercase G. What does that actually mean? That means these are people of God. These are people who represent God. Okay, they are upright moral people who are the best

01:05:00--> 01:05:03

To represent God on earth, and that's why they were given this highly

01:05:04--> 01:05:23

honorable title. In that sense, the term Son of God is not problematic if the term Son of God means a messenger or Messiah, a prophet of God, not a problem, not a problem at all. But for us Muslims after the revelation of the Quran, we don't like to use these non Islamic or,

01:05:24--> 01:06:07

you know, Israelite or Judeo Christian terminal terms to describe the prophets of God, because of the confusion that went on for the last, let's say, 2000 years or in the first three centuries of Christianity, that all of that confusion caused by Israelite terms being looked at from a Hellenic lens. And then we ended up with the Trinity. So this is why it's one of those things to do with wisdom that we avoid all. Thank you, Anthony, how do you how do you believe the Bible defines Jesus as I see room for dialogue here? I really think we could come very close. I think what she's saying it's the misuse of the term Son of God as God the Son, that creates a lot of confusion. However,

01:06:07--> 01:06:45

Luke this terribly mistaken, Matthew is terribly wrong. I mean, blasphemous that wrong. If Son of God is not the right term, understand people rejecting it, because it's a straw man idea. You know, God had sex with Mary. It's nothing to do with it. So I would see very good scope for some dialogue here. But I think we could probably come to some agreement. It's by miracle, and the word MacGuffin, you know, you're not in Greek means to cause to come into existence, we're agreeing that the Messiah came into existence in the womb of his mother, which is what all human beings have to do to be human being, in fact, seranthony I would like to add something very quickly, that the Quran actually

01:06:45--> 01:07:16

describes Jesus as the word. Yeah. As the Word of God. In what sense? It is explained, in what sense in the sense that God simply says, Be, and he becomes, it's a miraculous word uttered by God, God, creating power that made Jesus and not only Jesus, in fact, all of us, we are all creation of God. In that sense. We are all words of God, but Jesus was a special creation. Absolutely.

01:07:17--> 01:07:27

Absolutely. I think it's very close agreement. Actually, if we work through this, I don't think there'd be a big difference. I think you Adnan deeply Mary was sinless.

01:07:29--> 01:08:03

We, we have to understand as to what the questioner means by sin, okay, human errors, human errors, just because God has made someone human and they commit human errors. We don't see that as sinful. But if we're talking about deliberately lying, cheating, being a hypocrite committing adultery, things like that, absolutely not. None of the Gods people who have been chosen by God, such as Mary, because Mary is a very, very, very highly regarded person in Islam. In fact, there's an entire chapter in her name in the Quran, Chapter 19.

01:08:04--> 01:08:46

So we cannot imagine marry committing sins, if you understand by sin, adultery, lying, cheating, things like that, no way. You marry, they are human. So they come with human qualities. Right, Anthony? No, we agreed, I think on that we are not Calvinists. We don't think that there's this toasted depravity idea that you're born with, and you pass on genetically. That seems to me, terribly overdone. Calvin is not a friend of ours, because as you know, he was responsible for murdering one of our Unitarian friends because of it. So we I think we all agree there, Mary clearly was a righteous person, she lived well, but she doesn't have to be sinless in some perfect state,

01:08:46--> 01:08:55

which would make a nonhuman entirely, but I actually enlightened to hear what you say about Mary, much of which I did not know. I'll tell you. So I'm interested in that

01:08:56--> 01:09:03

idea. So Anthony comes from the fact that Mary was described as the Mother of God, by the Catholic Church, the autocross.

01:09:05--> 01:09:19

This is why they have to understand Mary in a way that she is completely sinless, in a sense to not commit human errors, as well. And again, this comes from Greek philosophical terms. Hold on

01:09:20--> 01:09:41

an idea or a person that period is caused major problems. Oh, no, it's tragic. the wrong one Catholic priests said that God came to Mary and said, Mary, will you please be my mother? This is we're back to talking nonsense. I'm against talking nonsense. All right. Thank you any good.

01:09:42--> 01:09:59

Rashida, what do you think of the view of Dr. Ali, a tie or a T. Islamic scholar at zaytuna College California, who believes that the four gospels generally preserved the original in jail in jail

01:10:00--> 01:10:44

of Jesus gospel, hope we can do gospel I I have to ask Dr. Mattei as to what he actually means by generally preserved. I also believe that that the Gospels, the four gospels collectively generally preserve some of that this is the caveat, caveat, I would like to add, they're generally preserve some of the teachings of Jesus Christ. No doubt, I'm a believer in that I'm a firm believer in that, that there are definitely teachings of Jesus Christ in the four Gospels. And I uphold that, and I really believe that. So if Dr. uthai means that, then I agree with him. But if he means that the majority of the four gospels have everything accurate about Jesus Christ, then we would have to

01:10:44--> 01:10:59

disagree. Thank you. Anthony, do you think that the Islamic conception of Jesus, apart from the disagreement on the crucifixion is more accurate than the Trinitarian conception?

01:11:01--> 01:11:42

Well, the transcendent conception is quite clearly, idolatrous, because there's only one God, that's what I would start. I cannot assess degrees of confusion. From my point of view, we've got a lot of work to do. One day Jesus will sit us all down, by the way and say, Look, you got that right. But this was a disaster. Now there is a degree of responsibility, very famous text in john 15, that, that I think Rashid will enjoy. Jesus said, If I hadn't come and told you wouldn't be guilty, isn't that marvelous? There's a sliding scale, you cannot be expected to know stuff that you couldn't reasonably know. That opens a hole wider hope that we believe in trillions of billions of human

01:11:42--> 01:12:28

beings, I should say, who lived and died without any knowledge of Muhammad or Jesus. They can't be judged for failing to believe in Mohamad, that's just silly. So john 15. twice, Jesus said, so I'll please make my plea here on the sliding scale idea. I'm not the judge of somebody's heart. I do think Christians are very wrong to be opposing the SHERMER. It's very tragic to say I'm a follower of Jesus, and then proceed to do away with the most important I stress out for me, that is something I'm campaigning to change, I would love to see it change. And you and may God guide you think more and more and more and keep guiding people to the ultimate reality which is yes, that which is God is

01:12:28--> 01:12:50

one God is absolutely one. And this is why this is one of the reasons I truly admire you. You know, and, and I believe, I really pray that there can be more scholars like yourself, within the Christian community who can actually enlighten Yeah, the Christian world as to Yeah, unfortunately, Unitarians have always been a minority. Oh,

01:12:52--> 01:12:55

yeah. Thank you. Sorry.

01:12:56--> 01:13:01

Thank you. Sorry, I'm trying to get through the way you are a very good host calling trying to get in.

01:13:02--> 01:13:13

Because they are very good questions, and we appreciate our viewers from both camps. absol. Thank you very much. If I failed to forward your question, please.

01:13:14--> 01:13:18

I apologize beforehand. So let's try and keep it brief.

01:13:19--> 01:13:25

From for both, gentlemen, Adnan first, please. What happens when we die?

01:13:26--> 01:13:40

When we die, we will be judged according to or in accordance with our actions, our beliefs, if we deliberately rejected truth, knowing well that this is untruth, then we will we are doomed.

01:13:41--> 01:13:50

Our God has given us rational faculties to believe in Him in its pure form, and we will be judged according to our actions. Okay.

01:13:51--> 01:14:31

God has revealed scriptures, he has talked to us the ascent profits, we must follow the universal teachings of those prophets, and follow their path, follow their laws. And once that comes through, and of course, in my view, the Muslim way is the final way is it is the best way. Only Islam can lead to ultimate happiness in this life and in the Hereafter. I understand the Christians disagree with that. And we cherish the fact that we can disagree. But at the same time, of course, ideally, I would like everyone to believe in Islam is such a beautiful faith just like so Anthony would like everyone to be a Unitarian Christian, right?

01:14:33--> 01:14:59

But we cannot have the world as we want it, unfortunately. So we can only pray, people salvation and people's guidance. So I would love to pray for everyone that may god guide us to Islam, all of us and see the light. What about the also the mortal soul doctrine did do you or does Islam mainstream hold to when you die? Your soul goes anywhere or do you sleep? We believe that once our

01:15:00--> 01:15:37

Soul parts our body, our soul is either rewarded or punishment, it starts immediately your questioning starts immediately. So there is this place called the barza. The Berserk is when when you're transferred into another world after you die, and that's where your recompense starts. And then they will be resurrection on the day of judgment when the final account will be done, and you will be either sent to paradise or to Hellfire, depending on your beliefs and your actions is that similar to the Catholic eternal hell, where the wicked will be burn forever and ever. And I don't know how,

01:15:38--> 01:16:04

how Catholic view goes, but the Islamic view is that those who reject God deliberately, having understood the message, having understood the truth and the inability of the message they rejected, and commit crimes and do since then, obviously, they are choosing their own on the choosing the Doom, and they will be doomed and they will be in Hellfire eternally and you disbelievers will deliberate. You have people I mean, we're not talking about

01:16:05--> 01:16:21

people who committed major sins they believed, but they ended up committing sins, they will be eventually forgiven. But those who disbelieve in God and committed polytheism or, for example, started worshipping other gods or other people instead of God. They will not be forgiven by God. Thanks,

01:16:23--> 01:17:01

Anthony. What happens when we die? We are of the conditional immortality school we think that when you die, you're sleeping. Lazarus is dead. Jesus said, Lazarus is sleeping, clarified it, Daniel 12. Two is our key verse. Many of those who are sleeping in the ad modifier, which is the dust land will awake. So when you die, absolutely nothing happens. You're unconscious. So the next moment of consciousness, you'd be in the resurrection of the future at the bottom here. That's the resurrection of all the faithful of all the ages. The second resurrection happened 2000 years later, that's for everybody else. And I agree with Rashid entirely, that it's according to what you

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reasonably could have known if you are deliberately sinning against the light you got, then you don't have much hope at all. I think and I'm hopeful that there are many people who really haven't known enough to be condemned on that scale. But Hebrews chapter 10 says that there is a situation where somebody having known the truth and fully understood it, then he turns his back on that I would say annihilation ism rather than conscious torment is the solution that don't believe in eternal conscious torment for anybody, actually.

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Thank you, Antonia. Mr. Rashid is the non Trinitarian Jesus shirke. hope I pronounced that well shirk. Sh I rk Yeah, sure. Kiss actually polytheism. Okay. Later, crudely, it means polytheism. Okay, it's the non Trinitarian Jesus, that if we believe he was created by God and marry as a great miracle, not by some spiritual sex act, and not because God put DNA in marry. The truth Jesus is a miracle is he created human, similar to Adam and Eve? We see God as his father because he's the one who created him not because of some holy sperm. What would that Jesus be shirk? Why or why not? Okay. Let me very quickly explain what we believe in. We don't believe in any sexual act on the part

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of God or Mary, of course, okay. We believe that the birth of Jesus Christ was a purely miraculous event, okay, if a DNA was planted, or if seed was planted, it is not a miracle. It is a natural act, we can do that today. There are there are procedures where whereby you can actually plant a seed in a womb and have a child, right? We don't believe in that kind of miracle. A miracle means it's a supernatural act, it is beyond human capacity. So the birth of Jesus Christ was a purely miraculous event without any physical biological intervention. So I hope this is clear, right? Very clear with regard to the fact that the Christians believe that Jesus was the Son of God. In that sense, I have

01:19:16--> 01:19:58

no problem with that. I mean, the Christians understand the birth of Jesus in that way. They are open to understand this understanding in that way, but we don't call him the Son of God, even in the Israelite sense, even in the Israelite sense, we don't like to use these terms, because they cause confusion. So we call him a creation of God, a special a special creation of God, a special prophet of God, a special messenger the Messiah, we know him by the title God has given him. So this is what we feel more comfortable with. And his birth in that sense is not shirk, because his birth does not denote or signify his reality with God the Father, like the trinitarians later on, made him equal to

01:19:58--> 01:20:00

God the Father, we don't believe that we believe

01:20:00--> 01:20:39

He is still a creation of God albeit a special creation. But he is the creation of God Almighty. He's not King. Yeah, Anthony? Yes, I agree entirely. In fact, what I've learned this afternoon is interesting, I suspected that that's where the truth would turn out to be. It's an overreaction, if you like, clearly a miracle happen, I would leave it at that. There are people out there who are obsessed with the detail, it doesn't need to be obsessed with. I simply say a miracle occurred in the womb of Mary, nothing whatsoever remotely to do with the sex act, of course. So really, Islam and Christianity are very much on the same page that I would say, we are stuck with the fact not

01:20:39--> 01:21:09

stuck. But we're rejoicing, of course, being a scripture that Jesus talks about the Messiah, the Son of God, as one title, who do you say I am, we say that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, you cannot pull those things apart. So for us to save the site is exactly the same as saying the sound of God. But if that's misunderstood, I can understand people saying we're not going to use it because of the potential misunderstanding. All right, thank you, Anthony. Anthony, from Dr. Bo Branson. On the chat.

01:21:10--> 01:21:27

Let's see you were I think you alluded to the eternal generation, the beginning was beginning. Yes, yes. Okay. His question is a Trinitarian. Of course, why is it a problem to say something has a cause, but is eternally caused

01:21:29--> 01:22:09

soundly cause eternal forgetting, you can't have an eternal beginning. Many Trinitarian scholars, I'm happy to say are agreeing here. Take Millard Erickson, famous Trinitarian author, he doesn't believe in eternal generation, Adam Clark, this is nonsense. I'm back to my language point, don't talk with great respect, Don't talk nonsense to generate needs to bring into existence. Your now is the causative form of you know me, I'm using the modern Greek pronunciation. And to cause somebody to come into existence means they weren't in existence before. It's too difficult. You cannot prove this yourself, your child have to knows that the sun is not the same agency father. So you're making

01:22:09--> 01:22:51

theology a nightmare. And some people reject everything about God, because of the way Christians are trying to explain it, or music better? I don't understand what you could possibly mean by beginningless. Beginning, let's not use that sort of language barrier, that sort of language? Well, I think we'll do better. Rashida, what is your position or Islam in general regarding pre existence that Jesus literally pre existed as an angel of the Lord or liturgy? God, or we have no problem with that? We have no problem with that. Because what is this pre existence actually mean? It means in the knowledge of God, because God is eternally knowledgeable of God knows the past. He knows the

01:22:51--> 01:23:08

present. He knows the future, he is beyond time and space. Okay, transcends all of these limitations. So if, if you mean by pre existent in the golf in the knowledge of God, absolutely, in that sense. So Anthony.

01:23:10--> 01:23:55

I agree with Carlos did I did. So we all existed pre existed. Yeah, in that sense. So we have no problem with that. Okay. And this is why when the Trinitarian is described the doctrine as follows that Jesus Christ is co eternal, and co equal, I mean, co eternal. I mean, if we explain it in that way, the way I did, then it's not a problem. But co equal can never be true, never be true. Right? So it is Jesus eternal in the knowledge of God. Absolutely. Not. God is eternally knowledgeable. He knew what to do in in our time and space in our dynamics in our dimensions, that is perfectly fine. No problem. Now. All right, thank you. Let's see.

01:23:57--> 01:24:19

Let's see, Anthony, what do you think about the Jewish law, stating that the Messiah cannot die before completing his mission? Now, I asked the question or the exact biblical reference, but I'm not sure. Are you familiar with that Jewish logo? I don't know what they're referring to they have to see that.

01:24:21--> 01:25:00

On a slightly slightly related, I think, actually closely related topic, much of what we circled biblically, libertarians are saying is highly supported by what I would call the best scholarship. I want to tell our audience out there if you want the best technical material, you go to Oxford and Cambridge, Yale and Harvard, those people can be wrong. They're not infallible when you lecture on the Trinity as the Regis professor of divinity Dr. Did, much of what he's going to say is likely to be right. James Dunn, I want people to read James Dunn who after a career of discussing Christology wound up with the following statement in the

01:25:00--> 01:25:01

Bible Jesus is not the hour.

01:25:03--> 01:25:45

Not Jehovah is not God the Son. Hallelujah. We're thrilled that because he's a famous name. So read James Dunn and many other scholars who are simply confirming that it's the Anthony, do you think James Dunn actually eventually became a Unitarian? Oh, I do on that statement. I hold him to it. I put him in one of his final works. What did early Christians believe? Something like that? That's it. That's a short book. That's what I'm quoting verbatim. Jesus was a shamar reciting the Shema is the most exciting thing for us. It's a key point because Jesus asked what is the most important why don't talk about secondary issues here. What is the commandment You mustn't get wrong, is exactly

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what the Christian church chickens a hole got wrong. That is a very serious mistake. Right? The book is that the first Christians worship Jesus highly recommended and Dr. Dunn died recently I believe he did. So did Larry or Tato, who also said some interesting Unitarian sounding statements. So Alright, let's in the conclusion, just to quickly address, sir, if you allow in the conclusion of this particular book, James Dunn states that the Christian the mainstream Christian churches have become Jesus orators is like, the term idolaters is used. Yes, you use the term, Jesus all it is at the expense of God the Father, so they have what's called the father aside and worshiping Jesus

01:26:32--> 01:27:12

Christ Jesus, you know, it's a good term. It's a powerful term. Actually, I want to say this, the excitement I'm getting from talking to you is, I now see there are other nerds as we call them, myself, any audience who are concerned in an extraordinary way to get at the truth of things, right. There are equally keen nerds in the Islamic world. And I'm meeting on here, we have an awful lot in common. You see, we've read the same stuff, haven't we? Absolutely. And I'm so glad that we had this dialogue and I want to have it for so long. All right, thank you. Um, a couple more questions. Rashid, is that okay? Yeah, no,

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Anthony, thank you for your time.

01:27:16--> 01:27:32

Rasheed, are there any historical proves that Jesus was not crucified? If not, can we say that this was a miracle? That is his resurrection? I guess a miracle cannot have proofs or be explained

01:27:34--> 01:27:35

that Jesus was not crucified

01:27:37--> 01:28:21

that the question whether that's sorry, let's take two are there any historical proves Yeah, that he was not crucified. Let's stick to that okay. The problem is now, how do you define the term historical proof? Okay, I am a historian by profession my degree and my, my, my postgraduate was in history and the way Western scholarship sees history and historiography is not necessarily how believers see their history in their respective scriptures, right. So if you are using that particular lens, the western skeptical historiographical lens, then Jesus, to some people didn't even exist, unfortunately, okay. But we were not that extreme, right? We believe we existed, it is

01:28:21--> 01:28:23

very difficult to prove something

01:28:25--> 01:29:07

about Jesus Christ life, purely depending on the New Testament, or the Quran, for that matter, I'm being very consistent here. We cannot use the Quran as a historical, speaking in western terms, source to describe the life of Jesus Christ and likewise for the New Testament, okay? A New Testament is a historical no doubt, when it comes to the culture of first century God or the second century, Palestine or other regions, for that matter where the gospels are written. Historians do use these documents but when it comes to the miracles described in the gospels, Jesus feeding 1000s of people and you know, saints, and

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dead bodies walking around in the city of Jerusalem after the crucifixion and all that they don't accept that, okay. Likewise, to prove or disprove the crucifixion, purely on historical terms. It's not it's not it's not easy. It's a pure it's a it's purely a matter of matter of belief. If we believe our respective scriptures to be true, and they are true revelations from God, then we must put our trust in them. Okay, as far as historical evidence, any archaeological any, let's say material evidence, do we do we find the True Cross as many people found? You know, in Victorian, sorry, not Victorian, in Tudor England, it was thought that there were so many pieces of truth. You

01:29:53--> 01:29:59

could you could build a vessel from them, right a ship from them. So how far do we go with historical data?

01:30:00--> 01:30:42

is a good question. Yep. Thank you. Anthony, you want to comment on that? Well, no, I think he put that very well. I am convinced that Luke particularly as I said, he wrote more than New Testament in Greek and anybody else. The guy's a very clever liar. Oh my goodness, if that's wrong, if Jesus didn't rise from the dead, he's done a superbly piece superbly good piece of con artistry. For me. I don't get that impression any more than I look at Russia here. I'm not looking at this man as lying about what he believes he's not. He's perfectly genuine. I may not agree with everything that he's come through. But Luke is absolutely transparent. He's a brilliant linguist, a brilliant teacher,

01:30:42--> 01:31:15

his Greek is impeccable. Why in the world, would he bother writing all that stuff? If you knew it was wrong? And he was, he was there, by the way, I wasn't there. He could talk to Mary. I couldn't. So why would I believe myself on this thing, rather than Luke just makes no sense at all to me. All right, for both the Quran actually acknowledges that, you know, that it appeared to themselves they thought that it happened. Yeah. And the fact that it appeared to them so yeah, the Quran does indirectly implicitly acknowledged.

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The, the notion that Yeah, did come to understand that, Okay, come to believe that. Okay, whether it happened or not, is something the Quran Did you know, the Quran clearly denies the crucifixion, but people did come to believe that it appeared to them. So

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Anthony, how could the Bible be divine inspiration from God? If it was written by humans, and there is no proof that it was Jesus's own words, but that of his followers? Well, I'm taking my cue from Jesus, He is the most Bible oriented person there is. He works out of Scripture that he had, he doesn't get into well, who wrote this and how and why? He simply quoted the Scripture. I see God put his approval on Jesus, guess what he raised him from the dead? How many people do you know been resurrected from the dead? Not many. God put his approval on his son from my angle. And what he taught then is true, because God approved of what he did by raising him from the dead would be my

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answer. Again, you have nothing to talk about. No discussion. If there's no scripture, there's no Qur'an you believe in? If there's no scripture you believe in, you're wasting your time. Go and do something more useful. Thank you, for both Rasheed. First, will the Messiah live forever? Jesus when He returns? Do some do some Muslims believe that he will eventually die after he returns? Yes, we believe that Jesus when He returns because he hasn't died, he will return he will get married. He will rule

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by the law of Islam. And then he will eventually die having ruled having established or peace and justice. And there is a space dedicated to him in Medina where the prophet of Islam is buried. Okay with two of his companions, two of his most important disciples, Abu Bakr and Omar, there is space dedicated to Jesus Christ, when he returns when he dies, he will be buried next to the prophet of Islam, Prophet Muhammad in the same century. And this is the level of honor we give to Jesus Christ. Yeah, he's one of the mightiest messengers of God, as far as we are concerned. Yes. Anthony. Yes. In our in our scriptural texts, the book of Revelation is very important for us, obviously, it's a

01:33:43--> 01:33:57

composite of 450 allusions to the Old Testament, simply Hebrew Bible in a new form. Luther said, I want the public to hear this, I quote, The Book of Revelation is not a Christian book,

01:33:58--> 01:34:36

I hope you listen to we'll give that some thought. What the book itself says if you remove words from the book, you're going to be cursed with the curses in the book, if you add to it, terrible things will happen. So the book of Revelation says that Jesus was will rule and rent for 1000 years, so he's going to be very old when he finally dies. No, the idea of an immortal person having achieved immortality by a resurrection, in our case at the Second Coming, death is out of the question. That's the mortality we gain it only God the Father has immortality. innately. Jesus gained it by his perfect obedient son, we hope to attain immortality in the future resurrection, the

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resurrection of the just Luke 1414. I think beyond that, there's no question of dying. If you're immortal by resurrection, you don't die anymore. But that's a stark difference clearly. Thank you, Rashid, according to your understanding or that of the Islamic view you represent, who is the suffering servant of Isaiah 42 and

01:35:00--> 01:35:01

And forward.

01:35:03--> 01:35:54

Sorry, repeat the question, Who is the suffering servant of Isaiah. So in Isaiah 42 to chapter 53, which is very important for Chris, just a very interesting question. And it would it would require us as Anthony would agree with me it would require a lecture of possibly few hours. Okay to give you a short answer, you know, due to Isaiah is a very interesting area. And a lot of the book of Isaiah is actually patchwork if you were to take some scholarly opinions, opinions of scholars like Christopher north, for example, who had specialized in the book of Isaiah in particular, the second, the second part of Isaiah from 39 onwards, Isaiah 39 onwards, which is regarded as deutero. Isaiah

01:35:54--> 01:36:38

second Isaiah. Okay, Isaiah 42, I think is a messianic prophecy, okay. And I believe firmly that it refers to a prophet of Islam, because of the references there in to Arabia, verse number 11, in chapter 42, clearly states that let the villages of Qaeda rejoice, lead the people a wilderness, sing a new song, for let them sing from the top of mountains, right. Qaeda was the second son of Ishmael according to the book of Genesis, right? And he was a direct ancestor of Prophet Muhammad proximately number 60. In genealogy, right. So this was a reference to a messianic figure who will come up with a new law for the Gentiles, right? Of course, Christians, a lot of Christian thinkers,

01:36:38--> 01:37:01

and scholars believe that this refers to Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ had nothing to do with Qaeda. So that's a separate prophecy, coming to 5353. Looking at Jewish commentaries, and even reading Christopher Knotts treatment of Isaiah 53, in particular, he puts down a lot of opinions of Jewish rabbis, some some of the Jewish rabbis, they they understood

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the suffering seven to be the tribe of Israel, the Israelites in general, some of them, they said, this was prophet Jeremiah, okay. None of them actually used it the way Paul used it later on, to connect it to the incident of crucifixion. And I mean, to be fair, if we were to take Isaiah 53, as a serious reference to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, then what do we do with Psalm 91? Psalm 91, which directly refers to Jesus Christ. And the New Testament confirms that, and it talks about Jesus being rescued not even being kicked by a stone, he will be raised up by the by the angels, and God will protect him God, He will pray to God, He will call upon God and God will respond to his call,

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he will not be scratched. I mean, I'm paraphrasing the chapter, Psalm 91. So we have to be consistent. If we look at Isaiah 53 as a reference to crucifixion, then we have to also look at Psalm 91. Which, which seems to, which seems to be contradicting directly what Isaiah 53 purports to be telling us. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I hadn't heard that before. Yeah. All right. Um,

01:38:15--> 01:38:28

let's see, Anthony, if to be get replies, as he said, A coming into existence, then why doesn't it also implied that Jesus had a human father?

01:38:30--> 01:38:33

Well, because the story is that he didn't have a human father.

01:38:34--> 01:38:51

That's not so hard. It's still a coming into existence again, now is the cause to come into existence. It is said of fathering. And Matthew 120 is badly translated in our many of our Bibles. It says there that what is the garden fathered

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in Mary's womb is from the Father by Holy Spirit. The other meaning then of you now is to bear a child of a woman that has that meaning to so maribo child, what was fathered in her womb, brought into existence cause to come into existence? Well, your child of two should understand if your cause to come into existence, you were not in existence before, you cannot pre exist yourself. I hope our audience will think that you cannot be older than your own grandfather, your own father. We're playing with the very foundation of language. I'm tempted to talk about transgender. I'm against the idea of transgender. Don't mess with simple language, you're going mad if you do it. So let's stay

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with vocabulary that we all understand. And I think we'll do much better. All right for Mr. Rashid and yourself, but first Mr. Rashid, what does how does the Quran define a soul? Yes, good point. That's a very interesting question. And the Quran actually acknowledges this question. It stays out of the limitations on regime. Yes. aluna ganja row. They asked you all Muhammad about

01:40:00--> 01:40:48

The spirit the roof, okay? Tell them it is from God. Basically, God simply does not give any details as to the true nature of spirit, what does it actually mean? He simply gives a gives an answer that tell them it is from God. And that's all they need to know without giving too many metaphysical details on the nature of spirit here, whether it's human spirit, or any of the spirit for that matter, right. So God simply says, Just believe in it. It is there it is from God, rather like that. That's a nice answer. Anthony, how does the Bible define a soul soul is not the same as spirit I would make that point. nefesh in Hebrew means a person, a self, God is oneself the Islamic people

01:40:48--> 01:41:32

would love that God is said to be Yahweh Yoav, I said to be one single self 1000s upon 1000s attend. I want to mention Dr. Worcester, in Britain, or in America worchester. To me, Wooster in 1825, he was writing about the singular personal pronouns for God, it's an overwhelmingly good argument for God being one. So having said that, a nephesh is a soul a person, your dog is also a self and a soul. A living creature, spirit is not quite the same. Spirit is God in His operational presence and power, extending himself in various ways. I like the answer that actually gave, get on with it. Spirit is the energy coming from God. It created the flowers and the bees and the birds and all

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that, and it creates spirit and truth as Jesus said, john 663, the words underline the words 1000 times, the words that I speak to you are spirit of life, what is the Christian church done? gotten rid of the words of Jesus at the most important command? What? I wouldn't risk it.

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All right up one last one. I think before I exhaust both of you, thank you so much for your time. Anthony and Rashid. What one last one and Rashid if you could please. What is the Quranic view of heaven, please? Okay, the Quranic view of Heaven is to put it in simple terms. Anyone who passes the test of this life, does well by his belief, believes the right things, as taught by God, Almighty God has given us the intellect to understand what is right and what is wrong. And if we end up believing the right things, and doing the right thing, then, paradise Most importantly, the pleasure of God is

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a response to that or a reward for that. And then with that comes paradise. So Paradise is a place which is unimaginable, unimaginable in its beauty, and its boundaries. There is not an eye that has seen what is in Paradise, there is not a nose that has smelt, what is there where there is not an ear that has heard what is in paradise. So, there are things that are named in Paradise, but the reality is only known to God and the dwellers of paradise. So once we get there, we have been told that there is immense pleasure there are rivers of milk and honey, there are palaces of, you know, gems and gold. So all these things that are pleasing to human soul in this world will be given in

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abundance so long as you restrain yourself against polytheism against this belief and sin.

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Thank you, Anthony. What is the Christian New Testament view specifically of heaven? Well, heaven in the Bible, as a cousin of mine said at Cambridge many years ago, j. t. Robinson, with whom I do not agree on many things, but he said, heaven in the Bible is nowhere the destination of the dying. So get rid of the word Heaven, we're going to inherit the earth we inherit the earth terra firma, that Psalm 37, five times tell your neighbors to challenge the local pastor bless it, or the meat, they're going to inherit the earth this planet renewed. Otherwise, I agree totally with our sheet. I will say humorously that he got awfully close to quoting Paul right there in one teacher. So Paul

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cannot be entirely wrong on that point. Absolutely not. No, absolutely. I I admire a lot of things, Paul. Absolutely. Okay, well, we'll wrap it up. Thank you so much to both for your time. Again, to find out more for Muslim friends out there. Yeah. Actually, I'll give you the last word to each. Mr. Rashid Yana. Give us your last word, please. I have a lot to say about sir Anthony and his legacy.

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And he's, he's a very important figure in the Christian world. He may not be as appreciated as he should have been by mainstream Christianity. But I can I can assure you that Muslims admire you

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I know many, many Muslims who have read your book, and they have taken immense interest in it. They have learned a lot from it. They appreciate your honesty and your integrity and the fact that you uphold a very ancient tradition which goes back to Jesus Christ absent father is purity of his message is concerned. And the only difference as we, you know, say as Muslims that the only difference between the Unitarian Christians and Muslims is that the claws Muhammad Rasul Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of God, you already believe in La ilaha illAllah we believe we believe there is a proclamation of faith we have in Islam, there is no god worthy of worship except Allah

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and Muhammad is His Messenger. Yes, you have already you already believe in the first clause, there is no one worthy of worship except God.

01:45:49--> 01:45:59

Right? The only bit that you have not yet got to crossing is Mohammed Rasul Allah, and which is, which is something interesting, but I, again,

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I believe that you have done great service to your faith and to your people. In explaining the true message of Jesus Christ and you you uphold an ancient tradition, and possibly you uphold the most ancient traditional Christian tradition and the word Trinitarian is I think we burn late trinitarianism as we know it today is the doing of the fourth century. Okay, you are, you are the first Christians

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who believe in the message as it was preached by Jesus. And I would love to see you, Anthony, when you happen to be in London next, by the way, I don't know if you know. Oh, if you remember that. I wanted to see you when you came to London last Really? Yeah, you you you had a dinner. Sorry, not dinner, I think. lunch or breakfast.

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Yeah. And you had messaged me to come and see you there. Unfortunately. I got. I got occupied on that day. And I didn't, I did go. I did go to the hotel. But you had already left, unfortunately. So

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yeah, I was very disappointed. But I hope I can see you anytime soon, possibly in the US or if you happen to be in the UK. Yeah. I would love to see you. And when I show you my library, because I have Yes, I have a huge collection of Unitarian works. Good. I have works by Thomas Belgium. I have Yes. Your favorite theorists Lindsey. Lindsey, a mother works by Joseph Priestley. I've even Samuel crock clocks. Scripture doctrine is wonderful. That's a very famous, yeah. And other things like that on this notion, right? Yeah. Andrews norine. is unbelievable. You can easily refer. Yes, even Christians. Yeah, me. And I enjoy the history. Everything they

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tell us this, remember sent him the paper that I did this recently, a couple of weeks back from Wilson, you know, the Harvard specialists. He says exactly what you're saying Christianity became ruined by a mixing of Hellenism with the Bible. Yes. So send that to you. And before I finish, I would like to invite all the Muslims in particular, and Christians in general, you have to read sir Anthony's book, the doctrine of the Trinity, Trinity, Christianity self.

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fascinated, you will be Yeah, you will find a lot of good information in there. Thank you. All right, thank you. Thank you sheet. And you have the Shahada. And we have john 17, three, this is eternal life that they may know you. So this is Jesus, the Son of God praying to his garden father, says you father are the only true God and to believe that he is the Messiah, the Christ, that was sent or commissioned by that one God of Israel. Thank you so much to both of you again. Thank you to YouTube like to find out like Mr. Rashid so graciously said about our books or literature here, here are others. In our book section, the God of Jesus by Keegan Chandler's very, I hear popular as well.

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Another read next. Yes. Thank you, thank you and other books about the kingdom of God. That is why Jesus was sent was commissioned that look for 43 years, Anthony, keep preaching so that one particular logic goes out and thank you, everyone. I'm sorry if I did not get your question in, but maybe next time. Thank you so much. Thank you. Good evening, see Rashid.